Masculine of Center -- the term [Archive]

Martina

01-16-2013, 06:35 PM

This controversy came up around the Butch Voices conference in 2010 (I think). I wasn't there and did not participate. I just read about it afterwards. I read some of the talk about it here, but did not find the thread.

Anyway, a defense of the term was recently quoted in the Race and Racism thread. I responded for a couple of reasons, but one was that there was no mention of the butch women who have taken issue with the term.

I will point out that I do not know the people from Butch Voices or the people who have criticized the term.

I do not like the term -- MoC. I hope it is not gaining currency. I do think there are some advantages to it. One that was mentioned in the article posted in the Race thread is that it includes men, cis-men, and therefore is a way of building alliances with them.

Here is an article from one of the critics of the term -- part of the BV controversy -- http://butchenough.wordpress.com/2011/07/31/gender-is-a-landscape-not-a-line/

A quote from that

Beyond that, I think “masculine of center” as an umbrella is loaded and problematic. I realize it’s gaining popularity as a term used by individuals to describe themselves, and while I would love for people to really examine the term critically if they haven’t already, people are going to use whatever feels comfortable to them. But I am worried about the institutionalization of the term, its canonization if you will, as the broader description of these various gender identities.

While it may not be the intention of anyone who uses the term, “masculine of center” reduces gender expression down to a simple gradation, with pure femininity on one end and pure masculinity on the other. It is a somewhat antiquated way to think of gender. It basically replicates the current binary gender system but with the concession that your biological sex does not determine which side of the gender line you are allowed to occupy.

And the criticism that the blog article quoted in the Race thread was responding to --

Q: What do you think about the term “masculine of center”?

Halberstam: I think it presumes a center, I’m not sure about that. It presumes a scale that we all know and recognize. I don’t always know that I know what another queer person’s masculinity means anymore. I used to think I knew, but I realized I didn’t. For a lot of young masculine female bodied people who decide to transition, they’re doing so not because they’re so invested in masculinity but because they’re invested in forms of maleness that are then going to be in relation to other forms of maleness. They want to be gay men! In that scenario, masculinity isn’t the most important vector for them, it’s male embodiment or perceived male embodiment. My orientation is very much to feminine women, so butch still seems to have some sort of signifying power, given my set of desires and orientations. But masculine of center presumes that there’s an ideal, and that ideal presumes all kinds of things about race and class, and that we all know an ideal form when we see it. I can’t get into that kind of normative classification system that has a center and has margins. It’s a kind of colonial way of thinking about things, that there is a center and there are margins, and everyone’s aspiring to be center.

The very smart defense of it on terms relating to race -- is here -- http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=730040#post730040

My response is the next post. I am sure there are a number of other articles out and about.

Anyway, those who know, is MoC becoming a more used term? Who is adopting it? Do you like it? Would you adopt it? Is the term just more inclusive -- like queer -- or meant/experienced as a rejection or replacement of other terms? If the latter, why?

If you are femme or otherwise don't ID as someone who might be included in MoC, what are your thoughts?

I do not want this thread to privilege the response of any person, regardless of gender or other ID. That might seem wrong too those whose ID is MoC or butch, trans or ? but that's the way I'd prefer this thread to go.

Corkey

01-16-2013, 07:00 PM

DapperButch

01-16-2013, 09:27 PM

I still have no real clue what this word means. I found this defintion on the Brown Boi Project website: http://www.brownboiproject.org/mission_core_values.html

"Masculine of center (MoC), which, in its evolving definition, recognizes the cultural breadth and depth of identity for lesbian/queer womyn and gender nonconforming/trans people who tilt toward the masculine side of the gender spectrum�including a wide range of identities such as butch, stud, aggressive/AG, macha, dom, trans masculine, boi, etc. (B. Cole, 2008) "

Ok, so why isn't just the word masculine used? Meaning, the definition of the term is people that "tilt toward the masculine side of the gender spectrum". So, why would people not just use the word masculine to describe themselves if that is the definition of the term "masculine of center"?

It makes absolutely no sense to me. Is it a way to pull butch, stud, etc, together as a group? If so, why not just call that masculine identities or something? Why make up a whole new term? What am I missing?

macele

01-16-2013, 10:00 PM

well, my center is not masculine. i am butch, indeed. but not the center of my being. that is way more personal, much deeper than butch or moc. that's how i see it. sure, i own the energy, ... but it's not my center.

i really don't know anything about the word, ... why it was "invented". somebody felt the need to have it, ... so there you go!

Martina

01-16-2013, 10:11 PM

Is it a way to pull butch, stud, etc, together as a group? If so, why not just call that masculine identities or something? Why make up a whole new term? What am I missing?

I think that is it. Like queer has been used. An umbrella term. A lot of butch women were PISSED though. I think they felt that the term butch was being displaced even though none pretended that butch accounts for trans folk, some studs, genderqueer etc.

At the very least, I think they felt like butch was losing some status. That was my sense.

I am speaking for others, but whatever. People can call me on it, and I'll be fine with that.

But other butch women did not appreciate having the masculine part of who they are foregrounded. Butch is an idea that includes woman historically. Masculine of center, no. It's not intended to. I think politically it was tied up with objections to the Butch Voices organization. But that stuff is unknown to me.

The term itself is what I am interested in.

And I put in the red zone because I thought it might get heated, but probably not.

As a femme and a woman, if someone wanted to use feminine of center as an umbrella term, I wouldn't like it. Nothing to do with men who ID as feminine or being included with straight women. I just don't like the idea of femininity being foregrounded. I don't like the center idea. I am more feminine than some folks and less feminine than others. But why should I even be thinking of that re my identity? It may be a starting place. Or part of the puzzle. But wow to making it the naming principal. Uh no.

DapperButch

01-17-2013, 06:42 AM

I think that is it. Like queer has been used. An umbrella term. A lot of butch women were PISSED though. I think they felt that the term butch was being displaced even though none pretended that butch accounts for trans folk, some studs, genderqueer etc.

At the very least, I think they felt like butch was losing some status. That was my sense.

I am speaking for others, but whatever. People can call me on it, and I'll be fine with that.

But other butch women did not appreciate having the masculine part of who they are foregrounded. Butch is an idea that includes woman historically. Masculine of center, no. It's not intended to. I think politically it was tied up with objections to the Butch Voices organization. But that stuff is unknown to me.

The term itself is what I am interested in.

And I put in the red zone because I thought it might get heated, but probably not.

As a femme and a woman, if someone wanted to use feminine of center as an umbrella term, I wouldn't like it. Nothing to do with men who ID as feminine or being included with straight women. I just don't like the idea of femininity being foregrounded. I don't like the center idea. I am more feminine than some folks and less feminine than others. But why should I even be thinking of that re my identity? It may be a starting place. Or part of the puzzle. But wow to making it the naming principal. Uh no.

Got it! Makes sense...the whole naming principle...it being the guiding part of the definition of an identity may bother some...and you are suggesting more likely butch women than other masculine identities (I too saw the evidence that it bothered this identity more than others). Thanks!

Boots13

01-17-2013, 07:46 AM

This came up in a conversation yesterday...interesting that I've spent so much time in my life just "being" and now I'm a being using dangerous and marginalized terms in an effort to describe a jumping off point about being me.

I have always said "I am me" . I know internally where and who I am, but in order for the world to know, and in order for me to be able to parlay verbally my 'orientations' and proclivities I utilize words that describe a jumping off point, a baseline, a point of easy though perhaps inhospitable (?) recognition so that I can then direct this trajectory to define ME, to start a trajectory AWAY FROM CENTER that describes who I am. Though I have not used the term masculine of center (what is center?) I do start conversations from a recognizable waypoint (center?) .

And there is my conundrum, who recognizes center? Is it mainstream? That smacks of patriarchal archetype. Is it working class that recognizes "center"? I struggle for words to start an association. I build a box, only to break out of it. Thats what we do, isnt it? DisAssociate ourselves from center as we vector ourselves through recognized (though not necessarily accepted) definitions and identifications.

Is that restrictive? Or a jumping off point to further build upon what we already know...masculine of center. The more I read and say the words masculine of center, the more offensive it feels...I think its the "center" part.
So whats the alternative in this Brave New World? If not masculine of center what words do we use in an effort to verbally project our departure from an exclusionary, elitist, patriarchal "normal" called center ?

GREAT thread, thank you for starting it.

Dude

01-17-2013, 08:52 AM

starryeyes

01-17-2013, 09:46 AM

Feminine of center is a definite no-go for me. It lacks an identity, as you stated in your post. Femme is in every fiber of my being. Taking that away is not an option. I can relate to what others are feeling about "masculine of center".

how do femmes feel about

Feminine of center?

this would include straight women? Not femmes in my world
my grandmother, my aunts and my sisters?

drag queens? Who I fucking adore but choose not to
sleep with. Although , there was this one (f) I nearly followed home , way back in the day.

too muddy for my taste

people Know what butch is

so lets squash that word out like lesbian and dyke have been?

no thank you

nowandthen

01-17-2013, 03:52 PM

I am involved in these conversations in many places and in my own life. When I first heard the term MoC I too was "What center" but then I had more than one conversation in-person and on-line. I agree that for me it is not a umbrella term, but I do agree that it is a identity many I know use. I looked up the history of the term Butch and below is one example.

"Prior to the middle of the 20th century in Western culture, homosexual societies were mostly underground or secret, which makes it difficult to determine how long butch and femme roles have been practiced by women. Photographs exist of butch-femme couples in the decade of 1910–1920 in the United States; they were then called "transvestites""

All the terms we have come to know or use for ourselves come out of a medical industry supporting difference through bad science. They come from a White Eurocentric Heteronormative relationship to bodies and the need to gender and define those bodies and identities for markers to police.

One of the struggles that we all come back to is the lack of language and the attachment to what is already in the lexicon. We will never all come into agreement in my life time, but the power to name is fundamental to self, class and race always impact the relationship to power and naming. An example is the letters LGBT , I write them TBLG why, because the LGBT Power/Money players do not have any authority in my life. No one is in-charge, yet money and power seem to give folks the ability to say who and what community is and those of us outside of that fight for visibility. I am not pro-assimilation, I am a prison abolitionist, I am not a morning person, I am white, queer and masculine only because of the need for others comfort, because when I say masculine or butch it is and will never the same as someone else.

I was at the community meeting at the last BV, I participated because difference should not mean to discount, judge, or name others. This is hard and painful work for me and the communities I move in. I have an intimate relationship with the pain of being a body marked as Butch by lesbians and the larger world. What is painful is the knowledge that I was told more times than I can count that how I looked was not dyke, If I wanted a man I date a man, the 70's-90's brought us more clarity on the body, sex, and identity so yes the expansion of knowledge allows for change, I for one have a hard time with change, I know that those naming themselves MoC have no more legitimacy than those called butch to the process of naming others. So maybe the work is to name ourselves and give others the same right.

Medusa

01-17-2013, 04:40 PM

Hmm.

Dude, I appreciate you asking about "Feminine of Center" and how that would feel to me.

In short, I don't want it.

I will tell you that Jack and I have had multiple conversations in our home about the continued expansion and redefinition of "Butch" and "Masculine of Center" feels like another piece of that expansion and redefinition.

I'm not Butch or "Masculine of Center" but the term doesn't sit all that well with me, mainly because I have huge issues with what I feel is the erasure of something super specific so that everyone's brand of "way of being" can feel included. Now, I will own that there is probably some privilege in there somewhere but, for the most part, I think that having a "center" when it comes to gender implies that there might be a baseline.
(eta: and not intending to imply that everyone shouldn't be included, but I think we don't have to remove someone else's identity so that ours can be included)

In my mind, there isnt. There may be a super patriarchal norm. There may be a historically accepted paperdoll. There is not, however, an agreed-upon center of gender in the Butch/Femme world, in the Gay world, or even in the straight world.

I get the drive to examine the labels that we've inherited. I do think there is a time when we also have to accept that some folks in our community DO accept the labels and even embrace them as "home".
That's some subversive shit!

Corkey

01-17-2013, 04:52 PM

Ginger

01-17-2013, 04:56 PM

yeah, I hear what Corkey and Medusa are saying in different ways, questioning what is "the center."

It's like we used to say "a spectrum" of identities, an arc, and now the ends of the arc are touching, and it's a circle. Without a "center," just has a circle has an infinite number of sides.

It's confusing, though. I often use the term, "stereotypically" male or female or "culturally defined" as male or female, masculate or feminine.

It's like I don't want to get in trouble for making myself the arbiter of where that center lies.

macele

01-17-2013, 05:00 PM

i've never been just totally in like of lesbian, dyke, queer, etc. we need labels for others and ourselves. i'm older now lol. i think that's the difference for me. i'm not looking for words/labels to identify with. i'm ok with change, ... it's a must at times. i'd make a guess and say that somebody didn't like butch, ... it felt outdated to them, ... and they wanted something to connect with, new. i hope it worked. sincerely.

Medusa

01-17-2013, 05:01 PM

I'd like to submit too that "mascunlinity" may not define some Butch women who view their way of being, not as "masculine", but just as a Butch brand of Feminine.

The_Lady_Snow

01-17-2013, 05:09 PM

how do femmes feel about

Feminine of center?

this would include straight women? Not femmes in my world
my grandmother, my aunts and my sisters?

drag queens? Who I fucking adore but choose not to
sleep with. Although , there was this one (f) I nearly followed home , way back in the day.

too muddy for my taste

people Know what butch is

so lets squash that word out like lesbian and dyke have been?

no thank you

I personally do not care nor like that Dude, here is why:

It will create a heirarchy amongst Women, there are already enough ridiculous expectations on what defines feminine. Plus we all know sometimes feminine is born into a male bodied Woman.

So for *me* I wouldn't care for it, I certainly would NOT attend any kind of Femme Conference if all of a sudden someone decided to change the wording or add Feminine of Center.

*I* feel that's how BV pushed butch women and their voices out.

That's just my feeling on it which by the way is not up for argument. :hk2:

aishah

01-17-2013, 05:23 PM

feminine-of-center is a pretty common term in the femme of color circles i run in, used similarly to masculine-of-center. i view it as an umbrella term, not necessarily an identity (most masculine-of-center folks don't -id- as moc, they id as stud, butch, aggressive, etc.). i understand that it is problematic because it can reinforce the gender binary. at the same time, i think in some communities these designations are helpful for some people. in queer communities where folks identify with queer masculinity, sometimes masculine of center can be helpful (likewise with feminine of center - in my circles this is inclusive of cis femmes, trans women, femme men, gq femmes, etc.). and also can be a useful contrast to androgynous or genderqueer (although some gq folks also identify as butch or femme. not all do). i know plenty of masculine-of-center folks who identify as women. and i know some feminine-of-center folks who identify as men. personally, i'm ambivalent. i use the term if i am trying to communicate something specific in a group where it's commonly understood...otherwise i really don't use it that much.

also i think it is interesting, given that this term was coined by members of the brown boi project and is primarily used by black studs and butches, that people who are not in those communities are saying they don't want it to apply to them and they think it's wrong. if you don't want it to apply to you and you think it's wrong...don't use it???

Parker

01-17-2013, 05:29 PM

I dont like it.

Part of that is from what others have stated - the whole, "what is the 'center'?" arguments, as well as the inclusion/exclusion arguments; and, of course, the hierarchy of it butch - that's been around forever.

But mostly, I really hate when people try to label me or tell me who I am.

