Ode to Butches

[la_la]

I am new here and not sure if it is appropriate to post this but here goes nothing :)

Is there anyone here who finds butch lesbians attractive?

Yup, I'm crazy about them. Here's a summation of my feelings:

Ooh, what a delightful question. I love everything about butch women, and I always have. More feminine girls just don't do anything for me sexually- I can objectively admire their beauty and sexiness, but in the end, it's when I see a woman who is androgynous, boyish, or plain out manly, my heart starts to pitter-patter. So let me sing an ode to butches here, because far too often all I see is "Eww, yuck, I like my women to look like women!", and that's so sad.

I love butch hair. I like the way the women who wear it- whether it's short or long- use their hair in a completely different way than do feminine women- they don't flip it or toss it or curl it around their fingers, but sometimes they run their hands through it that special way. I love the way short hair looks so distinguished on a strong face that would otherwise be hidden by length, and I love the way a shaved butch head both reveals a butch's masculinity in attitude, and femininity in the face and head that emerge.

I love butch faces. I love the androgynous and tomboyish faces that are beautiful, elvish, almost- the girls who could be extraordinarily beautiful in femme drag. But more than that I love the butch faces that can't do that- that look ridiculous when painted up and framed by a wig. I love strong, square jaws that are firmly held rather than slack. I love high foreheads and thick brows that other people would probably want to pluck and shape. I love butch eyes, that are always so extraordinary. Not hidden by tons of makeup or weighted down with the way femme women often look away, it's like looking into their souls. I love the way a butch speaks with her eyes- those direct stares that say "I love you." or make you break out in a hot flush from across the room. I love butch mouths, which are the ultimate combination: soft and sensuous girl lips that don't act like girl lips- no pouting or worried thinning or other 'femme' signs.

I love butch bodies, every way they come. I like the way that the butch female form is somehow hidden in its clothing- from the T-shirt and jeans to the sharpest cut suit, you can always tell it's there, in the hips, the luscious curve of breast, but it's not on display the way femme clothing screams "boobs here! butt here!". I love muscles on a woman's body, more than the average sporty femme should have, bulging, tensing. I love butches who don't shave their legs or their armpits, who own the hair on their body, and how though it's long, most people don't realize it's downy soft, too, a beautiful covering. I love butch boobs, because they are such a prize, alternatively hated and ignored by their owners. I love little butch t*ts and big butch t*ts- I love the shape they make on a boxy body and I adore the juxtaposition of hard muscle, soft breast. I love to see a butch unwind her binding and the breasts to spill out like presents, and then get wrapped up again for the world, a secret only I've had access to. I love butch legs and torsos- they are so often trunk-like, solid. Even when they're scrawny, they have a centeredness, a strength. Muscled butch legs, smooth or hairy, get me every time. I love the way so many butches adorn their bodies, bodies that aren't supposed to be, but get decorated anyways- butch piercings and tattoos- a ring around a bicep makes me melt. I love the way butches smell- not cloyingly, sickeningly sweet like femmes' perfume or other body scents, but clean, fresh, sometimes musky and sour with cologne, but always different, always, somehow, natural.

I love butch fashion- I am quite simply and utterly delighted by the way women wear what's regarded as men's clothing. For anyone who's ever thought that butches are lazy dressers, I want to point out the woman who looks so utterly dashing in her suit and tie, or just a dress shirt and slacks, the boi who is able to rock a Justin Timberlake look, right down to the fedora, who makes a wifebeater look as tasty as it can be, who make men in theirs look sallowly concave at the chest. I love the studded belts that punk butches wear, the boys jeans that fit off-kilter around their hips just enough. I cannot begin to explain the heat it generates to see a butch in boxers, or better yet, boxer-briefs or boy's underwear, those legs branching up to the three-pronged cut, the flap lying flat and empty, or maybe bulging with a packer. I love the fact that nearly every butch owns a pair of boots, solid, thundering boots that look so army powerful and commanding when they wear them. I love a woman in men's clothing.

I love the way butches act. I love the particular way a butch woman acts "like a man", but with a woman's way- gentlemanly ettiquette and all. I don't know how to describe that it's not hardly even the butch qualities (sitting wide-legged and spread out, standing tall and firm), but rather how comfortable and natural she is being that way that makes it so good. I love the way butches are playful and funny but not coy or manipulative- I love their straight-forwardness. I love that "bulldagger swagger" so full of confidence and seriousness, that peacock strut. I love the way butches feel a masculine sense of obligation and duty and protection, but it doesn't translate into male ego. My heart squeezes at the way butches deal with their emotions- sometimes hiding it, swallowing it down, and that facade of pride and bravado. I love the way butches act- so confident, so gentlemanly, so tough. I love butch voices- the ones that are pitched too low, but refuse to take on the sort of drawl that would turn it into a throaty, sultry femme voice. I love the way butches can navigate the world- not in competition with men, but buddies and friends, and yet slide into women's land and have that identity, too.

I love the way butches have sex- how they know just what to do, and want to do it so very badly. I love the way butches use their hands like sex organs for delicate handlings. I love the outline of a strap-on contained in jeans or underwear. I love butches who can orgasm by jerking off their silicone c*cks, whose metaphysical erections are so strong in their minds that the touch practically translates. I absolutely am addicted to the faces of butch pleasure- the eyes rolling back in the head, the body shudders, the complete way a feminine orgasm rolls through a butch body, made masculine by it. I love butches who top but more I love butches who bottom or do both- I am drawn to butch women who know that being touched and penetrated and pleasured doesn't invalidate her butchness, doesn't feminize her, doesn't equal submission. I love butches who are into BDSM, who look fantastic in leather and who take slow, careful deliberation in their acts, who wear that power like an easy mantle. I love butches who love other butches as well as femmes- those girls who know the true pleasures of same-sex relations, when the sameness is in two butch bodies banging together, mirror images, same intense ferocity and heat.

But perhaps most of all, I love butches for who they are in this world. My heart aches and yearns for the strength I feel from them, how every day they walk the world looking the way they do and basically inviting- and then bearing- attacks for not giving up and conforming to feminine ideals. I love them for being who they are, and not letting anyone tell them that women do not have crew cuts, or women don't wear ties, or women must be this, or must be that.

Simply put, I am in love and lust with butches, and I don't care if other people aren't (you can't control what you like), but I want them to understand that butches can be- and are- desirable. Just a few quotes to close up:

" . . . a butch is someone who has taken on the best gendered characteristics of both woman and man, left a lot of the stuff born of misogyny and heterosexism behind, and walked forward into the world without apology." - S. Bear Bergman, "Butch Is a Noun"

"I love butch girls. Girls with slick, shiny, barbershop haircuts, trimmed so short your fingertips can barely grip it. Girls with shirts that button the other way. Girls that swagger... Girls who get stared at in the ladies' room, girls who shop in the boys department, girls who live every moment looking like they weren't supposed to. Girls with hands that touch me like they have been exploring my body their entire lives... It is the girls that get called sir every day who make me catch my breath, the girls with strong jaws who buckle my knees, the girls who are a different gender who make me want to lay down for them." - Tristan Taormino


Peace,
'iz

[Cyclopea]

Very Nice!
Thank You!
:rose:

[apretty]

yahoo? http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080913004123AAqH2t7

[turasultana]

Did you write that or is a quote? As apretty states its been printed a few places (germany, NC, yahoo...) are you the originator? It's a lovely sentiment.

[la_la]

Did you write that or is a quote? As apretty states its been printed a few places (germany, NC, yahoo...) are you the originator? It's a lovely sentiment.

Yes it is lovely and expresses my feelings towards Butch's. No I am not the originator and it was posted originally anonymously. I was trying to respect that while still not sure of the protocols on BFP with respect to postings links over cut and paste. Hence my initial "I am not sure ..."

Apologies if it was out of line in anyway.

Peace,
'iz

[Gemme]

Yes it is lovely and expresses my feelings towards Butch's. No I am not the originator and it was posted originally anonymously. I was trying to respect that while still not sure of the protocols on BFP with respect to postings links over cut and paste. Hence my initial "I am not sure ..."

Apologies if it was out of line in anyway.

Peace,
'iz

It's absolutely fine to post something like this, but it makes it easier for us all to understand that it's not your work by saying, "I found this and it is how I feel too" or something along those lines, so it doesn't seem like you are posting it as your own original thoughts and words when/if it's not. :)

No worries.

[Vlasta]

I am sorry and with all due respect I have to say this is really deceiving on your part .Should this community trust anything you will post in the future ? we will see .

peace

Vlasta

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I think it says somewhere in the TOS that citing where you got your works from is something that needs to be done, I could be wrong

[Bob]

I think it says somewhere in the TOS that citing where you got your works from is something that needs to be done, I could be wrong

Regardless of the TOS, didn't we all learn about 'plagiarism' in school at some point?

[NotAnAverageGuy]

who knows lol I know I did

[Kosmo]

I thought the O.P. looked familiar. It was a craigs list link posted by someone in the 'Putting the Female in Female-Identified' thread. The craigs list link is no longer active, but I copied it as a pdf file. Who knows where it originally came from.

I've also read posts that do not credit the source and, if googled, can be found in a number of web locations. Sometimes I wonder if we are less likely to call someone out if we know them (personally or from another site). I would hope we would and be as gracious in reminding them.

So, any more Ode to Butches? :)

Hang on, I'm comparing my pdf file with the O.P. There may be some slight differences.

[Linus]

I thought the O.P. looked familiar. It was a craigs list link posted by someone in the 'Putting the Female in Female-Identified' thread. The craigs list link is no longer active, but I copied it as a pdf file. Who knows where it originally came from.

