Is there a space for women like me?

[The_Lady_Snow]

I just want to speak up for the femmes who loved their butches the way they were born.

I can't go further, emotionally, it is too hard.

Is there a space for women like me?
__________________________________________________ ________________

I'd like to create this space for Femme's who have gone/ are going/ thought about the transitioning phase of their lives when their lovers/partners/boyfriends begin transition/are transitioned/transitioning.


I'd like for the Femme's/Women to come in and share their positive and negative experiences about this subject. Please no transphobic shenanigans and no taking pot shots at your exes.


PLEASE KEEP THIS A FEMME RESPONSES ONLY THREAD.

[julieisafemme]

Lady Snow do you think this should be a no cross talk thread? Also I would like to ask if it is ok that femmes who have never dated someone who has transitioned do not post. What do you think about that?

[Words]

All I will say at this point is that there are times when I'm painfully aware of the fact that while my face and body go in the opposite direction of what I'd like them to look like Blue's grow ever more in synch and that that realization carries with it a certain amount of jealousy and shame. It's something for which I was totally unprepared.

Great (and very welcome) idea for a thread.

Words

[The_Lady_Snow]

Lady Snow do you think this should be a no cross talk thread Also I would like to ask if it is ok that femmes who have never dated someone who has transitioned do not post. What do you think about that?



I think this would be a great idea julie, I feel the boundaries are needed when it comes this particular subject... There's not need for folks who haven't dealt with this post in here, it feels hurtful when someone says "I WOULD NEVER" I get it and hear you


So in addition to being a Femme only response thread what I bolded above is important..

[Martina]

Lady Snow do you think this should be a no cross talk thread? Also I would like to ask if it is ok that femmes who have never dated someone who has transitioned do not post. What do you think about that?

Maybe only femmes who have dated someone while transitioning or somewhere in the process?

[The_Lady_Snow]

My hope for Femmes is that they can come in here if they date, fuck, are partnered with FTM's that are NOT transitioning (as in body modification), FTM's that are in process of transitioning, and FTM's that are done transitioning.


I personally have a hard time with the word *transitition* because not everyone is going from one phase to another, currently I am with someone who is not choosing to do any kind physical modification because he's a guy, he's not going from one state to another he just is. Then again I get it because for some folks they had no other verbiage to use so they may use *butch* because that is the only word they could maybe identify with, so the next phase of their gender discovery would be FTM. Anyways all I know is when Soon posted in the other thread I understood her state of grief because I have gone through it like she has a couple of times and each time there is a sense of loss for not only what you had or thought you had but because the person you thought you knew suddenly is someone else and you can't figure out why or when or how.

Anyways it's not easy talking this out because it's uncomfortable and honest and sometimes if not all it's us Femmes who once again are dismissed because someone else's shit is more important. That's what is irritating to me is that the continual expectation is that a Femme take a step back for someone else. I say bullshit because as a Femme my shit is just as important as anyone's I am with if not MORE....

[feminality]

Thank you for this thread ... As I begain to put my thoughts down and try to tell my story of transistion the anixity became to much for me. I'm not sure I will ever have in me what it would take to tell my story ...
Just wish to say .... I know there were times when I felt alone, that there was no one else that had gone through what I was going through. It's in times such as this when I stumble on a thread, artical or a blog I relize that I'm not alone ... I am Femme Just a part of a BIG BEAUTIFUL sisterhood ... all you have to do it reach out

Yes there is a space...



:blueheels:

[Soon]

The anxiety is really huge for me too, feminality.

Snow, thank you for starting this thread.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I find it extremely distressing that Femmes have anxiety about talking and discussing their experiences. I for one expect that we're able to examine our feelings safely and without uglyness be it from someone coming in and imposing themselves to us being able to speak about out experiences without dragging baggage from past relationships that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

[The_Lady_Snow]

One of the biggest things I had an issue with my past liaisons was sex. I like sex, I like to talk about sex, have sex, be sexed up, sex up who I am with and not have hang ups when it came to sex. It's been from no sex to sex that was so ridiculously over done as in grunt grunt, I am done. Also the ridiculous reaction to my mentioning Femme cock.

I've had my hand slapped away for having it slip down the chest to far to being scolded for having a relationship with a cock (my own). The attempt to shame me for being a sexually confident woman has been attempted but being I don't roll that way I easily defended and called out someone's own personal shit when it came to that.