I get that enough from straight people who dont understand what or who a butch woman is - hell, I was labeled as "whatever" just the other day by a woman in the store who first said, "that woman" then changed her answer to "that man" and then just decided on "whatever" - that feels lovely, let me tell you.

So whether it is masculine of center, cis, he/hy, etc., or even "whatever," I dont like when someone else thrusts a label onto me for any reason; and that's what this feels like: someone other than me describing who I am.

Parker no likey.

aishah

01-17-2013, 05:37 PM

some background on the term and about b. cole, the woman-identified butch who coined it:

http://oaklandlocal.com/article/queer-oakland-b-cole-and-brown-boi-project

Corkey

01-17-2013, 05:40 PM

Still no enlightenment on what "center" means in this context.

aishah

01-17-2013, 05:44 PM

this article by sinclair sexsmith has some background on how butch voices came to use the term, including a diagram of one way to understand "center":
http://www.sugarbutch.net/2011/08/a-little-bit-about-butch-voices-butch-nation-and-masculine-of-center/comment-page-1/

The word “masculine of center:”

My understanding is that the Butch Voices revised mission statement includes this word as an umbrella term, to encompass a myriad of identities. Also from the mission statement: “Masculine of center (MoC) is a term, coined by B. Cole of the Brown Boi Project, that recognizes the breadth and depth of identity for lesbian/queer/ womyn who tilt toward the masculine side of the gender scale and includes a wide range of identities such as butch, stud, aggressive/AG, dom, macha, tomboi, trans-masculine etc.”

The term is meant to be more inclusive than a term like “butch,” which is loaded for many people, and which has historically been predominantly adopted by white folks.

This isn’t the first term to come around that has attempted to encompass these many masculine queer identities—remember transmasculine? That was a hot one for a year or so there, but was declared too problematic to keep using, particularly in the ways that it wasn’t inclusive enough of trans women.

Maybe this begs the question of whether or not an umbrella term is necessary at all. As someone who writes about this stuff frequently, my opinion is that yes, it is important to have a term. Not only that, but it’s important to see the connections between us, to look at the places where we overlap, and to use those to build bridges and build stronger community activism and connection around our shared oppression. Because all of us within these individual identities, we may or may not date the same type of person, we may or may not have the same spiritual beliefs, we may or may not identify as feminist, we may or may not wear the same type of underwear, but there is something that unites us: our masculinity.

(I would argue that our masculinity is intentional, though I know there’s some disagreements about that. I’ve also heard, lately, people arguing that they are “butch women,” and therefore “not masculine,” but I’d like to challenge that there is a fundamental difference between male and masculine, and that a woman can be masculine and still be women.)

Having something to unite us is powerful, and most of the words that this world has come up with to use as an umbrella term haven’t been far-fetched and uniting enough. Is this term? I don’t know. Personally, I like the term “masculine of center.” I wouldn’t use it in a sentence to describe myself, like I wouldn’t introduce myself by saying, “I identify as masculine of center,” but I would absolutely say that I identify as butch and that I believe butch falls under that umbrella, just like it is a sort of trans-ish identity, sometimes, for me, as well. I wouldn’t correct someone if they said I was masculine of center. I also don’t tend to identify myself as a “lesbian,” I’m much more likely to call myself a dyke, or, even more so, queer, but I wouldn’t correct someone if they called me that. It’s not my identity word of choice, but it is accurate.

Holding so tight to one singular identity word and no others gets us into such rigid places. When one word and only one word is an accurate description of one’s self, then of course a larger umbrella term will feel bad. And of course one will only feel good about being connected to and associated with other people who identify with that term. The problem is, I think, that the term itself is just a starting place. It’s just the thing that starts these deeper, elevated conversations, the invitation to say, “Okay, what does that mean for you? How did you come to that word, that identity? How does that identity play out in your daily life?”

Because, like Dacia reminded me when we talked about this last week, the map is not the territory. Even if we have mapped something out with language, what matters is the application to our daily, minute-by-minute lives. And what matters is, to me, the connections that we make, the interconnectivity we find with others who are struggling through similar issues that we are, and what we do about it to move ourselves forward.

I know identity politics are incredibly loaded—fuck, the words I call myself have been vastly important to me, I’m not trying to belittle that struggle. It is huge. The act of naming one’s self, especially in the face of oppression and marginalization, is complicated and powerful. I just hope that we can have more looseness in some of these discussions, as they go forward.

One more thing about masculine of center … I’ve read a few places, in response to this Butch Voices/Butch Nation stuff, that the word “masculine of center” reinforces the binary, and that gender is more complex than a linear spectrum, etc etc.

Funny, I never think of “masculine of center” as implying a linear, 2D scale, with masculine on one side and feminine on the other. All sorts of shapes have centers, and I tend to think of the gender map as a 3D circle, a galaxy even (though that is much harder to map), or perhaps a shorthand of a 2D circle if I’m trying to simplify it a little more.

I ran across this on Tumblr not too long ago, and it’s stuck with me:

http://www.sugarbutch.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/genderspectrum.jpg
From the creator:

Because it’s already established, I have put F, standing for Feminine gender, as red, and M, standing for Masculine gender, as blue. Going nicely with the pansexual flag colours, I have put O for Other gender (though part of me feels I should have put Third gender) as yellow. … Each gender/colour fades down to centre, where I have put A for Agender. … With this wheel, you can say “I am somewhere between masculine and other, but it’s not a really gendered gender” and it makes sense, because you point at light green (which looks like turquoise, but this was the best wheel I found). You can say “If I’m anything, I’m feminine” and it makes sense, because you point at light pink. And bigender? Sometimes *here* and sometimes *here*. Genderqueer is anything that isn’t red or blue, I think.
I think there are more genders than just this, but I also think it’s a pretty good place to start. Definitely a vast improvement from the linear spectrum, and I like the idea of all those gradient colors.

So my point, if I have one, is that I like the word “masculine of center,” and I think it’s useful for trying to unite many, many folks who struggle with a masculine identity in the queer worlds. As I’m continuing to be a part of building a better understanding of female masculinity and butch identity in this world, I think it is incredibly important to be talking to other people who have overlapping or complimentary experiences to my own, and to swap theories and survival tactics, to share war stories over beers, to have some respite before we go back and fight the good fights.

Parker

01-17-2013, 05:56 PM

also i think it is interesting, given that this term was coined by members of the brown boi project and is primarily used by black studs and butches, that people who are not in those communities are saying they don't want it to apply to them and they think it's wrong. if you don't want it to apply to you and you think it's wrong...don't use it???

This doesnt always work when someone else uses the term for you.

For example: I dont want "he" applied to me and not only do I not use it or other male pronouns when speaking about myself, I even state my preference right over there <--- but sometimes "he" is still applied to me, regardless.

When an organization such as Butch Voices changes the verbiage in their mission statement by using "masculine of center" in an effort to create some sort of umbrella term that will not only describe ALL Butches everywhere, but will also lump a bunch of other IDs in together with Butches, that's a bunch of people labeling other people whether they want it to be applied to them or not.

For me, this isnt about Butches of color and Studs using a term that I wouldnt use to describe myself, this is about an organization using the term to describe me whether I want them to or not, whether I agree with them or not, and whether I even like the term or not.

To be frank, that feels icky.

Corkey

01-17-2013, 05:59 PM

Medusa

01-17-2013, 06:04 PM

also i think it is interesting, given that this term was coined by members of the brown boi project and is primarily used by black studs and butches, that people who are not in those communities are saying they don't want it to apply to them and they think it's wrong. if you don't want it to apply to you and you think it's wrong...don't use it???

I'll have to see if I can find the dicusssion, it's been a long time ago (maybe 5 or 6 years ago), but it was actually suggested at one point that "Butch" was a racist label for some of the same reasons. (that it was primarly used by white people)

I think that the intention to make a term that felt more inclusive for the BV conferences was a good one at heart but the way in which it was carried out was highly problematic for a lot of Butches. I know I read some really interesting discussion on several blogs where masculine Lesbians of Color who did not use the term "Butch" or "Stud" talked about feeling erased by many attempts to create language around their specific identities.

aishah

01-17-2013, 06:06 PM

Medusa

01-17-2013, 06:08 PM

I would also submit that Masculinity and Femininity aren't necessarily on opposite ends of the spectrum or opposite sides of a circle from one another.

Attempts to diagram gender often end up with a big "M" on one end and a big "F" on the other end with multiple identities getting plotted somewhere in between. This is hierarchal to me and often ends up feeling erasing of Trans identities.

I think in a perfect world, gender would be a 3D pool where all of our various molecules and atoms bump and collide into one another, exist within and outside of one another, and gain strength and power from one another.

aishah

01-17-2013, 06:09 PM

Ok I can find an understanding in this as I use the circle as my way of thinking how I perceive gender fluidity. The Agender though, huh? What pray tell is Agender. Sorry I do not know this.
My circle, the way I perceive gender has no beginning and no end, therefore no hierarchy, no one is greater than the whole.

http://hellyeahagender.tumblr.com/faq

What does it mean to be agender? What do agender people feel? How does someone know if they’re agender?
The prefix a- means without, lacking, or not, which means that the word agender means ‘without gender’ or ‘lacking gender’. When a person is agender, it basically means that they don’t have a gender—or, in some cases, it means that they feel gender-neutral. A person knows that they’re agender just like a person with any other gender identity knows what they are—it’s how you feel inside. This best descriptor for being agender I’ve seen is this: gender is a language that agender people don’t speak.
Do agender people experience dysphoria? Do agender people want to transition? Do agender people have preferred pronouns? Are all agender people androgynous? Are all agender people asexual? Are all agender people also neutrois?
All of these things vary from person to person and there isn’t one set standard for all agender people. Some agender people experience dysphoria, while some do not. Some agender people have preferred pronouns, while some do not. Some agender people want to transition, some do not. Some agender people are androgynous, some are not. Some agender people are asexual, some are not. Some agender people also identify as neutrois and some do not.

neutrois is also helpful to research... http://neutrois.com/

Corkey

01-17-2013, 06:15 PM

Then Agender belongs in the circle, not at a point where all other genders diverge. See the problem I'm having with this? To me MoC is just another way of identifying for an individual, and like Parker when other people use a identifier that I do not identify with, to identify me, there is a problem.

aishah

01-17-2013, 06:16 PM

i'll stop post-spamming after this - i just wanted to provide some context for where the term "masculine of center" (and "feminine of center") came from and how it is used.

http://brownboiproject.org/BBP%20Toward%20Healthy%20and%20Whole.pdf has a lot of info about brown boi's approach to understanding masculinity and gender and might be helpful for those wondering about the context of "masculine of center" and its meaning in (some) poc communities.

to me...masculine of center is no better or worse an umbrella term than queer, lgbt, gender non-conforming, etc. they're all problematic and everyone is bound to find something wrong with some of them, or not want to use them. but they can be useful for some people to communicate some things within some contexts.

Corkey

01-17-2013, 06:23 PM

aishah

01-17-2013, 06:35 PM

okay, i lied, one more quote...

And here is one of the biggest problems I see: in many white spaces of resistance, the focus becomes a question of naming something and how proximate that name is to the core of what is being named. The prioritization of the name/naming does not allow for a meaningful engagement with the work that is actually being done under that name. This is one of the most insidious products of (middle class) white culture, the desire to name people and communities in a way that speaks for itself, without having to see what has led to the naming and what are the effects of the actions of those named. It is with this logic that major multinational corporations can carry mantras of “do no evil” and “spreading progress” while simultaneously wreaking economic, political, and social havoc across the globe. There is so much more than what’s in a name.

The term “masculine of center” (MoC) was coined in a progressive, social justice-oriented community of color that seeks to find sustainable and ethical representations and practices of alternative masculinities that can contribute to the empowerment of marginalized genders (including women, girls, young boys, and transpeople). Mincing words between maleness/masculinity/center/margins/etc. distracts from the work that goes on under the label of MoC. o do so takes away from the effects of the groups who take on this label, and the ramifications are especially harmful when such careless speech comes from a respected queer theorist. Additionally, identity and labeling in many communities of color do not usually take on the same priority that labeling takes on in white spaces I’ve observed. It appears to be an epistemological priority of whiteness to be able to identify, categorize, and manage expectations accordingly. Even trying to break identities apart is something that can only be fully carried out in white spaces, where intersections are not something that are necessarily viscerally acknowledged and understood on the day-to-day level (making the statement “masculinity is not the most important vector” an incomprehensible thought in many POC spaces, as it requires imagining that parts of ourselves must always reign supreme over others). To fixate on language, on finding the best and most perfect way to describe something, is to play into dynamics of truth and knowledge production that often marginalize and delegitimize the complicated relationships to resistance that exist within communities of color.

from the article that was posted in the race and racism thread (this is the part directly following the part martina quoted).

Corkey

01-17-2013, 06:40 PM

I don't want to judge or label, just understand. In communication there has to be a definition that people can understand. ''Center' has yet to be explained in a way that meets a logical understanding of the word, for me.

aishah

01-17-2013, 07:10 PM

i don't have any good explanation for the word "center," personally, except for the fact that in the past gender has been understood as a spectrum, with masculinity on one end and femininity on the other, and some people still understand it that way. even if they acknowledge that it's imperfect. when we do gender 101 at the lgbt muslim retreat, we use the "genderbread" man, which makes heavy use of spectrum imagery to explain sex, gender, presentation, orientation, and all other sorts of things. assuming that everyone is on a spectrum, or occupies only one place on a spectrum, or isn't off in the abyss somewhere, is highly problematic. yet it is also primary way that sexual orientation and gender identity are communicated in the dominant euro-american culture.

while i was washing dishes, an analogy occurred to me. i don't know if this is helpful or not for folks who are resistant of any space they interact in being labeled "masculine of center." but...i hate the term "bisexual." i detest it. i think it is biologically essentializing and it marginalizes trans people. i don't feel that it describes me at all and i don't want it anywhere near me and it makes me feel 1000 different kinds of gross.

at the same time, i am a femme who is attracted to more than one gender. in that way, i share the lived experience with bisexual-id'ed people of being attracted to more than one gender. i share the lived experience of being labeled slutty, confused, not gay enough, not straight enough. in the lgbt acronym, i don't really feel all that included, but i understand more or less that the "b" is supposed to be inclusive of people like me. many of the main resources, publications, etc. about people who share my lived experiences use the term "bisexual." i may hate it and think it is a shitty descriptor, but if i want to interact with people who have similar lived experiences in mainstream spaces, "bisexual" is a commonly accepted descriptor, so i've learned to deal with it and try not to cringe too much.

from my understanding, the term "masculine of center" originated from the belief that butches, studs, transmen, aggressives, bois, etc. share similar lived experiences of transgressing gender boundaries and being marginalized because they present in ways traditionally understood as masculine but were assigned female at birth (and many still identify as female/woman). there are also many differences between them, but they share some commonalities.

i think it's also relevant to point out that the butch voices conference is called BUTCH voices, and the first identity listed under "what identities is this conference for" is BUTCH. not "masculine of center." so i don't really understand the freak-out over butch voices being taken over by the term "masculine of center." they didn't change the name to masculine of center voices...? they just attempted to be more inclusive by adding a term that has currency among butches/studs/aggressives/bois of color.

to me, building solidarity with other people who share similar struggles and lived experiences is more important than worrying about which label is used. i agree with the quote from the piece that was posted in the race thread that abstract battles over labels can sometimes get in the way of doing meaningful solidarity work. i don't think that we should never problematize labels. but...it seems like this battle has gotten in the way of building connections between predominantly white butch communities and masculine-of-center communities of color.

