June Cleaver : Femme Friend or Femme Foe

[The_Lady_Snow]

READ DISCLAIMER PLEASE


*** I would like to keep this conversation as a FEMME ONLY conversation. If you would like to have this very conversation about the "totem person" of your gender please do so in in your specific Zones. If like myself you want to keep it to specific identity/gender ask in a disclaimer so the conversation is uninterrupted. I've discussed this particular detail with Medusa and got the OK to ask for this allowance***



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June Cleaver: Friend or Foe?


http://momstart.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/clip_image001_thumb.jpg


June Cleaver gets brought up a lot in our community as a Femme Role Model, a Femme Achievement Heirarchy, Femme Wife Model, How Femme Should Behave.


How did society/this forum come to that conclusion? What is the attraction? Is this part of your kink? Is it edge play for you if kink is involved? Is it a power dynamic? Does it get your juices flowing? Are you wondering how this came about? Do you even care who she is or what she seems to stand for? How does this affect you as a Femme of Color?


I love how in this community we break down things and examine them throughly and listen to one another without personalizing it or having to crap on someone/someones when we do.


Let's dismantle this and talk about all of it the good the bad and the ugly but please, please when we do let's do it in an adult manner and not take jabs at one another.

Discuss.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I can't nor will I ever be able to identify with June Cleaver, and when I say June Cleaver I mean by the character not the woman who played the character which is two totally different things.


I can't identify or see myself as her because June is not a woman I see as Femme, for me (and this is me posting from my me place) she's a straight woman and for me Femme is my gender and it's a Queer identity. On top of that not only is she not Femme (for me), she's straight, she's portrayed as upper middle class, and she's white.


I can though in a power dynamic, or kink situation, role playing, and edge playing see how I could maybe attempt to imitate the whole scene of staying home, dressing up, putting on an apron, and having everything perfect for when boy of weather walks in the door.


At this point of hotness I would be role playing with the twist of June having Ward come home, do what Ward does best:

Changed into more casual clothing

Go into the office

Check on Worm

Ask what's for dinner

BUT then, in my Cleaver universe "Ward" would drop to the kneeling position, ask about my day, serve me a drink, and then my dinner. This would lead into other deviant scenarious and BAM!!

We have role play, kink, power exchange and all well in Snow world! I'd am/be happy.


I have more thoughts but I need to get back to work.

[JustJo]

Thank you for starting this thread Snow. I've been reading the developing conversation in the other zone and didn't feel like I should be jumping in there.

Anyway...I have all kinds of weird, twisted up feelings about that 1950s housewife ideal. I had an opposite upbringing from a lot of women...my mother was vehemently (and angrily) feminist and all of the messages that I got as a girl were that all traditional female roles and activities were wrong, bad, stupid and anyone with half a brain should avoid them at all costs. She wanted me to take shop, not home economics, and play sports, not play with dolls. I was forbidden from taking typing class, and was not allowed to own a Barbie or play dress up.

The problematic part, for me, is that all of my natural inclinations pulled me in traditional female roles. Not because I got that messaging on TV (we didn't own one) and not because I was getting it at home or even in my immediate friend circles. It was just there....internal....from as early as I could remember.

My first career goal (at about age 8) was to be a hairdresser. My second thought (when that was shot down and criticized mightily) was to be a teacher....a middle school home economics teacher. I might as well have been saying I wanted to be a mass murderer.

Roll forward through many years and a variety of life experiences....and I'm a mixture. I've been an independent, self-supporting woman my entire life. First job at 15, moved away from home, put myself through college, single mom, more college, more work, three failed marriages (to bio men....duh....slow learner). Out in the world I am strong, independent, pushy and professional. I make my own decisions, run my own life....and good luck to anyone who tries to belittle, head pat or condescend to me.

When it comes to personal, intimate relationships....much of me swings back to my natural inclination. I want to cook my love's favorite meals and do little things to make them happy. I'll clean house, give backrubs....and I really honestly do want them to take care of the yard and the maintenance of the house and my car. Some would say I am living that old stereotype in my relationships....after all, I want my partner to take the lead in bed....and, yes, I want to be babied and honeyed and taken care of....that neglected little girl inside wants to be cradled and protected and treasured.

It's not kink...but one of the things I love absolutely the most is to be cooking (yes, generally in a dress and barefoot) in the kitchen, and have my love walk up behind me, wrap their arms around me, kiss my neck and try to interfere with my cooking.

Does that make me somehow less femme, less independent, less strong.....hell no.

Both of those are parts of me....the strong, independent, pushy broad....and the girl who wants to be the doting wife. There's no conflict, and one doesn't invalidate the other.

I think where we get into trouble is when we add a "should" or a "better" in there somewhere. For me there is no "should" for how anyone should behave (with the exception of hopefully having some kind of character and moral compass)....and no lifestyle or way of being is better or worse than any other. If we are glorifying June Cleaver as the ideal for ALL women....then I call bullshit. If you (general you) choose to glorify her as YOUR personal ideal...then have a good time rocking that apron and heels.

:rrose:

[Medusa]

Snowy- I hope you don't mind I made a tiny edit up there and changed it to "if you want to have this conversation "about the totem person of your gender" then have it".

I think it would be a different animal if Butches or Transmen wanted to start a thread to dismantle their ideas about June Clever without us being able to interact. I think though if they'd like to start a thread about how they think about Ward Clever or some other person who has been held up as the standard for masculinity, it's good.

Problem for Femmes is that we are so often conflated with straight women stereotypes so Butches and Transmen don't have a Butch or Trans person to look toward the way we do with June Clever. I do think that Butches and Transmen get conflated with biomen quite often but it's a different kind of invisibility than we deal with.

I think June Clever has come to symbolize the Martha Stewart of her day - "I can make a HOME and FAMILY like nobody else can!" along with other symbols like "pure", "right", "white", and "of a certain class".

I love me some Martha Stewart but she doesn't have the same connotations to me that June Clever does, mainly because of June being in a stylelized family dynamic on the sitcom.

Even my Granny said that "nobody lived like that in the 50s" when referrring to Leave it to Beaver!

[Nomad]

i'm thinking. and as we all know that could take me a while. so i'm reading and thinking and i'll be back. thank you Lady Snow for this conversation and to Medusa for making space for it.

[The_Lady_Snow]

How did society/this forum come to that conclusion?


I am a firm believer that the way women are portrayed in media is the downfall for many of us who don't fall into the conclusions/opinions/impositions that people place on woman/Femme.

Sexism, Mysoginy and oppression have a key role in the boxing of women. When we come interact be it real time or in online situations some of that bleeds into our tapestry. It's engrained in us and it takes a lot of work (if you choose to) to get to a point of hey this is something I am ok with or hey this is something I am not ok with.


I also feel that people want women to stay quiet (look at our Politicians) and while some of us are ok and happy with that box others of us aren't going to be.

We just gotta figure out when having these discussions be they in our personal hoola hoop (an ArweNism) or not that we do so in mind that we're all going to roll differently and that as long as we DO NOT impose our stuff on others we can all dismantle all the stuff that comes with the June Cleaver phenomenon.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I want to share that when searching for a picture of June Cleaver there wasn't one that really tells anything about "June" herself other than gender imposed markers.

Hair, perfectly prestine at all times

Make up, modest

Clothing, A dress heels and an apron

The apron, it's in at least 80% of the pictures of June if not more though the apron could cover her hips to top of knee to full frontal covering.


Shoes, a heel always a heel

Pearls, earings, bracelet, 2 string necklace

I had to think about it and ask myself:

we really have no clue who this woman is, other than wife, mother and cook.


It's interesting, disturbing and a little sad. It's rough for me as a woman to have a woman reduced to nothing but that, and then I understand that if one is into objectification then how hot it can be and is.

I can't for myself do the servitude scene, that particular role isn't appealing to me because it's not natural since I can't begin to understand that I must submit.

[Beloved]

I can't comment on June Cleaver because I never could stand to watch that show. But I think the 50's are way overrated. I would NOT want to go back to that era. As Bully, Princess Belle, and others were stating, it was a time of great oppression for anyone who wasn't a heterosexual white male. "The good ol' days" are a myth.

[thedivahrrrself]

Ah, the 50's - love the fashions, leave everything else. :)

<-- still doesn't know exactly who June Cleaver is

[Gráinne]

What's interesting to me, and I might be all wrong, is that all these idealized women like June, Donna Reed, Harriet Nelson, Lucy (to some extent, though her goal was always a career) and even Ma Ingalls all came about during or just after a period of great social upheaval, especially for women. WWII saw women working in great numbers; the '60's were a time of racial and political upheaval, and the '70's were marked by an unpopular foreign war and Watergate. I know that's incredibly simplistic, but interesting to me.

I don't think the people who wrote those programs necessarily thought they reflected reality in any way, or even some idealized way of living, but they were escapism. Even today, I don't want to watch programs about people struggling with their kids or in crumbling relationships-I've lived that! And much of TV, with few exceptions, until All In The Family and its spinoffs (especially Good Times), did not portray people of color in "real" lives with all its pain and struggles. To be blunt, probably more upper middle class whites owned TV sets back then, and so they were more likely to want to watch programs about people just like them (if idealized).

Even as fictional, unrealistic characters, I don't think all these women were necessarily "bad" for Femmes or detrimental. It's all in balance and applying what qualities appeal and disregarding the rest of the messages. As a mother myself, I'm far from any of them (maybe a few rungs above Peg Bundy), but June, Donna and Caroline Ingalls were patient, fair and yet held high expectations for their "children". That's something I can take from the shows.

I don't think there's anything nefarious in itself in wanting to keep an orderly, tidy home for one's children or partner-as Jo says, that quality doesn't take away from independence or smarts (and she is wicked smart ;)). Ma was portrayed as independent and willing to work when circumstances demanded it. All these women, even Lucy, showed initiative, thinking, and service.

I think we have to remember that TV reflected what was going on in society during that time, as unenlightened as it seems today. The 1950's were not that far off from Amos n' Andy on radio, or truly offensive Bugs Bunny cartoons. And maybe June herself isn't the role model, but some of the qualities that she and the other mother figures (I might even throw in Kitty on Bonanza) of the time embodied appeal today, when so much seems unsure and more "callous".

I'm not sure if I made any sense, and apologies if I offended in any way.

[The_Lady_Snow]

What is the attraction?


I am unsure, if I had to guess I would have say that it's the nurturing (cooking, cleaning, doing the mom thing, overly attentive wife role. I can see how these things would be appealing if one was in the dynamic where these specifics were desired.


As a woman who can't identify in this manner I don't like it, it's not for me and I find it to be exploiting, dismissing, erasing of "June". I want to know more about June Cleaver what she thinks, who she hangs out with, what's her favorite color, and does want to beat her kids asses when they are assholes.

She's (June) is one dimensional and my mind is like WHAT!!! It does this because women aren't one dimensional were vast endless compartments of variety.

It's a double edged sword for me, it makes me go huh, I can see how that works and yet it tugs the very core of what makes me Snow when I see her compared to or elevated to Femme personification.

[easygoingfemme]

Interesting discussion.
I'll start with saying it never would have crossed my mind to compare myself/shoot for a June Cleaver type life, nor would I have thought that in identifying as femme I might somehow be expected to.

I have, however, had other thoughts about what it meant to be femme, and it's something that made me resist that label for years. (didn't stop me from being weak in the knees over the butches, but that's another story). When I was coming out and getting established in the community, The femme role was taught to me as more of a weakness, a less than, or a fashion statement that I didn't understand, relate to, or want. So I just did my thing and was just... me- somewhere in the middle I guess.

As for the power dynamic and the Cleaver "ideal", that's something I have always rejected. I watched my mom try to live that life and I would argue her about it- to stop packing lunches and trying to make everything "as it should be" when she obviously wasn't happy doing so and she was not being appreciated, especially by my father.

One thing I love about the planet is that it helped me deeply validate that I can be my own independent stubborn person, and at the same time be all :cheer::cheerleader: about that which is the magic of the butch-femme-dance. And I can be my own femme in that dance as I have created her. That we all have our own definition of our label and we respect how each other walk what we have chosen and what feels *right* to us.

A few years ago I found myself up to my ears in a relationship that had been founded on complete equality and over the course of years had diminished into a vastly different picture where I had become, in essence, a housewife. Mind you I still worked and financially supported myself, but I was not an equal person in relationship to my partner and there were major expectations that I was going to be the one doing, well, the June Cleaver jobs, and that I was to accept whatever my partner wanted to do whenever she wanted to do it. When it became clear to me that we weren't going to find our footing back to equality, I ended the relationship. It took a year to get there, we both fought the end in our own ways, and it meant leaving my home and starting all over with a teenager in tow, but it was not a dynamic I could have ever lived with because I was being disrespected on so many levels. FOR ME, that role in a relationship would never work.

So that's my .02 on the issue. I think it's something that so many women face, not just in our community, not even close. I think for some women, it works. It is what is *right* for them. But if it's not what's right for both parties, I can't imagine either person in the relationship being happy with it. On the flip side of this, I would never be able to be happy in a relationship where a partner of mine was not living a fulfilling life, especially if they were not being fulfilled because of a dynamic that existed in our relationship.

THANK YOU for bringing this up!

Love the BFP.

[Medusa]

See! I can get alllllll up into some submission and slap on an apron and heels and balance a pie delicately on a plate while serving it in that oh-o-dainty way. That way that says "Oh, aren't I just the tiniest little thing!"

But it's part of playtime. Until it's not.

I'm all about serving and most of the time that has nothing to do with submission. I like to make other people feel good. I like to make food for other people. My payoff is a sense of satisfaction so in that regard, I can see how adopting that "PowerJune" persona (role-play) works for folks if that's their thing!

I can see how the part of the June Clever idealism where she can perfectly present everything is super attractive. I can see the doting caretaker part being attractive.

I find that attractive in other people, Butches, Femmes, and Transmen alike. I like that (consensual) level of attention and I like to give that level of attention (consensually) as well.

I wonder if folks who really identify with the "50s housewife" (and I am sometimes one of them) are teasing out the parts that are about perfection and caretaking? I know I get especially pleased with myself knowing that I work 50 hours a week, go to school full time, maintain this site with the help of the other Mods, keep a clean house, cook dinners, and do all of that while washing my ass on a schedule and maintaining a cheery attitude. One of my girlfriends at work calls me "Martha Stewart Superwoman" because she says I do it all while looking good.
I don't do it ALL but I appreciate that she is recognizing how much energy I am putting into things.

Anyway, I'm rambling.

Great thread!

[The_Lady_Snow]

3. Is this part of your kink?



No, but I can't say I wouldn't role play "kept woman"








4. Is it edge play for you if kink is involved?


I would see this as edge play if it the two participants were pushing/exploring boundaries they never have.






5. Is it a power dynamic?




I think it can be, in my personal dynamic I would not be like the stereotypical June because well I happen to like being the oppressor not the oppressed. When I speak of this I am talking about consensual power dynamic exchanges.




5. Does it get your juices flowing?


Pearls do, I believe this is my objectifier compartment there's something about pearls....

[JustJo]

Piggybacking off of Medusa's post....

I think some of the that is the same for me. I'm not into submission, but I am into service. I like to do things for the people in my life....partly because it makes them feel good, and partly because it makes me feel good.

And, yes, I confess there's a little bit of the superwoman thing too. I have prided myself on always supporting myself, working, taking care of my son, maintaining a home, putting myself through school, getting an advanced degree....and still being able to bake from scratch or make my own jam.

My pushy broad peeks in too....and I'm just as liable to be pushing the people in my life to do better, which I'm sure can be rather annoying. :)

[Gráinne]

I was thinking of two other TV women from around the same time who may seem almost the opposite-Lily Munster and Morticia Addams. Ignoring the fact that their houses were supposed to look like that, each prided themselves on the appearance of their homes (well, Morticia had servants). Both were devoted mothers, and Lily was often a font of wisdom for her niece, Marilyn (who was far closer to the "ideal" 60's woman).

It's interesting, maybe only to me, that Lily was one of the few TV wives who was portrayed as being more decisive and perhaps smarter than her husband. She swung into effective action to try to get the family out of a jam of Herman's making. Both of them, but especially Morticia, brought sex appeal back. She wasn't afraid to show "heat" with Gomez.

Maybe the only way TV mothers and wives could be that sexy and independent was to be almost freakish and foreign, especially to the "normal" people around them.

[easygoingfemme]

Piggybacking off of Medusa's post....

I think some of the that is the same for me. I'm not into submission, but I am into service. I like to do things for the people in my life....partly because it makes them feel good, and partly because it makes me feel good.

And, yes, I confess there's a little bit of the superwoman thing too. I have prided myself on always supporting myself, working, taking care of my son, maintaining a home, putting myself through school, getting an advanced degree....and still being able to bake from scratch or make my own jam.

My pushy broad peeks in too....and I'm just as liable to be pushing the people in my life to do better, which I'm sure can be rather annoying. :)


See and that's the cool thing- doing it because you want to and it's who you are. Then it's not a submission. I love providing too, I love giving and smoothing the corners, and knowing just how to take care of someone. But if the dynamic shifted to where I was supposed to do that because of the name behind my role in the relationship, and that it wasn't an option for me if I wasn't feeling it one day...that's when the scale tips.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Piggybacking off of Medusa's post....

I think some of the that is the same for me. I'm not into submission, but I am into service. I like to do things for the people in my life....partly because it makes them feel good, and partly because it makes me feel good.

And, yes, I confess there's a little bit of the superwoman thing too. I have prided myself on always supporting myself, working, taking care of my son, maintaining a home, putting myself through school, getting an advanced degree....and still being able to bake from scratch or make my own jam.

My pushy broad peeks in too....and I'm just as liable to be pushing the people in my life to do better, which I'm sure can be rather annoying. :)




Medusa and I talked about stuff like this, how it's not submission (unless it is) when I cook and do house stuff I do them because I like to and want to and because they need to be done. They aren't gender specific in my head. YET when I do bring the family their plate, served, I am coming from my very clear cultural space. You soy la Madre the hand that feeds. I'm specific how and who is served I control it. I can do this and connect with my property and extend my Dominant energy without interrupting the flow of what's going on and not making the family uncomfortable. My gestures are particular and then yes, I am the nurturing, sweet perfection of all things Feminine with the small hint of POWER.


That's why the "June" thing doesn't connect because I can never, ever be her no matter how I try race and culturally we are worlds apart.

[Martina]

I think what is different about the oppression of women in the fifties and now is that it was sold to us as the norm, as the way to be a real woman, and we believed it. When we didn't believe it, there were sanctions to enforce it, including violence. There are many women still who lack power in their relationships and who suffer because of that. When patriarchal ideology is is used to justify these conditions, as it sometimes is among conservative religious folk, it becomes that much harder for women to realize that they are being ill-treated, to find allies, and to get out.

The conservative women who live these lives and love it -- and there are a lot of them -- I say you are lucky. Lucky that it worked out for you. If you had gotten the wrong husband or perhaps had been very poor, what hell might it have been for you? I hope they think about that the next time they teach in Sunday School that women should obey their husbands.

Women really lacking power and being oppressed -- that's nothing I support in any way. Pretending to lack power in that and even more sickening scenarios -- I am up for that. I like much more twisted shit than that. (not sharing).

As for people who live something that LOOKS like a traditional hierarchical arrangement but isn't, good for you. Have at it. I mean, who cares? I don't see any group of lesbians or feminists criticizing women for choosing whatever kind of arrangements. I think for most, the operative word would be "choose." There may be a few, but it's no one's public agenda to tell folks how to relate to their partners. Feminists are too busy trying to make sure unfunded battered women's shelters stay open and busy trying to protect abortion rights.

The Martha Stewart phenomenon is, I think, bad and good. Seventies feminism was about claiming the public sphere for women. The eighties conservative reaction -- Izod and proms and Martha Stewart -- was, in part, a backlash, but in part a reclaiming of the things we liked about the world before feminism, including homemaking. Martha is more popular among working class women who don't have the time or resources to do what she does or live as she does than she ever was with upper middle class women. It's a fantasy. It's not a bad one if you don't take it too seriously. It's not just about being all things to all people, knowing everything, doing everything well. It's about pleasure and self-care. It's also about one's relationship to consumerism. Do you make it yourself or buy it? If you buy it, what are you buying? Where are you getting it from? For some people, it's a political issue, for some it's about the quality of the experience. More and more, it's about both.

The recession has resulted in more focus on the home. It's cheaper to be home than go out. And so many people have lost their homes that I think we appreciate them more. Figuring out one's relationship to the home and homemaking is not easy.

Re June Cleaver, I would do her. I would lift that shirt dress over her head and . . . .

[*Anya*]

I think that a lot of folks that romanticize the 50's simply never lived in that time and place.

TV aways looks better than reality!

I grew up in the 50's and 60's. What I saw in my home and the home of my friends, never matched TV.

My ex-husband was the oldest of 10. His mom was very traditional and that was what he expected of me. Unfortunately for him, from the get-go, I knew something was wrong with that picture-for me.

The day he told me that my "job" as his wife was to starch and iron all 20 of his dress shirts and hang them color-coordinated in the closet, was the day I said, "Fuck this". I put my baby in the car (had one child then), drove to the library, found the Robin Morgan anthology, Sisterhood is Powerful (hence the bumper sticker later on, on my 1974 Super Beetle); and my consciousness began to be raised.

I started facilitating consciousness raising groups in our living room (oh yeah, he really loved that!). The stories that the older women would tell of their life-long struggles to be the perfect wives and mothers of the 40's and 50's were heartbreaking. The problem with perfect is that it is unattainable!

I used my dog-eared NOW CR booklet each week and each week watched those women grow into stronger, more self-assured women, developing confidence in themselves and a life outside of the home. They began to accept that they could never achieve Donna Reed or June Cleaver.

As they gained confidence, so did I.

I believe that choosing a life, is very different than having one thrust upon you or being told that you "should" live a certain way.

June Cleaver really does not exist.

She was a Hollywood writer's creation.

We are flesh and blood women. Very human and far from perfect.

PS: I never did starch and iron those shirts, nor were the hung up color-coordinated.

I took them to the dry cleaner's.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Re June Cleaver, I would do her. I would lift that shirt dress over her head and . . . .



OMGAY!

I so wanted to go there, but I was attempting to be a tiny bit conservative. HA!!! I love it.

[*Anya*]

My fat finger slipped on my iPhone. That blue question mark below was an accident:(

[easygoingfemme]

Coming back with one more... and I'll probably be back again...

Part of the journey in my figuring it out too has been figuring out how to accept from a butch. Things like, well no shit, of course I can open that door. I could install it too. But you are opening it for me because it's part of who you are and it makes you feel good and that makes me feel good too. It's the flip side of my smoothing the collar and slipping the love note in the lunch box. This moves far beyond the opening of the door scenario of course- and I think it's an important part in not just figuring out how we give as femmes, but also how we receive without it falling into a possible preconceived notion or media fed role model.

[Beloved]

The best part of the 50's were the pin-ups.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I was thinking of two other TV women from around the same time who may seem almost the opposite-Lily Munster and Morticia Addams. Ignoring the fact that their houses were supposed to look like that, each prided themselves on the appearance of their homes (well, Morticia had servants). Both were devoted mothers, and Lily was often a font of wisdom for her niece, Marilyn (who was far closer to the "ideal" 60's woman).

It's interesting, maybe only to me, that Lily was one of the few TV wives who was portrayed as being more decisive and perhaps smarter than her husband. She swung into effective action to try to get the family out of a jam of Herman's making. Both of them, but especially Morticia, brought sex appeal back. She wasn't afraid to show "heat" with Gomez.

Maybe the only way TV mothers and wives could be that sexy and independent was to be almost freakish and foreign, especially to the "normal" people around them.


Yet none of the women portraying a more powerful role in the relationship is upheld as a model or example of what Femme should be, as a matter of fact it's dismissed, nose wrinkled at and pushed aside for a more softer version of Femme.

Women who are empowered are spoken to different, treated different, objectified differently, and put into a less than hole than the softer version.


It's engrained sexism, that we as Femmes are engrained with. I could be wrong though, I don't think so though.

[*Anya*]

The best part of the 50's were the pin-ups.

Yes! Yes! I totally agree!

I loved how voluptuous they were! Yum:)

[The_Lady_Snow]

7. Do you even care who she is or what she seems to stand for?



I know who she is, and sometimes what she supposedly stands for makes me tilt my head and wonder WTF.

It's not because I scoff at the chosen dynamics and desires of others, it's because when she is placed in a Femme identity I am like wait! She's not, she was a straight woman, not queer so for me in regards to my gender the comparison does not compute and it makes me twitch. The epitomy is perpetuated that a white woman is more valuable and that too makes me a lil uneasy. It's hard, it's hard to admit an almost twinge of insecurity that surges through me.







8. How does this affect you as a Femme of Color?



It pisses me off, it makes me want to cry and it makes me sometimes wish I wasn't who I am. It's a struggle and it's an inner fight with myself of when to speak up and share my thoughts about it or just keep my mouth shut and share them with people who are willing to have those kinds of conversations, to examine and deconstruct what the issues and ism's that are so deeply embedded in what defines a "good Femme".

Latinas are starved for role models, wide hips, large nalgas, a strong dominant side swirled into Feminine markers.

Carmen San Diego is a good Latina role model, yet she's not continually used as a Latina model. Ugly Betty was someone who we could look up to but yet at the same time she was called "Ugly" and with time her body image and things changed to fit a "better" look.

Rosario Dawson, you would think her being so deeply involved in Vote Latino that you would see images of her continuously flashed before our eyes or that Femme be risen up to that imagery of what can be and is.

So I struggle some days more than others. I'd like it more and yes this is me wishing out loud that instead of comparing Femme to June a straight woman that for once someone would rise Femme to (insert someone else a woman of color at least) so that I could at least get it that way.

It's a struggle to put what I am thinking into words so but I promise I am trying and thinking really hard before I post.

[Martina]

OMGAY!

I so wanted to go there, but I was attempting to be a tiny bit conservative. HA!!! I love it.

Seriously, she could be a sports dyke.

http://iampurty.com/purtyblog/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Barbara_Billingsley_as_June_Cleaver.jpg

[The_Lady_Snow]

Seriously, she could be a sports dyke.

http://iampurty.com/purtyblog/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Barbara_Billingsley_as_June_Cleaver.jpg



She reminds me of the church ladies at Sacred Heart. I think it's the pearls, damn those pearls!!

[aishah]

i am so very happy to have missed the part where somebody brought up june cleaver as a role model. (although i guess in the old-fashioned thread and other threads that might have been an undertone in the conversation.) cause that gets me about fifty different kinds of pissed.

to me, there is no way she is a femme role model because she is straight and she is the paragon of heteronormativity. to me, being femme is largely about interpreting femininity in ways that are queer and subversive. being femme, for me, is about resisting colonialism and sexism. i don't see june cleaver as queer or subversive...i see the whole 1950s housewife thing as straight up sexist and colonialist. although i know some people who claim nowadays that they identify very strongly with the 1950s housewife thing because they find it subversive...i sure as hell don't.

i'm indigenous and poor and i was raised by a family full of single mothers. nobody wore heels or aprons. i don't think my mom ever baked a batch of cookies in her life. the idea that somebody like june cleaver is supposed to be a role model to me is really offensive and fucking disgusting, to be honest with you.

i love taking care of people and sometimes service as a form of play can be hot, though not necessarily in a heteronormative/1950s context.

my femme role models are mostly other queer/trans* disabled femmes of color and indigenous femmes. and working & hustling class femmes.

[Martina]

to me, being femme is largely about interpreting femininity in ways that are queer and subversive.

It is not to me. My femininity is really very like my mother's. I actually do feel that it connects me to straight women in many ways, and I celebrate that. I actually think it's dangerous to repudiate that. But that's another thread. (I actually wrote a paper on this, which I presented to a bored crowd at the first femme conference. It's a pet peeve of mine.)

[aishah]

It is not to me. My femininity is really very like my mother's. I actually do feel that it connects me to straight women in many ways, and I celebrate that. I actually think it's dangerous to repudiate that. But that's another thread. (I actually wrote a paper on this, which I presented to a bored crowd at the first femme conference. It's a pet peeve of mine.)

i'd be interested to hear more of your thoughts on that. i definitely don't ever see my views on this changing but i'm curious to know how others understand femme for themselves.

i don't think any one view of femme should be or is universal, but for me at least, june cleaver as a paragon of what it means to be femme is absolutely fucked up. and really soul crushing. i'm glad some people see it differently...femme can hold so many different meanings for different people. but for me, to embrace june cleaver as a role model would be dangerous. not the other way around.

(i guess in many ways my femininity is like my mother's, too, but my mother was the antithesis of june cleaver, LOL.)

[kittygrrl]

June Cleaver?..funny I grew wishing my mom could be..she was the only mom on our block divorced & working..a distinction which upset my world in so many ways..June, was a tv ideal and fun to watch as a kid and forget childhood woes and when i had my babies I have to admit I would ask myself from time to time "What would June Cleaver do?" It brought back memories of home, having grown up, I realized it was more perfect then I gave it credit for back then..I don't believe there is anything too wrong with having an ideal especially if you're not sure what it is you want..it's a good place to start, but that's all..at some point we grow up and realize we can shape our destiny, we can imagine & be whoever we want to be..then it's all about energy (given time)..(imo)

[Ms. Meander]

When I think of June Cleaver in this context, I think only of what has become the iconic image. Mostly her appearance/style, and then the “Martha Stewart” qualities that others have mentioned. I’ve never thought of her as a Femme role model or ideal. It’s all about personal preference, choice, and point of view.

When I was coming up and out, it was sort of at the tail-end of lesbian feminism’s androgyny days - the time when rejecting all traditional gender roles and hetero-normative expectations was required or one risked ridicule and alienation. But there was that butch-femme pulse underneath all along and I picked up on it right away. I felt at home with it – I felt subversive.

To me June Cleaver represents subversion. Because I took their straight-laced, heterosexual icon and turned her into a deviant. At least when I am channeling her, she is deviant. It’s a sort-of reclaiming of femininity and certain other qualities but then using them as I wish – NOT how they are prescribed or forced upon me nonconsensually.

I can cook a great meal and keep a nice home, and look fabulous doing it. Because I want to. Until I don’t want to – then June gets put away. Maybe I’ll pull out her apron and heels later for fun – I’m sure Ward and June never dreamed of some of the things that will happen next. Subversive, I tell you.

[Martina]

The wife I wanted to be was Nora Charles from The Thin Man series. I think I wrote about this before on another thread. Maybe on the other site. Anyway, she is beautiful. They are in love. And she is dignified and lady like, but they party constantly and she is a total smart-ass. It was unheard of for those things to come together. Well, not unheard of. Of course, that was the thirties and forties, better times for depictions of women in film.

But I loved the fact that she was rich and her husband wasn't. Although there was a class difference, which they played with, she was never a snob. They occasionally -- well, often -- made fun of her attempts to solve crimes, but her guesses often lead her husband to the real killer.

What I liked about Nora was that she was grown up and married, but she was still having FUN. You never saw women like that. She was surrounded by chaos, dressed in silk and fur, drinking and laughing and happily in love. I was like, "That's the way to do it." Much later, I learned that the character was based on Lillian Hellman.

http://imagecache6.allposters.com/LRG/37/3703/EI2AF00Z.jpg http://www.fempop.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/The-Thin-Man.jpeg

[Martina]

Yeah, my mother, not June Cleaver. What I was disagreeing with -- for me -- was femme as by definition subversive, femme as performing femininity free from sexism and oppression (would that were true). That shit gets way old.

i'd be interested to hear more of your thoughts on that. i definitely don't ever see my views on this changing but i'm curious to know how others understand femme for themselves.

i don't think any one view of femme should be or is universal, but for me at least, june cleaver as a paragon of what it means to be femme is absolutely fucked up. and really soul crushing. i'm glad some people see it differently...femme can hold so many different meanings for different people. but for me, to embrace june cleaver as a role model would be dangerous. not the other way around.