I've also read posts that do not credit the source and, if googled, can be found in a number of web locations. Sometimes I wonder if we are less likely to call someone out if we know them (personally or from another site). I would hope we would and be as gracious in reminding them.

I remember that post. That was originally posted by a man in search of a butch woman. I don't remember if he was straight, bi or gay.

I think the OP's intent was one of a positive view on butches more than a deliberate attempt to plagiarize. Perhaps it may be worthwhile as to what others would put in -- in their own words -- as part of or as their own Ode to Butches.

[Kosmo]

I remember that post. That was originally posted by a man in search of a butch woman. I don't remember if he was straight, bi or gay.

I think the OP's intent was one of a positive view on butches more than a deliberate attempt to plagiarize. Perhaps it may be worthwhile as to what others would put in -- in their own words -- as part of or as their own Ode to Butches.

I tried to edit my post again, but the site locked up and had to log off/log on.

There are slight differences. Ones that make a HUGE difference in how it reads. The one from craigs list was supposedly posted by a bio bi-man (or would it be bi bio male?).

Back to the topic. Yes, in our own words and if I don't read one soon, I will be forced to post an ode to myself *snickers*.

[BullDog]

That Craigslist ad sounded pretty fake to me when I first read it- like the text had been lifted from somewhere. Who knows.

la la already apologized, so I don't see the need to keep on her about it.

[Hudson]

I thought the O.P. looked familiar. It was a craigs list link posted by someone in the 'Putting the Female in Female-Identified' thread. The craigs list link is no longer active, but I copied it as a pdf file. Who knows where it originally came from.

I've also read posts that do not credit the source and, if googled, can be found in a number of web locations. Sometimes I wonder if we are less likely to call someone out if we know them (personally or from another site). I would hope we would and be as gracious in reminding them.

So, any more Ode to Butches? :)

Hang on, I'm comparing my pdf file with the O.P. There may be some slight differences.

I remember that post. That was originally posted by a man in search of a butch woman. I don't remember if he was straight, bi or gay.

I think the OP's intent was one of a positive view on butches more than a deliberate attempt to plagiarize. Perhaps it may be worthwhile as to what others would put in -- in their own words -- as part of or as their own Ode to Butches.

No, it wasn't the same one. Not at all. But this thread does prove that if butches *think* an 'ode' is written by a woman, or at least posted by one, then it's welcome, whereas one they believe is the exact same, if written or posted by a man, (attracted to masculinity) is not. Or at least that's what's been said before.

[apretty]

No, it wasn't the same one. Not at all. But this thread does prove that if butches *think* an 'ode' is written by a woman, or at least posted by one, then it's welcome, whereas one they believe is the exact same, if written or posted by a man, (attracted to masculinity) is not. Or at least that's what's been said before.

yes, that struck me as well--such vastly different responses, i have to say it points to an element of homophobia... at the very least, male-phobia--i wonder why that dynamic is so uncomfortable for members.

[BullDog]

We aren't interested in men being interested in us. We are lesbian/queer.

[apretty]

We aren't interested in men being interested in us. We are lesbian/queer.

some of us are bi. some of us do love men, bio and otherwise. i just don't get rejecting men, categorically. i mean, the most my 'disinterest' gets is a 'shrug' --but there's something to all this *outrage* --that's what i don't get and find fascinating.

[Kosmo]

I tried to edit my post again, but the site locked up and had to log off/log on.

There are slight differences. Ones that make a HUGE difference in how it reads. The one from craigs list was supposedly posted by a bio bi-man (or would it be bi bio male?).

Back to the topic. Yes, in our own words and if I don't read one soon, I will be forced to post an ode to myself *snickers*.

No, it wasn't the same one. Not at all. But this thread does prove that if butches *think* an 'ode' is written by a woman, or at least posted by one, then it's welcome, whereas one they believe is the exact same, if written or posted by a man, (attracted to masculinity) is not. Or at least that's what's been said before.

Hello Hudson,

As I posted, there are slight differences. I could post them, but what would be the point here in this thread? The differences are enough to differentiate the two. Whether one is more welcome than the other is strictly, in my opinion (for myself), where the 'ode' originates from. That is the privilege of the person receiving the 'ode' as to whether or not it is welcomed. We are each different in what we consider flattering or insulting.

This seems important to you and, if you would be open to it, I would gladly PM you the differences of the 'ode's.

[BullDog]

Why are butch women supposed to welcome some long ode allegedly written by a man in a personal ad and supposed to want to discuss it on a butch femme website?

[Cyclopea]

yes, that struck me as well--such vastly different responses, i have to say it points to an element of homophobia... at the very least, male-phobia--i wonder why that dynamic is so uncomfortable for members.

We're GAY !lol.
:rainbowAfro:

[Kosmo]

some of us are bi. some of us do love men, bio and otherwise. i just don't get rejecting men, categorically. i mean, the most my 'disinterest' gets is a 'shrug' --but there's something to all this *outrage* --that's what i don't get and find fascinating.

I find it fascinating that you feel there is all this 'outrage'. Here in this thread?

As for those that are bi, I would hope they feel free to comment on how they find the 'ode' flattering.

[Hudson]

Hello Hudson,

As I posted, there are slight differences. I could post them, but what would be the point here in this thread? The differences are enough to differentiate the two. Whether one is more welcome than the other is strictly, in my opinion (for myself), where the 'ode' originates from. That is the privilege of the person receiving the 'ode' as to whether or not it is welcomed. We are each different in what we consider flattering or insulting.

This seems important to you and, if you would be open to it, I would gladly PM you the differences of the 'ode's.

Hi Kosmo,

The slight variations in the odes themselves are unimportant to me. What is curious to me is the homophobia and transphobia (as some gay or bi trans men are attracted to butches) inherent within. I totally get butches having zero interest in the admiration/attraction of a straight man (who doesn't see them as masculine beings - hello). For me personally, I have no attraction to anyone masculine - males, females, butches, etc but I am not repulsed or threatened by their admiration/attraction of and to me. As long as they see me as the guy I am, I find it validating. If they were to see me differently and insist that I'm other than who I say I am, then that would be unwanted. Again, it's not important to me, I have no agenda - it's just an observation.

[Kosmo]

This is an 'ode to Butches' thread :). Any takers? :)

[Hudson]

Why are butch women supposed to welcome some long ode allegedly written by a man in a personal ad and supposed to want to discuss it on a butch femme website?

You're not. But an 'ode to butches', no matter by whom it was written, is appropriate subject matter for a butch/femme website. Where better to discuss it? Someplace that would not handle it with the same knowledge and respect? And why do you feel the need to monitor and control what other people want to discuss just because you don't?

[Hudson]

This is an 'ode to Butches' thread :). Any takers? :)

I think they're awesome and badass.

But then, I'm a dude.

[BullDog]

You're not. But an 'ode to butches', no matter by whom it was written, is appropriate subject matter for a butch/femme website. Where better to discuss it? Someplace that would not handle it with the same knowledge and respect? And why do you feel the need to monitor and control what other people want to discuss just because you don't?

Why do you keep insisting on discussing it when no butch woman has shown an interest.

[Hudson]

Why do you keep insisting on discussing it when no butch woman has shown an interest.

Edit: it was a personal ad, not something I need to handle with knowledge and respect.


In case you didn't notice (maybe she was invisible) there was a femme in the discussion.

[BullDog]

In case you didn't notice (maybe she was invisible) there was a femme in the discussion.

Oh so a femme and a trans guy want to discuss how butch women are homophobic and transphobic because a man (didn't say he was trans) wrote an ode and we aren't interested in talking about and are not flattered.

[Kosmo]

Hi Kosmo,

The slight variations in the odes themselves are unimportant to me. What is curious to me is the homophobia and transphobia (as some gay or bi trans men are attracted to butches) inherent within. I totally get butches having zero interest in the admiration/attraction of a straight man (who doesn't see them as masculine beings - hello). For me personally, I have no attraction to anyone masculine - males, females, butches, etc but I am not repulsed or threatened by their admiration/attraction of and to me. As long as they see me as the guy I am, I find it validating. If they were to see me differently and insist that I'm other than who I say I am, then that would be unwanted. Again, it's not important to me, I have no agenda - it's just an observation.

Hi ya, Hudson

I thought when you and I PM'd about 'the ode, that of which we will not speak' (here is where you chuckle), that I gave you an example that you understood. I don't know about other butches, but the thought of being penetrated and fucked, and pleasured by a man (really? Pleasured?) is in no way validating to me, as a Butch. If that paints me as male-phobic? Then baby, I'll paint my whole f-n' body.

[apretty]

Hi ya, Hudson

I thought when you and I PM'd about 'the ode, that of which we will not speak' (here is where you chuckle), that I gave you an example that you understood. I don't know about other butches, but the thought of being penetrated and fucked, and pleasured by a man (really? Pleasured?) is in no way validating to me, as a Butch. If that paints me as male-phobic? Then baby, I'll paint by whole f-n' body.

you don't seem to be in the market for that sort of thing, regardless.

[Kosmo]

Simmer down, please. If you have beefs with one another, take it private or choose to disengage. It's starting to escalate in here.

--June

Posted my last same time as you, June. I'm going to have a nice cup of tea now.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I personally do not see anything wrong with a man posting an ode to a butch woman.

I have lots of bio male friends and trans friends who love butch women, as friends or more. I think if someone or a class of people are being complimented, take it as a compliment and move on in life, it just shows that y'all are appreciated.

[Kosmo]

I think they're awesome and badass.