Parker

01-17-2013, 07:16 PM

butch voices' website clearly says

"What identities are under the BUTCH Voices umbrella?
Butch, Stud, Aggressive (AG), Macha, Dom, Tomboi, genderqueer, two-spirit, Trans men who identify as Masculine of Center and all other similar identities."

the first descriptor on the list is "butch." "masculine of center" is added onto a list of identities. to me, the term is self-selecting - like queer. if i hated the term queer and didn't want it used in reference to me, BUT it was commonly understood that queer spaces were inclusive of me as a same-gender-loving person and/or those spaces said "we welcome queer people, same-gender loving people, lesbians, gays..." - at that point, to me, it is semantics. masculine of center applies to anyone who wants to identify that way. some people use it to be inclusive of butches, studs, aggressives, etc. when speaking. not everyone likes it. not everyone likes gender non-conforming, but if i say the words "gender non-conforming" people will more or less get that i mean folks who transgress gender boundaries and that is inclusive of trans and butch people. it doesn't mean everyone has to like it or use it in reference to themselves. welcome to alphabet soup land - everyone constantly bitches about which word to use.

this term was also used before butch voices chose to adopt it, and is used in many communities outside of butch voices, and in my understanding, this thread was to talk about the term itself, not butch voices. if a lot of butches don't want butch voices to use the term...that is an internal conversation to have in the butch voices community. but that doesn't have any bearing on how the term is used outside of butch voices.

i've been researching the history of the arguments over the term, and i am repeatedly struck by the fact that this is a term that is predominantly meaningful in poc queer communities, and many qpoc feel alienated in white lesbian, queer, and trans* spaces, and almost all of the backlash against the term has happened AFTER predominantly white spaces have started using it in an effort to be more inclusive of qpoc, and the majority of the backlash is from white folks.

While I was responding to this, my browser crashed, which gave me a chance to think about whether I really wanted to respond in the way that I was and I do not.

Perhaps I am sorely misunderstanding you, but this post of yours felt like you just told me that I am bitching about semantics and if I dont like the term masculine of center then not only should I just not use it, but I should just suck it up when others use it to describe me because we ALL have to deal with that.

Or as Monica Gellar once said, "Welcome to the real world, it sucks."

If I understood you correctly, you could see why that could be a little off-putting for a woman who is a butch to hear a woman who is not a butch say that about a term that is sometimes used to describe butches.

It also sounded like you told me what I could and could not talk about in this thread and forum, re: Butch Voices. To clarify, I spoke about BV in part because speaking about BV provided what I felt was a relevant example to my dislike at using that term as an umbrella for all of us to sit under, happily.

Someone created a thread about the term masculine of center and asked us what we all thought and felt about the term, do we like it, would we use it, etc and I was responding to that.

But I dont seem to be making my point clear about how my objections are not based on what terms POC do or do not use or even about whether others use the term, masculine of center to include POC in their writings, organizations, etc.; my objections stem from people using this term to describe ME without my consent. Not POC, not people who like the term, ME.

Corkey

01-17-2013, 07:17 PM

i don't have any good explanation for the word "center," personally, except for the fact that in the past gender has been understood as a spectrum, with masculinity on one end and femininity on the other, and some people still understand it that way. even if they acknowledge that it's imperfect. when we do gender 101 at the lgbt muslim retreat, we use the "genderbread" man, which makes heavy use of spectrum imagery to explain sex, gender, presentation, orientation, and all other sorts of things. assuming that everyone is on a spectrum, or occupies only one place on a spectrum, or isn't off in the abyss somewhere, is highly problematic. yet it is also primary way that sexual orientation and gender identity are communicated in the dominant euro-american culture.

while i was washing dishes, an analogy occurred to me. i don't know if this is helpful or not for folks who are resistant of any space they interact in being labeled "masculine of center." but...i hate the term "bisexual." i detest it. i think it is biologically essentializing and it marginalizes trans people. i don't feel that it describes me at all and i don't want it anywhere near me and it makes me feel 1000 different kinds of gross.

at the same time, i am a femme who is attracted to more than one gender. in that way, i share the lived experience with bisexual-id'ed people of being attracted to more than one gender. i share the lived experience of being labeled slutty, confused, not gay enough, not straight enough. in the lgbt acronym, i don't really feel all that included, but i understand more or less that the "b" is supposed to be inclusive of people like me. many of the main resources, publications, etc. about people who share my lived experiences use the term "bisexual." i may hate it and think it is a shitty descriptor, but if i want to interact with people who have similar lived experiences in mainstream spaces, "bisexual" is a commonly accepted descriptor, so i've learned to deal with it and try not to cringe too much.

from my understanding, the term "masculine of center" originated from the belief that butches, studs, transmen, aggressives, bois, etc. share similar lived experiences of transgressing gender boundaries and being marginalized because they present in ways traditionally understood as masculine but were assigned female at birth (and many still identify as female/woman). there are also many differences between them, but they share some commonalities.

i think it's also relevant to point out that the butch voices conference is called BUTCH voices, and the first identity listed under "what identities is this conference for" is BUTCH. not "masculine of center."

to me, building solidarity with other people who share similar struggles and lived experiences is more important than worrying about which label is used. i agree with the quote from the piece that was posted in the race thread that abstract battles over labels can sometimes get in the way of doing meaningful solidarity work.

I'm totally down with the work, it's always the details that are the problem. I don't think using a descriptor that is vague at best is abstract. *shrugs* I don't know what the answer is, or will be, but I'm open to the work of inclusion for all Humans. Thanks for the attempt at enlightening me.

aishah

01-17-2013, 07:36 PM

Perhaps I am sorely misunderstanding you, but this post of yours felt like you just told me that I am bitching about semantics and if I dont like the term masculine of center then not only should I just not use it, but I should just suck it up when others use it to describe me because we ALL have to deal with that.

Or as Monica Gellar once said, "Welcome to the real world, it sucks."

If I understood you correctly, you could see why that could be a little off-putting for a woman who is a butch to hear a woman who is not a butch say that about a term that is sometimes used to describe butches.

It also sounded like you told me what I could and could not talk about in this thread and forum, re: Butch Voices. To clarify, I spoke about BV in part because speaking about BV provided what I felt was a relevant example to my dislike at using that term as an umbrella for all of us to sit under, happily.

no, i was not attempting to tell you what you could and could not talk about and what you could and could not take offense to.

i was attempting to provide another perspective in this thread in which the predominant view has been that "masculine of center" is a bad term, and most of the discussion has been by people outside of the community in which masculine of center was coined/is used.

i accept that you don't want the term used in reference to you. i'm not trying to police what you can and cannot post about. i apologize if it came off that way.

yes, in a way, i am saying "this is the real world, get used to it" - because it sucks and it is still good to have these arguments but the reality is there has NEVER been a term in lgbt/queer/butch/femme/insert label here history that has made anybody happy or been unproblematic. that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it at all. i just...think there should be an element of realism, which is, every single conversation about labels in the history of the world, and this site, has resulted in disagreement. you don't have to agree with me that people should get used to that, i just think it's helpful to point out that that's the nature of language. i'm not saying anyone has to agree. your mileage may vary.

i am really, really sorry if i came off as directive. that wasn't my intention and i fucked up.

Kelt

01-17-2013, 07:38 PM

This conversation has made me think today.

To be honest, I rarely think about labels and identities. I think that may be because the only place in my life where there seems to be any need for it is here. I am sure others have occasion to identify themselves as some specific label out in the world. I simply do not. When I am here (on this specific website) I find it is easier from a conversational point of view to have for myself, and to see in others, what general area of the gender spectrum they see themselves. If someone specifies a gender pronoun preference, I respect that and the rest of the time just leave gender out of it.

Beyond conversation in a BF online community, I have not needed it. I walk down the street wearing my face and chosen clothing style and it seems that to the degree needed, folks figure out what they will think and do so. If someone is labeling me in their own mind it could include many things, I cannot change their assessment of what they see. They will also categorize my race, age, height, etc. No one is forcing an identity on me beyond what they see visually, and how they process that through their own filters. When they get to know me, their assessments may change and include variations of gender. I never know.

Offline, in the 'real' world, I have never felt the need for a highly refined label. I suppose if I went to an event of some sort and someone slapped a "Hello - I'm a __________" on my lapel without asking if I wanted that; then maybe it would matter to me and I could take it off. Maybe that is what this is about. It is interesting to think about though.

Sorry, no insight here. Just an observation.

Corkey

01-17-2013, 07:47 PM

I think people are still trying to understand. Folks have said that they don't agree with the term being used for them, and I take them at their word. However when the term is used loosely with out a context that is agreed upon, (center), it muddies the field and yep we slip all over the place. So I'm in it to learn, not make pronouncements on anyone else's gender identity. My best read of the thread so far.

Martina

01-17-2013, 07:53 PM

I remembered when I learned that a lot of gay men in Detroit -- and elsewhere I am sure -- ID'd as homosexual, but not gay. This was in the 90's. Even after the early days of HIV and the organizing around it -- and the contact that created between privileged white gay men and everyone else -- a lot of African American gay men had no sense that they belonged in the gay community. And I mean out, exclusively homosexual men. My best friend back home is an African American gay man. He ID's as gay. He has white gay friends, but over time his community became more African American -- and gay or homosexual. But the more contact I had with his world -- I'd always had a fair amt of contact with white gay men -- the more I realized how much fucking WORK it is for Black men to deal with gay white men and their world. It's tiring. And it's just not home for many of them. So I had a lot of respect for the men who didn't ID as gay. One had a Ph.D. and was a professional queer -- ran an agency. So he had had extensive contact with white institutions. But he still did not ID as gay. Again, totally respect that. White gay male culture just wasn't a fit. Wasn't home. Had never been welcoming to many African American men.

So I get that. I get not feeling a strong pull toward identifiers that maybe never worked for you. I have no problem with anyone ID'ing or self-describing any way they want.

And truly I am not interested in BV politics.

But MoC is put forward as an umbrella term to INCLUDE butch women and other folks. If they don't fit under the umbrella, are they no longer included?

ANd if it's OK with you to not include specific groups, yer making a statement, moving your politics and your community in a particular direction -- deliberately.

But all that aside, my objections to the term do not come from an attachment to other terms. For one thing, I am not butch. I think that foregrounding gender presentation, and calling it masculine, is highly questionable, even without the idea of a spectrum or a center.

It's not just that it excludes people. It makes masculinity the defining characteristic of members of the group. Well, guess what, sometimes I am masculine. I do not ID as MoC or butch or any of the things in those lists. And sometimes my masculinity is not just how I dress, but something deeply internal. Why is masculinity the province of someone else? And have those same people abjured femininity? If so, what kind of sexist consequences are we gonna see from that??

And come on, seriously, isn't creating a gender label called masculine anything and using the word "center" putting oneself on the male side of the conventional binary without problematizing it? Isn't it then reinforcing the binary? To pretend otherwise is naive, in my opinion. Some people won't find that a problem. That's cool. But others will. And if they do not feel comfortable being described as MoC, does that limit their presence in the community if the term gains currency?

Parker

01-17-2013, 07:58 PM

no, i was not attempting to tell you what you could and could not talk about and what you could and could not take offense to.

i was attempting to provide another perspective in this thread in which the predominant view has been that "masculine of center" is a bad term, and most of the discussion has been by people outside of the community in which masculine of center was coined/is used.

i accept that you don't want the term used in reference to you. i'm not trying to police what you can and cannot post about. i apologize if it came off that way.

yes, in a way, i am saying "this is the real world, get used to it" - because it sucks and it is still good to have these arguments but the reality is there has NEVER been a term in lgbt/queer/butch/femme/insert label here history that has made anybody happy or been unproblematic. that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it at all. i just...think there should be an element of realism, which is, every single conversation about labels in the history of the world, and this site, has resulted in disagreement. you don't have to agree with me that people should get used to that, i just think it's helpful to point out that that's the nature of language. i'm not saying anyone has to agree. your mileage may vary.

i am really, really sorry if i came off as directive. that wasn't my intention and i fucked up.

Thanks for coming back and clarifying. :)

For the record, I dont think it's necessarily a bad term; but I, personally wouldnt use it to describe myself.

To be honest, I would object to any term that anyone would use to describe me when I have not consented to being described in that way. For me, it isnt the term (any term, not just MoC), it is the actions of those who might use it.

Martina

01-17-2013, 08:05 PM

I would just like to reiterate that while masculinity has always been a characteristic of butches, transmen, generqueer and others, it has not necessarily been the defining characteristic.

Making it the defining quality makes me wanna urp. I LIKE masculinity. I think it is HOT. Do not get me wrong. But if it is the defining quality of butches, for example, that makes everything else that butches are secondary or individual qualities, not as noteworthy somehow.

It encourages a hyper awareness and valorization of masculinity. That's not where I'd go if it were my ID, my umbrella term.

Isn't that already a kind of bone of contention among some members of the groups covered by the term? So to make it part of the umbrella term pretty much decides the issue -- in favor of the folks who foreground masculine gender presentation as part of their ID.

That to me is an issue that might also be generational. African American butches of MY generation often did their nails and wore earrings -- the dangly kind. I am serious. Lots of Black butches in my day had some interesting combinations of masculine and feminine going on in their gender presentation. Still do.

ANd seriously, as an older person, some of the least pleasing things I have witnessed among younger folks has been when they have worked a lot too hard on being masculine rather than being who they are in all their glory.

aishah

01-17-2013, 08:14 PM

But MoC is put forward as an umbrella term to INCLUDE butch women and other folks. If they don't fit under the umbrella, are they no longer included?

well, the term was coined by a butch woman. so...? i guess it is inclusive of butch women who identify with it and some butch women do not identify with it? because many butch women of color do id as masculine of center, i don't think the term is meant to be exclusive of butch women.

It's not just that it excludes people. It makes masculinity the defining characteristic of members of the group. Well, guess what, sometimes I am masculine. I do not ID as MoC or butch or any of the things in those lists. And sometimes my masculinity is not just how I dress, but something deeply internal. Why is masculinity the province of someone else? And have those same people abjured femininity? If so, what kind of sexist consequences are we gonna see from that??

And come on, seriously, isn't creating a gender label called masculine anything and using the word "center" putting oneself on the male side of the conventional binary without problematizing it? Isn't it then reinforcing the binary? To pretend otherwise is naive, in my opinion. Some people won't find that a problem. That's cool. But others will. And if they do not feel comfortable being described as MoC, does that limit their presence in the community if the term gains currency?

the pdf i linked to from brown boi talks a bit about why they choose specifically to focus on masculinity as a characteristic (because masculine id'ed folks of color face specific challenges that they feel need to be addressed and they work to address that). i am guessing that might give more context to why b. cole chooses to specifically use the word masculine.

to be honest, i am not going to lose any sleep over the fear of white butches being "limited" if the term gains currency. i don't think poc queer culture or our language is in any way a threat to the mainstream white queer culture.

edited to add - from the pdf -

We believe that the policing of masculinity is literally killing us. It drives boys of color to violence
as a means of securing power and manhood. Its
historical root though goes much deeper. The
control of people of color for many centuries has
been possible through the regulation of gender—especially the control of women’s bodies.
From massacres of Native American women to
prevent future generations,
to sterilization of one-third of all Puerto Rican women of child
rearing age, limiting the movement of Asian
immigrant women to join their families,
and the countless forms of violence Black women
endured during slavery—controlling women has
been a profoundly effective tool in controlling all
of us. These efforts while historical in nature are
directly tied to current repeated assaults on bodies of women of color around their reproductive
health and wellbeing. Part of our organizational
purpose as is to leverage our masculinity to make
a positive contribution to interrupt this cycle.

