"Stud" versus "Butch"

[Girl_On_Fire]

Hello,

Curious femme here. Lately, I've noticed on certain lesbian websites butches are referred to as "studs". This seems to be a generational thing with younger butches especially using the term. I find if off-putting because to me the term "stud" implies some type of breeding stock.

Thoughts on this?

[Corkey]

One word...culture.

[Graham]

Hello,

Curious femme here. Lately, I've noticed on certain lesbian websites butches are referred to as "studs". This seems to be a generational thing with younger butches especially using the term. I find if off-putting because to me the term "stud" implies some type of breeding stock.

Thoughts on this?

you're showing our age here

[Ebon]

Like brother Corkey said, it's a cultural thing. From my own personal experience I've only ever heard African American or Latino butches refer to themselves as studs. I don't think that they see themselves as livestock but rather handsome masculine women. Just like some straight women call men that they find attractive studs.

[Girl_On_Fire]

Like brother Corkey said, it's a cultural thing. From my own personal experience I've only ever heard African American or Latino butches refer to themselves as studs. I don't think that they see themselves as livestock but rather handsome masculine women. Just like some straight women call men that they find attractive studs.

*laughs @ 'livestock'*

Okay, maybe it is a cultural thing. There's nothing wrong with it, I was just wondering where it came from. I just happened to see 'stud' as meaning one thing. I had a picture of a prize stallion in my head. (*giggles*) That doesn't mean that's what the person had in mind.

[Chancie]

Stud (http://lesbianidentity.blogspot.com/2009/11/stud-butch.html?m=1) isn't a new term and there are probably a few references online, if you googled a bit.

[Corkey]

It is nothing to be laughed at, unless of course one is not educated about cultures. Perhaps looking about the site will correct this? Just a suggestion.

[Daywalker]

Stud, Macha and Aggressive are just a couple of Identities that have
evolved over the last decade or so within the history of those
Identifying masculine, they do not replace Butch as an
Identity nor do these terms dictate pronouns.
Or sexual preference.

Self Identity is an empowering experience, and being able to express
that with a term that feels right is awesome. Butch is not a one
term fits all, especially in a Community that is becoming
more beautifully diverse every day.

:LGBTQFlag:

:daywalker:

[The_Lady_Snow]

Hello,

Curious femme here. Lately, I've noticed on certain lesbian websites butches are referred to as "studs". This seems to be a generational thing with younger butches especially using the term. I find if off-putting because to me the term "stud" implies some type of breeding stock.

Thoughts on this?



Hi,

Studs, daddies, aggressives, tomboys, papis, machas are all cutural terms used by some folks. I don't think it's generational it's always been out there as long as I can remember. I do believe that the internet and social media have made the words more popular.

I'd leave any further animal references out when it comes to these particular terms.

[girl_dee]

i'm not all that versed but i've never heard stud used when referring to butch.

[Daywalker]

i'm not all that versed but i've never heard stud used when referring to butch.


That's because they are not the same thing.




:weedsmoke:

:daywalker:

[Girl_On_Fire]

I wasn't saying that I saw people who identified as "studs" as animals. I was saying that's the only way I'd ever heard that term used before until very recently. I thought it would start an interesting discussion, which is why I didn't just "Google" it just for my own knowledge.

I meant no offense to anyone.

[Daywalker]

I'd like to add that on occasion the Mrs Day will holler
at me with a 'Hey, Stud...' here n there, but it's
not the same thing as Stud - the Identity term.
:smelling-flower:

:daywalker:

[The_Lady_Snow]

I wasn't saying that I saw people who identified as "studs" as animals. I was saying that's the only way I'd ever heard that term used before until very recently. I thought it would start an interesting discussion, which is why I didn't just "Google" it just for my own knowledge.

I meant no offense to anyone.


:) I think it would be a great conversation to be had.

[Corkey]

I wasn't saying that I saw people who identified as "studs" as animals. I was saying that's the only way I'd ever heard that term used before until very recently. I thought it would start an interesting discussion, which is why I didn't just "Google" it just for my own knowledge.

I meant no offense to anyone.

How about instead of getting defensive, admit the foul, and one take a look through the Forums, there is a plethora of information in the Butch Zone. That way no one gets their nose bent outta shape. This way you get some info under your belt, and don't have to apologize your way out of a sticky situation. Still a suggestion.

[Girl_On_Fire]

How about instead of getting defensive, admit the foul, and one take a look through the Forums, there is a plethora of information in the Butch Zone. That way no one gets their nose bent outta shape. This way you get some info under your belt, and don't have to apologize your way out of a sticky situation. Still a suggestion.

Corkey,

I have absolutely no idea what you're so upset about. I'm not being defensive at all. I'm explaining why I decided to start this as a thread instead of just looking it up. I'm not bent out of shape either. I'm just genuinely confused by your response.

(I didn't mean to 'thank' your response. Slipped finger.)

I'm lost.

[QueenofSmirks]

I wasn't saying that I saw people who identified as "studs" as animals. I was saying that's the only way I'd ever heard that term used before until very recently. I thought it would start an interesting discussion, which is why I didn't just "Google" it just for my own knowledge.

I meant no offense to anyone.

I think it's perfectly fine that you asked the question and nowhere did I see you equate the term used for butches as animals. I understood that you have heard the term used to represent "animal husbandry" as it is termed, essentially, "breeding". I know you tried to be light about it, and that's how I took it. If you can't ask these questions here, then you can't ask them anywhere. These forums are supposed to be supportive, so I hope you feel that your question received adequate and sincere attention. I saw some others answered essentially what I would have answered... it's more of a "culture" thing than an age or geographical thing. Terms have and will continue to be introduced to our community and evolve over time.

[Girl_On_Fire]

I think it's perfectly fine that you asked the question and nowhere did I see you equate the term used for butches as animals. I understood that you have heard the term used to represent "animal husbandry" as it is termed, essentially, "breeding". I know you tried to be light about it, and that's how I took it. If you can't ask these questions here, then you can't ask them anywhere. These forums are supposed to be supportive, so I hope you feel that your question received adequate and sincere attention. I saw some others answered essentially what I would have answered... it's more of a "culture" thing than an age or geographical thing. Terms have and will continue to be introduced to our community and evolve over time.

Yes, that is exactly what I meant. Thank you for the explanation and the support. :)

[Corkey]

Corkey,

I have absolutely no idea what you're so upset about. I'm not being defensive at all. I'm explaining why I decided to start this as a thread instead of just looking it up. I'm not bent out of shape either. I'm just genuinely confused by your response.

(I didn't mean to 'thank' your response. Slipped finger.)

I'm lost.

LOL Soooo not upset, thought I'd save you some embarrassment. I'm done. Perhaps you need to think about you're seeming cluelessness about peoples gender expressions to get it. Bye bye.

[macele]

forget it. it's saturday night.

[QueenofSmirks]

Seriously? Everyone needs to take a deep breath. The OP even stated that the term is disturbing to her because she has heard it used in stock breeding. For those of you who don't know what that is, it's a term used on farms and ranches and other places on the planet for breeding animals. She did NOT equate animals to butches, so get over it already.

[Glenn]

But..why!?:weedsmoke:
That's because they are not the same thing.




:weedsmoke:

:daywalker:

[The_Lady_Snow]

Seriously? Everyone needs to take a deep breath. The OP even stated that the term is disturbing to her because she has heard it used in stock breeding. For those of you who don't know what that is, it's a term used on farms and ranches and other places on the planet for breeding animals. She did NOT equate animals to butches, so get over it already.


I think and I am only taking a guess because this tends to happens with this particular convo when it comes to animals referenced and POC cultural terms. Folks get sensitive when the animal/stud/POC reference is all lumped together. I don't think it was the case this time but maybe that's why it's a sore spot for some folk.

Hopefully some of the community members who identify as such can come in and help Girl on Fire:)

[Arwen]

So, interesting topic. I had never heard the word aggressive or stud used to mean butch until I hit the other site and then here. I understand them to be cultural usage (as has been stated).

I was familiar with stud being used for bio males (but not aggressive). As in "Hey stud, how's it hanging?"

Now, if you want to dig into this etymologically, then, yes, stud does have a animal husbandry background.

However, for me, I think that the use of stud as a term for a butch woman comes from the hetero male use of the word and not the farm hand. The same as "bud" or "buddy" or "bro" or "compadre". Capiche`?

Now I do know some butches who are animals (rawr rawr) but I don't know any who wouldn't understand that if I said, "Hey stud" I wasn't seeing them as some massive-donged animal in the paddock, but more as some massively sexy human that I wanted to flirt with.

That having been said, I'd like to pause to remind everyone that our dear friend Mercury is in cranky mode and will go into full on "everyone's stupid" mode on Tuesday.

Which ought to make poll day uber fun. :|

[The_Lady_Snow]

Mercury in Retro BUZZ KILL!!!

How long does it last????

:overreaction:

[Martina]

How much more stupid can the Republicans get? Maybe they'll forget it's Election Day and stay home.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101772451

[girl_dee]

Girl on Fire

i find this subject matter very interesting and found your approach to asking about it very amicable.

i'm interested to see what others say and i tend to learn lots from these conversations.

Thank you!

[BstlMyhart]

I wasn't saying that I saw people who identified as "studs" as animals. I was saying that's the only way I'd ever heard that term used before until very recently. I thought it would start an interesting discussion, which is why I didn't just "Google" it just for my own knowledge.

I meant no offense to anyone.



You really aren't being offensive. Ask anything you like anytime...this IS what we are here for...support.

[julieisafemme]

I agree with Corkey, from what I have learned in the community, that butch and stud or aggressive are not the same thing. Last year there was a huge kerfuffle in the community when Butch Voices decided to add "masculine of center" to their mission statement. Many butches were upset about this. The organizers maintained that the term MoC was more inclusive to communities of color who did not necessarily feel comfortable with the term butch.

I know that my partner came out in the 70s and that in his community people did use the term stud. I don't think it is that new.

Girl on Fire I don't think you meant to be offensive but it is important to understand that the question as worded was offensive to some. My goodness I have said any number of things on forums that have offended people. I take it as a learning experience and I am grateful for every person who did point things out to me!

[girl_dee]

i agree!

we were all new once and not familiar with terms and language. We all had to learn from others since there is no manual (or is there?).

i still stumble and i been around a long damn time.

i will always enjoy conversations that are brought forth from a place of honesty and sincerity, which i found she is. She seems willing to accept that even unintentional words can offend, and we must be careful of that.

i'm looking forward to more on this subject !

[Martina]

Two points

One, it is always good to be careful when asking about ID's. Perhaps more careful than the OP was.

Two, I am thankful we didn't dogpile the OP. I just am.

[Gemme]

Most of my thoughts have pretty much been covered, but to touch on a point Girl_on_Fire referenced in her OP, I have noticed that some of the younger generation of our community is using that term, and not related to the African American cultural connection.

I think it's interesting that the term is being adopted by a group that it may not normally have been associated with but I feel a tiny bit of hesitancy in that the original cultural connection may be lost along the way.