Intimacy was a big issue as well, the more cis male traits were adopted or reared their ugly head the more I was aware I was on the path to make a decision that I could not be with someone who feels it's ok to impose isms on me in the relationship. The more someone's body issues interfered with intimacy the more sure I became it was time to stop and move on where everyone was going to be happy meaning no more relationship/dates/sexy time.

[Nat]

this is one of those threads where I keep typing and back-spacing.

I'll try to stop back-spacing now and try to string a few thoughts/feelings together.

My sweetheart believed during her early twenties that she would transition one day. When we met, she said that she'd decided against doing so.

I keep in the back of my mind that it's possible one day she will change her mind. And if that happens, I already know it will break my heart in little ways. Even if I liked every change that happened, there'd be a part of me that would need to mourn those changes too.

I would miss the her that she is to me. I would miss the us that we have. I would miss the person I met and fell in love with. That doesn't mean I wouldn't love the he that emerged or enjoy the us that we would have, but it would be a different fit.

If it made her happier, if it felt right to her, then I would feel it was right and I would be happy *for* her (him at that point), but I'm not so sure i'd be so happy *for* me. I think a lot of that would have to do with how things fell out.

I wouldn't want to lose what small visibility I have as a femme. I wouldn't want my identity as a lesbian to be questioned or threatened. I wouldn't want to spend years relegating myself to gender-cheerleader while watching my own self and identity fade into the wallpaper while *his* emerged. I wouldn't want to lose the sense of community I have with other lesbians. Or the sense of comradery I feel being with another woman. I wouldn't want to live stealth or lie or sublimate myself or my identity so another person could be comfortable in his. I wouldn't want to feel like I had to stay silent or should feel ashamed if I felt angry or guilty or sad over any of the very many things that would change if she transitioned.

There's an ache in me - knowing that other femmes here and among us may be struggling with their heartaches, struggles, fears, grief in secret and alone because being open about it would seem like a betrayal to transitioning partners or even to the community.

There has to be a place for us femmes and enough room for us to be real about things. We are expected to accept, to nurture, to support, to encourage and never to fear or doubt or be confused or discourage or feel angry about whatever gender experiences or feelings or decisions our partners go through (or don't go through). How much of this we place on ourselves or our femme sisters and how much of this is placed on us from outside of this space - I'm not sure.

We are all transforming in one way or another as human beings. It may not always be as dramatic as it can seem when a person transitions from one sex to another. I would hate to see a trend of femme lives stunted while years are spent being rocks for our partners and never getting to find our own wings and pursue our own dreams.

If my love and my life go down the path one day of going through this type of transition, I want to make sure I'm a rock for myself too and that I don't clip my own wings or silence my own voice. If my life one day takes this turn in the road, there will be joy and pain involved. I'm glad that day is not today. I hope if that day comes that I will still have my community, regardless of whether my thoughts and feelings line up correctly with what I *should* think or feel about it.

Anyway, I probably should have employed my backspace more here, but there it is.

I've dated people of various gender identities and stages and definitions of transition, but I personally have never seen a person through a transition. Since I know my attractions, I've known for a long time that I could easily find myself in this position in my life. I learned during my exploratory :) years that the look, the feel, the chemistry of attraction, the preferences in and out of the bedroom - none of that is a guarantee that a person will or won't identify a certain way or possibly transition - or stop transitioning - or any of that.

So I've become more clear with my own boundaries. I'm never going stealth. I'm never giving up my community. I identify as a lesbian. I have a big mouth. I can be no more of a rock for you than I am for myself. And sometimes I need a rock too. I am happy to watch you stretch your wings and fly, but I want to fly too, to grow too and not just to grow around you. I will accept and encourage and support all I can, but I need support and acceptance and encouragement too. And not just around a partner's transition but about my own finite life and its transformations independent of whom I'm with.

[julieisafemme]

I came out 5 years ago. I left my spouse, told my family and friends and started a new life as a lesbian. I met Greyson and was not looking for a transman or a butch. I just went to a dance. I think the thing that has worked for us is that we have both transitioned together. A teenaged lesbian met a teenaged transmasculine butch! We went through our adolescence together.

I had no anxiety about partnering with a transman because I was not experienced in the butch/femme, lesbian world. I learned pretty quickly that partnering with a transman made me and my relationship different and suspect to many people, queer and straight. In the straight community I was a part of Greyson's gender identity was very difficult to understand. That was surprising to me. It was also surprising to me that in the lesbian community I was not embraced by all. I had the very naive idea that all queer people loved each other.

I am a lesbian femme. I don't feel the need to change my identity. Queer is also a good descriptor for me because that makes it easier for some to understand my relationship.