By controlling femininity in negative ways, society has
been able to consolidate power and wealth in the hands
of those with privilege around gender and race. It also
unearths the truth about how we perceive women with in
this society, the deepest embodiment of femininity. Thus
the greatest threat to masculinity is to strip it of power,
to feminize it. This is the root of homophobia.
19
Reversing
this tide is essential if our communities are going to
thrive. We understand deeply how our masculine privilege can become a wedge in our communities—pitting
racial justice ﬁghts against gender justice. Yet we have
been able to bridge these efforts in a way that strengthens boys of color, giving them access to masculinity
without shame or negativity. Our core ethos is to let
your ﬁrst act of resistance be one of self-love; and your
second accountability for your privilege. We have built a
model that allows for both.

We work for Gender Justice by re-envisioning the power imbalance between traditional
notions of masculinity and femininity. We hold institutional systems, other masculine people,
and ourselves accountable for masculine privilege. Our work draws on a gender inclusive
framework that shapes non-oppressive masculinity rooted in honor, community, and collaboration with feminine identiﬁed people, especially women and girls.

Martina

01-17-2013, 08:16 PM

to be honest, i am not going to lose any sleep over the fear of white butches being "limited" if the term gains currency. i don't think poc queer culture or our language is in any way a threat to the mainstream white queer culture.

I wasn't thinking of white butches. I didn't say white. You did.

I think a LOT of African American butches of my generation wouldn't resonate at all.

Re your last sentence I am not defending white queer culture. Wow. That's a leap.

Corkey

01-17-2013, 08:21 PM

well, the term was coined by a butch woman. so...? i guess it is inclusive of butch women who identify with it and some butch women do not identify with it? because many butch women of color do id as masculine of center, i don't think the term is meant to be exclusive of butch women.

the pdf i linked to from brown boi talks a bit about why they choose specifically to focus on masculinity as a characteristic (because masculine id'ed folks of color face specific challenges that they feel need to be addressed and they work to address that). i am guessing that might give more context to why b. cole chooses to specifically use the word masculine.

to be honest, i am not going to lose any sleep over the fear of white butches being "limited" if the term gains currency. i don't think poc queer culture or our language is in any way a threat to the mainstream white queer culture.

I don't think anyone is threatened, except by a term that is trying to include identities that some do not want to be used to describe who they are. Like I said I have no problem with anyone claiming MoC for themselves, it's the inclusion of people who do not wish to be included that is the issue. I wish I could talk to b. Cole to understand this better.

aishah

01-17-2013, 08:21 PM

I wasn't thinking of white butches. I didn't say white. You did.

I think a LOT of African American butches of my generation wouldn't resonate at all.

Re your last sentence I am not defending white queer culture. Wow. That's a leap.

i can't speak to that, since the only butch folks i've seen argue against the term masculine of center have been white. when i see a large number of folks of color start speaking out against the term masculine of center and say that they feel marginalized by younger folks of color, then i will be concerned by that. nevertheless that's a discussion that is internal to the poc community, and white folks leveraging the experiences of older butches of color to support their arguments is in my opinion not appropriate.

Martina

01-17-2013, 08:25 PM

i can't speak to that, since the only butch folks i've seen argue against the term masculine of center have been white. when i see a large number of folks of color start speaking out against the term masculine of center and say that they feel marginalized by younger folks of color, then i will be concerned by that. nevertheless that's a discussion that is internal to the poc community, and white folks leveraging the experiences of older butches of color to support their arguments is in my opinion not appropriate.

How likely do you think these women are to even be at a venue where you'd have the discussion? And how likely will they be if they are by definition excluded?

Even the use of the term "boy" in that quote excludes quite a few people.

"Leveraging" -- I am not using anyone's experience. I haven't cited a single person. I have speculated.
Good god.

I was making a point about gender. I get to do that. That the author of that piece quoted in the race thread and perhaps you too think that because this term comes from the organizing of progressive PoC, it gets to go unexamined -- wishful thinking.

Corkey

01-17-2013, 08:29 PM

aishah

01-17-2013, 08:30 PM

How likely do you think these women are to even be at a venue where you'd have the discussion? And how likely will they be if they are by definition excluded?

Even the use of the term "boy" in that quote excludes quite a few people.

"Leveraging" -- I am not using anyone's experience. I haven't cited a single person. I have speculated. Good god.

well, considering that i'm pretty involved in various intergenerational lesbian and queer spaces for poc and indigenous folks, i have the feeling i wouldn't be completely oblivious. it's always a possibility, though.

from my experiences with bbp, i have the feeling that if any older butches of color brought these concerns to them, or had any advice for how to improve their work with young people of color, they would be very receptive to listening.

aishah

01-17-2013, 08:31 PM

Butch is not a descriptor of color, Transmen is not a descriptor of color, Boi is not, Boy is not. So when did it become ok to include people into a descriptor that does not pertain to them? Are they masculine, yes, but so is female. See the problem? The words Masculine of Center has no racial connotation.

the term "masculine of center" was coined by a black butch who runs an organization for masculine folks of color, and it is only widely used in poc communities. personally, i don't find it a shock that the backlash against it has mainly come from white people. its adoption in butch voices and other spaces, from my understanding, has partly been an attempt to widen its use as an umbrella term and partly an attempt (although one people think is bad?) to be more inclusive.

aishah

01-17-2013, 08:36 PM

I was making a point about gender. I get to do that. That the author of that piece quoted in the race thread and perhaps you too think that because this term comes from the organizing of progressive PoC, it gets to go unexamined -- wishful thinking.

you get to make points about gender. i get to make points about race. i have not let anything go unexamined, but thanks for accusing me of not being able to think critically about issues related to an issue in my own community. i have never in any discussion i've participated in on bfp tried to get out of thinking critically about anything. i might be wrong and fuck up but i do not let anything go unexamined. i'm really insulted that you are accusing me of that.

Corkey

01-17-2013, 08:37 PM

Martina

01-17-2013, 08:38 PM

well, considering that i'm pretty involved in various intergenerational lesbian and queer spaces for poc and indigenous folks, i have the feeling i wouldn't be completely oblivious. it's always a possibility, though.

from my experiences with bbp, i have the feeling that if any older butches of color brought these concerns to them, or had any advice for how to improve their work with young people of color, they would be very receptive to listening.

I have no idea what BBP is. This could be as you say. I can't say that it's not true. But I do think that the objections to the term are re the gender politics. The writer of the article in the race thread did not imply otherwise. He simply suggested backing down off one's privileged horse and allowing others to get the opportunity to name for once.

Not an argument that resonates for me when the gender politics are so fucked up. SO FUCKED UP.

aishah

01-17-2013, 08:40 PM

That does not make it inclusive if the people they are trying to include do not accept the term for themselves. I know that a PoC coined the term, it doesn't make it so for the ones who it pro ports to include if they do not feel it pertains to them. Make since?

from butch voices:

"We are woman-identified Butches. We are trans-masculine Studs. We are faggot-identified Aggressives. We are noun Butches, adjective Studs and pronoun-shunning Aggressives. We are she, he, hy, ze, zie and hir. We are you, and we are me. The point is, we don’t decide who is Butch, Stud or Aggressive. You get to decide for yourself."

Martina

01-17-2013, 08:41 PM

you get to make points about gender. i get to make points about race. i have not let anything go unexamined, but thanks for accusing me of not being able to think critically about issues related to an issue in my own community. i have never in any discussion i've participated in on bfp tried to get out of thinking critically about anything. i might be wrong and fuck up but i do not let anything go unexamined. i'm really insulted that you are accusing me of that.

Read what I said. I said -- or meant to say -- that anyone who expects others -- the world -- to not examine the term, take it apart, look at it, see if it works -- just because it came out of a progressive movement of PoC is engaging in some wishful thinking.

Martina

01-17-2013, 08:41 PM

from butch voices:

"We are woman-identified Butches. We are trans-masculine Studs. We are faggot-identified Aggressives. We are noun Butches, adjective Studs and pronoun-shunning Aggressives. We are she, he, hy, ze, zie and hir. We are you, and we are me. The point is, we don’t decide who is Butch, Stud or Aggressive. You get to decide for yourself."

It doesn't matter what you say UNDER the term. The point is the term. That's what is going to be used. It's beyond naive not to get that.

aishah

01-17-2013, 08:42 PM

I have no idea what BBP is. This could be as you say. I can't say that it's not true. But I do think that the objections to the term are re the gender politics. The writer of the article in the race thread did not imply otherwise. He simply suggested backing down off one's privileged horse and allowing others to get the opportunity to name for once.

Not an argument that resonates for me when the gender politics are so fucked up. SO FUCKED UP.

http://brownboiproject.org/ - the person who coined "masculine of center" is the founder of brown boi project and is on the advisory board of butch voices.

i'd be interested to actually see refutations of the way brown boi project understands and discusses masculinity/"masculine of center" rather than general statements that the gender politics of "masculine of center" and "feminine of center" are fucked up.

also generalization that the gender politics are "so fucked up" - so are all of us who use these terms just wrong about gender? i mean? that is kind of overreaching.

Corkey

01-17-2013, 08:43 PM

from butch voices:

"We are woman-identified Butches. We are trans-masculine Studs. We are faggot-identified Aggressives. We are noun Butches, adjective Studs and pronoun-shunning Aggressives. We are she, he, hy, ze, zie and hir. We are you, and we are me. The point is, we don’t decide who is Butch, Stud or Aggressive. You get to decide for yourself."

And I say YEY! It does not say we are only PoC and only PoC can use these identities.

aishah

01-17-2013, 08:44 PM

Read what I said. I said -- or meant to say -- that anyone who expects others -- the world -- to not examine the term, take it apart, look at it, see if it works -- just because it came out of a progressive movement of PoC is engaging in some wishful thinking.

OH MY EFFING GOD.

martina, i have NOT SAID ONCE that people should not examine the term or take it apart.

i HAVE tried to introduce context for how the term came about and how and why it is used.

my point is trying to have an abstract discussion about a term that is not rooted in its history and context is hella fucked up. pretty much all the posts in this thread are against the term being used. few have bothered to acknowledge where the term came from, why it came about in the first place, or bothered to try to understand why other people might find it useful. ZERO context whatsoever.

oh, and i did read what you said. you out and out said that i am arguing against examining something critically JUST because it came out of progressive poc community. that is DISGUSTING and minimizing and if anyone here thinks that about me then clearly y'all don't know me all that well.

JustBeingMe

01-17-2013, 08:44 PM

the term "masculine of center" was coined by a black butch who runs an organization for masculine folks of color, and it is only widely used in poc communities. its adoption in butch voices and other spaces, from my understanding, has partly been an attempt to widen its use as an umbrella term and partly an attempt (although one people think is bad?) to be more inclusive.

Lets see if this makes any sense to anyone.
I met a new "friend" whom is a person of colour and we talked a bit about why she used the term "stud" to describe how she ID'd and why I use the term butch and I am white. She told me that the term "butch" to her felt like it was derogatory term and that is why she called herself a stud instead. That her upbringing and how she was part of a community that is of colour, the term became coined. Well that is just that, her pov and perspective. Mine, however is different. I am "butch" not a stud, it's the word "DYKE" that I feel is a derogatory term to me personally because that is how it has been used against me by straights. I can see how the term butch can be used by straights to mean you want to be a man in the relationship to folks that don't get our dynamic.
I can see how people of colour feel erased, just like any other ID in our community can and often does feel at times erased themselves. I have felt erased because I am not only butch but I am a lesbian on top of that term. And on top of those terms I am a female /woman.(eta And I am female but masculine as well).
Basically what I am seeing in the articles I perused through is they feel possibly erased and need to feel included and for them, the terms that are already out there, don't describe them as a whole, or us as a whole community and that's what they wish to do.
I personally wouldn't use the term myself, and I don't want anyone else to use it for me to describe me either.
But, I kinda can get something from this. I am not sure what Center means maybe it's just a jumping off point to start a new revolution from the old to the new. I don't know.
But I wish to say I have no problems or issues with how anyone wants to call themselves, just don't push it off on me too and erase who I am. Period.
Maybe we should not just discuss this use of term, but email the woman who coined it and ask her for her thoughts on what the center is exactly? and why she chose Masculine of Center and not Feminine of Center?? or Some other term in our spectrum of ID's.

PS. Where's Bulldog on this issue ??? I can't wait to read her point of view on this.

Boots13

01-17-2013, 08:54 PM

So, in my rep to aishah I stated that I had NO idea that MoC was coined by a butch POC. And yet my reluctance to accept the term MoC was centrifugal to CENTER and fbecause of bias I've been subjected to or seen, Center has WHITE MALE PRIVILEGE connotations...

In mainstream, center is white. Center is patriarchal. Center is biased, Center is privilege...and that is why I have a hard time with MoCenter...I dont want to perpetuate the privilege...but then in my discussion last night I was politely and diplomatically informed that MASCULINE HAS PRIVILEGE...that my presentation as masculine perpetuates privilege in certain arenas...

I am sorry that its getting heated and defensive/aggressive in our discussions, but I think its worthy, necessary and highly educational to have them...at least it is for me...

Martina

01-17-2013, 08:59 PM

oh, and i did read what you said. you out and out said that i am arguing against examining something critically JUST because it came out of progressive poc community. that is DISGUSTING and minimizing and if anyone here thinks that about me then clearly y'all don't know me all that well.

You said that you wouldn't lose much sleep if some folks felt excluded. That is opting out of the discussion. The author of the article quoted in the race thread used the argument that because of the provenance of the term -- progressive PoC -- it should not be opposed. He said things like we spend too much time fighting amongst ourselves and said that the reason that some folks are upset is the lost privilege of naming (could be true). He also had this poetic final paragraph encouraging people to just ACCEPT it.

No. The gender politics are objectionable. Provenance is not all. Sorry.

Martina

01-17-2013, 09:01 PM

also generalization that the gender politics are "so fucked up" - so are all of us who use these terms just wrong about gender? i mean? that is kind of overreaching.

If you use them about yourselves, no. If you argue for it as an umbrella term, then yes, fucked up -- on this issue.

JustBeingMe

01-17-2013, 09:02 PM

Just to clarify something I said in my post above. I wasn't saying don't discuss it. I do think it needs to have some clarity added to it and see how others feel about it. I just hope it doesn't get that heated in here with pov's being stated or anything else. I was also saying it wouldn't hurt to have more clarity from the person that actually coined the term MoC., that's all.

julieisafemme

01-17-2013, 09:06 PM

I have to agree with Aishah on this and say that it is upsetting to me to see people divorce the meaning of the word from its origins. I was at the BV conference and knew of The Brown Boi Project (BBP)before the conference ever happened. Brown Boi is an amazing organization doing incredible work all over the country. They work in men's prisons, they work with women and children, they work with all men and women of color who identify with masculinity. They have a cohort program that mentors young masculine women and men to take on an active role in their communities working for gender justice.

Cole, the founder of BBP, is inspiring and I admire her. Every time we have attended an event for BBP we have felt embraced, welcomed and loved.