But then, I'm a dude.

Thank you for this 'ode', Hudson. As short as it is, it speaks volumes to me and I'm jonesing for an 'ode'. ;)

I hug you {{Hudson}}

[Kosmo]

you don't seem to be in the market for that sort of thing, regardless.

Hi apretty,

You are correct. I am not in the market and that is why I wouldn't have responded to the ad, but when the link was posted in the thread it was posted in, then I have the right to post a response. And while I don't identify strictly as female/feminine or male/masculine identified, I do have a voice and I think I will start using it.

[Outlaw]

I personally do not see anything wrong with a man posting an ode to a butch woman.

I have lots of bio male friends and trans friends who love butch women, as friends or more. I think if someone or a class of people are being complimented, take it as a compliment and move on in life, it just shows that y'all are appreciated.

I think "someone or a class of people" get to decide individually and collectively what is complimentary and what is not.

Speaking only for myself and my butchness... I get to choose individually... if and by whom... I allow my butchness to be objectified by...:cowboy:

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I think "someone or a class of people" get to decide individually and collectively what is complimentary and what is not.

Speaking only for myself and my butchness... I get to choose individually... if and by whom... I allow my butchness to be objectified by...:cowboy:

I understand but my point is who doesn't like to know they are appreciated?

[Waldo]

For fucks sake.

Am I reading this right? That we (whether butch, femme or trans) aren't supposed to consider this a valid communication because it originated from a bio man/male?

If that logic is to be followed then we should probably shut down or heavily moderate the "Tap It" thread so that no celebrity who isn't receptive to the advances of a butch, femme, trans or genderqueer person is discussed.

One of the unifying aspects of this site is sexuality. And this certainly falls into that category. Granted, it's not something we discuss often, but it fits.

It's okay that it's not your cuppa tea, but it might be right up the alley of those who want to expand their thoughts about what attracts one person to another.

For me personally it always amuses/confuses me when a guy finds me attractive, but I'm always flattered. And showing appreciation for my physical appearance isn't always about objectification.

/soapbox

[Cyclopea]

For fucks sake.

Am I reading this right? That we (whether butch, femme or trans) aren't supposed to consider this a valid communication because it originated from a bio man/male?

If that logic is to be followed then we should probably shut down or heavily moderate the "Tap It" thread so that no celebrity who isn't receptive to the advances of a butch, femme, trans or genderqueer person is discussed.

One of the unifying aspects of this site is sexuality. And this certainly falls into that category. Granted, it's not something we discuss often, but it fits.

It's okay that it's not your cuppa tea, but it might be right up the alley of those who want to expand their thoughts about what attracts one person to another.

For me personally it always amuses/confuses me when a guy finds me attractive, but I'm always flattered. And showing appreciation for my physical appearance isn't always about objectification.

/soapbox

I don't think anyone said la-la's ode was written by a man.
So, for fuck's sake, no- you are not reading this right!
;)
They are talking about some straight guy's craigslist ad that most of us haven't read. (And don't really care to).
Clear as mud?
:dance1:

[Waldo]

That's what I get for skimming.

For fucks sake.

(it's the phrase of the day)

[Jett]

No, it wasn't the same one. Not at all. But this thread does prove that if butches *think* an 'ode' is written by a woman, or at least posted by one, then it's welcome, whereas one they believe is the exact same, if written or posted by a man, (attracted to masculinity) is not. Or at least that's what's been said before.

A couple butches opinions proves something about the way all butches think?

FYI, I read the ad to butches by the bio-male and was flattered... not interested but flattered none the less.

I didn't find it odd at all, it's not the first time I've run into guys who have a thing for butches... honestly the only thing I found odd was you're placing that article in the middle of a discussion about female butches, and perhaps your bee-lining in here to talk about it again.

But I totally believe to each their own... what you want to discuss really doesn't hold great interest for me... unless you make a sweeping generalization about what butches think.

We do not group think.

Peace,
Metro

[Cyclopea]

That's what I get for skimming.

For fucks sake.

(it's the phrase of the day)

The phrase of the day is "motorboating".

Oh shoot it's after midnight- ok you're right.
:byebye:

[Kosmo]

For fucks sake.

Am I reading this right? That we (whether butch, femme or trans) aren't supposed to consider this a valid communication because it originated from a bio man/male?

If that logic is to be followed then we should probably shut down or heavily moderate the "Tap It" thread so that no celebrity who isn't receptive to the advances of a butch, femme, trans or genderqueer person is discussed.

One of the unifying aspects of this site is sexuality. And this certainly falls into that category. Granted, it's not something we discuss often, but it fits.

It's okay that it's not your cuppa tea, but it might be right up the alley of those who want to expand their thoughts about what attracts one person to another.

For me personally it always amuses/confuses me when a guy finds me attractive, but I'm always flattered. And showing appreciation for my physical appearance isn't always about objectification.

/soapbox

It's very valid. As valid as the responses that the original post (with the ad) received. For a number of people, it was not their cup of tea. Why would that be the issue here? Because it originated from a bio male? (assumed). They are not allowed to voice displeasure? It goes both ways. If there were any butches in that thread that had a positive response, they could have done so. And I believe one did respond in a positive manner. So let's not make this a hetero-homo sexual issue.

I could easily create and post an ode to bio men/transmen that says equally the same things, e.g., appreciating how I love that they could be pleasured by my cock and not feel any less male/manly. I would expect both negative and positive responses without labeling anyone with a phobia.

I could PM you the ad and would be interested in your response. I have had bio men at work tell me I look sharp for that particular day and I appreciate it. If one told me I have a great ass, not so much. But that's just me.

I do happen to have a great ass (so says my girl ;))

[Kosmo]

That's what I get for skimming.

For fucks sake.

(it's the phrase of the day)

*snickers* ;)

[BullDog]

I agree with Outlaw, we get to decide what we find complimentary or objectifying and what we are interested in talking about. If a man wants to pay me a compliment like hey nice haircut- sure that's nice. A long ode that waxes poetic- I am just simply not interested. Anyway I think it was lifted from somewhere. My apologies if they guy spent hours composing it for his ad. His "ode" might not be exactly the same as the one posted in this thread. Who's on first, lol.

What has bothered me was the continued insistence in 2 threads that butch women discuss it- coming from someone who doesn't id as a butch woman- and when it didn't appear anyone was interested in discussing it we are called transphobic and homophobic. The man posting the ad never said he was trans and I don't get where homophobia would come into play at all- he's male, we're female.

Like Kosmo said, if anyone does want to discuss it they are free to do so.

[Kosmo]

You are strong of will, intelligent, and compassionate. You make mistakes and can admit them. You strive to understand, to think outside the box because you have been held prisoner in one for so long. You appreciate the struggles of women because you are one. You walk with head held high as you enter those realms non-accepting of what you look like, what you stand for, who you are. You are fluid, stable, soft, concrete.

You appreciate being noticed for your brains, your style, your team work, your ability to make it happen, to figure it out; and not just for your looks or your sexual prowess (as perceived or decreed by others).

You remember feeling different, but not knowing why. That you weren't the good little girl that didn't get dirty or the one that was supposed to show appreciation or thanks for a compliment based on your looks by boys, men that made you feel uncomfortable, because girls should appreciate it, be thankful for it. You said, fuck it.

You have made yourself who you are and you continue to grow.

You are a Butch.

[FeminineAllure]

What I love most about a butch is...

I love the dichotomy of a butch...
Something with seemingly contradictory qualities...
Your female body with that masculine strut.
Your yang balancing my yin.
Your hardness and your softness.
Your roughness with your gentleness.
Your making love to me with a cock while knowing every part of my body like your own.
Being in a woman's body and wearing men's clothing. And looking better than they do in them.
Your strong protective arms holding my hand that is smaller like yours.
The smell of your sweat and testosterone from working on my car for me. Then smelling freshly showered cooking your favorite recipe for us.
Playing pool with your friends for the afternoon and that evening... helping me paint my toenails and choosing me a color knowing the importance of it matching my lipstick.
Wanting to watch monday night football and not being afraid to cry when your team looses. LOL
Comfortable only in your boots. Yet also willing to wear a pair of my sandals in a pinch< that fit you perfectly> to run out to the store to get me my favorite icecream.
You often have a selective memory yet you remember my favorite icecream, flowers, and our anniversary a month before it even comes up.
The way you say to me "honey I know just what your going through" once a month and truly do.
The way you willingly will allow me to test a perfume on you I want to smell in a store... yet I ran out of room on my own body to still smell anything.
The way you let me hold a pair of earrings or a purse or an outfit up to you to see what it will look like on me and men walking by us looking at you and thinking "poor guy."
The way you ignore any whispers or laughter at us together as your eyes glance at his crotch and you laugh back thinking "at least I get to choose my size"
The way men don't look twice at us while you pull out my chair for me and open doors.
The way you actually take as long or longer then me to get ready to go out sometimes
and I am the one saying "honey you look fine."
The way you respect your part of our closet...all 12 hangers.
I love a butch for all of this and so much more...
But what I love the most about you...Is your like having the best of both genders all in one package<g> Emotionally, mentally, and physically I can relate to you.
And I never have to remind you to put down the toilet seat!

Written by me
From my heart.

[WILDCAT]

YouTube- Bobbie Gentry - Ode To Billy Joe

You older folks, remember this song was out WAY back (late 60's?) and everyone loved it, and tried to speculate what is what about...? "AHHH! Abortion, they threw the baby off the bridge", "no it was murder and a dead guy's body they tossed off the bridge", etc...

