Female Bodies Across Gender Identities

[BullDog]

I got the inspiration for this thread from the new Blood threads. First there was Butch Blood. Then there was Femme Blood. Since most of the members here are either currently female bodied or were in the past, I thought what the heck why not BF Blood? Then I thought, well maybe something broader would be better.

No offense to the other threads at all, but I do sometimes wonder why we hardly ever talk about our common experiences of being female and/or female bodied despite our differences in gender identity. Or have conversations about our experiences across gender identities. Thoughts?

Anyway I just thought it would be interesting to see if we could have a conversation across genders about our various experiences of being female bodied.

[Cyclopea]

Are you objectifying my body?!?:tease:
:jester:

[Waldo]

Are you objectifying my body?!?:tease:
:jester:


Yes.

Got a problem with that?

[Pixie]

What a lovely idea. I think anyway.

I know I am currently reveling on the fact that clothing...whether you are buying guys or girls they assume the bigger you are the taller you are....hmmmm

Hope that doesn't derail...just wanted to contribute and that was what was on my mind!!!

Pixie

[PapaC]

Care to take a lead in the discussion? ie: topic that comes to mind (besides blood)? I've been curious to know (for quite some time actually) how trans* navigate around medical procedures, access to medical advice/expertise and how it may or may not compared to access as female bodied/women identified, generally speaking. (and that might be something I'll address in another thread)

I'll tell my thought process on this...

I'm female bodied but altered with 'more than average' 'secondary sex characteristics' where most would read as 'male'.

I'm listed as M (I believe) on almost all medical 'dialogue' if you will, in the province of British Columbia. Consequently, if I'm going to a lab for example to do blood work, no one there knows that I'm female bodied. In fact, I happily got undressed to my underwear to get x-rays done on my knees this week. (I don't pack).

Unless someone else is present on any sort of internal procedures and tests, only my physician(s) is aware that I'm female bodied (endocrinologists don't count as they fully know given my Testosterone therapy). There may/may not have been some confusion when I was patiently waiting for my appointment with my ob/gyn surgeon in the waiting room, and "Christopher" was called as the Dr.'s next patient. lol (imagine the possible looks as I followed the receptionist sporting a goatee. ;-) -FUN!)

I'm very very fortunate in my experiences in this province thus far. I'm very thankful that I personally have it framed in my head that I'm a human being FIRST seeking medical treatment (and that has made all the difference). My only real worry might be: when will/or if it does 'matter' that I reveal my at-birth gender 'assignment'..

or ya know what? why mince words really? I.am.female.bodied. period. What letter might be on a form or not isn't an issue. My current (and for some time will be) body configuration doesn't 'allow' for me to be 100% stealth. I'm at peace with that.

I think because I'm so heavily involved in my quest for health and medical access -- as I avoided doctors and examines for close to a decade (for example, didn't have paps for 10 years or more), that I'm very specific about what I call my genitals (munt, and magina words notwithstanding).

Not sure this is on topic per se, but I'm at least sharing some information of what its like for me specifically.

Carry on. :)

[Bit]

....I do sometimes wonder why we hardly ever talk about our common experiences of being female and/or female bodied despite our differences in gender identity. Or have conversations about our experiences across gender identities. Thoughts?

I'm too tired to be really coherent in any kind of deep discussion tonight, but I think this is a very valuable discussion that could benefit us all.

We do all start from the same general kind of place. We do have worlds of experiences in common.

I'm looking forward to the conversation.

[BullDog]

Thank you for all the responses so far.

Chris, I was wondering if I had left things too general- not leading with a specific topic- but I am hoping it will be a free flowing conversation and see where it goes.

Your post is definitely right on target!

I would love to hear from all gender identities who would like to discuss being female bodied from their personal experience and have a cross gender discussion about that so we can all learn from each other. Of course I am open to wherever the discussion takes us.

[I'mOneToo]

This is an interesting topic, but it seems like it might fall to the bottom of the fish bowl.

BullDog, I would look forward to reading your personal insights, too. I think PapaC has brought forth one aspect of this subject of "experiences across gender identities". PixieStars raised the issue of clothing. Not sure if that's the target you're shooting for but I can share a couple of experiences.