I understand that the term MoC is not something everyone resonates with. That is ok! As Aishah said don't use it! I just wish people would look beyond the term to to the woman who coined it and the good work she does. I don't see how anyone could disagree with that!

aishah

01-17-2013, 09:08 PM

You said that you wouldn't lose much sleep if some folks felt excluded. That is opting out of the discussion. The author of the article quoted in the race thread used the argument that because of the provenance of the term -- progressive PoC -- it should not be opposed. He said things like we spend too much time fighting amongst ourselves and said that the reason that some folks are upset is the lost privilege of naming (could be true). He also had this poetic final paragraph encouraging people to just ACCEPT it.

No. The gender politics are objectionable. Provenance is not all. Sorry.

one function of white privilege is getting to have a contextless, supposedly ahistorical, abstract discussion dominated by white folks about the gender politics of a term central to the poc community. i don't agree with everything in that article, but i do agree with that. this thread is proof of it.

and i still haven't seen any discussion of the gender politics that actually takes into context how b. cole and bbp define and understand the "masculine" part of "masculine-of-center." i'd like to see someone actually argue with how masculine is understood in that term rather than just claiming it is fucked up.

nowandthen

01-17-2013, 09:10 PM

I posted in the red zone a post of a friend, I did so in my on going effort to talk about whiteness,not BV or the history of the term MoC. The post for me help me see more ways I need to self-reflect. Then this thread pop up, so I want to be in it since it is my lived and life's work.

I find it interesting that the term masculinity or masculine are not exposed for also being part of the language of the western medical system. I am asked all the time what pronoun I use, I now answer the question this way, "why don;t you pick one because it is not about how I see me it is how you see me" meaning I am guilty as well of categorization, butch's do this, men do that, etc. we live in a world that needs difference to place a value on something, race,gender and sex are no different. I am learning to unlearn everything I thought was truth. It is hard and ideas and beliefs die hard as well in me. That said, I support and respect those who like gender roles as they define them no one needs my approval.

I think I used the term masculinity for lack of language to name myself. The markers that have come to be known as masculine are just that markers to police that others, social and political enforce, starting with our birth certificate. Masculinity is a made up category made by a structural system to exclude more than include. Patriarchy and its need for misogyny , specifically white patriarchy has made its self center. So, I like many used the language available to me to name myself. The history we are taught comes from and through White supremacy and that is always where I find the conversation struggles the most about gender representation. The is no universal narrative, no history that is the same in relation to race,gender,sex, and nation. I find the limitations of language is also born from this same genealogy.

I come to this like most of us from a very personnel place, often my first response to someones visibility is my fear of invisibility. The Medical Industrial complex has reduce the human experience to two kinds, Female and male. That is the truth, I did not make it up but I work to destroy it. I had many years of reparative therapy as a child, I had many lesbians shame me for not being what the named to be a dyke, I have white privilege, First Nation status, I am mostly able-bodied with a few ouch here and there. What I do not have is a mental illness and all the gender language we use stems from that, what is normal and deviant, what can be measured can be controlled and changed.

Race is always in the conversation because it is, the material conditions of difference have real human cost. Gender is also always a factor, if you ask me how I see myself, again I always say white why, because it matters race is not about the other[I] it is about self first. Anyway, I must walk the dog chow for now

julieisafemme

01-17-2013, 09:10 PM

Martina

01-17-2013, 09:12 PM

one function of white privilege is getting to have a contextless, supposedly ahistorical, abstract discussion dominated by white folks about the gender politics of a term central to the poc community. i don't agree with everything in that article, but i do agree with that. this thread is proof of it.

The term is not intended to be used only by the PoC community. Is it?

I disagree with Julie too.

If the term gains currency, will anyone KNOW who created it? Where it came from?

No. They will know that masculinity is the defining characteristic of the people included. They will know that lots and lots of people believe there is a center and all that implies. They will know that. And that's all.

The term promotes binary thinking. It valorizes masculinity as the quality without which there is no ID, no community, no solidarity. The thing that defines and unites.

Corkey

01-17-2013, 09:14 PM

aishah

01-17-2013, 09:17 PM

OFFS. Look if the term is to include Butch, Transmen Boy and Boi, then those who are said identity do have a say as to the use as it pertains TO them. White or not, MoC does not make that distinction in its term. If they want to be inclusive then BE inclusive and stop with the nastiness. I'm out one almost white guy down.

who has been nasty and uninclusive? i see a lot of freaking out about people who use moc being mean and uninclusive, but i haven't actually seen any evidence of people using moc being mean and uninclusive. the term is meant to describe people WHO IDENTIFY WITH IT. that is why it is often used TOGETHER with words like butch, stud, aggressive, boi, trans, etc.

Toughy

01-17-2013, 09:20 PM

I went through a huge learning curve about this term in a 3 day time frame at the BV conference. There is a thread on this site that goes through that entire episode. Find it if you want to see how it went and you will get to see my process in it. I did suggest BV tweak the verbiage a bit so the white butch folk would calm down. There was a lot of un-examined racism on the part of many involved.

The term MoC, like the term Stud comes from communities of color. If white folk 'feel it' then good. If white folk don't feel it, then don't claim it. If you only spend time in white non-academic culture you most likely will not ever hear MoC or Stud. I have seen huge amounts of outrage from white folk over calling a butch a stud.

Communities and conferences get to define themselves as they see fit and sometimes it's damn hard when white folk are not in charge of how that definition comes about.

I'm done......this brings up painful stuff for me...didn't know I had not resolved all of it.....that was a damn hard painful weekend and at the same time one of the most uplifting experiences I ever had.

julieisafemme

01-17-2013, 09:25 PM

The term is not intended to be used only by the PoC community. Is it?

I disagree with Julie too.

If the term gains currency, will anyone KNOW who created it? Where it came from?

No. They will know that masculinity is the defining characteristic of the people included. They will know that lots and lots of people believe there is a center and all that implies. They will know that. And that's all.

The term promotes binary thinking. It valorizes masculinity as the quality without which there is no ID, no community, no solidarity. The thing that defines and unites.

It was created for and by communities of color. And yes of course masculinity is the defining characteristic of those included! That is the point! BUT the term is the antithesis of binary thinking. Masculinity is not male. It can be claimed by any gender. The world we live in, our culture gives privilege to masculinity no matter what gender claims it. Since that is the reality those who are given that privilege must examine it and take responsibility for it.

People appropriate any number of terms and identities that they know nothing about, have not lived and have no business owning. Not much we can do about that. MoC serves a purpose in the communities of color where it was born. What is wrong with that?

Dude

01-17-2013, 09:26 PM

i don't find it a shock that the backlash against it has mainly come from white people. its adoption in butch voices and other spaces, from my understanding, (although one people think is bad?) to be more inclusive.

Quite frankly ,
this has nothing to do with color and I'm baffled by you going there over
and over again , with your posts.
Maybe the backlash is coming from old butches of all colors instead?
I would also not go to a boi / boy gathering either unless I was looking for one.

it does not feel inclusive
to this old white butch
nope

back in my day , we didnt have groups
and we managed to get along , just fine!
eh, something to ponder

edits to add
zero problems with being called stud

Boots13

01-17-2013, 09:28 PM

I went through a huge learning curve about this term in a 3 day time frame at the BV conference. There is a thread on this site that goes through that entire episode. Find it if you want to see how it went and you will get to see my process in it. I did suggest BV tweak the verbiage a bit so the white butch folk would calm down. There was a lot of un-examined racism on the part of many involved.

The term MoC, like the term Stud comes from communities of color. If white folk 'feel it' then good. If white folk don't feel it, then don't claim it. If you only spend time in white non-academic culture you most likely will not ever hear MoC or Stud. I have seen huge amounts of outrage from white folk over calling a butch a stud.

Thanks for posting Toughy. For me its not about claiming this, actually my reaction is to NOT stake any claim... but for me, its about trying to understand this.
Just when I think I "get it" a new term is introduced and it shakes the underpinnings of my "comfort zone" ...and thats a GOOD thing.

I will look for the thread.

julieisafemme

01-17-2013, 09:30 PM

Quite frankly ,
this has nothing to do with color and I'm baffled by you going there over
and over again , with your posts.
Maybe the backlash is coming from old butches of all colors instead?
I would also not go to a boi / boy gathering either unless I was looking for one.

it does not feel inclusive
to this old white butch
nope

back in my day , we didnt have groups
and we managed to get along , just fine!
eh, something to ponder

Sorry Dude but being at the conference and other events made it clear that this does have a whole lot to do with color. That is my personal experience.

aishah

01-17-2013, 09:31 PM

Quite frankly ,
this has nothing to do with color and I'm baffled by you going there over
and over again , with your posts.
Maybe the backlash is coming from old butches of all colors instead?
I would also not go to a boi / boy gathering either unless I was looking for one.

it does not feel inclusive
to this old white butch
nope

back in my day , we didnt have groups
and we managed to get along , just fine!
eh, something to ponder

mainstream butch spaces are inclusive of white butches. mainstream butch spaces are not, by default, inclusive of butches of color. most qpoc i know don't automatically assume we are welcomed in mainstream queer spaces...because we aren't. that is why it is important to be intentionally inclusive.

Martina

01-17-2013, 09:32 PM

It was created for and by communities of color.

The definition doesn't say that

Masculine of center (MoC), which, in its evolving definition, recognizes the cultural breadth and depth of identity for lesbian/queer womyn and gender nonconforming/trans people who tilt toward the masculine side of the gender spectrum including a wide range of identities such as butch, stud, aggressive/AG, macha, dom, trans masculine, boi, etc. (B. Cole, 2008)

Greyson

01-17-2013, 09:33 PM

OH MY EFFING GOD.

martina, i have NOT SAID ONCE that people should not examine the term or take it apart.

i HAVE tried to introduce context for how the term came about and how and why it is used.

my point is trying to have an abstract discussion about a term that is not rooted in its history and context is hella fucked up. pretty much all the posts in this thread are against the term being used. few have bothered to acknowledge where the term came from, why it came about in the first place, or bothered to try to understand why other people might find it useful. ZERO context whatsoever.

oh, and i did read what you said. you out and out said that i am arguing against examining something critically JUST because it came out of progressive poc community. that is DISGUSTING and minimizing and if anyone here thinks that about me then clearly y'all don't know me all that well.

Aishah, I am glad to see you posting a bit more again. What I am going to say may offend you, I hope not. Many people here from this site were at the first BV conference here in the SF Bay Area. Some of the people that are founders of BV and/or Board Members are members from this site and/or the old DASH site. Brown Bois is not BV but Brown Bois and BV do have members/participants active in both groups. Here on this site when BV first started to use this term MOC there was much discussion on this site. Maybe someone who has the technical savy will provide the link for you.

I am an older POC Butch and I am not fond of the MOC for my own identity. I came out and of age in the early 70s primarily in a B-F POC community in Los Angeles. There were many of us that used the term Butch for our self identity. It was not a popular or venerated label/identity back then with white lesbians. Mind you, this is my experience. We do have female identified butches here that have another experience.

I have had brief communication with Cole about MOC and she knows how I feel about the term MOC. Cole is younger then me and said this is how it was for her growing up in Oakland. POC not being comfortable with the term Butch.

What I don't understand is I see many people claiming the right to ID as they desire but yet when they see someone that may not see the identity of Butch as they do for themselves, all of a sudden it is not okay to "self identity." ( I am not inferring this is your bias.)

Martina

01-17-2013, 09:34 PM

And yes of course masculinity is the defining characteristic of those included!

Why is that an of course?

nowandthen

01-17-2013, 09:36 PM

Yes race matters, no MoC is not only for non-white folks, though it finds its roots in communities of color. I am not saying anyone needs to accept me or how I name myself that is the point. Therefore I ask's everyone I meet to self identify, yes it is a lot of work, but resisting my several forms of privilege is work, hard work, painful work, healing work. So I will keep saying it Race matters in everything and it is not the job of POC to talk about it, it is mine as I am raced too. I wrote this this morning on my FB Page

The construction of the "White Anti-racist" in a "Post-Racial" World is still about white folks looking outside themselves to solve their internal bias's about race. It is a form of White speak (double speak for it is still about us). Racism is not a issue over there or in some other person it is inside us. The work and invitation is to work on ourselves first, not point out the obvious. Healing and change start at home, in our own hearts and minds, then we might have a better chance of dismantling both internal and structural racism. Stay Blessed
I can not separate out race and gender as they are linked in the material world and have consequences good and bad.

Here is a link to my blog where I ask other white folks to engage in conversations about what it means to be white. http://twistedqueer.wordpress.com/

The hardest thing I had to realize is that How others see me matters in how they response to my Body, not my heart, In the world I am seen in almost 80% of my life as White and male, not Butch and masculine. Painful as that truth is. That Truth was not made by me, it is a structural system that I live in queer or not.
Race and gender create for me white male privilege, and as a white masculine queer feminist raised in queer community since I was 18 that is painful to see and accept, not from a place of guilt or shame but from a place of awakening and healing.

aishah

01-17-2013, 09:38 PM

Aishah, I am glad to see you posting a bit more again. What I am going to say may offend you, I hope not. Many people here from this site were at the first BV conference here in the SF Bay Area. Some of the people that are founders of BV and/or Board Members are members from this site and/or the old DASH site. Brown Bois is not BV but Brown Bois and BV do have members/participants active in both groups. Here on this site when BV first started to use this term MOC there was much discussion on this site. Maybe someone who has the technical savy will provide the link for you.

I am an older POC Butch and I am not fond of the MOC for my own identity. I came out and of age in the early 70s primarily in a B-F POC community in Los Angeles. There were many of us that used the term Butch for our self identity. It was not a popular or venerated label/identity back then with white lesbians. Mind you, this is my experience. We do have female identified butches here that have another experience.

I have had brief communication with Cole about MOC and she knows how I feel about the term MOC. Cole is younger then me and said this is how it was for her growing up in Oakland. POC not being comfortable with the term Butch.

What I don't understand is I see many people claiming the right to ID as they desire but yet when they see someone that may not see the identity of Butch as they do for themselves, all of a sudden it is not okay to "self identity." ( I am not inferring this is your bias.)

thanks for your input, greyson...it definitely helped me understand more about the history. i am not that familiar with the history of butch voices but am with bbp.

one thing that has occurred to me is that i wonder if anyone has ever brought up the fact that the "butch" in "butch voices" could be excluding a lot of people who don't feel that the term butch includes them because they've been pushed out of butch spaces for being poc?

which leads me back to the issue of - everyone's going to find something to hate about every term. (the generational issues with masculine-of-center make me think a lot of the generational issues with the terms queer and dyke.)

i am wondering - you brought up people being biased about who gets to self-identify and when. i have not personally ever seen anyone who uses the term "masculine-of-center" pushing it on others or disagreeing with others' self-identities. i do know that bbp's way of understanding/constructing masculinity is probably not something everyone agrees with. but i have never seen them say that people cannot do it in other ways...?

Martina

01-17-2013, 09:41 PM

This might explain it better. It is from the BBP website.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=FpZ-tv5TsjM&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DFpZ-tv5TsjM

A lot of crafty stuff popped up.

nowandthen

01-17-2013, 09:41 PM

[QUOTE=julieisafemme;732361]I have to agree with Aishah on this and say that it is upsetting to me to see people divorce the meaning of the word from its origins [/QUOTE
THe origins of the word come from the medical field and is about naming difference that needs correction, yes we have reclaimed it, but is roots lie in Mental Illness as the place to define, mark and correct that which the center has named "normal"

julieisafemme

01-17-2013, 09:43 PM

A lot of crafty stuff popped up.

Aaack! I am on an iPad and I can't figure out how to paste! So sorry! I will fire up the pc!