All I gave a damn about what this woman named "BOBBIE GENTRY" singing this song. (I may or may NOT have had a tiny crush on her for that reason alone!)

Anyway, (I digress!) then the movie came out around mid-70's (?) and this beautiful male actor Robbie Benson played Billie Joe. It was heart wrenching for many of us to watch. An old "bible belt" region, him possibly being a queer :overreaction: - how difficult and painful that was to be able to cope with the realities of his life and trauma at that time - and how many of us could RELATE to it (especially who grew up a tad more rurally), as queer was not so out then - NOT even in the movies. Sad to think of it now even. Ouch. :watereyes:

AHH, BUT, hell - here I am reminded that we aren't much further off between the queers and the straights - and all 'dat... just a couple days before the year 2010! We kill each other, don't we? (Metaphorically [comedically] speaking here, not literally - of course.)

PEACE
WILDCAT

:heartbeat:

*Where's "la la"? I smell a sabotage... little bugger! :gimmehug: Anyway, I think folks are missing the point of the start of this thread. (I'm too shy to spell out my opinion - once again.) But, discussion is good - yes (?) Everyone feeling the growing pains yet? :snowballfight:

**Nice tribute FA. What about us with very large hands and big feet? That makes things more complicated regarding the footwear thingy. Just sayin'. I've never measured my hands, why let me do so know! Oh, a hard 7 3/4". That's not TOO bad. (I really thought they'd be BIGGER.) Size 12 shoes. I love that I don't need a tape rule to measure off rooms, I just walk 'em off!

***GOOD day all!

[FeminineAllure]

It was just a metaphor WILDCAT. I realize not every butch has small hands and feet lol. Or that all femmes do as well for that matter.:ballngag:

[WILDCAT]

It was just a metaphor WILDCAT. I realize not every butch has small hands and feet lol. Or that all femmes do as well for that matter.:ballngag:

Now I hope you know I was only "teasing"! Nothing "ouchy" there!! Just being silly.

I love big hands. (Oh, I spelled now, "know"... as in measure my hands "NOW" - I meant, in that post - oops.)

Ever notice the size of Vanessa Redgrave's hands?! Woo-hooo!! Big and strong, but so is she!


:flyaway:

[Inuus]

It was just a metaphor WILDCAT. I realize not every butch has small hands and feet lol. Or that all femmes do as well for that matter.:ballngag:

Yeah if that was the case (butches with small hands/feet) I wouldnt fit the mold. I'm a bit simian like. Long legs long arms big hands and feet..but at least Im not hairy ;)

[Hudson]

A couple butches opinions proves something about the way all butches think?

FYI, I read the ad to butches by the bio-male and was flattered... not interested but flattered none the less.

I didn't find it odd at all, it's not the first time I've run into guys who have a thing for butches... honestly the only thing I found odd was you're placing that article in the middle of a discussion about female butches, and perhaps your bee-lining in here to talk about it again.

But I totally believe to each their own... what you want to discuss really doesn't hold great interest for me... unless you make a sweeping generalization about what butches think.

We do not group think.

Peace,
Metro


Hi Metro,

Thanks for sharing your opinion about the craigslist ad. I'm not here to discuss that ad. And I already explained my intent there, then. I made an observation about the different reaction this ode got. I never said 'all' butches although I can recall quite clearly that *most* butches responded negatively, one or two with outright hostility. I'm also not the only one who noticed and commented. So unless you're speaking to me as a moderator when you're accusing me of 'beelining' here to discuss 'it' again (read: starting trouble), kindly refrain.

Carry on.

[Bob]

YouTube- Bobbie Gentry - Ode To Billy Joe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZt5Q-u4crc)
All I gave a damn about what this woman named "BOBBIE GENTRY" singing this song. (I may or may NOT have had a tiny crush on her for that reason alone!)

Bobbie Gentry was hott. Did you hear that there's supposedly a master recording of the song that contains additional lyrics that explain the central mystery of the song? Of course, that mystery is part of what makes it so great.

If one responds so negatively to the idea that a (bio)man may have posted an ode to butches, or that there are straight men who find butch women attractive, then I posit that one may be engaging in a little reverse 'gay panic-icity.' I'm not saying you'd kill a man over it, but those same feelings of revulsion combined with hostility are ones that can clearly lead to unpleasant places.

Like the Tallahatchie Bridge, with a mysterious bundle in your arms.

[Soon]

The smell of your sweat and testosterone from working on my car for me. .

FeminineAllure,

I know your Ode is heartfelt, and I am sure many butches appreciate it.

I am not writing this now to hurt your feelings or attack you, but I found this line too interesting and (after thinking about it for quite some time!) feel compelled to ask a question regarding it.

Why would a butch have any more scent of testosterone than I as a femme?

Even with an endrocine disorder (such as PCOS), where there may be a hormonal imbalance, I don't think one would be able to detect its scent. I know all women have some measure of testosterone in their systems, but, certainly for most, it is not the dominating one.

Basically, wouldn't a butch have the same basic scent or smell (excluding other factors such as cologne etc.) than you or I--as we are both female?


I just found it sort of odd that butches would be equated with the smell of testosterone.
Maybe others wish to weigh in as well.

I don't mean to nitpick, but my eye caught the word *testosterone*, and I was like oh wow...b/c I never noticed a distinct smell of testosterone on butches and thought I would ask about it.

[BullDog]

Nobody's panicked Bob. A trans man posted a link to a Craigslist ad allegedly writtten by a man in a Female Identified Butch thread and asked us what we thought. Several butches answered. Now here we are in another thread talking about again.

Personally my life doesn't revolve around men. I don't care if they are attracted to me or what they think of my masculinity. I'm neither flattered nor validated.

By the way, what are the chances of someone genuinely waxing poetic about Butch Women on either Yahoo Answers or Craigslist? Gentle readers I believe the genuine author of our beloved Ode we must affectionately refer to as Anon. The others are most likely cut and paste jobs with a few edits.

[Hudson]

Nobody's panicked Bob. A trans man posted a link to a Craigslist ad allegedly writtten by a man in a Female Identified Butch thread and asked us what we thought. Several butches answered. Now here we are in another thread talking about again.

Personally my life doesn't revolve around men. I don't care if they are attracted to me or what they think of my masculinity. I'm neither flattered nor validated.

By the way, what are the chances of someone genuinely waxing poetic about Butch Women on either Yahoo Answers or Craigslist? Gentle readers I believe the genuine author of our beloved Ode we must affectionately refer to as Anon. The others are most likely cut and paste jobs with a few edits.

Well then talk about something else?

And just because a piece of text is found on Yahoo Answers or craigslist does not mean it originated there, as is evidenced by their appearance here, on this site.

[apretty]

i sense panic.

[BullDog]

Well then talk about something else?

And just because a piece of text is found on Yahoo Answers or craigslist does not mean it originated there, as is evidenced by their appearance here, on this site.

We agree!!!

[BullDog]

i sense panic.

I feel annoyed.

[Soon]

FeminineAllure,

I know your Ode is heartfelt, and I am sure many butches appreciate it.

I am not writing this now to hurt your feelings or attack you, but I found this line too interesting and (after thinking about it for quite some time!) feel compelled to ask a question regarding it.

Why would a butch have any more scent of testosterone than I as a femme?

Even with an endrocine disorder (such as PCOS), where there may be a hormonal imbalance, I don't think one would be able to detect its scent. I know all women have some measure of testosterone in their systems, but, certainly for most, it is not the dominating one.

Basically, wouldn't a butch have the same basic scent or smell (excluding other factors such as cologne etc.) than you or I--as we are both female?


I just found it sort of odd that butches would be equated with the smell of testosterone.
Maybe others wish to weigh in as well.

I don't mean to nitpick, but my eye caught the word *testosterone*, and I was like oh wow...b/c I never noticed a distinct smell of testosterone on butches and thought I would ask about it.

*endocrine :coffee:

---------
To the butches (do I need to say female ID?), how do you feel about being praised for the scent of testosterone?

[apretty]

I feel annoyed.

by the threat of a male among us? by sexuality that differs from your own?

[BullDog]

by the threat of a male among us? by sexuality that differs from your own?

No by people telling butch women how we feel and trying to dictate what we talk about.

[FeminineAllure]

FeminineAllure,

I know your Ode is heartfelt, and I am sure many butches appreciate it.

I am not writing this now to hurt your feelings or attack you, but I found this line too interesting and (after thinking about it for quite some time!) feel compelled to ask a question regarding it.

Why would a butch have any more scent of testosterone than I as a femme?

Even with an endrocine disorder (such as PCOS), where there may be a hormonal imbalance, I don't think one would be able to detect its scent. I know all women have some measure of testosterone in their systems, but, certainly for most, it is not the dominating one.

Basically, wouldn't a butch have the same basic scent or smell (excluding other factors such as cologne etc.) than you or I--as we are both female?


I just found it sort of odd that butches would be equated with the smell of testosterone.
Maybe others wish to weigh in as well.

I don't mean to nitpick, but my eye caught the word *testosterone*, and I was like oh wow...b/c I never noticed a distinct smell of testosterone on butches and thought I would ask about it.

Good question!
Let me just simplify and replace the word testosterone with pheneromes. Edited to add: I could also use "the masculine scent of your <add any mens cologne you like here.> "
No worries your not nitpicking at all!

[Bob]

No by people telling butch women how we feel and trying to dictate what we talk about.

(from signature: "The moment we begin to fear the opinions of others and hesitate to tell the truth that is in us...."

I'm amused.

[Inuus]

I was wondering if this thread is going to get back to what I preceived to be the original topic?

