Dating other femmes exes: what do you think?

[*Anya*]

I have a friend- not on this site-that had a recent experience that got me thinking about this topic. I could not find an existing thread about it.

Her ex-girlfriend and my friend ran in the same real life circle as another woman that they both knew. They were not friends but did know each other to say hi and to chat about superficial things and happened to frequently attend the same activities and parties.

My friend and her girlfriend broke up after a one-year relationship. My friend started going out again a couple of months after the break-up and the woman that she knew and her ex blatantly flirted in front of her at a party. My friend was truly crushed.

I honestly did not know what to say to her (other than to empathize with her feelings) as it would never have been something that I personally would have done. I avoid a friend's (even an acquaintance's) ex out of respect for, lack of a better phrase: femme sisterhood. It just does not feel right to me personally.

What do you feel about this? Is it OK because the couple were broken up? Is there a respectable amount of time that should pass before you, as a femme, flirt with or date a friend's ex in front of another femme sister-even if not you are not close friends?

Does it matter?

Is it different online vs. real life?

Your thoughts?

[Gráinne]

Back when I was "straight", I had a rule that I didn't date anyone connected with a friend (unless it was some kind of fix-up). That included siblings and exes. I think the same rule applies to me now. Friends come before dates.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I personally wouldn't date Medusa's ex or Julie's ex or Pinkie Pie's ex because I have a particular kind of relationship with them and other women in my life that ties them to me via my mushy parts. That's an off limits clear boundary that I have for myself.



I don't think it's wrong if you flirt with X who broke up with U and then it happens to be you run into X at Whole Pay checks and there's some flirtation and cruising. Flirting is just that.

I feel we (general) know what is right or wrong and if it feels odd or off then it probably is.


It's a code of ethics a person has to have, ethics vary by person so my ethics aren't going to be the same as X, Y & Z's but they WILL be similar to June's, Julie's, Pancho's, Crystal's or Kens..

[LaneyDoll]

As typical for me, I am going against the grain...

Riley and I met because of a mutual friend. They were dating; she and I were friends. He and I barely spoke b/c we do not live in the same city/state-actually none of us did. Their relationship ended and she moved on to a new relationship. He and I became better friends and eventually ended up together.

I am not saying it is right or wrong. But, love happens. And I believe that the further we are from the mainstream, the harder it is for us to find someone. If those in my local community had an absolute hands-off rule regarding an ex, we would all be single. It is unreal how hard it is to find a partner who is gay AND into D/s. One or the other is not easy but add the two and you really increase the difficulty.

We have yet to run into his ex. She is no longer friends with her, by her choice, and I am not taking away from her right to feel betrayed.

I think that there are a huge amount of variables that come into play...

~How long were they together? One month is a lot different from one year.

~Who broke up with who and why? If things ended b/c they just simply did not mesh that is one thing.

~How long have they been apart? Again, one month is a lot different from one year.

~How close were the separate friendships? If Femme W and Femme X were childhood friends that is much different than Femme Y and Femme Z who do not have an extensive history.

:sparklyheart:

[Gráinne]

I should amend my answer that one possible exception would be if my friend went out on one or two dates with someone, and they didn't hit it off and decided to remain friends. Then it might not be so awkward, especially if friend says "I think you and Date might be great together". But an ex from a long term relationship? That falls under the "don't" category.

And as usually happens, there's a lot of "it depends" situations as LaneyDoll points out. So it's a situational thing.

[macele]

way back when i was stupid (i still can't believe how stupid i was. and the worst mistake i've ever made in regards to relationships.), i had a relationship with a friends girlfriend. they had broken up, but still, don't do it. i told my friend that i was talking to her ex, ... she said it was ok, but it wasn't. if you want to keep that persons voice in your life, a friendly voice, ... don't go with their ex. i regret it. i was wrong. i was stupid.

this may be a different topic all together, but i think ego causes us to be stupid lol.

and i might add, online is no different from in person. not in my used-to-be stupid opinion.

[Toughy]

I avoid a friend's (even an acquaintance's) ex out of respect for, lack of a better phrase: femme sisterhood. It just does not feel right to me personally.

What do you feel about this? Is it OK because the couple were broken up? Is there a respectable amount of time that should pass before you, as a femme, flirt with or date a friend's ex in front of another femme sister-even if not you are not close friends?

Does it matter?

If this feeling is prevalent, perhaps this is the reason so many femmes say they can't find a butch to date. Also why a butch can't find a femme to date. This is a small community.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I think online it's a bit different if sally and Susie were hot and heavy for 3 months, and then they "break" up then Suzie start chatting up Sunny why should there be an issue?

That kind of drama is odd to me, if Suzie and Sunny meet in r/t and start "dating" Sally should just move on/ use ignore feature.

[gaea]

In terms of "close" friends of mine I would not date their exes EVER....and that would be to count those femme's in my top 10 or so.

On the flip side of this.....if we honored the sister code for everyone then there would be so many single butches and femme's out there and that would just seem a little bit silly.

I personally have seen in my community largely due to the fact that it is small.....so and so dated roughly 200 people ( i know exaggerating a bit, well maybe not lol) in any case my point being why is it not ok to date and or flirt?

Online vs real life ? is there a difference? we are all real people online, at least i would like to think so anyway.

over the years it happens more often than not.......people you may know dating an ex of yours and or you dating an ex of an ex of an ex ....

*you* as in a general statement and not anyone specific.

this is a *sticky* situation one in which I believe may actually cut people off from someone they connect with.

[princessbelle]

Nope, wouldn't do it.

My femme sister's relationship is way more important to me than dating. Of course i mean IF i were single.

Just as other's have said, when it's a close bonding of friendship, that is a boundary i would never cross.

No right or wrong answer. Just personal preference.

[QueenofSmirks]

... They were not friends but did know each other to say hi and to chat about superficial things and happened to frequently attend the same activities and parties...



A few month's after someone's breakup, if I know the person well enough to even know about their relationship, then no, I probably wouldn't blatently flirt with their ex in front of them if they were going to be bothered by it.

As far as dating goes - everyone has a different opinion on what is a "respectable" amount of time, and details are important and should be taken into consideration. If someone is a mere acquaintance, we happen to hang in the same circle, but we're not friends, then I likely don't feel a "sisterhood" with that person, so that isn't going to be taken into consideration. Maybe she's a raving lunatic that doesn't deserve so much care and concern about her breakup, who knows. I'm not saying this is the case with your friend, I'm merely saying that most people behave based on all of the information they know at the time. So, without knowing all the details, I'm not 100% sure what I would do, but I can tell you that if I avoided dating every ex of every acquaintance online or in real life, then virtually everyone would be off limits. We're a small community, and at my age (mid-40's), we've all been around the block a few times. I think I probably have acquaintances via all of my exes. Perhaps we're defining "acquaintance" differently. :: shrug ::

[LaneyDoll]

this is a *sticky* situation one in which I believe may actually cut people off from someone they connect with.

Exactly. Riley and I have been together for almost a year. Yes, we met b/c of her. But, I would not trade this past year for anything.

:sparklyheart:

[gaea]

Also id like to say .....as femme's

Who are we to begrudge an "ex" a possible connection and or "date" and or "flirting"

I would not want to be denied that ability Im sure as heck not going to deny anyone else that especially an "ex", people become exe's for various reasons and what not's, does that mean then that NEITHER one should ever date just because they may know someone who knows someone who knows someone else?

I guess Im just living in reality as well as a very small B/F community.

[macele]

have i ever told you all that i do not read the directions. ooo gosh, it's the femme zone! my bad.

still, don't do it.

[gaea]

have i ever told you all that i do not read the directions. ooo gosh, it's the femme zone! my bad.

still, don't do it.

although it is the femme zone yes, personally i see nothing wrong with those of the butch persuasion responding here.

[JustJo]

I have very mixed feelings on this one. As others have said, this is a small community. If we don't date each other's exes we won't be dating much of anyone.

For me personally, I wouldn't date the ex of a very close friend, but I would date the ex of an acquaintance in real life or someone I know in a cursory way from online only.

Having said that, I think it's essential to keep other people's feelings in mind. We wouldn't want our ex doing the "wave it in your face" thing to us....so let's not do it to each other. Honestly, I don't put the responsibility for that on the new partner or prospect though...I put that responsibility on the ex.

[cinnamongrrl]

I think.... just say NO...especially if you value the friendship. There is an unspoken friend code...it exists in the straight world too.....

[*Anya*]

Forgive me for snipping some parts of your posts but I think these parts highlight how I look at it and many of your feelings.

Length of time counts- together a month online and not in real life? Very different than a long-term one in real life.

Blatantly flirting and "rubbing it in the nose" of the ex who so clearly was not over him or her? Different than being gentle with someone's feelings and showing some discretion.

Clearly deciding if the new relationship worth the loss of an actual friend.

Someone that has a habit of dating 200 people- that was not the case of my friend but do not think that is relevant as much as the length of time of the serious relationship-not casual and very monogamous!

Bottom line, it sounds, if I am reading all of you correctly-everyone has their own boundaries and what is right for them.

I still never would. But that is me. I treat other femmes exactly as I would like to be treated, regardless if they live by another code or not.

I would never EVER date the ex of a Heart/Sister Friend. Not unless they were dead of natural causes. I told her I was dating H, and she just fell apart. She wasn't mad at me, but she wasn't over him either.

So, my point here is, be gentle with the feelings of others as well. If there hasn't been a lot of time go by, I wouldn't do a lot of PDA, etc. Not all exes are bad people, they just didn't work out.

I personally wouldn't date Medusa's ex or Julie's ex or Pinkie Pie's ex because I have a particular kind of relationship with them and other women in my life that ties them to me via my mushy parts. That's an off limits clear boundary that I have for

I feel we (general) know what is right or wrong and if it feels odd or off then it probably is.


It's a code of ethics a person has to have, ethics vary by person so my ethics aren't going to be the same as X, Y & Z's but they WILL be similar to June's, Julie's, Pancho's, Crystal's or Kens..



We have yet to run into his ex. She is no longer friends with her, by her choice, and I am not taking away from her right to feel betrayed.

I think that there are a huge amount of variables that come into play...

~How long were they together? One month is a lot different from one year.

~Who broke up with who and why? If things ended b/c they just simply did not mesh that is one thing.

~How long have they been apart? Again, one month is a lot different from one year.

:sparklyheart:

I should amend my answer that one possible exception would be if my friend went out on one or two dates with someone, and they didn't hit it off and decided to remain friends. Then it might not be so awkward, especially if friend says "I think you and Date might be great together". But an ex from a long term relationship? That falls under the "don't" category.

And as usually happens, there's a lot of "it depends" situations as LaneyDoll points out. So it's a situational thing.

way back when i was stupid (i still can't believe how stupid i was. and the worst mistake i've ever made in regards to relations, they had broken up, but still, don't do it. i told my friend that i was talking to her ex, ... she said it was ok, but it wasn't. if you want to keep that persons voice in your life, a friendly voice, ... don't go with their ex. i regret it. i was wrong.

and i might add, online is no different from in person. not in my used-to-be stupid opinion.

In terms of "close" friends of mine I would not date their exes EVER....and that would be to count those femme's in my top 10 or so.

Online vs real life ? is there a difference? we are all real people online, at least i would like to think so

[LaneyDoll]

I had a relationship end a few years ago. It was in October/November. She began seeing someone else in November/December. The person was someone I was friends with.

Yes, I was hurt. Yes, I felt betrayed.

But, as time passed, I realized that what they had was far more suiting then what the ex and I had. They were really happy together-moreso than the ex and I were able to be.

Sometimes who we are with is right for us at that moment. Then the moment ends and both people have to move on. I would hate to feel that I was the person standing in the way of someone else's happiness-especially as a "friend."

:sparklyheart:

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't run into these issues in real life, if my ex is on here I'm going to assume they're gonna be grown and self edit and not involve all of BFP. It's unfair to drag your (general) community through muck cause your (general) ex has moved on.

In real life stuff like this doesn't come up for me, unless it's the ex husbrat and even then I can call the law.

[Rockinonahigh]

I'm going to put my $.02 worth in hear.Several years ago I dated someone I met on line who lives only an hour from me,we got along great for quite a while,untill I found out quite by accident she had had a long realtionship with a butch buddy of mine ten years or so back.At first it was a huge blow up from my now x friend(not over this) as I got handed all the crap that ended theire relationship,wich was a lot of old dry crap that both were responsable for.L (not hear) had long moved on from this but B (not hear) was still chewing the bone even tho she was in a fine relationship at the moment.It was totaly by accident that B saw us together at a drag show at the local hang out..B grabed me by the collor then proceded to drag me into the bathroom to give me the low down.I simply told her to let it go its been ten years and why are you still bellowing like a stuck cow about something long past.He couldnt even anser me on that question.I mean how long dose it take for people to let go of a suposedly past broken relationship?This is something I find a lot in dateing or meeting someone that they cant let go of whats done and over...I refuse to have a gost of past relationships in my current relationship,no mater how hard anyone trys u cant live up to the past.U can bet the other person has moved on a long time ago..I cant figure it out.It makes me feel like im not good enough,I try to understand but finaly I quit chaseing what is unaccesable.

[DapperButch]

although it is the femme zone yes, personally i see nothing wrong with those of the butch persuasion responding here.

With all due respect, I do. Anya asked this of her femme sisters specifically. I like the idea that we have the option to request to have conversations with only "like Ids". That is the sole reason I have not responded in this thread. THIS is am responding to because it is important to me this preference remains an option on this site

[The_Lady_Snow]

Rockin you're a better person than I, let some mother fucker grab me by the collar cause they think in their mind they still have rights to their EX head. That's down right insane right there!

I see this a lot in hetero break ups:|

[easygoingfemme]

I think it totally depends on the circumstances.

I have some ex's who it totally wouldn't bother me if a friend dated. I'd be psyched if they made each other happy.

I have others who I would be totally crushed about should that happen.
I'd expect a friend to ask me before making any move in that direction.

As far as me dating a friends ex it would depend on all the same points. I'd generally go with the side of no way. However, if it was a casual short relationship and in well into the past I might ask her how she'd feel about it.

[*Anya*]

Rockin you're a better person than I, let some mother fucker grab me by the collar cause they think in their mind they still have rights to their EX head. That's down right insane right there!

I see this a lot in hetero break ups:|

I agree with this. Someone having a fresh break-up of a month or two is quite different than a 10-year break-up! Not to mention the battery of grabbing!

That is a call to :police: !

[gaea]

I have a friend- not on this site-that had a recent experience that got me thinking about this topic. I could not find an existing thread about it.

Her ex-girlfriend and my friend ran in the same real life circle as another woman that they both knew. They were not friends but did know each other to say hi and to chat about superficial things and happened to frequently attend the same activities and parties.

My friend and her girlfriend broke up after a one-year relationship. My friend started going out again a couple of months after the break-up and the woman that she knew and her ex blatantly flirted in front of her at a party. My friend was truly crushed.

I honestly did not know what to say to her (other than to empathize with her feelings) as it would never have been something that I personally would have done. I avoid a friend's (even an acquaintance's) ex out of respect for, lack of a better phrase: femme sisterhood. It just does not feel right to me personally.

What do you feel about this? Is it OK because the couple were broken up? Is there a respectable amount of time that should pass before you, as a femme, flirt with or date a friend's ex in front of another femme sister-even if not you are not close friends?

Does it matter?

Is it different online vs. real life?

Your thoughts?

Perhaps In your question i may need some clarification, you say your friend and her former partner broke up and after a few months witnessed the ex "flirting" with someone she knew however wasn't necessarily friends with....hopefully I followed this correctly...

If the above is correct

Why does the femme code apply to the "person" your friend barely knew?

And why would your friend be upset that the ex is moving on is not your friend also moving on? Is not your friend also dating? If she is how is that different?

I will give you an in real life example of a situation between two people I know, the butch has dated several women in my community she was with my friend for a year it didn't work out, the butch immediately began dating however begrudge my friend who is femme the right to date didn't believe she should and what nots and then tried to pull the card that the ex should not date anyone she knows and in my little community that is basically impossible and that would render both my friend and her ex butch single as long as they remain in this community. I personally do not see this as a realistic situation.

[Rockinonahigh]

Rockin you're a better person than I, let some mother fucker grab me by the collar cause they think in their mind they still have rights to their EX head. That's down right insane right there!

I see this a lot in hetero break ups:|


Thanks Snow,I really just wanted to slap the shit out of this person,but she is the spouse of one of my best friends wo wasnt there at the time as she was parking the car when this happened.I didnt say a thing cause I didnt want to put a wedge between my long time friend over her spitefull wife.Sometimes its hard to be the sane one in a crazy world.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I have an expectation that if we're hanging out, sharing meals, talking on the phone that you're (general) not gonna rub your cunt on my dates/boyfriend/partner/slaves/boy/girls leg when I get some cake.

Unless we've made arrangements for that kind of scenario (I tend to leave these kind of scenarios for people that aren't chosen/born family) then please respect my people. I say people because Little Duck is a young very handsome butch woman who's thigh is not a stripper pole.

Respect is key I believe.

[*Anya*]

The original issue was not forever. The issue was blatant flirting a month or two after a long-term relationship. I don't personally look at it as "begrudging".

My perspective is a little more sensitivity or "gentleness" as June called it towards someone that had not yet healed as the breakup was so fresh.

I asked for feedback and knew that there were going to be differing opinions.

Forever would be just plain dumb!


Also id like to say .....as femme's

Who are we to begrudge an "ex" a possible connection and or "date" and or "flirting"

I would not want to be denied that ability Im sure as heck not going to deny anyone else that especially an "ex", people become exe's for various reasons and what not's, does that mean then that NEITHER one should ever date just because they may know someone who knows someone who knows someone else?

I guess Im just living in reality as well as a very small B/F community.

[QueenofSmirks]

... I treat other femmes exactly as I would like to be treated ...

Right, and if some acquaintance that runs in my same circle, someone who I am not friends with, decides to date someone I used to date... good luck to her. Maybe they can make something work out, who knows.

I don't believe anyone owes me any special favors because we both happen to identify somewhere on the femme spectrum. I really don't understand that kind of thinking.

[gaea]

Right, and if some acquaintance that runs in my same circle, someone who I am not friends with, decides to date someone I used to date... good luck to her. Maybe they can make something work out, who knows.

I don't believe anyone owes me any special favors because we both happen to identify somewhere on the femme spectrum. I really don't understand that kind of thinking.



I agree with this

[girl_dee]

an acquaintance's ex or online acquaintance.. yes

a good friend - hell no

If you are a really good friend of mine then we have probably shared all of our hard stuff...we've talked and possibly cried.. we've been there for each other through ups and downs..

to me it's just too icky of a situation.

There are also the types of friends who don't turn out to be a real friend at all which is a whole 'nother thread...