(i guess in many ways my femininity is like my mother's, too, but my mother was the antithesis of june cleaver, LOL.)

[aishah]

Yeah, my mother, not June Cleaver. What I was disagreeing with -- for me -- was femme as by definition subversive, femme as performing femininity free from sexism and oppression (would that were true). That shit gets way old.

okay, i'm trying to wrap my head around that. i don't think it's possible to perform femininity (or anything) free from sexism and oppression. i also don't necessarily see being femme as a performance but as an identity. but as someone who has experienced being shamed a LOT for being femme, among other things, to celebrate queer femininity as a form of resistance is empowering - to me, anyway.

in another thread (i don't remember which), there was a discussion of butch as a form of queer masculinity (specifically as butch being -queer- masculinity). in a world where sexism, transmisogyny, and heteronormativity are what is celebrated and what we are measured against as human beings, personally, i'm not interested in celebrating or embodying more of the same.

i'm even more disgusted by june cleaver as an icon in particular because she is white and middle/upper class, and honestly, as a poor indigenous woman, it gets REALLY fucking old to be compared or measured against some sort of white middle/upper class feminine ideal. i mean, it makes me REALLY sick. because that shit has been going on forever and it is disgusting and it is everywhere and it is pushed on me all the time. fuck that.

edited to add: i would rather celebrate leah lakshmi piepzna-samarasinha, aurora levins morales, audre lorde, june jordan, frida kahlo, minnie bruce pratt, chrystos, or any number of other femmes who have lives and experiences that in some way resemble my own, and who are doing really amazing shit for themselves and their communities. not a woman who i've always been told i (and women like me) should kill ourselves to be like and who i could never possibly measure up to even if i really wanted to.

[Martina]

I get that. But I don't want to define myself as femme in OPPOSITION to straight women or feminine lesbians. I don't want to lose my solidarity with them. I also think some of them are doing incredible things to create a space where femininity is powerful. I want to acknowledge that we are in this together. I am not better or substantially different because I am queer.

Also it's perfectly fine -- imo -- to wear your femininity in a comfortable way, in a non-transgressive, this is how my mother did it, way. That's good too. My femmeness is not any more transgressive than many straight women's. I learn a lot from them. I am in it with them. That's how I feel.

I do not think queer femmes say this as much as they used to, but it used to be in every statement of we are fabulous femmes, this is who we are. Not so much anymore, thank heavens.

[girl_dee]

Good Gods i love this thread.

i've only read the first few posts and want to thank everyone for posting.

i just realized that when i was a kid, watching that show, was such a fantasy for me, and an escape.

i don't want to sound like i am complaining about my childhood but my family was the complete opposite of all of those shows, the Brady Bunch, Leave it to Beaver, Ozzie and Harriet, Family Affair, whatever was on i watched it if there was a family involved. i loved and hated all of the characters.

My parents were alcoholics and all that came with it. My parents were angry and the violence in our home was a daily thing. In these shows the parents nurtured, were respectful and didn't scream at each other or beat the kids to the point where they couldn't go to school. Ward didn't come home drunk from the bar and verbally and physically abuse the entire family. Ohhh what an episode that would have made! The kids on TV had friends over, and nice lunches made for them, family dinners. We were lucky if there was a potato for all of us at the table at dinner. Just once i wished my mom would talk to me like June did, soft and caring, not angry and spiteful. Dinner time at my house was so stressful i couldn't eat and was a very thin, sickly kid. Our hood was nothing like where the Cleaver's lived. i armed myself at a young age to get to school, and while at school.

For me that was the attraction as a kid, a way to escape. At the time i was not thinking of oppression, suppression, privilege, classism, sexism etc. but then again i was just a little kid. My world consisted of walking on eggshells and staying out of the way.

i haven't decided what the attraction for me as an adult is, but i sure love sporting an apron, being a homemaker and not an angry pissed off drinking and two fisted smoking one.

Maybe i shared too much, if so i am sorry!

[Martina]

I loved your post, Dee. Didn't quote it all cause that annoys me, but wanted to cheerlead outside of the thanking feature.

[aishah]

celebrating being a queer indigenous poor disabled femme does not mean i am saying i am better than or i am defining myself in opposition to.

but it is inherently an act of resistance because i live in a society where being white, upper class, straight, able-bodied, and conforming to heteronormative gender roles is what is celebrated and what i am measured against as a human being and told i should want to live up to.

so it might get tiring to hear that i think that femmes who don't conform to those ideals are fucking amazing. but i'm going to keep saying it because the reality is - we are constantly told we are unlovable and less than and not worthy. there are enough people in the world who celebrate june cleaver. somebody needs to celebrate us.

[girl_dee]

I loved your post, Dee. Didn't quote it all cause that annoys me, but wanted to cheerlead outside of the thanking feature.

Thanks, and i've enjoyed yours. Very thought provoking!

[Martina]

I don't disagree with any of that. I am really making a different point, one I am not even that invested in making right now.

celebrating being a queer indigenous poor disabled femme does not mean i am saying i am better than or i am defining myself in opposition to.

but it is inherently an act of resistance because i live in a society where being white, upper class, straight, able-bodied, and conforming to heteronormative gender roles is what is celebrated and what i am measured against as a human being and told i should want to live up to.

so it might get tiring to hear that i think that femmes who don't conform to those ideals are fucking amazing. but i'm going to keep saying it because the reality is - we are constantly told we are unlovable and less than and not worthy. there are enough people in the world who celebrate june cleaver. somebody needs to celebrate us.

[JustJo]

I, too, am loving this conversation....loving that femmes of all kinds of perspectives are coming in here and speaking from their hearts and minds. Beautiful. :rrose:

I also love that there's enough room for all of us. I, personally, can't relate to the issues and feelings that femmes of color have shared because I haven't walked in those shoes, but I can relate to hearing over and over the "not good enough" message though - in my case because I was overweight, extremely poor, and dressing out of the Goodwill box in Southern California in the 70s....while all the other girls were rocking their Farrah Fawcett hairdos and getting a brand-new Camaro from Daddy on their 16th birthday.

I so hear you dee about the escapism of those shows. I used to go to a friend's house and watch The Brady Bunch like it was some kind of divine message. My fantasy was to have a mother that really was one, a father that was present (for a start), dinner on the table, and siblings that I didn't have to barricade myself in the bathroom from to escape serious injury.

My version of motherhood grew, not out of a good example, but a long list of "remember when you are older to never be like this" mental notes. In large part, the adult I am was shaped by the damage I received. No, I'm not saying that I'm "walking wounded"....but I spent many years learning to flip everything I had learned on its head to arrive at the right place for me.

So....long way around, sorry...the woman I have become, the femme I have become...is a distillation of my experiences, my thoughts, my heart, my hurts, and my emotional scars. I'm not doing it this way because anyone told me I should. I'm doing it this way because this is who I am....at the core.

And I love that we have as many versions of femme on this site as we have femmes. For me, that's a wonderful thing.

[The_Lady_Snow]

celebrating being a queer indigenous poor disabled femme does not mean i am saying i am better than or i am defining myself in opposition to.

but it is inherently an act of resistance because i live in a society where being white, upper class, straight, able-bodied, and conforming to heteronormative gender roles is what is celebrated and what i am measured against as a human being and told i should want to live up to.

so it might get tiring to hear that i think that femmes who don't conform to those ideals are fucking amazing. but i'm going to keep saying it because the reality is - we are constantly told we are unlovable and less than and not worthy. there are enough people in the world who celebrate june cleaver. somebody needs to celebrate us.



Thank you for stating that so well!! Celebrate Femme, please do not compare us some fantasy made up by men of what Femme is.


Celebrate us! All of us!

[aishah]

i can definitely relate to the escapism in childhood. i absolutely hated being - well - everything that i am when i was a kid. i wanted to grow up and be june cleaver. i went to a catholic school where about 98% of the student population was white and upper class and the parents lived in the rich section of town and a lot of the moms were like june cleaver. i used to fantasize about having a totally different life. i was ashamed of my family and the house we lived in. i was ashamed that my mom worked a lot and didn't wear heels or makeup and that most of my family members were/are fat, dark skinned, poor, and disabled.

in some ways, fantasizing helped me escape and was a coping mechanism for dealing with trauma and poverty. in other ways, it was a really negative thing because being ashamed of who i was and who my family was led to a lot of internalized oppression and self-loathing (and an eating disorder that wrecked my body, among other things). and eventually i grew up and i realized that even if i really wanted that ideal, it would be impossible for me to achieve. i realized that that ideal was fed to me for really specific (and oppressive) reasons.

now i am proud of the things i used to be ashamed of. and i am ashamed that when i was a kid i used to wish my mom was june cleaver. because my mom was a strong, brilliant, amazing woman. she was far from perfect and i have hella family issues and childhood trauma and shit. but now i am sad that i felt that way as a kid and i wish i had realized and valued myself and the women in my family and the community that i come from sooner.

[Ginger]

June Cleaver is a symbol of approved feminine expression within the dominant culture of mid-20th century North America. I think she was also a conduit for consumerism, as she was all about using household products that represented progress at that time, and technological advancement. Wrapped in all that responsibility, though, she has her ways of being independent, of seeing through bullshit, of being the voice of reason in her family.

I met Barbara Billingsley on a cruise when I was an advertising copywriter in L.A. a long time ago (the cruise line was my client). She hugged me as soon as we were introduced. I think she was so used to being hugged by women, she just went there automatically. She assumes she is beloved. And I think she is beloved, and her authority is admired by women because they intuit how she, her character, balances out the dehumanizing sexism of the time.

I mean, listen to that voice. When you hear her in person, it's even more gravelly and deep and oddly melodic.

[The_Lady_Snow]

i can definitely relate to the escapism in childhood. i absolutely hated being - well - everything that i am when i was a kid. i wanted to grow up and be june cleaver. i went to a catholic school where about 98% of the student population was white and upper class and the parents lived in the rich section of town and a lot of the moms were like june cleaver. i used to fantasize about having a totally different life. i was ashamed of my family and the house we lived in. i was ashamed that my mom worked a lot and didn't wear heels or makeup and that most of my family members were/are fat, dark skinned, poor, and disabled.

in some ways, fantasizing helped me escape and was a coping mechanism for dealing with trauma and poverty. in other ways, it was a really negative thing because being ashamed of who i was and who my family was led to a lot of internalized oppression and self-loathing (and an eating disorder that wrecked my body, among other things). and eventually i grew up and i realized that even if i really wanted that ideal, it would be impossible for me to achieve. i realized that that ideal was fed to me for really specific (and oppressive) reasons.

now i am proud of the things i used to be ashamed of. and i am ashamed that when i was a kid i used to wish my mom was june cleaver. because my mom was a strong, brilliant, amazing woman. she was far from perfect and i have hella family issues and childhood trauma and shit. but now i am sad that i felt that way as a kid and i wish i had realized and valued myself and the women in my family and the community that i come from sooner.


My mother and I have a cultural clash, it's of EPIC proportions, she's a very conservative catholic latina woman, ruler of her roost to the point of being cruel. We didn't watch a lot of TV my mother monitored the shit out of that, I had to "sneak" watching it. I was well into my teens when I learned about the Cleavers and other shows like that.

My mother who was an immigrant and hid a lot during our childhood (we were undocumented till I was in 5th grade) spent more time policing and making sure her kids had the values (her words) that were part of our culture. It was maddening to me as a child to understand why this woman was so fucking stuck on stuff that seemed so Mexican.

We were so fucking Mexican I would sometimes be ashamed of my lunches because they were different, I hadn't experienced this when I was younger because my parents sent me to school in a predominantly Latino Catholic school so I was surrounded by kids going through similar family structures.

I didn't want my Ma to be like a TV mom, but I did want her to be not so Mexican, she would be so hurt when I would say this, it was a struggle for us both being she was from Mexico and I was too but I was being raised as a Chicana would.

I sometimes hug my mom tightly and apologize for being so harsh with my words as a teen age punk, and I understand now that our battles were cultural, about unspoken abuse in immigrant families, educational. I know and hear stuff that my mother has endured, as a woman, as a Mexican and I am like fuck, what a brat I was and at the same time wish I could of helped her find help sooner to help her cope with so much that it couldn't but bleed into our upbringing...

The women in my family are amazing, yet so so different than the women who were and are raised in an American society.

[Martina]

The Lady Snow encouraged me to post part of the femme paper I referred to. I can't find the Bibliography. This was something I read aloud, so I didn't worry about formatting, spelling and so on. So this is the whole thing. To do excerpts, I'd have to think. And I am opposed to thinking on Friday evenings. I thought I excerpted parts on the old site, but a search did not bring up the post. Oh well.

OH, this is from 2006. The articles I cite are even older. Things have changed. Heart pointed out that one of the keynote speakers at a later femmecon made a lot of these points -- that we cannot define femme in opposition to other feminine people, that there are real dangers to doing that. So the arguments here are dated.

I am not being falsely modest when I say that I do not encourage anyone to slog through it. Personally, I'd rather be watching "Gangnam Style" on youtube. But here it is. I will probably have to post twice to get it all in.

Many people writing or creating art on the subject of femmes and femme identity are aware of the pitfalls of presenting femme as a cohesive collective identity. At the very least, they are conscious of the risks of exclusion. In their wonderful essay, “A Fem(me)inist Manifesto,” Lisa Duggan and Kathleen McHugh write, “It diminishes a femme, all femmes, to talk about a femme identity in itself. How could that be? Femme is neither an ideal nor a category.” (p.165) There is an awareness that a collective identity that is normative, rather than descriptive, one that might be felt to have prescriptive force, does not serve us well. This awareness is fairly widespread, i think.

Creating numbers of identities within femme to accommodate our diversity is not effective either. Judith Butler claims this “only produces a greater factionalization, a proliferation of differences without any means of negotiating among them.” Clearly there is the risk of creating hierarchies and of establishing categories which compete. It’s also an additional opportunity to police others’ or one’s own identity. Many femmes i know refuse an identification more specific than "femme" out of fear of inadvertently excluding or creating such hierarchies. They may be high femme in practice, but not in name.

However, many seem to find constructing femme identity through disavowing identification with straight women and with feminine lesbians less problematic. In her essay “How Does She Look?” Rebecca Ann Rugg writes, “the problem for the femme dyke who is not assimilationist is not only distinguishing herself from straight women, but from those femmes who consider straight-acting a compliment.”

Judith Butler acknowledges that identities are created through a series of disavowals and repudiations. She explains that “certain disavowals are fundamentally enabling and that no subject can proceed, can act, without disavowing certain possibilities and avowing others.” (p. 116) Identities do not have to be cohesive, logical, or water-tight. They should not be. But they do have to mean something. Excluding possibilities creates meaning. Moreover, gender identity is not an optional project. We cannot become desiring subjects in the world without constructing gender identities for ourselves, even if multiple and fluid.

However, as some femme writers do it, distinguishing ourselves from straight women has meant more than asserting our existence. It has included the ongoing project of rehabilitating femininity from its association with powerlessness and loss. A great project, but as we have carried it out, one that has characterized straight women in terms of that powerlessness and loss. Distinguishing ourselves from feminine lesbians has provided femme writers the opportunity to protest femme invisibility and politicize our identity, also laudable projects, but, in characterizing feminine lesbians as women who do not problematize their femininity or who welcome passing, we ignore their contributions and struggles.

From the amazing “Femme Manifesto” again: “Refusing the fate of girl-by-nature, the femme is girl-by-choice. Finding in androgyny . . . too much loss, too little pleasure, and ugly shoes, the femme takes from the feminine a wardrobe, a walk, a wink, then moves on to sound the death knell of an abject sexuality.” She continues, femmes “are never heterosexual. Though they may traffic in men, they do not, cannot, will not take up a position within a heteronormative framework. Those femmes who desire masculinity in a partner prefer queer masculinities occupied with irony and ambiguity. The heteronormative man is inadequate in this department. The phallus he has seems not to be detachable.” (p.167)

From a frequent contributor to butch-femme.com: “But for many of us out here in cyber land, our entire lives are formed and created and lived WITHOUT A SINGLE DESIRE or attempt to be heteronormative, heteroqueer, het in any way, without the need to 'pass.' . . . What I'm saying is this: the desire to 'normalize' one's queerness, the desire to pass as het-anything, when one is -- by definition -- NOT het, is horrifying to me. And I don't share it in any way. I'd appreciate not having that forced on my very NON-normative body, sexuality, and desire.”

In response to these disavowals, i quote Butler again. She states that the refusal to identify with a position “suggests that on some level an identification has already taken place.” She adds that "heteronormativity remains a spectre in our identities if we cannot acknowledge our connection to heterosexuality." Assertions that the very fact of our queerness makes us different do not keep us safe. Wouldn't it be wonderful it it were that easy? Such assertions, in fact, make us less safe. For example, they make the fact that sexism still plays a role in butch-femme culture more difficult to recognize.

Characterizing queered femininity as reclaimed or rehabilitated by virtue of being queered might also suggest that escaping internalized misogyny is easy for those privileged with our gender identity. There may be a lot of proud fat femmes out there and many whose sexual agency inspires awe, but we are not alone in our struggles to love our bodies and sexuality, and those struggles do not begin or end with our queer ID's. To understand femme as somehow unique, or even as leading the way, isolates us from other feminine beings whose efforts to free their bodies and spirits are as authentic, creative, and powerful as our own.

Butler talks about intense disavowals as cruelties that we visit upon ourselves. Straight women and feminine lesbians are not made abject by their exclusion from our identity. We do not have that power. Their identities and ability to speak remain untouched. An unintended and often devastating effect of these assertions, these efforts to stake out a unique and unassailable territory, is to exclude other femmes who can not or will not repudiate their heterosexual pasts or their commonality with their heterosexual women friends and family members. These statements differentiate between femmes and feminine lesbians in ways that disparage the latter, creating in those who identify as both femme and lesbian an unnecessary conflict. Finally, in order to exaggerate difference, our femininity is often constructed as transgressive and performative in ways that many femmes do not experience.

The most prominent metaphor in femme cultural products is femme femininity as more performed, more ironic, more exaggerated and daring than straight or lesbian femininities. Femme as parody, even as burlesque. It’s a powerful metaphor that resonates strongly for many femmes. It continues the project of reclaiming femininity as powerful and allows for an inclusive understanding of femme since it points out the constructedness of gender. Unfortunately, it is also used extensively as a means of distinguishing femmes from straight women and feminine lesbians, whose femininities are understood as less ironic and transgressive.

There is an expression of this metaphor in “A Femme Manifesto," which claims that "femme is the performativity, the insincerity, the mockery, the derision of foreplay – the bet, the dare, the bringing to attention of the suitor, the one who would provide her pleasure. The performer who demands performance in return, the player who brings pleasure into play. . . . On the question of style, femme science reviles any approach to appearances that is sincere. Femme science questions the dignity and wisdom of anyone who would wear pink without irony, or a floral print without murderous or seditious designs.” One remark I have heard a few times goes something like "if you set a femme down in a baby shower, she would stand out like a sore thumb."

Even if we try to avoid creating a cohesive cultural identity for femme, some of the metaphors and narratives we use to describe ourselves gain more currency than others. My understanding of how this works comes from Richard Rorty. People who make cultural products, artists and writers, in the process of their own self-becoming generate innovative language, new metaphors, which catch on because of a “particular need which a given community happens to have at a given time. . . It’s the 'accidental coincidence of a private obsession with a public need.'”

These creators found a self which the past never knew was possible, making those possibilities available for all of us. In a given historical moment, there are always a number of people working through the same cultural ideas. In describing the relationship of the work of Victorian philosophers and writers, Rorty says, “All of the figures of this period play into each other’s hands. They feed each other lines. Their metaphors rejoice in one another’s company.” This explains the prominence some metaphors gain over others.

In constructing femme as performative and ironic, we exclude femmes whose identities are not experienced as transgressive. In "A Woman's Prerogative," Marcy Sheiner, a sometimes passing femme married to a transman, talks about relaxing into her femme identity in mid-life. A former editor of On Our Backs, she said that in her past, she “lived and breathed lesbian femininist radical sex analysis.” Like many women at mid-life, she is looking again at the life her mother lead, reconnecting to the legacy of previous generations. And she is simply relaxing. Her family does not know that her husband is trans, and she benefits, in fact, she luxuriates, in the occasional benefits of heterosexual privilege. Now that she is older and in this relationship, she reports she can better relate to a childhood friend, a straight woman. She writes, “Now that I am in a monogamous relationship with a man, we’re talking about our loves with the same kind of synergistic understanding we shared when we were fourteen.”

She sums up: “I don’t feel like I am caving in; I feel like my natural self is emerging. It is no longer so imperative to achieve fame and fortune and/or transform the world, and that’s an enormous relief. Some of this mellowing, of course, comes inevitably with age. . . . Feminine qualities were forced on me as a girl, adolescent and young woman. Because they were mandatory and restrictive, they were oppressive. Feminism was a rebellion and a way out of the oppression, but certain aspects of feminism turned into a new form of oppression. My rediscovered femme identity feels neither oppressive nor rebellious, but integral to who I am.”

[Martina]

Second page. Hope it's all there. Had to paste paragraphs separately ---

This is a woman, a femme, for whom invisibility is not a source of anxiety. She is a housewife and a writer. She passes and experiences her femininity as more and more natural, integral to herself, as she says. Sheiner makes the point that a lot of her changing understanding of herself as femme is a function of age, not just of her relationship and of heterosexual privilege. But she does benefit from that, and her experience points out that, like it our not, many of us do. What else do we gain from Sheiner’s experience and wisdom? We are reminded that a passing femme is still a femme, an invisible femme is still a femme, and that our connection to her, and hers to straight women, is useful and powerful -- in part because all of us spend some time passing, some time invisible. Including the experience of women like Steiner is not just inclusive; it is empowering. There are numbers of femmes whose sexual agency and power are not expressed or experienced by performing femininity in apparently transgressive ways. Moreover, femmes who experience their femininity as similar to their mothers and their straight women friends remind us of our connection to these women and the richness of their lives.

Katherine Payne is a femme who did not connect to other femmes until she read Joan Nestle's story of her straight mother. In her essay, “Whores and Bitches Who Sleep with Women,” Payne discusses the connection between sex workers and femmes. For her, the metaphor of femme as performative and transgressive resonates. Payne believes that there can be “no sound analysis of the cultural position of femme without a basis in an analysis of the cultural, legal, and economic position of prostitutes." She holds that “femininity and sexual agency equal potential social chaos and, therefore, those who combine these qualities must be stigmatized, criminalized, and maligned.” Speaking as a sex worker, Payne addresses femmes: “Betcha we shop in the same stores, wrestle the same demons, carry comparable fears through the world. Chances are we frequently get mistaken for each other.”

However, Payne didn’t connect strongly with her femme identity until she read Joan Nestle’s “My Mother Liked to Fuck.” In that amazing essay, Joan explains that her will to fight the sex wars arose from remembering her mother’s love of sex and unwillingness to let anyone make her ashamed of it. Payne says, “Nestle gave me a huge and priceless gift in her affiliation with and defense of her trampy working class mom. The woman Nestle described had unapologetic sexual agency, and was consequently marginalized, shamed, and economically at risk. This resonated for me. For the first time, I could imagine a place in the history of ‘lesbians’ where I might find allies and assert my priorities.” Payne’s understanding of femme is very close to the dominant metaphors of performance, parody, and excess. But what is interesting to me is that it is Nestle’s avowal of her connection to her straight mother’s complex life, Nestle's understanding of that history as available to empower her to fight for her right to fuck the way she liked, that reaches across time to Payne, who continues to make connections outside of the queer community to sex workers of all genders.

Avowing a connection to straight housewives, as Sheiner does, or straight women who risk themselves to create a place for their own sexual agency, as did Nestle and does Payne, entails a willingness to accept even the scary and heteronormative parts of our lives. It requires us to look at how sexism might operate in our own communities. It requires that we confront the potential for violence and abuse in our worlds. But it is also incredibly empowering and creative, and it acknowledges the lives of real femmes as they are actually lived.

Butler writes that “it may be only by risking the incoherence of identity that connection is possible.” However, even when we do try to avoid the creation of prescriptive identities, some metaphors will gain more power in our culture than others – for very good reasons. They do resonate. They do address current issues and concerns. They are pushing forward the goals that the group shares. But we need to always take stock of what we are defining ourselves against and what pieces of ourselves we leave behind as we do.

Butler does not argue that we should change all disavowals into avowals, that we should assert only similarities and ignore differences. Most femmes are, in fact, not straight. There are differences between femmes and feminine lesbians. Her argument is simply to note the exclusions, to know what we are doing and to trace the connections.

My personal experience is a bit like Sheiner’s. As I get older, I relax into my femininity and feel more sure of it. It feels more natural. In the last year or so, I have lost a great deal of weight. And as my face changes, the person I see in the mirror is my mother. My mother was a working mom, a school teacher. She kept her hair short and used only three items of makeup. She had no doubt about her femininity and was not doubted in it. She was also comfortable in her body. As I see her in myself more and more, and as I age, my connection to my own femininity feels stronger, less like performance and more as something indistinguishable from who I am in all respects. My performance of femme is not excessive or transgressive. If you set me down in a baby shower, I would fit right in. And that would be fine. My fear is that some femmes who come to the identity now won’t find the thing that catches their attention, that makes them feel that they are part of the lineage, as Payne did when she read Nestle’s article, or that their road to it will inspire unnecessary self doubt.

Even Rebecca Ann Rugg, whose great line in "How Does She Look?" advocates our "running in loud mouth packs," agrees that foregrounding femme identity as transgressive has its drawbacks. She fears that it might end up excluding women who are older, “relegating these ladies to some older than hip shelf.” Melanie Murtry and Kristin Tucker, in an essay called "Femme Femininiites," also consider femme’s ironic performance of gender its core identifying feature. They argue that visibility and the power to transform femininity do come from extreme performance – body modifications, a pomo style etc. They also argue for loudness and excess, for us to celebrate the sexiness of women of size and femmes who strap it on. But they also – briefly -- mention that there are femmes for whom silence is powerful.

Distinguishing ourselves from straight women and from feminine lesbians by virtue of our extreme performance of gender, by our fight against invisibility, by the transgressive potential of our expression of gender politicizes femme in the same way that some lesbians politicized that identity in the seventies, a politicization that, as we all know, excluded femme. In making the opposite of the brazen femme the domain of oppressed straight women and sell-out dykes, we create no place for femmes of different styles and gender expressions to occupy.

[princessbelle]

What a beautiful thread!!!! Reading these posts after a long day at work was exactly what i needed to remind me of how wonderful our community can actually be.

I would have to say my mom was June Cleaver to a tee.

But, i can remember at a VERY young age, it bugged me greatly. However, instead of me embracing this and wanting this because of how i was raised. I wanted the opposite. Even though it appeared we had the perfect family, i felt she was oppressed in so many ways. It drove me crazy even at a very young age.

I remember challenging her on things...

"Mom, what would happen if you didn't have Daddy's supper on the table at exactly 6"

"Mom why don't you ask Daddy to help with the laundry or shopping"

"Mom, why do you say Mrs. so and so and not introduce and sign your first and last name"

"Mom why do you let him make all the decisions"

I was always pushing her like that. She has told me many times, she saw signs of my stand on equality for women and feminism at a VERY early age.

You know, i'm not sure it is what she wanted to be honest. I couldn't imagine it would be, even back then. But, she says it is what she loved, keeping a house and home with no real life outside dad and us kids. *shrugs

I know i didn't want it. I didn't have it and i'm happy about that decision. When i was married to a bio man, i worked solid, i made him help me with things and as soon as my kids were big enough to reach dishes, laundry, they helped too.

I was no June Cleaver. Never wanted to be. Never could be. It just doesn't interest me at all. I like to cook, but i don't love it. I just get hungry LOL.

So many different ideas and thoughts and experiences and lives here.

It's really a beautiful discussion.

[aishah]

In constructing femme as performative and ironic, we exclude femmes whose identities are not experienced as transgressive.

the issue i have with this is that - people whose identities are not experienced as transgressive are visible and celebrated already. the rest of us aren't. the reason my identity is transgressive is because i am marginalized - not because i am going out of my way to "perform" femme as something transgressive. i didn't ask to live in a society where being a sex worker is transgressive, for example, but i do. and i do sex work out of economic necessity, not to be performative or ironic.

i don't know. i'm really really trying to understand, and i found what you shared to be extremely thought provoking, and for that i am grateful. but i am struggling to wrap my mind around it.

there are scary and heteronormative parts of my life. i like it when my butch opens doors for me. and i love to bake. but i bake with money i bought with food stamps and then go feed homeless people. or working class folks who come to the sliding scale acupuncture clinic where i work. or at potlucks. sort of far removed from the 1950s housewife baking scene. i covered my hair for years and dressed really conservatively...that's rather scary and heteronormative, i suppose. i embrace those parts of myself.

my issue isn't wanting to exclude people who have identities or values or things they enjoy that fall within the realm of heteronormativity. it's that - when we talk about holding people up as icons or ideals - i feel like we need to have some sort of analysis around the fact that the ideal of the 1950s housewife has been used to marginalize many women, especially working class, poor, and non-white women.

no one should be excluded. but whose voices and experiences are we choosing to center? i choose to center the voices and experiences of disabled folks, sex workers, people who are working class and poor, indigenous & poc, women and/or gender non-conforming folks, because there are so few spaces where our voices and experiences are centered. it sucks that some people feel that that means they are excluded because they don't fall within those categories - i deeply love all of the people in my life, regardless of how they identify. but many of the privileged folks in my life also have a lot of support and they can turn on the tv and see people like them and have role models that look like them and they don't have to worry about how they are going to get medical care or food or about being arrested because of working. the society i live in centers the voices and experiences of people who have privilege. so when i think about where i want my priorities to be, i prioritize and celebrate (and idolize) people in my life who are transgressive.

thank you so much for posting your paper. i'm still sorting through things and it's bringing up a lot for me (and making me think really deeply).

edited to add - i do definitely get the whole - if you aren't x then you aren't queer/femme enough issue. for me at least, especially when i went through a period of being celibate and abstaining from alcohol and dressing conservatively, i often felt awkward in queer community because i wasn't drinking or having sex or wearing provocative clothing, for example. and because i looked pretty heteronormative (as a muslim). i was lucky enough to be around queer folks (many of whom were also muslim, and who dressed differently and did all sorts of different things) where i eventually felt embraced regardless of what i wore or ate or drank or who i slept with (or didn't). and i was able to come to make decisions based on what i wanted to do versus how i was afraid people would perceive me or whether or not i would fit in. i think it's really problematic when we start saying that people HAVE to look or act a certain way to be femme. could someone be a housewife a la june cleaver and be femme? absolutely. do i think june cleaver is a femme icon? no. (at least, vehemently NOT for me.)

[Martina]

We may be talking at cross-purposes. I don't know. I think most of what you say is a given. We start from there. But we don't go on to assert an ID so unique that we lose our ability to recognize ourselves in others.

One of the interesting essays I read -- and I mentioned it -- was by a sex worker who did not claim femme until she read an article by a femme about her straight mother. Now her mother was NOT traditional. Sex positive, working class, tough. But the thing was that it was this person's ability to connect to the story of a STRAIGHT woman that helped her with her queer ID. And, of course, Nestle used her mother's experiences to help her stand up against the dykes who were criticizing her as a femme who liked to be fucked by butches. I don't want to separate myself from the examples and experiences of other feminine women.

gotta go. a pot luck awaits. how lesbian is that?