Dude

01-17-2013, 09:47 PM

Sorry Dude but being at the conference and other events made it clear that this does have a whole lot to do with color. That is my personal experience.

well that is fucked up

I'm glad I had no desire to go

thank you for not talking down you nose at me

like I should have known thats what went down there

julieisafemme

01-17-2013, 09:49 PM

Martina

01-17-2013, 09:50 PM

One context at BV was the fact that organizationally, many butch women felt that they were being excluded. I don't know the petty politics. But there was a shift in power among various groups, with women-ID'd folk perceiving a loss. Who knows? But that is part of the context of the original response.

In my OP, I tried to point out that I don't care really. The fact is the term, if it flies, will fly on its own, will take on its own life. I really don't know how that can be argued with. That's how language works. That's how politics work. There is little memory of history or context re things like this.

Requoting Halberstam for a separate good point

Halberstam: I think it presumes a center, I’m not sure about that. It presumes a scale that we all know and recognize. I don’t always know that I know what another queer person’s masculinity means anymore. I used to think I knew, but I realized I didn’t. For a lot of young masculine female bodied people who decide to transition, they’re doing so not because they’re so invested in masculinity but because they’re invested in forms of maleness that are then going to be in relation to other forms of maleness. They want to be gay men! In that scenario, masculinity isn’t the most important vector for them, it’s male embodiment or perceived male embodiment. My orientation is very much to feminine women, so butch still seems to have some sort of signifying power, given my set of desires and orientations. But masculine of center presumes that there’s an ideal, and that ideal presumes all kinds of things about race and class, and that we all know an ideal form when we see it. I can’t get into that kind of normative classification system that has a center and has margins. It’s a kind of colonial way of thinking about things, that there is a center and there are margins, and everyone’s aspiring to be center.

Here's a case where masculinity isn't to be foregrounded. Once they have been perceived as male, masculinity is an individual issue almost.

Whatever the context among activists, the term is carrying baggage.

There is also an arrogance among activists that everyone will know and understand their work, that people will retain their history, will be able to detect their intentions. Would that were so.

julieisafemme

01-17-2013, 09:51 PM

well that is fucked up

I'm glad I had no desire to go

thank you for not talking down you nose at me

like I should have known thats what went down there

I am so sorry you felt that was fucked up. You stated quite clearly that this conversation had nothing to do with color and that is not my experience. I did not mean to offend you.

As far as the conference goes I am not understanding what you mean by "that s what went down there?"

Greyson

01-17-2013, 09:53 PM

thanks for your input, greyson...it definitely helped me understand more about the history. i am not that familiar with the history of butch voices but am with bbp.

one thing that has occurred to me is that i wonder if anyone has ever brought up the fact that the "butch" in "butch voices" could be excluding a lot of people who don't feel that the term butch includes them because they've been pushed out of butch spaces for being poc?

which leads me back to the issue of - everyone's going to find something to hate about every term. (the generational issues with masculine-of-center make me think a lot of the generational issues with the terms queer and dyke.)

i am wondering - you brought up people being biased about who gets to self-identify and when. i have not personally ever seen anyone who uses the term "masculine-of-center" pushing it on others or disagreeing with others' self-identities. i do know that bbp's way of understanding/constructing masculinity is probably not something everyone agrees with. but i have never seen them say that people cannot do it in other ways...?

Aishah, I'm sorry. My post was not clear. I was referring to "Butches" that monitor, the use of the label Butch. I have never felt pushed by people using the label MOC that it is a "must." It did sadden me to learn there are younger POC Butches, Studs, Aggressives that are unaware that there were older POC during the years immediatley following Stonewall that did ID as Butch and were proud of it. There were also many Lesbians that now ID as Butch that would not claim Butch back in the day.

I strongly believe it is up to the individual to ID themselves as they choose, and sometimes their ID is something they grow into.

julieisafemme

01-17-2013, 09:58 PM

Why is that an of course?

Ok!! On a pc now!

From BBP's website

"Mission

The Brown Boi Project is a community of masculine of center womyn, men, two-spirit people, transmen, and our allies committed to transforming our privilege of masculinity, gender, and race into tools for achieving Racial and Gender Justice.

Masculine of center (MoC), which, in its evolving definition, recognizes the cultural breadth and depth of identity for lesbian/queer womyn and gender nonconforming/trans people who tilt toward the masculine side of the gender spectrum�including a wide range of identities such as butch, stud, aggressive/AG, macha, dom, trans masculine, boi, etc. (B. Cole, 2008)

Core Values

We work for Gender Justice by re-envisioning the power imbalance between traditional notions of masculinity and femininity. We hold institutional systems, other masculine people, and ourselves accountable for its accompanying privileges. We draw on a gender inclusive framework that shapes non-oppressive masculinity rooted in honor, community, and empowerment of feminine identified people, especially women and girls.

We value Justice: We are a broad, diverse community of activists, philanthropists, rebels, and leaders who are driven by a commitment to racial justice, gender justice, and transforming our privilege of masculinity into a tool for social change. We prioritize support that improves the lives of masculine of center womyn; queer and trans people, and people of color - work that transforms the lives of women and girls and introduces new alliances and tools for challenging racism, sexism, homophobia, and transphobia across our communities.

We value critical inquiry: We recognize that building community requires time, effort and sacrifice. We see questions as essential to growth, renewal, and the overturning of ideas that harm our communities. We support innovative organizations that provide places to share and grow collectively and individually, those that align social justice movements and open new dialogues at the margins.

We value tenacity: We are bold, daring, fearless, and steadfast in challenging assumptions and conventions in ways that resonate and connect with grassroots communities of color. We think critically and strategically in search of the best answers and approaches. We live at the intersections, transgressing boundaries and bringing about new dialogues.

We value innovation: We approach our work with optimism, think boldly, and see new ideas as opportunities for transformation, forward growth, and social change."

aishah

01-17-2013, 10:03 PM

One context at BV was the fact that organizationally, many butch women felt that they were being excluded. I don't know the petty politics. But there was a shift in power among various groups, with women-ID'd folk perceiving a loss. Who knows? But that is part of the context of the original response.

In my OP, I tried to point out that I don't care really. The fact is the term, if it flies, will fly on its own, will take on its own life. I really don't know how that can be argued with. That's how language works. That's how politics work. There is little memory of history or context re things like this.

Requoting Halberstam for a separate good point

Here's a case where masculinity isn't to be foregrounded. Once they have been perceived as male, masculinity is an individual issue almost.

Whatever the context among activists, the term is carrying baggage.

There is also an arrogance among activists that everyone will know and understand their work, that people will retain their history, will be able to detect their intentions. Would that were so.

i disagree re: history - mostly because i am hypersensitive to the issue of racism and lack of rootedness in context and experience - but i am grateful for the background and can see where the resistance due to centering male id'ed folks comes from. i think we have had that discussion here on the planet several times also (re: male id'ed butches being privileged over female id'ed butches).

i have to admit, i was surprised when you started challenging the term masculinity because in my experience most butches do id as masculine in some way or another (whether they identify as woman or not). the word masculinity is routinely used in the butch zone here to refer to both female and male id'ed butches. even small things here are characterized by notions of masculinity and femininity - the "what would you never do" thread, i remember a lot of butches stating they would never do things that are often labeled as feminine in our society (like wear heels, bake, etc.) and femmes said they would never do many things that are labeled masculine in our society.

i feel like it is a struggle to in some ways distance ourselves from traditional labels of "masculine" and "feminine" and in the same way still id as butch and femme (or whatever terms one chooses to use). i struggle with that myself. because those terms are usually assumed to go along with certain kinds of presentations that are decidedly masculine or feminine (though not necessarily being tied to being male or female). i also think it's possible for one person to embody both masculine and feminine qualities at the same time. but i thought that one of the positive gains that we have made in the last several years around gender was the understanding that one could be male or female (or any sex) and identify as masculine or feminine - that gender or presentation isn't tied to sex. i think it's possible for one person to be both masculine AND feminine. for me, femme is, as my friend leah says, femininity "blown up, turned inside out, and remixed."

i do get the resistance around male id'ed butches being centered, though. that at least makes the controversy make more sense to me.

Dude

01-17-2013, 10:05 PM

I am so sorry you felt that was fucked up. You stated quite clearly that this conversation had nothing to do with color and that is not my experience. I did not mean to offend you.

As far as the conference goes I am not understanding what you mean by "that s what went down there?"

I'm so sorry , I was not more clear with my words.

I appreciate you telling me what went down at the conference.

I had no idea that race played a divisive role in what was
'supposed" to be an all inclusive and supportive event.

that is fucked up , disappointing and news to me

nowandthen

01-17-2013, 10:07 PM

[quote=nowandthen;732403]

The word masculinity or center? I am not understanding here.

All labeling , butch, femme, masculinity, transsexual, etc. all find there roots in the medical industrial complex, a system of control
So for me in my unlearnig I have realized that all the language used must be defined by the person using the term, and some of it will be familiar so will not. But Butch is not a term born out of community, it is a term applied that we took back and claimed.

Ginger

01-17-2013, 10:12 PM

i feel like it is a struggle to in some ways distance ourselves from traditional labels of "masculine" and "feminine" and in the same way still id as butch and femme (or whatever terms one chooses to use). i struggle with that myself. because those terms are usually assumed to go along with certain kinds of presentations that are decidedly masculine or feminine (though not necessarily being tied to being male or female). i also think it's possible for one person to embody both masculine and feminine qualities at the same time. but i thought that one of the positive gains that we have made in the last several years around gender was the understanding that one could be male or female (or any sex) and identify as masculine or feminine - that gender or presentation isn't tied to sex. i think it's possible for one person to be both masculine AND feminine. for me, femme is, as my friend leah says, femininity "blown up, turned inside out, and remixed."

Your whole post resonated so much with me but I wanted to thank you in particular for this excerpt (I bolded one part that is such a good clear summary of an important point that helps people "get" the b/f identity).

julieisafemme

01-17-2013, 10:14 PM

I'm so sorry , I was not more clear with my words.

I appreciate you telling me what went down at the conference.

I had no idea that race played a divisive role in what was
'suppossed" to be an all inclusive and supportive event.

that is fucked up and dissapointing

Yes it was. I am not an academic and struggle to understand things sometimes. What happened at the conference for me is I could feel the racial tension and the tension between butches who identify with female or male pronouns. Sometimes it was so overwhelming I had to leave the room. It made me sick to stomach. It was not disappointing or fucked up though. I also felt love, acceptance, civility and an honest attempt by many to understand and repair the damage. I felt hopeful and I learned a LOT.

BBP ran an intergenerational panel workshop of butches/MoC. Greyson and Toughy were on the panel. The youngest participant was 16! It was absolutely transforming to me and I got to see Cole at work and saw how wonderfully she handled the stories and the really intense emotions that came up.

It may not have been for everyone. I enjoyed it and learned a lot.

julieisafemme

01-17-2013, 10:15 PM

[quote=julieisafemme;732408]

All labeling , butch, femme, masculinity, transsexual, etc. all find there roots in the medical industrial complex, a system of control
So for me in my unlearnig I have realized that all the language used must be defined by the person using the term, and some of it will be familiar so will not. But Butch is not a term born out of community, it is a term applied that we took back and claimed.

Thank you! I so appreciate learning the roots of words.

Martina

01-17-2013, 10:17 PM

i have to admit, i was surprised when you started challenging the term masculinity because in my experience most butches do id as masculine in some way or another (whether they identify as woman or not).

I think most butches DESCRIBE themselves -- or parts of themselves -- as masculine. That is not an ID. Not even close.

the word masculinity is routinely used in the butch zone here to refer to both female and male id'ed butches. even small things here are characterized by notions of masculinity and femininity - the "what would you never do" thread, i remember a lot of butches stating they would never do things that are often labeled as feminine in our society (like wear heels, bake, etc.) and femmes said they would never do many things that are labeled masculine in our society.

And that stuff is sometimes super sad. Usually it gets some reaction on this site.

i also think it's possible for one person to embody both masculine and feminine qualities at the same time. but i thought that one of the positive gains that we have made in the last several years around gender was the understanding that one could be male or female (or any sex) and identify as masculine or feminine - that gender or presentation isn't tied to sex.

I agree. And I agree with Julie that reclaiming and redefining masculinity is hugely worthwhile.

But making your UMBRELLA term an ID that puts masculinity first makes it about that in a way that it hasn't always been. It's never been incidental. But to put it first re-valorizes that already highly rewarded signifier. And in my opinion, it does it without any indication that it is being looked at from any angle other than a conventional one. You have to read the fine print to see that. And most people won't.

Martina

01-17-2013, 10:21 PM

One can do all that without creating an umbrella term with masculine a the defining characteristic.

Ok!! On a pc now!

From BBP's website

"Mission

The Brown Boi Project is a community of masculine of center womyn, men, two-spirit people, transmen, and our allies committed to transforming our privilege of masculinity, gender, and race into tools for achieving Racial and Gender Justice.

Masculine of center (MoC), which, in its evolving definition, recognizes the cultural breadth and depth of identity for lesbian/queer womyn and gender nonconforming/trans people who tilt toward the masculine side of the gender spectrum�including a wide range of identities such as butch, stud, aggressive/AG, macha, dom, trans masculine, boi, etc. (B. Cole, 2008)

Core Values

We work for Gender Justice by re-envisioning the power imbalance between traditional notions of masculinity and femininity. We hold institutional systems, other masculine people, and ourselves accountable for its accompanying privileges. We draw on a gender inclusive framework that shapes non-oppressive masculinity rooted in honor, community, and empowerment of feminine identified people, especially women and girls.

We value Justice: We are a broad, diverse community of activists, philanthropists, rebels, and leaders who are driven by a commitment to racial justice, gender justice, and transforming our privilege of masculinity into a tool for social change. We prioritize support that improves the lives of masculine of center womyn; queer and trans people, and people of color - work that transforms the lives of women and girls and introduces new alliances and tools for challenging racism, sexism, homophobia, and transphobia across our communities.

We value critical inquiry: We recognize that building community requires time, effort and sacrifice. We see questions as essential to growth, renewal, and the overturning of ideas that harm our communities. We support innovative organizations that provide places to share and grow collectively and individually, those that align social justice movements and open new dialogues at the margins.

We value tenacity: We are bold, daring, fearless, and steadfast in challenging assumptions and conventions in ways that resonate and connect with grassroots communities of color. We think critically and strategically in search of the best answers and approaches. We live at the intersections, transgressing boundaries and bringing about new dialogues.

We value innovation: We approach our work with optimism, think boldly, and see new ideas as opportunities for transformation, forward growth, and social change."

julieisafemme

01-17-2013, 10:27 PM

One can do all that without creating an umbrella term with masculine a the defining characteristic.

Sure! You can. I don't think BBP was creating an umbrella term for the masses. I don't really know. It is a term that was useful for the work that they are doing. I don't speak for BBP or Cole. I am just trying to communicate what I have seen, heard and learned. Obviously I am not great at parsing things in an academic way. When people dismiss the term it makes me feel sad. It is an emotional response. You don't have to agree or even understand it.

Greyson

01-17-2013, 10:37 PM

I think most butches DESCRIBE themselves -- or parts of themselves -- as masculine. That is not an ID. Not even close.

But making your UMBRELLA term an ID that puts masculinity first makes it about that in a way that it hasn't always been. It's never been incidental. But to put it first re-valorizes that already highly rewarded signifier. And in my opinion, it does it without any indication that it is being looked at from any angle other than a conventional one. You have to read the fine print to see that. And most people won't.