My outward experience is probably perceived as male. In body type, clothing, hair style, manner of speaking, etc. Yet, I am fully aware and comfortable with the female body that I inhabit. I go for regular checkups at the gynecologist, bi-annual mammograms, and it never strikes me that maybe others in the waiting room think I 'don't belong' somehow. Because I see myself as human first? I don't know.

One time, I went to buy some jeans at a department store. Men's jeans are displayed in the men's department. Usually I buy the same size, but holding up two pair of the same size marked, one looked smaller than the other. So I thought I'd better try them on, to get the pair that fit the best. Went to the sales clerk and asked if there was a fitting room nearby. She looked at the direction of the nearest one, which was in fact in the men's department. She immediately frowned and said "You cannot use the men's fitting room." I said, "I didn't ask that, I asked where the nearest fitting room was." She said, "You'll have to go to the women's department, which is across the store." Then I said, "Are there any men currently in the other fitting room, which is closer, who would be disturbed if I tried these on in there?" She said "It's store policy. Only men are allowed in the men's fitting room."

I thought about it for a second. Then I put both pairs of pants on the counter in front of her, turned around, and walked out. I have a policy too. And that is, I don't spend money at department stores that discriminate against people. If there had been even one customer inside the "men's" fitting room, I could see upholding policy. But with no other customers, and a potential sale standing in front of her, and the only thing wanted to try on was two pair of pants... well. Policy is policy, after all. But what I thought she was really doing, was policing my gender expression.

There are many other examples of experience across gender identity, but that's all I can think of for now.

[julieisafemme]

What an excellent thread!

[BullDog]

I'mOneToo, thank you so much for helping to revive the thread. I have definitely dropped the ball here. I will gather some thoughts together to share some of my experiences. Maybe the server move will give me some extra time to finish my assignment. :D

I don't really have any specific topics in mind to discuss here. Perhaps I am being too vague and that's not helping the thread along. It just struck me the other day that when we talk about our experiences as being female bodied we tend to keep them "in house" so to speak. Butches talk in butch threads, femmes talk in femmes threads, trans people talk in trans threads. I just thought it would be great for people of all different gender identities to come together to have a cross gender discussion about our experiences all in one thread and one discussion.

As to clothes shopping, that's a royal pain for me. First of all, I don't like to shop and hate trying clothes on. I do shop in the mens department but it's hard for me to find clothes to fit. Shoes are even worse. I have small feet so I have to shop in the kids department. Personally I wouldn't mind buying womens shoes but to me they all seem too girly for me. I usually buy boys shoes.

When trying clothes on I will sometimes use the mens department or sometimes carry clothes over to the womens department depending how I feel at the time. I do try to shop in off hours because I hate crowds. I haven't ever been told I couldn't use a mens dressing room. Awhile back, after I finished paying for some clothing I did hear a sales clerk (young woman) talking to another sales clerk saying why do I always get stuck having to help all the freaks.

I shall return with more thoughts soon. I hope more people of all gender identities will share their thoughts. Thank you for everyone who has posted so far. I am reading everything with great interest.

[Galahad]

Just to bump this up. I like the topic and what everyone is saying I shop at Goodwill for clothes usually. Designer dress shirts are my downfall. No matter what, the cashier always keys in Women's blouses. They see me every week going through the men's shirts, but from the managers on down they key in women's clothing. I probably should correct them but don't. I rarely return anything.

[Dragonfly]

I have a very heated argument going on about this inside my head. On one hand, I dont want non gendered bathrooms or dressing rooms. I have had bad experiences with bio males that I would be uncomfortable with that as I am vulnerable and such in those two places. I dont want peeped on or assaulted. No one does do they, that is why they separate for hetero cultures and bi gender cultures. Its a privacy that is based on the assumption that 1. all bio genders are hetero and attracted to the oppposite gender and 2. there are no homosexual of the same gender in the room with you.