[princessbelle]

One more thing i wanna say but i don't want to interrupt the flow here and how it is going so i'm just penciling this in as a side note..

Thoughts today about how this topic keeps coming up in different places here and why, personally, i take such a heated heart (for lack of a better term) when the 50s are brought up as "all that" and how it was "so much better" yada yada..

Is IMO from MY view...has a lot to do with my mother. She did that. She was that. She WAS oppressed. She is a beautiful loving being that i am so thankful to have in my life. But. She missed out on a lot. Especially since my dad died some 14 years ago, she has opened up a lot to me about her dreams. She had dreams just like anyone else. She wanted to be a school teacher, she wanted to pursue her art, she wanted to travel. She didn't get a chance to do that.

I wonder, to myself sometimes, if she had been in my era. What she would have become. What would June Cleaver have been. What would have so many women, of all colors and ethnic background back then, been like today or what things they would have done to help and change the world. They were the most amazing women to go through that oppression and come through it. They didn't have choices. We may have had a female president by now. Who knows.

Anyway, just sharing why i get my panties twirled at times about "the good ole days". I personally feel women were cheated out on life. And besides making me mad. He makes me so terribly sad.

[JustJo]

Thank you for posting that Martina....a lot of it resonated for me. Not coincidentally, the part about Sheiner's experience of becoming more comfortable with her femininity and her femme self and less troubled by issues of invisibility and passing, as she ages.

I am so there.

I feel like I'm rounding a corner in my life where I just am who I am. I'm comfortable with it. I'm not changing to suit anyone anymore. I don't care if I am invisible as a femme. I don't care if I'm femme enough, feminine enough, tall, short, skinny, fat enough. I just don't care.

I am me. And I am comfortable with me. I'm also comfortable with everyone else being who they are. It feels good.

[girl_dee]

What a beautiful thread!!!! Reading these posts after a long day at work was exactly what i needed to remind me of how wonderful our community can actually be.

I would have to say my mom was June Cleaver to a tee.

But, i can remember at a VERY young age, it bugged me greatly. However, instead of me embracing this and wanting this because of how i was raised. I wanted the opposite. Even though it appeared we had the perfect family, i felt she was oppressed in so many ways. It drove me crazy even at a very young age.

I remember challenging her on things...

"Mom, what would happen if you didn't have Daddy's supper on the table at exactly 6"

"Mom why don't you ask Daddy to help with the laundry or shopping"

"Mom, why do you say Mrs. so and so and not introduce and sign your first and last name"

"Mom why do you let him make all the decisions"

I was always pushing her like that. She has told me many times, she saw signs of my stand on equality for women and feminism at a VERY early age.

You know, i'm not sure it is what she wanted to be honest. I couldn't imagine it would be, even back then. But, she says it is what she loved, keeping a house and home with no real life outside dad and us kids. *shrugs

I know i didn't want it. I didn't have it and i'm happy about that decision. When i was married to a bio man, i worked solid, i made him help me with things and as soon as my kids were big enough to reach dishes, laundry, they helped too.

I was no June Cleaver. Never wanted to be. Never could be. It just doesn't interest me at all. I like to cook, but i don't love it. I just get hungry LOL.

So many different ideas and thoughts and experiences and lives here.

It's really a beautiful discussion.




You know, i'm not sure it is what she wanted to be honest. I couldn't imagine it would be, even back then. But, she says it is what she loved, keeping a house and home with no real life outside dad and us kids. *shrugs

i could totally see myself being content with what i bolded out from your post. For me and some others that is having a real life. Just like you love nursing, it's a passion for you i assume. For others they feel this same passion around the kids and the home, or just the home. Until now i've never afforded that lifestyle. i work two days a week at the clinic so i can rest! Keeping up with the Syr and the house is real work! i've always found it interesting that some women work to have a life outside the home, when i've always wanted to work solely at the home. i've always wanted time to enjoy my home, make it a real home and volunteer somewhere when i wanted to venture out.

When i was in banking there was a fellow officer sitting at the lunch table with me, an older lady than the rest of us. She spoke about how she lovingly laid her husbands clothes out for him everyday before she left for work. Not because he was incapable or demanding, but because she loved choosing his clothes. Everyone but me jumped her case about it. How demeaning and terrible of a thing that was they said. She was so embarrassed and ashamed. That always has bothered me, that they were so judgmental towards her.

Then again, i've always felt like an oddball.

[girl_dee]

Belle's right about *it's all she knew*

My mom told me that in her day, during high school the girls would spend time picking out their wedding dresses. My mom is 73, so we are talking late 50's.

It was just a given that a girl graduate, get married, have kids, the end. My mother married at 18, had babies right away. She was doing the "womanly"thing. No wonder she was a mess all those years. Two failed marriages and 25 years of hell from my father. i just remember as a kid wishing my mom would save us, run away already, but she stuck by her man, until we were all gone and he nearly killed her too.

So like with Belle's mom, she had dreams but they were out of the realm of possibility. Women made the best of it, or failed at it miserably.

i've done it all regarding lifestyle and can make a choice, it was so not the same for some moms back then.

[femmsational]

I just want to say smart girls rock.


I have WAY more I wanna say but I'm too stupid right now.


I'll be back in the morning to drool over you smart girls again :-)

[julieisafemme]

I don't identify with June Cleaver as a femme. If I had to pick a TV character to identify my femmeness it would be Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I also don't like it when people lament for the old days. I like to be in the present.

I grew up in a Leave It to Beaver household. Except June smoked cigarettes all day and drank coffee and sometimes seemed depressed. My Mom is a lady. That is the best word I can think of to describe her. There are many things about her that I strive to be as a mother and a woman.

My relationship dynamic is very much like yours Femmesational. I would not describe it as 50s or June Cleaver though. I also do not see it as heteronormative although it might appear to be. That's ok with me if someone sees it that way. So Julie you asked how do we talk about this without making people upset or having a history lesson? I think referencing a time in history that is problematic might be causing the problem. So how do we define it? I don't have a good answer except to say that it is what makes me feel safe and loved.

I agree with Martina about not separating ourselves from other women as femmes. One of the most wonderful, liberating aspects of being a femme to me is is that I stand with all women, butch, femme, straight or what have you. I did not feel that way before. Maybe it is because I know myself better now? I don't know. All I know is that I am so unbelievably grateful and blessed to have these kinds of conversations with women now.

[blush]

While I think femmes intersect other female embodiments, I don't think we follow the same path. To say that a femme and a straight woman both shop at the same store, or share similar life experiences and are therefore more alike than they are different seems to be an over simplification.

I came out late. I am a vastly different person than I was when I was "straight." I don't like to pass because it is fundamentally not my truth. For me, it isn't a political statement or an invisibility issue, "passing" is a reminder of something I am not.

[Martina]

To say that a femme and a straight woman both shop at the same store, or share similar life experiences and are therefore more alike than they are different seems to be an over simplification.


That would be an oversimplification, and I don't think that's what Payne meant if you are reacting to that.

I do think that there are straight women and feminine lesbians who are thoughtful about femininity and creative in their efforts to live as healthy powerful feminine beings. That doesn't mean that they are just like femmes.

The reason that the first femme conference was organized is that some femmes went to a conference on femininity and found that their experiences WERE different than many of those they saw represented.

I also think that seeing how we have changed since we came out is different than repudiating our former selves. Haven't you met lesbians who have done that? Everything about their lives as a straight woman was a compromise, a loss, inauthentic and lesser. And maybe for some women that is true. But for some there is a strong sense of continuity of self between their straight lives and their queer lives.

Truly the points I make in that paper, assuming you are responding to that, are not directly relevant to the discussion. And I don't think they are easy to argue. I think we'll just end up saying, it depends on the femme. We're all different.

[pinkgeek]

First I'll say I don't identify with June Cleaver, never have. I don't keep house, bake cookies (except for charity events), etc. I often jokingly refer to myself as a failure of a femme because while I love my makeup, shoes, fashion and glitter I'm not June Cleaver!

I choose to spend my time on academics and work and yay for me no one expects otherwise. (In fact everyone would probably think I'd lost my mind if I wasn't knee deep in books, research and obscure medical facts) I usually hire a housekeeper and I make a mean phone call for reservations or take out. Some days I wear pearls and I rock some 50s dresses, but I have no love for the 50s or the history behind why it produced the images it did.

In my experience there are two things to be mindful of about the images/movies/TV that came out of Hollywood in the 50s and 60s and even the 70s.

First McCarthy and the House Committee on Un-American Activities played a huge part in art and culture from that era. To deviate was to be investigated and that investigation could and did ruin a lot of lives. Conversely there are some incredible queers and allies who thumbed their noses at McCarthy and survived, but that wasn't the usual outcome.

Second from Hollywood directly was the HAYS code. Women could NOT be seen to deviate from "loving their man the right way" unless the production ended with their death or suicide. An excellent example was the movie Queen Christina with Greta Garbo. For the first 3/4 of the movie we see a strong gender bending portrayal of a character and then to make sure it got past the sensors you'll see an abrupt shift to the Queen falling in love with a man and throwing it all away for him.

June Cleaver and Leave It To Beaver fall smack into both of these lovely oppressive codes. (Referred to as the HAUC & HAYS codes in our queer studies department) For Leave It To Beaver to have the run it did June had to be the way she was, same with Mary Tyler Moore, etc. I Love Lucy had more leeway, but by the end of EVERY episode she "loved" her husband.

Both of these codes also dictated how characters of color and LGBT characters were portrayed, neither in a good way. Hollywood is littered with amazing acts of defiance from that era which are really only seen on close inspection. Numerous marriages were blatant covers to protect the sexuality of many actors, directors and artists.

What anyone does in their own house, bedroom etc. with the "50s ideal" is their own thing. I won't judge cause chances are I've done or do some things that will make someone go all kinds of sideways. BUT I will say I prefer that when people make the choice to idealize anything that they are educated and understand the reality behind the glamour.

Your mileage will probably vary and pardon the typos it's 1am. :blueheels:

[easygoingfemme]

I think it's time to visit the Housekeeping Monthly Good Wife's Guide from 1955: Printed May 13, 1955

The Good Wife's Guide



Have dinner ready. Plan ahead, even the night before, to have a delicious meal ready on time for his return. This is a way of letting him know that you have be thinking about him and are concerned about his needs. Most men are hungry when they get home and the prospect of a good meal is part of the warm welcome needed.
Prepare yourself. Take 15 minutes to rest so you'll be refreshed when he arrives. Touch up your make-up, put a ribbon in your hair and be fresh-looking. He has just been with a lot of work-weary people.
Be a little gay and a little more interesting for him. His boring day may need a lift and one of your duties is to provide it.
Clear away the clutter. Make one last trip through the main part of the house just before your husband arrives. Run a dustcloth over the tables.
During the cooler months of the year you should prepare and light a fire for him to unwind by. Your husband will feel he has reached a haven of rest and order, and it will give you a lift too. After all, catering to his comfort will provide you with immense personal satisfaction.
Minimize all noise. At the time of his arrival, eliminate all noise of the washer, dryer or vacuum. Encourage the children to be quiet.
Be happy to see him.
Greet him with a warm smile and show sincerity in your desire to please him.
Listen to him. You may have a dozen important things to tell him, but the moment of his arrival is not the time. Let him talk first - remember, his topics of conversation are more important than yours.
Don't greet him with complaints and problems.
Don't complain if he's late for dinner or even if he stays out all night. Count this as minor compared to what he might have gone through at work.
Make him comfortable. Have him lean back in a comfortable chair or lie him down in the bedroom. Have a cool or warm drink ready for him.
Arrange his pillow and offer to take off his shoes. Speak in a low, soothing and pleasant voice.
Don't ask him questions about his actions or question his judgment or integrity. Remember, he is the master of the house and as such will always exercise his will with fairness and truthfulness. You have no right to question him.
A good wife always knows her place.

[girl_dee]

Hey i got #3 down pat!

[JustJo]

So, let me start by saying I have never taken a women's studies course and have zero academic background on this era....so thank you to Martina and to pinkgeek for bringing in some of that context. I appreciate it greatly.

Here's my gut reaction to that 1955 "be a stepford wife" guide....

I think men, in general, were scared. WWII saw women stepping out of their former roles in massive numbers. Women were working out of the home, and not just as teachers and nurses....we were welders and truck drivers and machinists and every other thing that had been previously perceived as "men only."

And we did it well.

Women provided immense labor towards keeping the war effort, and the nation, moving...and we did it by doing things that men (in general) thought we could not do. I imagine that scared the crap out of them, because suddenly we were showing (not just saying) that we could do everything that men could do, and that we were their equals.

I don't think it's too big of a jump to say that seeing women perform work that had been percieved as too hard, too dirty, too whatever for them, was no less frightening to men than seeing former slaves learn to read and write was to former slaveowners. The biggest backlash towards any group has always happened when they try to step out of "their place."

I think the 1950s was about backlash, and men (and many women, too) trying to stuff women back into the box they had jumped out of.

I absolutely adore images of women from this time.

http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/rosie-riveter-3.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/Gary_Plant_Tubular_Steel_Corporation.jpg/220px-Gary_Plant_Tubular_Steel_Corporation.jpg
http://stylishthought.com/wp-content/themes/Zeke10/images/2011/09/rosie_the_riveter.jpg

[easygoingfemme]

JustJo
Absolutly
I've had the thought in my mind to do research on the rate of suicide among women during that transition time when they were put back into housewife role after being in the work force. I did a little work on that when I was in college (women's studies major here) but didn't come up with much, but that was "back in the day" when there wasn't much available in online research and my work was more in letter writing, phone calls, library books. I might revisit that.

[Soon]

The Good Wife's Guide



--Let him talk first - remember, his topics of conversation are more important than yours.

--You have no right to question him.



Ugh. I can't even.

I find these examples of male privilege still so prevalent today...in the workforce, everyday interactions with some men etc.-- that arrogant (implicit or explicit) attitude of his words are FAR more important than mine, and who am I to contribute/question his authority on this subject? Just listen (to him).

In fact, I think some students (high school) don't question a male teacher's authority/knowledge half as much as they do female teachers (we have discussed this).

[femmsational]

[CENTER][SIZE=4]

June Cleaver gets brought up a lot in our community as a Femme Role Model, a Femme Achievement Heirarchy, Femme Wife Model, How Femme Should Behave.


How did society/this forum come to that conclusion? What is the attraction? Is this part of your kink? Is it edge play for you if kink is involved? Is it a power dynamic? Does it get your juices flowing? Are you wondering how this came about? Do you even care who she is or what she seems to stand for? How does this affect you as a Femme of Color?


I love how in this community we break down things and examine them throughly and listen to one another without personalizing it or having to crap on someone/someones when we do.


Let's dismantle this and talk about all of it the good the bad and the ugly but please, please when we do let's do it in an adult manner and not take jabs at one another.

Discuss.


I'm loving this thread and the honesty that is flowing through it. It's nice to see hard topics, addressed without rancor.


1: I think, society and this forum have come to that conclusion for a number of reasons. Most have already been address here but for me, it's as simple as....it's what society knew. How are people supposed to want something that is outside of their realm of normal? Which is why I thank god that there are members of society who step out of the pack and say NO!!

As for this forum....well, unfortunately I think because of MANY years of trying to claim space for people who are *different,* we've created many different types of thinking about what is right, not right, acceptable or nonacceptable for *us*

Also, I feel that because of the expectations we place on others like us, but NOT us, we've created a rift, even between each other. What I mean by that is some folks have strong feelings about what it means to be a woman and what SHOULD be expected from a woman, especially a gay/lesbian/put your word in please. Because of the fight they went through to be accepted for who they are, some may have gotten so far away from the original issue, they've allowed it to start again. Just in a different package. I have a hard time with getting those thoughts out on a good day, today it might be even harder for you to understand my meaning, if so...PLEASE ask, I'll try again.

On the flip side, some of us keep the narrow messages society has shoved down our throats, even as we try to navigate through our life in this gay woman/add your word, world. It's hard for some to seperate what has been taught to them thier entire life, just because they realize they are gay.

In that instance I think it's lack of experience? Lack of knowledge? or they just haven't opened thier mind to the many OTHER ways of navigating their world. Or, in that same instance it could just be plain ignorance, feeling like their new gay world should conform to their narrow minded views of how the world should work. Some have created a wierd....level system. You're only a real femme if.....you're only a real butch if.....and if you only do A....three times a year, you're on the bottom level of whatever id applys. Some are just plain stuck in thier superior than, mode and don't know it, or don't care enough to change it.

For me, I know i don't hold anyone of any gender up as a role model. I've had a wierd growing up and for some reason, the people in my sphere I may have admired for a reason or two but i can't say there has been one single person, real life or fantasy world that I have said.....um, i wanna be you. Or maybe I'm just stubborn and selfish and figured my way is the best way. So for me. I don't understand either side of the coin when it comes to people believing they can tell me what should happen in MY WORLD. I'm not like my Mother, I'm not like my Father, I'm not like you or you or you!! And, why the hell would I feel I have any right or it be any of my business to tell you or you or you....how YOU should be, or YOU should feel??? In my brain that make no sense. And it pisses me off when I see that happen.


I think I need to take a break and go get more coffee. I'm out :|

I have my answers to the other questions you posed Snow, so I'll be back. hehe


j

[iamkeri1]

This thread is producing some incredible thought provoking stimuli for me. Many I may respond to as time passes, but which would now take more time and words than I have available. What I like best is Lady Snow's courage (which she generally seems to have in abundance) to just say out loud (write out loud?) what is so often argued about on other threads. That "femme" is queer.

Straight women are not "femme." I would go further to say (though I know this ideas truly lights some people's fire) that a person is "femme" only if she is attracted to butches. The terms grew up together and IN MY MIND are inextricable linked. There are lots of wonderful feminine appearing lesbians, attracted to other wonderful feminine appearing lesbians. But to me they are not "femmes". For me "femme" carries a political aspect to it that disassociates it, (but does not alienate it) from straight women or feminine lesbians. Straight women do not face negativity for being attracted to men. They may be hassled over a particular guy they are attracted to, but not the attraction to men in general. Feminine women may face all kinds of negativity for being attracted to other feminine women, but they do not challenge the norms of society in the ways that a femme butch coupling does.

Outsiders may see the pairing as hetero-normative, but the couple is, in fact, merely responding to their own attractions. Within the couple, they determine their own dynamics. Femme may be an auto mechanic and Butch may have the children. Femme may be the high powered attorney and Butch may be the stay-at-home partner, meeting Femme at the door when she returns from her hectic day in the courtroom with a flute of Champagne, wearing nothing but a jockstrap. (oops, slipped into my own personal fantasy with the jockstrap image, LOL.) But they still live (and love) the butch femme dynamic. They challenge others to re-think what they have previously defined as "male" and "female." in a way that other pairings do not.

As a child I never liked the "Leave it to Beaver" show, (two stupider boys never existed, and Dad was pretty much of a whining pain in the butt.) I never liked June Cleaver, and I never thought she was particularly feminine. I did not aspire to that particular style of beauty. It was too straight-laced for me. Now that I am an adult, looking back at the fifties and early sixties, I look at Ms Cleaver, and see the public image of many butches of the day. Short smoothed back hair, tiny earings, little or no makeup and the manliest dress they could get their hands on. Dresses were required attire for any female worker outside of a factory. You had to shut up and fit in or be unemployed. Home was the freedom place ... and the gay bar. I am single since the death of my darling, and I am registered on. well, lots, of dating sites, (lesbian dating sites.) Many of the women on these sites closely resemble June Cleaver.


For those of you who found Ms Cleaver's perfection to be challenging or daunting, remember - it is much easier to be perfect when you only have to do it for 1/2 hour per week.


Keep writing, my beautiful femmes, you are so smart.

Smooches,
Keri

[Medusa]

That would be an oversimplification, and I don't think that's what Payne meant if you are reacting to that.

I do think that there are straight women and feminine lesbians who are thoughtful about femininity and creative in their efforts to live as healthy powerful feminine beings. That doesn't mean that they are just like femmes.

The reason that the first femme conference was organized is that some femmes went to a conference on femininity and found that their experiences WERE different than many of those they saw represented.

I also think that seeing how we have changed since we came out is different than repudiating our former selves. Haven't you met lesbians who have done that? Everything about their lives as a straight woman was a compromise, a loss, inauthentic and lesser. And maybe for some women that is true. But for some there is a strong sense of continuity of self between their straight lives and their queer lives.

Truly the points I make in that paper, assuming you are responding to that, are not directly relevant to the discussion. And I don't think they are easy to argue. I think we'll just end up saying, it depends on the femme. We're all different.


I wanted to bounce off on this a little.

I was at the Queering Femininity conference in Seattle when all of the hullabaloo went down and was one of the original founding members of the Femme Collective.

When we all heard about the conference,we were so excited about the possibility of convening with other Femmes. In our misunderstanding, we heard "Queering Femininity" and thought "Femme Conference". It couldn't have been further from the truth.

There were about 20 of us who were part of a larger tightly-knit circle of Femmes who made the journey. I roomed with WickedSuzi and another Femme. When we arrived, we quickly discovered that not only was the conference NOT a Femme Conference but that Femininity was basically being used as a cash cow for the organizer. (a Transman)

While he made no bones about the fact that he was there to make money, it felt gross to us on a lot of levels that the conference was #1 very expensive and #2 racist and classist as shit.

There were several women of color there who had either been part of the steering committee and had been summarily dismissed or had outright quit over concerns about racism and white privilege that were not being addressed. I watched as one woman of color put up a hand written manifesto on the wall as you entered the large conference area where our main speaker, Minnie Bruce Pratt, and watched two minutes later when a white woman, one of the organizers, came and scribbled some "Nu-uhs" on it.

I watched as one of the women of color later boarded the stage to talk to Aiden, the main organizer, and laid down on the stage and asked him to step over her to demonstrate what it felt like to be a woman of color at this conference. I watched in HORROR as he did.

I went to some of the only workshops I found palatable. Needless to say, "Stalking the Wild Butch" was not one of them. I listened as Gay men claimed "Femme". I listened as Straight women claimed "Femme". I listened as a Transman claimed "Femme".

I watched thousands of dollars change hands at the registration table and I watched as at least 2 young Femmes were denied entrance for not having enough money.

Needless to say, Poochie, Kenya, Marjorie, Eve, Heart, and many others convened on that Sunday after all of the "festivities" in the lobby of the hotel and came up with a plan to do it better and to do it without harm.

The first 2 Femme conferences that I worked on weren't perfect but I do still wholeheartedly think that the intent was good.

Point to all of this is that I think Femme is co-opted in a lot of ways. By people, by movements, and in ways that are really harmful to us.

I think Femme gets co-opted when it is compared to straight woman or when it is seen as Stepford pussy.

I think it is co-opted when it is seen as a way to make money or a way to further your "organizing" career with no real interest in making the Femme community better or more accessible.

I think Femmes have to constantly and consistently shield ourselves from that kind of shit and I think it can get really tiring.

I don't know what my point was now but I think it is something about how we have to keep demanding space that makes us feel honored.

[femmsational]

Can I ask two questions???


And please know that I mean NO disrespect, there is absolutely NO judgement, and I admire everybody for doing what they feel is authintic in their life.


1- When I saw Snow's first question. It seemed real simple to me. As evidenced by my response.

My question......how do we go from what *I* feel is a simple straight forward, the world was stupid, some people are still stupid answer, into a discussion of the feminist movement and the power players and et al.?

I know that sometimes I don't get down and dirty with things, but for me, the most simple answer is the most logical solution kinda thing?? Again, there is no judgement. I strictly want to understand the line of thinking. Cause maybe a little part of me feels I should go there too. you know? I really do. When I was in law school we had many courses in which we had to dig into the minds of others and I think I still have a hangover from that.


2- Medusa's last post help me formulate this question that has been bouncing around in my head for a while. Thanks Medusa!!

As a femme, I enjoy, love, need the bonding with other femmes. I love talking about what makes each one the femme they are. I like hearing histories and being invited into their lives and understanding what made them the femme they are today. However, I'm not understanding why we as femmes need to completley tear apart the meaning of femme, try to understand and put constraints on what *femme* is, is not, should be, could be...etc. Or Medusa are you talking more about just bonding discussions on a larger scale. Because I understand those. Obviously, I've never had the gift of being able to attend a conferance. And I sure am glad I missed that first one you described. I'm not nice.

It concerns me for a couple reasons if we are trying to label and define *femme.* But that's just me. And I really want to understand how other think about that?

Another note....I do COMPLETLEY agree that in the past, present and future, people have and will, display horrible bigotry towards people that are not *them*. The others I guess I'd call it. I believe that whatever group has been *othered* should stand up and call that bullshit out real quick and in a hurry!!! Actually, I feel that even when not in the *othered* group, if dumb shit behavior is displayed, you (general) should call it out. But I have concerns about how some of this sets up an us-vs-them sorta vibe which to *memememe* can be just as harming.

I'm not going real deep into my thinking because I really want to see what *you* think about my questions. Cause to me, that's WAY more interesting that thought i live with daily.

Or maybe this should be a different thread. Oh well, I just thought I'd through it out here and see.



j

[Julie]

I grew up in an unconventional home. My Mom and Dad were Hippies.. My Mom was raised beyond privileged and my father very poor. My mother informed him, she had to have her hair done every week and a housekeeper was expected. He complied and provided everything a princess could ask for.

First there was Mrs. Grimm (elderly) who made me say my prayers at night and gave me nightmares. Then came Georgia, an African American woman who cared for my sister and I, while my parents were busy living their life-style from the ages of 4 till about 10. In between a few others who didn't survive the household. Then came Olivia imported (pretty gross) by my parents from Mexico who still holds a place in my heart, that is deep and filled with admiration and love. She taught me how to love. She was 19 when she joined our family and when I say joined... She became part of us. My mother said, I ruined her.

I am not a caregiver in the sense of *June* - I do not cook and only eat, because I have to. I am lazy, beyond lazy when it comes to household prettiness. I do not prepare meals for my partner and honestly.. Could care less if my partner prepares meals for me - I don't care about food. I do want to be taken care of -- Honey, please take the garbage out and mow the lawn, so I don't break a nail. I am okay with this. Sometimes I just feel inept.

I have some pretty fucking dynamic Femme sisters here, and I am just in awe of them. They cook, they clean and they are oh so pretty while doing it - yet... These Femme's who I have mad respect and love for, are the most dynamic and powerful Femme's I have met, thus far. I can close my eyes and see a few in an apron, and it makes me smile. This does NOT diminish who they are as Femme's - They DO NOT live the 1950's stereotype - unless of course it is their kink!

This is a hard topic for me. It makes me angry and I feel repulsed, in part by me. I am not even a little bit June. I don't even have the ability to pretend to be June. Even if it were part of my kink - I couldn't do June. Nobody ever taught me how to be that woman - Olivia tried, but I failed. I was taught by Jimmy and Keith (they took me in as a runaway) how to do laundry. When I was in Australia, I was on the phone with Snow... Remember? DJ (Dreamer) was at work and I decided to be domestic. I was doing our laundry. Seriously.. Australia is still 1950's. I couldn't figure out how to hang the clothes on the line. I think you were impressed Snow (lol). I felt really proud and excited that finally - I could do something *Femme* like for my very very *Butch* partner. That little feeling of inept inside of me went away for just a moment... Until DJ came home and said honey - how cute you are! What an interesting way you hung my socks! Seriously baby? Seriously?

And it's not my parents who taught me to feel shame, or the straight women in my life... Sadly - It is my community who has instilled this sense of shame as a Femme, because I did not do (all that is femme and june like) for my partner. It is the Butches I have dated, that have judged me and some of the Femmes as well. And then came my strong fabulous Femme Sisters who whispered in my ear and reminded me, that who Julie is (me) is perfect the way she (me) is.

Julie

EDITED: As a side note. I was jealous of my friends who had *June Cleaver* households. I still am a little bit. I feel like I was denied a rite of passage, even though - the thought of this, repulses me.

http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo187/sheisdesign/Mom.jpg?t=1351360305

Momma pretending to be the happy housewife - My father made the bottles and bathed us!

[Martina]

However, I'm not understanding why we as femmes need to completley tear apart the meaning of femme, try to understand and put constraints on what *femme* is, is not, should be, could be...etc.

It concerns me for a couple reasons if we are trying to label and define *femme.* But that's just me. And I really want to understand how other think about that?

j

I think it's a bad idea to insist on some kind of public definition for femme although we all have our own. I think femme exists. We can attest to that. It can be named. But defining it will inevitably exclude. Iamkeri's definition is exclusionary. It would exclude me, for example. There are some amazing discussions about what it means to be African American. Finally, it comes down to being subjected to the kind of racism we in this country reserve for that group.

We can talk about what it MEANS to be femme, and I think those conversations are valuable. They include descriptions of our sexuality, our aesthetics, our politics, our humor, our experiences with invisibility, and so on. They will vary widely. That is the stuff out of which some sense of what femme means comes. And it should stay as unformed as that. IMO. As Judith Butler says, you have to risk a little incoherence for connection to be possible.

Part of allowing for incoherence means that the cooptation that Medusa decries is even easier. I don't favor policing our boundaries. People will coopt femme. That stuff happens, and policing it is pointless. If you start policing such things, you will end up policing one another too -- and excluding.

In a way, this discussion is very uncomfortable. I have no stake in arguing with Iamkeri. I have read her posts and respected them for a long time. I respect how she lives her life. But she just told me I am not femme. I had an emotional reaction to that even though I grant her definition no authority over me. I think these conversations are valuable, but they are not without risk. I think, femmsational, you are acknowledging that in your expression of concern.

But they are also valuable. That thread about femmes fucking femmes was very helpful to me. MY personal perception lately has been that the way femme is here has been narrowing a bit. I am so not going to take that on. If my feelings about that had remained unchanged, I imagine my partipation would have waned. That thread gave me a real lift, opened things up for me. I appreciated it.

[julieisafemme]

Hi Julie! I am glad you got your coffee. I have my tea.

If I can paraphrase your two questions:

How do we go from the 50s sucked to a larger discussion of feminism?

Why do we have to break down femme?

I hope I have those right.

I think that taking any conversation to a bigger picture place is always helpful and, to me, fun. There are many times that I don't understand what people are talking about and am limited, especially in writing, from grasping the point. Sometimes I might figure it out months later! Heh! So I think that there can always be meaning beyond what seems to be a simple discussion. The fun part is that meaning might be vastly different for different people.

As far as why break down femme? For me as a latecomer to femme this ongoing discussion has been enormously helpful. I love hearing how other people experience femme. I do not always agree. It does not matter though because I have learned I can still be femme even if I don't agree with how others do it! That was a big deal to me.

Can I ask two questions???


And please know that I mean NO disrespect, there is absolutely NO judgement, and I admire everybody for doing what they feel is authintic in their life.


1- When I saw Snow's first question. It seemed real simple to me. As evidenced by my response.

My question......how do we go from what *I* feel is a simple straight forward, the world was stupid, some people are still stupid answer, into a discussion of the feminist movement and the power players and et al.?

I know that sometimes I don't get down and dirty with things, but for me, the most simple answer is the most logical solution kinda thing?? Again, there is no judgement. I strictly want to understand the line of thinking. Cause maybe a little part of me feels I should go there too. you know? I really do. When I was in law school we had many courses in which we had to dig into the minds of others and I think I still have a hangover from that.


2- Medusa's last post help me formulate this question that has been bouncing around in my head for a while. Thanks Medusa!!

As a femme, I enjoy, love, need the bonding with other femmes. I love talking about what makes each one the femme they are. I like hearing histories and being invited into their lives and understanding what made them the femme they are today. However, I'm not understanding why we as femmes need to completley tear apart the meaning of femme, try to understand and put constraints on what *femme* is, is not, should be, could be...etc. Or Medusa are you talking more about just bonding discussions on a larger scale. Because I understand those. Obviously, I've never had the gift of being able to attend a conferance. And I sure am glad I missed that first one you described. I'm not nice.