Martina, your post gives me something more to think about. I do identitfy as masculine it is my ID. For me, I do not see masculinity as male or female.

I did not think I was giving masculinity a place of regard in the conventional sense. Perhaps I have been. I need to think about it. I grew up surrounded by very strong women that could be defined as masculine and their strength was not a negative.

I have learned quite a a bit here in the forumns through the years. Thanks to you and others.

Parker

01-17-2013, 10:44 PM

mainstream butch spaces are inclusive of white butches. mainstream butch spaces are not, by default, inclusive of butches of color. most qpoc i know don't automatically assume we are welcomed in mainstream queer spaces...because we aren't. that is why it is important to be intentionally inclusive.
Sorry Dude but being at the conference and other events made it clear that this does have a whole lot to do with color. That is my personal experience.
well that is fucked up

I'm glad I had no desire to go

thank you for not talking down you nose at me

like I should have known thats what went down there

I cant be eloquent right now because it really pisses me off that any event in the LGBT community would exclude POC - or even make POC feel excluded.

How can you have a conference called Butch Voices and NOT INCLUDE ALL OF OUR VOICES???

I also want to add that it really never occurred to me that calling something Butch-this-or-that would make POC feel that they were not welcome because they dont identify with the term Butch.

Call it privilege or ignorance (or hell, both), but it really never would have occurred to me that Butch wouldnt include all of us and I feel like we, as a community (B-F and LGBT), should seriously talk about this more; but I dont mean that in the POC-should-educate-white-folk way, but more of a we-need-to-get-this-shit-out-into-the-open-to-dispel-the-ignorance-surrounding-it way.

Oh, ps - I agree with Greyson: policing sucks.

Corkey

01-17-2013, 10:51 PM

So center is male? Still trying to understand, it still doesn't make any since. And yes excluding POC from the community sucks and is wrong as hell, just as is saying male id'd people have some sort of privilege. Try living in my skin for a few days. It isn't any better than anyone else's experience.

aishah

01-17-2013, 10:52 PM

i find the fact that bbp puts issues of masculinity at the forefront of their work to be really awesome because i have lived in communities of color that are in crisis because of the intersection of gendered violence and colonialism. i think that's why the term - and their discussions of masculinity and femininity - resonate with me so much. i think their work and the discussions they spark by attempting to re-envision masculinity is very very necessary. (i also have no argument against being grouped under the umbrella term "feminine of center," although i don't find it unproblematic by any means.) i definitely agree that we need to have more discussions about how not to turn around and recreate masculine spaces that are misogynist. and maybe this isn't the right umbrella term. (fuck all the umbrella terms! except, you know, let's find each other so we can work in solidarity. but seriously, fuck all the umbrella terms.)

julieisafemme

01-17-2013, 10:53 PM

No! The racial tension came from the objection to the term MoC! This is my experience of being there. BV did include all the voices by trying to use MoC as an umbrella term. Or at least that is what they thought they were doing. It ended up alienating butch women.

I won't say that all who objected to it were/ are racist. There was a lot of unexamined white privilege that was part of that discussion. And ageism.

See and that was the whole point. To many young MoC butch does NOT include them. That is why BV tried to add in MoC to include those for whom Butch does not resonate or feel good.

I cant be eloquent right now because it really pisses me off that any event in the LGBT community would exclude POC - or even make POC feel excluded.

How can you have a conference called Butch Voices and NOT INCLUDE ALL OF OUR VOICES???

I also want to add that it really never occurred to me that calling something Butch-this-or-that would make POC feel that they were not welcome because they dont identify with the term Butch.

Call it privilege or ignorance (or hell, both), but it really never would have occurred to me that Butch wouldnt include all of us and I feel like we, as a community (B-F and LGBT), should seriously talk about this more; but I dont mean that in the POC-should-educate-white-folk way, but more of a we-need-to-get-this-shit-out-into-the-open-to-dispel-the-ignorance-surrounding-it way.

Oh, ps - I agree with Greyson: policing sucks.

Parker

01-17-2013, 11:09 PM

No! The racial tension came from the objection to the term MoC! This is my experience of being there. BV did include all the voices by trying to use MoC as an umbrella term. Or at least that is what they thought they were doing. It ended up alienating butch women.

I won't say that all who objected to it were/ are racist. There was a lot of unexamined white privilege that was part of that discussion. And ageism.

I know you are talking specifically about that conference and how the people there reacted, but to be honest, it does feel alienating to me - not as a white Butch, but as a Butch woman.

The term feels to me like it negates the woman in me; and I am not even speaking as a Butch woman who does not claim, use, and identify with masculinity - I do consider myself masculine and I have embraced both the masculine and feminine sides of my whole Butch self.*

That's why I would never use it to describe myself - of course, I would never tell another human being that they could not use it to describe themselves either.

*Note: by "I have embraced both the masculine and feminine sides of my whole Butch self" I meant that I have embraced both the masculine and feminine sides of me in every aspect that is me because that is who I am - I did not mean that a Butch is not whole if s/he does not embrace both the masculine and feminine.

julieisafemme

01-17-2013, 11:19 PM

I know you are talking specifically about that conference and how the people there reacted, but to be honest, it does feel alienating to me - not as a white Butch, but as a Butch woman.

The term feels to me like it negates the woman in me; and I am not even speaking as a Butch woman who does not claim, use, and identify with masculinity - I do consider myself masculine and I have embraced both the masculine and feminine sides of my whole Butch self.

That's why I would never use it to describe myself - of course, I would never tell another human being that they could not use it to describe themselves either.

Yes I hear you and understand how you feel. There were many other butch women who felt the same way. All I can tell you is that in the rejection of the term there was unexamined white privilege and ageism. The conversations were extremely heated and emotional. What *I* learned was that for many people of color they did NOT feel comfortable in white butch spaces. They did not feel heard. Butch Voices was trying to include those voices.

I am a white femme. I do not pretend to know what people of color go through. During the weekend I listened and heard that many people felt that butch was a white identity and it did not speak to them. MoC did. It included their particular cultural identities of stud, aggressive, macha, dom etc.

Parker

01-17-2013, 11:25 PM

I am a white femme. I do not pretend to know what people of color go through. During the weekend I listened and heard that many people felt that butch was a white identity and it did not speak to them. MoC did. It included their particular cultural identities of stud, aggressive, macha, dom etc.

I feel you on this and I wonder if we (community) can &/or should use both then: Butch &/or Masculine of Center.

In my mind - again, this could be my age, my privilege, or my ignorance - Butch encompasses us all; but now that I know that Butch can be marginalizing for POC but Masculine of Center is a more accepted term, I will start using both when speaking about Butches in general.

Boots13

01-17-2013, 11:25 PM

I cannot begin tell everyone how much I appreciate the opinons, the facts, the beliefs, the politics and even the bias of this subject.

My challenge is to recognize the culture (my predispostion to white butch culture?) that inadvertantly establishes a bias. I also want to reflect and address who and where I am within that. I guess most notably any unintentional fallout from my staunchly defending my Butch id which then may be percieved as exclusionary... It was in my "blind spot" and I was unaware that in my unabashed support of Butch, I may have set up a predispostion to exclusion. Who knew ?

My head is really spinning over this...
good night -

Greyson

01-17-2013, 11:29 PM

Yes I hear you and understand how you feel. There were many other butch women who felt the same way. All I can tell you is that in the rejection of the term there was unexamined white privilege and ageism. The conversations were extremely heated and emotional. What *I* learned was that for many people of color they did NOT feel comfortable in white butch spaces. They did not feel heard. Butch Voices was trying to include those voices.

I am a white femme. I do not pretend to know what people of color go through. During the weekend I listened and heard that many people felt that butch was a white identity and it did not speak to them. MoC did. It included their particular cultural identities of stud, aggressive, macha, dom etc.

Although I do not want to use MOC for myself, I did understand how they believed that Butch was a white identity. I guess because I am old enough to remember when white lesbians shunned using Butch as an identity, and there were POC Butches. Today there are many White Female Identified Butches. I am not saying that is a bad thing.

Parker

01-17-2013, 11:31 PM

nowandthen

01-18-2013, 12:01 AM

I think for me what is the hardest and most painful part is to know that my good heart and intention along with my marginalization as a queer is a white experience which is not an easy thing to see, name and work on. When we as white folks talk about race most often we are looking out instead of in and locating ourselves in the system. Being a white queer masculine person has its benefits even when if I am called sir 9 out of ten times and I know I am not. I am not racially profiled everywhere I go, in fact when I am assumed male I am often asked for my thoughts on subjects I know nothing about. In my last relationship, I was assumed to have the college education as well as my family with only one parent who had a HS diploma and my girlfriend is a lawyer and her parents went to college but she is a WOC. My point is part of keeping things the same is the use of white guilt as a tool of policing the system. So as much as I want to think my experience is the same as other butch's or MoC or any other label the one thing I can not escape is that of being white and that come with unearned privilege. So I keep pushing, unlearning and healing, and that which is giving light grows

Okiebug61

01-18-2013, 12:03 AM

I think most butches DESCRIBE themselves -- or parts of themselves -- as masculine. That is not an ID. Not even close.

I do not id as being masucline at all. The world's stereotyping put's that crap on my ass imo. I am a lesbian that loves being a woman and loves loving a woman. I refuse to accept the stereotypical lables of what a woman should wear, carry or act. I'm am highly offended when anyone attempts to deam what I have the right to think about myself and think they have the right to determine how I define to ID myself.

Medusa

01-18-2013, 12:18 AM

I hope Jack will come in here and discuss her experience with the BV conference. She was on the very first "steering" committee for all of 30 days. She chose to leave when it became clear to her that the Aging Female "Butch" in "Butch Voices" was going to take a back seat.

That's her story to tell and I hope she tells it.

One thing I will say is that I was really glad to see that there was a push to welcome and embrace young masculinities of color, experiences of different abilities, and folks with non-traditional masculine experiences. It was time for it.

Something that happened for me when I was on the original steering committee for the Femme Collective is that my world of "what I didn't know" was expanded. And it hurt like hell sometimes. And this is where I tell you I fought pretty hard to police "Femme" from Men. Was that my privilege talking or my fear? Was that my indignant belief that Femme was Queer and Female? At the time, I had to let some of my shit go. Some of that shit that I had fought really hard to claim, because, in the end, the most important thing for me was that I was recognized for who I was and that all of my sisters were recognized for who they were.

I don't know what the point of this was, but there it is.

Toughy

01-18-2013, 12:34 AM

Concerning the center............How about the center is androgynous-an equal mix of masculinity and femininity? MoC simply would be the masculine side of androgyny. Femme of Center would be the feminine side. There is no male or female sex involved. It's about the energy. *shrug*

White butch women, including me, got a bit bent (to say the least) about the MoC thing. So much so that it caused a split within the BV Conference leadership and community and it got messy and there were a couple of three issues besides MoC. Nobody was listening to anybody. BV leadership includes many PoC and it's not easy on white folk when PoC are in charge. Change is hard.

I went to the Conference and was invited to sit on the InterGenerational Panel. It was an amazing experience. I am still jaw dropped amazed at those kids.....

I went with an open heart and mind to try to understand what was going on. I came away from it with a better understanding of the dynamics.

I do think the language could be tweaked, but I am not involved with BV so I made my suggestion and they can do what they want. No skin off my back.

I still don't claim masculine of center as identity.....I'm a butch woman....but it certainly fits as a description of how I present.

Corkey

01-18-2013, 12:40 AM

chai~

01-18-2013, 12:47 AM

bookmarking to read later

Toughy

01-18-2013, 12:55 AM

I don't have an opinion one way or the other, I don't care who's in charge, I just want clear language so that I understand. No more no less.

It's pretty clear to those who claim it..........<grin> .......and if you don't get stuck on the phrase 'MoC' it's pretty damned inclusive and clear to me. And I met the folks who coined the phrase and they are mostly female/woman id'd folks and not afraid to say so.

Us old farts have to remember we are old and the kids speak a language that is hard for us to get..........<grin>

Corkey

01-18-2013, 12:59 AM

It's pretty clear to those who claim it..........<grin> .......and if you don't get stuck on the phrase 'MoC' it's pretty damned inclusive and clear to me. And I met the folks who coined the phrase and they are mostly female/woman id'd folks and not afraid to say so.

Us old farts have to remember we are old and the kids speak a language that is hard for us to get..........<grin>

LOL I know I'm old, which is why I've been asking for clarification..and the cat is trying to post.

nowandthen

01-18-2013, 01:01 AM

I don't have an opinion one way or the other, I don't care who's in charge, I just want clear language so that I understand. No more no less.

But there is language and a definition and folks have said what it means to them, so I am confused? What will it take for you to understand that you may not need to understand? Maybe that is ok? not attacking I curious

Corkey

01-18-2013, 01:09 AM

But there is language and a definition and folks have said what it means to them, so I am confused? What will it take for you to understand that you may not need to understand? Maybe that is ok? not attacking I curious

Perhaps because there is not one but several definitions of the same word that confuses the word as I know the word to mean. That word "center". I know everyone has their own identity and have no definition problems surrounding the word "gender". When the two words are used together they do not make since to me. Toughy's use of energy makes more since to me than "gender" "center" does. And I'm old and understand the english language as I learned in that growing old. New concepts are not impossible to learn, but it does take time and if I want to be respectful of peoples gender identities then it behoves me to understand them. Clearer?

Martina

01-18-2013, 02:25 AM

Us old farts have to remember we are old and the kids speak a language that is hard for us to get..........<grin>

True, and amazing things have happened since I was young. BUT, in some ways the United States is more conservative than it was when I was a kid. And my memory of pre-Reagan days is an asset, something the young do not have.

A good friend of mine is from a different country and culture -- I am not going to specify to avoid squabbling -- and he and his generation are MUCH more conservative than his parents.

The world has forgotten how far to the right it has drifted. There have been huge gains, but within a context, a larger context, of a more conservative ethos. I think it's changing as the demographics change. But it will be a long time before we replace what we have lost -- genuinely radical and liberal movements and institutions. And, of course, they will look and be different. And probably the most creative and powerful will come from outside the United States and Western Europe.

I have a healthy fear of the conventional because I know the real prison that it used to be for women and others. And it still can be. How many states now can we not get an abortion in? State after state is turning back the clock on these and other issues. Is it the last gasp of a dying ideology? Yes. But it still has power. Tremendous power.

It's alarming to me when something conventionally sexist is not seen or defended. I do think that is true of this phrase. As it reads, not as its creators intended it. Masculine of Center. How can its connotations be extracted from the context of policing gender, the context of bullying, the context of gender privilege? Is there any place where policing, bullying and gender privilege do not obtain? So casually invoking them, even when that is the opposite of your intention, should, IMO, send off alarm bells. Perhaps it only does in the old who can recall when gender oppression was the norm and objecting to it got you laughed at or hurt.

Compare that to queer, an umbrella term that came into use when I was already an adult. It was a rehabilitated pejorative. It had the power to appall. To frighten. Its connotations included glory holes and jail cells and bashings. And we took all that power away from our oppressors and turned it back on them.

Boots13

01-18-2013, 07:46 AM

The world has forgotten how far to the right it has drifted. There have been huge gains, but within a context, a larger context, of a more conservative ethos. I think it's changing as the demographics change. But it will be a long time before we replace what we have lost -- genuinely radical and liberal movements and institutions. And, of course, they will look and be different. And probably the most creative and powerful will come from outside the United States and Western Europe.