Well most of us here know someone who is uncomfortable using the "right" one because we are not 1. bi gendered human race 2. All hetero. I think that is is almost a lost cause because to make it more accessable may make it possible for someone to be harmed by someone abusing the open door gender policy. It would make something positive for us be viewed as negative for everyone else.

Transgendered sexuality is also as random as anyone elses, so would we all need a sexuality card to prove which room we belong in with those we aren't perving on? And what about Bisexuals, no matter which of the gender ID's they use.... are they possibly perving on everyone?

So for now... Gay men can perv on each other. Gay women can perv on each other. So then why is it a problem for a gay man to be in with the ladies in the bathroom? What if the guy is just a creep pretending to be gay is the answer I got when I asked around... I am just sooo torn and think someday there will have to be a 3rd restroom/dressing room... and it will maybe be a single occupant use room so that everyone is equally being served AND no one can abuse the non gendered room.

Wow that really sounds like "separate but equal" dont it? I really dont know what I will think in the end... but at least I am thinking about the problem and trying to eventually have an opinion towards improvement.

[Daywalker]

**Subscribing**

:daywalker:

[Bit]

This is an interesting topic, but it seems like it might fall to the bottom of the fish bowl.



Thanks for stirring it back to the surface!

I strongly suspect that the woman who was policing your gender in the store lied to you. My guess is that there is no such policy about the dressing rooms. I myself have used men's dressing rooms when the women's was clear across the store--and in this economy, I bet the manager would have preferred you bought a pair of pants no matter which room you used.

I think that, like BullDog, your anonymity worked against you. I'm willing to bet that had either sales clerk/cashier known either of you as a person, they would never have been able to dismiss you so cavalierly. I've noticed that sales clerks and cashiers in department stores quite often seem to see me as merely one of a set of interchangeable objects, "customer," rather than as an individual.

Gay women can perv on each other.

Eeeew. That's just distasteful to me... I don't wish to be ogled in a dressing room by ANYONE, nor do I wish to ogle anyone. It's all about trying the clothes on as fast as possible and getting the heck back out.

I understand that you're working your way logically through the whole thing and I see that you're making progress--it's just that the sentence I quoted really pushed a button with me. Ew.

I don't know how to provide safety in dressing rooms and I guess, when I think about it, I don't expect safety in dressing rooms.

Maybe that's one reason I hate trying clothes on; I just don't expect it to be safe? *shrugs*

[Medusa]

Bit,

Your post was reported. The part where you quoted Amelia talking about "Gay women perving on each other" and then your subsequent response of "Eeeeew, that's distasteful" can feel hurtful to people who identify as Gay Women if you dont specify that you are feeling "Eeeeww" about being perved in the bathroom or if you are "Eeeewing" Gay women perving on each other.

The way it is written feels targeted to Gay Women specifically because the whole paragraph isnt quoted, just the part about Gay Women.

We want to maintain a welcoming space for folks who identify as Gay Women, Trans women, Lesbians, Butches, Femmes, and Dykes. I know you stand behind that so let's all please try to aware of the space when responding.

Thanks so much,
a

[Jess]

Great thread! I know that personally I do relate to a lot of issues "femmes" face because I am afterall, a woman. I however, feel uncomfortable intruding on femme space, as I am fully aware that they are usually coming from a slightly different space with the same issues ( or seeking a specific type of support/ understanding) and it just feels odd for me to say "well, yanno.. me too".

I totally get the whole "shopping/ trying on clothes/ public restroom " issues. My partner is usually more aware than I am of the ogles, or comments if she is nearby, because I have for the most part taught myself to ignore folks. When it is glaringly obvious, I become incredibly uncomfortable, as if I am in the wrong place. The double takes at me then at the name of the door.. and the worse by far is a mom who ushers her child away. That one really stings.

I'm sure there are a great many issues that cross the gender preference line and I will visit this thread often. Thanks again for opening the door!

[Dragonfly]

I am sorry that my thoughts were taken that way. I am sorry you were bothered by the way I worded my thoughts. I was not saying gay women or men DO perv on each other but was thinking so logically that I did not realize it may cause uncomfort to anyone. I was actually thinking about my own feelings in said "female" bathrooms and dressing rooms. I am so sorry to be in there that I think it shows to the others in there. I look down a lot in the bathrooms or away from people coming in and out.