[Greyson]

Most of my thoughts have pretty much been covered, but to touch on a point Girl_on_Fire referenced in her OP, I have noticed that some of the younger generation of our community is using that term, and not related to the African American cultural connection.

I think it's interesting that the term is being adopted by a group that it may not normally have been associated with but I feel a tiny bit of hesitancy in that the original cultural connection may be lost along the way.

Can you say A P P R O P R I A T I O N?

Gemme, maybe I should clarify? I am not saying you are appropriating. I do beleive there are instances when appropriation does happen. You get the goodies without the price that has been paid.

[Gemme]

Can you say A P P R O P R I A T I O N?

Gemme, maybe I should clarify? I am not saying you are appropriating. I do beleive there are instances when appropriation does happen. You get the goodies without the price that has been paid.

Good, because I'm not claiming that term. :)

I can see how someone who does adopt this term might be appropriating.

[kittygrrl]

hmm...i don't think I ever have used this term ..however, i do understand it's used mostly as a way of expressing "buddy" or "hot-sexy-amazing"..but you shouldn't take for granted the person you are addressing will appreciate your greeting/endearment..especially, at this time of year..tip toeing thru the tulips, doesn't mean we shouldn't watch for the unwelcoming cowpie:hk34:

[Massive]

For me personally, stud just isn't a term I'm familiar with or have ever heard being used here in the UK, so thank you to the OP for broaching the subject, I'm enjoying seeing this being discussed, as far as I'm concerned it's better to ask a question than to make assumptions or remain ignorant.

[Ginger]

Can you say A P P R O P R I A T I O N?

Gemme, maybe I should clarify? I am not saying you are appropriating. I do beleive there are instances when appropriation does happen. You get the goodies without the price that has been paid.



Sometimes, though, "appropriating" is a way of subverting power dynamics in a cultural or social construct. Members of our community appropriate male pronouns. Gays and lesbians appropriate straight marriage rituals. And so on.

Sometimes appropriation is kind of thrilling.

[Daktari]

Appropriation = using a name/label/title/id/term without "paying the price for the goodies"?

If I read this correctly then I suggest anyone under, say 50, possibly 60yrs old, shouldn't 'appropriate' queer, dyke, butch, femme, et alia, because they didn't pay the price alongside our older brothers and sisters fighting for visibility, the right not to have to hide who they/we were/are and a measure of equality way back in the day?

...or maybe I'm just being dense today? :blink:




Back on topic...as with Mass., it's not a term I'm familiar with using in the 'gay' 'community' over here in UK. Sadly, it reminds me of a bio bloke who's a bit too full of himself and reckons he's a shit hot lover. I will be very happy to replace this image with a more positive one.

I look forward to seeing what the name/label/title/id/other means in other places and/or cultures.

[Sparkle]

Back on topic...as with Mass., it's not a term I'm familiar with using in the 'gay' 'community' over here in UK. Sadly, it reminds me of a bio bloke who's a bit too full of himself and reckons he's a shit hot lover. I will be very happy to replace this image with a more positive one.[/B]

For me personally, stud just isn't a term I'm familiar with or have ever heard being used here in the UK, so thank you to the OP for broaching the subject, I'm enjoying seeing this being discussed, as far as I'm concerned it's better to ask a question than to make assumptions or remain ignorant.

Actually 'Stud' is used in the UK, but perhaps not as widely as in the US. In the UK 'Stud' is also an ID that is similar to (but not synonymous with) 'Butch' in that it is used mainly by people who fall masculine of centre on the gender identity spectrum and it is primarily used by people of colour (as far as my experience goes).

This film was featured in the LGBT - BFI London film festival this past year.
oVygCAcbJbU

[Scottish MacDaddy]

Hello,

Curious femme here. Lately, I've noticed on certain lesbian websites butches are referred to as "studs". This seems to be a generational thing with younger butches especially using the term. I find if off-putting because to me the term "stud" implies some type of breeding stock.

Thoughts on this?


Hi Girl,

Stud can also be defined as the structural part of a wall that eventually holds up the house itself...And isn't that what being butch is about? Strength, tenacity of will and structure....all a part of the foundation of life.

So, next time you hear stud and it offends you to think of it in "breeding stock" terms....think of it in this way...

there are always two sides to every story....just how you look at it that makes the world of difference.

MacDaddy

[DapperButch]

As I understand the term:

Sometimes, though, "appropriating" is a way of subverting power dynamics in a cultural or social construct. Members of our community appropriate male pronouns. Gays and lesbians appropriate straight marriage rituals. And so on.

Sometimes appropriation is kind of thrilling.

The difference is that you are using the term/behaviours of a group that has more power than you do. That is why this would not be defined as appropriation.

Appropriation = using a name/label/title/id/term without "paying the price for the goodies"?

If I read this correctly then I suggest anyone under, say 50, possibly 60yrs old, shouldn't 'appropriate' queer, dyke, butch, femme, et alia, because they didn't pay the price alongside our older brothers and sisters fighting for visibility, the right not to have to hide who they/we were/are and a measure of equality way back in the day?

...or maybe I'm just being dense today? :blink:






This wouldn't be appropriation because it is the same group.

--------------

To me, this is yet another example of white privilege.

[*Anya*]

I also encourage you to watch a documentary that is a few years old called The Aggressives.

It followed a group of multi-identified POC in New York City over a period of years.

It was an education for me for me about a part of our culture that I knew nothing about.

Many of those featured, did identify as Studs (also trans, butch, lesbian).

I watched it on Hulu but believe it is also Netflix streaming.

[The_Lady_Snow]

As I understand the term:



The difference is that you are using the term/behaviours of a group that has more power than you do. That is why this would not be defined as appropriation.



This wouldn't be appropriation because it is the same group.

--------------

To me, this is yet another example of white privilege.


When someone who is not in the culture and uses that cultures labels, definitions, genders, traditions, etc etc it IS appropriation.

Sometimes I want to look at white folk and ask:

Really? you also want macha, stud, Pappi? Really?

Cause you don't own enough already?


Thanks Dapper for saying something.

[Sparkle]

When someone who is not in the culture and uses that cultures labels, definitions, genders, traditions, etc etc it IS appropriation.

Sometimes I want to look at white folk and ask:

Really? you also want macha, stud, Pappi? Really?

Cause you don't own enough already?


Thanks Dapper for saying something.


I completely agree with you and

I feel like a younger generation of queers (regardless of race) adopting an ID like 'Stud' has less of an icky appropriation feeling than if they were to co-opt 'Macha', 'Pappi' or 'Aggressive' because while 'Stud' has historically been used by queer POC it feels less connected to a single group or culture. 'Aggressive', 'Macha' and 'Pappi' would feel like really icky appropriation to me, because those IDs feel very specific and very closely tied to culture, to me.

'Stud' (noun) and stud (adjective) crosses a few cultures and common uses. It's not uncommon, for example, for it to be used as a descriptor for many different male sub-groups. Just like 'Butch' is commonly used as both an identity and a descriptor in gay-male and heterosexual male communities.

But, I do come from a place of white privilege and I recognize my feelings on this could be an example of that privilege, I'm completely open to hearing if people feel differently.

[Metro]

I completely agree with you and

I feel like a younger generation of queers (regardless of race) adopting an ID like 'Stud' has less of an icky appropriation feeling than if they were to co-opt 'Macha', 'Pappi' or 'Aggressive' because while 'Stud' has historically been used by queer POC it feels less connected to a single group or culture. 'Aggressive', 'Macha' and 'Pappi' would feel like really icky appropriation to me, because those IDs feel very specific and very closely tied to culture, to me.

'Stud' (noun) and stud (adjective) crosses a few cultures and common uses. It's not uncommon, for example, for it to be used as a descriptor for many different male sub-groups. Just like 'Butch' is commonly used as both an identity and a descriptor in gay-male and heterosexual male communities.

But, I do come from a place of white privilege and I recognize my feelings on this could be an example of that privilege, I'm completely open to hearing if people feel differently.

When newly out in the lgbtqi community I did not know or understand the cultural ties to the ID of "Stud" -- because, like Sparkle, I came from a place of white privilege. I knew it only as a descriptor of male sub-groups. Now I know differently... and also agree with Sparkle that being open to hearing other perspectives and feelings is a good thing. Diversity is one of the aspects of living in a large metropolitan area that I absolutely LOVE -- because these different perspectives enrich one and all.

[Daywalker]

I was born and raised in the Oakland Bay Area.

I feel this was geographically to my advantage as far as
exposure to a more diverse world. That does not
change the privilege factors attached to being
White but it sure as hell changed the
way I see things as a result.

:weedsmoke:

:daywalker:

[Daktari]

Actually 'Stud' is used in the UK, but perhaps not as widely as in the US. In the UK 'Stud' is also an ID that is similar to (but not synonymous with) 'Butch' in that it is used mainly by people who fall masculine of centre on the gender identity spectrum and it is primarily used by people of colour (as far as my experience goes).

This film was featured in the LGBT - BFI London film festival this past year.
oVygCAcbJbU

Just out of interest, where did you hear it in the UK and did you hear it often?

As I said above, I've never heard it in UK except as an almost perjorative for a big headed cis-guy/butch/genderqueer/trans-guy (apologies if my use of nomenclature is not considered 'standard'.). As a person who ids at genderqueer or that (clunky) phrase, masculine of centre I've never heard it used about myself or anyone like me regardless of colour or culture anywhere in the country...but then I'm a northerner and don't get to the Big cosmopolitan Smoke of London anymore; nor have I heard it in Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Glasgow or Newcastle either I'm not saying it's never used just that it must be a pretty exclusive minority. Maybe it's a south of Watford Gap thang. :|

:chaplin:

ETA Yup, I have to own my clueless white privilege (never heard of such a thing until I joined up here; That's why I read some of the more educative threads here.

:| :chaplin:

[Sparkle]

Just out of interest, where did you hear it in the UK and did you hear it often?

As I said above, I've never heard it in UK except as an almost perjorative for a big headed cis-guy/butch/genderqueer/trans-guy (apologies if my use of nomenclature is not considered 'standard'.). As a person who ids at genderqueer or that (clunky) phrase, masculine of centre I've never heard it used about myself or anyone like me regardless of colour or culture anywhere in the country...but then I'm a northerner and don't get to the Big cosmopolitan Smoke of London anymore; nor have I heard it in Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Glasgow or Newcastle either I'm not saying it's never used just that it must be a pretty exclusive minority. Maybe it's a south of Watford Gap thang. :|

:chaplin:



I knew self-identified Studs and Aggressives when I lived and worked in east and sarf London. Which is not to say there aren't self-identified S/As all over the UK - because I am sure there are. The areas of London I lived, worked and socialized were very culturally diverse and quite queer, and that is probably why it is more familiar to me. As a sweeping generalization, I would say, the majority of people who ID'd as Stud or Aggressive were POC, young-ish (40 and under) & inner-city/urban oriented queers.

But as to your supposition that it is only used by an exclusive minority...hmmmm...I think I would extend that thought and say that I found that gender-related IDs were used by a minority of queers that I knew in the UK, when I lived there. (8years ago now and lots has changed for sure, especially in relation to genderqueer identities.)