I have to leave for work soon, but wanted to briefly comment on two things:

Do you think our conservative ethos is born of ethical, moral and a generational correctness (it used to be called PC, but that term feels antiquated and inflammatory to me?) That we want change, but rather than the huge sweeping rallies of the 60's/70's and the subversive violence of the 80's/90's that protested many huge issues , Activism today is directed toward its specific causes? Activism then feels less radical due to its smaller scales though more frequent incidents...

And I also wanted to throw out there, I dont know how to proudly claim Butch, without setting up an exclusionary dynamic. If the term Butch is white-centric, and if using the word Butch sets up a bias whats my next best-practice for disassembling that exclusion without diluting my identification ??? Or is it the ultimate goal to NOT have discriptors and live in a fluid world of humans "being"... in which case having NO words or descriptors is a slippery slope to homogeny.

my head is still trying to wrap around the white-centric dynamic of claiming Butch , when I was stuck on the white-MALE-centric association of Center !

Medusa

01-18-2013, 09:07 AM

I think we (the community) can claim "Butch" without accepting and supporting the white-centric spaces it creates for folks of Color.

Greyson gave a fine example about how "Butch" has not always been white-centric. So maybe we need to look at when that happened? When did "Butch" start meaning "MoC Not Welcome"?

I saw it suggested on the Dash site a couple of times but it was sandwiched in between the idea that the entire Butch/Femme community was racist on some level i.e. "too white", and our need to expand, as a community, not only our verbiage but definition of "Butch".

When I try to think about the juxtaposition and parallels of "Femme" and "Diva" or "Femme and "Lady", I recognize "Diva" and "Lady" as a label used by several women of Color I know who use those labels to recognize the intersection of their gender and race. I also know many women of Color who use "Femme" (or "Daddy")

Does "Femme" support a white paradigm as well?

The_Lady_Snow

01-18-2013, 09:38 AM

I'd like to also remind you (general) that MoC can be claimed by Womyn and Femme's, I personally could identify with my MoC. That's the thing with gender and its fluidity as is with masculine/feminine.. It's not owned by F or M regardless of race..

nowandthen

01-18-2013, 11:04 AM

I have to leave for work soon, but wanted to briefly comment on two things:

Do you think our conservative ethos is born of ethical, moral and a generational correctness (it used to be called PC, but that term feels antiquated and inflammatory to me?) That we want change, but rather than the huge sweeping rallies of the 60's/70's and the subversive violence of the 80's/90's that protested many huge issues , Activism today is directed toward its specific causes? Activism then feels less radical due to its smaller scales though more frequent incidents...

And I also wanted to throw out there, I dont know how to proudly claim Butch, without setting up an exclusionary dynamic. If the term Butch is white-centric, and if using the word Butch sets up a bias whats my next best-practice for disassembling that exclusion without diluting my identification ??? Or is it the ultimate goal to NOT have discriptors and live in a fluid world of humans "being"... in which case having NO words or descriptors is a slippery slope to homogeny.

my head is still trying to wrap around the white-centric dynamic of claiming Butch , when I was stuck on the white-MALE-centric association of Center !

I want to say that this medium is always a hard place to talk through and listen too different folks. I do not know most folks on here and can not know intention or tone. This topic gender and race can and often times feel personal, I try to use I statements and use information that I have read or heard to inform my unlearning. I am not here to attack, change or shame anyone. I am here to add to the knowledge pile so folks can make there own decision and I too can learn from you all as well.

I think Butch is not exclusively a white centered word. I think what I was saying about the tools of white supremacy included the concept of PC. That term for me is again born of the power to name. It arrived from my thinking from those on the right in a push back against all the folks demanding rights, access and visibility. I think there is a big difference with self-reflection of how one benefits or does not benefit from a system set up to create difference to make a few rich and powerful at the expense of others. Capitalism is at the root of the system of difference, the need for a working class, the need to believe there is such a thing as a middle class. If you get a pay check it does not matter how many zero's are on it you work for someone else. Very few live off the interest of the money made by others. But I digress sort of, their is a link to all of this and that is power and money.

It has taking me many years to understand how white guilt and liberal politics often keep me from seeing my own privilege.Because they are self-policing tools to keep me in support of difference. Again it is hard to both be white and work against structural racism. But we all have internal bias's that must be worked on, and us white folks are not the only folks that have racial judgements, and as I say that I want to be clear there is no such thing as reverse racism which works in a power-over model racial bias while also making generalizations base on melatonin operates is many different combinations of power and access.So I have no shame about being white, what I do have is sadness about how racism hurts me too. I have understand the difference between individual and structural racism, I must understand that my experience though similar in some ways is different because of how being white works in the world, I must keep working on not being defensive when I am called out, and I must not feel shame for something I did not create. White guilt is a PC concept that paralyzes the work we as white folks must do. Being Butch is not the same, I may be seen as a white man when I walk in the restroom, I am not read as a POCman though I may have some similar experiences like the "look that I can not read, pervert etc" I am not read the same as many of POC friends who id Butch friends. That is for me important to remember in these conversation is two or more things can be happening at once, and the yes I can understand those things that are similar, I do not know what is is to not be white, so I must believe those who are and telling me where they are have additional experiences and not personalize it, but hear it. Anyway, One group of folks I know doing great work is Dr. Shakti Butler and her organization at Worldtrust.org. THe have use film as an educational platform, they have short clips on the web page that are helpful and I watch all the time because I hear something new each time. We all come to this at different moments in our lives, what we do not get to do is arrive at some finish line that gives us a certificate in race or gender awareness, because like everything else, all white folks do not have the same story, we have being white in common but how that works in our lives is not the same in California as it is in Texas or New York, some of us have single parents, some of us have lost our parents. So, my story criss crosses yours. I use this example sometimes to help understand with compassion and not shame, I still have both my parents, so when a friend says they lost one or both at anypoint in there like, my first empathetic PC response is to say I understand, because I have lost friends, grandparents, but that is not the same as losing a parent so my words are hallow with good intention. I have learned to say, I do not know what is like to lose a parent, I do understand the grief process as I have had loss, How can I support you. It seems a simple thing but when applied across race and gender and most everything, it allows me to not know and yet have something in common. I hope that made sense. Anyway off I go thanks to all adding to my growth

Martina

01-18-2013, 11:41 AM

Re progressive and lgbt organizations and race.

First, I am out of touch and intend to stay that way -- in terms of being active in groups and organizations (there are a few exceptions, none of them queer).

But when I was more involved and active, it was nearly impossible to keep a representative number of PoC participating. Our privilege showed. When people of color took came around, they were welcomed, but shit still happened. There were exceptions, but people still cycled in and out. People always do. But a larger proportion of the PoC didn't stay.

I think the fights that sometimes occurred around these issues were educational. But they weren't transformative of the organizations I was involved in. Two sorta got taken over by POC in a direct effort to make changes on this issue. Anyway, these groups changed. But when white leadership and a white majority were maintained, there was never enough growth in the groups *I* have been involved in to make it a welcoming enough environment that PoC did not come and go like there was a revolving door.

CherylNYC

01-18-2013, 12:11 PM

...
I don't know how to proudly claim Butch, without setting up an exclusionary dynamic. If the term Butch is white-centric, and if using the word Butch sets up a bias whats my next best-practice for disassembling that exclusion without diluting my identification ??? Or is it the ultimate goal to NOT have descriptors and live in a fluid world of humans "being"... in which case having NO words or descriptors is a slippery slope to homogeny.

my head is still trying to wrap around the white-centric dynamic of claiming Butch , when I was stuck on the white-MALE-centric association of Center !

I don't think there is any agreement, much less consensus, that there's anything white-centric or exclusionary about claiming 'butch'. I know many POCs who proudly claim it, and have no mixed feelings whatsoever about the word or the ID. As explained above, there are POCs who don't, for their own reasons, use the word for themselves. This discussion does seem to break along generational lines.

If a group of people decided to stop using the word 'femme' to describe themselves, and came up with a new identifier FOR THEMSELVES, I wouldn't be in a big hurry to change my own ID in response.

Martina

01-18-2013, 02:07 PM

I always thought it made a lot of sense that many men -- African American ones I knew or knew about in Detroit -- did not claim gay even though they were out and exclusively homosexual. I have seen African American gay men in social and political groups suffer the slings and arrows of subtle and not so subtle racism. Even with their friends. It wasn't all the time, but there was never a time that they could anticipate when it would be over, when they could imagine it not coming up again.

I have had my own issues with the lgbt community, but it has been a home of sorts. I hate it that for many, because they are PoC, that never happened. But it's a fact -- of my generation anyway. And I respect the decision to NOT identify as gay. Again, one of the people I knew who did that organized the Hotter than July festivities for a few years -- the Black Gay Pride celebration. So he was not in any way not out. It was a statement, his ID. And I respected it.

puddin'

01-20-2013, 12:57 PM

for me, gender is fluid... some days i'm butch as, some days i'ma boi. some days i've even been known to squeal like a girl. lol.

i've neva much liked identities. it's too confinin' fo' me. i'm always in flux, and (at 54) i like it dat way.

i like to think i'm a mellow blend o' woman/man...

Martina

01-20-2013, 03:20 PM

Do you think our conservative ethos is born of ethical, moral and a generational correctness (it used to be called PC, but that term feels antiquated and inflammatory to me?) That we want change, but rather than the huge sweeping rallies of the 60's/70's and the subversive violence of the 80's/90's that protested many huge issues , Activism today is directed toward its specific causes? Activism then feels less radical due to its smaller scales though more frequent incidents...

Sorry. I missed this till now. Yeah, I think it has been harder to recognize what is radical and what is not. Some of it is scale. I don't know.

The conservatism has nothing to do with political correctness, but is a larger cultural force -- worldwide. I recall when ACT-UP still seemed like yesterday, but all the LGBT activism you could see was the HRC and the beginnings of marriage equality. It left a bitter taste. But things are changing. We can see more clearly the cracks in the edifice of late capitalism. Thanks to harsh realities like the recession and the effects of global warming, but also thanks to the Arab Spring, the Occupy Movement, and even that horrible election season.

JustBeingMe

01-24-2013, 09:00 PM

Just wondering if anyone else has anything to say about MoC? Bumpin the thread back to life.

Loren_Q

01-25-2013, 11:42 AM

Just wondering if anyone else has anything to say about MoC? Bumpin the thread back to life.

Yes, sort of.

I'm not fond of the term, but it doesn't bother me either.

I can relate to the thinking that 'butch' belongs to a specific group (i.e. Caucasian). I am Asian/Mexican but I came of age at a time when "butch" was more inclusive. So I'll continue to use butch (and the less popular androgynous) for myself and let others use what is most comfortable to them.

As to the ire about MOC taking away/replacing butch as an identity: I don't think it does, it doesn't take away from mine but YMMV. I'm not entirely clear why someone elses preferred identification should impact mine.

I did want to bring this back to the OP's original questions,and since I'll screw up multi-quoting I'll copy/paste her questions.

Anyway, those who know, is MoC becoming a more used term? Who is adopting it?
I do believe it's more accepted in the younger POC community. But I also think those who ID as Stud, Macha, and Aggressive prefer to use Stud, Macha, and Aggressive before they use MoC.

Do you like it? Would you adopt it?
Already answered. But there is one caveat, I may grow to like it more and later find that I could/would adopt it.

Is the term just more inclusive -- like queer -- or meant/experienced as a rejection or replacement of other terms? If the latter, why?
I think the intent is to be more inclusive and not rejection/replacement. However I also believe any attempt to create an umbrella term will be met with dissatisfaction by some.

Loren

JustBeingMe

01-25-2013, 12:49 PM

Thanks L, for the input. I found this thread interesting to say the least. I enjoyed reading your thoughts on this. I hope more post as well.

Greyson

03-28-2013, 09:00 PM

In my reading today I ran across this. It is about an article ran in Jet Magazine in October 1970. Two African American women in Chicago got married. The term butch or femme is not used but neither is the terms "stud" and masculine of center.

I was 16 back then and just beginning to hang out with the other butches and femmes I was meeting that were in my age group and coming out. When I saw this photo of Peaches and Edna it took me way back. This is what I remember when coming out. POC Butches and Femmes were here but not in positions of leadership in the Women's Movement.

One of my points in all of this is to give others a glimpse of what it was like for POC working class lesbians, butches and femmes. Below are two links to this story. In the Jet Archives site you will see on the same page a piece about interacial marriage just beginning in Maryland. Look where we are today. It has gotten better but not good enough, yet.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ijcDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA1&vq=Female%20Marriage&hl=En&pg=PA54#v=onepage&q=Female%20Marriage&f=true

http://www.buzzfeed.com/saeedjones/jet-magazine-covered-this-lesbian-wedding-in-1970

imperfect_cupcake

03-28-2013, 10:03 PM

I have seen the term used a lot on tumblr with the under 25 kids cautiously coming out as "not feminine". I read their blogs and I love all the new fashion sites they are building, taking notes from DapperQ and others.

I'm for whatever people want to use. I know way too many people that do not believe they are butch or want to use the term. For them, it means something else. I used to argue with partners "but you *are* you are just misunderstanding what butch means..."
No, to me butch IS an umbrella term. to them it is *not* and they don't wish to use it. Just like many people in the UK find the term "butch" to actually mean "american masculinity" (not all, but a good chunk of people I knew in london) and thus came up with their own.

I cam home to find all these women who I would say had a more "rugged" style masculinity expression than the ones in uk, france and netherlands and yet they do not see themselves as butch... but they know they ain't no girl. I called them boydykes, they even fidgeted at that. Nothing they could gab onto makes them comfortable. But MoC they nod at, ok yeah, of course.

It does not hold up under deconstructive scrutiny but ... so the fuck what? there's a ton of people out there that actually really need open terms, like genderqueer and MoC. Who am I to pick their terms apart like femme has been ripped at over the time I have used it?

There is no way I'm going to do that to someone else's like what was done to me. Femme torn apart like some label terminology, politically deconstructed and chewed and put on the table to show me just how weak it was.

not gonna do that to a term that other people need or want. Centre of a line that I don't believe exists? so what. it works. I get the metaphor. I understand the gesture that is trying to be made and the hand signals.

I personally dn't think "Masculinity"is a great word either as I don't think many of my partners wanted to adopt the term. they wanted their own word for what they projected but there wasn't one. so in lew of that word they grudgingly accept that is just the category people see it under. A gesture for a poor language.

That's what MoC is, to me. it's an attempt to decribe something in brief terms so that people will "get it."

if someone called themself "FoC" - have at it. I don't own femininity. if they want to include me in a metagroup? meh. sure. no skin off my nose. it doesn't stop me from going to school or wearing what I do or loving who I love.

I dunno, call me a fucking waffle if you want. Doesn't change anything. A rose is still what it is no matter what you call it. And the same goes for me.

And I think it's great there is more space for people, especially the young ones, to come out into while they find their feet.

I'm going to a massive dragking show on saturday and it will be full of tomboys, androgyne-boys, bois, MoC, genderqueer and all kinds of people who in my brain are butch, but for them, are very happy being called something they don't feel has any rules around it. And it makes them more comfortable, then I'm happy.
I still see them as I always have when they are in bed with me, can't help it, I came out when I did so to me, butch is the umbrella term. But I keep that to myself and don't force anyone to adopt what their dictionary says doesn't fit.

their definition is waaayyy different than mine but I gave up arguing that mine was better and right. it's just mine is all.