We don't hang out in exclusively trans or lesbian spaces. We like to and feel most comfortable in queer spaces.

I completely support and understand that some femmes are not interested in partnering with transmen. I don't think they are transphobic. It does hurt when people say "eww" or transmen are this or that. It is not my experience. My partner lived for 30 years as a butch before he decided to transition. He is still a butch. That is his gender and that did not change during his transition.

I do feel invisible as a lesbian. That was hard for a long time. Right now I don't really think too much about it. We are a queer couple and are not stealth. I don't think I could do that. I won't do that.

Sometimes I worry that the "loving a transman isn't easy" puts a huge burden on partners. Loving is hard period! Would my life be any easier if I were partnered with a butch woman? I am partnered with my partner and I love him. It isn't always easy but it isn't always hard either.

There is a space for us. For those who decide that they cannot partner with a transman and those who do.

[Gemme]

We are all transforming in one way or another as human beings. It may not always be as dramatic as it can seem when a person transitions from one sex to another.

So I've become more clear with my own boundaries. I'm never going stealth. I'm never giving up my community.

First point, so true!

Second point, absolutely. And that was the problem with my first relationship with an FTM. He wanted nothing to do with any kind of non-straight community.

I was still new to this community and to the 'rules' of engagement between sexes, genders, sexualities, sensualities, presentations, et cetera and I didn't have firm boundaries in place and through the process of making him feel better, I made myself feel worse. I felt less than then when I began that relationship and it took me a while to find my way back to me.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Would my life be any easier if I were partnered with a butch woman?

Until recently I can and could say that for me no. I've had/have to deal with the same kind of sexist mysiginistic bull shit from butch to Femme to FTM. Being a Femme who's 100% in the Lead is unpopular in the dating pool outside of kink.


It's tiring

[iamkeri1]

I want to apologise in advance if I am doing this wrong, I'm not really sure what cross posting is, so I don't know if that is what I am doing. I do want to say to you that I am in awe of those of you who have not lost contact with the femme part of yourselves, who refuse to sublimate or let others sublimate your needs completely to those of your loved on who is/has/wants to transition.

I have told my story in other threads, and maybe someday I will copy some of it to this thread. For today I just wantto send you my love. i can tell you are hurting. I been though much of that kind of hurting my self, and sometimes I still do hurt. Love to you my femme sisters (and daughters.) I'm proud of you.
Smooches,
Keri

[Words]

I think that one of the hardest things I've had to deal with whilst Blue has been making the transition from a third gendered/transgendered female looking woman to a third gendered/transgendered male looking woman (and yes, Hy still considers Hymself a woman and always, I believe, will), is other people's perception of Blue and, by default, other people's perception of me. Nine times out of ten people W/we don't know will assume that Blue is a straight guy and that I'm Hys straight wife. Which, to me, is understandable but annoying. Worse than that though, people who do know U/us - including queers - assume that deep down, Blue really wants to be a guy and that I, therefore, must really want to be with a guy or a 'real' FtM. Which puts me in the position of either having to explain - again -what transgendered/third gendered is and why, exactly, Blue wanted to 'masculinize', or alternatively, to simply keep quiet and allow them to carry on assuming, neither of which make me happy.

I really wish there was greater awareness, including amongst the queer community, with regard to the fact that not everyone who goes on T/has their breasts removed and so on and so forth wants to be a male or already considers themself a male albeit one trapped inside a female body. Blue is proud to be butch. Hy is proud to be transgendered. Hy is proud to be a masculine, male looking third gendered/transgendered woman. I just wish others would accept that for what it is, i.e., the absolute truth.

Words

[Kätzchen]

I want to say that I share in the sentiment expressed by Lady_Snow that I have found too, over the years, that Femme-led relationships are not always met with the approval of what appears to be an ongoing general consensus expressed by mainstream society or even within our own small universe of butches and femmes.

It's even smaller, for me, because of the way that I am.

I imagine the reason why I have been single for such a long time is that in my world, I live and abide as if there is no competition to lead or be led and I guess I could say that the way I live would probably be more in alignment with what some scientists believe to be a "competition-free" way of life.

I don't know how to distill my thoughts simply; but if I were to try to describe or illustrate what a competition-free environment would be, a person might find that when I say that I stand on my own and that the other party gets to stand on their own - it means that we know ourselves in unique ways that allow us to thrive in adverse conditions, yet have the capacity to nurture one another and be there for each other and pleasure each other with our own unique way of caring for each other, when there seems to be no reasonable or rational explanation for how we're able to do such a thing.