Dressing rooms are harder because the curtain ones. I prefer doors. I AM looked at like I AM perving by the other ladies going in and out, but really only when I am dressed in obviously male marketed clothing and trying on more obviously male marketed items. I AM NOT perving of course. And I really dont like the thought of anyone of any gender or sexuality imposing their eyes were they are not invited to look.

I was exploring the separation of genders and the why's that various genders and sexualities may WANT separate privacy places. If I am uncomfortable being in there, I imagine the other people may be as- or more- uncomfortable having me in there. I only meant that society is "putting up with" same sexualities being in places together but not wanting to mix genders.

Oh and I have never had a prob using the men's dressing rooms by the sales clerks or the men using them. I personally dont feel comfy dressing in some of them, (esp ones unsupervised and off in the corner of a large store) but it is easier on everyone's comfort if I do. I'd rather be the one uncomfortable than make the little old ladies feel uncomfortable when they can't tell if I am a man or woman in there.

Ooo I also love the Salvation Army and Thrift Stores dressing rooms because they are single rooms and non gendered. Some of our gay clubs nearby have a third restroom or non gendered restrooms. I love that and never feel uncomfy or like I am seen as some perv in my own community. I assume they "get it" and dont think twice about it.

It seems like it is individuals on a power trip that are using it as an excuse to discriminate and hurt rather than serve said customer.

And yes those two places are sometimes abused by the criminal behavior of a sexual intrusive nature, and I always cover the floor drains with my foot before going pee. lol. I saw that hidden camera crap on the news.

[Jess]

Seems a shame to have to think so much just to take a piss. I would prefer to have non gender specific full closure "stalls" in public facilities. Perhaps men and women ( and all variations ) would be forced to be a tad more courteous.. ie: not pissing on seats.. not hogging sink to do make up... I see using the restroom in public as a necessity, not some field trip or a place to "pick up" folks. I leave that for erotica fantasy. LOL!
As for changing rooms, I actually very rarely try something on. Either it fits ( great!) or it doesn't and I take it back.

[Bit]

Bit,

Your post was reported. The part where you quoted Amelia talking about "Gay women perving on each other" and then your subsequent response of "Eeeeew, that's distasteful" can feel hurtful to people who identify as Gay Women if you dont specify that you are feeling "Eeeeww" about being perved in the bathroom or if you are "Eeeewing" Gay women perving on each other.

*absolutely flabbergasted*

I specified IMMEDIATELY in my post that I was talking about being "perved on"--I used the word "ogled" because to me that means the same thing, eyes but no physical assault--in a dressing room.

Eeeew. That's just distasteful to me... I don't wish to be ogled in a dressing room by ANYONE, nor do I wish to ogle anyone.

Gay Women of any stripe are certainly free to perv on anyone they please at any time they please, but Amelia had been talking about being assaulted by men in a dressing room, and how important it was to her that her privacy not be invaded---and so I thought about dressing rooms, and all the children, teens, straight women in them when I have used them, in the context of being assaulted and having one's privacy invaded.

I'm sorry it wasn't more clear in my post that I was talking about having my privacy invaded--being "perved on" in a dressing room--but yanno, since the specification "in a dressing room" was part of the same sentence, I dunno how to make it any more clear.

My apologies to anyone who was offended.

[Bit]

I am sorry that my thoughts were taken that way. I am sorry you were bothered by the way I worded my thoughts. I was not saying gay women or men DO perv on each other but was thinking so logically that I did not realize it may cause uncomfort to anyone. I was actually thinking about my own feelings in said "female" bathrooms and dressing rooms. I am so sorry to be in there that I think it shows to the others in there. I look down a lot in the bathrooms or away from people coming in and out.



{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Amelia}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

You don't owe me any apologies, sweetheart. It was very obvious that you were following a logical line of thought, and you were correct; society is very quick to keep men and women separated in dressing rooms as if we are all heterosexual.