[tantalizingfemme]

Hell, my ex back in 2002... I would have blessed any new love interest for her, after we broke up. Instead. I moved from Arizona to the east coast to get off her radar. And even then she still operated under the belief that distance would make the heart grow fonder. Oy.... :)

[QueenofSmirks]

Hell, my ex back in 2002... I would have blessed any new love interest for her, after we broke up. Instead. I moved from Arizona to the east coast to get off her radar. And even then she still operated under the belief that distance would make the heart grow fonder. Oy.... :)

Completely off topic and nothing to do with relationships... we switched places! I moved from the East Coast to Arizona :)


Back to the thread topic.... for the record, I am not dating your ex LOL

[Medusa]

In my mind, anyone who has ever been partnered to or lived with any of my girlfriends is completely and utterly off limits.

And that doesn't mean that my sistergirls aren't partnered to some amazing Butches and Transmen but my primary relationships are with my Femme girlfriends. (I'd say a good 90% of my closest friendships are with Femmes.) Those primary relationships are important to me and reside in a protected place in my heart and no amount of sexytime will change that.

[Beloved]

It depends on so many variables. How close you are with the friend, what kind of relationship is had with the ex, how much time has passed etc. In my late teens a friend of mine dated an ex of mine and I was really ok with it. I was kind of strange at first but I didn't want him...she could have him! They broke up but she is still one of my closest friends to this day.

I've never done it, though.

[Martina]

I only have one close femme friend, and she is a Top. So it is unlikely that she would date any of my exes. If she did, I'd like to see it. Just be a fly on the wall.

In general, I think that it's none of my business who my ex dates. Sometimes it's hard to hear about because -- and this is my sad shit -- a lot of times, my exes change after me and end up giving the new person stuff they withheld from me. One was a workaholic. It broke us up. The breakup and a minor health scare got her to re-evaluate, and the next person in her life had a different/better experience in most ways. That shit makes me sad. Sad about me. I certainly wish my exes and their new partners the best. But I don't want to witness their new relationships most of the time, and that's when a friend or acquaintance is not involved.

Casual friends dating exes -- I do not care. A close friend? Only if the relationship had been inconsequential or over for a number of years. If it happened short of that, it would be awkward. In terms of my dating a friend's ex, I guess I'd consider it if I were interested. I'd have to check out how much damage it would cause first. But I don't have any hard and fast rules.

[Words]

Under normal circumstances, I'd say that I would neither flirt nor otherwise go after a friend's ex because, up until meeting Blue, I'd met no one worth losing a night's sleep over, let alone a friendship.

But...and please bear in mind here that I'm not lucky enough to have any femme friends who live this side of the Atlantic, let alone locally...say I'd met Blue and he was the ex of an (imaginary) best femme friend of mine. Would I flirt with Hym in front of said (imaginary) best femme friend? No, no need to rub salt in the wound. But would I otherwise go after Hym? Absolutely. I'd probably feel shit about it, but selfish as it may seem, knowing what I do about Blue, there is nothing on earth that would stop me from trying to be with Hym.

Which makes me, I guess, judging by most of the responses here, a potentially crappy friend. Sorry:(

Words

[Angeltoes]

I would choose the heart of my established friend over the possibility of having something new with a stranger. Personally, I would be hurt if a friend just disregarded my feelings that way. If you're friends you should at least be able to talk about it beforehand and find out if it's an issue.

[Martina]

The thing is that most of the time, I imagine, the parties involved just wouldn't care. So why have a rule? And if, as in Word's case, you are confronted with THE relationship, then most bets are off.

I see no point in a rule. If the question is would I be hurt, probably not. If I were, should it make a difference to the new couple? Probably not. Why should my old pain discourage a potentially good relationship from forming?

I saw mention of something called a femme code. After nearly 30 years of being a femme, I learn there is a code. Who knew? I assume it means don't flirt with a friend's ex -- in this context.

The idea is offensive to me in some ways. The assumption is that femmes need a code, that without it we'd be poaching each other's partners or ex's, that there is a real risk of that kind of behavior without creating norms we have to enforce with our disapproval.

I have never run with large groups of butches and femmes, but I have known many over the years. And I would not characterize femmes this way.

[Soft*Silver]

I have dated exes of friends. I have asked my friends first, if that was ok. Protocol. And courtesy.

the problem I see in the case Anya gave us, was the nastiness of those two flirting in front of her friend. Mean People! It was low and spiteful of them to put on a display that they knew would make Anya's friend uncomfortable. If I did date someone's ex, I would be discrete about affection in front of them until I knew everyone involved was ok with it.

I have had new girlfriends of MY exes parade in front of me. But then, I did that to someone once too, for which i am ashamed now of my past action. We learn through our mistakes or we stay bitches. I learned...

[princessbelle]

I think one thing to keep in mind is the fact that when you are thinking about dating someone, you don't know them all that well. At least on an intimate level.

For instance...i could say i would have dated Bully no matter what, 'cause we are a perfect match. Did i know that at the beginning? Nope. I had no clue. As a matter of fact we were/are complete opposites.

So, it's like well if Bully had dated one of my closest friends i would have never even got to the point of really being close enough to her to find out she was perfect for me. Maybe a sad fact, but in my view it would have had to be that way. Also as someone else pointed out, if you are tight with a femme friend, you would most likely know all the diss about the ex and why they broke up anyway and doubtful they would be attractive to begin with.

I remember in high school my bbf was dating a dude named David. I had a crush and honestly only because his parents owned a Duncan Donuts and it was cool. His family was very wealthy and he always had the coolest tennis shoes. They were always bright orange. Oh how i digress. Anyway, she called me one day and said...you like David i don't. You can have him. He went along with that LOL. Only lasted a couple of weeks. It felt awkward. Even though Terry had said it was ok, it didn't feel ok. So i waved goodbye to the tennis shoes with money.

Of course all situations are different and unique.

It really is personal perception and personal opinions of specific situations for sure.

Again, really interesting thread and i've enjoyed reading everyone's pov.

[Martina]

I also DATE femmes. Femmes are not some category of person whom I bond with in a non-sexual way and swear a scouts' oath of loyalty to.

I don't know. Weird eery heteronormative music started playing in the background when I was reading this thread.

[Angeltoes]

Weird eery heteronormative music started playing in the background when I was reading this thread. Are you saying it's weird to not date other femmes and to prefer butches? Not saying I don't find femmes to be *beautiful* but it saddens me to be boxed into the weird category once again because I prefer dating the more masculine end of the spectrum. Cues Radiohead *I'm a creep, I'm a weirdo*....

[The_Lady_Snow]

I also DATE femmes. Femmes are not some category of person whom I bond with in a non-sexual way and swear a scouts' oath of loyalty to.

I don't know. Weird eery heteronormative music started playing in the background when I was reading this thread.



Oh, *I* date all over the queer gender spectrum.




I'm far from hetero so I'm going to disagree with your perception.

It's a buzzkill (for the relationship) if a trusted member of my chosen inner circle dates or makes a move on someone I was in love with or owned.

It's boundary crossing for "me" I don't expect for anyone else but the people I'm allowing in my life to respect these boundaries. It's going to be a well known fact I have these expectations because like with any other relationship my chosen circle will know because in developing the friendship it will be talked about. Friendships are relationships.

I feel it's an individual choice on how one values relationships over nookie.

[Medusa]

Gender is much less important to me when this boundary issue exists than the fact that I want to honor my friendships and maintain loyalty to my heartfriends.

I would feel exactly the same way if say Just_G, whom I consider to be one of my close Butch friends, suddenly started dating Butches, got into a long term relationship, was all in love and shit, and they then split up. I wouldn't date G's ex partner, Butch or Femme or Transman, for the exact same reason I don't date my girlfriend's exes.

The bonds I have with my Femme girlfriends are special though, no doubt, and whether it's het-normative or not, those relationships are a type of bond that is specific, intentional, and some of the most affirming space I have in my life.

[princessbelle]

I don't see heteronormalitive being played out at all. If i were into femmes and i had had a close femme friend i wouldn't date her either. No difference whatsoever.

And besides, all butches are not male identified for sure.

Has nothing to do with ID that i see.

[Martina]

I get the friend thing. I don't get the femme code thing. That strikes me as sexist and heteronormative.

Sexist in the sense that if we didn't claim this great loyalty bond, we'd be out there conniving to get each other's partners.

Heteronormative in grouping like gender people "friends" and the other gender as "potential dates."

[Martina]

Are you saying it's weird to not date other femmes and to prefer butches?

No. I wasn't saying that.

[princessbelle]

I am trying to understand Martina.

Aren't we talking about dating a friend's ex here?

I don't think anyone is saying they are out to get someone's partner if they aren't a friend.

Exes is the key work i believe.

Again, i don't see anything heteronormalitive about it.

This is the femme zone. So it's femme's talking to other femmes. Never crossed my mind this would be seen as heteronormalitive due to any loyalty to other femme's. I must be missing something.

[*Anya*]

I have dated exes of friends. I have asked my friends first, if that was ok. Protocol. And courtesy.

the problem I see in the case Anya gave us, was the nastiness of those two flirting in front of her friend. Mean People! It was low and spiteful of them to put on a display that they knew would make Anya's friend uncomfortable. If I did date someone's ex, I would be discrete about affection in front of them until I knew everyone involved was ok with it.

I have had new girlfriends of MY exes parade in front of me. But then, I did that to someone once too, for which i am ashamed now of my past action. We learn through our mistakes or we stay bitches. I learned...

Miss Tia, I appreciate that you read and "got it" exactly as written!

Just simple human kindness. Femme to femme kindness.

Dating the ex of a close, sister-heart femme would not even be in my own personal universe of clear boundaries but neither would hurting a non-close acquaintance by flirting in front a recently dumped or in pain femme.

That is just me.

I get that many of you have a different belief or value system.

We certainly do not always agree on the Planet and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, as is our right.

[Martina]

I agree, belle. It should be about how you'd treat any friend or friendship. It's not a butch femme thing, I'd hope.

Edited to add -- this is not worthy of a sustained discussion. Or at least I don't have that much energy invested.

[princessbelle]

I think the butch/femme identity comes up a lot here. I just never see butch/femme as heteronormalitive at all. Actually, i see it as the farthest thing from it. I guess that's where we differ.

It's funny that someone may see butch/femme as heteronormalitive behavior. In fact, it feels like a heteronoramalitive way of looking at things to even think that.

LOL. I know that made no sense.

[Martina]

I was seeing the heteronormative part is ASSUMING that we date across genders. That is heteronormative. Not saying butch-femme is. But the assumption that femmes NATURALLY or inevitably date butches and butches femmes IS.

I am not saying it was generally assumed, but in some posts, it was. I guess it's a fair assumption on this site, but it's not, in fact, true of all of us. And sometimes I like to point that out.

[princessbelle]

I disagree totally.

I date women. Nothing heteronormalitive about it. Nothing. When i dated FtMs or Trans, still wasn't heteronormalitive. I haven't been on that side of the fence for 15 years. lol.

You are right it's not worth our time here i'm sure. We just see things differently. That's ok.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Sigh. I was seeing the heteronormative part is ASSUMING that we date across genders. That is heteronormative. Not saying butch-femme is. But the assumption that femmes NATURALLY or inevitably date butches and butches femmes IS.

I am not saying it was generally assumed, but in some posts, it was. I guess it's a fair assumption on this site, but it's not, in fact, true of all of us. And sometimes I like to point that out.



I tend not to assume that femme = dating butch only. I certainly don't date in this way.

[Martina]

I disagree totally.

I date women. Nothing heteronormalitive about it. Nothing. When i dated FtMs or Trans, still wasn't heteronormalitive. I haven't been on that side of the fence for 15 years. lol.

You are right it's not worth our time here i'm sure. We just see things differently. That's ok.



Where am I saying that that is heteronormative? Where? I clarified. I am saying it is heteronormative to assume that masculine folks inevitably date feminine.

[princessbelle]

Where am I saying that that is heteronormative? Where? I clarified. I am saying it is heteronormative to assume that masculine folks inevitably date feminine.

I hear you. I still disagree. I do not see that feminine dating masculine is heteronormalitive. I just don't.

[Medusa]

Sigh. I was seeing the heteronormative part is ASSUMING that we date across genders. That is heteronormative. Not saying butch-femme is. But the assumption that femmes NATURALLY or inevitably date butches and butches femmes IS.

I am not saying it was generally assumed, but in some posts, it was. I guess it's a fair assumption on this site, but it's not, in fact, true of all of us. And sometimes I like to point that out.

Ah, I see what you're saying.

I think when I think of the Butch/Femme dance in my head, it is a specific dynamic based on mutual attraction of certain gender-types. This is probably binary thinking. That dance has been exploded for me in amazing ways by witnessing Butches date other Butches and Femmes date other Femmes and Transmen dating Butches or Femmes and vice-versa.

My specific brand of Femme is attracted to Butches when it comes to sex and partnering. I like the genderfuck and the mind-fuck. The other wonderful thing that comes from that is that I find camaraderie with other Femmes who have a similar kind of specific attraction to other Butches. It's just familiar and intimate on levels that feel cozy (and maybe safe?)

Doesn't mean I don't have anything in common with Femme sisters who exclusively date other Femmes or Transmen. It's just a different orbit and a different level of connection.

When I think of the kind of boundaries I want to have in friendships and dating, I think about the value of my connections and not the gender of those connections.

[Martina]

I tend not to assume that femme = dating butch only. I certainly don't date in this way.

Yes, and there are butches who date butches here. And some andro women. So it's good once and a while I think to raise one's hand and say, femme-femme doesn't necessarily mean platonic friend nor butch-femme necessarily potential dating partners.

Anyway. I don't think anyone has a stake in saying that it DOES mean that. But it does get assumed a lot, which makes sense. So sometimes I clear my throat and say "ahem," there are a few of us who do other stuff too.

[Martina]

I do not see that feminine dating masculine is heteronormalitive. I just don't.

Nor do I!!

Assuming it is natural or the norm IS, however.

[Medusa]

Where am I saying that that is heteronormative? Where? I clarified. I am saying it is heteronormative to assume that masculine folks inevitably date feminine.

I think I am probably way more likely to assume that on this website microcosm than I am out in my general Queer circles. That's just based on what I perceive to be the patterns of attraction in this community.

Have certainly seen folks date across all genders here but I do think that the majority of connections I see are based on an attraction that looks very much like a yin/yang.

[princessbelle]

Nor do I!!

Assuming it is natural or the norm IS, however.

I haven't seen anyone raise that assumption at all. Who are you talking about that did that?

[Medusa]

Yes, and there are butches who date butches here. And some andro women. So it's good once and a while I think to raise one's hand and say, femme-femme doesn't necessarily mean platonic friend nor butch-femme necessarily potential dating partners.

Anyway. I don't think anyone has a stake in saying that it DOES mean that. But it does get assumed a lot, which makes sense. So sometimes I clear my throat and say "ahem," there are a few of us who do other stuff too.

I'm glad you do that! I think it helps break down some of those pre-conceived notions or maybe patterns of expectation that we all bump into.

I know I feel much the same way (gratitude) when people speak up for "ahem, not all Butches identify as 'he'" and "not all fat Femmes want to lose weight" and "ahem, bottom Butch does NOT equal submissive".

[LadyRieinAL]

Every Butch who has ever dated a femme is some femmes Ex

And are all femmes to be considered Sister femmes to every femme on Planet?

Perhaps it would it be better for each butch to come with a warning label - Be forewarned my ex is _____ and ______ and ______.

And at what time does my own desire, my own happines mean anything - Good lord, does this mean I'm bad and wrong if I find someone attractive who has dated someone on Planet who is someone's EX.

And If I decide to do the right thing in another femme's eyes and not date her EX, will she help me look outside of Planet for someone for me to date?

And is this discussion about any Ex on Planet OR the just the Ex of a femme that I've developed a bond?

I hate stepping on other people's hearts - why did this subject have to come up - man!! NOW I have more worries on my plate.

My little list of what is acceptable for a perspective date has just become almost Nil.
:seeingstars:

[The_Lady_Snow]

Yes, and there are butches who date butches here. And some andro women. So it's good once and a while I think to raise one's hand and say, femme-femme doesn't necessarily mean platonic friend nor butch-femme necessarily potential dating partners.

Anyway. I don't think anyone has a stake in saying that it DOES mean that. But it does get assumed a lot, which makes sense. So sometimes I clear my throat and say "ahem," there are a few of us who do other stuff too.

Ahhh, see I post with the assumption Ex meant ex period, not just specific to butch.femme relationships.

I'm personally not goinfriendship friendship over lust/dating that goes across the gender board.

[Martina]

I like gender. I like people who rock it, be they femme, butch, genderqueer or something else.

I also like power; powerful people do it for me.

I am not interested in someone because they are butch or femme. I like butch. I like femme. But I like my kinda butch and my kinda femme. Butches who are not like the kind who do it for me -- I am no more interested in than in anyone else who does not ring my bell.

What I do get from butches and femmes that I am grateful for (and need) is that mutual recognition that we offer one another, that respect and appreciation of one another that we so far can only get from one another. I value that highly.

Edited to add: This probably seems like it follows from nothing. Just commenting on the Ying-Yang thing. I am not so ying yang except where power is concerned. Not so much with gender.

[Medusa]

Every Butch who has ever dated a femme is some femmes Ex

And are all femmes to be considered Sister femmes to every femme on Planet?

Perhaps it would it be better for each butch to come with a warning label - Be forewarned my ex is _____ and ______ and ______.

And at what time does my own desire, my own happines mean anything - Good lord, does this mean I'm bad and wrong if I find someone attractive who has dated someone on Planet who is someone's EX.

And If I decide to do the right thing in another femme's eyes and not date her EX, will she help me look outside of Planet for someone for me to date?

And is this discussion about any Ex on Planet OR the just the Ex of a femme that I've developed a bond?

I hate stepping on other people's hearts - why did this subject have to come up - man!! NOW I have more worries on my plate.

My little list of what is acceptable for a perspective date has just become almost Nil.
:seeingstars:



Lady-

I perceive people to be talking about *very* close friendships, not the casual connections that I think you are describing.

Just for example, June and I are very close friends. She is my sistergirl and I have known her and her partner for going on 8 or 9 years now. I love them both.
They also know Jackhammer and I has a couple. We have been in each other's homes several times and June and I are probably responsible for keeping AT&T in business with thousands of hours of phone calls.

We are close in ways that are super intimate and I have confided in her as she has in me about very personal things. If she and Kat broke up, you couldn't PAY me to date Kat. Or even consider it. (and that isn't because I don't think Kat is awesome, because she is, but she is my girl's partner and therefor off limits in huge ways fo-eva-eva).

And honestly, it's not even something that will ever come up because my relationship with Jackhammer is forever and #2 My friendship with June is a primary friendship.

[The_Lady_Snow]

You're welcome to date any of my exes!!



Every Butch who has ever dated a femme is some femmes Ex

And are all femmes to be considered Sister femmes to every femme on Planet?