Call me anal but derailing can be annoying

[BullDog]

I'm amused.

I don't fear your opinion Bob. I am annoyed. Happy you are amused. Have a nice day.

[MizzSabra]

I find it interesting that some butches are totally *revolted*, dare I say threatened, by a man finding them attractive but on the other hand have absolutely no issue with objectifying a straight female, who would probably be *revolted* by some butch finding them attractive.

ETA: Love me some butch boobs!

[BullDog]

I haven't seen any butches objectifying straight females in this thread, and I haven't seen any butches say or express that they are revolted by a man potentially finding them attractive.

[MizzSabra]

I haven't seen any butches objectifying straight females in this thread, and I haven't seen any butches say or express that they are revolted by a man potentially finding them attractive.

I didn't say in this thread (about objectifying straight women). And I have seen several posts in this thread about how some butches feel about a MAN finding them attractive.

[Kosmo]

Hi Metro,

Thanks for sharing your opinion about the craigslist ad. I'm not here to discuss that ad. And I already explained my intent there, then. I made an observation about the different reaction this ode got. I never said 'all' butches although I can recall quite clearly that *most* butches responded negatively, one or two with outright hostility. I'm also not the only one who noticed and commented. So unless you're speaking to me as a moderator when you're accusing me of 'beelining' here to discuss 'it' again (read: starting trouble), kindly refrain.

Carry on.

Hi Hudson,

Before your first post in this thread, there were only two direct comments on the subject matter of the O.P. Both positive. Then posts were questioning the origin and crediting sources. I noticed a similarity to the OP and a craigs list ad that you posted a link to in another butch thread, then it was on.

If you didn't want to discuss that ad, then why bring it up as a comparison in the first place? How can you not want to discuss it, but still use it as a reference to question butch reaction which is lately described as perceived outrage, male phobia, and gay-panic. WTF?

What is it you want butches to say?

What more can be said? How 'bout we place both 'ode's in a thread and we can all just vote which one we feel is validating? But I think only Butches can vote since both odes were directed ONLY towards them.

I was one that had a hostile reaction to the ad. So what? That hardly makes me phobic of bio male attention. I found most of it objectifying and insulting:

I love butch boobs, because they are such a prize,
alternatively hated and ignored by their owners.

I really didn't know that butches both hated and ignored their boobs? Huh, go figure.

I didn't like the statement in the ad and I still don't like it in this thread's OP, but I get that this is an ode to butches and the flavor of each ode will vary.

So I guess I'm really male phobic and femme phobic.

Fuck, I'm gay-panicking now!!!

[WILDCAT]

I'm wondering if and how antagonistic CRAP serves any good purposes here.

I'm thinking some folks are mean spirited in this walk of life.

Bully, unbelievable, eh?

I wish folks would be a bit more respectful here. Seriously. Don't we get enough crap out in the "real" world? And the defensiveness is really not warranted, but... folks do show their "hand of sorts" by remaining or continuing on such a path.

NOT CLEAR here? Well, just take what you can use - and leave the rest then. I'm not Judge Judy...

Folks are seemingly NOT writing very kindly here. We generally know where our own hearts are, yes?
__

I think I'm in a loving space myself, but not feeling too much of it here. So, I'm going to run my errands now. SMILE

And I'm not in any defending myself space, for certain. (And I don't think it's nice really of anyone to write or infer such things. Unless you want to quote maybe specific (?)

I'm certainly not feeling "panicked"... (?)
__

There is a difference from being hurt, annoyed, defensive, defendING, rude, disrespectful, instigative and truly genuine/concerned/civil/productive... CONstructive, etc. And on and on.

Plug it in where it fits... if you wish. I have, for myself and I'm quite clear with myself where I am at right now. (Realizing everyone's perceptions and realities are their own of course.)

Have to good day all respectful, kind and considerate folks. Anyone confused, good luck! (Little hug here from me!!)

WC


*I'm starting to think I'm on the wrong site here. Anyone else? Have the aliens landed?

ETA: Oh, much has been written since I began this. Hope it still fits in with the theme in any helpful or interesting way... Have a good day now, ya'll! Really.

[Kosmo]

I find it interesting that some butches are totally *revolted*, dare I say threatened, by a man finding them attractive but on the other hand have absolutely no issue with objectifying a straight female, who would probably be *revolted* by some butch finding them attractive.

ETA: Love me some butch boobs!

When one comes into a butch thread and asks a question regarding bio male attraction to butches and if it validates a butch, then HELLA YES there's going to be reactions.

Just as femmes would be expected to give their opinions on a post by a butch in a thread for straight females, femmes, that to the straight females/femmes, feels/is objectifying or condescending????? I may know something of this, by the way.

Why is this so hard to understand, people?

P.S. MizzSabra, you might want to check out motorboarding ;)

[MizzSabra]

When one comes into a butch thread and asks a question regarding bio male attraction to butches and if it validates a butch, then HELLA YES there's going to be reactions.

Just as femmes would be expected to give their opinions on a post by a butch in a thread for straight females, femmes, that to the straight females/femmes, feels/is objectifying or condescending????? I may know something of this, by the way.

Why is this so hard to understand, people?

Hypocritical at best that some people are offended by something done or said to them and then turn around and do the same to someone else.

I'm not validated by anyone but ME. If I relied on others for validation...well, then I'd just be insecure.

[BullDog]

Well Mizz Sabra I certainly don't see anyone expressing any revulsion. We are interpreting things much differently.

[WILDCAT]

I didn't say in this thread (about objectifying straight women). And I have seen several posts in this thread about how some butches feel about a MAN finding them attractive.


And?

If I would say I don't find any men interested in me TOO INTERESTING... that doesn't mean I would feel "revolted" if they were. I'm as queer as a seven dollar bill. Why would I have to coddle that sentiment - especially HERE on this site? And to please whom? And that should be understood, not "offensive". That is a bit strong to infer ("revolted"), don't you think? And not the way I am at all anyway. (And sorry if someone said that and I missed it.)

Actually, it happens to me sometimes with men around here in my area - and I don't feel anything derrogatory about it. (Well, unless they were sexually inappropriate or disrespectful!) I however, might amuse myself that it surely must be they're "closet queers" as I don't have much "out there" with my yin side - well, that I think anyway. But, I am who I am. So, who knows? That is my caring, humorous side though "thinking that must be a queer side" of a man - to be attracted to ME! Smile.

I think straight men are attracted to straight men. Straight women to women... It happens. And all kinds of variations... (?) So?

And this does feel like a derail now, whoever wrote that. Yeah, that's the ticket!

Seems like folks are misreading a lot of things here though, and there is much confusion for this.

Later!

Wildcat

[Hudson]

Hi Hudson,

Before your first post in this thread, there were only two direct comments on the subject matter of the O.P. Both positive. Then posts were questioning the origin and crediting sources. I noticed a similarity to the OP and a craigs list ad that you posted a link to in another butch thread, then it was on.

If you didn't want to discuss that ad, then why bring it up as a comparison in the first place? How can you not want to discuss it, but still use it as a reference to question butch reaction which is lately described as perceived outrage, male phobia, and gay-panic. WTF?

What is it you want butches to say?

What more can be said? How 'bout we place both 'ode's in a thread and we can all just vote which one we feel is validating? But I think only Butches can vote since both odes were directed ONLY towards them.

I was one that had a hostile reaction to the ad. So what? That hardly makes me phobic of bio male attention. I found most of it objectifying and insulting:

I love butch boobs, because they are such a prize,
alternatively hated and ignored by their owners.

I really didn't know that butches both hated and ignored their boobs? Huh, go figure.

I didn't like the statement in the ad and I still don't like it in this thread's OP, but I get that this is an ode to butches and the flavor of each ode will vary.

So I guess I'm really male phobic and femme phobic.

Fuck, I'm gay-panicking now!!!

Sorry Kosmo, but the only people I see keeping that convo alive are the butches.

This (not you, Kosmo, but the overall reaction) reminds me of those "(Ewww) I'm not a lesbian and I don't date them because (ewww) I don't have 'lesbian sex' and ugh, I just don't relate to/get that/welcome that" where identities seem to hinge upon stating over and over what one is not (as with homophobia). I never find it necessary to define myself by expressing my repulsion at the attention or attraction of another.

[Kosmo]

Hypocritical at best that some people are offended by something done or said to them and then turn around and do the same to someone else.

I'm not validated by anyone but ME. If I relied on others for validation...well, then I'd just be insecure.

And they should be called on it, but I don't see that happening here. Any more than a straight male being hypocritical for not finding the attraction of a gay male validating or flattering and being free to voice it. It's about personal preferences. Why must I feel thankful for something I find objectifying?

It's already been noted that there were positive responses from butches. So, now if we all don't step in that line to give thanks, we are hypocritical? Like I said, if someone says something hypocritical, they should be called on it. If a straight women is displeased with butch flattery, then she needs to call it out. If she feels that the butch is being hypocritical by not also receiving bio male flattery, she can call that out too (I guess). As I would then expect her to call a straight male out on the same thing.

Not directed at you, MizzSabra, but this is turning into a discussion that is going well beyond what I have experienced in my lifetime. I leave it to all the experts on validation, objectification and butch phobias and hypocrisies.

I need a shower. My sweat glands are coming close to knocking myself out.

[MizzSabra]

And?

If I would say I don't find any men interested in me TOO INTERESTING... that doesn't mean I would feel "revolted" if they were. I'm as queer as a seven dollar bill. Why would I have to coddle that sentiment - especially HERE on this site? And to please whom? And that should be understood, not "offensive". That is a bit strong to infer ("revolted"), don't you think? And not the way I am at all anyway. (And sorry if someone said that and I missed it.)