I didn't know a lot of queers who claimed Butch/Femme IDs either. There seemed to be an eschewing of "labels" regardless of individuals' gender presentation or desires/personal attractions. I knew a lot of queers who fell soundly to the masculine or feminine side of the gender spectrum but not a whole lot who embraced Butch (as a noun) or Femme (as a noun) IDs.

Perhaps that is why Stud/Aggressive seems a small sub-group to you?

I think there in lies another interesting cultural difference between the US and the UK.

Or perhaps that is where the queer culture in US is moving too, but I'm have a myopic view because of my ID and the places I socialize/find community.

[Ginger]

I also encourage you to watch a documentary that is a few years old called The Aggressives.

It followed a group of multi-identified POC in New York City over a period of years.

It was an education for me for me about a part of our culture that I knew nothing about.

Many of those featured, did identify as Studs (also trans, butch, lesbian).

I watched it on Hulu but believe it is also Netflix streaming.


I saw it at the Film Forum on 13th Street in the West Village, back when it came out.

I was struck by how much the women were struggling economically, and how they talked about getting their GED.

Later I started a free GED class at the LGBT center in NYC and I think there are studies that back up what I saw, that people who are outliers on the culturally defined, gender-expression scale are more likely to struggle with education and poverty.

Also, they are more likely to go into careers that are less typical for their sex, which shows their perseverance and resourcefulness.

At some point in the late nineties, young studs and aggressors and other lesbian and butch/femme women of color began frequenting Henrietta Hudson's, a lesbian bar in the West Village, and its demographic changed dramatically.

I heard a white lesbian complain about the change and express her racist dismay (I got into a huge argument with her...lets just say I didn't fit in well with that particular girlfriend and her crowd, kinda funny as I look back), but to me when I walked past the long line out front of the bar, all I saw were incredibly young, it seemed, butches, studs, and aggressors in little groups dressed for a night out in the clubs, probably hoping to impress girls, like the kids in my classes at that time.

It's not my culture but I am surrounded by many cultures here in NY and somehow in all morphs into something that does feel like my culture, because when I get into a less diverse cultural setting I feel uneasy, like I will be "found out" and not welcome there, though I pass for fitting in at first, which yes, I know, is a privilege I can work to my advantage economically and career wise—and my GED students including the studs didn't have that option.

[Daktari]

It is my experience in the gay/queer/trans/b/f and kink cultures over here for many, many years (25+yrs) I have never heard anyone label themselves as you suggest. I do understand that some folks where you lived used it which is why I say it's a small minority because it cannot be extrapolated to include the rest of the country. I know we appear a small country to you lot but there is a lot more regional variation than you probably realise, even within the different countries that make up the UK.

However, It is also my long time experience that self empowering labels are anathema to many within the wider 'gay' 'community' but not so much in the pan sexual kink 'community'. It is this that led me on my own path to individual gender expression. :|

Maybe it's just me turning into a reet old fart and not knowing the yoof lingo anymore. :winky:

...and on that non-bombshell, I'll back away, leave you to the discussion and lurk a little to learn. Just please don't speak for the majority of us outside urban inner city London please. :cheesy:

:chaplin:

[Sparkle]

...and on that non-bombshell, I'll back away, leave you to the discussion and lurk a little to learn. Just please don't speak for the majority of us outside urban inner city London please. :cheesy:

:chaplin:


I wasn't really thinking (and didn't mean to imply) that there is a proliferation of self-ID'd Studs and Aggressives all over Blighty. :) But I would guess you'd find people who ID like that in Manchester and Glasgow, maybe Brighton, possibly Liverpool... essentially, as you note, in the heavily urban areas where there are larger queer communities and thus more diversity within those communities.

[Daktari]

I wasn't really thinking (and didn't mean to imply) that there is a proliferation of self-ID'd Studs and Aggressives all over Blighty. :) But I would guess you'd find people who ID like that in Manchester and Glasgow, maybe Brighton, possibly Liverpool... essentially, as you note, in the heavily urban areas where there are larger queer communities and thus more diversity within those communities.

Having spent time in some heavily urban areas, particularly Edinburgh, Manchester, Leeds, N'castle and Brum, but not so much Liverpool or Brighton, I can still assure you I've never heard it there. Maybe I just don't come across those folks on my queer troubadour travels. I really hope one day I do.

I bet ya our very own metrosexual, Ciaran, has heard the term used though; like I say, I'm just a provincial 'hick', albeit a rather eccentric one :cheesy:


...and now I really am gonna try to lurk-n-learn :groucho:

[CountryGirl]

...someone named Studmuffin.

[ruffryder]

I'd like to add that on occasion the Mrs Day will holler
at me with a 'Hey, Stud...' here n there, but it's
not the same thing as Stud - the Identity term.
:smelling-flower:


I've heard the term first in this context and I've been called "stud" and "stud muffin" in reference to cool or super hero like.


I've also heard butches referred to that term "stud" also and mostly on some lesbian websites.

Interesting about the cultural thing. I do know it's referred to butches. Is it more referred to for male identified butches? Curious to hear more and how others use this term.

[Massive]

Actually 'Stud' is used in the UK, but perhaps not as widely as in the US. In the UK 'Stud' is also an ID that is similar to (but not synonymous with) 'Butch' in that it is used mainly by people who fall masculine of centre on the gender identity spectrum and it is primarily used by people of colour (as far as my experience goes).

This film was featured in the LGBT - BFI London film festival this past year.
oVygCAcbJbU

Be that as it may, I have never heard the term used in the North of England, nor in Southern Scotland and I've been living in this area for my entire life ... And I've been an active member of my local gay scene the entire time. Remember, there are other places than London over here! Some of which have just as thriving a scene as there.

[Parker]

I heard the terms several years ago when watching a documentary.
I think it might be the same doc that Anya and Island Scout are talking about, which is, I think, this one:

The Aggressives 1/6 (LGBT Documentary)

"A documentary look at women who prefer to dress and act as men
and who participate in NYC's predominantly African-American lesbian drag balls. (2005)"

IVdqdbNtg40


If you go to view the youtube video at youtube, you can catch the other 5 parts
- I just checked both Amazon and Netflix and it is not available to stream on either.

[Martina]

God, we sound white. I guess because, for the most part, we are. I guess my white privilege allows me to forget that sometimes.

[Sparkle]

Be that as it may, I have never heard the term used in the North of England, nor in Southern Scotland and I've been living in this area for my entire life ... And I've been an active member of my local gay scene the entire time. Remember, there are other places than London over here! Some of which have just as thriving a scene as there.

Hi Massive,

I know there is much more to Great Britain than London, I promise. :) I had the privilege to experience some of it (though not nearly enough). I lived there for 7 years, I consider myself blessed to have made my home there for a while. There are many really wonderful cities and areas outside of London; and yes, other thriving, vibrant queer scenes beyond London. I agree! :)

I only mentioned London because Daktari's asked me 'where' my experience of Stud culture was in the UK. I wasn't comparing London to any other city or region in the UK, or placing a value on London's queer scene versus any other.

I don't think there is anything wrong with you or Daktari not having met anyone who IDs as a stud. And I wasn't trying to demean your experience in, or contribution to, your queer communities.

I think it is just an issue of racial diversity. When I lived and socialized in a very racially diverse queer community I knew people who ID'd as Stud/Aggressive. I currently live in a very homogenic community and I don't know anyone who ID's as a Stud here.

Lucky for us we have BFP, we can share our experiences and trade ideas and learn more about one another.




Sorry for the tangent, OP. :)

[Massive]

Hi Massive,

I know there is much more to Great Britain than London, I promise. :) I had the privilege to experience some of it (though not nearly enough). I lived there for 7 years, I consider myself blessed to have made my home there for a while. There are many really wonderful cities and areas outside of London; and yes, other thriving, vibrant queer scenes beyond London. I agree! :)

I only mentioned London because Daktari's asked me 'where' my experience of Stud culture was in the UK. I wasn't comparing London to any other city or region in the UK, or placing a value on London's queer scene versus any other.

I don't think there is anything wrong with you or Daktari not having met anyone who IDs as a stud. And I wasn't trying to demean your experience in, or contribution to, your queer communities.

I think it is just an issue of racial diversity. When I lived and socialized in a very racially diverse queer community I knew people who ID'd as Stud/Aggressive. I currently live in a very homogenic community and I don't know anyone who ID's as a Stud here.

Lucky for us we have BFP, we can share our experiences and trade ideas and learn more about one another.




Sorry for the tangent, OP. :)


Thank you Sparkle, I didn't mean to come across as so defensive, I'm just used to people making the assumption that I'm from London.

As an aside, the one part of living in rural england is unfortunately, the lack of rural diversity, it makes me cringe when a POC is taking a holiday here and local people stop and stare, it just horrifies me!

[Daywalker]

God, we sound white. I guess because, for the most part, we are. I guess my white privilege allows me to forget that sometimes.


I thought the same thing, but wasn't sure if it was just
my own perspective reading it that way, so thanks for out-louding it.

Folks who feel the need to buck any Identity due to their perspective
having already ruled it a minority term...should take a moment to marinate on why.

:daywalker:

[Corkey]

Sometimes, though, "appropriating" is a way of subverting power dynamics in a cultural or social construct. Members of our community appropriate male pronouns. Gays and lesbians appropriate straight marriage rituals. And so on.

Sometimes appropriation is kind of thrilling.

Sorry been gone all day and this just hit me wrong.
*I* being a male in a female body have *appropriated* nothing. I am who I am, and I am Male. I'm sorry if this doesn't fit with the whole white privilege thing, but it is true none the less. Sometimes I wish folks would put away the microscope and learn that there are whole societies that live just fine, minus the privilege. If the UK isn't as knowledgeable about Studs, Aggressive, and other Pronouns, I would suggest it may be due to culture. Again, Culture is the apt usage of Pronouns that people use to express who they are to a society that hold them at arms length, with privilege.

[Samurai Wanderer]

Thanks for this thread, Girl On Fire :) I've been struggling with B-F terminologies in general, so it's helpful to see threads about these terms being discussed. While I see the sense of simply googling, it's a passive act. I find reading active discussions on the topic more interesting. Language and semantics are ever evolving, to reflect the people who use them. Aren't we the ones who collectively 'own' these terms, and who are most active in deepening and evolving the language that we use?

I just happened to see 'stud' as meaning one thing. I had a picture of a prize stallion in my head. (*giggles*)

... I thought that's as good a meaning of 'stud' as any :cowboihorse:

[Samurai Wanderer]

However, It is also my long time experience that self empowering labels are anathema to many within the wider 'gay' 'community' but not so much in the pan sexual kink 'community'. It is this that led me on my own path to individual gender expression. :|


I don't quite understand this part. Why would the gay community want to avoid self empowering labels? Aren't we in the business of self-empowering?