Perhaps it would it be better for each butch to come with a warning label - Be forewarned my ex is _____ and ______ and ______.

And at what time does my own desire, my own happines mean anything - Good lord, does this mean I'm bad and wrong if I find someone attractive who has dated someone on Planet who is someone's EX.

And If I decide to do the right thing in another femme's eyes and not date her EX, will she help me look outside of Planet for someone for me to date?

And is this discussion about any Ex on Planet OR the just the Ex of a femme that I've developed a bond?

I hate stepping on other people's hearts - why did this subject have to come up - man!! NOW I have more worries on my plate.

My little list of what is acceptable for a perspective date has just become almost Nil.
:seeingstars:

[QueenofSmirks]

Miss Tia, I appreciate that you read and "got it" exactly as written!

Just simple human kindness. Femme to femme kindness.

Dating the ex of a close, sister-heart femme would not even be in my own personal universe of clear boundaries but neither would hurting a non-close acquaintance by flirting in front a recently dumped or in pain femme.

That is just me.

I get that many of you have a different belief or value system.

We certainly do not always agree on the Planet and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, as is our right.

Anya, I think it's great that you shared this and started a discussion about it. But I feel like you put these questions out there, asked for everyone's opinions, and then essentially snubbed your nose at anyone who has a different take on the situation. Your disclaimer that you understand that many of "us" have a different belief or value system sounds judgmental to me.

Your original post included these questions: "What do you feel about this? Is it OK because the couple were broken up? Is there a respectable amount of time that should pass before you, as a femme, flirt with or date a friend's ex in front of another femme sister-even if not you are not close friends? Does it matter? Is it different online vs. real life? Your thoughts? "

I think all of those questions are worthy of asking, but then your responses to those that didn't answer as you would, just seem... judgmental. I don't know any other way of saying it. What was the point of asking the questions? You thanked Tia for "getting it exactly as written." What is it that you think the rest of us didn't "get?"

[macele]

for me it would be the same thing if i get into a relationship/date my heterosexual male friend's ex.

makes no difference if my friend is homosexual/heterosexual/transexual/bisexual/butch/femme, etc. ... it's still my friends ex.

[QueenofSmirks]

I am trying to understand Martina.

Aren't we talking about dating a friend's ex here?...



Actually, there are 2 discussions going on. The original post stated the two women were NOT friends, they were acquaintances. The thread did go off on another discussion of dating friends' exes, and ex's friends, and other combinations.

[always2late]

I don't think that I could ever date a good friend's ex...and I certainly wouldn't flirt with them in front of my friend. I think that for me, personally, it is a matter of respect for my friend's feelings. But I also think it depends on the friend as well...and their feelings for their ex. For example, in my younger years, I hung around with a group of friends and we all had what were basically lust-driven, short-lived dating relationships. In our circle, several people dated each other's exes and it never caused any conflict within the group...because there were no truly deep feelings involved.

[*Anya*]

Wow Queen of Smirks!

I snubbed my nose at no one and clearly said we all have our own opinions and and as usual, many of us disagree.

I DO get that many if you have a different value or belief system. In what universe is that not OK?

Rhetorical question because I don't know if you play devils advocate or what but you do tend to frequently poke at an opinion that you do not agree with.

That feels real judgmental to me!!

In the same way that you are entitled to your opinion:

I am also entitled to mine!!

[princessbelle]

Actually, there are 2 discussions going on. The original post stated the two women were NOT friends, they were acquaintances. The thread did go off on another discussion of dating friends' exes, and ex's friends, and other combinations.



Yes it did.

Edited to add: All of our threads do. Well, most of them. Good convos happen that way sometimes.

[gaea]

Every Butch who has ever dated a femme is some femmes Ex

And are all femmes to be considered Sister femmes to every femme on Planet?

Perhaps it would it be better for each butch to come with a warning label - Be forewarned my ex is _____ and ______ and ______.

And at what time does my own desire, my own happines mean anything - Good lord, does this mean I'm bad and wrong if I find someone attractive who has dated someone on Planet who is someone's EX.

And If I decide to do the right thing in another femme's eyes and not date her EX, will she help me look outside of Planet for someone for me to date?

And is this discussion about any Ex on Planet OR the just the Ex of a femme that I've developed a bond?

I hate stepping on other people's hearts - why did this subject have to come up - man!! NOW I have more worries on my plate.

My little list of what is acceptable for a perspective date has just become almost Nil.
:seeingstars:

I agree whole heartedly with all the above here....

[tantalizingfemme]

Honestly, I don't put the responsibility for that on the new partner or prospect though...I put that responsibility on the ex.

I think the above is important to repeat.


Anya, I can tell by your very emotional reaction to this situation/subject that you really care for your friend. I hope that this will soon be a distant memory for her and bitterness stays far away. :)

[Dance-with-me]

Many good points have been made. The main one that I agreed with is the issue of acquaintance vs good friend. A good friend's ex would be off limits for me without a considerable amount of discussion with that friend. But to exclude acquaintances' ex's would be unreasonably limiting in an already limited and therefor unavoidably incestuous community.

And I have to say honestly that in a situation of A and B break up, A starts dating C then gets hurt because her acquaintance D is flirting with her ex B at a party? Sorry, but to me, there's too many degrees of separation there in MY mind for A to justify getting upset that her ex and an acquaintance are flirting when A already has someone new.

Is it different online vs. real life?
I guess I'm not understanding this question in the context of a situation that you described as being all "real life" and not online. Do you mean people who are acquaintances only online? Or people who are real-life acquaintances but who interact online? or do you mean online "dating" without having ever met?

[*Anya*]

I think the above is important to repeat.


Anya, I can tell by your very emotional reaction to this situation/subject that you really care for your friend. I hope that this will soon be a distant memory for her and bitterness stays far away. :)

I think a lot of folks had many reactions to several of the issues that evolved out of the original post. I wrote mine no more or less "very emotionally" than anyone else has posted here. I might add, are women not frequently told by bio men that they are "very emotional" when voicing an opinion strongly? That is another thread, I guess.

Did I react negatively to being told I "snubbed my nose" and was "judgmental" to those with different opinions? Yes. That clearly felt like a personal attack to me. Actually, it was. I ensure that I make no personal attacks or use judgmental attacks on others when I disagree and pride myself on that. Should I have said that the poster appeared to be devils advocate? No, I should not have. I was being reactive and I do apologize for that. I do not feel proud of my reaction in that case.

As I have said in many posts since I joined, that is the beauty of the Planet: that we are all entitled to our reactions, both positive and negative and I believe that several folks in this thread agreed and several did not.

One post can prompt 10 different opinions. I may not agree with 5 of the 10 and may say so, but I defend to the end their right to that opinion and to say so (as long as we do so without personal attacks on those with which we disagree).

We do not all have to agree and we certainly can support opinions both pro and con, as anyone can see by all posts in this thread.

I feel for any femme or butch dealing with a breakup-regardless of who they may be.

All of us know what that feels like.

I will never apologize for advocating kindness towards anyone's sadness, be it loss of a relationship or any other type of loss. It does not matter to me if one is a close friend or someone I hardly know.

I advocated for discretion with the person she only knew casually. No nose rubbing was necessary-in my opinion.

The friend issues was an offshoot that just arose as it usually does around here. No, I personally would not date the ex of a friend. Again, my opinion!

I state my own opinion, just the same way everyone else does on the Planet.

[tantalizingfemme]

Wow, you completely misinterpreted my post. Not sure why you are so defensive to a simple post pointing out how I noticed how much you care about your friend.

Btw, this is coming as femme to femme, not bio-male to femme.

[Dance-with-me]

Something I meant to ask: Was your friend there with the new person she was seeing?

If not, would it have been different (at least in your mind, since you can't answer for her) if she had been there with her new gf?

If she was there with the new gf, do you feel that she would be obligated to not be affectionate with her new gf in front of her ex?

I'm just trying to understand.

[*Anya*]

Something I meant to ask: was your friend there with the new person she was seeing? If not, would it have been different (at least in your mind p, since you can't answer for her) if she had been there with her new gf? If she was there with the new gf, do you feel that she would be obligated to not be affectionate with her new gf in front of her ex? I'm just trying to understand.

Actually, she went by herself. She had not started to date. The break-up was pretty new. She did not know the ex would be there with someone new.

I am off to bed now.

Good night all.

[*Anya*]

Wow, you completely misinterpreted my post. Not sure why you are so defensive to a simple post pointing out how I noticed how much you care about your friend.

Btw, this is coming as femme to femme, not bio-male to femme.

I guess it was the "very emotional" phrase and maybe now, the "so defensive".

I did like the "how much you care for your friend". That was nice and I should have noted that.

Thank you.

[QueenofSmirks]

Wow Queen of Smirks!

I snubbed my nose at no one and clearly said we all have our own opinions and and as usual, many of us disagree.

I DO get that many if you have a different value or belief system. In what universe is that not OK?

Rhetorical question because I don't know if you play devils advocate or what but you do tend to frequently poke at an opinion that you do not agree with.

That feels real judgmental to me!!

In the same way that you are entitled to your opinion:

I am also entitled to mine!!

A universe full of different value and belief systems is fine; I never said otherwise. However, we're not talking about the universe. We're talking about this thread. And if you can't see how your statement might be construed as judgmental, well, there is apparently nothing I can say to help you understand that. So, I'll leave you to *your opinion*.

[QueenofSmirks]

...
Did I react negatively to being told I "snubbed my nose" and was "judgmental" to those with different opinions? Yes. That clearly felt like a personal attack to me. Actually, it was. I ensure that I make no personal attacks or use judgmental attacks on others when I disagree and pride myself on that. Should I have said that the poster appeared to be devils advocate? No, I should not have. I was being reactive and I do apologize for that. I do not feel proud of my reaction in that case.

As I have said in many posts since I joined, that is the beauty of the Planet: that we are all entitled to our reactions, both positive and negative and I believe that several folks in this thread agreed and several did not.

One post can prompt 10 different opinions. I may not agree with 5 of the 10 and may say so, but I defend to the end their right to that opinion and to say so (as long as we do so without personal attacks on those with which we disagree).

....

Anya, I was direct, but I did not personally attack you. My comments were directed at you because you're the one who started the thread, and my questions were about your questions. I said it felt like (to ME) that your responses to posters that did not fall in line with your way of thinking/behaving were judgmental. That is my opinion. I don't know any other way to state it that you wouldn't consider it a "personal attack". I was confused why you would ask a slew of questions but then give responses like "I would never do that, but I understand *your* values may be different." I asked you to clarify a few things so that I could understand where you were coming from and to possibly clear up any misunderstandings on my part. I do not play devil's advocate unless I state I am doing so to make a point. I don't need to come into threads to stir up shit, they often do that all by themselves. If you don't feel like answering my questions, that is certainly your right; I'm not going to lose sleep over it. I'm fine with sticking to discussions where people actually take responsibility for what they say and respond to each other's questions and comments, whether we agree or not.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I do not believe in a femme code. I certainly don't believe in a butch code. I have straight female friends and just me dyke friends and butch friends and gay male friends and straight male friends.

they all get the same love, affection and appreciation. My bestest, oldest friend is a straight woman. Three closest, most adored friends are a butch, a bisexual girl with no ID, and a dyke who ID's as "dolly mixture" (a licorice candy bag of all sorts)

I have very close femme friends but they don't get anymore special treatment or coded behaviour than the rest of my cherished friends, that would be weird to me.

Would I flirt with an aquaintence's ex partner? probably. I'm sure she's an adult and knows that her partner will start to see other people.

When my wife and I broke, we divided things up socially - who would get what night where, and we'd text each other to let the other know if we were going to be at an event. Why? because we didn't want to see each other flirting or snogging or whatever with other people AND it's NOT anyone's responsibility for our feelings around each other as an ex couple. It was up to us to deal with it. I've always done this with my exes - for X amount of time we do not attend the same events so that we do not restrict each other and we do not have to see things we do not want to see.

I would assume that everyone else took that same due care like the grown ups they are supposed to be and not shove that responsibility onto other people.

Would I date a recent ex of a close friend? no. I have slept with exes of close-ish friends after a period of time apart that I thought was reasonable - one in particular, a year had passed and she was engaged to someone else. I told her what had happened. her reaction was a *bit* on the dramatic side. She ran out of the house crying. She then tried to kick me out of the house we were living together in and the rest of the girls in the house said I had broken a "code" and got pretty fucking nasty to me. I pointed out that perhaps if she felt THAT strongly about Eric, perhaps she shouldn't be marrying someone else??? If she didn't know she felt that way about Eric still, maybe it's a bloody good thing she's just found out??

I left the house and was made into a harlot because I broke "the code". Pfft. Codes can suck my fat chunky asshole. I made a judgement of action based on what I knew about individuals. Codes are for things like bikers clubs or boy scouts or freemasons. Not a gender group that I have nothing in common with save for the same gender presentation. I thought third wave feminism proved that not all women have the same experiences? That can be extended to any gender representation.

Sorry, no code for me. respect as individuals and an expectation for them to take care of themselves.

ETA: I just remembered... a long time aquaintance of mine was married and in an open relationship. She was shagging someone who was interested in me and I was interested in her. She spoke to her, telling her that she would be dating me. She was pissy but accepted it. We started dating. My friendly aquaintance with that femme... well she stopped talking to me. My date then broke with her because she no longer wanted to be screwing more than one person at a time. my femme aquaintance then threw me hostile looks at events. Fair enough, her feelings were hurt. However, she was married to someone and what happened between my date and her was not my making or business - it was for them to sort out. And if she didn't want to talk to me... I understood. However, I knew she'd get over it. She did. about three months later we were all talking and laughing at the same table in the pub and at one point she'd come over, give me a hug and sit on my date's lap and we'd talk.

My ex housemate and I have never spoken again. She made me into a demon and took no responsibility for how she felt or communicated.

People, if they assume responsibilty for their own emotions and relationships, get over things.

[Nomad]

(JUST A SNIPPET OF THE BRILLIANCE)

People, if they assume responsibilty for their own emotions and relationships, get over things.


oh applause. sheer, unadulterated, appreciative, whole hearted, high fivin', fist bumping, and completely uncensored OH HELL YES! HELL YES THEY DAMN WELL DO applause

(going back to my corner now)

[Nomad]

. SNIPPING AGAIN!
Codes are for things like bikers clubs or boy scouts or freemasons. Not a gender group that I have nothing in common with save for the same gender presentation. I thought third wave feminism proved that not all women have the same experiences? That can be extended to any gender representation.

Sorry, no code for me. respect as individuals and an expectation for them to take care of themselves.


just gotta come back and highlight another part of this freaking AWESOME post! serious. i'm OVER the "code" mentality.

i'm also over the "waiting code".. that's the one that says a person has to wait a mysteriously determined amount of time before dating after a break up.

the "waiting code" says: if you dont wait long enough you're a whore and if you wait too long you've become maudlin.

BULL

if you choose not to wait very long that doesnt mean you're not aching over your break up. it means that you're human and want connection with other humans. conversely, being alone or waiting doesnt mean you're depressed. it might just mean that you're happy on your own!

everyone's code should be self-determined.

[The_Lady_Snow]

That's odd to me as well.

If my friend is getting married and she's flipping out over an ex I'd be like WTF:|

If you're marrying X why does what G do bother you?

That kind of ownership after a break up mentality is downright oogy.

[gaea]

This thread has taken on a whole new spin on things...

What i read was the OP's "friend" was dating however crushed that the "ex" was "FLIRTING" mind you yes i agree with snow....that's just creepy and there is no logic to that kind of ownership...

Some things in life may be upsetting, so if advice for your friend is needed my advice would be to tell you friend to get over it that the ex has every right to "flirt" and in reality if the ex chose to date they have that right as well....or i might suggest the friend continue going out on her own dates or even knowing my snarky self i might say what gives you the right to date others and deny that person theirs all at the same time....makes no sense in my book

again this thread went from the original question of 2 people flirting only the one not even knowing the OP's friend let alone could call them close or what have you. So in essence it wouldn't matter who the ex was flirting with......

The title could have reflected the question better as if to say is it ok to flirt with a complete stranger's ex beau....it may not have gotten all this heated yet great attention yet that's in essence what the topic in the original comment is about strangers who happen to see each other occasionally non the less still strangers......

just my opinion....

as i read here more and more this thread somewhat reminds of that game my friends in junior high played you know that one where they whisper something in each other's ear and by the end of the 10th person it isn't even what was stated to begin with, I was never "good" at that game because i could never make shit up ...so i don't remember what it was called but this thread reminds me somewhat of that.

[girl_dee]

i just think the OP started a great conversation which zig zags throughout the entire subject matter.

[The_Lady_Snow]

See I don't see the Junior high telephone game going on you're speaking of gaea, maybe it's because some of the Femme's posting happen to be real time, online friends so therefore some folks are posting from their POV. I went and re-read the OP her questions opened up this conversation to a wide variety of different opinions, thoughs, and personal experiences.

It happens in ALL threads, the conversation takes on different highways, roads, intersections where no ones experience or words will match.

Or maybe I'm missing something or have forgotten what Junior High was like, thank Hey Zeus I have cause Jr High SUCKED!

[girl_dee]

And there is the real life vs the internet world.

Around here, especially since so many have migrated to the Planet, many of our on line *friends* date our exes and we date theirs, it's in each other's faces. Drama sometimes occurs (Medusa and June love this) and sometimes it doesn't. We can choose to leave this site if we don't like it, use ignore etc..but that's not usually the way it happens.

When it comes to a real friend (and by that i mean a true blue friend) the exes are not even in the realm of possibility.

[gaea]

See I don't see the Junior high telephone game going on you're speaking of gaea, maybe it's because some of the Femme's posting happen to be real time, online friends so therefore some folks are posting from their POV. I went and re-read the OP her questions opened up this conversation to a wide variety of different opinions, thoughs, and personal experiences.

It happens in ALL threads, the conversation takes on different highways, roads, intersections where no ones experience or words will match.

Or maybe I'm missing something or have forgotten what Junior High was like, thank Hey Zeus I have cause Jr High SUCKED!

right? It did for me as well....

I have this sort of logical brain though that wanted to see the questions addressed and flirting became about dating and sex and what have you....I have enjoyed the thread and all the different views.

[The_Lady_Snow]

right? It did for me as well....

I have this sort of logical bran though that wanted to see the questions addressed and flirting became about dating and sex and what have you....I have enjoyed the thread and all the different views.



Well, flirting for "me" doesn't nor should it lead to fucking/dating, it's an art. Unless the intent is to fuck/date I'm going go with the "flirt" is different be it body language, the change in energy etc.

Online flirtations are gonna be harder to interpret because of the lack of physical viewing.

I hope I'm making sense.