It concerns me for a couple reasons if we are trying to label and define *femme.* But that's just me. And I really want to understand how other think about that?

Another note....I do COMPLETLEY agree that in the past, present and future, people have and will, display horrible bigotry towards people that are not *them*. The others I guess I'd call it. I believe that whatever group has been *othered* should stand up and call that bullshit out real quick and in a hurry!!! Actually, I feel that even when not in the *othered* group, if dumb shit behavior is displayed, you (general) should call it out. But I have concerns about how some of this sets up an us-vs-them sorta vibe which to *memememe* can be just as harming.

I'm not going real deep into my thinking because I really want to see what *you* think about my questions. Cause to me, that's WAY more interesting that thought i live with daily.

Or maybe this should be a different thread. Oh well, I just thought I'd through it out here and see.



j

[Medusa]

I think that teasing apart Femme was part of my coming out process but that teasing apart Femme can help us get down to bone of who we are even as we're more settled.
Like, I've been out and identified as Femme for about 15 years.
My Femme looks very different today than it did 15 years ago partly because I've been exposed to other Femmes and partly because I've figured out that the "glittery babygirl" thing didn't *have* to apply to me.

I don't want to put constraints on what Femme is. I want everyone who identifies as Femme to be exactly the Femme they are without all the bullshit from outside.

What I find in my personal life is that I *do* fence Femme. I do dismantle and reclaim Femme in ways that feel empowering to me.
Part of the act of fencing might come across as un-fencing if that makes any sense. I fence (protect it) by reminding the younger Femmes in my life that they don't need to wear certain things, be certain things, they can just be who they are. I protect Femme by turning shit like "Femme needs Butch to exist" away at the door. I protect it by speaking up when I see Femme being used as "dating pool" instead of honored individually.

I also do not always agree...or maybe the better word for me would be 'identify'...with how other people claim Femme. Like, I see Femme as a Queer identity. It's hard for me to see Straight folks partnered with other Straight folks claiming Femme and even harder to try to identify with it. Doesn't mean I try to tell them they can't claim it, just means I don't resonate with them like I do Queer Femmes.
And that's where I remind myself that I don't get to or have to police that.

Redefining Femme, teasing it apart, reclaiming it, etc. can come with a price if we aren't super careful. I've seen conversations about celebrating Femme actually narrow the definition of what Femme is and I don't want that. I want my sisters, and even those who aren't sister but who exist in the same space, to feel honored in whatever form they take. I'd like to look up one day and see that Femme is so expanded and stretched that old femmes, fat femmes, differently-abeld Femmes, Femmes who fuck genders other than Butch, Femmes of Color, Femmes who don't have conventional beauty privilege, and Femmes who feel 'othered' don't have to keep having conversations and convincing people that they are Femme without the caveat. I don't know a way to say that any better right now but it's something akin to exploding our conception of "normal".

[femmsational]

Thank you all for being willing to answer my clumsy questions.

I love all the different thinking processes I'm seeing.

I'm sorry Snow if you feel I've hijacked your thread. Let me know and I'll try to start a different one!!


j

[The_Lady_Snow]

This thread is producing some incredible thought provoking stimuli for me. Many I may respond to as time passes, but which would now take more time and words than I have available. What I like best is Lady Snow's courage (which she generally seems to have in abundance) to just say out loud (write out loud?) what is so often argued about on other threads. That "femme" is queer.

Straight women are not "femme." I would go further to say (though I know this ideas truly lights some people's fire) that a person is "femme" only if she is attracted to butches. The terms grew up together and IN MY MIND are inextricable linked. There are lots of wonderful feminine appearing lesbians, attracted to other wonderful feminine appearing lesbians. But to me they are not "femmes". For me "femme" carries a political aspect to it that disassociates it, (but does not alienate it) from straight women or feminine lesbians. Straight women do not face negativity for being attracted to men. They may be hassled over a particular guy they are attracted to, but not the attraction to men in general. Feminine women may face all kinds of negativity for being attracted to other feminine women, but they do not challenge the norms of society in the ways that a femme butch coupling does.

Outsiders may see the pairing as hetero-normative, but the couple is, in fact, merely responding to their own attractions. Within the couple, they determine their own dynamics. Femme may be an auto mechanic and Butch may have the children. Femme may be the high powered attorney and Butch may be the stay-at-home partner, meeting Femme at the door when she returns from her hectic day in the courtroom with a flute of Champagne, wearing nothing but a jockstrap. (oops, slipped into my own personal fantasy with the jockstrap image, LOL.) But they still live (and love) the butch femme dynamic. They challenge others to re-think what they have previously defined as "male" and "female." in a way that other pairings do not.

As a child I never liked the "Leave it to Beaver" show, (two stupider boys never existed, and Dad was pretty much of a whining pain in the butt.) I never liked June Cleaver, and I never thought she was particularly feminine. I did not aspire to that particular style of beauty. It was too straight-laced for me. Now that I am an adult, looking back at the fifties and early sixties, I look at Ms Cleaver, and see the public image of many butches of the day. Short smoothed back hair, tiny earings, little or no makeup and the manliest dress they could get their hands on. Dresses were required attire for any female worker outside of a factory. You had to shut up and fit in or be unemployed. Home was the freedom place ... and the gay bar. I am single since the death of my darling, and I am registered on. well, lots, of dating sites, (lesbian dating sites.) Many of the women on these sites closely resemble June Cleaver.


For those of you who found Ms Cleaver's perfection to be challenging or daunting, remember - it is much easier to be perfect when you only have to do it for 1/2 hour per week.


Keep writing, my beautiful femmes, you are so smart.

Smooches,
Keri




-------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd like to touch on my personal perception of Femme, Femme is my gender, it's an evolution from dyke. My gender (Femme) isn't tied to butch, it really isn't tied to anything other that it's my gender presentation. AND because my Femme/gender varies I am comfortable with it because of the very fact that Femme is variant.

So with that thought process I am comfortable in my gender and I can express it fully from one end of the spectrum to the other and not skip a beat or worry about being *less than* when doing so comfortably in the real world. The only time I catch myself questioning my Femme "status" is online, but that's on me for letting others words fuck with my head.


I am Femme period. That means I am Femme as I sit here in my pajamas with my nappy hair pulled back, no make up, crusty ass feet cause I need a pedi, my hair all kinky and unruly and I am Femme.


That also means I can get up, shower, slap a dress on (I only wear dresses here no because it's Florida and it's fucking hot) and go to the store in flip flops no make up and I am jamming on my tunes as Femme.

Which also means when I am at work be it with stains all over me or a bit more cleaned up I am Femme.

I am Femme each time a piece of leather hugs my skin and I am Femme when applying my falsies and I am Femme when my thick cock is bursting from my hips and wiggles as I walk to my bed.


Femme, not tied to anything but me Snow... Who happens to be Queer and who came to her Femme via Queer experiences and Queer models I looked up to. I knew I was born Female yet I knew I wasn't *straight* (and what I guess I should say is heteronormative) that's why *I* feel that Femme is Queer because I know of no other woman who gets it when I say

"I'm Femme"

As a Femme I embrace all other Femme's and do get upset and riled up when a *straight* (hetero) woman is used as a Femme icon that I as a Femme should up hold.


I can't, she's not Queer, gay, lesbian, trans, bi she is a woman who's life is so different from mine and always will be our small similarities as women born into female bodies ties us via the ism highway.


I have that same bond with butches, but that doesn't make me butch.

[Medusa]

Ouch.

I just read Keri's post.

That one stings.

I don't think Femme needs Butch to exist. I think I'm a Femme no matter who I fuck.

And I think that Femmes who fuck Transmen and other Femmes are still Femmes.

And I think that Femmes who don't want to fuck anyone are Femmes.

I don't think gender is defined by orgasm.

[Nat]

If June Cleaver defined femme for me, I wouldn't consider myself a femme.

[Julie]

This almost reminds me of a long ago post in which...
If you are in a sexual relationship with a Stone Butch - You are not a Lesbian!
If I don't eat Pussy - I am not a Lesbian. (sorry for being crass - but this is the statement that was presented).
If I don't fuck my partner - I am not a Lesbian.
Stone Femme's who do not touch are merely women who gain pleasure and are selfish!

Julie (Femme - Lesbian - Woman)

[princessbelle]

I see femme as just a fluidity of inner beauty that resonates who you are and who you want to be.

I see all gender that way.

If a masculine butch stood in front of me or FtM or Trans or any person and said they feel they are femme, or they ID as femme?

More power to them!!!!

There is no "femme detector test" that we walk into and it closes the door and the light goes green or red. It is our own truths.

IMO the one and ONLY thing that is important with IDs is what you, yourself decide. There is no ifs, ands or buts or becauses or rules or guidelines how you dress or who you take to bed, about it at all.

If you are straight and want to ID as femme? Do it. If your vision is that femme's only date lesbians or other femmes or FtMs or whatever...have at it. No one's view or opinion on things will ever negate or transfer my ID. No one has the power to do that. No one ever will.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Can I ask two questions???


And please know that I mean NO disrespect, there is absolutely NO judgement, and I admire everybody for doing what they feel is authintic in their life.


1- When I saw Snow's first question. It seemed real simple to me. As evidenced by my response.

My question......how do we go from what *I* feel is a simple straight forward, the world was stupid, some people are still stupid answer, into a discussion of the feminist movement and the power players and et al.?

I know that sometimes I don't get down and dirty with things, but for me, the most simple answer is the most logical solution kinda thing?? Again, there is no judgement. I strictly want to understand the line of thinking. Cause maybe a little part of me feels I should go there too. you know? I really do. When I was in law school we had many courses in which we had to dig into the minds of others and I think I still have a hangover from that.


2- Medusa's last post help me formulate this question that has been bouncing around in my head for a while. Thanks Medusa!!

As a femme, I enjoy, love, need the bonding with other femmes. I love talking about what makes each one the femme they are. I like hearing histories and being invited into their lives and understanding what made them the femme they are today. However, I'm not understanding why we as femmes need to completley tear apart the meaning of femme, try to understand and put constraints on what *femme* is, is not, should be, could be...etc. Or Medusa are you talking more about just bonding discussions on a larger scale. Because I understand those. Obviously, I've never had the gift of being able to attend a conferance. And I sure am glad I missed that first one you described. I'm not nice.

It concerns me for a couple reasons if we are trying to label and define *femme.* But that's just me. And I really want to understand how other think about that?

Another note....I do COMPLETLEY agree that in the past, present and future, people have and will, display horrible bigotry towards people that are not *them*. The others I guess I'd call it. I believe that whatever group has been *othered* should stand up and call that bullshit out real quick and in a hurry!!! Actually, I feel that even when not in the *othered* group, if dumb shit behavior is displayed, you (general) should call it out. But I have concerns about how some of this sets up an us-vs-them sorta vibe which to *memememe* can be just as harming.

I'm not going real deep into my thinking because I really want to see what *you* think about my questions. Cause to me, that's WAY more interesting that thought i live with daily.

Or maybe this should be a different thread. Oh well, I just thought I'd through it out here and see.



j


I wasn't intentionally starting a conversation on Feminism, I knew it would come up because a lot of us are Feminists and we come here because this place was built on Feminist values. Also there was no intent on redefining Femme. I believe Femme's get to do that for themselves because of how Femme is so vast.


The intent I had when it came to this particular thread is and will be to dissect, discuss, tear apart the continuous subject of "The Cleavers" and the comparison of the correct way to be Femme via June Cleaver.

This particular comparison gets brought up over and over in threads and I keep wondering why so therefore the question to all Femme's and how they feel about being compared to "June Cleaver" a straight woman who is being put in a Femme Icon place.


That shit right there drives me fucking bonkers to the point I was be like

$$#@!! because if I compared a butch to some hunky straight guy we all know there would be hell.

I can't say I blame them because butches aren't straight guys, unless they are and like our Gender/Identity/Label it's variant and all over the gender marker spectrum that it's almost ludicrous to compare anything QUEER to anything *straight* (hetero).

Then I go OMGay I am a Latina, so therefore once again my Femme/Gender is disregarded via I can't identify culturally to "The Cleavers"

*deep breath*


ETA

I also spoke and am speaking about Femme from my personal experiences and view, they do not define others and how they are Femme just me:)

[julieisafemme]

I agree Belle but it does bug me when straight people say they are femme or queer. I guess I feel that way because my road to claiming queer and femme came with a lot of loss and grief and I feel like I fought to be seen as who and what I am today. I don't quite understand why a straight person would identify tha way except to be even more than an ally? It does make me cranky though!

[The_Lady_Snow]

I agree Belle but it does bug me when straight people say they are femme or queer. I guess I feel that way because my road to claiming queer and femme came with a lot of loss and grief and I feel like I fought to be seen as who and what I am today. I don't quite understand why a straight person would identify tha way except to be even more than an ally? It does make me cranky though!



Know what pisses me off even more.

When I log in here and I see the Femme, Butch, Trans, Zie's, post a picture of a feminine woman and refer to her as Femme or when describing a straight (hetero) woman they see on the street and have a boner for as Femme.

It's a mixture of anger, hurst, angst, and seperation. It's nothing to do with insecurity, jealousy it's all to do with stop giving other's what is MINE and I've worked hard for!

[princessbelle]

I agree Belle but it does bug me when straight people say they are femme or queer. I guess I feel that way because my road to claiming queer and femme came with a lot of loss and grief and I feel like I fought to be seen as who and what I am today. I don't quite understand why a straight person would identify tha way except to be even more than an ally? It does make me cranky though!

I get this i do!!! I believe your thoughts are the majority opinion on that. I don't know why i don't feel that way to be honest. I just feel that anyone (that means anyone) has the right to ID anyway they want to.

It doesn't bother me about straight people doing that either. Maybe i should examine the "why" it doesn't bother me a little more. I guess for one thing i've never ran into that. Most of my friends when i say i am a femme, they don't have a clue what i'm talking about. LOL.

Anyway, good discussion.

[Julie]

I get this i do!!! I believe your thoughts are the majority opinion on that. I don't know why i don't feel that way to be honest. I just feel that anyone (that means anyone) has the right to ID anyway they want to.

It doesn't bother me about straight people doing that either. Maybe i should examine the "why" it doesn't bother me a little more. I guess for one thing i've never ran into that. Most of my friends when i say i am a femme, they don't have a clue what i'm talking about. LOL.

Anyway, good discussion.


It bothers me if I hear a straight woman refer to herself as Femme. For me, Femme is part of my queer identity. There is no place in the world for me, for a straight woman while living her visible life filled with privilege to refer to herself as Femme.

Julie

[julieisafemme]

I get this i do!!! I believe your thoughts are the majority opinion on that. I don't know why i don't feel that way to be honest. I just feel that anyone (that means anyone) has the right to ID anyway they want to.

It doesn't bother me about straight people doing that either. Maybe i should examine the "why" it doesn't bother me a little more. I guess for one thing i've never ran into that. Most of my friends when i say i am a femme, they don't have a clue what i'm talking about. LOL.

Anyway, good discussion.


Well we live in groovy land so young people here seem to push the boundaries of definitions on any number of things. In some ways I guess it means that the othering of queers is less with young people. But to me it is even more othering to say that there is no distinction between us. I don't feel accepted by that. I feel discounted.

[princessbelle]

Makes perfect sense..

I guess i've never encountered that. I would probably have a different view point.

Actually, never gave it much thought at all.

I live a very sheltered, straight cultured, life down here in Tennessee. No body ever says femme, besides me.

I'll have to think on that some more....

[Nat]

As a person who spent a long time in contemplation before any action was taken outside of "straight" behavior - never having kissed another woman before the age of 27 - I didn't feel the right to identify as anything other than possibly bisexual until I had moved beyond crushes and imaginings and dreams and contemplations and into the "reality" of physicality.

Now I look back at all that time I denied myself to myself not simply because I was ashamed but because I didn't let myself identify more accurately without the *proof* I felt the physical/sexual would have given (and eventually did give) me.

Because I lived in a "straight" marriage, I felt voiceless when talking about my own sexuality/orientation. A girl or woman who has only been with men talking about not knowing if she's a lesbian - who listens to her or respects what identity she forms? I shut myself up.

And though I do get tired of women I perceive as straight talking to me about how they might be lesbian or wish they were lesbian or hate men or blah blah blah, I don't want to deny anybody the right to identify as queer no matter what state their lives are in.

I'd rather I hadn't silenced myself - feeling the need to manifest sexually my desires before allowing myself a claim to any real queer identity.

I have never been a thing like June Cleaver. She represents much of what I see as society's expectations of me as a female person.

I could totally get into some Lucy/Ethel slash though.

[Nomad]

piggybacking off of the processing about straight women using the word "femme" as part of their identity --- i've heard other people use this word to describe themselves too. can a particular word actually "belong to" (for lack of a better descriptor) a particular group of people? i dont think it can in 95% of the cases. i know a solid handful of gay men who use the word "femme" to describe themselves. i know a straight man who uses the word to describe himself. i knew a transguy in Seattle that used the word "femme" to describe himself.

can we be perschnickity about this sort of thing? arent people's ID words theirs to choose? i bring it up, despite not knowing exactly where i stand on the idea because i'm still shuffling the info, because recently someone told me that i wasnt who i described myself to be. i called myself something, i cant remember what, something like blah blah blah stonefemme blah blah blah and the person i was talking to sort of laughed and said "oh Nomad, you're not a stone femme." (as if SHE would know!) i felt like she was negating my definition of myself and i dont know anyone who has the right to do that. so maybe that's where my curiosity-questioning-processing comes from, even though the two arent necessarily related.

and i hope this isnt derailing the thread because i dont want to do that.

(just trying to sort it all out)

[The_Lady_Snow]

It bothers me if I hear a straight woman refer to herself as Femme. For me, Femme is part of my queer identity. There is no place in the world for me, for a straight woman while living her visible life filled with privilege to refer to herself as Femme.

Julie


I have straight girlfriends, who are female bodied we are worlds apart when it comes to how we live our lives. Kelly doesn't have to endure the questioning I do if I do come out as Femme at work. Kelly doesn't feel out of place at the Buffalo Wings during a game. Kelly and her whomever she dates can hold hands and kiss (peck) on the lips and people aren't going to be like WHAT!


As soon as I open my mouth and speak my queer identity is known because of the way I speak on certain subject manners and how I address them.

[Nomad]

SNIPPITY

I could totally get into some Lucy/Ethel slash though.

:cracked:

i am soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Lucy (with some Elyse Keaton and some Florida Evans thrown in)

[princessbelle]

Wow that's some great points!!!

I think maybe that is why i feel the way i do about femme being used by anyone who claims it, because, like Nat, i lived a straight life with a bio man. Didn't change who i was on the inside. I knew i was gay, didn't know the term femme at the time. Did people have the right to tell me i wasn't gay? I may not have been living a gay life, but that didn't change who i was or how i felt on the inside.

I guess my point is, if we put femme into a box of what it can "only" be.... Isn't that limiting? Isn't that forming a certain type of hierarchy? And if we agree that femme does not mean you have to dress or ____ (insert descriptive), doesn't it also mean that ANYONE can claim that identity? If that is what you feel in your heart? Or is the line drawn at being straight? Or living a straight life?

I'm talking in seriousness here. Not someone making fun or poking at us. I mean if a straight women says "im a femme" how can i tell her, no you aren't. Ya know?

Still trying to sort this out...

[julieisafemme]

This is the best conversation I have had in a long time! Thank you all so much.

I am young in lesbian years having only come out 5 years ago. That could be why I bristle at others using femme. I don't have a problem with a gay man or a Transman or even a butch bringing femme into their identity. Maybe that is because they are still queer. I feel sometimes that straight people use queer or femme because it is "cool" and they want to have some of that coolness. They want to say "hey I'm like you too!"

I totally agree with you Nat about not wanting to put a questioning person on the outside or negating their process. My experience was very similar to yours. But I did not know the first thing about being queer, femme or lesbian when I was in that questioning phase. I had to experience it first hand before I felt I could speak to it or identify myself as any of those things. It goes a lot deeper to me than just using the words.

[Nat]

I know this is meandering off the subject of June Cleaver, but I see this as a way in which femmes do not have privilege - if a butch were with a man and claimed to be queer nobody would resent it.

[girl_dee]

When i think of the evolvement of women's roles in the home and society regarding television i not only think of June Cleaver.

Bewitched ~ Samantha was a stay at home mom. Soon as Darren walked in she fixed him a *double*. She was allowed to pop in at the office but usually just for a visit.

The Honeymooners ~ i absolutely loved this show, but poor Alice. All hell broke loose because when Ralph got laid off, she went and got a job. And as was brought up in another thread *Bang zoom*.. with a fist in her face. You never saw Alice threaten to Bang Zoom Ralphieboy.

Ozzie and Harriet ~ i only saw the reruns but Harriet Nelson was just like June Cleaver i think.

Dick Van Dyke ~ Same as above

I Love Lucy ~ Lucy of course wanted to be in the show
(Another sign of the times, Lucy was the first woman to be shown pregnant on TV, and the word pregnant was not allowed. She was shunned for years for being in a *mixed marriage*. )

There were so many more back then..

Then we progressed

The Flintsones ~ modeled after the Honeymooners, even in cartoon land the wives were opressed.

That Girl ~ Marlo Thomas as a female lead

Mary Tyler Moore ~ A woman working in an office.. i LOVED her.

and the list goes on.



My point is that unfortunately June was not an unusual character for Hollywood and as kids it's all we had.

i wonder what the kids of today will have to say in 50 years?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Wow that's some great points!!!

I think maybe that is why i feel the way i do about femme being used by anyone who claims it, because, like Nat, i lived a straight life with a bio man. Didn't change who i was on the inside. I knew i was gay, didn't know the term femme at the time. Did people have the right to tell me i wasn't gay? I may not have been living a gay life, but that didn't change who i was or how i felt on the inside.

I guess my point is, if we put femme into a box of what it can "only" be.... Isn't that limiting? Isn't that forming a certain type of hierarchy? And if we agree that femme does not mean you have to dress or ____ (insert descriptive), doesn't it also mean that ANYONE can claim that identity? If that is what you feel in your heart? Or is the line drawn at being straight? Or living a straight life?

I'm talking in seriousness here. Not someone making fun or poking at us. I mean if a straight women says "im a femme" how can i tell her, no you aren't. Ya know?

Still trying to sort this out...



I don't deny who she is, the likely hood of a heteronormative Femme and I kickin it won't happen, sure we'll hang out once in awhile but it's not the same it truly isn't and I love love my hetero friends but it's not the same... I am coming from a Gender perspective and no hetero woman is going to view her gender as I do


We'll have a very different kind of relationship than I do with Julie (of the New York Julies)

[The_Lady_Snow]

It's like the Femme Swap, my friend Kelly doesn't get it why it's so defining.


Erika does.....

[julieisafemme]

I don't deny who she is, the likely hood of a heteronormative Femme and I kickin it won't happen, I am coming from a Gender perspective and no hetero woman is going to view her gender as I do


We'll have a very different kind of relationship than I do with Julie (of the New York Julies)

Yes I agree so much with this. The relationships I have with femmes are very different than the relationships I have with straight women. That was quite a revelation to me!

[Julie]

Wow that's some great points!!!

I think maybe that is why i feel the way i do about femme being used by anyone who claims it, because, like Nat, i lived a straight life with a bio man. Didn't change who i was on the inside. I knew i was gay, didn't know the term femme at the time. Did people have the right to tell me i wasn't gay? I may not have been living a gay life, but that didn't change who i was or how i felt on the inside.

I guess my point is, if we put femme into a box of what it can "only" be.... Isn't that limiting? Isn't that forming a certain type of hierarchy? And if we agree that femme does not mean you have to dress or ____ (insert descriptive), doesn't it also mean that ANYONE can claim that identity? If that is what you feel in your heart? Or is the line drawn at being straight? Or living a straight life?

I'm talking in seriousness here. Not someone making fun or poking at us. I mean if a straight women says "im a femme" how can i tell her, no you aren't. Ya know?

Still trying to sort this out...


Femme is an identifying descriptor in our queer community.
Femme is part of our history. It dates back in time and it is how we connected.
If you hand over Femme and say it's okay/accept for anybody to use this.
Then in reality you are erasing our history.
Without our history and the Femme's and Butches who have come before us - then you are erasing me, as I am Femme, it is who I am and it is my identity. It has no place in the straight community.

Julie

EDITED TO SAY: You can say to the straight woman who identifies as straight - Our history. Tell her. Be honest. If you do not know our history, then please read as much as you can about it, and perhaps you will not see it as being placed in a box - but an honor to be surrounded and loved as a Femme by and for your Femme sisters.

[princessbelle]

Yes I agree so much with this. The relationships I have with femmes are very different than the relationships I have with straight women. That was quite a revelation to me!

Agree agree agree. There is something about having femme sisters and friends that is just heaven on earth.

Can't put my finger on it, but it is real and it is amazing and wow is it beautiful.

Seriously, we are so blessed to have each other. The femme swap comes to mind. So many different personalities but wow the love and the feeling of being there.

It's like no feeling i've ever felt or even came close to feeling.

[The_Lady_Snow]

When i think of the evolvement of women's roles in the home and society regarding television i not only think of June Cleaver.

Bewitched ~ Samantha was a stay at home mom. Soon as Darren walked in she fixed him a *double*. She was allowed to pop in at the office but usually just for a visit.

The Honeymooners ~ i absolutely loved this show, but poor Alice. All hell broke loose because when Ralph got laid off, she went and got a job. And as was brought up in another thread *Bang zoom*.. with a fist in her face. You never saw Alice threaten to Bang Zoom Ralphieboy.

Ozzie and Harriet ~ i only saw the reruns but Harriet Nelson was just like June Cleaver i think.

Dick Van Dyke ~ Same as above

I Love Lucy ~ Lucy of course wanted to be in the show
(Another sign of the times, Lucy was the first woman to be shown pregnant on TV, and the word pregnant was not allowed. She was shunned for years for being in a *mixed marriage*. )

There were so many more back then..

Then we progressed

The Flintsones ~ modeled after the Honeymooners, even in cartoon land the wives were opressed.

That Girl ~ Marlo Thomas as a female lead

Mary Tyler Moore ~ A woman working in an office.. i LOVED her.

and the list goes on.



My point is that unfortunately June was not an unusual character for Hollywood and as kids it's all we had.

i wonder what the kids of today will have to say in 50 years?



Claire Huxtable

Murphy Brown

Roseanne

Anne Romano

Kate & Allie

Cate Hennessey

Ellen Degeneres

Oprah Winfrey



We still do not see any of these women being upheld and used as comparisons when it comes to Femme.

[JustJo]

On straight women claiming Femme...

Like julieisafemme, I was very late coming out....as in a handful of years ago...and I spent a long time squashing down any self-knowledge about myself and my sexuality, refusing to look at what was missing. Once I finally figured it out, it was an incredibly freeing feeling....to be able to have a word for that part of who I am.

So...I don't want to share "femme" with straight women. I feel like they have plenty of other words they can use to describe themselves without co-opting ours.

That's really the only limit for me. I don't think femmes need to partner with butches, or anyone, to be femme. I have no problem with gay men claiming femme. For me, femme is a queer thing.

I get that maybe straight women admire something that we have or are, and want to claim femme...but that would be like me saying I admire Lady Snow and want to be like her...and claim Latina. It just doesn't work like that in my head.

Loving this conversation :rrose:

[Julie]

Agree agree agree. There is something about having femme sisters and friends that is just heaven on earth.

Can't put my finger on it, but it is real and it is amazing and wow is it beautiful.

Seriously, we are so blessed to have each other. The femme swap comes to mind. So many different personalities but wow the love and the feeling of being there.

It's like no feeling i've ever felt or even came close to feeling.



And on a personal note to you Princess... You are my Femme Sister and I care deeply for you on a vast spectrum. I will NEVER view a straight woman the same way I view you... She will never be my Femme Sister - She might be might be my sister... But never my Femme Sister. The same goes for a few other beautiful Femmes here who have gotten inside of this hard exterior of mine. They will never share the same place at my table, as my straight female friends. We are Kin.

And I hope you don't feel beaten up (by me) for your views - they are yours and you are entitled to your opinion... I will not think less of you. I think there is a bit of learning for all of us and it is a continuum and I hope I continue to learn.

♥ Julie

[girl_dee]

Claire Huxtable

Murphy Brown

Roseanne

Anne Romano

Kate & Allie

Cate Hennessey

Ellen Degeneres

Oprah Winfrey



We still do not see any of these women being upheld and used as comparisons when it comes to Femme.


No we sure don't. i personally don't resonate with any of them, although at one time i may have.

Maybe because June was the absolute epitome of what men felt and do still feel women should act/look/smell/behave like, she is easily thrown out there as a comparison to us.

[The_Lady_Snow]

No we sure don't. i personally don't resonate with any of them, although at one time i may have.

Maybe because June was the absolute epitome of what men felt and do still feel women should act/look/smell/behave like, she is easily thrown out there as a comparison to us.



Right and that right there drives me batty when we get broad stroked into that kind of thinking....

There is no all powerful grand poobah of Femme.... We all do Femme different.

[*Anya*]

This is an awesome thread. It is an entire series of consciousness raising groups in one reading of the thread.

It reminds me of the "old days" when I was in NOW (Betty Friedan called us lesbians the "lavender menace") and we used to hash these ideas, concepts and theories out constantly.

Sometimes, I get discouraged that feminism has receded into the background for women but reading everyone's posts, I see that a feminist consciousness, is alive and well.

I am so happy to know this.

[princessbelle]

And on a personal note to you Princess... You are my Femme Sister and I care deeply for you on a vast spectrum. I will NEVER view a straight woman the same way I view you... She will never be my Femme Sister - She might be might be my sister... But never my Femme Sister. The same goes for a few other beautiful Femmes here who have gotten inside of this hard exterior of mine. They will never share the same place at my table, as my straight female friends. We are Kin.

And I hope you don't feel beaten up (by me) for your views - they are yours and you are entitled to your opinion... I will not think less of you. I think there is a bit of learning for all of us and it is a continuum and I hope I continue to learn.

♥ Julie



<3 you too.

Maybe i'm not explaining it well enough....or maybe i am. LOL. But, here goes again...

The word femme to me is a dynamic that is near and dear to my heart. I found this word when i was new to the gay dynamic. I knew nothing about the gay world and was totally lost. I was more feminine than any of the gay people i knew and thought i was a freak. THEN i found BF. THEN i found the word femme. THEN i fit in. I hold that word as sacred. Still do.

My ONLY point with what i was saying is how can *we* say that in someone's heart they aren't a femme. In other words, when i was married to a bio guy i know NOW i was a femme. I was living a straight life. I was seen as straight, but in my HEART i was a femme, just didn't know it yet. If i had known that word, i would have claimed that identity. No one has the right to take that from me IMO. Therefore, how can i deny any woman that honor and tell them they are not.

But, as far as "us femmes" in the gay community, it is special and beautiful and there is no one in the straight world that could come close to how i feel with my femme sisters. I get that. I get that more than i can tell you. You know i get that. You know me. It is a special word and it is a special identity.

I'll just end my thoughts with this...

I would never view a straight woman with the same level of love i feel for other femmes either. No matter how they ID. Never meant to imply that i felt differently.

[The_Lady_Snow]

<3 you too.

Maybe i'm not explaining it well enough....or maybe i am. LOL. But, here goes again...