Just because you said something that I responded to with discomfort doesn't mean that you did anything wrong---nor does it mean that I thought YOU believed it was okay. I completely understood that you were being logical, and analyzing the situation, and that it bothered you too.

I hope you understand that. You did not attack or hurt me in any way--you just happened to say something that pushed a big button for me. I'm sorry if my response made you feel bad in any way; I didn't intend it to.

[Dragonfly]

I just want to be specific here so I am not misunderstood.

I am not afraid of being assaulted in a bathroom or dressing room by men. I have been sexually assaulted by both male and female genders. I do not think all males are a danger to me, so I hope no one here is thinking that was my point.

I was speaking generally about everyone's privacy and the way society views protecting that privacy by separating genders and not by sexuality. I wasn't speaking about my own privacy as much as I was speaking about addressing the gender separation being FLAWED.

I know of one bio male for sure that uses stalls because he doesn't like anyone to see his parts. I don't think the female gender is the only feelings to be considered with this topic. Males do not like to be objectified and they need and deserve privacy too! I know men who will not even fart around a woman. These types def do NOT want females in the bathroom when they "go".

But I use the men's bathroom and dressing rooms as I please. It depends on how I am dressed that day, it really does. Like I already said, it's usually the little ole ladies that I try not to upset. So far no one has stopped me. Laughed or whispered yeah. But I have never had a lady drag their kid out of the men's restroom cause I was in there. That has happened in the ladies room. I really know how you felt Jess in that moment. Queer does NOT = child molester!

Gender separation is done for the purpose of privacy and safety, but if someone who is sexually attracted to one gender is in the same rooms as that gender... well logically it seems to defeat the purpose anyway. I was just musing how it could be solved socially world wide that would be accepted by hetero and queer cultures... as well as be non discriminating about gender Id's.

Perving is eww. I wish I had worded that sentence differently, (or combined the woman man statement as one sentence) . Without the sentence that followed it, I can see where someone would be offended by Bit responding eww if only that sentence is quoted. As Medusa specified, its ok to say eww about perving. Its the post as a whole that may cause hurt feelings if only one gender is what you say eww about.

I think Medusa just wanted to make the point that It isn't ok to say woman on woman restroom perving is eww and not include the men on men bathroom perving too because those statements were wrote together... to be less discriminating in general. That was why I wrote about both together. And when you specify "That one line really bothers me" and quote only the woman on woman part... well it can be even more offensive.

I am sure Bit didn't mean that post to be like this at all...so please everyone remember that there has been some hurt feelings around BF community that makes some feel unwelcome or think that others are saying they dont belong at BF sites ... Some things you just don't say in public, or you word it positive not negative. No one minds when you simply say I am into... but I am not into....

And if ya'll wanna say eww I would be soo grossed out if Amelia were to come on to me, I wouldnt care one little bit. BUT same person saying the same thing about one of my friends would get a defensive reaction out of me. I am not offended being told I am not someone's type. I AM offended when someone causes pain to the community in general.

[BullDog]

Amelia, I think you made some really great points about the way public spaces such as restrooms and dressing rooms assume 2 genders and that people are heterosexual, which is so not the case and causes lots of confusion and difficulty.

Unfortunately the reality is that a majority of violent crimes are committed by men against women. Of course there are women who can physically assault women or men as well as men who can assault other men, but these do not occur as frequently. So women in places like public restrooms or dressing rooms can feel uncomfortable if they perceive men in the room. I do understand this.

As a female I can also feel uncomfortable in dressing rooms with lots of men in them. When I am feeling uncomfortable I will carry my clothes over to the womens dressing room. I don't use Mens restrooms. I was a custodian in college for a few summers, and no offense to anyone but I would prefer to never see the inside of a Mens restroom ever again. To me the cleanliness factor between the two was no comparison.

I myself tend to be the most uncomfortable around young males, especially when they are in groups, because they are the ones who have hassled me the most. It doesn't mean all young males are bad.