[aishah]

wow. i went out of town without my computer for one day and now i can't catch up, LOL. i can't wait to read the rest of this thread (maybe later today?) but for now...

i'm friends with almost all of my exes, and it's more or less something i feel comfortable talking to them about. i wouldn't object to a friend dating an ex of mine offhand. there are exes i still carry a bit of a torch for and it's bittersweet when i know they're in a new relationship, so it might take some adjusting for me especially if they were in a new relationship with my friend. but i wouldn't expect friends NOT to date my exes.

i'd talk to a friend before i dated their ex. it's a bit funny - i had a date on wednesday with an (offline) friend's ex - and the friend was the one to set me up with her ex. but they also have a more or less friendly relationship now (they were together for several years). if i knew jumping into a relationship with a friend's ex might cause problems, though, i'd definitely talk with them about it first. it would depend a lot on how my friend felt and why, for me.

[gaea]

Well, flirting for "me" doesn't nor should it lead to fucking/dating, it's an art. Unless the intent is to fuck/date I'm going go with the "flirt" is different be it body language, the change in energy etc.

Online flirtations are gonna be harder to interpret because of the lack of physical viewing.

I hope I'm making sense.

you are making absolute sense to me....that was my point....and who are we in all honesty to trash a femme sister based on our own experiences....

this girl a stranger to all of us as well as the OP isn't even here to defend herself.....and what the OP heard is rumor at best.

[aishah]

I also DATE femmes. Femmes are not some category of person whom I bond with in a non-sexual way and swear a scouts' oath of loyalty to.

YES THIS. for me, talking to a friend (or an ex), regardless of how they identify, when there's a potential situation where they might be dating my ex or i might be dating theirs - that's being a nice human being. i'd do that with anyone. i'm not really sure i understand the femme code of loyalty stuff. but i date femmes, too.

i am not sure how being open to dating a friend's ex is tantamount to throwing away a friendship - it seems like that's the basic assumption of many posts on this thread. i have many friendships where that's absolutely not the case (and many of those friendships are with femmes). obviously if there was someone i cared about - like, say, snow or midnight or someone else here, or a friend i have offline, or even an acquaintance - i would ask them first. if they considered it crossing a boundary or felt really strongly about it i most likely wouldn't date their ex - it's not worth it to me. especially if they were a "i'd call you at 4am in a crisis" friend (like the friend who set me up with her ex, who definitely is a close friend). but for me it is not an automatic assumption.

[The_Lady_Snow]

you are making absolute sense to me....that was my point....and who are we in all honesty to trash a femme sister based on our own experiences....

this girl a stranger to all of us as well as the OP isn't even here to defend herself.....and what the OP heard is rumor at best.



Not all Femmes are my sisters I'll be their ally, supporter etc. I can't date my sister or brother:|

[gaea]

Not all Femmes are my sisters I'll be their ally, supporter etc. I can't date my sister or brother:|

right i agree....

so where does the stranger owe some sort of sister code to the friend of the OP?
there's just way to many variables here
and it sorta feels like a witch hunt if i may.....

[The_Lady_Snow]

right i agree....

so where does the stranger owe some sort of sister code to the friend of the OP?
there's just way to many variables here
and it sorta feels like a witch hunt if i may.....


I think when our friends are hurt we support them and listen and shake em when they're being irrational.

I don't think Anya is rousing up the masses and lighting torches, or at least that wasn't the intent * I * read...

I just thought she was asking for input:|

[JustJo]

wow. i went out of town without my computer for one day and now i can't catch up, LOL. i can't wait to read the rest of this thread (maybe later today?) but for now...

i'm friends with almost all of my exes, and it's more or less something i feel comfortable talking to them about. i wouldn't object to a friend dating an ex of mine offhand. there are exes i still carry a bit of a torch for and it's bittersweet when i know they're in a new relationship, so it might take some adjusting for me especially if they were in a new relationship with my friend. but i wouldn't expect friends NOT to date my exes.
i'd talk to a friend before i dated their ex. it's a bit funny - i had a date on wednesday with an (offline) friend's ex - and the friend was the one to set me up with her ex. but they also have a more or less friendly relationship now (they were together for several years). if i knew jumping into a relationship with a friend's ex might cause problems, though, i'd definitely talk with them about it first. it would depend a lot on how my friend felt and why, for me.


aishah, you absolutely need to come hang out at the pool and drink umbrella drinks with me....because I love this.

For me, this is also where kindness, respect and taking some care for the feelings of people that we once at least claimed to care about comes in. It can be really, really hard to see an ex move on...and if there's overt flirting in front of us or "she's so much better than you" stuff going on....it just hurts.

So....yes, I would date the ex of an acquaintance, but if we ended up at the same event together, for instance, I wouldn't be climbing into my honey's lap and trying to elicit some "get a room" commentary either. Well, I don't do that in public at all anyway, but you get the picture. I think it's perfectly possible to move on without trampling on the feelings of the people we used to be with.

Sometimes it just calls for a little discretion, and I think adults should be capable of that.

I'm still in the "no way in hell when it comes to dating exes of close friends" camp though (with regard to my own choices only)....that would just feel super icky to me personally.

[aishah]

thanks for getting it, jo :) <3

disclaimer: the following is just my opinion on jealousy from my own personal experience, and how i choose to live my life. not judging anyone else's feelings on this matter.

i think for me there's also an element of - my being polyamorous, to me at least means that i have certain feelings/opinions about jealousy, etc.

one of those feelings/opinions is that - if an ex and a friend dating is bittersweet for me or makes me feel jealous or upset - that feeling jealous or upset is MY problem. not theirs. same goes with a current partner dating someone else. i don't see it as my personal right to say that they should not be happy together because it makes me upset.

obviously there's an element of discretion involved - if we just went through a bad breakup a month ago, don't be an asshat and date my ex and rub it in my face. and ask me first or break it to me gently.

but part of why i don't consider it a right to deny my friends and exes the possibility of dating is because - if it makes me feel shitty, that's because -i- have issues i need to work on. (i mean, unless there are other issues going on, like the ex and the friend shouldn't be together because one of them is a terrible human being, or something.)

[The_Lady_Snow]

I guess for me I'm not going to police or expect for people who I'm not fucking/dating/involved with to filter their PDA. If I can't handle my EX's new interest then *I* need to take myself out of that harms way. Personal responsibility is key to a good healthy start when dealing these situations.


It would be uncomfortable for My Pack if i got all uncomfy cause their father was doing something with Lynn cause they went to Niagara Falls and we didn't. It would be unfair to my peoples.

[gaea]

I guess for me I'm not going to police or expect for people who I'm not fucking/dating/involved with to filter their PDA. If I can't handle my EX's new interest then *I* need to take myself out of that harms way. Personal responsibility is key to a good healthy start when dealing these situations.


It would be uncomfortable for My Pack if i got all uncomfy cause their father was doing something with Lynn cause they went to Niagara Falls and we didn't. It would be unfair to my peoples.

I love this.

[Kätzchen]

I'm uber-sensitive to items of interest such as the scenario Anya described. I also believe how a person handles such issues largely exemplifies the system of values and ethics that govern their 'universe'.

I do not even think once or twice about such things.

Even here at home, my constellation of close friends is very small;
and my friendships are mostly life long, established friendships.

My priori remains and retains loyalty to those who are near and dear
to my heart. I would never cross that boundary out of mutual respect
for heart issues that are central to maintaining a healthy relationship
with these particular friendship relationships.

[Medusa]

Love this conversation!

I think there is a huge difference in dating the ex of a heart friend and dating the ex of someone with whom you've never had an intimate friend relationship.

Scenario: Let's say June and I have been friends for 10 years and have shared extremely personal things with one another in the confines of our private, loving friendship. Let's say that Jackhammer and I are going through hard times and I confide in June about some of it and she offers advice and a shoulder to lean on. Let's say she even offers a "Ohh girl, I think it's crappy that this is happening and can't believe Jackhammer is treating you this way." She listens to me cry, she offers amazing support.

Let's say Jackhammer and I decide to call it quits.

One month later, June is calling Jackhammer (whom she does not have a primary friendship with but whom she likes as a friend) flirting and asking her on a date. What if she has never once in the 10 years of our friendship picked up the phone to call Jackhammer but has chosen this time to express her interest?

Do I get to feel betrayed by that? Do I get to question why my friend of 10 years would essentially smile in my face and offer support during my breakup all the while planning to move in once she feels the time is right. Do I get to wonder if the entire duration of our friendship, she held some kind of secret torch for my then-partner that she was not willing to discuss with me?

What I'm trying to illustrate is the betrayal of the friendship, not an ownership issue with my 'ex'.

I'd probably feel pretty betrayed for having confided in my friend and operated on the knowledge that she cared about the outcome of my breakup because she wanted me to be happy, not because she had a stake in having a chance at my ex. Does that make sense?

I don't even think that is a Femme code. It's a friend code to me. My heart friends, my sistergirls who I will call when I'm at my lowest, those people who get to have access to me when I'm feeling vulnerable? People like Snowy and Arwen and Bubblin' and Juney and Jennifer and Julie and and and, these are people whom I trust to be honest with me and to operate with integrity. I think it's a mutual agreement.

[Toughy]

It's a shame this is in the femme zone because this so-called code exists in the butch world and actually in everyone's world. I'm with honeyb on this and don't subscribe to any kind of code other than being an adult and acting like an adult.

by Anya

As I have said in many posts since I joined, that is the beauty of the Planet: that we are all entitled to our reactions, both positive and negative and I believe that several folks in this thread agreed and several did not.

I don't believe anyone has advocated dating a close friend's ex without talking to the friend first.

Where folks have had different opinions is about flirting and dating the ex of an acquaintance or someone in your greater social circle.

By the way....like Snow said flirting is not fucking and I have never understood why people get their noses bent out of shape over flirting with someone.....ex of a close friend or not, attached or not.

[aishah]

i don't really see that as operating without integrity - that to me is the part where i guess i don't see eye to eye with many posts on this thread. to me the emphasis on values and ethics people have made here makes it feel like this is some sort of moral absolute - which - for me, it isn't. i have values and ethics. two of those are taking personal responsibility for my emotions and communicating fiercely, lovingly, and directly. those are moral absolutes for me when it comes to any relationship. i haven't taken on the friend code folks are talking about in this thread as an unwritten mutual agreement in any of my relationships.

yes, if a friend started dating an ex when they knew it was a rough time for me, WITHOUT talking to me first, i'd be suspicious as hell. but if a friend started doing ANYTHING that they knew in their heart would hurt me without being honest or talking to me about it, or if i thought they carried a torch for my partner for ten years and they didn't feel they could tell me, that's a huge ass communication problem.

then again, if i broke up with someone i'd been with for ten years, i'd expect them to act differently, too. i mean, if rick and i broke up after seven years, i'd expect him to not go out and start acting the fool tomorrow, or totally stop communicating with me. if i thought he'd carried a torch for my best friend i'd be wondering why the hell i didn't know about it for that long.

[JustJo]

Totally get that Medusa, and yes, I would consider it a betrayal by my friend....and also shitty on the part of my ex.

There is an interesting "other side" to that as well. When my sister was married, I became very close with her husband. They were together 10 years, and he became the big brother I never had. I'd go to him for advice and help, whenever I needed that "male perspective" and he stood by me during some really incredibly tough times.

When they split, my sister was furious that I didn't immediately cease any contact with him. For me, that was shitty too. I wasn't saying "oh I talked to Bill today" to her....and he wasn't either...but she expected me to dump someone important out of my life because they couldn't get along.

Loving this convo....important stuff...and good to hear everyone's opinion.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Ding ding ding, girlfriends talk, we talk about the hard shit, the ugly and the joyful. I couldn't even begin to imagine sexy time with JackHammer even 15 years after the break up.

Jack's awesome but it's almost incestual (is that a word) cause you don't have sexy time with family:|. No bueno!

I'd never fuck/date/move in on my brothers exes (I've no sisters).(born to family)

[pajama]

Y'all know I am a HUGE flirt. Whether people are in or out of a relationship. Some people I flirt more cautiously with, other more sexually with. Both in or out of a relationship. But often (I try to always but always is a big word) I will touch base with people that are in relationships and make sure I'm not crossing a line. I don't see lines very well.

My point to this, is, for me, whether to incestuously date in my community is based on COMMUNICATION. And communication works both ways. If you tell me you are okay with it, then I expect that to be the truth and will move forward accordingly. If you tell me no, then I will back away.

I haven't always communicated well with my partners, but I tend to do it pretty well with my friends. I had an ex that after appropriate time, we became friends, family again even. I found myself falling in love with her partner. As soon as I realized it, I TOLD HER (the ex). For the 10 years that they were together I respected their relationship and even respected my friendship (even when she confided in me that she was having an affair on her partner). (Whole 'nother thread) So, I guess, in part as Snowy said it comes down to each individuals integrity.

I also agree if one is given the green light, be thoughtful and respectful. It may truly be ok with your friend that you date so-and-so, but that doesn't mean it might not sting a bit if she sees it.

Very thought provoking thread Anya. Thank you.

A

[girl_dee]

Y'all know I am a HUGE flirt. Whether people are in or out of a relationship. Some people I flirt more cautiously with, other more sexually with. Both in or out of a relationship. But often (I try to always but always is a big word) I will touch base with people that are in relationships and make sure I'm not crossing a line. I don't see lines very well.

My point to this, is, for me, whether to incestuously date in my community is based on COMMUNICATION. And communication works both ways. If you tell me you are okay with it, then I expect that to be the truth and will move forward accordingly. If you tell me no, then I will back away.

I haven't always communicated well with my partners, but I tend to do it pretty well with my friends. I had an ex that after appropriate time, we became friends, family again even. I found myself falling in love with her partner. As soon as I realized it, I TOLD HER (the ex). For the 10 years that they were together I respected their relationship and even respected my friendship (even when she confided in me that she was having an affair on her partner). (Whole 'nother thread) So, I guess, in part as Snowy said it comes down to each individuals integrity.

I also agree if one is given the green light, be thoughtful and respectful. It may truly be ok with your friend that you date so-and-so, but that doesn't mean it might not sting a bit if she sees it.

Very thought provoking thread Anya. Thank you.

A

i am a flirt too! it doesn't mean i want you. Some people also confuse being nice with being a flirt...

[Medusa]

Pajama is a flirt? NO! ;)

I was posting about the same time Medusa was, and while we don't share a brain, this is something we've talked about a lot after watching people in this community be really shitty and insensitive to each other over pussy and dick.

(All my filters come off on Sunday now because I'm not 49 anymore)

words talked about nothing would stand in the way of her getting to Blue, I get that. And she didn't have to walk over the back of one of her best friends to get there, that's lucky not to have to make that choice.

There are those of us who when faced with a choice like that would choose our close friend. Others wouldn't be able to get their new groove on fast enough and would toss the friendship aside in a heartbeat.

I know people like that. They're not always Femme, either, but they're not my family of choice.


I think this highlights something very important.

I think that we all make relationships, friendship or love ones (or both!), that are based on shared values and expectations. That isn't a complete absolute but I will say that you won't find me having people up in my close orbit who are messy (at least not any longer) in the way of thinking that people are "things" to be taken out and used or tossed aside when the need arises.
Some folks are absolutely ok with that level of messy-type behavior. I'm not one of them.

I'm also not going to form a close bond with someone who I perceive as putting so much importance on sex (or attention-seeking or anything else) that their entire way of being revolves around getting it, at any cost.

Why? Because of that whole "at any cost" thing.

[Random]

I have another question to pose?

What if a mate has passed away?

Would you mind if your best girlfriend hooked up with your partner if you passed away?

If you wouldn't mind then, then what is the difference between a live ex and a passed away partner?

My thoughts are:

I want my friends happy

I want my ex's (after the period of wishing them to be devoured by flesh eating demons has passed) happy...

Every one of my relationships ended because my then partner and I were not a good match... Why would I want to prevent a possible good match where both my ex and my friend found a life time love? or even just a really good time...

Would it bother me, hurt me? ya, but that's my issue... I have possession issues and if someone was once mine, then they are always mine... But I know that's not real, not healthy, and not true... It's my issue and I deal with it...

The possibility of real ever lasting real mother fucking love is slim... I'm lucky to have tasted real love twice.. I wouldn't want to be the one that stood in two other people's way... even if it hurt like hell...

[The_Lady_Snow]

If I die, I've found a place for boy of weather to go to. I'm 100% positive everyone will be happy.

Other than that have at it more power to ya!

:ohm:

[Words]

Why are we assuming here that if someone goes after the ex of someone their motivation for doing so is sex? (Referring here to the pussy, dick, sexy time comments etc.)

Even though I've never actually gone after someone's ex, I feel kind of insulted - as both a woman and a femme - that were I to do so, other femmes would think that my only motive for doing so was a good fucking.

And to be quite honest, if that assumption is part of the femme code we're talking about, then I'm actually quite happy to not subscribe to it.

Sorry but I thought we were better than that.

Words

[The_Lady_Snow]

I was speaking for myself in regards to sexy time and dating my homies EXes. I'm not assuming everyone is out to partake in sexy time.

[gaea]

Speaking for myself here

None of my ex's are my Possession..

therefore flirt away as it isn't any of my business and if i get my little feelers hurt that's my shit to deal with

Im also gonna go out on a line here and stand up for the stranger in this scenario because no where in the original post did it denote that the 2 were "friends" or best friends for that matter simply that they had on occasion to bump into each other....

I wont live by a code where my ex is suppose to be a possession nor will i live by a code where your ex is your possession unless of course there is a contract with your ex and then respect to that contract simply applies...that's a whole 'nother topic though :)

in any case perhaps the OP's friend who was "crushed" need pull up her big girl panties and move on already.

[Words]

I was speaking for myself in regards to sexy time and dating my homies EXes. I'm not assuming everyone is out to partake in sexy time.

Thanks, but it wasn't your comments that bothered me.

A couple of other folks have several times now implied that it's a simple case of choosing between a long standing relationship with a femme 'sister' and 'sexy time' with her ex and that obviously, the relationship should take priority. I just don't think it's that simple, and to be honest, it surprises me that others do. It just seems...well, like we're working according to the assumption that femmes are driven in making difficult decisions by what's between their legs (who they want between their legs?)....and that, to me, feels pretty icky.

Words

[Martina]

I think the difference here is that many of us have been able to develop deep, personal and important relationships with other Femmes and some haven't.


How is this making a difference in terms of this discussion?

I have a close close friend who is femme. I do not think of that friendship as in a different category than other extremely close friendships. I do not think that having this wonderful friendship gives me a significantly different perspective on the world. It's nice to be understood for some parts of myself that I might have to explain to others. On the other hand, she and I are pretty different. She is a Top and does not truly get the subby me. We are very different in terms of who we date and how we interact with our significant people. I would have more common experiences to trade with a straight male sub. But that's not the point of our friendship. While we talk sex and love, we also talk politics and work and how fucked up the commute was and our mothers' neuroses and why cats always jump on your bladder when you have to pee.

[Dance-with-me]

Speaking for myself here

None of my ex's are my Possession..

therefore flirt away as it isn't any of my business and if i get my little feelers hurt that's my shit to deal with

Im also gonna go out on a line here and stand up for the stranger in this scenario because no where in the original post did it denote that the 2 were "friends" or best friends for that matter simply that they had on occasion to bump into each other....