The word femme to me is a dynamic that is near and dear to my heart. I found this word when i was new to the gay dynamic. I knew nothing about the gay world and was totally lost. I was more feminine than any of the gay people i knew and thought i was a freak. THEN i found BF. THEN i found the word femme. THEN i fit in. I hold that word as sacred. Still do.

My ONLY point with what i was saying is how can *we* say that in someone's heart they aren't a femme. In other words, when i was married to a bio guy i know NOW i was a femme. I was living a straight life. I was seen as straight, but in my HEART i was a femme, just didn't know it yet. If i had known that word, i would have claimed that identity. No one has the right to take that from me IMO. Therefore, how can i deny any woman that honor and tell them they are not.

But, as far as "us femmes" in the gay community, it is special and beautiful and there is no one in the straight world that could come close to how i feel with my femme sisters. I get that. I get that more than i can tell you. You know i get that. You know me. It is a special word and it is a special identity.

I'll just end my thoughts with this...

I would never view a straight woman with the same level of love i feel for other femmes either. No matter how they ID. Never meant to imply that i felt differently.









I went through this very same thought when I was married, I was a dyke, married to a bio man. I never thought that when I sat down and picked myself apart that a word could change me so much like Femme did. It made sense to me and I kept it a secret between me and those I was involved with at the time. I often questioned my gender because of the social markers that get imposed on Femme. I wasn't fitting them and I certainly couldn't fully live as Femme while in my marriage. Queer, Dyke, Poly, Gay fit well and I didn't feel I had to not claim them.

It was like my Femme was in the closet and well this closet burst. Then I met more women like me and then more and more. I knew a few Femme's but the online communities I belonged to started too bursting at the seams with Femme. I found myself wading and sorting through all things that people were assigning Femme and slipped comfortably into my Gender.

It's not easy when one as a Femme has to almost plan when it is ok to be you, it's oppressive and us being women it's a rough time self examining one's needs because we are brow beaten into x, y, z. For me if a woman, man, is having and experiencing queer feelings, queer thoughts, queer desires more likely than you will fit one of the many labels that we use.


Straight girls don't struggle with that. I asked and ask my friends and they are like um NO. Their choices in sex, love, politics, critical thinking is over ------------------------------------------------>

while mine is over there
<----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Opposite, maybe some similarities but not to many.

[princessbelle]

I went through this very same thought when I was married, I was a dyke, married to a bio man. I never thought that when I sat down and picked myself apart that a word could change me so much like Femme did. It made sense to me and I kept it a secret between me and those I was involved with at the time. I often questioned my gender because of the social markers that get imposed on Femme. I wasn't fitting them and I certainly couldn't fully live as Femme while in my marriage. Queer, Dyke, Poly, Gay fit well and I didn't feel I had to not claim them.

It was like my Femme was in the closet and well this closet burst. Then I met more women like me and then more and more. I knew a few Femme's but the online communities I belonged to started too bursting at the seams with Femme. I found myself wading and sorting through all things that people were assigning Femme and slipped comfortably into my Gender.

It's not easy when one as a Femme has to almost plan when it is ok to be you, it's oppressive and us being women it's a rough time self examining one's needs because we are brow beaten into x, y, z. For me if a woman, man, is having and experiencing queer feelings, queer thoughts, queer desires more likely than you will fit one of the many labels that we use.


Straight girls don't struggle with that. I asked and ask my friends and they are like um NO. Their choices in sex, love, politics, critical thinking is over ------------------------------------------------>

while mine is over there
<----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Opposite, maybe some similarities but not to many.

It was hard, wasn't it? I also remember on the dash site when i figured out what femme was and that i was one. But, then i read on some of the threads about femmes had to wear high heals all the time yada yada. I started second guessing the word for a long time and i thought, well heck, maybe i'm not.

But, i held on and found out femme can mean so many things to so many different people.

Well, it's a beautiful word and is shared by a lot beautiful women. And i'm so glad i figured out i don't have to be ____ to claim it.

[girl_dee]

yup it was a hard Femme journey for myself as well. i told my (ex) husband that i was gay after one year of marriage, we stayed in it for 10 because there were commitments and kids involved, and i felt it was my job, besides i was trying to *fix* my gay. We were never like a married couple, more like a team who had a mission. We had a great run, but i knew my time would come. i tried to be Carol Brady/June Cleaver/Mary Tyler Moore and i dream of Jeannie all at once.

add in there a strong desire for kink and you got a real confused woman.


So divorce came then i came out of the closet .. the splinters were flying.

i was GAY!!!!!!!

So then i was free to be *gay*. i went out and got a girlfriend. She was a femme i suppose, heck i don't know what she was, but she was not butch. First day she wanted me to pick up her dry cleaning. Then she borrowed my shoes, my dresses... then she asked me to stop at her house and take out her trash, if i didn't mind. i stopped by and broke up with her! i realized i don't like women all THAT much after all. We fought for bottom you might say. it was so awkward and i was so disappointed that i was not *gay* after all. i felt like a freak. i didn't like men, and i didn't like women and i wanted someone to take control of me.

THEN a gay co-worker took me to a gay bar. i walked in scared to death. i looked around ....

i said *let's go.... there's nothing but men in here*

She said *dee? them ain't men*

:awww:

i swooned at all the butches lined up at the bar, their energy. i felt like that was my defining femme moment. i finally figured out what i was, mostly.

A short time later i went into service for a Butch Master. She had a femme partner and we bonded, and that was a special time for me. i knew i had a wonderful, awesome life ahead because i knew who i was for once.

i remember when my husband found out i had a girlfriend, he was happy for me. He wanted to meet my girlfriend, i said sure.. so he drove by (we lived near each other) and he stopped over.. introduced him to my very butch girlfriend, he looked at her and said *omg this is disgusting*

Ruined his fantasy much?

[The_Lady_Snow]

It was hard, wasn't it? I also remember on the dash site when i figured out what femme was and that i was one. But, then i read on some of the threads about femmes had to wear high heals all the time yada yada. I started second guessing the word for a long time and i thought, well heck, maybe i'm not.

But, i held on and found out femme can mean so many things to so many different people.

Well, it's a beautiful word and is shared by a lot beautiful women. And i'm so glad i figured out i don't have to be ____ to claim it.






It was only hard when I stepped out of my leather, that's been the only place as a Femme where my gender, my cock, my presentation, my dress has never been questioned.

Yet

[Nomad]

I think what is different about the oppression of women in the fifties and now is that it was sold to us as the norm, as the way to be a real woman, and we believed it. When we didn't believe it, there were sanctions to enforce it, including violence. There are many women still who lack power in their relationships and who suffer because of that. When patriarchal ideology is is used to justify these conditions, as it sometimes is among conservative religious folk, it becomes that much harder for women to realize that they are being ill-treated, to find allies, and to get out.

The conservative women who live these lives and love it -- and there are a lot of them -- I say you are lucky. Lucky that it worked out for you. If you had gotten the wrong husband or perhaps had been very poor, what hell might it have been for you? I hope they think about that the next time they teach in Sunday School that women should obey their husbands.

Women really lacking power and being oppressed -- that's nothing I support in any way. Pretending to lack power in that and even more sickening scenarios -- I am up for that. I like much more twisted shit than that. (not sharing).

As for people who live something that LOOKS like a traditional hierarchical arrangement but isn't, good for you. Have at it. I mean, who cares? I don't see any group of lesbians or feminists criticizing women for choosing whatever kind of arrangements. I think for most, the operative word would be "choose." There may be a few, but it's no one's public agenda to tell folks how to relate to their partners. Feminists are too busy trying to make sure unfunded battered women's shelters stay open and busy trying to protect abortion rights.

The Martha Stewart phenomenon is, I think, bad and good. Seventies feminism was about claiming the public sphere for women. The eighties conservative reaction -- Izod and proms and Martha Stewart -- was, in part, a backlash, but in part a reclaiming of the things we liked about the world before feminism, including homemaking. Martha is more popular among working class women who don't have the time or resources to do what she does or live as she does than she ever was with upper middle class women. It's a fantasy. It's not a bad one if you don't take it too seriously. It's not just about being all things to all people, knowing everything, doing everything well. It's about pleasure and self-care. It's also about one's relationship to consumerism. Do you make it yourself or buy it? If you buy it, what are you buying? Where are you getting it from? For some people, it's a political issue, for some it's about the quality of the experience. More and more, it's about both.

The recession has resulted in more focus on the home. It's cheaper to be home than go out. And so many people have lost their homes that I think we appreciate them more. Figuring out one's relationship to the home and homemaking is not easy.

Re June Cleaver, I would do her. I would lift that shirt dress over her head and . . . .

some scattered thoughts about the items highlighted above:


i'm one of the choosers. i choose to live a "lifestyle" (hate that word) that is focused on domesticity and on my own pursuits. i'm single now, and no different than i would be if i were partnered, except that now i trade my skills for room & board. if i lived alone i'd do all of these things for myself. and when partnered, i do them for my One. but i do them as part of a dynamic that suits me. i prefer service oriented submission. it makes me happy. i've partnered with people who understand that and reciprocate and people who said they understood at the beginning and discovered later that perhaps they didnt understand at all. one thing i can always tell, the relationship is over when i go from service oriented submissive to "mule". (my term for work w/no reciprocity).

when i'm doing the domestic part of my thing in a loving, reciprocity based relationship i find that i am very happy, very sexually engaged, very devoted to working on my relationship AND very respected for what i offer. i've wanted that particular "lifestyle" since i was a kid, despite my very feminist mother's incessant objection and abhorrence of the idea. and if i have unconsciously or inadvertently called it a 50s thing, it's not with oppressive nature of those times in mind. it was with no particular thought in mind at all, frankly. not because i'm incapable but because i never thought i'd be called upon to defend it. (i am NOT saying that i'm being called upon to do that now. i do not feel anyone is attacking anyone else or being unfair. i am enjoying reading the discussion.) i never honestly thought past my own understanding of what was going on in my life, between me and a partner. if someone else sees the dynamic i have with a partner it's rare.

there definitely ARE feminists (of every variety) who are vocally and vehemently critical of my choice to be faithful to my feelings about myself and the way i interact within the self-chosen parameters of my relationships. i live with one of them now. i've encountered at least 3 or 4 dozen of like-minded people since arriving on the east coast a few months ago and i am routinely criticized on a weekly (at least) basis by a friend of my landlord for being "too fucking muck like June Cleaver". i've been told that my "lifestyle is a betrayal of feminism" or of "queer progress", i've been told i'm an "insult" to feminism, a "slap in the face to women's rights", a "traitor to women", a "lesbian poser" and a couple of worse things, including that i'm "sick". painful stuff. i usually just walk away but the few times i've engaged in conversation i've met brick wall resistance. oddly, i spend more time actively fighting for abortion rights, birth control access, homeless services and so on. most of the feminists i've met and known are content to rest on that label of honor.

as for Martha, she's impossible to achieve and i dont want to. but i'm a redesign mavin who never buys new, always makes something out of nothing, and refuses to contribute to hyper-consumerism or send more to the landfill than is necessary. i like some of her ideas but i'm more of a Maria Brito fan, but then again Brito isnt being force fed to me at every grocery check out line either. do i dig some of Martha's stuff? you bet. am i lining up for her autograph? no. MS is a brand, not a person. i like her as an idea producer. i also think she's ridiculous. she has a schedule for oiling her saddles. who the f*ck has a saddle schedule? i dont even know the bus schedule! my Stewart/Brito tendencies come from having wanted to be a designer at a very young age. i have a Masters Degree now, in something much less marketable than Interior Design and i have always regretted it. to me such things arent the consumerist facade they've become. they're about making beauty or fun or tranquility as you define it; about creating a haven away from the busy-ness of the world where you can recuperate and laugh and cry and f*ck and eat and drink and play and fight and love and relax and discover community and family and long term connection.

as for you and June, i think you should invite Martha too. she always strikes me as easily underestimated.

[Martina]

As a friend, I can be as close to a straight woman, andro dyke, butch, trans person, or cis-man as I can be to a femme. Gender makes no difference to me where friendship is concerned.

And one of my very closest friends is femme, so I do know what it's like to have a femme friend.

Thinking . . . I don't know that our both being femme is even a major part of our bond. I am sorta geeky, and she is very geeky. That's a lot of it. We're both kinky. We both teach. That's huge. We both came from the midwest though from very different backgrounds -- especially in terms of religion. We can talk about anything. We are comfortable around each other. We don't get bored with one another. We got each other's backs.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I too have close friends in the gender spectrum besides Femme. I'm not mentioning them here because they do differ than some of my Femme relationships.

I, Snow didn't choose to talk about other genders because I've so many compartments it would be confusing and not important to the conversation:)

[Martina]

In fifties films, being a housewife wasn't just about housework and being limited to the private sphere. She was also supposed to help create a suburban man, who would make money so the family could consume more and who be committed to the family and the community. She brought the husband into the private sphere and changed him, domesticated him, rather than stepping out into the work world. It's kind of nauseating, but it was presented as a form of power.

I am not sure how it relates, but every time people talk about the housewife stereotype or list some of the characters, I am reminded of this. Think of Giant. Elizabeth Taylor actually causes her husband to reconsider his racism. She's not depicted as weak. In fact, Bick loses power in the family and in the world over time. But he's happy because he's got the love of a good woman and loving, if not entirely obedient, children.

There were some really subversive films -- not Giant. Ones where you really saw how restrictive suburban life and gender roles were. They weren't uncommon. Melodramas mostly.

Clearly Mrs. Cleaver isn't representative. But it's not all of one piece. There were other messages floating around. There was a struggle going on in real life that you could see in films. The 60's didn't just come out of nowhere.

[ArkansasPiscesGrrl]

Just wanted to stop by in here and thank you ALL for your words. reading the posts have brought tears to my eyes, and caused my breath to catch in my throat more times than I can count. To be able to hear all the ideas, FEEL the strength behind them, the pain, the power, the celebration, means more than I can ever say.

I am so very blessed to be a part of this community, and you all are my heroes!


APG

[aishah]

On straight women claiming Femme...

Like julieisafemme, I was very late coming out....as in a handful of years ago...and I spent a long time squashing down any self-knowledge about myself and my sexuality, refusing to look at what was missing. Once I finally figured it out, it was an incredibly freeing feeling....to be able to have a word for that part of who I am.

So...I don't want to share "femme" with straight women. I feel like they have plenty of other words they can use to describe themselves without co-opting ours.

That's really the only limit for me. I don't think femmes need to partner with butches, or anyone, to be femme. I have no problem with gay men claiming femme. For me, femme is a queer thing.

I get that maybe straight women admire something that we have or are, and want to claim femme...but that would be like me saying I admire Lady Snow and want to be like her...and claim Latina. It just doesn't work like that in my head.

Loving this conversation :rrose:

i pretty much agree with this. but i tend to defer to people's self-identifications, so i don't think i'd ever say to someone YOU cannot claim femme...but if somebody asks me, that's my view on it. to me, femme is by definition queer (whether it's a queer man or woman claiming that id). and to me it is my gender. and i do believe one can be femme and in a relationship that looks straight. or in a relationship with a straight man. that doesn't necessarily make a femme less queer.

the thing that REALLY bothers me, way more than straight women claiming femme, is when other queer people (especially butches and transguys) identify straight women as femmes. my partner and i had a conversation about this because his roommate is a straight woman and she's sweet and we get along well but he's like "y'all femmes like to talk so much" and i'm like she is NOT a femme. she doesn't id as femme. she's a feminine straight (very heteronormative) woman. to me there is a world of difference. same for feminine lesbians who don't id as femme. one of the things that came up with me and my partner is his ex is a feminine lesbian who is adamantly NOT femme...and he definitely has pointed that out...and i am like, well, how can you turn around and start labeling all these straight women who definitely don't id as femme, as femme?

i can't explain why that bugs me so much, but it does. maybe it's the way it feels like it contributes to further making us invisible and erasing us. maybe it's just that i like being a special snowflake.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I went to bed tired last night because I have spent 2 days discussing, dissecting, analyzing, and most of all examining myself and how June Cleaver and I had in common. Then my cock had a spot light shown on it and I was like

*CLARITY*

Not only will I never be her because I am Latina, not in the same economic level as her but I have a cock.


Mrs Cleaver would of been institutionalized for even attempting to suggest to Ward that she wanted to insert her cock into him. It wouldn't of mattered of the desire, need, want was there. Her womanly cock would of been rejected, she would of lost her boys, her life, her marriage everything.


I am glad we are examining this together, as Femme's and even though we may don the pearls, heels, and apron for some fucky/kinky/power dynamic time. We should not allow or stand by and continue to have someone who isn't Femme, who isn't Queer be held up as a role model for Femme. There are plenty of powerful, beautiful, not white, white, sexy women/Femme's out choose as role models.

June Cleaver just isn't it.

[Nomad]

I went to bed tired last night because I have spent 2 days discussing, dissecting, analyzing, and most of all examining myself and how June Cleaver and I had in common. Then my cock had a spot light shown on it and I was like

*CLARITY*

Not only will I never be her because I am Latina, not in the same economic level as her but I have a cock.


Mrs Cleaver would of been institutionalized for even attempting to suggest to Ward that she wanted to insert her cock into him. It wouldn't of mattered of the desire, need, want was there. Her womanly cock would of been rejected, she would of lost her boys, her life, her marriage everything.


I am glad we are examining this together, as Femme's and even though we may don the pearls, heels, and apron for some fucky/kinky/power dynamic time. We should not allow or stand by and continue to have someone who isn't Femme, who isn't Queer be held up as a role model for Femme. There are plenty of powerful, beautiful, not white, white, sexy women/Femme's out choose as role models.

June Cleaver just isn't it.

a-f*cking-men

i might have had an epiphany of my own. i think that June Cleaver is the inspiration for feminism

i dont want to be June Cleaver and i never have. she's not my icon. and i dont think that June Cleaver wants me to be June Cleaver either.

i think, as time went on, June Cleaver would have looked at anyone holding her up as an icon and said, "oh HELL no! i was doing what i needed to do, with the resources i felt were available to me, in order to safeguard my children and THAT is all."

June watched real icons like Shirley Chisolm graduate from Columbia and go on to be elected to Congress and run for president. She read Gloria Steinum's articles about women being forced to choose between home and career. she had a copy of The Feminine Mystique under her pillow and read it 4 pages at a time while Ward was sawing logs or between vacuuming and folding the laundry and at some point the laundry was left unfolded because she couldnt put the damn book down.

i like to pretend that June raised sons that werent assheads. i like to imagine June raising daughters because those women raised the people who changed that world into our world. there may not be much to admire about her era but there was something to learn from it and the women who came from there are the women who created and/or educated us, for better or worse, to separate ourselves from the trap they lived in. we have a lot to acknowledge them for, even if it was just because they provided an example of what we didnt want. people dont always know what they want but they usually know what they dont want and we know some of what we dont want because of June Cleaver and women like her. i dont think June wanted it either. i think it was what she had and she decided to rock it with some heels and some pearls.

it's a mistake to think that the Junes didnt want something different, that they didnt work toward something different, or that they have nothing to do with the something different that was created in the 60s. it's also a mistake to pretend that these arent the same women who envisioned, outlined, and took the some of first steps toward undermining a corner of patriarchy from the inside.

after a few years of saying "Ward, dear....." i think June got tired. i dont see the June Cleavers of the world as continuing to consent to oppression. i see them as the founders of a part of feminism's underground

[The_Lady_Snow]

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/22306_4702897729448_373941969_n.jpg


Romney would love for all women to be like Mrs Cleaver, and I don't mean in a kink/dynamic/sexy time kinda way:|

[The_Lady_Snow]

During the Cleaver years only white women could vote. I can see how maybe June Cleaver could of gained power and gone to school, educated herself, had the opportunity to join the feminist movement. I get where Nomad could think about how June could of.


It wasn't till 1964-65 that POC could vote in Southern states.



I can toy with the idea of her being a feminist, educated, working mother. Someone like me, my mom, my cousin, my friends.

They wouldn't of had the chance, or would of died trying.


It's profound when you look at it in this way for me. She, Mrs Cleaver would be in my life only in kink, and even then I would be in charge of what Ward would from his tie to his meals.


ETA

I thought more about this and then I was like FML

If Mrs Cleaver would of come out of the closet, had she been like US, here on BFP she would of lost her sons, her life, her comforts. Hell, let's be honest she wouldn't of been able to date outside her race without worrying about both of them being KILLED.


WOW....

[girl_dee]

Holy heck i am cross posting on the Planet.

i realized i probably should have posted this here!





i think for some people, possibly myself included, we don't feel that we are whitewashing history by adopting certain behaviors from that time period.

i get that women had no rights, i get that women were stripped of our dreams, hopes and the right to live in our own skin. Hell as an adult i was told i made less money than my male co-worker because he had a high house note to pay. We did the exact same job, only i did mine more efficiently.

By me choosing to embrace being a home maker doesn't by any stretch mean that i do not get and honor that time period and the struggles we still go through.

In fact it feels even more empowering in some ways because i am choose to live this way, i love what i do, i get to choose, and no matter what my choice it is honored.
__________________

ETA Maybe this is my kink?

[The_Lady_Snow]

I hear and get your choice.


Your choices differ from mine.


When I speak of racism when it comes to The Cleavers, I have to, it's a kick to the gut when someone wants to hold you up to something you will never be.

(not saying dee is)

So when I bring up race, culture I do because it's part of my everyday function as Snow the Latina.

:)

[The_Lady_Snow]

I thought of getting some ink, and I was discussing it with my Pack and I shared what I was thinking.

http://www.malcontents.com/wp-content/gallery/art/joker-and-harley-quinn.jpg


Months passed by and on Friday Worm comes to me and says:

"I've been thinking about you Joker tattoo and then I realized you could NEVER (he used quotation marks when saying never) EVER be Harley Quinn."


I was like oh?

"Nope, I am pretty "SURE" you can't and let me tell you why"

I sat quietly and waited....

I've gone through this with my kids before so it happens.


He reminds me that no only am I "Mexican" I was not "Blonde" I did not have "Straight Hair" then he went on this description of my hair.

I was like.

I can be Harley Quinn if I fucking want Worm, because it's Halloween.

He walked away and I started having this long and deep discussion about that AHA moment with a few other people.


I can role play somethings, I can pretend to be something, but somethings. I will never be able to be.

He's right.

[girl_dee]

Yes and i hadn't read your post before i posted mine. i just did.

Thanks for the reminder because in my world/skin it's easy to forget.

i've been thinking lots about this since this thread started. Thanks for that!

[aishah]

When I speak of racism when it comes to The Cleavers, I have to, it's a kick to the gut when someone wants to hold you up to something you will never be.

this, for me, is the biggest kicker. the fact that non-white women are held to this standard when it is something that we could not and never could have met - and it's really a double bind because the system is set up specifically to deny us ever having the possibility of being like june cleaver. during this time period native & black women were also being sterilized by the state, as were disabled women, and our children were forcibly taken from us and sent to boarding schools for forced assimilation or adopted out to white families.

[girl_dee]

I thought of getting some ink, and I was discussing it with my Pack and I shared what I was thinking.

http://www.malcontents.com/wp-content/gallery/art/joker-and-harley-quinn.jpg


Months passed by and on Friday Worm comes to me and says:

"I've been thinking about you Joker tattoo and then I realized you could NEVER (he used quotation marks when saying never) EVER be Harley Quinn."


I was like oh?

"Nope, I am pretty "SURE" you can't and let me tell you why"

I sat quietly and waited....

I've gone through this with my kids before so it happens.


He reminds me that no only am I "Mexican" I was not "Blonde" I did not have "Straight Hair" then he went on this description of my hair.

I was like.

I can be Harley Quinn if I fucking want Worm, because it's Halloween.

He walked away and I started having this long and deep discussion about that AHA moment with a few other people.


I can role play somethings, I can pretend to be something, but somethings. I will never be able to be.

He's right.


But do you want to be?

[The_Lady_Snow]

But do you want to be?


Laughs, well yeah sometimes I want to be white..


I would love to know what it feels like to sit at dinner with your guy and his cousin and not have some dick head look at you like you have boogers on your chin and ask you:

"So where are you from?"


I'd love to just be able to fucking appropriate Cinco De Mayo with my girlfriends, eat $1.00 tacos, drink some margaritas, SCREAM LOUDLY HAPPY CINCO DE DRINKO!


Sometimes, I do think about it and I want to be.


Then I think, don't be such a cunt Snow stop shitting on your people cause you want easy.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Do you ever want to be a woman of color?

[blush]

I wonder why we hold up a white male fantasy as any kind of definition of femme.

[blush]

Do you ever want to be a woman of color?

Yes. The actress from Modern Family, Claire Huxtable...

I'm jealous of the seemingly effortless power those women embody.

[girl_dee]

Do you ever want to be a woman of color?






nope. i like it easy. i am not proud of the suffering of others at the white man's hand, because i am white. i am ashamed actually, but wouldn't want to trade places with a person of color. i have always admired the power of Latina women. My Latina friend told me she would never marry a Latina man because they expected the women to do it all. My niece married a Latina man and his family was pretty much in shock when she expected him to help with the child raising and housework.

without doing the *my best friend is a POC* i will say...


i grew up with and have had lots of POC in my life. My best friend as a kid was Hector from Mexico. i often thought it was cool that his dad didn't do the disciplining, his mom did. They ate cool food and gave me my first taco. i learned what home made tortillas were and he learned what a beignet was. i also knew that no matter how little we had, they had less. Our moms were best friends and we would go to the church to pick up boxes of food for them. i knew then i was lucky to be who i was. Privilege without realizing what it was.

Growing up people i worked and played with were mostly POC, and some people from Cuba, Guatemala, Mexico and Honduras, then when the Vietnam was over we received thousands of Vietnamese folks in our area. Thinking about it i think we were the only white folks in the neighborhood. Hearing their stories of what real struggle is all about, and not even hitting the tip of the iceberg of what their life is like, has always made me grateful to be born on an easier route in life.

When i was a kid i didn't feel much different from them, we were all just trying to survive, but now i know we are worlds apart. The only thing we really had in common was we lived in a poor neighborhood and didn't have much in the world.

Actually until it was pointed out to me (much on this site) i honestly denied my privilege.

i am now in Canada where i have seen about two POC since i got here. Quite a contrast from where i am from. i am so glad i grew up where i did in a way because i was exposed to all different people my entire life.

[girl_dee]

PS i love the tattoo art

[Nomad]

Do you ever want to be a woman of color?

going out on my limb---

when i went to live with my parents, one of the things my mom told me was that i could be anything i wanted to be. (she was white so she had the luxury of telling me that)

i told her i wanted to be a hummingbird or a dragonfly.

it took her a week to drum up the stones to explain that i couldnt be either and i was truly heartbroken because being human isnt the end all and be all to me. frankly, there are times i could give two f*cks about being human at all. she told me, in a nutshell, that i had to limit myself to human being things.

sometime after that someone asked me what i wanted "to be" when i grew up and i said i wanted to be like Mrs Prejean (a teacher at my school). he said, 'oh you want to be a teacher!' and i said, 'no, i want to be a ballerina and a botanist but i want to look like Mrs Prejean because she's the smartest and prettiest lady i know.' so my 6-year old shit hits this guy's fan because Mrs Prejean isnt white.

when i think about her now, through that 6-year old's eyes, she may still be the smartest and prettiest lady i know. the 49-year old remembers her as the person who told my parents i needed glasses and the person who let me read ahead rather than making me wait for the rest of the class and the person who cleaned me up when someone's belligerent, alcoholic father scared the piss out of me (literally) on the playground.

stupid kid story. yeah. i know. do i want to be a woman of color now? WANT? no. i'm too steeped in my privilege. f*ck i dont even know how much privilege i have. but my heart says i'd rather be Mrs Prejean than June Cleaver any day. Mrs Prejean was real.

[princessbelle]

I wonder why we hold up a white male fantasy as any kind of definition of femme.

Oh this is such a good post!!!

Yes. The actress from Modern Family, Claire Huxtable...

I'm jealous of the seemingly effortless power those women embody.

Wasn't she magnificent? She was such strong woman, and wow could she handle those kids.

Plus i always wished i had been a lawyer. But, even in my day (80s) going into nursing school was more "acceptable" than law school down in these parts and in my own family. Now, don't get me wrong, i love being a nurse, but if i had really truly had a choice? Not so sure i would have picked nursing over law.

But, at least my generation had a choice to even have a career, unlike my mother's generation....

And...

I have a strong wish or more of a "will" i'd say, that the youg'ens growing up today will not have to choose a career path that leads them to what is acceptable, but to become anything...their hearts desire..

[Nomad]

Actually until it was pointed out to me (much on this site) i honestly denied my privilege.


ditto

i didnt even know i had privilege until i was in my 30s and after that i squirmed around the topic for a good 5 years because i confused the fact of my privilege with being actively engaged in discrimination. i compared who i was to the racist neighbors we had when i was in high school who were more than happy to exclude us from block parties and etc because my mom's last husband wasnt white. i didnt get it. it was totally asinine behavior that made no sense to me and i couldnt identify with people i openly despised.

:thud:

embarrasses me now.

[girl_dee]

Sharing is caring.

This is me with my brother. Nope we don't look alike because he is my half-brother from another father.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/391_502559839767923_1187270942_n.jpg

Here's me, full submissive pose, (heh) with my brother helping me tie on my kerchief. This set came with all the things little girls played with in my day, a brook, a dustmop and play dishes.

A couple of years later, i wanted to be a pilot. i got a Barbie airplane as i was fascinated with planes. i wanted to pretend to fly the damn thing. Only when i got it, the man pilot was painted in the cockpit and Barbie was to serve the beverages.

http://i.oodleimg.com/item/3023582038u_1x424x360f?1340771690



i remember thinking, *oh yeah, i can't be a pilot, only men are pilots*

i am glad the kids of today have more options than we did, but we still have light years to go.

Not long ago i was ordering some kids toys, and there were these play sets for 6 year old.

The *boy* set contained a Firefighter hat, a Police Badge, and a hammer and drill.

The *girl* set contained a tiara, a play broom and plastic heels.

:|

Yup we still got a long way to go. i feel who we are as kids strongly molds who we are as adults. We cannot leave it up to the men out there to teach our young girls who and what they are destined to be.

[aishah]

i wanted to share something about why i personally find comparisons to june cleaver and the 50s upsetting.

i know one of the things people often say when this stuff comes up is, "well, it's just what i like! i shouldn't get a history lesson shoved down my throat every time i talk about it!"

to me, that is a function of privilege. to be able to look at the 50s and just focus on a relationship dynamic or on the fact that people supposedly had better manners then or whatever is a huge privilege.

when i look at the 50s i think about boarding schools, sterilization, institutionalization, and lynching, for starters. the only way i can wrap my head around being able to look at the 50s and think june cleaver is awesome and people were nicer and you don't need a history lesson is because...well...your family didn't go through that. or if you were in the 50s now you wouldn't be going through that. maybe i am totally off base.

the ability to willfully ignore that history is a function of privilege. and that's why, when people start romanticizing the 50s, history is brought up. because some of us don't have the luxury of thinking of the 50s out of the context of some really traumatic history. and that history continues to shape current oppressive policies and systems.

[princessbelle]

i wanted to share something about why i personally find comparisons to june cleaver and the 50s upsetting.

i know one of the things people often say when this stuff comes up is, "well, it's just what i like! i shouldn't get a history lesson shoved down my throat every time i talk about it!"

to me, that is a function of privilege. to be able to look at the 50s and just focus on a relationship dynamic or on the fact that people supposedly had better manners then or whatever is a huge privilege.

when i look at the 50s i think about boarding schools, sterilization, institutionalization, and lynching, for starters. the only way i can wrap my head around being able to look at the 50s and think june cleaver is awesome and people were nicer and you don't need a history lesson is because...well...your family didn't go through that. or if you were in the 50s now you wouldn't be going through that. maybe i am totally off base.

the ability to willfully ignore that history is a function of privilege. and that's why, when people start romanticizing the 50s, history is brought up. because some of us don't have the luxury of thinking of the 50s out of the context of some really traumatic history. and that history continues to shape current oppressive policies and systems.