[always2late]

Growing up in a multi-cultural area of Brooklyn, I heard the term "papi" used, but it was primarily used in a straight setting. I'd also heard the term "stud"...again primarily in straight discourse. I never heard the terms "stud" "aggressive" or "papi" used in the LGBT context until I joined the LGBT club at my college. From my own experience, I found this to be more an issue of age than of diversity. I live, and work, in a very diverse community, however, it wasn't until I spent time with the 20-something age group that I heard the terms used frequently. Now...I'm not saying that the terms weren't, or haven't, been used in a cultural context for many years..just that I'd never heard them. I will say that, when I joined the club at my college, it made my heart sing to hear young butches, studs, aggressives, and every other self-identifier used with such freedom and pride! It has, and still does, make my heart leap a bit when I see the younger generation...those coming after me...embrace who they are with whatever ID they choose so freely and with such an unabashed sense of self. I admire them, I cheer for them, I support them...and I love them all. :)

[Daktari]

I don't quite understand this part. Why would the gay community want to avoid self empowering labels? Aren't we in the business of self-empowering?

Yes 'we' are.
However I find that in the wider 'gay community' I encounter here in UK, including many of my 'gay' friends, folks don't use the labels we embrace here in the b/f world. Mostly I find the attitude to be "I'm just me, I don't need labels". I have observed that those who embrace labels are those who don't 'fit', into the wider gay 'community'.

It is my experience that most folks I come into contact with, homo or hetero, don't understand the need for self empowering, self identifying labels...until a patient person explains the need.

:chaplin:

[Samurai Wanderer]

Yes 'we' are.
However I find that in the wider 'gay community' I encounter here in UK, including many of my 'gay' friends, folks don't use the labels we embrace here in the b/f world. Mostly I find the attitude to be "I'm just me, I don't need labels". I have observed that those who embrace labels are those who don't 'fit', into the wider gay 'community'.

It is my experience that most folks I come into contact with, homo or hetero, don't understand the need for self empowering, self identifying labels...until a patient person explains the need.

:chaplin:

It's been overwhelming to sift through and keep up with the labels, I had given up. After finding this community, it feels that for once, there are labels that I might be able to identify with. Thank you for explaining, I've never thought of labels as self-empowering, yet I'm beginning to feel it even if I can't explain why.

[Daywalker]

I've been thinking about this a lot,
and I'm glad the question came up.


I wanted to say that with every label comes the dreaded stereotype.

Yet, if we do not have a way to differentiate with 'labels' things
get cloudy for some. I like to think of these categories
as 'descriptors' rather than labels.

Well the emerging generations of Studs, Ags, Aggressives, Machas
etc., also deal with being stereotyped within the Community.

Just like Butch folks, Femme folks and all under the rainbow folks have.

I have 2 links to share for thought

One is a U-TooB channel from StudzLife101.

http://www.youtube.com/user/StudzLife101?feature=watch


The other is this video...

Aj1kuCXAvqw

:daywalker:

[ruffryder]

I've only heard papi referred to for male identified individuals, gay or straight. My girl actually calls me papi = daddy. I also know mostly latin people, male and female, use the term to call younger latin males. . and guys call other guys papi too. At least here in Fl where I am. I'm sure when they use that term "papi" it's not in reference to daddy but instead a male they believe is good looking. Hence the term "papi chulo"

[Daywalker]

I've only heard papi referred to for male identified individuals, gay or straight. My girl actually calls me papi = daddy. I also know mostly latin people, male and female, use the term to call younger latin males. . and guys call other guys papi too. At least here in Fl where I am. I'm sure when they use that term "papi" it's not in reference to daddy but instead a male they believe is good looking. Hence the term "papi chulo"


On the other hand, I have a friend of 22 years who is Hispanic and
whose Femme calls her Papi and/or Poppi...her preferred pronoun is She.

So does not Identify as a male.

It's all relative...to me.

:aslpeacelove:


:daywalker:

[The_Lady_Snow]

>LINKYLOO< (http://q-roc.tv/shows/)


"Excuse Me Sir"


All the shows are actually all very informative, you'll have to look them up on YOU TUBE to watch them.

[Daywalker]

>LINKYLOO< (http://q-roc.tv/shows/)


"Excuse Me Sir"


All the shows are actually all very informative, you'll have to look them up on YOU TUBE to watch them.

I know Q-Roc.

I heart Q-Roc.

:weedsmoke:

:daywalker:

[The_Lady_Snow]

I know Q-Roc.

I heart Q-Roc.

:weedsmoke:

:daywalker:




Me too, when ruffryder mentioned only the cis male version of Papi I remember how lucky I was to have been around a diverse POC queer experience. I really urge folks to read/listen to Q-Roc's stuff it's very informative.

I wish more POC gender variant folks would come to BFP to share experiences and culture.

[julieisafemme]

Excellent post Mr. Day. I think of butch, femme, papi and other descriptors as you said as identities. A woman spoke at a conference we went to and she said labels are what others apply to you and identites are what you use to express yourself. I thought this was a great way of putting it. Are labels and identities the same thing? I don't think they are.




I've been thinking about this a lot,
and I'm glad the question came up.


I wanted to say that with every label comes the dreaded stereotype.

Yet, if we do not have a way to differentiate with 'labels' things
get cloudy for some. I like to think of these categories
as 'descriptors' rather than labels.

Well the emerging generations of Studs, Ags, Aggressives, Machas
etc., also deal with being stereotyped within the Community.

Just like Butch folks, Femme folks and all under the rainbow folks have.

I have 2 links to share for thought

One is a U-TooB channel from StudzLife101.

http://www.youtube.com/user/StudzLife101?feature=watch


The other is this video...

Aj1kuCXAvqw

:daywalker:

[Girl_On_Fire]

I've been thinking about this a lot,
and I'm glad the question came up.


I wanted to say that with every label comes the dreaded stereotype.

Yet, if we do not have a way to differentiate with 'labels' things
get cloudy for some. I like to think of these categories
as 'descriptors' rather than labels.

Well the emerging generations of Studs, Ags, Aggressives, Machas
etc., also deal with being stereotyped within the Community.

Just like Butch folks, Femme folks and all under the rainbow folks have.

I have 2 links to share for thought

One is a U-TooB channel from StudzLife101.

http://www.youtube.com/user/StudzLife101?feature=watch


The other is this video...

Aj1kuCXAvqw

:daywalker:

That was helpful, actually. Thank you. I think it's great this has turned into a real, diverse, cultural discussion. :)

[txdoc]

ViuOr55I4dY

Another Perspective...

[The_Lady_Snow]

ViuOr55I4dY

Another Perspective...



You're kidding me right?

What perspective is this?

[Chancie]

Because the narrator is so young,

I'm thinking about how I'd respond to one of my students.

With that lens, I want to have patience for her ignorance, but

Her 'Shut the fuck up' stance really bothers me.

It makes it impossible for me to try to disentangle her misconceptions.

[MissItalianDiva]

ViuOr55I4dY

Another Perspective...


I realize everyone has different perspectives but this whole video bothers me on so many different levels. I don't even know where to start so I think I will just end with WTF

[Dude]

but she's like totally been a lesbian for a year now

futch and stem<== strike them :hammer: from the record
thank you

[girl_dee]

she did manage to get ONE thing right, that femme does not = bottom, butch does not = top.

The rest is just sad. i hope her mom sees it.

[*Anya*]

but she's like totally been a lesbian for a year now



Young, young and more young, with white privilege "perspective" thrown in for good measure.

I feel for young, searching and questioning kids looking for answers :| on YouTube.

[julieisafemme]

Young, young and more young, with white privilege "perspective" thrown in for good measure.

I feel for young, searching and questioning kids looking for answers :| on YouTube.

It scares me to death. One day my daughter was watching some You Tube that her friend who was over said was hilarious. Our computer is "public" space so I was right there with them. It was a ninja video with these two boys, late teens, doing ninja style tree and then ninja style lion and then...ninja style faggot (!) with the word floating on the screen! I was appalled and immediately told them that was NOT acceptable and not funny and not to be shared or watched. I could not believe it!

Sorry for the derail. You Tube is scary.

[txdoc]

You're kidding me right?

What perspective is this?

Inanity my dear...

[The_Lady_Snow]

Inanity my dear...



So what was the point in posting a you tube that had zero to do with the convo?

please don't call me "dear" we're not homies:) thank you

[txdoc]

By the by...for those of you who thought I was intersecting an opinion, I was not. Perhaps my tag should have included a disclaimer. But I thought the speaker so inane that her self-important soliloquy would need no further disaffirmation.

[txdoc]

So what was the point in posting a you tube that had zero to do with the convo?

please don't call me "dear" we're not homies:) thank you

First of all, I did not mean to be disrespectful. That is not who I am. Secondly, your response felt like a slap. Just saying that it felt like being bullied. My perspective. And if that is what this site is about, then I would prefer to step away. There is enough of my life where I'm the one standing alone to protect others when they don't have a voice. Let's say that her opinion had been my opinion or understanding. Isn't there a better way to address it? Sometimes things are interjected into a conversation to begin a dialogue. I do not know you, but neither do you know me.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Oh for fucks sake I'm a bully because I'm not empathetic to what some white kid defined Stud as?

Oh please!

Maybe you should read what the thread is about or supposed to be about.

Unbelievable!

[txdoc]

Oh for fucks sake I'm a bully because I'm not empathetic to what some white kid defined Stud as?

Oh please!

Maybe you should read what the thread is about or supposed to be about.

Unbelievable!

I have read the post from the beginning, dissenting opinions and all. And I did not call you a bully. I actually said that I felt I was being bullied by posting something that did not take the turn you projected for the conversation. Why would anyone want to propose a differing opinion from yours when all they would get would be wtf and are you kidding? If you want to dialogue about it, let's dialogue.

For the record, who said anyone was empathetic with the "white kid."

[The_Lady_Snow]

You said you felt like you were bullied, semantics.

The person in the video starts out with


Don't tell me that I'm wrong BEFORE she goes into her descriptors of lesbian, butch, Stud, Femme identities.


Femme-- girls who look entirely straight and girly

Dykes- a whole other level of lesbian



Butch-- buzzed hair no make up over sized clothing



Stud-- All pictures of white kids in between butch or femme, girls with short hair sag from the belt in between a boy or girl. Always short hair wear make up or eye liner


Hence the justifiable WTF, btw I'm not the only one going WTF why you not referring to them as bullyish? Hmm?

[Corkey]

Why post something that folks would find offensive in the first place?
It is cultural, the ID Stud, I don't think that a privileged white youngster is an authority on POC culture.

[txdoc]

Why post something that folks would find offensive in the first place?
It is cultural, the ID Stud, I don't think that a privileged white youngster is an authority on POC culture.

Corkey,

Obviously I did not think it through and for that I do apologize. My intent was not to offend.

[Corkey]

Corkey,

Obviously I did not think it through and for that I do apologize. My intent was not to offend.

I'm not the only one who finds it so, obviously.

[Girl_On_Fire]

Why post something that folks would find offensive in the first place?
It is cultural, the ID Stud, I don't think that a privileged white youngster is an authority on POC culture.

True, but the thing is, she seems to believe she is and that makes me inclined to feel protective over her as she is, probably only about 18-19 years of age. I think that labels and identities are very changeable based on culture, ethnicity, background, age, experience, etc. This is her limited experience of the world and it is a perspective. That's it. Just one perspective in a slew of perspectives in the world.