I wont live by a code where my ex is suppose to be a possession nor will i live by a code where your ex is your possession unless of course there is a contract with your ex and then respect to that contract simply applies...that's a whole 'nother topic though :)

in any case perhaps the OP's friend who was "crushed" need pull up her big girl panties and move on already.
This. Exactly, in particular with regard to it being clear that the other femme was nothing more than a nodding acquaintance. I reaslize that this thread took a different direction than the OP stated but I think that point seems to have been lost in the discussion. If I choose to stay away from places my ex is going to be, that's my choice. If I choose to work out an agreement with my ex about who goes to what public/social event so that we don't cross paths, that's my choice. And if I go somewhere and see my EX flirting with someone, or actually WITH someone new, if that person is not someone with whom I would normally have serious personal conversations, and we don't have any kind of deep friendship, then how I respond to seeing my ex with someone else is MY CHOICE. I can choose to behave immaturely as if I owned my ex and as if this acquaintance somehow owed me the loyalty to be hands-off or discrete or whatever, or, as was just stated, I can pull up my big girl panties and deal with my own shit and move on.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Thanks, but it wasn't your comments that bothered me.

A couple of other folks have several times now implied that it's a simple case of choosing between a long standing relationship with a femme 'sister' and 'sexy time' with her ex and that obviously, the relationship should take priority. I just don't think it's that simple, and to be honest, it surprises me that others do. It just seems...well, like we're working according to the assumption that femmes are driven in making difficult decisions by what's between their legs (who they want between their legs?)....and that, to me, feels pretty icky.

Words

I'm using this couple as an example cause we're in the Femme Zone discussing Femmes, these rules would also apply to Zack and Aaron.


I get and pretty much agree with some of the women who expect their friends to not go after their ex partners after a break up. It's not my cuppa, it's to much like incest for "me".


Example:


Motley and Charlie break up, I've been kickin it with them going on 10 years, Motley is the primary friendship, I gained Chuckles by proxy. If they break up I'm pretty sure any kind of interest of any kind of intimacy is not something I'm going to pursue and vice versa. It's oogy to me to even imagine intimacy with Chuckles cause they're like an in law/family.

It would put drama into my primar relationship(Motley) and truth be told I love her and I'm not willing to risk that kind of love for flirting/sex/curiosity/etc.

If I'm going to flirt with Charlie it's gonna be in front of Mots, she's going to be there aware because we're transparent with eachother. It wouldn't all of a sudden transpire cause she's out of the relationship.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I have another question to pose?

What if a mate has passed away?

Would you mind if your best girlfriend hooked up with your partner if you passed away?

no, I'm dead, I'm going to mind, like, fuck all. I'm dead.


If you wouldn't mind then, then what is the difference between a live ex and a passed away partner?

because I'm dead. I wouldn't have to watch it.

that's really the only issue - watching something that hurts. And that's why you remove yourself from things you do not want to see or agree to space so neither have to watch. Dead is dead. there ain't no watchin or being botherd about anything anymore!

I told "T" that if she died I would be very greatly upset. her response was "I wouldn't care how upset you'd be! I'd be dead!" then laughed. She had a point. So I told her to shut it.

If someone went off with my wife, who I'm in the process of divorcing, I would highly doubt I would Give A Flying Fuck. I'm completely over emotional romantic attachment to her.

However, if my mate and flatmate went off and screwed "T" the last person I had any real feelings for even though most of them have been based on friendship and she has a gf whom I really like and no commitments were ever made... I'd be ravingly upset. Why? because I still have vague fuzzed feelings for her that I'm never bloody sure of what exactly they are.

I actually *told* my flatmate that because "T" has told me on several occations how hot she thinks my flatmate is and how easy it would be to fall in love with her, how anyone would. My flatmate kindly responded "ffs barb, she might well have thought about it in passing but that she tells you every so often means she's taking the piss and trying to get your knickers in a twist. You get jealous of her getting massaged elsewhere. when she was on the table, she talked about Janessa (her acupressurist) till you went toooooootally quiet than asked in that smart ass tone of voice of hers 'you getting jealous?' She tells you that to get you pissy and laugh and poke you and you love it."

never the less, I let her know I would be extremely upset.

She told me it wouldn't happen.

Personally I wouldn't be surpised. But I would also expect her to tell me if they did. I wouldn't de-friend either of them, I have no right to make those kinds of demands and punishments. But I let her know I would. shit happens in the moment. I was verrrrry high and proud about how I'd never do that kind of thing until "T". I lose my resolve around her at times: I get jealous, I want her attention, I love it when she makes me laugh, and I adore her to bits. I can see me very much making an error if I was pushed quite hard.

Which has been a real slice of humble pie to gobble down.

[Words]

I realized you weren't talking about me June, and I realize that I might have a different perspective on things because I'm kind of isolated as a femme. But even though I have no doubt whatsoever that the kind of behaviour you've referred to in your last post does exist, I still think it would be wise to take into account the fact that there are other factors that should sometimes be considered when judging (for want of a better word) those who don't subscribe to the 'never, never in a million years' way of thinking.

Listen, I am incredibly jealous. I am. So much so that one of the things I've said to Blue is that, were I to die, then even though I'd want Hym to be happy with someone else, I wouldn't want Hym to discuss things that were unique to U/us. The intimate stuff. The stuff that was 'O/ours' and O/ours alone...So say Blue and I were to split up (let's make it an amicable divorce since I can't really imagine O/our breaking up any other way). Would it bother me if some time down the line I found out that a best femme friend of mine and Hy were together (not fucking, but together)? Course it would. But would I feel betrayed? By the friend? By Blue? No. I'd feel sad that it hadn't worked out for U/us. I'd feel jealous that someone else was now taking my place. But, because I love Blue and want Hym to be happy, and because I'm assuming that I'd also love and trust my best femme friend and that she would be capable of making Hym happy, then I would console myself by believing that within T/their new relationship, T/they'd B/both show respect for the memory, if you will, of the relationship that was once Blue and mine's. (Though, I do have to admit, I'd probably move to another county so as to not have to witness their newfound happiness so clearly, this hypothetical situation isn't something I'd actually enjoy. Far from it.)

Naive? Perhaps. Not entirely true? Hard to say since I doubt it will ever happen. But at this point in time, that's the way that I feel.

Words

P.S. Sorry June, posted after you did.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I thought about boy of weather kissing June Daddy on the neck in that kinda way I get kissed and it made me a little sad. I'd have to leave the room or turn off the computer if I got in a but but that was my thing head space. I'd be hurt cause well June's my Daddy/Homie/Family, boy of weather eh, what a douche bag for not having better lines.

[imperfect_cupcake]

And as I said to Martina, I am speaking from a personal place of how I do friendships. I get to do that.


Of course you do. But it's also a forum and I can say "weirdo." :P

cause I actually can't wrap my head around the "femme sistah" thing. Eve I love dearly and gets me to the ends of the earth. she's bi with no ID. I don't grasp the concept of her sexuality or ID having anything to do with the friendship. And she gets me way more than many of my friends who happen to ID as femme.

This could be, though, because I don't live in a community that forces my ID into a place that I feel I should take pride in my ID and therefore my ID and what communities I have around it become very important for feelings of being understood. I think local politics may play a big huge role in that, possible. Cause I don't feel misunderstood as a "femme" where I am. So I don't feel any particular "sistahood" to my femme mates. I mean I'm bloody glad for them, but it's not like they corner any particular form of understanding. Whereas, at home, I know I felt quite differently about that. SO it may be our local community access to acceptance in who we are that influences this.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Shit. I must seem so rigid and fussy to everyone, that it's amazing I have any friends at all.

:)

:rrose:

that cuz you iz like hottttttt and I am willing to put up that that for your hottttness.

[Words]

Shit. I must seem so rigid and fussy to everyone, that it's amazing I have any friends at all.

:)

:rrose:

Not rigid or fussy at all June. I wish I had a femme friend like you that didn't live half way round the planet. Truly.

Words

[The_Lady_Snow]

Someone mentioned in the CIJS thread about Femmes having to release exes, I'm not sure how that assumption was made from the discussion being had. Dating/fucking doesn't peg you in an ex category for me.

-----------------------


I'm going to try to articulate what I know has turned into icky sexist stuff.

I'm bothered that the conversation we're having is now in another thread being discussed as if Femmes are holding EXes hostage and now a release the Ex thread needs to be made.

I'm not sure how this conclusion was made from the posts here hence my frustration and post

[Cowboi]

Shit. I must seem so rigid and fussy to everyone, that it's amazing I have any friends at all.

:)

:rrose:

You know da Cowboi luvs ya!!!!! SssssssHHHhhh I don't want Kat to be jealous.

[Words]

Barb -- I CANNOT wait to be on the same Continent with you again because I am totally going to flirt your socks off.

I think it could be anyone. My best friend here in town, E. We have known each other since High School. She's straight and has been married to J, who I also love deeply. If they get a divorce, I'm not going after J. Ever. Even if he won the lottery and offered me a private island and a full staff. E is TOO important to me to lose.

But June....Why are you assuming that you'd lose E? Perhaps you wouldn't. Perhaps she cares about you as much as you care about her and would trust you enough to know that your reason for going after J was an honorable one? I guess a lot depends on the circumstances, but is it totally beyond the realm of possibility that you wouldn't lose you friend?

[Mike]

i need a spread sheet to keep up!

[The_Lady_Snow]

i need a spread sheet to keep up!


Here's a good example!


Sweet is dead, gone, we no longer get to kick it.. I love Mike, he's not hard to look at, but my juices don't flow.

Not cause he's not dateable but because he's my family.


If mike was Sally's ex and I knew Sally from seeing her at The 616 I'd maybe ask him for a date. I doubt sexy time would happen cause I'd end up kicking it like we do now.


Comparability is a must for more than just knucke bump moments.

[Words]

This is an interesting hypothetical:

If E doesn't want J anymore, there's probably, after all this time a really good reason, so why would I want the same hot mess?

Or

If J left E, then why would I risk him having the same behavior with me?

I think I'm too pragmatic for this.

Ah...But say they broke up by mutual agreement because they'd simply grown apart;)

Just kidding June. Honest.

[aishah]

When I say "Femme Sister" it is not a blanket term for ALL Femmes. I am referring to someone that I trust implicitly. I also have family of choice who are Butch and male, as well as straight. Not everyone in my orbit is even Gay.

But here, in this space, for this topic, I am speaking of women with whom I have more than a passing relationship with. The ones that know me beyond screen name and understand how I operate, the good and the not so cute.

I think the difference here is that many of us have been able to develop deep, personal and important relationships with other Femmes and some haven't.

If you're not friends with Medusa and she and Jack break up, I can see why it would feel just fine to move in on that.

I'm sure that road could go a number of ways, another Butch goes after Jack, a Femme goes after Medusa. Some errant Bear steals a car from Yellowstone and drives to Arkansas to woo Medusa back to his OR her cave. But here, in the Femme Zone, I'm talking about Femmes, friendship and loyalty.

i don't think the difference is that some of us have best femme friends/chosen family and some of us don't.

i've been family with my best femme friend since fourth grade and would fly across the country to bail her crazy ass out of jail. i've been with my partner for seven years and known him for over half my life.

if he and i had a messy breakup tomorrow and they started dating next week and i knew nothing about it, to me, that would indicate some serious communication issues that needed to be dealt with immediately (on all sides).

if, after three months or six months, we were actually having good communication and sarah talked to me about it first and they wanted to date, i'd be just fine with that. i'd probably warn them both about what they were getting into first with each other :P i'd still care deeply about them both. i'd still fly across the country to help either of them in a heartbeat. if i had some feelings of jealousy, i'd handle them.

i don't feel that that's morally wrong. or disloyal. or against any code of friendship. or "choosing sexytimes over friendship." or any of the other things people have said in this thread. i don't necessarily think that i have to agree with everyone who is a part of my chosen family on that in order for them to be in my chosen family. i don't think there's any sort of unwritten mutual agreement we need to have about it.

if the situation were reversed, i'd do the same thing - i would talk to that person - whether it was someone i'd known for over half my life or someone i met just this year on the planet or an acquaintance. and if i valued their role in my life and they had super strong feelings about it, i would probably choose not to pursue a relationship with their ex unless they became comfortable with it. but i don't assume they'll react one way or another.

[aishah]

Aishah -- I'm fine with whatever floats your boat. Really. I just don't operate like that, and the people I'm close to don't either. And if they started to get real messy and wreak havoc with a lot of peoples lives, we'd be having a come to Jesus.

I don't like messy. And I don't think there's just one person for anyone. I don't think that any of my close friends partners are my potential soul mate that I can't live without. I don't think any of my Butch or Male friends are my potential soul mate that I can't live without.

I don't care what goes on after I'm dead. Even June has to give up control at some point. ;)

amen! especially to the "just one soul mate." and the giving up control. that sort of thinking even -i- think is weird, LOL.

[aishah]

Someone mentioned in the CIJS thread about Femmes having to release exes, I'm not sure how that assumption was made from the discussion being had. Dating/fucking doesn't peg you in an ex category for me.

-----------------------


I'm going to try to articulate what I know has turned into icky sexist stuff.

I'm bothered that the conversation we're having is now in another thread being discussed as if Femmes are holding EXes hostage and now a release the Ex thread needs to be made.

I'm not sure how this conclusion was made from the posts here hence my frustration and post

yuck. i didn't read this thread as a "releasing exes" issue at all. i also wanted to say - even though i've disagreed with a lot of folks, i'm super grateful to anya for starting the discussion and to june and angie and everyone else who's posted. this is one of the most thought-provoking threads i've read in awhile. it did make me really stop and investigate some deep shit in my own self.

and can people not drag shit from thread to thread. please.

[Martina]

I don't see the scenario Aishah outlined as messy. That's me. I have to say that I haven't been involved in something like that since my twenties, when several friends had similar issues. But I wouldn't even associate it with youth and all that could mean.

I also don't even see it as putting romantic relationships above friendships if that is the overarching issue.

The fact is that rules work until they don't. I make decisions based on circumstances.

There were two situations like this among friends when I was in my twenties. In one case, I supported the friend who felt betrayed by her ex and good friend when they hooked up not long after the friend and her partner had broken up.

In the other, I supported the new couple. In that situation, the offended ex had cheated on her partner when they were together. She had not been a good partner. I felt that her ex deserved a shot at happiness and supported him. He is still with that person. Their eldest just went off to college this Fall.

[girl_dee]

Shit. I must seem so rigid and fussy to everyone, that it's amazing I have any friends at all.

:)

:rrose:

Some of us prefer that in a person. Have you met Syr?

[aishah]

the thing about messiness is...another value that is very important to me personally is growing my friends, family, and community.

so, no, i wouldn't want to make decisions or encourage others to make decisions that might cause discord or cause family or community to break. in the situation with shannon and nick (my friend who set me up with her ex), that actually could have been a big problem because we're all very deeply involved in the same communities locally and they started a community space together that i participate in.

that said, i also know that no family or community can be 100% happy or un-messy or not problematic all the time. to me, avoiding these situations could potentially be more unhealthy than confronting them.

The fact is that rules work until they don't.

yes this!!

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'd be just as upset if Jeff started dating boy of weather, I think it's because my heart is attached, I wouldn't care if Jeff dated TC though, I'd probably invite them to dinner!

Interesting.. I guess right now I can't think of mine being mine cause I like mine and happen to love mine and therefore why it makes me a lil sad to picture boy of weather kissing Jeff, June, Ken, Julie, etc etc kissing them on the neck in that way he do me. Though him taking them to Happy Hour at European Street really makes my head reel. I'd have to call my therapist A LOT!

[*Anya*]

Wow!

Take a several hours off and the discussion heads in fascinating directions!

Awesome! To me, the original intent does not matter nearly as much as the directions this has taken.

It will take me an hour to read all the pages but am headed out to my folks house so it will have to wait.

Thanks all and I have learned a great deal so far.

PS: tonight is the walking dead and dexter so reading all your great posts may take me a while but I will!

[imperfect_cupcake]

for me, utterly: rules work until they don't. I've had some serious eye openers in the last year about situations. I never, ever EVER though I would do polyamorous. Non-monog I didn't want to go back and do again, but I would consider it if pushed. I was recently asked about a poly thing I would have absolutely done. And it shocked the hell out of me.

At the age of 43, I am still shocked at how I can change given situations I had never thought of. Or been in.

I can no longer say "Oh I would *never* do X" because I have finally realised that my weirdo personal god or spirit familiar or talisman or ruling ancestor (all of which I don't believe in but because I don't it's funnier for them, I'm sure) is a Trickster. There is something about my life that resembles a practical joke when I get all up in my own about something. Or make absolutes. I get smacked with a big fat lesson about it. bang.

never ever want to get married cause you don't agree with it? Bang! I'm married. Be absolutely certain, beyond even a shadow of a doubt, that my partner would never, ever cheat or lie because of her high level of integrity? smack! suprise. Never do poly? Bang! guess again. Never do monog? TA DA! Never be the other woman? well look at what you've found yourself in? never EVER do that again!!! Oh *really*??

I could go on and on and on. the only thing I can say now is

"I haven't got a fucking clue what I would do" cause if I'm sure about it, I'll get put in place by that Trickster that follows me around.

And I can be really stubborn and willful. So life has some serious tricks for me up her sleeve.

[Gemme]

As typical for me, I am going against the grain...

Riley and I met because of a mutual friend. They were dating; she and I were friends. He and I barely spoke b/c we do not live in the same city/state-actually none of us did. Their relationship ended and she moved on to a new relationship. He and I became better friends and eventually ended up together.

I am not saying it is right or wrong. But, love happens. And I believe that the further we are from the mainstream, the harder it is for us to find someone. If those in my local community had an absolute hands-off rule regarding an ex, we would all be single. It is unreal how hard it is to find a partner who is gay AND into D/s. One or the other is not easy but add the two and you really increase the difficulty.

We have yet to run into his ex. She is no longer friends with her, by her choice, and I am not taking away from her right to feel betrayed.

I think that there are a huge amount of variables that come into play...

~How long were they together? One month is a lot different from one year.

~Who broke up with who and why? If things ended b/c they just simply did not mesh that is one thing.

~How long have they been apart? Again, one month is a lot different from one year.

~How close were the separate friendships? If Femme W and Femme X were childhood friends that is much different than Femme Y and Femme Z who do not have an extensive history.

:sparklyheart:

I'll walk this road with you, Laney, as I have dated, lived with and loved a sister femme's ex.

I'm gonna name names too, because this person X and person U and person Y stuff makes me beserk and also because this isn't badmouthing/trashing/etc. In fact, it's the opposite.