Oh Aishah i love you girl did you know that!!!

You hit the nail on the head.

Also, we are making changes and clearing paths even if it is just with discussing things and opening up "minds" here and elsewhere. Just as the June Cleavers before us did, just as the next generation will continue to do.

[Nomad]

i wanted to share something about why i personally find comparisons to june cleaver and the 50s upsetting.

i know one of the things people often say when this stuff comes up is, "well, it's just what i like! i shouldn't get a history lesson shoved down my throat every time i talk about it!"

to me, that is a function of privilege. to be able to look at the 50s and just focus on a relationship dynamic or on the fact that people supposedly had better manners then or whatever is a huge privilege.

when i look at the 50s i think about boarding schools, sterilization, institutionalization, and lynching, for starters. the only way i can wrap my head around being able to look at the 50s and think june cleaver is awesome and people were nicer and you don't need a history lesson is because...well...your family didn't go through that. or if you were in the 50s now you wouldn't be going through that. maybe i am totally off base.

the ability to willfully ignore that history is a function of privilege. and that's why, when people start romanticizing the 50s, history is brought up. because some of us don't have the luxury of thinking of the 50s out of the context of some really traumatic history. and that history continues to shape current oppressive policies and systems.


okay. so i'm asking for a teaching moment.

what then do i do about my "lifestyle preference"? do i just shut up about it? i'm not being snarky. i honestly want to see options for altering my participation that do not deminish or negate the experiences of others. i dont personally romanticize the 50s. i've never referred to myself as June Cleaver. i dont give a rats ass about June Cleaver except as the representation of a cultural mindset that deserves to feel the full weight of its shame. if someone tried to make me into a 50s version of June Cleaver they would be deprived of my consent. the minute someone treats my service as an obligation my submission switch turns to OFF. i recognize my privilege. i GET TO say "no" and have it be ok. it's the luxury you say it is. i acknowledge it as such. i also acknowledge that i've stopped defending myself, my preferences, my "kink" and everything else that powers my panties, my heart, my ego and my general happiness. i have decades of shame, planted in childhood, around who i am and what i want. i'd like to think that i could take defending myself off the table when i'm having a discussion about an issue that touches on my identity performance. let me be clear, i do not feel attacked or disrespected. i do not feel disrespect toward anyone participating in this discussion. i feel curiosity and interest and a some pain at reading about the experiences i dont have to cope with and i feel a sincere desire to open up my head about the way i communicate and engage in respectful dialogue with people who do and dont share my privilege.

do you have the energy (and you dont have to) to help me out with ways of participating from an authentic and honest place without derailing this amazing conversation? i have no desire to come from a "i''m so misunderstood" place and i do not identify with June Cleaver as a role model or hold her up as one for others. June Cleaver aint Femme. June Cleaver is an illusion that contributed to both the active and passive marginalization OF A LOT OF PEOPLE, not all of them women. i dont have a single solitary cell in me that wants to be her. but i am a service oriented submissive and the language available to me, at a certain less aware time in my life, was the "50s lifestyle" label. i guess i fixated on the word "lifestyle" as the indication that there was something there that should imply illusution, namely because i dont have a lifestyle. i have a life. so anything i do in that LIFE that is mimicry of the 50s (or anything else i might use to fill in the blanks when describing myself) is MY version of myself, not someone elses. i'm not diminished by someone who might see me as less than themselves. that says something about them, not about me. but again, i'm coming from a place of privilege and i know that. i have the luxury of standing that ground with some attitude. but i would like to stand that ground as an individual rather than as a stereotype and i would like to back other people up when they stand their ground, whatever that ground may be. i would like to know ways of authentically and honestly participating in this discussion, coming from my own place, without having that place be perceived as romanticization of the 50s or a purposeful negation of the expression and experiences of others.

June Cleaver aint Femme. June Cleaver aint shit. this discussion, right here, THIS is Femme.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Nomad, I feel the irritation, anger, dismissal when June Cleaver is held as a Femme role model. It's not the kink/dynamics/role playing that is the issue.

[Nomad]

Nomad, I feel the irritation, anger, dismissal when June Cleaver is held as a Femme role model. It's not the kink/dynamics/role playing that is the issue.

(nodding --- thinking --- nodding --- thinking harder)

ow. my brain. ow.

[princessbelle]

I know you didn't ask me Nomad but i'm going to still tell you my view since i agree with Aishah....

From MY viewpoint, i only get my panties twirling when someone says something like...

"The 50s were the best era we ever had"
"We don't have manners now like we did in the 50s"
"I wish we could go back and have lives like we did in the 50s"
"June Cleaver was the perfect femme"

On the flip side if someone says...

"I enjoy living my life as June Cleaver"
"I want my partner to be just like June Cleaver"
"I love being a housewife"

I have no problem with that whatsoever. Gosh, why would i even care? To each his/hys/her own.

I don't care how anyone lives their life. The difference is ...we have choices as to how to live our lives in 2012. Thanks to the women before us. The ones that stood up for women and women's rights and minority rights and and and... We didn't in the 1950s

There is a difference here. One that i have been not great, evidently, of conveying.

Not sure i still am. Just don't know how to explain it any better.

[Sachita]

Holy heck i am cross posting on the Planet.

i realized i probably should have posted this here!





i think for some people, possibly myself included, we don't feel that we are whitewashing history by adopting certain behaviors from that time period.

i get that women had no rights, i get that women were stripped of our dreams, hopes and the right to live in our own skin. Hell as an adult i was told i made less money than my male co-worker because he had a high house note to pay. We did the exact same job, only i did mine more efficiently.

By me choosing to embrace being a home maker doesn't by any stretch mean that i do not get and honor that time period and the struggles we still go through.

In fact it feels even more empowering in some ways because i am choose to live this way, i love what i do, i get to choose, and no matter what my choice it is honored.
__________________

ETA Maybe this is my kink?


I understand choice. I don't understand any type of support for discrimination..... however,

I always viewed the adoption of such things more as a type of fetishism. Fetish doesn't have to be tangible, although can be. It's a set of behaviors, rituals and maybe "things" that unlock a desired state of being or passionate response. Ain't nothing wrong with this or role-play for that matter. It becomes empowering because YOU own it, it doesn't own you or dictate rules.

I think June Clever was a hardcore female supremacist who made her husband wear panties under his suit. She used her feminine magic to subliminally control her family. She also cuckolded her husband by having a beautiful black man at her disposal. This is why she was always happy and smiling.

[aishah]

nomad, i can't tell you what you should do. i can tell you what i try to do in my own life. i can tell you some of how i think things could go differently in these kinds of conversations (having seen at least 3 of them here on the planet and a few elsewhere).

please forgive me because i'm having trouble getting across really what i want to express in a clear and concise way. so i'm hoping that this will at least...paint something of a picture. i just don't have the right words. and this might get super long.

in my own life, i try to actively interrogate my desires and figure out where my desires and choices are coming from. i'm not implying that anyone here hasn't done that - i'm sure you and others have. for me that's a big part of how i come to characterize what i desire and what i love doing and what my role is. some things i've become conscious of - i tend to end up with straight bio-men a lot and i think some of that is because of internalized homophobia and because of the fact that i often pass as straight/have mad femme invisibility going on. i also tend to end up with white people a lot and i have recognized that maybe some of that is internalized racism and colonialism on my part. the more i interrogate those things in my own life, i see new worlds opening up to me - both in terms of externally how i interact and internally with my self-awareness. when i first became involved in bdsm, i identified very strongly with the term "slave," and as i came to interrogate how i felt about that, i personally chose to stop using that term because it squicked me out. as a person with a disability, i try to actively be conscious about who i'm dating and what the privileges are around ability, and especially to not unconsciously isolate people who have more access needs or more advanced disabilities from my life as dating partners. because most of the dating scene self-selects for people who are more able-bodied. same goes for beauty/appearance. when i am in power exchange relationships, i am much more aware now of the ways in which privilege affects power dynamics - like, for me as an indigenous disabled woman to submit to an able-bodied white male doesn't come without a lot of (usually unexamined) baggage. doesn't mean i never play with able-bodied white men (though i have many friends who choose not to) but as i've interrogated these issues more and more over time and examined what the dynamics look like, i've been more able to recognize and address the ways that my relationships replicate patterns of privilege and oppression that are really harmful.

those are some examples of how i practice interrogating my own desires and trying to root out how privilege and oppression shape my desires.

what i wish would be different when people start talking about service submission is - i wish we could leave the goddamned 1950s out of it. or at least, if we are going to mention the 1950s at all, to do so with a framework that is critical and takes into account the whole and complex history, not just the upper class white people history. i wish people wouldn't say things like "people had much better manners then!" "those were the good old days!" i love baking and cooking and cleaning. i love homemaking. if i weren't poor and if i could have kids, i'd probably be a very happy homemaker. but i don't need to look at the 1950s and idealize the 1950s - and i can't idealize them for many reasons i've already said. there are a LOT of ways to characterize service submission without deferring to a time period that was even more overtly pervaded with white supremacy, ableism, colonialism, and misogyny/partriarchy than the time period we live in now. and honestly, i think it's a good idea for people who are into service submission to interrogate how patriarchy and other issues have shaped their desires, but that's just me. i wish that people - and not just me and snow (and i am super grateful for folks like belle and bully who speak up on these threads too) would speak up and say that the 1950s should NOT be the yardstick by which we talk about service submission. or homemaking. because that's whitewashing and it's oppressive and it's a million different kinds of fucked up. i wish we would get the categories changed on sites like collarme where "1950s lifestyle" is something you can choose as a kink. because the things that non-white and poor people went through in the 50s are not kinks. they are crimes against humanity. i wish i could go to a munch and not be the only non-white, non-upper class person in the room and not have to sit through discussions on how awesome the 1950s lifestyle is and not feel excluded because i don't live a very heteronormative life.

i wish - and i don't want to say this in a directive way or offend anyone by saying this - but i really wish that people would not say "oh, i love the june cleaver lifestyle!" or "oh, i love a femme who loves the june cleaver lifestyle!" i can't explain to you why it hurts more to see a butch write that, because i'm attracted to both butches and femmes, but it hurts me when butches and transguys point to straight women and call them femmes or speak of them as femme icons or say that they want a femme who does those things. i don't want to be compared to june cleaver. maybe i should just be grateful that it's a good way to weed people out - like - i guess i can assume we won't see eye to eye so i might as well not bother pursuing anything with someone if they think that way. but it sucks to come here and read posts like that. it makes me feel disrespected as a femme. (your mileage may vary and i'm not saying everyone needs to do what i want - i'm just saying - that's how it makes me feel. ~ edited to add: i think part of this for me is that i'm squicked anytime someone says stuff like that...like...i don't want to be compared to angelina jolie anymore than i want to be compared to june cleaver. i want someone to want -me.- for who -i- am.)

i wish that we could have these conversations without people saying things about feeling policed when poc bring up issues of privilege and oppression. i'm not sure if there is something that i could do differently as far as how i respond to posts to make people feel less attacked or policed - or if it is just another replication of the fucked up "scary woman of color" derail all over again. but i wish we could address issues of privilege and oppression without anyone feeling silenced.

i am so, so, so very happy that people are able to look at things and make choices about what they want and choose certain ways of being without feeling coerced. i remember when i covered for several years that for me that was a huge part of my decision - for me covering wasn't heteronormative because it was claiming my identity as a queer muslim woman. it was coming home to myself and my body. BUT...i also had to interrogate the privileges i had to make that choice without feeling coerced, and the fact that i made that choice with less or different kinds of baggage/history attached to covering than many women who were raised muslim or from other countries. i had to interrogate the fact that that decision is tied to a patriarchal history even though women of all backgrounds now do their best to make free decisions themselves to cover. i had to interrogate the fact that as a lightskinned u.s. citizen, for me to wear a headscarf or a face veil would be a totally different experience than perhaps that of an immigrant with darker skin. perhaps that is a good parallel to this situation. i am so, so happy that there are people who can freely make the choice to live a lifestyle of service submission. but i think that it is good to be conscious and critical and investigate (especially when the 1950s are brought up) all of the things that tie into that, historically and presently, particularly race, class and ability issues.

[easygoingfemme]

I thought it might be a good time for a little history lesson field trip :nerd:

It was touch on earlier, how the attitude towards women of the 50s was in many ways a backlash to the independence and power that women held in the 40s. I was doing a little research on this today and found some fun videos that show the transition from women in the work force during the war, to how they were viewed by men when they came home from war and the women still wanted to work.

Starting with a rather cheesy but telling portrayal of how women's work was valued, respected, and needed in the 40s
9GarCzR_6Ng

Then an interesting radio interview with an unmarried woman who wanted to continue on her career path post WWII:
BA3uryDJzI0

And then, the short film, The Trouble with Women. Which is interesting because it shows the direct management attitude that I'm sure most women face when remaining in the work force, but also his rather radical supervisor who is standing up for the women...

j8ADfS8WQmw

[tantalizingfemme]

I wanted to be like:

Catwoman
The Bionic Woman
Daisy Duke
Laura Ingalls Wilder
Lucy
Mary Tyler Moore
Claire Huxtable
Mrs Walton
Eva Gabor on Green Acres
And June Cleaver

Why?

Catwoman - I loved her outfit and she kicked ass....
The Bionic Woman - She was strong and The Bionic Man liked her (Plus there was cool music when she did stuff)
Daisy Duke - All the boys liked her
Lucy - She was funny and when she cried, she made a funny face and was loud.
Mary Tyler Moore - I wanted to twirl and throw my hat just like her, and I loved her apartment
Claire Huxtable - She was beautiful, smart, she loved her family, her husband adored her and I loved how she dressed.
Mrs. Walton - She was kind and understanding, she was patient and loving
Eva Gabor (Lisa) - I loved her accent, clothes and craziness. And, her husband adored her.

And June Cleaver - She had it all together. She made sure her family had breakfast in the morning, she always looked nice, her focus was on her family and making sure everyone was taken care of.

And me: I am a culmination of all and more. I never saw June as the ideal Femme, I saw her as the ideal Mom and wife when I was young.

I grew up in a two parent household - my father worked and my mother stayed home with us; the neighborhood I grew up in, this was the the norm. My mother had dinner on the table every night for my Dad and did all of the house chores and laundry and such. My dad mowed the lawn, cleaned the pool and barbecued.

I love the idea that cooking, cleaning and doing laundry can make everyone so happy. I mean, isn't that what the idea was? I really am drawn to this. As a kid I saw this as being part of a happy household and as an adult, I feel a sense of satisfaction knowing that all of the basic needs for those I love are met. Is this the only way I get satisfied in life? Not by a long shot, but it is quick and easy the the results are fast. :)

I would have, and still would LOVE to be a stay at home partner; I really would. Do I believe that it would totally satisfy me, no. But I do know that I would find enjoyment in it. I also am going to be honest and say that this most likely has to do with the fact that I have been working since I was 15 and a single parent for 18+ years and have not had anything close to the June Cleaver life. Maybe it is just the case of "the grass is always greener on the other side of the septic tank"... (I do so love Erma Bombeck)

So anyway.....for me, if someone chooses to be June... enjoy, I support you. Someone saying they love that or hate that doesn't affect me personally... that is their ideal, and their ideal isn't my ideal, even if it is similar. I am a third wave feminist... your choice makes me happy, as long as you don't impose your choices on me.


TF :)


PS:
I want to change gearsfor a second and address something brought up that I absolutely abhor (which has been mentioned in numerous other posts) is the "ideal femme" represented by a straight woman. (This is not about behaviors because I don't see behaviors as straight or femme or queer or alien, I see it is a person's behavior)... I am talking about the ideal femme's appearance being represented by pictures of straight women. WTF!!!! I find this so insultingthat it makes me have that little gaggy feeling in my throat. The thread on the site (I can't remember the name) is chock full of pictures of mostly straight women and it feels like a slap in the face...and to add insult to injury is the ooohing and aaaahing and she is so hot..... blech. I couldn't imagine a thread for femmes to celebrate butches/Ftm's, etc....filled with pictures of shirtless straight male models and actors and then femmes coming in and talking how hot their chests are and the rock hard abs blah blah blah.

ok rant over....

[The_Lady_Snow]

Isn't it gross how they asked her about romance novels? Would anyone ever ask these questions of a man?? How about when they guys analyzed her like she as a lab rat?

UGH!

The second film it drives me nuts how the woman (sitting) plays dumb:|

[femmsational]

I wish I had speakers

[girl_dee]

"how confident are you in dealings with your superiors?"

= all the men

[blush]

okay. so i'm asking for a teaching moment.

what then do i do about my "lifestyle preference"? do i just shut up about it? i'm not being snarky. i honestly want to see options for altering my participation that do not deminish or negate the experiences of others. i dont personally romanticize the 50s. i've never referred to myself as June Cleaver. i dont give a rats ass about June Cleaver except as the representation of a cultural mindset that deserves to feel the full weight of its shame. if someone tried to make me into a 50s version of June Cleaver they would be deprived of my consent. the minute someone treats my service as an obligation my submission switch turns to OFF. i recognize my privilege. i GET TO say "no" and have it be ok. it's the luxury you say it is. i acknowledge it as such. i also acknowledge that i've stopped defending myself, my preferences, my "kink" and everything else that powers my panties, my heart, my ego and my general happiness. i have decades of shame, planted in childhood, around who i am and what i want. i'd like to think that i could take defending myself off the table when i'm having a discussion about an issue that touches on my identity performance. let me be clear, i do not feel attacked or disrespected. i do not feel disrespect toward anyone participating in this discussion. i feel curiosity and interest and a some pain at reading about the experiences i dont have to cope with and i feel a sincere desire to open up my head about the way i communicate and engage in respectful dialogue with people who do and dont share my privilege.

do you have the energy (and you dont have to) to help me out with ways of participating from an authentic and honest place without derailing this amazing conversation? i have no desire to come from a "i''m so misunderstood" place and i do not identify with June Cleaver as a role model or hold her up as one for others. June Cleaver aint Femme. June Cleaver is an illusion that contributed to both the active and passive marginalization OF A LOT OF PEOPLE, not all of them women. i dont have a single solitary cell in me that wants to be her. but i am a service oriented submissive and the language available to me, at a certain less aware time in my life, was the "50s lifestyle" label. i guess i fixated on the word "lifestyle" as the indication that there was something there that should imply illusution, namely because i dont have a lifestyle. i have a life. so anything i do in that LIFE that is mimicry of the 50s (or anything else i might use to fill in the blanks when describing myself) is MY version of myself, not someone elses. i'm not diminished by someone who might see me as less than themselves. that says something about them, not about me. but again, i'm coming from a place of privilege and i know that. i have the luxury of standing that ground with some attitude. but i would like to stand that ground as an individual rather than as a stereotype and i would like to back other people up when they stand their ground, whatever that ground may be. i would like to know ways of authentically and honestly participating in this discussion, coming from my own place, without having that place be perceived as romanticization of the 50s or a purposeful negation of the expression and experiences of others.

June Cleaver aint Femme. June Cleaver aint shit. this discussion, right here, THIS is Femme.
Do you have the time, interest, and desire to explore this topic and do your own thinking/research? Or do you expect others to do it for you?

It sounds like you come from an honest place and other viewpoints are always helpful, but really, the hard work has to come from you. It can be an exhausting expectation for others to educate you.

[Julie]

Do you have the time, interest, and desire to explore this topic and do your own thinking/research? Or do you expect others to do it for you?

It sounds like you come from an honest place and other viewpoints are always helpful, but really, the hard work has to come from you. It can be an exhausting expectation for others to educate you.


Your last paragraph really makes me sad. I don't believe she is expecting you/us to teach her, she is asking for guidance and perhaps maybe a bit of understanding of where she is coming from.

What has happened that we forget, that once we had mentors and teachers, those same people who before us were/are femme's. Were it not for all those beautiful Femme's guiding me, I might still be stuck 30 years ago.

The only message you have conveyed is shame. And that's really sad. Especially coming from another Femme. How's 50's and ironic.
Julie

[blush]

Your last paragraph really makes me sad. I don't believe she is expecting you/us to teach her, she is asking for guidance and perhaps maybe a bit of understanding of where she is coming from.

What has happened that we forget, that once we had mentors and teachers, those same people who before us were/are femme's. Were it not for all those beautiful Femme's guiding me, I might still be stuck 30 years ago.

The only message you have conveyed is shame. And that's really sad. Especially coming from another Femme. How's 50's and ironic.
Julie

Not shame, personal responsibility. As I said in my post, I think nomad comes from an honest place. I know our femme community will lead in that direction because that's how we roll. Teaching and mentoring is not a passive sport, and requesting a community to "educate/guide you" on issues comes with expectations. Why shouldn't it?

[Julie]

Not shame, personal responsibility. As I said in my post, I think nomad comes from an honest place. I know our femme community will lead in that direction because that's how we roll. Teaching and mentoring is not a passive sport, and requesting a community to "educate/guide you" on issues comes with expectations. Why shouldn't it?

You and I simply see things differently. I read your tone as being sharp and with a lack of empathy.

We also see teaching/mentoring quite different. For me, it is part of life and part of my responsibility as a Femme/Person - for you, it is a sport. I understand now, where your sharpness comes from.

[aishah]

from my previous interactions with nomad, i have the basic assumption that she explores this stuff on her own as well as through here. i could be wrong. i don't mind being asked to elaborate (especially with the caveat that she doesn't expect me to - i didn't feel pressured by her post as i have in other conversations here about education).

the only thing i found difficult was the phrasing of "tell me what to do" - i think, especially when oppression issues come up, people want to be told what to do. i know i definitely experience that sometimes. the idea that there's an easy answer and or a rulebook or something. unfortunately, usually, there isn't, and i don't think anyone wants to (or should) be in the position of telling others what to do. life just doesn't work that way - you have to fuck up and learn on your own. but i can share what's worked for me in my own experience. that doesn't mean it'll work for everyone.

[Julie]

I agree aishah... It was a trigger for me as well (Tell me what to do) and I stopped myself from reacting. Oftentimes we pick phrases/words from a post (especially a long post) and skim the rest.

You obviously in your life have mentored.

Julie

[The_Lady_Snow]

I've been thinking about this a lot, I was wondering. How do we (Femmes) stop, handle, fight against the June Cleaver comparison? How do we stop it from happening within our own community?

(What I mean by this, when someone references the "Cleaver" way being the right way, the superior way)


How does that affect you internally as a Femme?


Does it hurt your feelings? Do you get defensive?


Curious.


(I am not talking about those who choose the dynamics and enjoy being caregivers, caretakers, stay at home wives etc)

[Chancie]

Nomad, I don't have the extra long post gene, so my responses can seem terse, but I def don't mean to be curt.

For me, using 'June Cleaver' as a gender marker is the whole problem, not the desire to cook, or iron, or be an excellent homemaker. She represents a female persona and an era that was terrible for a lot of people, whether or not we choose to ignore history and context.

[Chancie]

I've been thinking about this a lot, I was wondering. How do we (Femmes) stop, handle, fight against the June Cleaver comparison? How do we stop it from happening within our own community?

(What I mean by this, when someone references the "Cleaver" way being the right way, the superior way)

How does that affect you internally as a Femme?

Does it hurt your feelings? Do you get defensive?

Curious.

(I am not talking about those who choose the dynamics and enjoy being caregivers, caretakers, stay at home wives etc)

Because I do like to take care of and fuss over Pete, and because I like to be the girl who bought the best present for a little girl, and because I like to bring the best treats to pot lucks, not because I am a femme, but because I am ChanciePants, I feel silenced and alienated when other femmes say they aspire to being, not modern but old fashioned June Cleavers. I think, Oh, very nice if you're pretty, thin, middle class and white, and not a feminist. I feel like they aggressively choose to dismiss feminism and women's rights.

[princessbelle]

I've been thinking about this a lot, I was wondering. How do we (Femmes) stop, handle, fight against the June Cleaver comparison? How do we stop it from happening within our own community?
(What I mean by this, when someone references the "Cleaver" way being the right way, the superior way)



I suppose just keep fighting it. Call it out when we see it over and over and over.




How does that affect you internally as a Femme?


Does it hurt your feelings? Do you get defensive?


Curious.


(I am not talking about those who choose the dynamics and enjoy being caregivers, caretakers, stay at home wives etc)



That's interesting because after thinking about it, i do both...

When i hear it from the femme folks, it makes me feel sad and sorta hurts my feelers i guess. I want to reach out and find out how anyone could think this era of time could be a good thing. It boggles my mind.

But, i'll be completely honest here, when i hear it from masculine folk? I get VERY defensive....and i don't really know why i feel this way...I want to scream, levitate, spew green fluid from my nostrils and bite the head off of a bat.

Not sure why it spurs different feelings depending on who i hear it from. I'll have to think on that.

[Julie]

I've been thinking about this a lot, I was wondering. How do we (Femmes) stop, handle, fight against the June Cleaver comparison? How do we stop it from happening within our own community?

I do not believe it is our right to STOP anyone from professing their desires (June or Not) or living their lives. I think it is important that we as Femme's talk about this. I remember when my kids were little. I was open with them and I asked Peter (pediatrician) how much information can I give them. And he said... Give them everything, they will absorb what they can handle and in the hand, be healthier adults. I think the same is true for us as adults. If we keep on talking about it - Then we will open the eyes of some and they will in turn do the same. It only can have a positive effect.

(What I mean by this, when someone references the "Cleaver" way being the right way, the superior way)

My initial reaction is to get defensive and chew them up. That is how I react to most things. I am trying to find a different way (this time around on the planet).

How does that affect you internally as a Femme?

It doesn't affect me as a Femme. I worry that it will affect younger Femme's and perhaps fill them with shame on how they live their lives. So, I as a Femme choose to educate.

Does it hurt your feelings? Do you get defensive?

No, it just makes me sad for those who believe their self worth is to serve (not kink) and encourage and empower the thought of a patriarchy.


Curious.

(I am not talking about those who choose the dynamics and enjoy being caregivers, caretakers, stay at home wives etc)

I just wish we could be kinder and not so condescending to those around us and receive the same. All this creates is shame.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I've been thinking about this a lot, I was wondering. How do we (Femmes) stop, handle, fight against the June Cleaver comparison?

I think correction and insisting that comparing a group of people to one person, a character will work, it may be hard work but it will work. I also believe we can be more understanding and supportiveto desires/kinks/dynamics/choices.


How do we stop it from happening within our own community?


Speaking up, asking for clarification, making sure it's not coming from making it personal space.

(What I mean by this, when someone references the "Cleaver" way being the right way, the superior way)


How does that affect you internally as a Femme?


Sometimes I am like WTF, other times I am like whatever! Depends on the context.


Does it hurt your feelings? Sometimes

Do you get defensive?

I only feel defensive when people are coming from a place of being critical towards others choices, or when people try to hold *ALL* Femmes to a ridiculous standard


Curious.


(I am not talking about those who choose the dynamics and enjoy being caregivers, caretakers, stay at home wives etc)




I also thought about this last night before falling asleep. Service oriented submission isn't a 50's lifestyle it's service. I am coming from my Leather oriented space so when speaking of service nothing binary comes to mind in my thinking. Chores, tasks, markers aren't gender specific. My boys are going to do dishes as are my girls. I'm more like WTF when someone refers to service oriented BDSM/Kink/Leather as something from the 50's.

I hope that makes sense

[girl_dee]

I also thought about this last night before falling asleep. Service oriented submission isn't a 50's lifestyle it's service. I am coming from my Leather oriented space so when speaking of service nothing binary comes to mind in my thinking. Chores, tasks, markers aren't gender specific. My boys are going to do dishes as are my girls. I'm more like WTF when someone refers to service oriented BDSM/Kink/Leather as something from the 50's.

I hope that makes sense

i makes perfect sense to me. When i realized service oriented service was my "thing" not once did i ponder June Cleaver/ the struggles of women in the 50's. my thoughts were that after all these years i can finally have my passion, domestic service to a Master who appreciated me. i was not trying to relive the 50's, it just so happens that some things that i love doing is what women did in the 50's. i also love working at the clinic helping others, and it pays really well, that is equally as satisfying.

it does not feel like kink to me. It feels very natural and fluid. It's just how we live in this household. When i decided to stay on here at the farm, Syr said *the kitchen is yours, do what you want with it*.. it was AWESOME!

[JustJo]

I've been thinking about this a lot, I was wondering. How do we (Femmes) stop, handle, fight against the June Cleaver comparison? How do we stop it from happening within our own community?

(What I mean by this, when someone references the "Cleaver" way being the right way, the superior way)

I think it has to be called out....but I don't mean by attacking that person's point of view either. I think an awful lot of this is deeply ingrained stuff that people aren't thinking about....just reacting. It's almost like that unconscious knee-jerk reaction.

Someone, and apologies that I can't find who, talked about the thread where butches (and others) post pics of women that they think are hot....and frequently call them "femme" even if they are straight women. They used the comparison of what would happen if femmes went into the thread of hot butches and posted pics of bio-men.

I imagine all hell would break loose.

For me, that's a clear-as-a-bell sign of an internalized double standard....and we need to be pointing that out to people, perhaps by giving them that very example as an illustration.

How does that affect you internally as a Femme?

It really doesn't for me....which sounds weird....but I have a high tolerance for shrugging off bullshit. :)

Does it hurt your feelings? Do you get defensive?


Mostly, it makes me sad that we haven't made more progress. I remember protesting for passage of the ERA....and I was YOUNG. Now I'm 50....and we're really not that far ahead of where we were then....and have a Republican presidential candidate in a frighteningly close race that would like to push us even farther backwards than I can even imagine.

I know this isn't a political thread....well kinda'.....but I wonder how much internalized hatred must a woman have to vote for Romney/Ryan. And, apologies if anyone on this site is planning to vote that way, but I seriously do wonder how someone can endorse someone that wants to make them a second-class citizen, or worse.Curious.


(I am not talking about those who choose the dynamics and enjoy being caregivers, caretakers, stay at home wives etc)

I found it interesting what you said about the Leather community Snow. I have no experience there, but it resonates with me that service is a very different thing, and not tied to gender.

In my perfect vision of the world, people get to do what they like and what they're good at, regardless of what's between their legs....and there isn't any judgement attached to it.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I found it interesting what you said about the Leather community Snow. I have no experience there, but it resonates with me that service is a very different thing, and not tied to gender.

In my perfect vision of the world, people get to do what they like and what they're good at, regardless of what's between their legs....and there isn't any judgement attached to it.



BAM!!!!


I love that Jo!

[Martina]

Is any of that real content about gender?

wanting to devote your time and energy to pleasing another
enjoying domestic chores (if only for the beloved other)
being available to nurture, support, or instruct


The part that is gender specific other than the clothes is grooving upon the power dynamics embedded in gender. That is kink. Fetish. Whatever you want to call it.

I can get hot because the person I am with is butch. I can get hot because the person I am with has power. I do not conflate the two. It does not get me extra wet BECAUSE a masculine person has power over my more feminine self. Or it has like twice. It's not my kink. But it's a kink. And as such I respect it.

But bringing the conflation of power inequity with gender roles into the world as a "natural" way of relating -- that is sexism. Talking about women's roles and butches or masculine ID'd people's roles as if they are real things. Um no.

I was briefly with someone who had those ideas. We had been friends first and equals. I was shocked when it all came up in D/s. Stupid me. The fact is he no longer respected me as much the minute I went down for him. In his mind, bringing together power exchange with traditional gender roles MEANT disrespecting women. And that is what it has traditionally meant. I have an Egyptian friend who swears no, no, it's separate spheres, and both are respected. To which I say bullshit.