I don't believe there is a thing as subjective reality. Reality is the world you've created and observed and experienced. We all gravitate toward others whose understanding of reality is similar to ours. This is what generates the destructive and ever-present "us versus them" mentality on this planet.

Was her video a bit immature? IMO,yes. However, I truly don't think she has an inkling of the butch/femme culture as it originated, which is something I have learned to have great respect for as I've researched and learned my roots, where this dynamic came from, and how sacred it is. I think the younger the generation, the less respectful simply because they have not had to fight for their place like their predecessors have. To them, sexuality has become fluid, almost a "style", instead of an identity.

I might get some flack for this but it's what I've observed. Again, perspective.

[Corkey]

True, but the thing is, she seems to believe she is and that makes me inclined to feel protective over her as she is, probably only about 18-19 years of age. I think that labels and identities are very changeable based on culture, ethnicity, background, age, experience, etc. This is her limited experience of the world and it is a perspective. That's it. Just one perspective in a slew of perspectives in the world.

I don't believe there is a thing as subjective reality. Reality is the world you've created and observed and experienced. We all gravitate toward others whose understanding of reality is similar to ours. This is what generates the destructive and ever-present "us versus them" mentality on this planet.

Was her video a bit immature? IMO,yes. However, I truly don't think she has an inkling of the butch/femme culture as it originated, which is something I have learned to have great respect for as I've researched and learned my roots, where this dynamic came from, and how sacred it is. I think the younger the generation, the less respectful simply because they have not had to fight for their place like their predecessors have. To them, sexuality has become fluid, almost a "style", instead of an identity.

I might get some flack for this but it's what I've observed. Again, perspective.

I have no problem with sexual fluidity, that isn't gender or cultural. I do find appropriating POC identities problematic, especially when one is white and privileged.

[Electrocell]

Butch-- buzzed hair no make up over sized clothing

I don't fit the buzzed hair look should I buzzz it ----nope don't think so but that's my opinion and the only one that counts right lol?
Everyone has a right to their on opinion but when you try to force it on other people then this is what happens .


vEvvRfuVk30

[dixie]

I belong to different lesbian groups on facebook. A couple that I frequent more often primarily use the labels "fem/femme", "stud", "stem", and occasionally "butch". I had absolutely no clue what they were talking about half the time. So....I continually read and ask questions, to see what they are defining with these terms. (Especially stem. ??) In these groups, the participants are primarily younger and also predominantly POC. From what I gather of their interpretations, stud does seem to be more interchangeable with butch, although seemingly for the more younger generation. Usually the 20somethings will use the term stud while 30s+ tend to more often use butch. They themselves (discussing these groups only), do not seem to define stud as primarily a cultural term (which is how I had previously thought/heard described). Femmes were thought of as being the more feminine lesbian, while I myself was described by them as being a "stem". Apparently, this is because I am a more aggressive/tomboi-ish femme.

I know that the college femme was a lil whack with all the "shut the fuck up" and that she was way off base in some of her descriptions, but do I think perhaps somewhere in there she was accurately describing what some portion of the younger generation uses terminology-wise. I'm not saying that I agree with her video or that she is "correct" in any way, but I am saying that I do believe there are people out there who truly have the same thoughts/beliefs that she expressed, in reference to labels. I don't think they necessarily mean to take away from anyone else's labels/identities, but that perhaps it is youth and/or simply not knowing the history behind those labels. Especially with younger generations, they tend to follow/adopt those descriptors that they think associates with them, without really knowing where those terms came from.

Note: I am not presuming to speak for anyone, or assume that I know what people ARE thinking/meaning. I am simply stating what *my* observations were in those couple of small groups and with the video, in hopes of feedback to further my own knowledge/understanding.

[Corkey]

I would hope some educating goes on with these youngsters.

[Electrocell]

With each generation the terminology changes so they can better understand themselves as does the different types of lesbians/gays. Do gay guys have so many labels and different styles as gay women do? But if you push your beliefs on others it will meet with resistance. It's better to be a little more subtle in approach .

[Corkey]

With each generation the terminology changes so they can better understand themselves as does the different types of lesbians/gays. Do gay guys have so many labels and different styles as gay women do? But if you push your beliefs on others it will meet with resistance. It's better to be a little more subtle in approach .

I think there is a difference between terminology and appropriation. One is the use of language to clearly define, the other is the taking without regard for another's culture. I also think that perhaps these kids need to respect folks culture and not just take what is not theirs.

[Electrocell]

I think there is a difference between terminology and appropriation. One is the use of language to clearly define, the other is the taking without regard for another's culture. I also think that perhaps these kids need to respect folks culture and not just take what is not theirs.

You definitely have a point there. Culture ----- civilization, society, mores , background traditions, ethnicity, customs , way of life. Those kids should respect their elders etc. but how many have been taught ---yes I said taught to do that?

[dixie]

I would hope some educating goes on with these youngsters.

I think there is a difference between terminology and appropriation. One is the use of language to clearly define, the other is the taking without regard for another's culture. I also think that perhaps these kids need to respect folks culture and not just take what is not theirs.

I think, therein lies the issue. Using the video for example: Say this privileged white youngster only associates/hangs out with other privileged white youngsters. Knowing youth, I know that most will not research these things on their own. So, who will educate them? (Theoretically.) That, I believe, is the issue that perpetuates the cycle. If they do not have someone willing to say, "hey, did you know...", then they will continue to latch on without that knowledge/regard.

[Corkey]

You definitely have a point there. Culture ----- civilization, society, mores , background traditions, ethnicity, customs , way of life. Those kids should respect their elders etc. but how many have been taught ---yes I said taught to do that?

That, I do believe is the operative word. Cultural appropriation has been going on for quite awhile. Often when confronted with it either a light bulb goes off or a heated discussion breaks out. I prefer light bulb moments.

[Electrocell]

I think, therein lies the issue. Using the video for example: Say this privileged white youngster only associates/hangs out with other privileged white youngsters. Knowing youth, I know that most will not research these things on their own. So, who will educate them? (Theoretically.) That, I believe, is the issue that perpetuates the cycle. If they do not have someone willing to say, "hey, did you know...", then they will continue to latch on without that knowledge/regard.

Right --raise theirselves making it up as they go along.

[Electrocell]

That, I do believe is the operative word. Cultural appropriation has been going on for quite awhile. Often when confronted with it either a light bulb goes off or a heated discussion breaks out. I prefer light bulb moments.

LOL I agree with you on that one.

[Corkey]

I think, therein lies the issue. Using the video for example: Say this privileged white youngster only associates/hangs out with other privileged white youngsters. Knowing youth, I know that most will not research these things on their own. So, who will educate them? (Theoretically.) That, I believe, is the issue that perpetuates the cycle. If they do not have someone willing to say, "hey, did you know...", then they will continue to latch on without that knowledge/regard.

I think it is up to all of us to educate the youth, they should also take some classes in Sociology, Cultural Anthropology.

[Electrocell]

I think it is up to all of us to educate the youth, they should also take some classes in Sociology, Cultural Anthropology.

Ask yourself though at that age lol what did you think about people of our age opinions. We can try to lead by example and let them know that kind of attitude isn't really acceptable.

[Corkey]

Ask yourself though at that age lol what did you think about people of our age opinions. We can try to lead by example and let them know that kind of attitude isn't really acceptable.

I was in the service, so I have a slightly different view on that. I also grew up respecting my elders and being open to knew ideas and cultures, while respecting those cultures and ideas. I'm an old fart, I know...

[Electrocell]

I was in the service, so I have a slightly different view on that. I also grew up respecting my elders and being open to knew ideas and cultures, while respecting those cultures and ideas. I'm an old fart, I know...

LOL so am I. Was taught to respect my elders also.
I've been around alot of different cultures myself-----almost went into the services ---almost lol. To much of a rebel back then to let someone tell me what to do 24/7. Still can't handle the 24/7 or some of societies rules :D, but if I want to keep my ass out of jail or keep a job I have to abide lol.

[QueenofSmirks]

I think it is up to all of us to educate the youth, they should also take some classes in Sociology, Cultural Anthropology.

I agree. And I know others also say they agree. But then I see threads started by newbies in the community, often young in age, asking questions, innocently, that they are curious about and honestly do not know the answer to, and what happens? Sometimes responses are welcoming and encouraging, and sometimes they are dismissive, condescending, and "Why don't you read some threads before you come in here and ask those kinds of questions?" or "It's easy to google it, so why don't you?" I think it's a lovely idea to agree that we should educate youth, but then we actually have to follow through with it. And I don't think it actually stops with youth. I know plenty of adults that could use some education - especially in Developmental Psychology.

[Corkey]

I agree. And I know others also say they agree. But then I see threads started by newbies in the community, often young in age, asking questions, innocently, that they are curious about and honestly do not know the answer to, and what happens? Sometimes responses are welcoming and encouraging, and sometimes they are dismissive, condescending, and "Why don't you read some threads before you come in here and ask those kinds of questions?" or "It's easy to google it, so why don't you?" I think it's a lovely idea to agree that we should educate youth, but then we actually have to follow through with it. And I don't think it actually stops with youth. I know plenty of adults that could use some education - especially in Developmental Psychology.


I think it is the approach, hence why *I* personally have issues with people not doing their own homework. When *I* first started coming to sites like this I did a whole lot of reading and did some self discovery. *I* don't like looking like an idiot.

[QueenofSmirks]

I think it is the approach, hence why *I* personally have issues with people not doing their own homework. When *I* first started coming to sites like this I did a whole lot of reading and did some self discovery. *I* don't like looking like an idiot.

I can understand the overwhelming excitement of discovery and wanting to jump in with both feet, so, I don't see someone asking a question as looking like an idiot. I agree that everyone approaches things in different ways - it's part of what makes us such a lovely and diverse community.

[PapiChino]

In Oakland, California, it's the term the young dykes use to identify themselves. I DO think of horses when I hear it. I prefer the term butch, but as someone mentioned here it has been used in the past to refer to handsome virile young man and I don't think some young people relate it to breeding stock, but maybe some do. Culture and age is truly part of the attraction and reason for certain terms being acceptable.

[Chancie]

Stud (http://lesbianidentity.blogspot.com/2009/11/stud-butch.html?m=1) isn't a new term and there are probably a few references online, if you googled a bit.

I am quoting myself to ask a question.

Why does it seem critical or silencing to suggest a resource for information?

I'm curious why it's a bad thing to do a little research.

I know that I don't especially think, The Internet, right or wrong, but

Why wouldn't someone want to concern themselves with a range of ideas?

[The_Lady_Snow]

People, don't like doing their own research when it comes to cultural differences, it's expected that the answers are handed to them quietly. I can't count how many times when cultural differences come up that the bully/silencing deflection comes up when POC refuse to do the leg work for those who want answers. Unless it handed to them(general)
they're not going to learn it on their own. It's not a POC's job to educate not only the white folk out in the real world, here on BFP and certainly not over a video of a white kid from SANTA BARBARA spewing her appropriations. It really isn't yet it's EXPECTED. Do your homework folks, don't expect others to do it for you.