Actually, it happens to me sometimes with men around here in my area - and I don't feel anything derrogatory about it. (Well, unless they were sexually inappropriate or disrespectful!) I however, might amuse myself that it surely must be they're "closet queers" as I don't have much "out there" with my yin side - well, that I think anyway. But, I am who I am. So, who knows? That is my caring, humorous side though "thinking that must be a queer side" of a man - to be attracted to ME! Smile.

I think straight men are attracted to straight men. Straight women to women... It happens. And all kinds of variations... (?) So?

And this does feel like a derail now, whoever wrote that. Yeah, that's the ticket!

Seems like folks are misreading a lot of things here though, and there is much confusion for this.

Later!

Wildcat

Now my words I choose are being monitored for correct usage according to you? I think not.

I have encountered butches who are totally offended/revolted/threatened when a man finds them attractive, but turn around and will say "Ooooh, that Angelina Jolie/Sarah Palin/Jessica Simpson/Britney Spears/blah blah blah, now I would fuck the living daylights out of her." Hypocritical much?

Later!

My ode to butches: Be who you are, be authentic. You don't even have to work on my car or fix my plumbing. That tie? Go ahead and wear it, if you are so inclined. And yeah, show me some butch cleavage once in awhile.

[MizzSabra]

And they should be called on it, but I don't see that happening here. Any more than a straight male being hypocritical for not finding the attraction of a gay male validating or flattering and being free to voice it. It's about personal preferences. Why must I feel thankful for something I find objectifying?

It's already been noted that there were positive responses from butches. So, now if we all don't step in that line to give thanks, we are hypocritical? Like I said, if someone says something hypocritical, they should be called on it. If a straight women is displeased with butch flattery, then she needs to call it out. If she feels that the butch is being hypocritical by not also receiving bio male flattery, she can call that out too (I guess). As I would then expect her to call a straight male out on the same thing.

Not directed at you, MizzSabra, but this is turning into a discussion that is going well beyond what I have experienced in my lifetime. I leave it to all the experts on validation, objectification and butch phobias and hypocrisies.

I need a shower. My sweat glands are coming close to knocking myself out.

What about in those cases someone is talking about someone that's not even in the room/city/state/country? You can only call out what you hear or see.

[Hudson]

Now my words I choose are being monitored for correct usage according to you? I think not.

I have encountered butches who are totally offended/revolted/threatened when a man finds them attractive, but turn around and will say "Ooooh, that Angelina Jolie/Sarah Palin/Jessica Simpson/Britney Spears/blah blah blah, now I would fuck the living daylights out of her." Hypocritical much?

Later!

My ode to butches: Be who you are, be authentic. You don't even have to work on my car or fix my plumbing. That tie? Go ahead and wear it, if you are so inclined. And yeah, show me some butch cleavage once in awhile.

Oh, but only men objectify, Sabra. Well, men and you.

[MizzSabra]

Oh, but only men objectify, Sabra. Well, men and you.

At least I'm not hypocritical about it. :)

[Kosmo]

Sorry Kosmo, but the only people I see keeping that convo alive are the butches.

This (not you, Kosmo, but the overall reaction) reminds me of those "(Ewww) I'm not a lesbian and I don't date them because (ewww) I don't have 'lesbian sex' and ugh, I just don't relate to/get that/welcome that" where identities seem to hinge upon stating over and over what one is not (as with homophobia). I never find it necessary to define myself by expressing my repulsion at the attention or attraction of another.

lol, and femmes.

Damn, I thought we were going to get back on track with odes and then I saw your reply to Metropolis, but you are correct, it is being continued by butches and femmes.

I'm beginning to think like someone else here, that this thread is a sabotage *shocked*. I need to walk away awhile. My fingers are getting raw,, lol.

I agree with you completely on IDs hinging on the negative or 'what I'm not', but, and please humor me here, if asked whether I like something or not, my reply may include what I don't like and why. If I simply tell you it is because I am butch, is that enough? I could list 100 positive reasons, but 5 negative ones will explain it best.

Hudson, my being a woman or female doesn't automatically place me in a category of those who find attraction by bio males flattering or validating. To presuppose that would initially is insulting .... not by the bio male flattery, but by expecting it. If a bio male were to come up to me and say, 'you know what, sexy? you've got a nice ass'. I'm not going to respond nicely. That's just me. Maybe you would respond nicely and thank him.

Maybe it's the historical expectation of 'being the nice female'. Maybe it's the bio male expectation that they can say just about anything to a woman and it's laughed off or she is expected to make lemonade out of lemons. I don't do it, out there or here. If I do it to someone else, then they can chew my head off for it and I will learn and understand better. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[weatherboi]

I don't ID as butch. I think this is really nice!!! Nice gift for the butches!!


What I love most about a butch is...

I love the dichotomy of a butch...
Something with seemingly contradictory qualities...
Your female body with that masculine strut.
Your yang balancing my yin.
Your hardness and your softness.
Your roughness with your gentleness.
Your making love to me with a cock while knowing every part of my body like your own.
Being in a woman's body and wearing men's clothing. And looking better than they do in them.
Your strong protective arms holding my hand that is smaller like yours.
The smell of your sweat and testosterone from working on my car for me. Then smelling freshly showered cooking your favorite recipe for us.
Playing pool with your friends for the afternoon and that evening... helping me paint my toenails and choosing me a color knowing the importance of it matching my lipstick.
Wanting to watch monday night football and not being afraid to cry when your team looses. LOL
Comfortable only in your boots. Yet also willing to wear a pair of my sandals in a pinch< that fit you perfectly> to run out to the store to get me my favorite icecream.
You often have a selective memory yet you remember my favorite icecream, flowers, and our anniversary a month before it even comes up.
The way you say to me "honey I know just what your going through" once a month and truly do.
The way you willingly will allow me to test a perfume on you I want to smell in a store... yet I ran out of room on my own body to still smell anything.
The way you let me hold a pair of earrings or a purse or an outfit up to you to see what it will look like on me and men walking by us looking at you and thinking "poor guy."
The way you ignore any whispers or laughter at us together as your eyes glance at his crotch and you laugh back thinking "at least I get to choose my size"
The way men don't look twice at us while you pull out my chair for me and open doors.
The way you actually take as long or longer then me to get ready to go out sometimes
and I am the one saying "honey you look fine."
The way you respect your part of our closet...all 12 hangers.
I love a butch for all of this and so much more...
But what I love the most about you...Is your like having the best of both genders all in one package<g> Emotionally, mentally, and physically I can relate to you.
And I never have to remind you to put down the toilet seat!

Written by me
From my heart.

[Kosmo]

What about in those cases someone is talking about someone that's not even in the room/city/state/country? You can only call out what you hear or see.

But they'll have you! ;).

[Kim]

I couldn't identify with the original author's "ode to butches." While some of the sentiments rang true to me, it was full of stereotypes, and certainly didn't accurately describe any butch that I've ever known. Plus, I don't think it's necessary to insult femmes to get your point across about why you love butches so much. Really, is it hard to see into the soul of a femme because we are wearing "tons" of makeup? A sporty femme can't have big muscles? Don't like our pouty lips and other "signs" of femme (whatever that means)?

I also think it's difficult to do an "ode to butches" because the group is just so big and diverse. Now an "ode to" one particular butch, that would be a different story and I would read with great interest.

[Mister Bent]

I feel annoyed.

Oh hey, me too!

I feel annoyed that this thread is posted in a forum subtitled "For all things butch," but then provides a limited definition of a single subset of butch.

I feel annoyed at the way the same handful of butches seem to feel the need to moderate all conversations about butch from their own perspective of what butch is/is not.

I feel annoyed that the most interesting conversations spawned by this otherwise clichéd "ode" have devolved into yet another battle in the on-going gender war, instead of pursuit of those avenues of discourse.

I feel annoyed that the same person, Wildcat, continues to rant about antagonists, derailing, and the agendas of others while clearly doing exactly the same thing with those kinds of posts. Word: When people disagree with you, or come at a thing from a different place they aren't necessarily antagonizing - they're stating their opinion, speaking from their experience, which is no less valid than yours or that of those who think just like you. Maybe you are full of peace, love and lentils, but it ain't necessarily coming across in your words and effusive punctuation.

What I think *feels* most annoying, is that so much energy is spent on this site talking about our differences and inability to understand one another, that it's a wonder to me that we need this, or any other, site at all in order to engage in "community." What all this feels like to me is an elbowing for space, jockeying for territory and a whole lot of denial.

Kosmo, you mention sabotage - I might want to agree with you, as it seems the same few do, in fact, reappear in thread after thread, attempting to speak for butch. Here's news, they don't own butch, and they sure as hell don't speak for all that is butch.

[MizzSabra]

But they'll have you! ;).

I am only responsible for my own bad behavior.

[Hudson]

Wow...
Never thought of it this way.
A light bulb moment for me for sure, what a profound statement.

I will admit when I was with my ex (who I couldn't stand) I had a crush on Martha Stewart. I was attracted to her attention to detail and cooking skills.

I was one of those who felt objectified and erased by the ode to butches post written by a bio male.

Hypocritical would be an honest assessment MizzSabra, and Im quite embarrassed to say Im guilty.

I will also say that this site often feels like a safe haven for me in a world where I am often invisible. A place where I dont expect to be wolf-whisteled by construction workers or pinched on the ass while standing in line. Because we know that shit happens in the real world.
And I probably wouldnt have ever objectified Martha Stewart to her face if she ever showed up on this site.