[Nomad]

Do you have the time, interest, and desire to explore this topic and do your own thinking/research? Or do you expect others to do it for you?

It sounds like you come from an honest place and other viewpoints are always helpful, but really, the hard work has to come from you. It can be an exhausting expectation for others to educate you.

i am going to reply to this privately. i see no reason to derail this thread with my response.


from my previous interactions with nomad, i have the basic assumption that she explores this stuff on her own as well as through here. i could be wrong. i don't mind being asked to elaborate (especially with the caveat that she doesn't expect me to - i didn't feel pressured by her post as i have in other conversations here about education).

the only thing i found difficult was the phrasing of "tell me what to do" - i think, especially when oppression issues come up, people want to be told what to do. i know i definitely experience that sometimes. the idea that there's an easy answer and or a rulebook or something. unfortunately, usually, there isn't, and i don't think anyone wants to (or should) be in the position of telling others what to do. life just doesn't work that way - you have to fuck up and learn on your own. but i can share what's worked for me in my own experience. that doesn't mean it'll work for everyone.

I agree aishah... It was a trigger for me as well (Tell me what to do) and I stopped myself from reacting. Oftentimes we pick phrases/words from a post (especially a long post) and skim the rest.

You obviously in your life have mentored.

Julie

forgive me if i'm seriously blind but i cant find any such phrase in my post. at no time do i say "tell me what to do" that i can see. i said "what then do i do about...." which is, perhaps, an old-fashioned way of speaking but in no way is meant to suggest that i'd like to be told what to do so that i dont have to think of one myself. i was asking what ideas other people might have for participating in the discussion without coming from an othering or offensive place.

[Julie]

i am going to reply to this privately. i see no reason to derail this thread with my response.


forgive me if i'm seriously blind but i cant find any such phrase in my post. at no time do i say "tell me what to do" that i can see. i said "what then do i do about...." which is, perhaps, an old-fashioned way of speaking but in no way is meant to suggest that i'd like to be told what to do so that i dont have to think of one myself. i was asking what ideas other people might have for participating in the discussion without coming from an othering or offensive place.

My apologies for paraphrasing -- what then do i do about my "lifestyle preference?"

:|

[aishah]

My apologies for paraphrasing -- what then do i do about my "lifestyle preference?"

:|

i interpreted that in the same way - nomad, i apologize if i misinterpreted what you meant. :rrose:

[The_Lady_Snow]

Is any of that real content about gender?

wanting to devote your time and energy to pleasing another
enjoying domestic chores (if only for the beloved other)
being available to nurture, support, or instruct


The part that is gender specific other than the clothes is grooving upon the power dynamics embedded in gender. That is kink. Fetish. Whatever you want to call it.

I can get hot because the person I am with is butch. I can get hot because the person I am with has power. I do not conflate the two. It does not get me extra wet BECAUSE a masculine person has power over my more feminine self. Or it has like twice. It's not my kink. But it's a kink. And as such I respect it.

But bringing the conflation of power inequity with gender roles into the world as a "natural" way of relating -- that is sexism. Talking about women's roles and butches or masculine ID'd people's roles as if they are real things. Um no.

I was briefly with someone who had those ideas. We had been friends first and equals. I was shocked when it all came up in D/s. Stupid me. The fact is he no longer respected me as much the minute I went down for him. In his mind, bringing together power exchange with traditional gender roles MEANT disrespecting women. And that is what it has traditionally meant. I have an Egyptian friend who swears no, no, it's separate spheres, and both are respected. To which I say bullshit.



Who all here identifies with Femme as their gender?

[girl_dee]

Gender = femme

[aishah]

Who all here identifies with Femme as their gender?

me.

i agree with martina (i think) - the problem isn't the power dynamics. the problem is when gender becomes conflated with the power dynamics. especially when the genders and dynamics reflect wider systems of privilege/oppression.

[pinkgeek]

Who all here identifies with Femme as their gender?

I consider femme a part of my gender, but I balk against any one word encompassing me. I also don't care for boxes and labels which is what I feel like I get stuffed into when asked about my gender, presentation, etc. Maybe I'll go for fierce as my gender - that slides better under my skin.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Femme, though I did not come to adopt this until I was say like 29, I had a real hard time with it at first because deep down I knew I was. I still love my marker *Dyke* I am very proud of that identifier.


Femme felt very comfortable and it has a wondeful skin to grow into in my later age. If I could change my marker on my license it would be Womyn.

[JustJo]

Who all here identifies with Femme as their gender?

Not me....maybe it's coming out super late, but I still think of woman/female as my gender.

For me, gender has nothing to do with who I love or have sex with, or even how I live. For me, it's literally anatomical. I totally get that that's not the case for many people here....and that's all good in my book.

Femme, for me, is more about my sexuality.

[girl_dee]

I consider femme a part of my gender, but I balk against any one word encompassing me. I also don't care for boxes and labels which is what I feel like I get stuffed into when asked about my gender, presentation, etc. Maybe I'll go for fierce as my gender - that slides better under my skin.

i didn't realize it but i feel this way too.

i am just protective of my femme label.

[The_Lady_Snow]

me.

i agree with martina (i think) - the problem isn't the power dynamics. the problem is when gender becomes conflated with the power dynamics. especially when the genders and dynamics reflect wider systems of privilege/oppression.

I often forget about how others define gender and gender roles once I step out of my hoola hoop (ArweNism).

So the dynamics for me still stay the same.


I'm the boss.

I do love to do laundry, I have only one man cub left and it's nicer to only have him. I don't miss the older cubs because well they are grown. So when tantalizing spoke of Ms Cleaver in the mother hood role I was like, HEY I GET THAT!

It was interesting cause I got a lil giddy, connecting with her in that way. I loved loved loved being a Momma. Though in my house it was a Latino run house so the dynamics between the kids and I though very maternal and detail oriented (like Ms Cleaver) it was like I knew or had an example of when it came to Momma's.

So that got me to thinking how now as I am older, house stuff I no likey so much.

I will assist the boy, but it's different it's relaxing it's not so time consuming and I get to be the bad Momma and make Kraft Mac and cheese and the boy makes home made (fill in the blank).


I don't feel less than now, not like I did in my mid 20's. I believe it's the work I do and continue to do on me. OMG do I need a lot with all my RAWR RAWR RAWR and passion for things.

I can say when I am spoken to like I am stoopid or I am head patted it makes me boil, it's almost like wow where am I and it makes me laugh.


Thanks tantalizing for reminding me about the Momma part, that really got me to thinking a lot about gender *performance* and how only girls/women do dishes and boys/men work on cars.

I am glad I know about both.

[spritzerJ]

I've been thinking about this a lot, I was wondering. How do we (Femmes) stop, handle, fight against the June Cleaver comparison? How do we stop it from happening within our own community?

The June Cleaver comparison is just floats by me. I don't know why I just don't expect that folks would compare me to June. So I am not looking for it. Seriously I could miss a giant elephant in a room if I was focused on something else. And most days I focus on just being me, taking care of those I love, doing a good job and continuing to think for myself.

In our own community I think we start by examining ourselves, and when it comes up we question the person making a comparison. We listen to people define for themselves and emphasize that folks tell their own story. Create their own narratives and delineate between group, family and individual thinking and identity.

If it happened in my community, I'd emphasize individual choice. People need to be able to make their own choices. And I expect to be given that latitude. If it isn't given I assume it is and act that way. Maybe that is blind faith or ignorance. I am not a huge fighter and I don't give up.

(What I mean by this, when someone references the "Cleaver" way being the right way, the superior way)
I snort. Honestly I can not be expected to behave like a fictional TV character. I say that. The closest example I can come up with of this type of reference being stated as the right/superior way is my sister thinking I should stay home with The General, not date cause I've messed up relationships in the past. To this I say you do what is right for your family and I will do what is right for mine. I explain it as individual choice and how I won't be beholden to group think about my life.

How does that affect you internally as a Femme?
Honestly I question my self. Am I making the right choices for myself and my daughter. And if IF if I think that the effects are hard on my daughter (or my relationship) I do what I do... gather resources, research and get assistance. I accept my limits and don't let them turn me from my path.

Does it hurt your feelings? Do you get defensive?
Sure at times it does. Especially if people persist. Honestly people are usually surprised by my reaction of you go your way I'll go mine. and why would you box me in question? Folks honestly don't think their statements through.
I get defensive when the assumptions come from inside my community. Yet I am learning, like any community, I speak up for myself.

Curious.


(I am not talking about those who choose the dynamics and enjoy being caregivers, caretakers, stay at home wives etc)

In my life I choose to be a working woman. I am a mom who balances leading, coaching and letting my daughter lead. I am submissive in the bedroom (90% of the time) and allow my natural mushy lovey girl side show for my sweetie. At work I am big on making peace, finding a shared focus but not just rolling over to the dominate way of being. I accept my dichotomies.

I enjoy entertaining, throwing a great birthday party and being a gracious host. Those are ways I show I care about people. That is as close to June Cleaver as I may get.

All and all I am just me. June Cleaver is just a TV show. The way culture, people, communities make her out to be some figure of femme perfection is a sad commentary on how easily some folks let their view of women and our world be distorted. And I won't be lazy about confronting that limited way of thinking.

At one time in my life, college, I swore off capri pants as I was certain I would not wear clothing that harkened the 50's view of women. I own many capri pants now. I like how I look in them.

As for do identify as Femme? I am still exploring. I think femme is the best expression of myself in dress, mannerisms and many parts of myself. I am still wrapping my mind around the whole "gender" thing.

[Julie]

I keep thinking about the question Snow posed: Is Femme your Gender?

I came out at 17 as Gay. I realized at 18 I was a Lesbian -- This was the 70's. My relationships were definitely gender misogynistic Butch/Femme relationships and I was clearly in Butch led relationships. I grew up!!!

I went through a feminist phase and retaliated against anything patriarchal and discovered once again, my Femme. I have held onto her and not let her go. Though, I did go through a Femme phase, where I didn't want to be classified as Femme, as the butches I knew (back then) thought the best Femme's were bimbo's. I couldn't play Bimbo Femme, even when I tried. However, I remained Femme.

I suppose Femme is my gender. I don't really connect with Lesbian, though I am and I (like Snow) hold onto my Dyke -- Being a Dyke is important to me. I am a Femme Dyke. And I am a Lesbian, in some odd sort of Sapphic historic way.

When I refer to myself, I am always Femme and sometimes Dyke. And definitely repeating myself... But I am processing this... It's been a long time for me since I came out. I haven't really ever had to analyze it, as I just did.

Signed Julie Femme Dyke who knows her Sapphic history.

[princessbelle]

I keep thinking about the question Snow posed: Is Femme your Gender?

I came out at 17 as Gay. I realized at 18 I was a Lesbian -- This was the 70's. My relationships were definitely gender misogynistic Butch/Femme relationships and I was clearly in Butch led relationships. I grew up!!!

I went through a feminist phase and retaliated against anything patriarchal and discovered once again, my Femme. I have held onto her and not let her go. Though, I did go through a Femme phase, where I didn't want to be classified as Femme, as the butches I knew (back then) thought the best Femme's were bimbo's. I couldn't play Bimbo Femme, even when I tried. However, I remained Femme.

I suppose Femme is my gender. I don't really connect with Lesbian, though I am and I (like Snow) hold onto my Dyke -- Being a Dyke is important to me. I am a Femme Dyke. And I am a Lesbian, in some odd sort of Sapphic historic way.

When I refer to myself, I am always Femme and sometimes Dyke. And definitely repeating myself... But I am processing this... It's been a long time for me since I came out. I haven't really ever had to analyze it, as I just did.

Signed Julie Femme Dyke who knows her Sapphic history.

Interesting.

I guess my gender is more than one as well...

I am a woman-lesbian-femme. I hate putting femme last and don't really mean it that way. It's sorta all of those at the same time. Without one of those, it wouldn't be me.

I love the word Dyke. I've never claimed it. But, i think it's a cool word.

[Novelafemme]

For tonights class I am presenting on Cherrie Moraga's Queer Aztlan.

She writes the following about human relations and desire:

"When we are moved sexually toward someone, there is a profound opportunity to observe the microcosm of all human relations, to understand power dynamics both obvious and subtle, and to meditate on the core creative impulse of all desire. Desire is never politically correct. In sex, gender roles, race relations, and our collective histories of oppression and human connection are enacted."

Another portion that I love...especially the final sentence:

"As a lesbian, I don't pretend to understand the intricacies or intimacies of Chicano gay desire, but we do share the fact that our "homosexuality"-our feelings about sex, sexual power and domination, femininity and masculinity, family, loyalty, and morality-has been shaped by heterosexist culture and society. And such, we have plenty to tell heterosexuals about themselves."

Fabulous thread! More later. I'm off to class now.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I tried Lesbian on, I wanted to be one soooooooooooo bad but the women's group I belonged to found out I was into Leather. I was asked to leave because there was no way possible I could claim Feminist nor Lesbian because of the person I was under. He was cisgender male (gay). I was really hurt I don't think now that I look back at it that it was the main issue.

I think the Leather thing was a good way to get rid of the Leather Dyke of Color who wouldn't let it go that the Women of Color were not being allowed to represent as they could and should be.

That's a whole other topic though.

[Novelafemme]

Oh, as for my gender...I'm with the Judith Butlers out there in that I view my own gender presentation as a performance I act out day to day. And since I'm not done performing I suppose my gender isn't an absolute. But I'll take Femme for $500, Alex. ;)

[Sachita]

Is any of that real content about gender?

wanting to devote your time and energy to pleasing another
enjoying domestic chores (if only for the beloved other)
being available to nurture, support, or instruct


The part that is gender specific other than the clothes is grooving upon the power dynamics embedded in gender. That is kink. Fetish. Whatever you want to call it.

I can get hot because the person I am with is butch. I can get hot because the person I am with has power. I do not conflate the two. It does not get me extra wet BECAUSE a masculine person has power over my more feminine self. Or it has like twice. It's not my kink. But it's a kink. And as such I respect it.

But bringing the conflation of power inequity with gender roles into the world as a "natural" way of relating -- that is sexism. Talking about women's roles and butches or masculine ID'd people's roles as if they are real things. Um no.

I was briefly with someone who had those ideas. We had been friends first and equals. I was shocked when it all came up in D/s. Stupid me. The fact is he no longer respected me as much the minute I went down for him. In his mind, bringing together power exchange with traditional gender roles MEANT disrespecting women. And that is what it has traditionally meant. I have an Egyptian friend who swears no, no, it's separate spheres, and both are respected. To which I say bullshit.


great post Martina.

You know I felt conflicted most of my life because I didn't fall into any traditional roles- not ever. I had one aunt that was typical June Cleaver type and waited on her family hand and foot. She took great pride in this. Another aunt was a go-go dancer that wore sequined bikini's and fishnet stockings and danced in a hanging cage. She had lots of boyfriends who bought her gifts, cleaned her house and treated her like a Queen. I wanted to be her but when I heard my mom and other family members gossip about her it made me feel stupid. I wanted to be a go-go queen. I didn;t want to cook and clean for a bunch of people who never reciprocated.

In school there were too many times when I heard, "You'll marry a nice man and he'll take care of you." or "Its just as easy to fall in love with a rich man then a poor man." such stupid bullshit. I didn't want anything to do with any of it.

So at a very young age I made my own money and people did things for me. If you wanted to date me you knew this about me and if you didn't like it I showed you the road. Later I tapped into femdom and things became more serious. I was much happier but I still had to deal with too much judgement about how my way of living wasn't normal. That I couldn't treat people like that and that women didn't act like I was. Meanwhile they lined up to serve me.

I spent way too many years with people trying to shove that great white lie down my throat. I admit that when I see a woman so dialed into that I question if she's really happy or trapped. I know its stupid and one sided because I expect that from someone else. I personally would love a butch wearing an apron and baking me cookies. Life would be perfect.

oh wait if I think about it I'd really like a June Cleaver sub femme wearing a cute little dress, cooking, cleaning and waiting on my hand and foot. It would bring out my masculine energy and I'd have to throw her down and fuck her. Damn I'm so sexist! lol

[girl_dee]

Interesting.

I guess my gender is more than one as well...

I am a woman-lesbian-femme. I hate putting femme last and don't really mean it that way. It's sorta all of those at the same time. Without one of those, it wouldn't be me.

I love the word Dyke. I've never claimed it. But, i think it's a cool word.



i claim Dyke! i love that word! i think i love it because at one time it meant something derogatory..

i think i am femme first

Femme Dyke has always been my favorite.

[The_Lady_Snow]

great post Martina.

You know I felt conflicted most of my life because I didn't fall into any traditional roles- not ever. I had one aunt that was typical June Cleaver type and waited on her family hand and foot. She took great pride in this. Another aunt was a go-go dancer that wore sequined bikini's and fishnet stockings and danced in a hanging cage. She had lots of boyfriends who bought her gifts, cleaned her house and treated her like a Queen. I wanted to be her but when I heard my mom and other family members gossip about her it made me feel stupid. I wanted to be a go-go queen. I didn;t want to cook and clean for a bunch of people who never reciprocated.

In school there were too many times when I heard, "You'll marry a nice man and he'll take care of you." or "Its just as easy to fall in love with a rich man then a poor man." such stupid bullshit. I didn't want anything to do with any of it.

So at a very young age I made my own money and people did things for me. If you wanted to date me you knew this about me and if you didn't like it I showed you the road. Later I tapped into femdom and things became more serious. I was much happier but I still had to deal with too much judgement about how my way of living wasn't normal. That I couldn't treat people like that and that women didn't act like I was. Meanwhile they lined up to serve me.

I spent way too many years with people trying to shove that great white lie down my throat. I admit that when I see a woman so dialed into that I question if she's really happy or trapped. I know its stupid and one sided because I expect that from someone else. I personally would love a butch wearing an apron and baking me cookies. Life would be perfect.


I know I can say this to you and you will not be like oh that fucking Snow here she goes, I know you will hear me.


You gotta let that go, the one sided assumption that if a woman is dialing into domestication or tasks that come to some form of care taking, or care giving they are trapped.

Here's why.


We're Doms if we want, need, expect this from a butch and we expect them to do it we have to release the one sided.

They are woman too (unless they are not) and the masculine appearance may be able to let you forget that but the assumption they are trapped could be made of them as well.

In BDSM/Kink we can't CAN NOT go into it with any kind of ism or gender role expectation, and we must check our isms ALL of them for us to be able to succesfully lead.


The image of a butch in an apron is hot, but I'd be pretty pissed if someone assumed she was doing it because it was forced or entrapment.


In real time we can have these convos with our girls/women/Femmes. Here too so we gotta make sure we aren't bringing that one sided machete especially when trying to attain a subject.

Make sense?

[spritzerJ]

Interesting.

I guess my gender is more than one as well...

I am a woman-lesbian-femme. I hate putting femme last and don't really mean it that way. It's sorta all of those at the same time. Without one of those, it wouldn't be me.

I love the word Dyke. I've never claimed it. But, i think it's a cool word.




i claim Dyke! i love that word! i think i love it because at one time it meant something derogatory..

i think i am femme first

Femme Dyke has always been my favorite.



I enjoy the word dyke. It says power to me. power in me, in my woman loving way.

I'd say dyke femme.

[Sachita]

I know I can say this to you and you will not be like oh that fucking Snow here she goes, I know you will hear me.


You gotta let that go, the one sided assumption that if a woman is dialing into domestication or tasks that come to some form of care taking, or care giving they are trapped.

Here's why.


We're Doms if we want, need, expect this from a butch and we expect them to do it we have to release the one sided.

They are woman too (unless they are not) and the masculine appearance may be able to let you forget that but the assumption they are trapped could be made of them as well.

In BDSM/Kink we can't CAN NOT go into it with any kind of ism or gender role expectation, and we must check our isms ALL of them for us to be able to succesfully lead.


The image of a butch in an apron is hot, but I'd be pretty pissed if someone assumed she was doing it because it was forced or entrapment.


In real time we can have these convos with our girls/women/Femmes. Here too so we gotta make sure we aren't bringing that one sided machete especially when trying to attain a subject.


Make sense?

Yes I get it and honestly I'm not really holding on it all any more. Of course I might always have that little voice in my head as I check myself. I don't feel I am caught up in gender per se but I could be.

And for me much of this is more about fetishism then anything else. I love role-fucking and anything that fucks the mind.

I think I'm ok here but I know what you mean and respect it.

[girl_dee]

When i was young the word Dyke was used (in my memory) by men who were referring to Butch women. Those butch women to me were strong, fearless and intrepid. Like my Syr..... i wanted to be like them, (the fearless part not the butch part).

So i hope i carry some of the traits that i admired. i feel proud to be a Dyke!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Yes I get it and honestly I'm not really holding on it all any more. Of course I might always have that little voice in my head as I check myself. I don't feel I am caught up in gender per se but I could be.

And for me much of this is more about fetishism then anything else. I love role-fucking and anything that fucks the mind.

I think I'm ok here but I know what you mean and respect it.


:rrose:

I am in favor of all things Fetish!

I can easily fetishsize all things vintage.

http://photos.weddingbycolor-nocookie.com/p000017743-m106205-p-photo-287130/Black-Wedding-Dress-Vintage-50-s-Wedding-Dress.jpg



RAWR


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_bRQvxM5a9WE/TG6C5zZi11I/AAAAAAAABpw/75fjgmQoPaw/s1600/katherine-hepburn-high-waisted-pants.jpg

[Sachita]

i claim Dyke! i love that word! i think i love it because at one time it meant something derogatory..

i think i am femme first

Femme Dyke has always been my favorite.



sometimes femme feels icky to me. But for all intent and purposes, within this bf culture I am.

When someone calls me a lesbian it makes the hairs on my neck stand up. I prefer Queer. I'm not sure why.

I claim Goddess.

[spritzerJ]

When i was young the word Dyke was used (in my memory) by men who were referring to Butch women. Those butch women to me were strong, fearless and intrepid. Like my Syr..... i wanted to be like them, (the fearless part not the butch part).

So i hope i carry some of the traits that i admired. i feel proud to be a Dyke!

I know I carry some of those traits. I didn't always. And I know that I am strong. Strong enough to let go too.

Another part of Dyke to me is trust in myself. I've got that too these days.

I bet you have your own twist on that Dyke fearless too Cajun Dee.

[The_Lady_Snow]

sometimes femme feels icky to me. But for all intent and purposes, within this bf culture I am.

When someone calls me a lesbian it makes the hairs on my neck stand up. I prefer Queer. I'm not sure why.

I claim Goddess.



I too use Queer, it goes with my politics, beliefs, life, so on. I like that I can be long to the alphabet soup (LGBTQI).


I am hoping novela comes back to discuss gender. culture.id's and how they differ.

[Sachita]

oh I can totally get into the vintage glam thing! I was never much for leather per se. I mean I love boots, gloves, maybe a corset. But give me a velvet gown, pearls, stilettos and opera gloves any day.

for a hot scene I might be more inclined to wear something silky, revealing and easy access.

[spritzerJ]

I know I carry some of those traits. I didn't always. And I know that I am strong. Strong enough to let go too.

Another part of Dyke to me is trust in myself. I've got that too these days.

I bet you have your own twist on that Dyke fearless too Cajun Dee.

Yes I quote myself these days... I was thinking about my "strong enough to let go" part.

1. that is my strength. my path to learn how to let go. It is the lesson I needed to learn and learn again.
2. letting go is my expression of power. over that which feels binding. It is my expression of power to choose that which binds me.
3. I find it just as powerful the expression of being strong enough to be in control, to not let go, to hold on.

[girl_dee]

:rrose:

I am in favor of all things Fetish!

I can easily fetishsize all things vintage.

http://photos.weddingbycolor-nocookie.com/p000017743-m106205-p-photo-287130/Black-Wedding-Dress-Vintage-50-s-Wedding-Dress.jpg



RAWR


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_bRQvxM5a9WE/TG6C5zZi11I/AAAAAAAABpw/75fjgmQoPaw/s1600/katherine-hepburn-high-waisted-pants.jpg


i SO love the cupcake dress!

[ArkansasPiscesGrrl]

I am still reading the posts in this most wonderful thought-provoking thread.

I also, Snowy, related to the Momma aspect from the earlier posting. That is where, I think, my own idea of part of how I learned growing up to identify. Since I got married at the baby young age of 16, and started raising my kids at the age of 17, and the fact that my own mother had died when I was 13, I just really didn't have a lot of examples to draw upon. I basically had to just DO. Do my best. Stumble through the best I could. Try to remember what my own mom was like (hey, at that age I really wasn't paying a lot of attention to her and what she did, how she did it, and certainly never spoke to her about WHY she did what she did and what she may have thought about it!)

So I became the nurturer. That was a role I had been thrust into when my mom had her cerebral hemmorhage and slipped into a 7 month coma before dying. I was the middle child, and already did the whole peace-keeping role. So I had to grow into the momma figure for my younger siblings, even though the next one down was only a year younger than me. My older siblings were just older enough to have their own busy lives and could not be bothered. Just the way it was.

I *like* taking care of others. Doing nice things for them. Pleasing them. As I have gotten older, it has become more of a choice to me whether I will do something or not, though. I remember talking to someone about getting coffee for my partner in the mornings. She asked me if I did this as a "duty", or was it because I really WANTED to get her coffee. I told her that since I was already getting my OWN coffee, it made sense and was not an inconvenience to get someone else's. Do I let others do things for me? Yes, of course.

As to the Femme/gender topic, I like Jo came out very late in life, and I don't know if that colors my viewpoint. I am female. I am a woman. That is my gender. I am also queer, that is who I love and how I want my sex. Finding myself to "Femme" was a whole other process and journey. My Femme is not just the fact that I still like to take care of others at times. My Femme, to ME, is my softer side, my open heart, my hopes for my future, my vulnerability, my fierceness, my courage, my toughness, my grit, my wisdom. It also speaks out and YELLS and SCREAMS and HOWLS and DEMANDS to be HEARD when I am around a Butch. It demands to be recognized, demands to be seen and appreciated and loved.

I will close with a cute little true story. Back in the day, when I was very active in the leather community in FL, one of my nicknames was Juney. As in June Cleaver. I have always been so damned white-bread in my looks. I am a mother and grandmother, for Gods sake! Frumpy at times. Well, when I was running the largest BDSM social network in the State of FL, and Topping others, and losing myself in bottoming to others, the fact that I looked so ordinary, while at the same time was just so fucking KINKY, well, it just warmed my twisted little heart! I do love me a good mind fuck!

So hell to the yeah, I still to this day answer to "Juney". Proudly!

[*Anya*]

I know I carry some of those traits. I didn't always. And I know that I am strong. Strong enough to let go too.

Another part of Dyke to me is trust in myself. I've got that too these days.

I bet you have your own twist on that Dyke fearless too Cajun Dee.

Queer does not fit for me. Never has.

I never claimed Dyke but I like it.

Lesbian feels the best.

It is exactly who and what I am.

[Martina]

This is a towel from the fifties. She's tossing the dirty dishes out the window. Ironically appropriate image for a dish towel.

You know there had to have been a lot of Erma Bombeck style humor about the absurd expectations placed on women.

http://www.kaboodle.com/hi/img/b/0/0/195/f/AAAAC2aEIGgAAAAAAZX5hQ.jpg?v=1320418993000

[Sachita]

This is a towel from the fifties. She's tossing the dirty dishes out the window. Ironically appropriate image for a dish towel.

You know there had to have been a lot of Erma Bombeck style humor about the absurd expectations placed on women.

http://www.kaboodle.com/hi/img/b/0/0/195/f/AAAAC2aEIGgAAAAAAZX5hQ.jpg?v=1320418993000


hahaha that would have been me! I hate housework. I love cooking and making wonderful meals for the people I love but I hate hate housework. But I love my house clean. Thankfully I was able to finally hire someone until I find my own June or Tim. lol

[girl_dee]

Just thoughts on the evolution of *woman*, all genders of women. Over the years women have been told what a real woman does, and sadly even by other women. We've been judged and torn apart, all the while trying to do the right thing.

So basically in the beginning..

1) Tend to the farmhouse, feed the chickens, birth lots of babies, bake the biscuits, scrub the laundry, help in the fields (sometimes in the same day as birthing a baby) and read the bible to the babies by the coal oil light. Don't buck the husband and do as you are told. That's what a real woman does.

2) Graduate high school, marry the perfect man, please him, take care of him, birth the babies and take care of them while hubby is at the office. Make sure you've got the supper on the table and in your nice dress and pearls when he returns.. (June Cleaver).. "stand by your man " kinda thing...Be happy, make the best of it and be grateful.
That's what a real woman does.

3) Get a job! Womens liberation yaknow! Work outside the home like the men do. Get paid, not as much but be happy you have a job. Work all day and come home like the men do, oh by the way, also do all the things in #2. Figure out how to get the kids and hubby fed within minutes at the end of your work day. Spend the weekends cleaning and cooking to get ready for that work week. That's what a real woman does.

4) What the hell are you doing working and leaving the kids at day care? No good mom does this, Stay home and raise those kids! Forget the job and life outside the home, your job is to raise kids and take care of the house. You are not a good mom if you work and have kids in day care. That's what a real woman does.

i have never seen men subjected to such standards. Their "role" has pretty much stayed the same. Man is the dominant force. Women not so much.


That's how i feel the evolution of *woman* has played out over the years. i wonder has anyone ever bothered to say *let a woman decide what is best for her and her kids* without judgment? Nope, conform or be judged.

What is NOT brought up is what happens when Dad is a deadbeat and they have no choice but to work and leave kids in the care of someone else? What happens when the husband is abusive and she is scared to venture outside the home? What if she is trapped? What if the woman is queer? She was expected to marry a man without consideration of her identity. (my mother). It didn't matter as long as she did what was expected. Many times women have no option for what they do, yet they are still judged.

i am sick of women try to explain, and be judged as to why they do what they do because it doesn't meld with society's idea of a real woman at any given time. Hell we weren't even allowed to wear slacks in the beginning! We have had to fight for our rights and privileges since the beginning. We have been shamed into feeling pregnancy was something to be ashamed of (not allowed on TV during June Cleaver's run). Women didn't swear or get dirty. All because men said it wasn't proper.

When i was 12 my mother went and got a job. My father nearly came unglued. He showed up at her work and harassed her every day. Of course this was after 13 years of abuse, so it was to be expected.

[girl_dee]

/4X4MwbVf5OA


The Song is called, "I'm A Woman."

It is one of Peggy Lee's signature songs. The actress in the Enjoli commercial was a top model. Her name is Christina.

Enjoli Commercial's Lyrics:

Christina: I can put the wash on the line, feed the kids, get dressed, pass out the kisses and get to work by 5 to 9.
'Cause I'm a Woman, Enjoli!

(Announcer): Charles of The Ritz Creates Enjoli. The New 8 Hour Perfume for The 24 Hour Woman.

Christina: I can bring home the Bacon!
Chorus: Enjoli.
Christina: Fry it up in a Pan!
Chorus: Enjoli.
Christina: And Never, Never, Never let you forget You're a Man!
'Cause I'm a Woman!
Chorus: Enjoli!


Peggy Lee's Original Lyrics:

I can wash out 44 pairs of socks and have 'em hangin' out on the line.
I can starch and iron 2 dozens shirts before you can count from 1 to 9.
I can scoop up a great big dipper, full of lard from the drippins can;
Throw it in the skillet, go out and do my shopping, be back before it melts in the pan.
'Cause I'm a woman! W-O-M-A-N, I'll say it again!

I can rub and scrub this old house 'til it's shinin' like a dime,
Feed the baby, grease the car, and powder my face at the same time;
Get all dressed up, go out and swing 'til 4 am,
And then lay down at 5, jump up at 6, and start all over again!
'Cause I'm a woman! W-O-M-A-N, I'll say it again!