I don't usually get hassled in public restrooms. I am perceived to be female most of the time, although not always. Awhile ago I had gone to the barbershop to get my hair cut. Then I wanted to get lunch. As I was going into the restaurant a group of people was going in. One was an elderly woman in a walker. After I had ordered my lunch I went to use the restroom. I always use the Womens. It was a small bathroom with 2 stalls. After I was behind the stall, I noticed someone came in. I could see the walker. I tried to get out of the bathroom as soon as I could just to make sure I would not startle an elderly woman in a walker in case I confused her. I was not trying to be ageist or anything. For all I know she could have turned around and said, "nice haircut." But I didn't want to make anyone uncomfortable in a small public space so I got out as soon as I could. So I do try to be aware that in some situations I might make someone uncomfortable in female spaces because I am not the typical female they might be expecting.

There are some unisex bathrooms where I live, but they are one stall like in some restaurants. I do use them when they are available.

Bit, thank you for participating in the thread. To me it was clear it was the perving you were uncomfortable with, not gay women. You said ANYONE.

Jess, yes I think as females we have some of the same issues that femmes have and that is one of the reasons I started the thread, so we could all talk together. I have also had parents physically pull their children farther away from me in public. I love children, so yeah that is hurtful to me.

Thank you everyone who is participating in the thread. I look forward to more good convo. :)

[Bit]

I'm going to try one more time, and if it still isn't clear, I'll drop it.

We were talking about the discomfort of being naked in a semi-public place. We were talking about being "perved on"--in other words, ogled in a sexual manner while we are naked in a semi-public place--by strangers. We were talking about privacy.

The context was dressing rooms, so I thought about the dressing rooms I have used. I've almost never used an empty women's dressing room; they've almost always been teeming with children, teens, and women I have presumed were straight. I seldom see anyone I can recognize as a fellow queer in a dressing room.

When Amelia followed the logical path of the discussion and talked about how dressing rooms are segregated for sexual safety, but society turns a blind eye on having queers use same sex dressing rooms, she said in an ironic way--and I did catch the irony--"Gay Women can perve on each other."

Two things. The first is that I immediately identified as a Gay Woman being perved on. Otherwise, WHY would I have any kind of reaction, right?

The second is, all those children, teens and straight women flashed into my mind, and I want N-O-T-H-I-N-G to do with "perving on" any of them. I don't want that idea anywhere near me. It is distasteful in the extreme to me. It is the specter of "perverted queers" and pedophilia. My reaction to that is ALWAYS going to be "get it AWAY from me NOW."

I personally do not want to BE perved on, nor do I ever want to be ASSOCIATED IN ANY WAY with perving on another person--ANY PERSON--in a dressing room. That is completely and utterly distasteful to me.

In this context--and I emphasize that, IN THIS CONTEXT--"perving on" someone is not looking at a picture posted for public consumption in a gallery and smiling. In this context, "perving on" someone else is looking at their naked body with non-consensual sexual intent; it is an invasion of their privacy. That kind of sexual invasion is completely and utterly distasteful to me, no matter who does it. I do not want to be associated with it in any way.

[Jett]

Alright then... what was the thread about? ;)

Yeah I really don't have an issue about which dressing room I use... until I read this thread I guess I didn't realize I don't really think about it. But now I'm thinking how it doesn't seem terribly fair that I feel I have the right to use the mens at my leisure... but then would take issue with a run of the mill straight male wanting to use the female rooms.

Though gay women in there obviously doesn't skiv me at all... interesting but it makes sense because I know (for me) it has everything to do with history.

[gaymer]

being female-bodied means i am more often than not mistaken for being a woman. and therefore a "she". and not the "he" i am.

being female means i have to deal with my vagina. i bleed. gawd, i HATE bleeding. i have to go to the gyno.

being female means i have to deal with my chest even though i wish it was flat. i guess i could change this. i have thought about it. and i dont do it for several reasons: i am not a male or a man and dont want to be assumed for one, i have had that part of my body all my life- what if i miss it?, major surgery freaks me out. eventually i will have to have a mamogram.

it's interesting... when i dream about myself and my body... my chest is always flat and my genital area is always a weird fog.

i love having a vagina for the pleasure i receive from it. i love being fisted. i regulary use my vibrator. i do not enjoy receiving oral sex except for every once in a great while and then it's usually pretty quick experience. i love getting fucked by dicks and fists. i HATE just a finger pokin me. i LOVE the way my strap hits my parts when i am fucking someone with my dick.