Love this post.

And Martha's attention to detail - right with you there.

[BullDog]

Oh hey, me too!

I feel annoyed that this thread is posted in a forum subtitled "For all things butch," but then provides a limited definition of a single subset of butch.

I feel annoyed at the way the same handful of butches seem to feel the need to moderate all conversations about butch from their own perspective of what butch is/is not.

I feel annoyed that the most interesting conversations spawned by this otherwise clichéd "ode" have devolved into yet another battle in the on-going gender war, instead of pursuit of those avenues of discourse.

I feel annoyed that the same person, Wildcat, continues to rant about antagonists, derailing, and the agendas of others while clearly doing exactly the same thing with those kinds of posts. Word: When people disagree with you, or come at a thing from a different place they aren't necessarily antagonizing - they're stating their opinion, speaking from their experience, which is no less valid than yours or that of those who think just like you. Maybe you are full of peace, love and lentils, but it ain't necessarily coming across in your words and effusive punctuation.

What I think *feels* most annoying, is that so much energy is spent on this site talking about our differences and inability to understand one another, that it's a wonder to me that we need this, or any other, site at all in order to engage in "community." What all this feels like to me is an elbowing for space, jockeying for territory and a whole lot of denial.

Kosmo, you mention sabotage - I might want to agree with you, as it seems the same few do, in fact, reappear in thread after thread, attempting to speak for butch. Here's news, they don't own butch, and they sure as hell don't speak for all that is butch.


The Ode was allegedly penned to Butch Women, but as a butch of a different stripe if you appreciate it, by all means please let us know how you feel.

[evolveme]

The Ode was allegedly penned to Butch Women, but as a butch of a different stripe if you appreciate it, by all means please let us know how you feel.

I've only seen so obvious an elitism expressed around our (denied) "hierarchies" whenever femmes pat-pat and welcome transwomen into their spaces with that little discomfort they try to hide behind their eyes and under their voices.

I'm sure someone was just "taking up too much space."

[Mister Bent]

The Ode was allegedly penned to Butch Women, but as a butch of a different stripe if you appreciate it, by all means please let us know how you feel.

Right, see my first point. And thanks for giving me the ok to post here, I wasn't aware your approval was necessary, though you certainly spend a lot of time moderating the direction of the conversation.

I think my third point (damn, should have used bullets) makes it clear what I think of the OP when I called it "clichéd." I agree with Kim, "it was full of stereotypes, and certainly didn't accurately describe any butch that I've ever known."

What I do find interesting is the avenue of dialog (albeit one some people have attempted to divert) with regard to butches and male attraction. Hell yeah - I find that shit fascinating!

I am intrigued by male attraction to butches, gay men, sure, but what I find most compelling is heterosexual male sexual attraction to butch. On at least one level, it interests me for the ways in which it validates the argument for sexuality existing on a continuum. We're talking about a "straight" man sexually attracted to another masculine presence. Not gay, but gay? I want to dissect that, put it under a microscope and take pictures. Sure, that's not what the OP was talking about, but the dialog has attempted to take us there, and I for one don't understand all the defensiveness surrounding it.

Heterosexual men have hit on me in the past, and it doesn't make me question my own masculinity or sexuality - I never feel threatened in that way - but it sure as shootin' makes me question theirs. I don't judge them, but I'm decidedly curious and have yet to find a man with whom I could have that conversation.


I'm sure someone was just "taking up too much space."

So just elbow them out!

[SuperFemme]

Isn't an "Ode to <insert subject matter" a very personal diatribe from one person about something? From a very personal viewpoint. Trying to apply this to a group as a blanket is kind of silly. Take Beethovens Ode to Joy. Love that piece but MY Ode to Joy would look/sound much different. My Ode to Femme would be way way different than a butchs (of any flavor). Perhaps we not need bulldoze over others Odes to make them fit the general us?

[BullDog]

Mister Bent have fun talking about whatever it is you want to talk about.

I have only objected to people putting thoughts and feelings into my and other butches heads.

Oh and I never said who could or couldn't post here, so don't throw that crap at me. It's not sticking.

[Cyclopea]

Now THAT'S a beautiful "ode"!
Thank you for sharing this Feminine Allure.
:rrose:

What I love most about a butch is...

I love the dichotomy of a butch...
Something with seemingly contradictory qualities...
Your female body with that masculine strut.
Your yang balancing my yin.
Your hardness and your softness.
Your roughness with your gentleness.
Your making love to me with a cock while knowing every part of my body like your own.
Being in a woman's body and wearing men's clothing. And looking better than they do in them.
Your strong protective arms holding my hand that is smaller like yours.
The smell of your sweat and testosterone from working on my car for me. Then smelling freshly showered cooking your favorite recipe for us.
Playing pool with your friends for the afternoon and that evening... helping me paint my toenails and choosing me a color knowing the importance of it matching my lipstick.
Wanting to watch monday night football and not being afraid to cry when your team looses. LOL
Comfortable only in your boots. Yet also willing to wear a pair of my sandals in a pinch< that fit you perfectly> to run out to the store to get me my favorite icecream.
You often have a selective memory yet you remember my favorite icecream, flowers, and our anniversary a month before it even comes up.
The way you say to me "honey I know just what your going through" once a month and truly do.
The way you willingly will allow me to test a perfume on you I want to smell in a store... yet I ran out of room on my own body to still smell anything.
The way you let me hold a pair of earrings or a purse or an outfit up to you to see what it will look like on me and men walking by us looking at you and thinking "poor guy."
The way you ignore any whispers or laughter at us together as your eyes glance at his crotch and you laugh back thinking "at least I get to choose my size"
The way men don't look twice at us while you pull out my chair for me and open doors.
The way you actually take as long or longer then me to get ready to go out sometimes
and I am the one saying "honey you look fine."
The way you respect your part of our closet...all 12 hangers.
I love a butch for all of this and so much more...
But what I love the most about you...Is your like having the best of both genders all in one package<g> Emotionally, mentally, and physically I can relate to you.
And I never have to remind you to put down the toilet seat!

Written by me
From my heart.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Isn't an "Ode to <insert subject matter" a very personal diatribe from one person about something? From a very personal viewpoint. Trying to apply this to a group as a blanket is kind of silly. Take Beethovens Ode to Joy. Love that piece but MY Ode to Joy would look/sound much different. My Ode to Femme would be way way different than a butchs (of any flavor). Perhaps we not need bulldoze over others Odes to make them fit the general us?


I know Wikipedia isn't always correct but in order to cite my source about the word Ode:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ode

noted that it says an Ode is dedicated to someone or something....

[Mister Bent]

Mister Bent have fun talking about whatever it is you want to talk about.

I have only objected to people putting thoughts and feelings into my and other butches heads.

Oh and I never said who could or couldn't post here, so don't through that crap at me. It's not sticking.


This denial and dismissiveness from you has become as predictable as villagers with pitchforks.

Maybe you haven't noticed that I'm not the only person to call you out on your behavior.

"I have only objected to people putting thoughts and feelings into my and other butches heads."

I clearly object to you speaking for "other butches," as I am one. Maybe if you spoke from your "I" place and called it quits there.

[BullDog]

This denial and dismissiveness from you has become as predictable as villagers with pitchforks.

Maybe you haven't noticed that I'm not the only person to call you out on your behavior.

"I have only objected to people putting thoughts and feelings into my and other butches heads."

I clearly object to you speaking for "other butches," as I am one. Maybe if you spoke from your "I" place and called it quits there.




I don't appreciate being told that I am in some sort of panic. It wasn't implied just about me.

Should I tell you how you are feeling?

[SuperFemme]

I know Wikipedia isn't always correct but in order to cite my source about the word Ode:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ode

noted that it says an Ode is dedicated to someone or something....

Thanks for the lesson. I am quite aware of what an Ode is, and yes I was indeed pointing out that it is to someone or something. My point is that the Ode comes from ONE persons views of that someone or something and is usually from within the realm of the writers life experience. Not the world at large.

[evolveme]

Mister Bent have fun talking about whatever it is you want to talk about.



This is the part where I take a tangential little side road to talk about debate, yet again, because for me, these spaces are more networks than communities and while networks are highly meaningful spaces in emotional and other ways, it is important that they also be useful ones. If we are to engage, ever, on substantive issues - as we appear to be doing in this thread (again, around the topic of "identity" and what-all that can mean for us individually and collectively), it is important that we attempt to adhere to some basic principles of debate.

I'm not picking on you, Bulldog, and as I've said to you before - whether you choose to believe it or not - I do respect you - but what you have just illustrated above is, again, something I've heard called "conversational cowardice" (thank you, Honeychile). Simply dropping a line like this and ceasing the effort of constructive engagement may make you feel better, it may offer you some form of emotional release, but it is poor form, man! It offers nothing toward the argument (yours or anyone's) and it is, in a word: rude.

I strongly advise against it.

We can all snark. Some of us could win fucking Tony Awards in snarkery, and personally, I think where snark is dead, so is dialogue, but come on, let us keep the conversation going. Dropping a line such as the above and walking out serves no one. Least of all the passion behind the beliefs with which you chose to pick up the thread of debate in the first place.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Thanks for the lesson. I am quite aware of what an Ode is, and yes I was indeed pointing out that it is to someone or something. My point is that the Ode comes from ONE persons views of that someone or something and is usually from within the realm of the writers life experience. Not the world at large.



No problem and yes you would be right that it does come from ONE person and ONE person only views.