If you come to me sickly, you know I'm gonna make you well.
If you come to me all hexed up, you know I'm gonna break the spell.
If you come to me hungry, you know I'm gonna fill you full of grits.
If it's lovin' you're likin', I'll kiss you and give you the shiverin' fits.
'Cause I'm a woman! W-O-M-A-N, I'll say it again!

I can stretch a greenback dollar bill from here to kingdom come.
I can play the numbers, pay the bills and still end up with some.
I got a twenty dollar gold piece says there ain't nothing I can't do.
I can make a dress out of a feed bag and I can make a man out of you!
'Cause I'm a woman! W-O-M-A-N, I'll say it again!
'Cause I'm a woman! W-O-M-A-N . . . and that's all.

[girl_dee]

While i'm on a tangent.. ever notice how all of the cleaning product commercials are filmed with only feminine women using them?

Just once i'd like to see a man/big burly dyke in one!

[Sachita]

It's very unfair but on the flip side is that women CAN do it all. I'm not going to get into the whole gender equality thing because in my perception there is no equality. And we all know that there are exception to the gender rules, however, how many men are working, raising kids and dealing with everything on Dee's list? Yes, there are SOME.

My mother worked in a factory to raise 4 kids living in projects. My dad helped some but he was too busy growing up.

My granddaughters mother has two kids. There's Mia, my son's child and a child from her last marriage. I raised my son to be self sufficient. He was doing his laundry at age 12, helping to cook and clean. So helping her is never a problem. When they were not together he had no problem picking Mia up, even as an infant and taking her for the weekend. Some people were surprised by this. He just jumped right in changing diapers, feeding and bathing. When his buddy said "Babies need their mama. You part come later." he told him that was bullshit. That its his kid too.

I too was a single mother going to school, working and trying to have a life. thankfully I have supportive family to help. So I make it a point to always be there for her no matter what. If she needs a break to do nothing I'll go watch the kids. Sometimes I don't think she realizes how easy she has it compared to some mothers. I see a lot of mothers really struggling.

[JustJo]

It's very unfair but on the flip side is that women CAN do it all.

Yes, but at what cost?

I'm 50, and was raised in that whole 70's "you can do anything" era. What we ended up with was not anything....but everything. We kept the responsibility for house and children, and gained the responsibility for working and bringing in an income.

It may not be a popular opinion, but I have a certain level of anger at the whole feminist movement....because it got us halfway and left us stranded in a place that is better for some women for sure....but a hell of a lot worse for others. Now we have time limits on public assistance, even for women with small children, because we insist that they work in order to get help. I'm not sure that's the best thing.

People will say we are better at enforcing support on deadbeat dads now...and maybe we are. After all, my own father never paid a nickel and walked away. But, having just been dealing with the Child Support Enforcement office for all of this year and recieving nothing....I would call bullshit on that.

My son was in childcare from the age of 6 weeks....too young for a freaking puppy to leave its mother, because I HAD to work. If I have one huge, overwhelming thing I feel guilt and sadness over...it's that. I never had the chance to simply stay home and be a mother, in part because I managed to reproduce with an idiot, but also in part because society as a whole decided that it was better for me to work than to simply be a mom.

So, yeah, we can do it all. I have done it all. I've been a single mom, worked my whole life, always been the primary breadwinner, always been the housekeeper and cook, put myself though college.....so, yay me. I am fucking exhausted.

[girl_dee]

Yup i've done it all too.

i think the difference is what's expected of us. Women have always done what needs to be done.

What i have an issue with is someone dictating to women what is expected of them to be a *woman*

A woman should be able to do whatever she wants/needs/desires to do without judgment or being told she is less than a woman/femme/mother because of it.

am i making sense?

[girl_dee]

Yes, but at what cost?



It may not be a popular opinion, but I have a certain level of anger at the whole feminist movement....because it got us halfway and left us stranded in a place that is better for some women for sure....but a hell of a lot worse for others.



i am SO agreeing with this!!!

[spritzerJ]

It's very unfair but on the flip side is that women CAN do it all. I'm not going to get into the whole gender equality thing because in my perception there is no equality. And we all know that there are exception to the gender rules, however, how many men are working, raising kids and dealing with everything on Dee's list? Yes, there are SOME.



Jumping off Sachita here...

Yes women can do it all. And for a 3/4 of the cost, a fraction of the ownership and triple the workload.

I sort of agree there is no equality. I'm not entirely convinced that equality should be the end goal. Parity? maybe. I do know I am unwilling to settle for less than at least equal by my personal definition of needs/wants. And in my personal pursuit of my life's liberty I remain committed to working toward the equity women as a community.

Being raised by a super strong woman. One who really wanted to have babies and bake brownies... I've learned a thing or two about choosing and the unknown. My mom choose to marry my dad and have kids and planned on staying home with the kids. It didn't work out that way. And I am grateful. Because I got to see what it means to want and go for it ALL and the cost of doing it all (for less, with less and triple the workload).

Now I know. People can say all they want about what I am supposed to do. How I should live and what ideal I should hold myself too. And I am not going to buy it. Not with out looking at it. Examining it, finding what fits, what doesn't and how it can be altered.

I know I have it easier than my mom. Her telling me this doesn't make me angry or even doubt myself anymore. It reminds me who different choices and times lead to different outcomes. I treasure that she shares her lessons. Making my own choices and relying on community and resources is part of how I honor her.

[easygoingfemme]

There are so many sides to that, and I can see and understand them all.
Having been a single parent, and then a partnered parent - partnered to someone who I did not share parenting responsibilities with- and then a single mom again, I have to say that the biggest part for me is that I have a choice.

When my daughter was an infant I was dating a woman who wanted me to move in with her, she wanted to support us, put us on her health insurance, the full picture. It wasn't in an oppressive way for her, she just wanted family, wanted to take care of us. I didn't want that. She was awesome and I was crazy about her, but I didn't want to be dependent on her, no matter how much easier my life would have been if I had gone with it. Around that same time we were talking with friends and they were feeling badly for me because I was doing it all, working, taking care of a baby, etc. However, I couldn't tell them enough that I was so thankful that I had a choice. I was also able to put extreme emphasis on creative a life where I could take my daughter to work with me and avoid daycare until she was much older.

The evolution may have brought us to a point where work/self support is not an option for single parents, and I hate how social services works with mothers, especially new mothers, and especially when newborns are in daycare and mother's hearts are being torn apart over it. I hate all of that.

But the flip side to is it, is that without the ability to go out and earn a living, women would be forced to remain in unhealthy, abusive, and unfulfilled relationships because they most often wouldn't have another way to support themselves. That's not a power dynamic I'd ever want back and it's not a home I'd want to raise a child in.

[Sachita]

Yes, but at what cost?

I'm 50, and was raised in that whole 70's "you can do anything" era. What we ended up with was not anything....but everything. We kept the responsibility for house and children, and gained the responsibility for working and bringing in an income.

It may not be a popular opinion, but I have a certain level of anger at the whole feminist movement....because it got us halfway and left us stranded in a place that is better for some women for sure....but a hell of a lot worse for others. Now we have time limits on public assistance, even for women with small children, because we insist that they work in order to get help. I'm not sure that's the best thing.

People will say we are better at enforcing support on deadbeat dads now...and maybe we are. After all, my own father never paid a nickel and walked away. But, having just been dealing with the Child Support Enforcement office for all of this year and recieving nothing....I would call bullshit on that.

My son was in childcare from the age of 6 weeks....too young for a freaking puppy to leave its mother, because I HAD to work. If I have one huge, overwhelming thing I feel guilt and sadness over...it's that. I never had the chance to simply stay home and be a mother, in part because I managed to reproduce with an idiot, but also in part because society as a whole decided that it was better for me to work than to simply be a mom.

So, yeah, we can do it all. I have done it all. I've been a single mom, worked my whole life, always been the primary breadwinner, always been the housekeeper and cook, put myself though college.....so, yay me. I am fucking exhausted.

actually women have come a long way considering where we were. I'm tired too but I also beat the odds, own my own home/farm, business. I am proud and grateful. I know the challenges all too well. I won't dwell in them. I'm not saying you are.

I use to get angry and pissed off by all the fucking obstacles I had to surmount. I felt cheated and often depressed having to do it all alone. I built this farm for me and my partner. Busted my ass and assumed huge responsibly just for her to fuck up, cheat and basically left me holding the bag. We didn't have kids but we had animals.

Yeah maybe I am a little exhausted now that I think about it all. My best defense is to live my best life and not pay attention to the fact that I'm considered a minority. lol

[girl_dee]

But the flip side to is it, is that without the ability to go out and earn a living, women would be forced to remain in unhealthy, abusive, and unfulfilled relationships because they most often wouldn't have another way to support themselves. That's not a power dynamic I'd ever want back and it's not a home I'd want to raise a child in.

This is what i am talking about too. NO CHOICE. When my sister told my
Mamere (grandmother) that she was getting a divorce my Mamere replied (in a hushed voice) that she wished divorce was an option in her day. Made me sad. That woman had a hard life at the hands of my Papere and what was expected of her, because she simply did not have a choice. No options. Women were evil if they even spoke about divorcing, even with an abusive asshole. It was just not talked about.


So many times say *but mom was happy!*.. was she really happy or finding happiness in a hopeless situation? Making the best of it? Doing what she thought she was supposed to do? Saving face for the kids?

Did June Cleaver have a choice?

[PurpleQuestions84]

Thank god for housekeepers :praying:

[Martina]

If you are mad at feminism, then be mad at yourselves. The women's movement disappeared because it was reasonably successful. Middle class women completely abandonned the movement and the poor women who especially needed it.

It's our fault there is no women's movement.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Thank god for housekeepers :praying:


I'd like to thank the the Leather Entities for houseboys/bois/girls myself..... :fastdraq:

[Ginger]

While i'm on a tangent.. ever notice how all of the cleaning product commercials are filmed with only feminine women using them?

Just once i'd like to see a man/big burly dyke in one!


What a good point!

[Martina]

I'd like to see a big burly dyke on TV at all.

[JustJo]

If you are mad at feminism, then be mad at yourselves. The women's movement disappeared because it was reasonably successful. Middle class women completely abandonned the movement and the poor women who especially needed it.

It's our fault there is no women's movement.

Unfortunately you are absolutely right. I think it's one of the scummier parts of human nature (of most, not all) to want to take all the help, climb all the ladders to opportunity and success....and then pull those ladders up behind us so no one else can use them.

How many children and grandchildren of immigrants are screaming for us to close our borders? Lots....and it makes me sick. Same thing.

Too often, people "get theirs" and then turn their backs on the people coming up behind them.

Getting on a soapbox here....but I want to slap women of my age who let their young daughters absorb these messages of "what you look like is what you are" and don't say a word, and the media that perpetuates it ad nauseum.

I still contribute to the scholarship fund for low-income women at my alma maters....because college is what pulled my personal fat out of the fire. And I've raised my son to respect women and truly view women (and girls) as equals....not from that "let me help you little lady" place, but on an equal footing. I'm a mentor in my professional life, and my current "mentee" is a young woman...."coincidentally" they all have been....and generally women of color. And, an old habit from the 80s....if I'm standing in the voting booth and I'm faced with a choice I haven't researched enough to have a strong opinion....I choose the female name. Just cuz.

I'm not saying all this to pat myself on the back....I just wish we would all recognize what we can do to further equality...and keep pushing it forward in even small ways.

[girl_dee]

I'd like to see a big burly dyke on TV at all.

Ain't that the truth. i think i've become so accustomed to seeing the stereotypical representation of the population i don't even notice it anymore.

i have noticed that when there are butch looking women on TV they seem to glam them out sooner or later. Queen Latifah comes to mind. i adore her don't get me wrong, but i loved her appearance more when she was young, tough and butch. Then one day she was glammed out. i miss the old Latifah, but it's really not about me.

[girl_dee]

For years i was in the Big Sister program. Most of the girls were POC, poor, throwaway girls. Young, sometimes pregnant, sometimes pregnant with their own fathers/stepfathers babies. You wanna talk about some girls who feel hopeless?

Many times they joined me in Christmas at my Grandmothers because they had no where to go. i'd take as many as i could fit in my car. i had to be the shero, feed my own ego yaknow, only now i wonder if it made things worse for them.

i am glad we have POC in my family because i imagine it was strange enough walking into the Cajun Christmas madness at my Mamere's. After a little while they would relax but that had to be scary! Quite an experience that i hope they look back on and smile.

i hafta tell you that it only made me hate society more because i then had to return them to the girls home, i felt like a total prick. For one day they were treated well, my family always had gifts and my Mamere always had extras because she never knew who i would be bringing with me.

Then to go back to the home, that sucked.

i hope that our weekends and holidays made them feel less hopeless. i tried to expose them to what life could be like for them. That they were not hopeless. If all girls have to use as role models is what they see on TV, that's a sad case indeed.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Ain't that the truth. i think i've become so accustomed to seeing the stereotypical representation of the population i don't even notice it anymore.

i have noticed that when there are butch looking women on TV they seem to glam them out sooner or later. Queen Latifah comes to mind. i adore her don't get me wrong, but i loved her appearance more when she was young, tough and butch. Then one day she was glammed out. i miss the old Latifah, but it's really not about me.






It's funny I never viewed Queen Latifah as *butch* she's like myself I feel in that she owns her masculinity. The reason I say this is because it's a misconception that cultural comfort and acceptance with masculinity and being a queer woman isnt necessarily tied to being butch.

I would be considered a *macha* in my particular part of cultural POC labels. I own my masculinity so therefore someone can automatically assume me being butch if I wore a particular garb.

This is Queen Latifah as I knew her as a wee lil lass:

http://mechanisticmoth.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/queen-latifah-returns-to-hip-hop.jpeg



Her evolution into her woman hood has gone from masculine hard to feminine soft (in clothing and appearance)

http://blogs.longwood.edu/michellemoodhe/files/2011/09/queen-latifah-then-and-now_full.jpg



I never thought in her evolution as a woman of color in the rap/hip hop/urban culture/industry was anywhere near butch, it was her finding a balance and playing with her masculine and feminine traits that she has and was born and raised into

[The_Lady_Snow]

As a matter of fact

Latifah is Egyptian for *delicate* *gentle* *pleasant*

Her name right away clearly points that she own's her feminine person:)

[girl_dee]

Good points, well taken, thank you.

i remember her as this bad ass rapping butch whom i actually had a crush on. i have no idea why and i don't know her personally. i just got that energy from her. She seemed different from the rest. i liked that.

i do still like her as the evolved woman she is today.

i definitely can see a comparison to you, Snow. The different energies. :)

i do think it's a wonderful thing that a woman can go from point A to point B in her lifetime and not have to answer to, or conform to society's stereotypical woman of today.

[princessbelle]

I don't think i've ever thought of Queen Latifah as a butch. But, i have majorly picked up on her masculine energy. For me, it's on the lines of Jodi Foster or Ellen. I don't *think* they claim the id as butch. It's the masculine energy i'm talking about. It's there without saying a word.

OMG is that hot or what.

MAJOR swooooooooooooooon!!!!!!!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Good points, well taken, thank you.

i remember her as this bad ass rapping butch whom i actually had a crush on. i have no idea why and i don't know her personally. i just got that energy from her. She seemed different from the rest. i liked that.

i do still like her as the evolved woman she is today.

i definitely can see a comparison to you, Snow. The different energies. :)

i do think it's a wonderful thing that a woman can go from point A to point B in her lifetime and not have to answer to, or conform to society's stereotypical woman of today.



Latifah came out in the late 80's, I remember going to a store on Mission St and buying her LP

"Hail to the Queen"


She was AMAZING, she not only wore traditional garb with confidence she wore it with pride.

http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_250/MI0001/716/MI0001716844.jpg?partner=allrovi.com


Her style was hard and her rhymes are about strength and perseverance, in her single "Ladies First" :

_RFh8pjtdQo


This particular song is a Feminist anthem.



"Come to My House" - pens with the ultra-diva line, "Welcome into my Queendom..."


It wasn't until the movie "Set It Off" that the assumption and assignment of butch was placed on her because of the look she portrayed in the movie as a matter of fact all four of the women in the movie had "masculine energies"


http://img.movieberry.com/static/photos/23748/16_midi.jpg




http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo126/theybf/MARCH%202010/bdd11c91.jpg


The Queen was a continuous movement by the women of color in the hip hop/urban/rap culture women were claiming their space, they did it hard, they did it strong and it SCARED people and changed the music scene and opened it so women like MIA, Nicki Minage.


Missy Elliot is a great example of masculinity and femininity being fluid in a woman she could go from hard to soft real easy and not skip a beat.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UHfhm5_IRdM/TBQ2UVFgzNI/AAAAAAAAAdI/-54-VU3vces/s1600/missy_wallpaper3_1024.jpg


If I was more comfortable pulling out old pictures, I can show you in *chola* clothing how I can easily convert my appearance from feminine to hard masculine with just a few accessories.:)

[The_Lady_Snow]

READ DISCLAIMER PLEASE


*** I would like to keep this conversation as a FEMME ONLY conversation. If you would like to have this very conversation about the "totem person" of your gender please do so in in your specific Zones. If like myself you want to keep it to specific identity/gender ask in a disclaimer so the conversation is uninterrupted. I've discussed this particular detail with Medusa and got the OK to ask for this allowance***

Thank you

[julieisafemme]

If you are mad at feminism, then be mad at yourselves. The women's movement disappeared because it was reasonably successful. Middle class women completely abandonned the movement and the poor women who especially needed it.

It's our fault there is no women's movement.

Ok. I can agree that it is our fault. I do not agree that the movement was reasonably successful though. I have felt like Jo too. I did not want to call myself a feminist. I do now. I have worked since I was 18 and have raised my child as a working mom and sometimes I do get sour about the fact that I am supposed to bring home the bacon and fry it and take care of my child. What makes me realize that things weren't so great when my Mom was raising us as a stay at home mom was that she was unhappy and stifled. So going back to that is not a good choice either.

As a mom I think that kids do well when there is a parent at home. Does not matter if it is Dad or Mom. That is the feminist part to me. Balance is about raising a family and having everyone do their part. Mom cannot do it all! That is the message that I felt was given to me growing up. I had to do it all.

The movement was not successful at all for middle class women when the message is that we have to work and take care of the house and take care of the children. There are not a lot of safety nets or social structures in place in this country to help working mothers. That is a problem.

So what is my part and responsibility? One is to realize that the manufactured ideal of a modern woman fed to me by the media is not feminism. That was hard for me to learn! You and Bully and others here on this site helped me figure that out. I thank you for that!

I hope my daughter will be a mom someday. I want to support her in her growth as a woman. I want to tell her that working and raising a family is all doable and I want to help create the social structures that will make that possible.

[JustJo]

This whole Queen Latifah bend in the conversation is interesting to me. First, because I absolutely love her and, second, because although she resonates powerful, confident, badass woman to me....she has never read "butch"....with the exception of the character she played in Set It Off.

I wonder why we want to immediately assign "butch" to women with energy and strength that is traditionally deemed masculine.

I wouldn't say that I have any masculine energy....like zero. I'm not girly-girly, but I've even been surprised when I see myself on video that my gestures and body language are far more traditionally "feminine" than I would have thought.

However, in my work life, I'm in charge of project teams...and frequently what we call "tiger teams" - specialists who are charged with relentlessly hunting down and killing flaws in the design or function of the project. They aren't easy people to coordinate at times....and I am in charge of keeping them all on track, on time, on budget and working together. In my meetings, and in my projects, there is no doubt who is in charge. I speak softly, I am polite....and I am in fucking charge. Overstep my bounds and you (general you) will learn that quickly as you pull back a bloody stump....regardless of the title you wear in the company.

I think it's a fallacy that women have to have any masculine energy at all to be powerful. I also think it's a fallacy that they have to be "bitchy" to be in charge.

I can be soft, feminine, even quiet....and absolutely in charge.

[Martina]

There were rumors that she ID'd as butch in her private life. Who knows?

[girl_dee]

this whole convo has made me realize that i SO equated masculine to butch.

we ALL have masculine energy, some more than others.

i am as femme as they come but sometimes enjoy rolling in some "masculine" energy. At the time i don't feel masculine. i feel like a femme enjoying some non tradtitional femme activity.

like changing the oil in the car.

You'd never see old June Cleaver doing that.

[*Anya*]

To me, regardless of her feminine dress or appearance, the Queen always felt to me as butch.

Of course, it may or may not be how she identifies herself or how anyone else perceives her.

I "feel" butch/masculine energy from women.

As in many things, my perception may not be correct.

I enjoy it when I feel it.

[girl_dee]

but does masculine energy always equal butch?

[*Anya*]

but does masculine energy always equal butch?



I think we could go round and round on this one and no one would be wrong.

To me, masculine does equal butch.

Are femmes strong and powerful?

Absolutely! It is a femme energy to me. Their/our/my energy is always femme, even if kicking ass and taking names (exaggerating here, of course).

Again, how I see it and feel it.

[Martina]

Well, I def have some masculine energy. But I don't ID as butch. I just do. I don't dislike it. I actually think of it as boy energy, and it is fun. But it's not something I foreground in intimate relationships.

[pinkgeek]

I have noticed that when there are butch looking women on TV they seem to glam them out sooner or later. Queen Latifah comes to mind. i adore her don't get me wrong, but i loved her appearance more when she was young, tough and butch. Then one day she was glammed out. i miss the old Latifah, but it's really not about me.


Once upon a time I had a conversation very similar to the above comment with my at that time butch partner. She was hot under the collar about a certain news personality (clue Maddow) and she assumed and assured me that Maddow had been forced to be less butch to be successful.

My retort was that while it may be true that she had to be less butch to be successful in mainstream media.... (I've never read an article about that or researched it so I don't know) who are we to assume that it wasn't her choice. I feel the same way about Queen Latifah.

It's a particularly queer kind of arrogance (no offense Dee I'm using your comment as a jumping point) that we assume when someones gender/presentation evolves from butch to femme, or trans to femme or femme to butch etc. and so forth that they are either being forced to by society or they are being a traitor to their gender/identification.

In NO WAY am I saying society hasn't and doesn't pressured people to present themselves in a specific way to be successful, but I think we do need to be careful not to lay judgements and assumptions on especially successful women.

Another similar example that was just pointed out to me is about one of my favorite authors (who is also a personal friend of my beloved butch). I complained before reading more works that I wish her work was more overtly queer. Upon further inspection and thought if her work was overtly queer chances are she wouldn't be one of the souths most successful authors as well as a New York Times best selling author. I really needed to step back and examine that being a queer author isn't a must because she has same sex relationships. It's her right as a woman/human to choose to put being an author ahead or being an activist.

We put so much pressure on those who are successful and who are representatives of our queer culture. At what point are they allowed to just make a choice without inspection. By default they are spokes peeps and representatives, but it's not by obligation.

Feminism in it's most simple form to me is choice. Having the knowledge and education (doesn't have to be formal) to choose to be an astronaut or a stay at home mom. Feminism to me is also choosing not to judge informed decisions by women. Women queer or straight face enough adversity and judgement without me adding to it.

Your mileage may vary - mine isn't perfect.

[~ocean]

very well said pink !

[girl_dee]

Yes very well said! Thanks you for being considerate but i am not offended in the least.

i hope our posts do lead go deeper thinking and sharing a pov.

It has been an observation that sometimes what i feel is butch energy is
held down in Hollywood or even the music industry.

i do certainly want to be aware that women do sometimes flow in and out if their own energies and not just to please their manager.

i do think it's less popular to be butch - like in Hollwood and maybe that's a pressure on entertainers, i don't know.

[Martina]

Another similar example that was just pointed out to me is about one of my favorite authors (who is also a personal friend of my beloved butch). I complained before reading more works that I wish her work was more overtly queer. Upon further inspection and thought if her work was overtly queer chances are she wouldn't be one of the souths most successful authors as well as a New York Times best selling author.

Rita Mae Brown??

Fannie Flagg??

Inquiring minds . . . .

[The_Lady_Snow]

but does masculine energy always equal butch?





No, Studs, Agressives, dykes, machas, cholas, Femmes have it. I know I do there's no arguing it. It is what it is. Masculinity isn't gender specific.

[spritzerJ]

this whole convo has made me realize that i SO equated masculine to butch.

we ALL have masculine energy, some more than others.

i am as femme as they come but sometimes enjoy rolling in some "masculine" energy. At the time i don't feel masculine. i feel like a femme enjoying some non tradtitional femme activity.

like changing the oil in the car.

You'd never see old June Cleaver doing that.

The part I bolded is interesting to me.

I am later arriving in my life to the Femme scene. So I am not quite sure how to say what is traditional and non traditional femme in presentation and energy.

I identify as Femme. My dominate presentation in dress/style is Femme. I don't quiet go as far to say my gender is Femme. Because I don't feel like I have a gender and sex. I've been assigned one. I am not opposed to my assigned gender and sex.

My energy is a bit something I do not qualify as masculine or feminine. Sometimes I flow better with those that are presenting as masculine in energy. Sometimes with femmes and the "I don't know what you are talking about I am just a woman" folks. Because to me my energy is just me in the world doing what I do. I may be interpreted as masculine or feminine (or just weird) by others differently at times. And the interpretation of my energy as a type of gender and reacting to me as if I am masculine or feminine drives me batty. It is as if they missed the point.

[easygoingfemme]

Rita Mae Brown??

Fannie Flagg??

Inquiring minds . . . .

Omg yes please spill who it is you know! We won't harass you for introductions, promise! (my fingers just might be oh so slightly crossed behind my back)

[pinkgeek]

Omg yes please spill who it is you know! We won't harass you for introductions, promise! (my fingers just might be oh so slightly crossed behind my back)

What I neglected to articulate in my post (hence mentioning that I was criticizing an author hy has a friendship with) was that it took hym basically saying "Hey wait, slow your roll....<insert personal stories here>" when I said I wished the author was more overtly queer in her writing.

I learn and have my most profound "aha" moments through personal stories and interaction. Those interactions can happen online, over the phone or in person.

Thanks for the awesome dialogue everyone and Snow for starting it all off..

[princesskathie]

I'm jumping into this thread way way late, but I want to chime in on the original June Cleaver question.

I don't feel any sort of femme connection with Junie at all. She was unendingly dull because the only role she had was to facilitate the happenings in other people's lives. My memory may be blurry, but I don't recollect June ever doing anything interesting EVER. I mean, really, even Barbie went to the moon and became a veterinarian.

Plus June dressed EXACTLY like every single other girl on the block, and my flavor of femminess expresses itself through the way I doll up. I'm a girlygirl, but I certainly don't want to dress in standard girlygirl uniform.

I respect the value of taking care of others that June embodied, but we can certainly take good care of our loved ones while being vibrant femmes in our own right.

[Sarafemme]

I'm jumping into this thread way way late, but I want to chime in on the original June Cleaver question.

I don't feel any sort of femme connection with Junie at all. She was unendingly dull because the only role she had was to facilitate the happenings in other people's lives. My memory may be blurry, but I don't recollect June ever doing anything interesting EVER. I mean, really, even Barbie went to the moon and became a veterinarian.

Plus June dressed EXACTLY like every single other girl on the block, and my flavor of femminess expresses itself through the way I doll up. I'm a girlygirl, but I certainly don't want to dress in standard girlygirl uniform.

I respect the value of taking care of others that June embodied, but we can certainly take good care of our loved ones while being vibrant femmes in our own right.

I completely agree with PrincessKathie re: June Cleaver. I was born in the mid-70s so I don't remember seeing the show until I was an adult (and then in re-runs, obviously). I can see an attraction to the idea of 'playing' a 1950s-housewife role for kink reasons (but I'd certainly embody something more exciting than June Cleaver). I tend to like those greeting cards you see with the vintage housewife pictures on them and some subversive thought in a bubble above them (the whole notion of 'What were they /really/ thinking?) LOL.

[girl_dee]

This was one of the best threads on the site. i’ve enjoyed re-reading it.

[girl_dee]

Know what pisses me off even more.

When I log in here and I see the Femme, Butch, Trans, Zie's, post a picture of a feminine woman and refer to her as Femme or when describing a straight (hetero) woman they see on the street and have a boner for as Femme.

It's a mixture of anger, hurst, angst, and seperation. It's nothing to do with insecurity, jealousy it's all to do with stop giving other's what is MINE and I've worked hard for!


i totally resonate with this post. i don’t think that butches realize, that even when they do this in the spirit of a harmless fantasy, that it causes some of us femmes to feel separated and angry as we have fought to shine in our femme uniqueness.We fight to be seen as FEMME, not a hetero feminine woman. It isn’t about jealousy, it’s about feeling that we belong in this community.

One thing that we have is that butches are attracted to us. If they desire straight (heater) women, we wonder where we really fit in.

If i were to come up with a list of people i am sexually attracted to, not one straight man or woman would come to mind.

[~ocean]

I've been referred to by STRAIGHT woman as June Clever ~ maybe to them I seemed that way ~ wasn't about the way I dressed cause I dressed very different ~ it was because I tended to my family and they along w/ my wife came first in my life and priority ~ The woman that did the June Clever reference were also drinking drug abusing mothers who had a lot to be ashamed of. I always took it where it came from. Aside from the 50's garb June wore the fact she cared for her family & children was always respectful way of looking at a parent.

[girl_dee]

I've been referred to by STRAIGHT woman as June Clever ~ maybe to them I seemed that way ~ wasn't about the way I dressed cause I dressed very different ~ it was because I tended to my family and they along w/ my wife came first in my life and priority ~ The woman that did the June Clever reference were also drinking drug abusing mothers who had a lot to be ashamed of. I always took it where it came from. Aside from the 50's garb June wore the fact she cared for her family & children was always respectful way of looking at a parent.


did it piss you the hell OFF being referred to as a straight woman?

Why can’t femme be a gender in the real world! ?

[~ocean]

did it piss you the hell OFF being referred to as a straight woman?

Why can’t femme be a gender in the real world! ?


Dee you know if you don't look butch your always perceived as a straight woman lol ~ BUT I had a rainbow bumper sticker, a gay woman's decal on my car window , my key chain had a rainbow flag that was very obvious. , I wore a pink garnet triangle pinky ring, a Proviencetown bumper sticker on the back window, I seriously think people r blinded by a woman's looks.

[Kätzchen]

This whole Queen Latifah bend in the conversation is interesting to me. First, because I absolutely love her and, second, because although she resonates powerful, confident, badass woman to me....she has never read "butch"....with the exception of the character she played in Set It Off.

I wonder why we want to immediately assign "butch" to women with energy and strength that is traditionally deemed masculine.

I wouldn't say that I have any masculine energy....like zero. I'm not girly-girly, but I've even been surprised when I see myself on video that my gestures and body language are far more traditionally "feminine" than I would have thought.

However, in my work life, I'm in charge of project teams...and frequently what we call "tiger teams" - specialists who are charged with relentlessly hunting down and killing flaws in the design or function of the project. They aren't easy people to coordinate at times....and I am in charge of keeping them all on track, on time, on budget and working together. In my meetings, and in my projects, there is no doubt who is in charge. I speak softly, I am polite....and I am in fucking charge. Overstep my bounds and you (general you) will learn that quickly as you pull back a bloody stump....regardless of the title you wear in the company.

I think it's a fallacy that women have to have any masculine energy at all to be powerful. I also think it's a fallacy that they have to be "bitchy" to be in charge.

I can be soft, feminine, even quiet....and absolutely in charge.

My favorite post was Jo's.....

Particularly the ideas I highlighted with bold font in Jo's post.

<<<<<~~ Quiet, reserved, soft, polite, yet absolutely in charge of my own life.