Arwen and Ebon talked me into it. I was not okay with it at first. But THEY were okay with it and with one another. That made the difference for me. If there was anything romantic or unfinished business or bad blood between them, it would have been a no go. But both of them had great seats aboard the adult train and gave me the chance to ride it with them for a little while.

Did it feel awkward and weird at first? Yes. Am I likely to do that again? Most likely not, because those two people are so spectacular, I don't think any other situation like that would work with anyone else.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Thank you all for the great, hard, thoughtful conversation! It's been really great being a part of it:) mad props to all you great Femmes!

[Gemme]

I have another question to pose?

What if a mate has passed away?

Would you mind if your best girlfriend hooked up with your partner if you passed away?

If you wouldn't mind then, then what is the difference between a live ex and a passed away partner?

My thoughts are:

I want my friends happy

I want my ex's (after the period of wishing them to be devoured by flesh eating demons has passed) happy...

Every one of my relationships ended because my then partner and I were not a good match... Why would I want to prevent a possible good match where both my ex and my friend found a life time love? or even just a really good time...

Would it bother me, hurt me? ya, but that's my issue... I have possession issues and if someone was once mine, then they are always mine... But I know that's not real, not healthy, and not true... It's my issue and I deal with it...

The possibility of real ever lasting real mother fucking love is slim... I'm lucky to have tasted real love twice.. I wouldn't want to be the one that stood in two other people's way... even if it hurt like hell...

Oh, for fuck's sake. What am I going to do with you and that brain of yours, girl?

If I'm dead and can't see/feel/know what's going on, it doesn't matter.

If I'm dead and I am able to keep an eye on things and like what's happening and who's dating and doing who(m), then goody goody gumdrops for everyone. I'll make it rain big, fat lollipops.

If I'm dead and I am able to keep an eye on things and I don't like my ex's new girl or guy, I'm totally haunting their asses cuz I'm evil and bitchy like that.

:eyebat:

[girl_dee]

Oh, for fuck's sake. What am I going to do with you and that brain of yours, girl?

If I'm dead and can't see/feel/know what's going on, it doesn't matter.

If I'm dead and I am able to keep an eye on things and like what's happening and who's dating and doing who(m), then goody goody gumdrops for everyone. I'll make it rain big, fat lollipops.

If I'm dead and I am able to keep an eye on things and I don't like my ex's new girl or guy, I'm totally haunting their asses cuz I'm evil and bitchy like that.

:eyebat:



i've requested that if i should die, that Syr never date another, because i would come back and cut the bitch. :eyebat:

[princessbelle]

i've requested that if i should die, that Syr never date another, because i would come back and cut the bitch. :eyebat:


If i die...

I would actually LOVE Bully to re-cohabitate with the whinyest, weirdest, funniest, craziest, big babyish, non normal femme she could find.

She's happy with that.

I'm living proof.

[Medusa]

I have betrothed Jackhammer to one of my girlfriends. She (my girlfriend) doesn't know it yet. :)

[Martina]

If Adele goes queer, I am first in line.

[JustJo]

If Adele goes queer, I am first in line.

If she is....I think it's a pretty long line already. :)

[BullDog]

If i die...

I would actually LOVE Bully to re-cohabitate with the whinyest, weirdest, funniest, craziest, big babyish, non normal femme she could find.

She's happy with that.

I'm living proof.

Sorry, you are irreplaceable. Death is not an option.

While I am here... poor boundaries can cause a lot of problems beyond just a couple and their exes. I have seen someone new introduced into a real time circle of friends via dating who had poor boundaries not only with exes but also with friends that caused a lot of issues. When there is a small community the dating pool may be small, but it also makes it even more important to respect those in your friendship and chosen family circle. Otherwise there can be lots of problems. Most of us don't date in a vacuum. There are usually others to consider. So respect and consideration for others is key when starting to date someone new.

[Nomad]

I have another question to pose?

What if a mate has passed away?

Would you mind if your best girlfriend hooked up with your partner if you passed away?

If you wouldn't mind then, then what is the difference between a live ex and a passed away partner?

My thoughts are:

I want my friends happy

I want my ex's (after the period of wishing them to be devoured by flesh eating demons has passed) happy...

Every one of my relationships ended because my then partner and I were not a good match... Why would I want to prevent a possible good match where both my ex and my friend found a life time love? or even just a really good time...

Would it bother me, hurt me? ya, but that's my issue... I have possession issues and if someone was once mine, then they are always mine... But I know that's not real, not healthy, and not true... It's my issue and I deal with it...

The possibility of real ever lasting real mother fucking love is slim... I'm lucky to have tasted real love twice.. I wouldn't want to be the one that stood in two other people's way... even if it hurt like hell...



yanno, i often suspect that if i died people would find themselves breathing a secretive sigh of relief because they were safe at last. or is that free at last? (scratching head) either way. i say date whomever you like. life is short. i mean, i'm dead so obviously my life was shorter than yours but you get my point, yes? what?! you want i should come back and haunt you until you have no other way to be rid of me but to date? oy! date already! (shaking head) so much narrischkeit. you dont have enough to worry about alive without getting verklemptisch over who dates who when you're dead?! personally, i say if you find someone who can make a decent knish and doesnt talk about their colon too much you should marry 'em! everything else is window dressing.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm a micromanager so when I had surgery recently I stopped to think about my property, I'd not had that thought regarding boy of weather and I was like :|. So we sat down and I made the arrangements I know who I leave him with will love and protect him pretty close to what I do, plus he'd have reinforcements at anytime because I'd ask my family be it chosen or not to please always make sure everything ok. I'm not clutching to my property out of a selfish need, where ever whenever I'll know that if mine need something anything from a hug to a safe place to sleep mine will have it. If mine find another I'll rest better knowing that a good sniffer will guide mine safe. The happiness and safety led me to this decision, I went into surgery knowing everyone in my pack was safe and that I loved them.

As a Sadist I secretly wish I could come back and scare the fuck out of my slaves while in some form of service so they'd fuck it up and either restart or have a lot of explaining to do.

That though may belong in the BDSM zone!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Or maybe the listening thread :|

[girl_dee]

I'm a micromanager so when I had surgery recently I stopped to think about my property, I'd not had that thought regarding boy of weather and I was like :|. So we sat down and I made the arrangements I know who I leave him with will love and protect him pretty close to what I do, plus he'd have reinforcements at anytime because I'd ask my family be it chosen or not to please always make sure everything ok. I'm not clutching to my property out of a selfish need, where ever whenever I'll know that if mine need something anything from a hug to a safe place to sleep mine will have it. If mine find another I'll rest better knowing that a good sniffer will guide mine safe. The happiness and safety led me to this decision, I went into surgery knowing everyone in my pack was safe and that I loved them.

As a Sadist I secretly wish I could come back and scare the fuck out of my slaves while in some form of service so they'd fuck it up and either restart or have a lot of explaining to do.

That though may belong in the BDSM zone!


Holy heck Snow, this is one of the most impacting posts i've ever read.

[Mike]

Can someone give me the list of who I can date? At this point i think its gotten shorter, I had to scratch off Snow and Weatherboi, Jack and Medusa, June and Kat.

[julieisafemme]

I applaud you for this Lady Snow. It is very hard for for people to plan for what might happen if they were to die or become incapacitated. I would hope that Greyson would move on and find love if something were to happen to me (G-d forbid). Taking care of those we love to me means thinking of all enventualities, be it financial, spiritual, emotional or anything else.

I think that I have experienced the hurt of watching someone I loved move on without me. As I age it hurts less and those breakups have brought me to where I am now and that is a very happy place!


I'm a micromanager so when I had surgery recently I stopped to think about my property, I'd not had that thought regarding boy of weather and I was like :|. So we sat down and I made the arrangements I know who I leave him with will love and protect him pretty close to what I do, plus he'd have reinforcements at anytime because I'd ask my family be it chosen or not to please always make sure everything ok. I'm not clutching to my property out of a selfish need, where ever whenever I'll know that if mine need something anything from a hug to a safe place to sleep mine will have it. If mine find another I'll rest better knowing that a good sniffer will guide mine safe. The happiness and safety led me to this decision, I went into surgery knowing everyone in my pack was safe and that I loved them.

As a Sadist I secretly wish I could come back and scare the fuck out of my slaves while in some form of service so they'd fuck it up and either restart or have a lot of explaining to do.

That though may belong in the BDSM zone!

[Soft*Silver]

good luck to chrissy if I should die. He may date or fuck or sub to anyone he would chose, but to do so in honor of my love for him. I dont want him out there doing destructive stuff. I want him to be happy and saited and safe.

I am changing my deed to my house. It is going to have him on it as part owner and I am taking my daughter off as the person it goes to if I should die. If you follow my posts you will know why. She would never care for him and would sell the house out from under him and render him homeless if I pass before him. This will not happen if I can help it. I suggest everyone look into property matters NOW for your loved ones...

[DapperButch]

good luck to chrissy if I should die. He may date or fuck or sub to anyone he would chose, but to do so in honor of my love for him. I dont want him out there doing destructive stuff. I want him to be happy and saited and safe.

I am changing my deed to my house. It is going to have him on it as part owner and I am taking my daughter off as the person it goes to if I should die. If you follow my posts you will know why. She would never care for him and would sell the house out from under him and render him homeless if I pass before him. This will not happen if I can help it. I suggest everyone look into property matters NOW for your loved ones...

I just had to come in here and mention something. When you do break up with someone, don't forget to reassess any beneficiary status they may have regarding your life insurance, retirement accounts, etc. Also when you have any shifts in your relationships that could impact beneficiares, you shold do the same. Don't trust, it is sad, but don't trust that your relative or partner will follow through on your requests. Loss does weird shit to people.

This is what I think about when I think about dying....I think about TF being covered financially. I made sure my sister and TF knew about all accounts and all monies, plus all posessions regarding beneficiaries, prior to my surgery two years ago...even down to who my dog should go to.

To answer the love question, of course I would want her to find a great love.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Can someone give me the list of who I can date? At this point i think its gotten shorter, I had to scratch off Snow and Weatherboi, Jack and Medusa, June and Kat.



I'm ok if you and boy of weather date, he on the other hand may be like

:canadian:

It may have to do with you may not look good in héels and a pencil skirt!

[Mike]

I'm ok if you and boy of weather date, he on the other hand may be like

:canadian:

It may have to do with you may not look good in héels and a pencil skirt!


i know its close to Halloween, but that will never ever happen, but it was the funniest thing I heard all day.
I think we can just go for a drink as buds, all of us.

[Breathless]

In reference to the original thread topic.. for me it comes down to self respect.. I could not bring myself to ever hit on a good friends ex, no matter the time passed. If it was someone that they went on a date with once back in the 80's, that is different, but i would still be respectful of my friend. If it was someone that they were serious about, cried on my shoulder about, not happening. They are off limits. Further to that, I have a personal rule for myself, that I stick to, and it is that i will never sit at a party with my mate and have been with any of their friends. To me, it just lacks class. Yes it happens for some, small circles of friends, our population only being 11% ish.. but id rather be single if that was the only other option. It is not so much femme code for me, as I find it rarely exists in its intended purpose but rather when it suits one party or another. I have found even a few times here that I would be talking to someone, to find out that they are also talking to a friend of mine, and I back off, I just cant do that to my friend.

As to the other topic, I have always jokingly said... after a respectable amount of time has passed.. please by all means, date, find happy, that would make me very happy to know that you are not sitting there alone thinking i would not approve. But .. you now know what happy feels like, dont settle for anything less... and if you start dating while my grave is still warm.. ill curse you to life of shitty sex and haunt your sorry disrespecting ass....

[Greyson]

If I go before Julie, I would hope she take some time to heal and be of sound mind and heart before she opens herself to the next one. She deserves a person that will love her and be a decent partner.

If Julie goes before me, I think I am done. Dating would be okay but no more "partner" love relationships. I will get a dog and live the bachelor life.

[LaneyDoll]

Back to the "if I die" thing (I have been out tonight so I am jumping into THAT late)...

I have a separate life insurance policy on me where Riley is the beneficiary. I told the insurance guy that "I want something IRONCLAD" that no one can break. So, I have a policy that will allow him to finish school and continue on his path of self-betterment.

I have two other policies besides that one. One is the small one that covers my final expenses and the other is for the kids so that I know they can go to college, put a down payment on a home etc. And, with their policies, the alt beneficiary is someone that I KNOW will do as I ask.

But, back to Riley. I would want him to move on and be with the person who made him happy. And if it was one of my friends, I would just hope it was one of the ones who I know will take care of him as well as I try to do.

:sparklyheart:

[Talon]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion regarding this, of course...But no.
There are just waaay tooo many fish in the sea, for me to ever need to do that. Whether the individual was a good friend or a not-so-good friend..that's an iron-clad "No-No". Sisters before Misters, always.

[Rockinonahigh]

I agree with this. Someone having a fresh break-up of a month or two is quite different than a 10-year break-up! Not to mention the battery of grabbing!

That is a call to :police: !

I agree I should have done more to the x friend,I did give him a big chunk of my mind about this so he backed off.At the time his partner now wife was a college friend of mine so I let the crap go for sake of the friendship...not so shure I would do it now even if we were still friends.

[Dance-with-me]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion regarding this, of course...But no.
There are just waaay tooo many fish in the sea, for me to ever need to do that. Whether the individual was a good friend or a not-so-good friend..that's an iron-clad "No-No". Sisters before Misters, always.
This conversation has taken so many different directions that I hope you don't mind my asking - are you saying that you wouldn't date or flirt with someone just because they were the ex of a casual acquaintance, whose name and face you happened to know and whose path you sometimes crossed socially, but who was not someone with whom you had any close personal friendship?

I'm not at all challenging anyone who would choose that - each to her own, certainly! I just am curious as to whether or not that's what you meant.

[Angeltoes]

This conversation has taken so many different directions that I hope you don't mind my asking - are you saying that you wouldn't date or flirt with someone just because they were the ex of a casual acquaintance, whose name and face you happened to know and whose path you sometimes crossed socially, but who was not someone with whom you had any close personal friendship?

I'm not at all challenging anyone who would choose that - each to her own, certainly! I just am curious as to whether or not that's what you meant.

I just got a kick out of the 'Sisters before Misters' line. That's the thing though, if it's a sister the ex is off limits. If it's a casual acquaintance then probably not.

[Dance-with-me]

Yes, I like that line "sisters before misters" as well - and believe in it!! My friends mean the world to me, and I am unquestionably loyal to them -- but at the same time, even with the very best of my friends, THEY are responsible for managing and communicating their limits and boundaries, not me.

The main thing is that I am just not at all understanding why someone might feel the same about the ex of a casual acquaintances. I would never advocate deliberately pushing something in someone's face in order to be hurtful - even if she were an enemy, that says something about you and not them if you were to do that. But I honestly just don't get choosing to feel as if the ex of a casual acquaintance is off-limits just because your social circles happen to overlap, and taking on the responsibility to protect the feelings of an acquaintance who split with someone a couple of months before. Her feelings and boundaries are her responsibility to manage, not mine. I'm not even saying that her feelings of hurt at seeing her ex's interest in someone else would be at all invalid -- but they're still her responsibility, not mine, not even the ex's.

[Rockinonahigh]

Back when I was in the straight life I was headed to work one morning when a state trooper car pulled me over,lights flashing sirens blowing to wake the dead.I had no clue why cause I knew I was doing the speed limit and all my lights worked.Low and behold it was a casual friends bio hubby,the dam dick head hit me up for a sexy night out while his wife was staying with her sick mom.I told hime his wifes friendship was worth more to me that a night out with him or anyone and to buzz off.This was a long time before thay had mounted cams and mics in the patrole cars so I really didnt have any proof of this,but I did mention it to my uncle who was a federal marshal the next week this guy was asingned to desk duty untill further notice.I never did mention it to his wife but did find out a long time later he had been doing this for a while with others,it did cost him his badge and job eventualy.
I have a hard and fast rule about dateing my friends exes, even if its someones I casualy know cause I dont want any crap from breakups falling on me or probs with a friendship over said break up.It all comes from respect for myself and my friends.

[Martina]

Well, I don't date "misters," and I do sometimes date "sisters." But whatever.

In my world -- queer and leather -- the dating pool is somewhat smaller. I am also poly. So some of the intensity around this escapes me.

For the most part, however, I am not interested in close friends' partners. I know too damned much about them. I have good friends whose partners I love. (Unfortunately, one of those couples is getting divorced.) But, in general, my good friends don't pick as *I* would choose for them. Their partners aren't good enough for them because my friends are so fucking fabulous that it would take an angel to merit their attentions. And they usually do not date angels.

So after hearing all the stories about the partners, I am not really that interested in them. I'd be like, yeah, try that shit with ME and see how it works out.

[girl_dee]

Well, I don't date "misters," and I do sometimes date "sisters." But whatever.

In my world -- queer and leather -- the dating pool is somewhat smaller. I am also poly. So some of the intensity around this escapes me.

For the most part, however, I am not interested in close friends' partners. I know too damned much about them. I have good friends whose partners I love. (Unfortunately, one of those couples is getting divorced.) But, in general, my good friends don't pick as *I* would choose for them. Their partners aren't good enough for them because my friends are so fucking fabulous that it would take an angel to merit their attentions. And they usually do not date angels.

So after hearing all the stories about the partners, I am not really that interested in them. I'd be like, yeah, try that shit with ME and see how it works out.


i kinda feel this way too.. but sometimes two good people just don't make a good match.. but from my experience most of my femmefriendsisters left someone for a good reason, and i sure as heck don't would not want to even think about inviting that mess into my life..many times i've encouraged them to move and find happiness... so that would be beyond weird.

[Talon]

This conversation has taken so many different directions that I hope you don't mind my asking - are you saying that you wouldn't date or flirt with someone just because they were the ex of a casual acquaintance, whose name and face you happened to know and whose path you sometimes crossed socially, but who was not someone with whom you had any close personal friendship?

I'm not at all challenging anyone who would choose that - each to her own, certainly! I just am curious as to whether or not that's what you meant.


I certainly don't mind you asking. I think it would depend upon how serious their relationship had been and also how long it had lasted. (in regards to a passing, casual aquantance).
I try not to cause harm to those who are in "romantic mourning". Generally, I think that people need time to go through that whole process (on both ends)..so I wouldn't want to get involved in that situation in any form, until some time had passed.

[Talon]

Well, I don't date "misters," and I do sometimes date "sisters." But whatever.

In my world -- queer and leather -- the dating pool is somewhat smaller. I am also poly. So some of the intensity around this escapes me.

For the most part, however, I am not interested in close friends' partners. I know too damned much about them. I have good friends whose partners I love. (Unfortunately, one of those couples is getting divorced.) But, in general, my good friends don't pick as *I* would choose for them. Their partners aren't good enough for them because my friends are so fucking fabulous that it would take an angel to merit their attentions. And they usually do not date angels.

So after hearing all the stories about the partners, I am not really that interested in them. I'd be like, yeah, try that shit with ME and see how it works out.