I thought maybe some linkage may help is all :thinking:

[Mister Bent]

I don't appreciate being told that I am in some sort of panic. It wasn't implied just about me.

Should I tell you how you are feeling?

It would be irrelevant.

Frankly, my interest in this thread isn't the number of times in which you opted to speak for butch (the one example you provided isn't the sole) nor the number of times you've attempted to police the conversation.

I took the time to compose a post with regard to what I do find compelling, and that's the conversation I'd be willing to continue.

[MizzSabra]

Wow...
Never thought of it this way.
A light bulb moment for me for sure, what a profound statement.

I will admit when I was with my ex (who I couldn't stand) I had a crush on Martha Stewart. I was attracted to her attention to detail and cooking skills.

I was one of those who felt objectified and erased by the ode to butches post written by a bio male.

Hypocritical would be an honest assessment MizzSabra, and Im quite embarrassed to say Im guilty.

I will also say that this site often feels like a safe haven for me in a world where I am often invisible. A place where I dont expect to be wolf-whisteled by construction workers or pinched on the ass while standing in line. Because we know that shit happens in the real world.
And I probably wouldnt have ever objectified Martha Stewart to her face if she ever showed up on this site.

Thanks for this. :)

Yeah, the guys wolf whistling or "hey baby"ing me don't really get a second glance. Whatever. I know that shit happens. We can't be the world's police (well actually the U.S. thinks they are, but that's another thread).

Do I objectify my boifriend? Hell yeah I do!
Does she objectify me? Hell yeah she does!
Do we like it? Hell yeah!

Objectification isn't really a problem for me, it's the hypocrisy that comes with some people that bothers me. "I can do it, but god forbid if anyone says anything to me!" That is the shit that gets my goat.

[BullDog]

This is the part where I take a tangential little side road to talk about debate, yet again, because for me, these spaces are more networks than communities and while networks are highly meaningful spaces in emotional and other ways, it is important that they also be useful ones. If we are to engage, ever, on substantive issues - as we appear to be doing in this thread (again, around the topic of "identity" and what-all that can mean for us individually and collectively), it is important that we attempt to adhere to some basic principles of debate.

I'm not picking on you, Bulldog, and as I've said to you before - whether you choose to believe it or not - I do respect you - but what you have just illustrated above is, again, something I've heard called "conversational cowardice" (thank you, Honeychile). Simply dropping a line like this and ceasing the effort of constructive engagement may make you feel better, it may offer you some form of emotional release, but it is poor form, man! It offers nothing toward the argument (yours or anyone's) and it is, in a word: rude.

I strongly advise against it.

We can all snark. Some of us could win fucking Tony Awards in snarkery, and personally, I think where snark is dead, so is dialogue, but come on, let us keep the conversation going. Dropping a line such as the above and walking out serves no one. Least of all the passion behind the beliefs with which you chose to pick up the thread of debate in the first place.


I am not policing the thread. Mister Bent is free to talk about whatever he wants.

I see no attempt at meaningful dialogue or constructive engagement with me.

[BullDog]

Anyway I am going to take the advice of June. For those who wish to discuss the topic of Odes to Butches please enjoy your conversation.

[Cyclopea]

Anyway I am going to take the advice of June. For those who wish to discuss the topic of Odes to Butches please enjoy your conversation.

Bulldog I always enjoy your posts. But when the personal attacks start perhaps it is time to step away. When someone attacked WILDCAT's punctuation (!!) that pretty much did it for me.
Peace.
:)

[Mister Bent]

Objectification isn't really a problem for me, it's the hypocrisy that comes with some people that bothers me. "I can do it, but god forbid if anyone says anything to me!" That is the shit that gets my goat.

Objectification, as you demonstrate, has its place (and its hotness). I agree with you on the hypocrisy, and would also say that the intent behind the objectification and what we do with it that becomes problematic. Objectify me all you want, it may be the limit of our engagement, and so what of it? But if it comes from a subjugating or otherwise dangerous place, then I'm going to take issue.

[SuperFemme]

As the Disability Ambassador for this site, I'd like to gently remind you that there are many members who suffer varying degrees of different-abledness. WildCat is one of those members.

Posting with a brain injury can be very difficult. To be called out as rambling and over punctuated is not in the spirit of inclusiveness that we are trying to achieve here. I'm asking posters to try to remember that when responding to posts. Let's practice a little kindness.

[Mister Bent]

Bulldog I always enjoy your posts. But when the personal attacks start perhaps it is time to step away. When someone attacked WILDCAT's punctuation (!!) that pretty much did it for me.
Peace.
:)

As the Disability Ambassador for this site, I'd like to gently remind you that there are many members who suffer varying degrees of different-abledness. WildCat is one of those members.

Posting with a brain injury can be very difficult. To be called out as rambling and over punctuated is not in the spirit of inclusiveness that we are trying to achieve here. I'm asking posters to try to remember that when responding to posts. Let's practice a little kindness.


Speaking as "someone" -

I was making no "attack" on punctuation/grammar/rambling. What I referred to was simply the use of multiple exclamation points and style of posting that creates an appearance not of peaceful dialogue, but impassioned argument and how that might itself appear antagonistic.

[Bit]

I'm in a quandary. I want to participate in this thread, but I don't want to be part of the current conversation... I want to talk about the opening post, but it seems oddly inappropriate, somehow...

Quickly edited to clarify---I am NOT calling the OP inappropriate, I'm saying that going back to the stated thread topic somehow seems inappropriate... and isn't that ironic....

[Admin]

This thread needs to get back on topic.

And it is quite obvious to me that we need to do some addressing amongst ourselves of the REAL issues that keep bubbling to the surface.

There is a chasm here. A gap. A muddy-ass river of bullshit that needs to be crossed. Or not.

What can't keep happening is that threads devolve into ugly, nasty hatefulness and we keep having a circle-jerk of who is doing what or saying what and somehow at the end, we are no further in our understanding of one another.

I am going to create a new forum. A "Red Zone". It will be an experiment.
Look for it.

Until then, keep this thread on topic or I will burst a vein and send all of you the bill.

[Waldo]

Until then, keep this thread on topic or I will burst a vein and send all of you the bill.

If we had a better health care system that wouldn't scare me as much.

[WILDCAT]

Oh hey, me too!

I feel annoyed that this thread is posted in a forum subtitled "For all things butch," but then provides a limited definition of a single subset of butch.

I feel annoyed at the way the same handful of butches seem to feel the need to moderate all conversations about butch from their own perspective of what butch is/is not.

I feel annoyed that the most interesting conversations spawned by this otherwise clichéd "ode" have devolved into yet another battle in the on-going gender war, instead of pursuit of those avenues of discourse.

I feel annoyed that the same person, Wildcat, continues to rant about antagonists, derailing, and the agendas of others while clearly doing exactly the same thing with those kinds of posts. Word: When people disagree with you, or come at a thing from a different place they aren't necessarily antagonizing - they're stating their opinion, speaking from their experience, which is no less valid than yours or that of those who think just like you. Maybe you are full of peace, love and lentils, but it ain't necessarily coming across in your words and effusive punctuation.What I think *feels* most annoying, is that so much energy is spent on this site talking about our differences and inability to understand one another, that it's a wonder to me that we need this, or any other, site at all in order to engage in "community." What all this feels like to me is an elbowing for space, jockeying for territory and a whole lot of denial.

Kosmo, you mention sabotage - I might want to agree with you, as it seems the same few do, in fact, reappear in thread after thread, attempting to speak for butch. Here's news, they don't own butch, and they sure as hell don't speak for all that is butch.
___

Mr. Bent, you are completely in the wrong here. No, I wasn't in any "rant".

My last two posts here were trying to be peaceful and community caring - whether you believe me or not, I don't care. I was speaking in a generalized way, except for what I specifically addressed to Mz.S. Which, quite frankly, is none of your business. I was talking about "me". Men and "me". To her. I welcome feedback, but this was uncalled for.

But, this is single most rudest thing anyone has ever written to/about me since I've been on either of the Butch/femme sites, since... Oct. of Nov. 07 (I believe that's correct).

So thank you. What else can I say to that? This couldn't be more off the mark either, but it says alot about you and your personality here - to me. In fact, it kind of validates my concern about folks being nasty here.

I haven't directed anything to you at all. Or again, anyone here today, but one post. Mz S. your response to me seemed full of anger, and was quite pissy as well. I wrote you a nice true from my heart response with spirit of community. What are you few so angry about? I've done nothing to anyone here and try to be fair minded and welcoming of all.

Screw anyone who doesn't like my letter writing style. Or, how I express myself. That is very nasty too. Sleep well on that. Christ that sounds like grade school shit. Are you upset because ONE TIME I wrote to you on a thread and said "it felt like you try and then take it back"? That is my ONLY history with you here on this entire site, so what right do you have coming after me like this? Where are your manners?

And I don't like lentils, thanks for the sarcastic inference there about folk's lifestyles or whatever that meant to you. You do not know me AT ALL. That was senseless.

Peace be with you in the new year. And I mean that. And to you folks who thank this kind of stuff too, I don't appreciate it. But, good for you.

Wildcat

*I stand by my posts. Thank you.

[Linus]

All right. It's been asked over and over again to get back into topic.

Since no one will, this thread is closed.

There is a handful of you here who seem to dislike each other. I'm going to strongly suggest that you all put each other on ignore (go to your User CP --> Edit Ignore list --> put the person who annoys you into the list and hit Okay). This kind of sniping and ad hominim attacks are unnecessary.

If you cannot learn to step back, I'm sure we can find a way to help you with this if necessary.

Now... where'd my burst vein get to??