I lack a better way to share, in explanatory ways, at the moment. But the one thing I relish about a competition-free way of life is that I know I possess a very unique cache of skill (trained or untrained capacities), which allows me to thrive in ways where only I am the best evaluator of my own ability to evolve under any one kind or type of condition I face at any given moment in life. I wish I knew how to better say what is on my mind about things of this nature, but I feel that I possess a mixture of traits or gifts that are unique to me. And, even on my worst day or the best day or seemingly a mundane day in my life, I know that surely I am not alone.

Thank You Lady_Snow for the opportunity to share in this particular forum discussion and for constraining participation to those of us who identify as Femme.

[Kätzchen]

Bumping this thread today because our slice of the universe is under-represented, not discussed very often, but I feel we need ways to express ourselves.

My Sugarbear is fully transitioned, going on now about 5 years.
He is bald (side effect of T- tx's), but his baldness is super f*cking sexy to me.

One of the 'big deal' things about him, again, to me, is that he is dialed into my type of personality characteristics (+\-). For example, he totally gets my 'let me give you a swift kick to the head' way of dealing with problematic issues I encounter on a daily basis. He also smiles when people mistakenly address me with a "Yes, Sir" rather than a "Yes, Ma'am", although it does not really matter to me because when people do that, I know my physical presentation collides with their perception of me.

The day we found each other is still like a mystery to me, but I can't express enough what a difference he makes in my life.

I heart him with all my heart.

[Nadeest]

The first person that I dated, after I had started transition, was a transman. He was so very sweet and gentle with me, it was unbelievable. I have had a soft spot for them ever since, and would very happily date one again.

[dreadgeek]

This is the first time I've spoken about this publicly. Twenty years ago, I met this butch who rang my little power-femme bell six ways from Sunday. Sam was magnificent. A little taller than me, thick and healthy, short hair, and very very smart. He was moving to Berkeley to attend seminary there.

Right around the end of our first year, he started making noises about transition. I didn't want him to but, of course, given that I had done my own transition only four years prior to meeting him, I couldn't stand in his way. But lesbian was then (and still is) a core identity for me and I couldn't tell myself that we weren't really a heterosexual couple. Being part of what we euphemistically called the women's community was a very important thing for me in my late twenties and early thirties. I wanted my butch, I didn't want a man!

So I broke up with him. I felt guilty for a few years. Then I had the last two women I got interested in while still in SF say that we're I post operative than my being a trans woman wouldn't matter but lesbian meant a lot to them, and while they saw me as a woman they saw my body--well one very specific part--as not. They both said they would probably regret it at some point but I hope not. It's flattering that they said it, but I wish them no ill. How could I? Hadn't I just done the same thing a few years before to Sam? Yes.

I haven't spoken about this because, for the first decade or so, I was ashamed and for the last decade I was afraid of being labeled transphobic. But having finally come out publicly as trans because surgery is so close, I feel I can say this. Leaving Sam, taking him at his word that he is every bit a man as I am a woman was the least transphobic thing I could do. It meant I took him as a man not as a 'man'. If nature hadn't given me the mother-of-all-birth-defects, and I had married a man and then realized I was a lesbian we'd have divorced for the same reason that I had to leave Sean.

It was the only way I could be true to myself, honor Sam being true to himself, and not advocating a position that does violence to the language.

[bright_arrow]

I am bumping this because I feel like it is an important thread.

[girl_dee]

It is important!!

I am one femme who loves her butches just the way they were born.

I love them for where they came, who they are now, and the long road in between.

[Femminator]

I am glad this thread exists. I am married to a handsome MOC Butch, who recently(last year) brought up that they "don't know where they fit on the Butch spectrum" That son turned to "I don't like my breasts" and "I don't feel female, but not male either". They have settled on Nonbinary Butch. I am struggling with the possible T usage coming up and the body hair sure to follow, but I love my Butches masculinity and want them to be happy with who they are. I worry all the time because they don't look female 100% but they don't pass for the males bathroom either. I love them for who they are an always will.

[girl_dee]

I am glad this thread exists. I am married to a handsome MOC Butch, who recently(last year) brought up that they "don't know where they fit on the Butch spectrum" That son turned to "I don't like my breasts" and "I don't feel female, but not male either". They have settled on Nonbinary Butch. I am struggling with the possible T usage coming up and the body hair sure to follow, but I love my Butches masculinity and want them to be happy with who they are. I worry all the time because they don't look female 100% but they don't pass for the males bathroom either. I love them for who they are an always will.

i get this, i would struggle too.