I am quoting myself to ask a question.

Why does it seem critical or silencing to suggest a resource for information?

I'm curious why it's a bad thing to do a little research.

I know that I don't especially think, The Internet, right or wrong, but

Why wouldn't someone want to concern themselves with a range of ideas?

[GraffitiBoi]

In Oakland, California, it's the term the young dykes use to identify themselves. I DO think of horses when I hear it. I prefer the term butch, but as someone mentioned here it has been used in the past to refer to handsome virile young man and I don't think some young people relate it to breeding stock, but maybe some do. Culture and age is truly part of the attraction and reason for certain terms being acceptable.

Where (and when) I grew up in the Midwest (different area of the Midwest than I currently live in, back in the early '90s) the term stud was used for a butch who only gave when it came to sex. A stud never received from the person they were 'doing.' In my opinion, it all comes down to where you live and from which generation you are from. The term has changed a lot over the years and varies from region to region.

It does seem like a horse for the definition we used back then in our little town. A stud horse was used for one purpose - to get a mare pregnant. A stud in my community was also used for one purpose - to get the other person off. I was a stud back then, but not anymore! Gimme! LOL

[QueenofSmirks]

I am quoting myself to ask a question.

Why does it seem critical or silencing to suggest a resource for information?

I'm curious why it's a bad thing to do a little research.

I know that I don't especially think, The Internet, right or wrong, but

Why wouldn't someone want to concern themselves with a range of ideas?

Asking the question is the first step to "doing a little research."
I don't think it's a "bad thing," to suggest the Internet as a resource, but I think the reaction to it depends on the person who asked the question in the first place. For someone shy and new, I can certainly see how it might feel as a shut out answer. From a neutral point of view, I just don't find it very helpful, and as the OP said, she was hoping for a discussion, which did eventually take place. From my own point of view, if I'm looking to connect with my community, I am looking for opinions from my community, not from an Internet search that is going to spit back 85,000,000 results that I have to weed through, not knowing if I'm even on the right track. I haven't tried to Google "why do some butches refer to themselves as studs" so maybe the answer is plain as day, but that still doesn't preclude me from wanting to talk to my own community about it. I trust this community for answers on LGBTQ issues more than I would an Internet search.

[QueenofSmirks]

People, don't like doing their own research when it comes to cultural differences, it's expected that the answers are handed to them quietly. I can't count how many times when cultural differences come up that the bully/silencing deflection comes up when POC refuse to do the leg work for those who want answers. Unless it handed to them(general)
they're not going to learn it on their own. It's not a POC's job to educate not only the white folk out in the real world, here on BFP and certainly not over a video of a white kid from SANTA BARBARA spewing her appropriations. It really isn't yet it's EXPECTED. Do your homework folks, don't expect others to do it for you.

In reference to this particular thread, the question wasn't about cultural differences- the OP was looking for the source of the different use in terms. It wasn't until a few of us answered "it's a cultural thing" that it became a discussion about culture. The problem I have with the point of view that people should "educate themselves" is that it presumes people know which sources are "good" sources. Everyone who writes a book thinks its good and real and true information, so how does someone who doesn't know anything about that subject know if they are reading good, real, and true information? Speaking for myself, I'd rather go to someone I know or a community I am familiar with and ask questions than to read articles on the Internet, or books, and try to figure out what's real and what's bullshit. If someone were researching discrimination in education, do you think all of the available research materials would point them in a clear and defined direction that would be in the same direction of people's experiences and opinions of this community? Some would and some woudn't, so that takes them back to square one. I'm for *helping* people become educated; I don't expect them to do it on their own.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Sad truth is, that POC aren't running to join BFP or they aren't willing to share their experiences and culture and words they use because of stuff like this. The last You Tube that was posted as a I'm not really sure why is certainly not going to feel welcoming to folks who do identify as these cultural terms. It just isn't. The shame on you for not taking time to educate us more thing gets old. I know I get tired of it, because frankly QoS, we have come in here and helped define, explain and put out there what Studs. Aggressives. Macha culture is. It took one You Tube from some kid from Santa Barbara of all places to turn this back into give the white folk a break, why aren't you educating them. That girl on that video isn't going to be educated, she said it herself, it's how she sees it and fuck the rest of ya'll if you disagree.


What's the point in putting in a shit ton of time explaining over and over what the terms are and the cultural back ground when all of a sudden some white kid comes in and spews all kinds of shit and now we have to stop, educate, and take a step back because she's 18 and young?


That girl isn't going to make room for me as a Woman of Color in the world, why am I having to for her, a person I don't even know, a person like all the other persons out in the real world that I am having to make room for because they aren't educated on cultural terms, people, lives.


That's where I am coming from as in do your damn homework on your own, it's really a waste of time to even type it out because people just don't.


Nobody educated me on other peoples, I took the time and I educated myself on how to maneuver around all the other cultures around me at all times.

[QueenofSmirks]

Sad truth is, that POC aren't running to join BFP or they aren't willing to share their experiences and culture and words they use because of stuff like this. The last You Tube that was posted as a I'm not really sure why is certainly not going to feel welcoming to folks who do identify as these cultural terms. It just isn't. The shame on you for not taking time to educate us more thing gets old. I know I get tired of it, because frankly QoS, we have come in here and helped define, explain and put out there what Studs. Aggressives. Macha culture is. It took one You Tube from some kid from Santa Barbara of all places to turn this back into give the white folk a break, why aren't you educating them. That girl on that video isn't going to be educated, she said it herself, it's how she sees it and fuck the rest of ya'll if you disagree.


What's the point in putting in a shit ton of time explaining over and over what the terms are and the cultural back ground when all of a sudden some white kid comes in and spews all kinds of shit and now we have to stop, educate, and take a step back because she's 18 and young?


That girl isn't going to make room for me as a Woman of Color in the world, why am I having to for her, a person I don't even know, a person like all the other persons out in the real world that I am having to make room for because they aren't educated on cultural terms, people, lives.


That's where I am coming from as in do your damn homework on your own, it's really a waste of time to even type it out because people just don't.


Nobody educated me on other peoples, I took the time and I educated myself on how to maneuver around all the other cultures around me at all times.

Thank you for sharing all of this, and I know it's come up in many threads before. I want to be very clear about one thing though - I am not coming from a "shame on you" place, *at all*. I get what you're saying - frankly there were times I felt the same way about educating people about the queer community, it can be exhausting. But what I'm afraid of is that if we *don't* step up and take the opportunity to educate someone who is asking for answers, he or she will get their "education" from people like we saw in that fucked up video. I agree that some people can never be freed from their ignorance, no matter how hard you try, but there are clearly others who really do want to understand, and I just hate to see those opportunities wasted. I'm not saying we should spoon feed all of the information, but we can at least provide some resources and be a resource ourselves.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Thank you for sharing all of this, and I know it's come up in many threads before. I want to be very clear about one thing though - I am not coming from a "shame on you" place, *at all*. I get what you're saying - frankly there were times I felt the same way about educating people about the queer community, it can be exhausting. But what I'm afraid of is that if we *don't* step up and take the opportunity to educate someone who is asking for answers, he or she will get their "education" from people like we saw in that fucked up video. I agree that some people can never be freed from their ignorance, no matter how hard you try, but there are clearly others who really do want to understand, and I just hate to see those opportunities wasted. I'm not saying we should spoon feed all of the information, but we can at least provide some resources and be a resource ourselves.

QoS there were plenty of posts that were educational for the OP, she even stated so. The last You Tube video wasn't conducive to the conversation that had been had.

All it did was stir up up shit. Then when there was a WTF response by me I was taken to task for reacting in the manner I did, mind you I was not the ONLY one that was like WTF, yet I am the one singled out because of my WTF matter of fact I got accused of bullying.

So at this point it's tiring to continue to have to put in any more effort, because every fucking time I do someone, somewhere, and they are generally white come an tell me I am to LOUD, TO AGGRESSIVE, I'm a BULLY it goes on and on and on.


I don't care how the convo goes now, it isn't like anyone is going to listen anyway to what Stud, Aggressives, Machas are.

It's obvious.

I'm not as patient as you:)

[Reader]

I think there is a difference between terminology and appropriation. One is the use of language to clearly define, the other is the taking without regard for another's culture. I also think that perhaps these kids need to respect folks culture and not just take what is not theirs.

I love the word "appropriation". I think I will borrow it, maybe tweak it a tad for my uses and move on.

OK, I'm being silly(ish) to make a point: what about the natural instinct of all creatures to use what fits and works better? I've heard it called the "100th Monkey" effect.

I prefer the term "100th Monkey Thing" myself.

I suspect that part of what some call cultural stealing is really just the 100th Monkey Thing.

[weatherboi]

Ohhhhh I didnt realize thay had another term for white privilege now...thanks for updating us on this sillyish point you are trying to make...read loud and clear.



I love the word "appropriation". I think I will borrow it, maybe tweak it a tad for my uses and move on.

OK, I'm being silly(ish) to make a point: what about the natural instinct of all creatures to use what fits and works better? I've heard it called the "100th Monkey" effect.

I prefer the term "100th Monkey Thing" myself.

I suspect that part of what some call cultural stealing is really just the 100th Monkey Thing.

[Reader]

Ohhhhh I didnt realize thay had another term for white privilege now...thanks for updating us on this sillyish point you are trying to make...read loud and clear.

With all due respect, wb, do you really believe that what I posted has anything at all to do with white privilege?

And why do you assume I am WHITE?

[weatherboi]

Did I say you were white??? Where?? I am talking about the video and peoples defense of the girl in it.


With all due respect, wb, do you really believe that what I posted has anything at all to do with white privilege?

And why do you assume I am WHITE?

[Reader]

Did I say you were white??? Where?? I am talking about the video and peoples defense of the girl in it.

But, seriously, I want to know where in my post it implies or references anything about white privilege? I am not asking you this because I wish to engage in fighting with you or annoying you. I actually want to know.

[weatherboi]

I am clear on the 100th monkey effect when we are speaking of large groups of people but I don't see it applying here culturally. I was pointing white privilege to what the conversation was speaking of before not your scientific deflection.

But, seriously, I want to know where in my post it implies or references anything about white privilege? I am not asking you this because I wish to engage in fighting with you or annoying you. I actually want to know.

[Reader]

I am clear on the 100th monkey effect when we are speaking of large groups of people but I don't see it applying here culturally. I was pointing white privilege to what the conversation was speaking of before not your scientific deflection.

Ah. I see. Thanks for explaining that.

[QueenofSmirks]

QoS there were plenty of posts that were educational for the OP, she even stated so.

I agree, and that is sort of what my point was. There WERE posts (replies to her question) that helped to educate her; I'm all for that.

The last You Tube video wasn't conducive to the conversation that had been had.

Agreed, although I think it *could have* had some value to the discussion if there had been some narrative to go along with it from the poster, like "And then we have this kind of crap.... obviously this girl needs some education on the larger GLBTQ community!" It could have been used as an example of what goes wrong when people are NOT educated.