*chuckle*

To each their own and all that... but, it was only a figure of speech..not literal.

[Dance-with-me]

I certainly don't mind you asking. I think it would depend upon how serious their relationship had been and also how long it had lasted. (in regards to a passing, casual aquantance).
I try not to cause harm to those who are in "romantic mourning". Generally, I think that people need time to go through that whole process (on both ends)..so I wouldn't want to get involved in that situation in any form, until some time had passed.
OK, I understand that - but how much of that is your responsibility and how much is hers? How are you supposed to be able to figure out how much time has passed before she is strong enough to see her ex moving on - presuming that she has chosen to be someplace where both she and her ex are socializing? Especially if you don't really know her and therefore don't know the dynamics of their relationship or of their breakup, you don't know what they've agreed to, you don't know if she's someone who takes responsibility for her own emotions or if she's someone who is going to seek out and project drama no matter how far she has to reach for it? Does she get to decide that two months is not enough time? Six months? A year? And if she decides that, how are you supposed to know what she has set as her boundary? Again, I'm speaking of an acquaintance, not a friend, and I'm just not seeing how I could ever make myself responsible for protecting an acquaintance's feelings - that's HER responsibility, and TO ME (as someone who has a long history as an enabler, btw, and has finally learned that it's not my job to fix or protect everyone) there's no way at all that I can take on that responsibility.

I'm also not including the situation alluded to in the friend's cop husband story -- he was just being a creepy a**hole. So if I knew that this ex was just being a callous jerk, then that's a whole different ball game -- but I'm still basing my decisions on my perceptions of the person who is trying to flirt with me, NOT on my sense of needing to protect that person's ex.

[Blaze]

Wow, this is a very interesting and informational thread...
It sheds light and as for the counter part that it's speaking of, actually makes me kind of nervous. Speaking only because of being with my partner for 9 years. I don't know where I would fit. If we broke up. I am shy around woman, I don't know if someone is hitting on me because I am clueless that way. Because I am so clueless she had to spell it out to me that she liked me before I even caught on and jumped into this relationship. I would have to learn to date again, oh my, now that's scary!
But this thread brings to light that perhaps I would be alone. Hmmm, You Ladies sure do know what you want. That's awesome! Guess I would need to start searching outside of the network...

I know, I know, get out Blaze...

[Talon]

OK, I understand that - but how much of that is your responsibility and how much is hers? How are you supposed to be able to figure out how much time has passed before she is strong enough to see her ex moving on - presuming that she has chosen to be someplace where both she and her ex are socializing? Especially if you don't really know her and therefore don't know the dynamics of their relationship or of their breakup, you don't know what they've agreed to, you don't know if she's someone who takes responsibility for her own emotions or if she's someone who is going to seek out and project drama no matter how far she has to reach for it? Does she get to decide that two months is not enough time? Six months? A year? And if she decides that, how are you supposed to know what she has set as her boundary? Again, I'm speaking of an acquaintance, not a friend, and I'm just not seeing how I could ever make myself responsible for protecting an acquaintance's feelings - that's HER responsibility, and TO ME (as someone who has a long history as an enabler, btw, and has finally learned that it's not my job to fix or protect everyone) there's no way at all that I can take on that responsibility.

I'm also not including the situation alluded to in the friend's cop husband story -- he was just being a creepy a**hole. So if I knew that this ex was just being a callous jerk, then that's a whole different ball game -- but I'm still basing my decisions on my perceptions of the person who is trying to flirt with me, NOT on my sense of needing to protect that person's ex.

Only speaking for myself here, but I don't get all up in my head about it. I can only use my intuition served with a side of common sense. The reality is, is that no one truly knows that ideal time. I don't neccessarily think about it as a responsibility at all. I just try to go by what I *think* is right..and what I *feel* is right. Then, *I* can live with whatever decision *I've* made.
It actually kinda has a selfish aspect to it..*chuckle*
For me, It's NOT about being an enabler or babysitting another's feelings.
This is how I would proceed in any situation...for the simple fact that I don't enjoy regrets, in any form.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Well, I don't date "misters," and I do sometimes date "sisters." But whatever.

In my world -- queer and leather -- the dating pool is somewhat smaller. I am also poly. So some of the intensity around this escapes me.
------------------------------------------------------------------

I like you don't date just "misters" and sometimes love to date some "sisters" also like you I am queer and leather, but when it comes to *DATING* I tend to be flexible till I'm not. That means in *DATING* that I am not going to necessarily *ONLY* date leatherfolk, and since *dating* doesn't need to, have to, go further than simply dating my pools don't feel so small.




For the most part, however, I am not interested in close friends' partners. I know too damned much about them. I have good friends whose partners I love. (Unfortunately, one of those couples is getting divorced.) But, in general, my good friends don't pick as *I* would choose for them. Their partners aren't good enough for them because my friends are so fucking fabulous that it would take an angel to merit their attentions. And they usually do not date angels.

So after hearing all the stories about the partners, I am not really that interested in them. I'd be like, yeah, try that shit with ME and see how it works out.

Dating friends partners no matter how amicable the break up can lead to unnecessary messy stuff that I personally don't want to be bothered with. If say Carmela breaks up with that girl that I saw her with that one time at El Tapatio eating eating Menudo and I've not sat privy to Carmela's and Olga's fights, sex life, differences, etc I may date her only because Carmela is someone I know from hanging out at El Tapatio and not from kicking it back with and chit chatting online or via telephone, email, text, homing pigeon, smoke signals etc.

Dating depends on the person's interpretation of what dating is just that. Dating.

Dating Olga though I know who Carmela isn't some crime, but dating Margaret's husband after their break up is not something I am gonna even do because well

A. I don't date that kinda guy

B. Sancho is Republican

C. Sancho is straight

D. Margaret is my friend and I like her more than him, he came along with the package.

[QueenofSmirks]

...
I try not to cause harm to those who are in "romantic mourning"....


This struck me as something significant. In the original post, the scenario was of an acquaintance, and many posts since then have touched on the possibility that an acquaintance might not know enough about Person A to know if she's hurt or over her ex. I think what you said above also brings up the point that everyone's definition of "doing harm" might vary. Many of the posts here stated that flirting is just that... flirting...and therefore, harmless. It isn't dating, it isn't having sex, it's flirting. To others that's a cardinal sin. So, I guess my point is that everything is relative and subjective. Someone not adhering to the "femme code" may not be acting out of malice, but out of a place that flirting is harmless.

[The_Lady_Snow]

This struck me as something significant. In the original post, the scenario was of an acquaintance, and many posts since then have touched on the possibility that an acquaintance might not know enough about Person A to know if she's hurt or over her ex. I think what you said above also brings up the point that everyone's definition of "doing harm" might vary. Many of the posts here stated that flirting is just that... flirting...and therefore, harmless. It isn't dating, it isn't having sex, it's flirting. To others that's a cardinal sin. So, I guess my point is that everything is relative and subjective. Someone not adhering to the "femme code" may not be acting out of malice, but out of a place that flirting is harmless.


Flirting is harmless! I always get confused why folks (general) confuse flirting, crushings, being nice as "HEY I WANNA MARRY YOU"


Flirting is simply that a short, instantaneous quick exchange of body language, words or looks with or without intent because sometimes flirting is started with the attempt to capture much more than just a moment.

[princessbelle]

This struck me as something significant. In the original post, the scenario was of an acquaintance, and many posts since then have touched on the possibility that an acquaintance might not know enough about Person A to know if she's hurt or over her ex. I think what you said above also brings up the point that everyone's definition of "doing harm" might vary. Many of the posts here stated that flirting is just that... flirting...and therefore, harmless. It isn't dating, it isn't having sex, it's flirting. To others that's a cardinal sin. So, I guess my point is that everything is relative and subjective. Someone not adhering to the "femme code" may not be acting out of malice, but out of a place that flirting is harmless.

Bouncing off this....The significant difference would be if you have very VERY close femme friends or butch friends or whatever ID tight, "chosen family" friends, would know what line to not cross. I know *my* special chosen ones would as well as they know i would.

If it is an acquaintance, i believe, all bets are off. They wouldn't know the situation at all and it's not my responsibility to tell them nor is it theirs to steer clear if they don't want to. Femme or not femme. I figure things all come out in the wash eventually anyway. The peeps close to us know what went wrong to begin with, most of the time, and as others have said, would most likely steer clear.

Even with light flirting, there is a fine line that is never crossed with my select few of tighties. It's just respect for their relationships as well as respect for my own. It's not anything some of us would even have to think about...it's just natural.

But, kidding around flirting? Of course we do it sometimes. It's all in fun...again, boundaries, respect. It's not complicated.

That's how i feel about it anyway.

[Rockinonahigh]

Flirting is harmless! I always get confused why folks (general) confuse flirting, crushings, being nice as "HEY I WANNA MARRY YOU"


Flirting is simply that a short, instantaneous quick exchange of body language, words or looks with or without intent because sometimes flirting is started with the attempt to capture much more than just a moment.

Snow Im with u on this statement about peopel thinking if u are flirting with them its a near walk down the isle or to hook up some way.This is the reason I dont say much when i'm out at he gay bars or in a group.I knolw what I am saying to people but dam some folks have the ablity to turn it into something else.

[girl_dee]

Snow Im with u on this statement about peopel thinking if u are flirting with them its a near walk down the isle or to hook up some way.This is the reason I dont say much when i'm out at he gay bars or in a group.I knolw what I am saying to people but dam some folks have the ablity to turn it into something else.

Yeah once a woman said *i like you dee* and i said * awwww i like you too*...

i later found out i was engaged. :|

[Rockinonahigh]

Yeah once a woman said *i like you dee* and i said * awwww i like you too*...

i later found out i was engaged. :|


I met theis cute red head one night I bought her two drinks an danced with her once,we had a bare conversation while I was waiting on someone.Two day's later she showed up at my door school books and baggage to walk right in,I told her to get back in her car and go home I already had a roomie,then shut the door.Some people are just to dersprate.

[Talon]

This struck me as something significant. In the original post, the scenario was of an acquaintance, and many posts since then have touched on the possibility that an acquaintance might not know enough about Person A to know if she's hurt or over her ex. I think what you said above also brings up the point that everyone's definition of "doing harm" might vary. Many of the posts here stated that flirting is just that... flirting...and therefore, harmless. It isn't dating, it isn't having sex, it's flirting. To others that's a cardinal sin. So, I guess my point is that everything is relative and subjective. Someone not adhering to the "femme code" may not be acting out of malice, but out of a place that flirting is harmless.



>Well of course, we're all unique beings (obviously), so everything is ultimately subjective according to one's individual perspective, as well as their own personal life experiences.

I was asked my opinion, therefore I gave it.

Yeah, I actually *do* know what flirting is.

And sure, sometimes it is indeed harmless...but not always...and I think that most people can understand the difference between the two.

I also was not aware that "others" thought harmless flirting was a "CARDINAL SIN".

[QueenofSmirks]

>Well of course, we're all unique beings (obviously), so everything is ultimately subjective according to one's individual perspective, as well as their own personal life experiences.

I was asked my opinion, therefore I gave it.

Yeah, I actually *do* know what flirting is.

And sure, sometimes it is indeed harmless...but not always...and I think that most people can understand the difference between the two.

I also was not aware that "others" thought harmless flirting was a "CARDINAL SIN".

Talon, your post sounds as if it's coming from a defensive place. My post was a compliment to your statement, which I felt was positively significant, and important enough to expand upon. The rest of what I said in my post was not directed at you, or about you. I'm sorry you took it that way and felt the need to respond as such.

[Talon]

Talon, your post sounds as if it's coming from a defensive place. My post was a compliment to your statement, which I felt was positively significant, and important enough to expand upon. The rest of what I said in my post was not directed at you, or about you. I'm sorry you took it that way and felt the need to respond as such.

I didn't think that it was directed towards me personally, and I'm sorry that you felt that I was acting defensive towards you. But, I don't understand how you would even know how I was taking something. After all, this is an on-line forum, and you and I don't even know each other.
So please don't be sorry, because I didn't take your post as..anything like you seem to think I did.
If my east coast bluntness came across a little too harsh in my last post..it was not intended.



:olive:

[QueenofSmirks]

I didn't think that it was directed towards me personally, and I'm sorry that you felt that I was acting defensive towards you. But, I don't understand how you would even know how I was taking something. After all, this is an on-line forum, and you and I don't even know each other.
So please don't be sorry, because I didn't take your post as..anything like you seem to think I did.
If my east coast bluntness came across a little too harsh in my last post..it was not intended.

:olive:

I don't know about anyone else, but I've been involved in online forums with hundreds of people I don't know. I don't need to *know* someone to interpret what their words mean *to me*. I was very careful in writing that it *sounded* as if your post was coming from a defensive place. Obviously, I was wrong. But at no time did I imply to *know* how you were taking something, nor did I state or feel that you were acting defensive toward me. Normally I wouldn't bother to make these small points but I don't like being misunderstood any more than anyone else does.

[gaea]

I have been reading the last few pages wow how one topic can pose so many different questions....So I have one of my own now this is theoretical and or hypothetical so keep that in mind and I will use letters to represent person's...

Persons A & B are in a relationship that lasts less than 1 year and they break up.

Person A begins dating several people up to an including sex etc.

Person B is seen at a party flirting with Person C who does not know person A at all

so here is my question

Does person C owe "femme" code to person A because they happen to be at the same party? if so why?

Does person A at any time owe anything to person B?

Considering Person A is dating/flirting/ having sexual relations with another and or many others.

Who owes what to whom in this scenario and why?

[aishah]

i don't think anyone owes anyone anything automatically. that's why i like to talk shit to death. because to me it's a million times easier than assuming that everyone has the same expectations in a given situation (or assuming you have the same definition of "like" and ending up engaged...i LOLed!). and it holds true for almost every situation. it might mean that i'm really annoying, but it works.

[JustJo]

I have been reading the last few pages wow how one topic can pose so many different questions....So I have one of my own now this is theoretical and or hypothetical so keep that in mind and I will use letters to represent person's...

Persons A & B are in a relationship that lasts less than 1 year and they break up.

Person A begins dating several people up to an including sex etc.

Person B is seen at a party flirting with Person C who does not know person A at all

so here is my question

Does person C owe "femme" code to person A because they happen to be at the same party? if so why?

Does person A at any time owe anything to person B?

Considering Person A is dating/flirting/ having sexual relations with another and or many others.

Who owes what to whom in this scenario and why?

For me, there's no hard and fast rule about any of it because the core issue isn't how long a relationship lasted, how many people an ex is dating, etc. For me, the core issue is simply this...if I have been in a relationship with someone and professed to care about them and their well-being, and we have broken up and they are in pain or struggling with it, then I'm not gonna jam my new love up in their face.

For me, it's about respecting the people that you once professed to love.

I don't think new partners "owe" anything...because the responsibility for the ended relationship isn't (presumably) on them unless they were an instigator in the breakup.

Again, just for me, it's about tact and respect and compassion.

Time itself isn't the issue. If my best friend breaks up with her partner, then that partner is not a prospective date or partner for me for life....just because it would feel too strange to me, even if my best friend claimed to be okay with it.

Having said that, I have exes that I would happily send off with a letter of recommendation and a batch of cookies to the next person that could presumably make them happier than I did...and just smile if I saw them smooching it up on the dance floor.

I think we're all intelligent enough to know when our ex is still hurting or struggling. As a friend of mine says "it's not rocket surgery." Breakups leave us all (I assume) raw and hurting.

Now.....if significant time goes by and the ex is freaking out if we are simply respectfully moving on.....then they need to get into some counseling, talk to their friends, or do whatever else they need to do to deal with their own feelings.

[princessbelle]

I have been reading the last few pages wow how one topic can pose so many different questions....So I have one of my own now this is theoretical and or hypothetical so keep that in mind and I will use letters to represent person's...

Persons A & B are in a relationship that lasts less than 1 year and they break up.

Person A begins dating several people up to an including sex etc.

Person B is seen at a party flirting with Person C who does not know person A at all

so here is my question

Does person C owe "femme" code to person A because they happen to be at the same party? if so why?

Does person A at any time owe anything to person B? Owe them anything? I'm not understanding.

Considering Person A is dating/flirting/ having sexual relations with another and or many others.

Who owes what to whom in this scenario and why?

You say person C and person A don't know each other? Is there a secret "code" just because they are femmes? I, personally, would say heck no, of course not. C doesn't know A therefore there is no need to back off and not go forward and likewise C doesn't know A therefore does not owe C an explanation or warning to tell he/she to steer clear for whatever reason. I mean, it ended with A and B. There has to be a reason. It works both ways in my opinion.

Example...
I would say if i was around one of Bully's exes i would not flaunt our relationship. But that is not code. IMO it's just class, politeness and just how i roll and my personal preference. And i would not expect one of her exes to call me up and tell me she eats stray kittens. Neither have the responsibility of getting into each other's life. But, respect at least? I think so, again, just my opinion. But i think respect is what we should show everyone, until it is stepped on. So, again, that's just how i roll.

My vision of all of this is from my *me* space and posting here, i have referred to my VERY close femme friends. My TIGHT, VERY few that i would never cross a line on and date one of their exes.

IMO and from where i am coming from, it's just respect and honor of those VERY CLOSE friendship. Simple.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I have been reading the last few pages wow how one topic can pose so many different questions....So I have one of my own now this is theoretical and or hypothetical so keep that in mind and I will use letters to represent person's...

Persons A & B are in a relationship that lasts less than 1 year and they break up.

Person A begins dating several people up to an including sex etc.

Person B is seen at a party flirting with Person C who does not know person A at all

so here is my question

Does person C owe "femme" code to person A because they happen to be at the same party? if so why?

No one owes anyone anything, if exes are running into one another at parties I am going to assume that the people inviting them to parties are pretty comfortable these folks are going to be grown ass adults and keep their motions in check if there is going to be some kind of issue, IF anyone feel uncomfortable watching what their ex is doing with the alphabet then said person best stay home and not drag everyone in their spiral of doom

Does person A at any time owe anything to person B?

If A & B are knowingly going to the same party once again I am going to assume we are dealing with ADULTS, then there is going to be a mutual understanding that they are going to be grown folks acting like grown folks at someone else's event, therefore I would expect for all letters and vowels to behave in a civilized non House wive's of New Jersey manner

Considering Person A is dating/flirting/ having sexual relations with another and or many others.

Who owes what to whom in this scenario and why?


I don't think people are expecting something or that anyone is feeling like they need to owe anyone anything.


In Anya's scenario, her friend was hurt, I am unsure why other that perhaps her mourning period (some people need time after a break up) wasn't over, or perhaps she has unresolved feelings and needs to work them out. Anya's friends ex showed up at social function, Anya's friend has a momentary loss of her emotions and feels crushed because of many factors that we aren't privy to.

It's not that hard to get why and how the conversation evolved to where it's at right now, we start to talk things out and think them throughly and think of all scenenarios possible.