All it did was stir up up shit. Then when there was a WTF response by me I was taken to task for reacting in the manner I did, mind you I was not the ONLY one that was like WTF, yet I am the one singled out because of my WTF matter of fact I got accused of bullying

So at this point it's tiring to continue to have to put in any more effort, because every fucking time I do someone, somewhere, and they are generally white come an tell me I am to LOUD, TO AGGRESSIVE, I'm a BULLY it goes on and on and on.

Trust me, as someone who has gotten her fair share of "you're a bitch" because I speak my mind, I know it gets old, and it can derail us from saying what we really want to say.

I don't care how the convo goes now, it isn't like anyone is going to listen anyway to what Stud, Aggressives, Machas are. It's obvious.

I disagree. I think people are listening/reading, and I think your contributions to the thread were received in different ways by different people - that's par for the course, but I still think it's valuable.

I'm not as patient as you:)

You caught me on a good day :)

[Martina]

Cultural appropriation happens no matter how we feel about it. We can get institutions to change the names of their sports teams, but we can't change the way young people talk.

People have always appropriated the African American culture. Some African-American kids push back. There was a BIG argument in my class once between, in this case, Latinos and African-Americans about the use of the n-word. Partly because it is such a nasty pejorative. But also because it's an appropriation. African-American kids were saying why do you have to try to sound like us. Latino kids were saying, we aren't. We sound like us.

One Latino kid acknowledged that it was an appropriation and added he had never seen African American kids adopt the words, music or fashion of Latinos (I have), but that Latinos did it all the time. He had internalized this as Latino cultures being backward and unworthy of appropriation ( :( ). It was an interesting conversation. Anyway kids are aware they are appropriating all the time and have different feelings about it.

I do think that white people need to be more careful, but it's nearly impossible to police the language, clothing, music, and well. . . just the behavior of teenagers.

I take the girl in the video seriously as a lesbian. I don't discredit her as a queer. As a white person, I wish she at least acknowledged that the term was taken from other cultures, that she and her friends are white and are using it the way they do. But in a way that's self-evident.

Is she an obnoxious privileged white girl? For sure. Is she also using language and living as queer in a completely real and authentic way for her? Without a doubt.

[julieisafemme]

She did acknowledge that the term stud was used to describe African American lesbians who were masculine. Then she described how she viewed the term. She seemed to be quite aware that people had a problem with the way she used the terms and was quite clear she did not care. It seemed to be why she made the video in the first place.

That is what bothered me about it.



Cultural appropriation happens no matter how we feel about it. We can get institutions to change the names of their sports teams, but we can't change the way young people talk.

People have always appropriated the African American culture. Some African-American kids push back. There was a BIG argument in my class once between, in this case, Latinos and African-Americans about the use of the n-word. Partly because it is such a nasty pejorative. But also because it's an appropriation. African-American kids were saying why do you have to try to sound like us. Latino kids were saying, we aren't. We sound like us.

One Latino kid acknowledged that it was an appropriation and added he had never seen African American kids adopt the words, music or fashion of Latinos (I have), but that Latinos did it all the time. He had internalized this as Latino cultures being backward and unworthy of appropriation ( :( ). It was an interesting conversation. Anyway kids are aware they are appropriating all the time and have different feelings about it.

I do think that white people need to be more careful, but it's nearly impossible to police the language, clothing, music, and well. . . just the behavior of teenagers.

I take the girl in the video seriously as a lesbian. I don't discredit her as a queer. As a white person, I wish she at least acknowledged that the term was taken from other cultures, that she and her friends are white and are using it the way they do. But in a way that's self-evident.

Is she an obnoxious privileged white girl? For sure. Is she also using language and living as queer in a completely real and authentic way for her? Without a doubt.

[Martina]

Ah. Explains the defensiveness. I can see your point.

[Electrocell]

She did acknowledge that the term stud was used to describe African American lesbians who were masculine. Then she described how she viewed the term. She seemed to be quite aware that people had a problem with the way she used the terms and was quite clear she did not care. It seemed to be why she made the video in the first place.

That is what bothered me about it.

This pompous young lady did this on youtube meaning you can go click the like or dislike button so maybe by clicking the dislike button she might get the message that what she said isn't acceptable or leave a comment on it . If there is enough negative feedback maybe then it will be removed.

[julieisafemme]

This pompous young lady did this on youtube meaning you can go click the like or dislike button so maybe by clicking the dislike button she might get the message that what she said isn't acceptable or leave a comment on it . If there is enough negative feedback maybe then it will be removed.

I wish I had that much faith in YouTube. I reported the video my kid watched and left a comment and disliked it and nothing happened.

[girl_dee]

She did acknowledge that the term stud was used to describe African American lesbians who were masculine. Then she described how she viewed the term. She seemed to be quite aware that people had a problem with the way she used the terms and was quite clear she did not care. It seemed to be why she made the video in the first place.

That is what bothered me about it.

Me too. One clue was the *don't tell me i'm wrong* over and over.

To me that's a clear message that they are not willing to learn. A total F-you to the rest of the world who find her words offensive and hurtful.

And it's not just the gal in the video.

i used to deny my white privilege because i grew up with and have mixed race family. That doesn't excuse me.

[Julien]

I've been reading the thread and I wanted to voice my perspective on education. Education is my business in that I teach LGBT Studies and Women's Studies. It has been my experience that people new to Feminism and/or being LGBT want to absorb it so quickly and can come off being offensive at times for the lack of knowledge they have about themselves and the topic. It is also possible for those of us in the know are still learning. I know I am learning every day and that is a good thing because I am not standing still but growing in knowledge and understanding of myself. For those who want to learn, it is their eagerness I respect. I enjoy teaching those who want to learn and find it fulfilling to see them grow in their confidence and knowledge. However, there is another side who I don't teach directly because they never want to learn about us. All I can do is "teach" by being who I am and maybe, possibly they can learn from that. We cannot reach those who don't want to learn and I believe it is up to us to teach the ones that do. Of course it all comes to who wants to do what and how far we want to go in that giving of knowledge. This is a very individual task to take on. For the discussion, I too have gone to the internet and to books to gain as much knowledge as I can, but it is also so very helpful to gain real life experience from my community and that is invaluable. I appreciate the cautious steps as much as those who go in with both feet, as someone wrote, because it illustrates to me their need for knowledge and who am I to deny it when I have the tools and the want to teach. It is what I do.

[Girl_On_Fire]

I think it is the approach, hence why *I* personally have issues with people not doing their own homework. When *I* first started coming to sites like this I did a whole lot of reading and did some self discovery. *I* don't like looking like an idiot.

Not everybody learns that way though, Corkey. In my style of learning, for example, I learn much better by interaction with others rather than reading text. This could possibly be because I'm extremely right-brained but I do not readily absorb information unless it's presented to me in a creative way. That's just my learning style, it has nothing to do with laziness or not caring.

[Corkey]

Not everybody learns that way though, Corkey. In my style of learning, for example, I learn much better by interaction with others rather than reading text. This could possibly be because I'm extremely right-brained but I do not readily absorb information unless it's presented to me in a creative way. That's just my learning style, it has nothing to do with laziness or not caring.


Never said either you were lazy or non caring. It isn't up to me to educate the masses, nor is it up to POC to educate the masses. I think if folks are interested it is up to them to educate themselves. And with this I am done. Have a good evening.

[Girl_On_Fire]

Never said either you were lazy or non caring. It isn't up to me to educate the masses, nor is it up to POC to educate the masses. I think if folks are interested it is up to them to educate themselves. And with this I am done. Have a good evening.

And I never said you implied I was lazy. However, from your (and others) suggestion that people need to "educate themselves", it makes it seem as though you are implying laziness or not caring on the part of anyone who would reach out to others for answers versus learning on their own. I cannot do that very successfully and I'm sure I'm not alone. Reaching out to patient others who are willing to see and understand my genuine confusion and ignorance are really the only people whom I can safely and successfully learn from.

I didn't mean to start anything serious by asking this question but I'm glad it turned into a serious discussion. I've lead an incredibly sheltered life (and not good sheltered, more like ignored/dismissed/abused sheltered so please don't read privileged into that because I've worked hard for every scrap of knowledge I've ever managed to pull from people because I have a developmental/learning disorder.)

My point is, everybody comes from a different place and has a different story. It's not what others do or say or believe, to me, it's how you respond to them. If anybody thinks someone is being a jerk or rude or lazy or trying to start something because they ask a question, then that is their perception. This is a big pet peeve of mine because I've been chronically dismissed since childhood for asking what I believed (and still believe) to be innocent questions while trying to learn about the world around me. While that's my own personal issue and has nothing to do with you or this discussion, it's important to keep in mind that everybody's brain works differently and their experiences shape how they view the world. They may truly not at all understand your response to their question or confusion and a more sensitive person may run away and burrow deeper into their own solitude for fear of other's reactions to them.

Thankfully, a bit of age and wisdom has taught me not to run and hide, but to explain and discuss as rationally as my current emotions allow in any given situation.

[Corkey]

Not interested. Thanks but I've had my say. I will not be pulled back in.

[aishah]

sorry, i was away for the last two days w/no internet or i would have jumped in...i'm super grateful for folks' posts, especially snow, corkey, and chino. snow already said all there is to be said on the subject of education. apparently it needs repeating, though.

i just wanted to address, re: "being a resource" - i like being a resource for people. i love teaching (and for that matter learning). i love being able to give people information and links. i also take on that role professionally a lot when doing accessibility work - coordinating people and resources.

but too often women, esp poc, and indigenous folks are expected to "be resources" - well, you know what happens to resources? resources get USED UP and commodified and misused and appropriated and stolen and wasted. particularly used up.

i'm a human being, not a resource.

in my opinion at least as an indigenous woman who's been stuck in the resource position (and sometimes chosen it, too), expecting people - especially marginalized folks - to be a resource is dehumanizing. (in addition to the learning issues.) because not only do we have to be a resource for the new white lesbian girls but we also have to be experts on how to assimilate to white culture without completely being destroyed (and the experts on everything white culture in general), plus, you know, have lives and stuff too.

[julieisafemme]

What I have learned as a white person is that sometimes it is painful and hurtful for people of color to hear white people process their questions and feelings. That is the privilege we have. So it is helpful for us to read or talk to other white people who might know more than we do. Asking questions is fine but sometimes we have to understand that people might not want to answer. That is their right.

I totally understand what you are saying about having trouble learning that way. I also have a very difficult time understanding things in writing. I have to read things over and over to understand. I do understand though that it is not other's responsibility to help me deal with my different way of learning.





And I never said you implied I was lazy. However, from your (and others) suggestion that people need to "educate themselves", it makes it seem as though you are implying laziness or not caring on the part of anyone who would reach out to others for answers versus learning on their own. I cannot do that very successfully and I'm sure I'm not alone. Reaching out to patient others who are willing to see and understand my genuine confusion and ignorance are really the only people whom I can safely and successfully learn from.

I didn't mean to start anything serious by asking this question but I'm glad it turned into a serious discussion. I've lead an incredibly sheltered life (and not good sheltered, more like ignored/dismissed/abused sheltered so please don't read privileged into that because I've worked hard for every scrap of knowledge I've ever managed to pull from people because I have a developmental/learning disorder.)

My point is, everybody comes from a different place and has a different story. It's not what others do or say or believe, to me, it's how you respond to them. If anybody thinks someone is being a jerk or rude or lazy or trying to start something because they ask a question, then that is their perception. This is a big pet peeve of mine because I've been chronically dismissed since childhood for asking what I believed (and still believe) to be innocent questions while trying to learn about the world around me. While that's my own personal issue and has nothing to do with you or this discussion, it's important to keep in mind that everybody's brain works differently and their experiences shape how they view the world. They may truly not at all understand your response to their question or confusion and a more sensitive person may run away and burrow deeper into their own solitude for fear of other's reactions to them.

Thankfully, a bit of age and wisdom has taught me not to run and hide, but to explain and discuss as rationally as my current emotions allow in any given situation.

[Reader]

I tried to read this whole thread, but I just cannot and do not want to wade through it any further than I did.

This thread is a perfect example of the cannibalization that goes on in our community.

It's like the operation was a success, but the patient died.

What the hell happened to "Sisterhood is Powerful"?

Was the revolution a success, yet the sisterhood died?

Bleh.

[aishah]

the "sisterhood" hasn't often been a place of power and safety and community for indigenous women and women of color. sometimes it's come at our expense. i for one thought the fact that snow got called a bully again for adding to the conversation by sharing what it's like for her to deal with racism on a daily basis again was pretty cannibalizing.

[QueenofSmirks]

... expecting people - especially marginalized folks - to be a resource is dehumanizing. ...

I don't *expect* anyone to be a resource for me, but it sure is nice when they *agree* to be one.

[aishah]

I don't *expect* anyone to be a resource for me, but it sure is nice when they *agree* to be one.



perhaps the word "expect" was the wrong word to use.

to me, the resource dynamic is extremely problematic.

[Glenn]

perhaps the word "expect" was the wrong word to use.

to me, the resource dynamic is extremely problematic.

Ah! No It was the perfect word because that is where the beginning of exploitation always occurs. The stud has always been a freak of nature, beyond time, the traditions of men, and culture.

[Ginger]

The stud has always been a freak of nature, beyond time, the traditions of men, and culture.

Hi Glenn. I can sort of imagine what you might mean by "freak of nature." On the other hand, I am totally at a loss as to what "beyond time" is about. And as for "the traditions of men, and culture"—again, not sure I know what traditions, what men, and what culture you're referring to.

I'm interested in what you're saying. If you feel like it, could you possibly elaborate?

Thanks.

[Glenn]

There have been many "studs" throughout history that are both female and male who have "planted their seeds" in others spiritually, intellectually, politically, artistically, physically, etc. For example, Jesus was a "stud" imo, who defied the pharisees, and has sired many spiritual giants. But, many do not have the capablities of the orginal "stud", who try to emulate them like many do.,which isn't necessarily a bad thing. It was later that the oringinal teaching was exploited. But then their idealogies or "seeds" continue, until another one is "born" , to give birth to, hopefully, a better world of people.

[Ginger]

There have been many "studs" throughout history that are both female and male who have "planted their seeds" in others spiritually, intellectually, politically, artistically, physically, etc. For example, Jesus was a "stud" imo, who defied the pharisees, and has sired many spiritual giants. But, many do not have the capablities of the orginal "stud", who try to emulate them like many do.,which isn't necessarily a bad thing. It was later that the oringinal teaching was exploited. But then their idealogies or "seeds" continue, until another one is "born" , to give birth to, hopefully, a better world of people.


Hi, Glenn. Thanks for your patience. I sort of understand the first part of what you wrote, and that's a new one for me, your take on Jesus.

The part I bolded though, completely lost me. Please don't feel compelled to explain any further but if you do, I would read with interest.

[pinkgeek]

I also have a very difficult time understanding things in writing. I have to read things over and over to understand. I do understand though that it is not other's responsibility to help me deal with my different way of learning.

(Juliesafemme - not picking on you, just using this as a jumping off point.)

I do agree some people don't learn best by reading - my more handsome half certainly doesn't - what I will say is that a lot of information on a wide variety of subjects is available for free on video, audio and alternative formats for learning. Being able to discern a video etc. is of merit is fairly easy.

In my experience "I don't learn by reading" (while it may be true) is an excuse that skirts around the fact that aishah, Snow and others have the confidence to say (more than once) out loud that they aren't the bottomless well of cultural knowledge society expects them to be.

I'm not playing holier than thou; cultural competency is a difficult topic. For me part of unpacking white privilege is to be able to listen, see, read, hear what POC have to say without the "but" that is so common to contemporary culture.

[julieisafemme]

Exactly. Which is why I posted that. No one is responsible for how I learn. When I first was told, quite clearly, that my questions were hurtful I took the suggestion to watch Tim Wise. Then I got his books and then I went to see him speak in person. That helped me enormously. That was a space where my questions and fumblings were ok.



(Juliesafemme - not picking on you, just using this as a jumping off point.)

I do agree some people don't learn best by reading - my more handsome half certainly doesn't - what I will say is that a lot of information on a wide variety of subjects is available for free on video, audio and alternative formats for learning. Being able to discern a video etc. is of merit is fairly easy.

In my experience "I don't learn by reading" (while it may be true) is an excuse that skirts around the fact that aishah, Snow and others have the confidence to say (more than once) out loud that they aren't the bottomless well of cultural knowledge society expects them to be.

I'm not playing holier than thou; cultural competency is a difficult topic. For me part of unpacking white privilege is to be able to listen, see, read, hear what POC have to say without the "but" that is so common to contemporary culture.

[apretty]

Are you saying that you're NOT WHITE?

With all due respect, wb, do you really believe that what I posted has anything at all to do with white privilege?

And why do you assume I am WHITE?

[Martina]

OK another white person talking about her impressions of stud. Seems kinda weird and off-putting to be doing this. But here goes.

Where I used to live, the studs closer in age to me would often have manicured nails or earrings or do their hair in ways that were more feminine. But I'd also seem them wearing men's suits and hats. They tended to dress more like that when they were going out with their girlfriends. In my generation, most of the studs were very comfortable presenting themselves as masculine and feminine at the same time, sometimes more one than the other depending on the day.

Where I lived and worked for a few years -- in CA -- it seemed to me that the younger women more consistently presented as masculine. However, most of them used names or nicknames that ID'd them as female and used female pronouns.

I am not sure that this has ANYTHING to do with the stud ID. I think it has more to do with the fact that many African Americans do butch or stud differently.

This is also from back in the day. My experience and from friends who have talked to me about it is that it was disrespectful for a stud not to be treated as the dominant partner in public, but that in private, whatever works in your bed or relationship is fine. I am talking outside of a leather context.

Stud does feel different to me, but not less or more masculine. Just different. It feels -- and this is me, me, me -- like people have had less of a struggle with it as an ID. I wonder if that is because it was more accepted and known among straight and gay African American people than butch is among gay and straight white people. I don't know.

African Americans traditionally have polled as against gay marriage etc. But my impression is that there is a certain lack of surprise bordering on tolerance re lesbian relationships. Gay male relationships get more criticism, as always.

[Martina]

One of my former students was a self-ID'd stud. Her girlfriend was a femme. She had had previous girlfriends -- all straight. She was the first woman each had been with. Anyway, my student's mind was a little blown by the femme girlfriend. Femmes were different from straight girls, she told me (not knowing that she was talking to a femme. lol). Anyway, as she described it, the femme girlfriend was almost too confident. She knew what she wanted in and out of bed, and was, in general, a proud lesbian. They stayed together, however. I think the student just had to adjust to the ways of the new girlfriend.

Anyway, to this student -- before she met her femme girlfriend -- lesbians were studs. From her point of view, the women they fucked were NOT by definition lesbian. They were most often not. They were straight or possibly bisexual. They were girls who couldn't resist the charms of a stud lover.

I had another student, well before the other's time, who ID'd as bisexual She is feminine and at that time was a pimp. She turned her girlfriends out. She took care of them when they got arrested or pregnant, but she was a pimp. Her theory was that feminine women slept with other women because women know how to sexually please other women. In her mind, if you presented as feminine, you were probably not a lesbian. Studs were lesbians. Feminine women might be bisexual, as she was, but were more likely straight and just liked sex with women because men were inept by comparison.

I have no idea how common these attitudes are among young African American women in Richmond or anywhere else. But talk about femme invisibility.

[Girl_On_Fire]

(Juliesafemme - not picking on you, just using this as a jumping off point.)

I do agree some people don't learn best by reading - my more handsome half certainly doesn't - what I will say is that a lot of information on a wide variety of subjects is available for free on video, audio and alternative formats for learning. Being able to discern a video etc. is of merit is fairly easy.

In my experience "I don't learn by reading" (while it may be true) is an excuse that skirts around the fact that aishah, Snow and others have the confidence to say (more than once) out loud that they aren't the bottomless well of cultural knowledge society expects them to be.

I'm not playing holier than thou; cultural competency is a difficult topic. For me part of unpacking white privilege is to be able to listen, see, read, hear what POC have to say without the "but" that is so common to contemporary culture.

The only issue I have with this is it takes away from the sense of community. Maybe I'm not understanding something socially about how people come together on forums. (Wouldn't be the first time.) However, if I saw somebody start a thread asking a question, and I didn't want to be a resource, I'd just avoid the thread. Therefore I wouldn't have to be a resource and would have no reason to be upset about having been asked to be one. To me, starting a thread in a forum filled with hundreds or thousands of different people does not ask a direct question of one person. It is simply that: A question. Anyone can choose to (or not to) respond.

[Runner]

Just wanted to add I think this thread had some purpose until that ridiculous video was added - seriously cannot understand what relevance the ramblings of a random student had to the original thread and the posters intent on adding it?

[Daywalker]

Just wanted to add I think this thread had some purpose until that ridiculous video was added - seriously cannot understand what relevance the ramblings of a random student had to the original thread and the posters intent on adding it?


As icky as it was to see it, there is that door of knowledge to pull from
it...in that it is a sobering image of the vast difference in perspectives
on Studs and the like, and this one happened upon us as one
that a White person took the time to record and share.

To Me, even the many degrees of ignorance should be a part of
ones bank of knowledge. When I see shit like that, it reminds
me there is still much to be taught...and I have personally
fancied the thought how wondrous it would be if there
were more panel discussions available to
folks, both inter-generational
and interracial.
:thinking:

Now I've rambled.
Big surprise.
:|


:coffee:

:daywalker:

[Runner]

The person in the video recognised the cultural background and was therefore armed with the knowledge but dismissed it, why the fuck would/should anyone try to educate people like this is beyond me.

Difference being though that the OP started the thread with no knowledge of the usage of stud and appeared (to me) to geniunely question the definition and IMO this merits a discussion.

In relation to the original post, I have come across it before within the studs/aggressives documentary posted earlier

[Stud_puppy1991]

Personally, I know I am a butch, however, i get called a stud as well. Some use on me because I am young, but I usually just call myself a young butch. However, it makes no difference to me, because I will embrace it either way. And well, I'm just me