I don't owe any form of loyalty to anyone, but when I am in a relationship with my close friends or chosen family members I do have the expectation that they be honest and considerate like I am with them I have this expectation because that is how I am in my friendships I give back what I receive.

------------------------------------------------------------

I am sure we've all had this happen one time or another.

It could be from your not so close friend hooks up with a person you fucked 6 months ago, your not so close friend decided to share intimate details of her life with said person she is seeing,

You can either tell person you are not so close that you fucked said person she is seeing, or not.


It all depends on the individual I suppose, people have pasts, it's when things get shady or you enter relationships with only peeks at the truth and such that things get sketchy for folks.

I am unsure if anyone is going to have the correct answer gaea, everyone of us has a different set of ethics, values, system, code, ideals, etc etc so the answers are going to be radically different.

[QueenofSmirks]

I have been reading the last few pages wow how one topic can pose so many different questions....So I have one of my own now this is theoretical and or hypothetical so keep that in mind and I will use letters to represent person's...

Persons A & B are in a relationship that lasts less than 1 year and they break up.

Person A begins dating several people up to an including sex etc.

Person B is seen at a party flirting with Person C who does not know person A at all

so here is my question

Does person C owe "femme" code to person A because they happen to be at the same party? if so why?

Does person A at any time owe anything to person B?

Considering Person A is dating/flirting/ having sexual relations with another and or many others.

Who owes what to whom in this scenario and why?

Just for the sake of confusion, I'll be person A for my response.

Person C owes me nothing, not even respect as another human being. We don't know each other. Just because we both may happen to identify near or on the same point on the gender spectrum means absolutely zero to me. It doesn't mean anything more or less. I have friends of all genders and gender ID's.

Person B - my supposed ex - also owes me nothing. Nobody is responsible for me, except me. Now, having been through a few breakups in my life, I can say I've *expected* certain things from people I've been involved with, but I don't feel anything is "owed" to me. As someone else mentioned in another post, one of my exes and I agreed to avoid certain hangouts on certain nights. We were young and it was a bitter break up, so it was best for us not to run into each other. Other exes I had no problem seeing them and even hanging out with them and their new partner; others I could literally care less. So, a lot depends on a lot of different factors.

What do I owe my ex? For me it depends on how they treated me and our relationship. Maybe all I owe them is civility, maybe I owe them my undying love and respect - again, it depends on a lot of factors.

[spritzerJ]

Example...
I would say if i was around one of Bully's exes i would not flaunt our relationship. But that is not code. IMO it's just class, politeness and just how i roll and my personal preference. And i would not expect one of her exes to call me up and tell me she eats stray kittens. Neither have the responsibility of getting into each other's life. But, respect at least? I think so, again, just my opinion. But i think respect is what we should show everyone, until it is stepped on. So, again, that's just how i roll.


I am just wondering what it means to "flaunt our relationship" around exes...

I ask because currently Stoney is good friends with hys ex. And when we are all together I am friendly. It isn't awkward or anything. But I don't stop from being my mushy hand holding, sitting close, pecking self when we socializing. Should I? It has been a few years. I honestly wonder if there is some social boundary I should respect.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I dunno I think it depends.

I know that the first time I met the new gf of whatever ex... they usually refrain from hand holding and smootching in front of me for the first time. Hand holding maybe the second or third and then after that pecks on the cheek.

but that said, I'm in oxfordshire. Not really PDA central.

I didn't hold hands or smootch with my new date in front of my ex... like... ever. In the few months we were seeing each other and all hanging around.

it was a bit wierd that they knew each other... my detached wife and X. When I went out on the first dinner with X she said "I have something to tell you... ah... I know your wife..."

you WHAT?

A Dutch, a Canuck, an Irish and an Australian... welcome to london lezzo life, really...

how???

she was good friends with my wife's ex before me and big huge lezzo convoluted BLAH

So, moral is, even in an international megacity, with people from four countries not from the country they are in? The scene is still tiny.

Even when I met one partner (the one who actually introduced me to my future wife, though I had no idea I would marry the girl two years later), I found out that the partner she was with of 7 years had run off with someone I had dated in the states when they went there to visit. FUNKY SHIT. That was super entertaining, that dynamic...

7 dykes on the whole globe, rest done with mirrors. Seriously, best be ok with people dating your ex cause if 5000 miles and three different continents I'm still bumping into people who know my exes? seriously... suck.it.up.

with respect, of course. But seriously, the inter-lezzo-ex-dating is really honestly going to happen globally... y'all.

[spritzerJ]

Well color me socially blundered. I guess I am just not classy.... Ugh. I didn't stick my tongue down hys throat or hump hys leg... still I did enjoy that we were new in our relationship, hanging out socially and together. I guess it wasn't that bad of a social blunder. We all still get along.

[JustJo]

I am just wondering what it means to "flaunt our relationship" around exes...

I ask because currently Stoney is good friends with hys ex. And when we are all together I am friendly. It isn't awkward or anything. But I don't stop from being my mushy hand holding, sitting close, pecking self when we socializing. Should I? It has been a few years. I honestly wonder if there is some social boundary I should respect.

I don't think holding hands or sitting close is flaunting...at least not by my standards.

Clearly if you're all getting along, neither you or your partner is doing anything that's pushing hys ex's buttons too badly. :)

[imperfect_cupcake]

I think it just depends on how long the break has been and the type of relationship.

my detached wife was with the woman she ran off with and trying to regain my friendship. I think they'd be a little more conservative with their affection around me for a bit. They do it now.

when I didn't show any PDA in front of my detached wife with the new date... it was because of their... awkward previous knowing each other, my detached wife having massive difficulty I'd be screwing someone in the house later that night, and we'd all be meeting in passing, *at* the house as well as X was not into PDA at all. unless she'd had a couple of beer. Then it would just be an arm around my waist.

heh. or a shag in the loo, but that's not PDA exactly is it...

[gaea]

Well color me socially blundered. I guess I am just not classy.... Ugh. I didn't stick my tongue down hys throat or hump hys leg... still I did enjoy that we were new in our relationship, hanging out socially and together. I guess it wasn't that bad of a social blunder. We all still get along.

You are not socially blundered at all.

Everyone has their own way in how they handle situations. Your relationship with your sweetheart is between you and him not between you him the ex and who ever else wants to put their nose in your business.

Here is a thought If Spritzer gives consideration to the ex in such a case where as she withholds hand holding kissing etc does this not put Stoney in a weird awkward kinda position? Would this not be for Spritzer and Stoney to then determine how they will be as a couple in social settings?? Personally I believe it is.

Also in the above does Spritzer not deserve consideration as Stoney's partner? I think she does....

respect in my opinion you give and receive...

I love love love excellent dialogue...

Hugs to you Spritz and when do you want my address lol Id love some jam :)

[Angeltoes]

Well color me socially blundered. I guess I am just not classy.... Ugh. I didn't stick my tongue down hys throat or hump hys leg... still I did enjoy that we were new in our relationship, hanging out socially and together. I guess it wasn't that bad of a social blunder. We all still get along.

No way, I don't believe in these hard and fast rules. As was said, it's best to use your intuition and common sense. You might ask her sometime if you're friends with her too...but really, if you sense that she's fine with it then you're not doing anything wrong. It would be perfectly clear if I was uncomfortable with the display of affection.... and I would be, but not everyone is like me. If she's keeping it to herself then she's the one to blame. You're not a mind reader.

[Medusa]

Hmm.

We all get to decide what feels comfortable to us in friendships. I don't feel the need to judge how other people do friendships except when their friendship is with me. In that case, I get to have boundaries around what I accept in my orbit just as the other person does.

I cut a Femme out of my life for repeatedly choosing dick over being honest and authentic with me and some of her other Femme sisters.
I don't think fucking, fucking lots of people, or even fucking in ways that make other people uncomfortable makes anyone a bad person. I think we all get to do sexually what makes us feel awesome.

What I don't accept in my friendship orbit (and I'm talking about that one where the women around me have specific intimate access to me in ways that casual folks do not) is behavior that is inauthentic or dishonest. (that goes for any gender as well)

IF this manifests itself with a Femme sister doing really shitty stuff like violating other people's relationship boundaries, saying and doing highly inappropriate things around other people's partners, seeking attention from persons who are partnered monogamously in gross ways, and stepping on the back of other friends to get some sexytime, I am almost always going to cut them loose. This will, of course, come after me having a direct conversation with them (probably many) about their behavior and after the point where I feel like they aren't interested in making changes or being more aware.

I'm speaking about Femme sisters here since this is the vein that we have been discussing but this goes for anyone of any gender behaving this way.

That's not necessarily a "code" to me but I will point back to several conversations about a "Femme's Femme" and a "Butch's Femme".

I feel like there are several levels of conversation going on here and I feel like some of us have very different ideas about what kind of behavior we want from our friends or the behavior that we think is ok. And all of that is absolutely ok. It's what makes us a diverse and unique community of people.

From my me place, my girls are all the type of women that I would trust to sleep naked in bed next to my Butch and I would never blink an eye. Not trying to reduce this to sex, because it's not about sex for me. It's about a deep and abiding level of trust and respect and it is knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that the women in my life whom I call "Sister" are women worthy of that level of high trust.

[spritzerJ]

I too am really appreciating the depth and breadth of the dialogue here.

Thank you for helping me sort through the stuff of hanging around exes. It is new for me. I want to be respectful and know that when Stoney and I do go out (in a safe place) we can be ourselves to an appropriate degree. I don't get out much so I do like to have to fun. Getting out as a couple when we can be ourselves is precious time for me.

And I think shagging in the loo is private, in a way and not flaunting. Unless it is noisy and then it isn't really private either and may be flaunting. Then again it could be totally socially appropriate. :sunglass:

[imperfect_cupcake]

I have to admit the concept of "femme's femme" and "butch's femme" is a bit mind boggling to me. I can't actually wrap my head around either of those concepts.

I know dykes that will shag anything that moves regardless of who's in the way of it. I kind of stick everyone, regardless of sex/gender/sexuality in that same box. I guess because I don't hang out with butch-femme community much, but a very mixed one, I put all horndogs in one box.

People I trust to sleep next to my partner naked? well I think I'd trust my partner? I have to admit I'm really failing to grasp that concept either. I think concepts are just not translating for me. I've become borg!

sorry. the terms are really swishing over my head. And I don't think explaining them are really going to make me understand. I think it comes from context of community. That's ok. I'll just nod. Or quietly sip something and play with some spilled salt on the table. I think I used to understand. somewhere, off in the past fog of my head before the Limeys got me thinkin like them...

[Medusa]

First: I totally snorted out loud at "horndog"! I freakin' LOVE that!

Thing about trust is that I do trust my partner implicitly. I'd like to have a similar level of trust for my girlfriends. That's all :)

[Martina]

shagging in the loo . . . always socially appropriate

[aishah]

i'm with honeybarbara - the first thought i had when thinking about people i'd trust to sleep next to my partner naked was...well, i trust my partner.

i absolutely get the part about honesty and authenticity and that's something i demand of people i have close friendships with as well. it just feels like there are other assumptions happening in this thread that i don't personally understand.

[princessbelle]

I am just wondering what it means to "flaunt our relationship" around exes...

I ask because currently Stoney is good friends with hys ex. And when we are all together I am friendly. It isn't awkward or anything. But I don't stop from being my mushy hand holding, sitting close, pecking self when we socializing. Should I? It has been a few years. I honestly wonder if there is some social boundary I should respect.

I don't think holding hands or sitting close is flaunting...at least not by my standards.

Clearly if you're all getting along, neither you or your partner is doing anything that's pushing hys ex's buttons too badly. :)

Yes This....what Jo said. Flaunting to me and what i was thinking is something like..........

Two peeps break up and one gets with someone else, and they see her/his ex at the same restaurant...they intentionally go sit by them, talk loud, make it a POINT to annoy, to disrespect, to be "in your face" with the ex. To me that is flaunting. Again, just not classy. Tacky is the word that comes to mind actually.

Sounds like all of you are great friends. Wonderful!!!! Heck my ex husband and his wife are around me a lot. They are mushy with each other sometimes, but not overly so to the point they are doing it to try and hurt me or make a point. (not that it would lol) Just naturally affectionate. There is a difference, IMO.

Everyone has to make their own decisions what is right or wrong. Each situation is different. I can only control myself. Everyone is responsible for their own decisions/reactions/actions. I'm a firm believer that most everything in life is a choice. To each his/her own.

[Breathless]

Why did you never mention this to his wife, if it was her friendship that you held so dear? Whether she would believe you are not, doesnt really matter... the truth is what is important, and respecting someone in my opinion starts and stays with always being honest with them, no matter how tough the news is to hear and deal with. I figure.. in my little head, that the news of his behavior is going to come out sooner or later, and I personally would rather hear it from someone that i care about, in a private setting that I would feel safe to bawl my eyes out in front of.. than in a public setting with all the embarrassment and eyes and questions from on lookers.. which I am sure it came to light in..
Just curious.
Back when I was in the straight life I was headed to work one morning when a state trooper car pulled me over,lights flashing sirens blowing to wake the dead.I had no clue why cause I knew I was doing the speed limit and all my lights worked.Low and behold it was a casual friends bio hubby,the dam dick head hit me up for a sexy night out while his wife was staying with her sick mom.I told hime his wifes friendship was worth more to me that a night out with him or anyone and to buzz off.This was a long time before thay had mounted cams and mics in the patrole cars so I really didnt have any proof of this,but I did mention it to my uncle who was a federal marshal the next week this guy was asingned to desk duty untill further notice.I never did mention it to his wife but did find out a long time later he had been doing this for a while with others,it did cost him his badge and job eventualy.
I have a hard and fast rule about dateing my friends exes, even if its someones I casualy know cause I dont want any crap from breakups falling on me or probs with a friendship over said break up.It all comes from respect for myself and my friends.

[FemmeBibliophile]

I'm sounding in on this late, but I will say that I am another who goes against the grain.

You can't help who you fall in love with... Things happen.

Now, granted, I am not saying I want my ex to start dating my best friend the day after we split... However, I will say more power to you if it's something true and not a rebound (or finding out that you've already been secretly seeing that person while we were still together).

[Greyson]

My friend and her girlfriend broke up after a one-year relationship. My friend started going out again a couple of months after the break-up and the woman that she knew and her ex blatantly flirted in front of her at a party. My friend was truly crushed.

I honestly did not know what to say to her (other than to empathize with her feelings) as it would never have been something that I personally would have done. I avoid a friend's (even an acquaintance's) ex out of respect for, lack of a better phrase: femme sisterhood. It just does not feel right to me personally.

What do you feel about this? Is it OK because the couple were broken up? Is there a respectable amount of time that should pass before you, as a femme, flirt with or date a friend's ex in front of another femme sister-even if not you are not close friends?

Does it matter?

Is it different online vs. real life?

Your thoughts?


Okay, I am not a Femme but I do have an opinion on this sort of thing. One of the first things I learned as a Baby Butch in my late teens and early 20's is that your buddies current and/or ex was off limits. Out of respect for your friend and even for her/his ex, it was better to just leave it alone. Maybe in time if you still felt a desire to date her/his ex, you would go to your friend and tell them your intention. It was not asking for permission. It was to be honest with your friend and get an idea as to how far along they were in their healing process or just simply letting go of the ex. If it is clear your friend is still grieving and healing, then it was up to me to make my decision.

Maybe this Old School Butch Code was not in all circles but I know it was part of my group. Did all live by this, no. However, it was clear there could be consequences. The consequences were you hurt someone you care about and/or you might even face some sort of physical fight, smack down.

As for "harmless flirting," sometimes it is harmless and sometimes it is not. I have experienced someone "harmlessly flirting" with my girlfriend in the threads and the next thing I know somehow this harmless flirter is their next butch. (No, not and this site or with regulars that frequent BFP.)

Obviously there was something not working in our relationship. There had to be or else the harmless flirter could not have wormed there way in. My point, flirting can be so much more then harmless.

[Prudence]

---if you are in my circle of friends, I will not date your ex. To me that is like moving from sister to sister. In this life there are some things you just do not do. This is one of them.--------

[Miss Scarlett]

---if you are in my circle of friends, I will not date your ex. To me that is like moving from sister to sister. In this life there are some things you just do not do. This is one of them.--------

My thoughts as well. Thank you Prudence... (f)

[GPS]

this is like a loaded question ....

[Ginger]

If someone wants to date one of my exes, you have my blessing.

I couldn't be happy with them, but who am I to deny their (or your, or any of my femme friends') pursuit of happiness with them.

If I were still in love with any of them, I guess I would feel differently, but I can't know for sure.

One of them, I knew I was over her when I heard she was dating someone and my gut response was a panicked urge to warn and protect the femme from going through what I did.

But that's the only strong reaction I've had, about any of my exes being with someone else.

For the most part, my exes are decent people, just not a good match with me. And there are so few choices out there, IMO, of people who are right for us. I don't want to make the field any more narrow for someone else.

When it comes to making what some would view as inappropriate choices of a lover, I also look with hope at the example of my sister, who fell in love with her neighbor.

She was married and had a toddler and a small child at the time. Couldn't possibly have been messier—not to mention, they had to alert their chief officers in the governments of two countries, because the men worked together in a sort of tricky configuration.

"Bless her heart," said my best gay male friend in his Texan twang. "An international incident."

I agree. I say bless her heart, which she followed.

Because now, 20 years later, instead of having endured with the wrong man, (who I love like a brother, but I understand why she didn't want to remain married to him), she is living with her best friend and lover, and they have the happiest, healthiest relationship I've ever seen, with lots of common interests, flirting, laughing, trust and a strong emotional bond.

If one of my exes if your truly right person, your once-in-a-lifetime chance at happiness, or even if you just want to have some fun with her, I say, Go for it, and again, you have my blessing.

[Abigail Crabby]

---if you are in my circle of friends, I will not date your ex. To me that is like moving from sister to sister. In this life there are some things you just do not do. This is one of them.--------

My thoughts exactly and expressed so eloquently...

[Hollylane]

One of the reasons it didn't even occur to me, for quite some time, to consider engaging in dating type conversation with Gaige, was because the only way I knew of her, other than her infrequent posts and the handsome photos of her I'd come across and admire in the gallery, was because she had dated someone in my circle of femme acquaintances. I didn't know, or need to know the reasons they were no longer dating. I only knew that they had. When Gaige did approach me, respectfully, for the friendship and conversation that lead to our wonderful romance, enough time had passed that I didn't feel that there was any disrespect in continuing to get to know her.

When I place myself in someone else's shoes, I try to show the utmost kindness and respect for other femme's feelings. I don't think that this means you can never date someone that dated someone you are acquainted with, but I do think that there should be some time that has passed before engaging in that way, out of respect for both parties feelings.

I can tell you, as a friend to another femme, if I knew that my friend was still in love with someone, or was still suffering emotionally over a butch, regardless of the length of time that had passed, it would never occur to me to date the person that she still felt so strongly about.