[CherylNYC]

I just want to be specific here so I am not misunderstood.

I am not afraid of being assaulted in a bathroom or dressing room by men. I have been sexually assaulted by both male and female genders. I do not think all males are a danger to me, so I hope no one here is thinking that was my point.

I was speaking generally about everyone's privacy and the way society views protecting that privacy by separating genders and not by sexuality. I wasn't speaking about my own privacy as much as I was speaking about addressing the gender separation being FLAWED. .


Can someone please explain why gender separation is flawed? I find it imperative to my safety and comfort to use public fitting rooms and women's bathrooms with multiple stalls without the risk that a man may intrude. I require women's space for the same reasons I have always required it. Those reasons include privacy, but that's only one part of the equation. Do I feel unsafe in closed quarters when men are present? You bet I do. Am I a frail, delicate person who lives in fear? Ha! You would have to have met me to know why that's such an outrageously funny thought.

I live and work in the real world. I work with huge men, often well over 6' tall and very well fed, who congratulate themselves for not having assaulted the women in their lives, ("Hey, I'm a good guy. I never even hit her!"). These men sometimes need to be told that it's not OK to use racial slurs. One fairly large man was recently thrown off the job for assaulting a cleaning woman in the bathroom. Many of us agreed that he would have faced NO REPERCUSSIONS had that happened even as recently as a decade ago. Are these the people that I'm supposed to feel comfortable with in a room where they are exposing their penises and my pants are down? When I hear people in my community calling for erasure of gendered bathrooms I want to ask them whether they're crazy or just naive. My friends who work in academia can theorize about gender from the luxury of their libraries. I don't have that option.

I've heard about and seen men direct their most potent sexual aggression against masculine women. Butches are perceived as gender transgressors and have been the object of violence and sexual violence as a result. I have no trouble imagining some of my co-workers feeling a need to show a trangressively masculine woman that she's still a woman after all, and that he can still violate her. This is one important way in which our female bodies, no matter whether those bodies belong to very feminine or very masculine people, put us at similar risk. I'm mystified about why a masculine, female bodied person would invite the risk of men's sexual aggression by sharing really vulnerable space, such as bathrooms, with them. Am I the only person here who has to deal with male sexual aggression, or is it just so common that no one else feels the need to mention it?

Bathrooms and fitting rooms are traditional common, recognised women's spaces, but there are some other really important venues. For instance, what about girls' and women's sports? If you attempt to erase gender separation from sports you will only erase women from sports. Period. Perhaps this won't be as obvious to anyone who is too young to have played girl's sports, or tried to, in the U.S. before Title 9. Take my word for it. It's better now. Unless a person is born intersexed, a female body no matter how masculine, will be unlikely to be competitive with a male body in most competitive sports. There will always be exceptions. I was competitive with boys when I ran on their track teams before Title 9, but that was very rare. This is another place where we, butch and femme, are the same. Sports are played with bodies. Female bodies are different than male bodies. Like it or not, that's due to naturally occurring physical size and hormones.

So, at the risk of derailing this fine thread, why is gender separation flawed?

[Jess]

Thanks Cheryl for a great point of view. I guess when I was first reading the bathroom/ changing room issue, I was thinking more about the discomfort I feel ( and impose upon) other women in these spaces and not necessarily the discomfort and risk involved in sharing such a private space with men.

I appreciate the chance to remember that yes, I DO feel threatened in vulnerable spaces with men.

There is no easy answer or quick fix. I will just continue the Kegel exercises and try to keep holding it..LOL!

Good to see you posting here!

[BullDog]

Thank you Cheryl and Jess. I feel the same way Jess does. I am usually thinking about comfort level more than danger level, but if I think about it more I do need to be careful. I don't use Mens bathrooms, but I will use a Mens changing room if it's not too crowded and I am feeling ok about it. Otherwise I carry my clothes to the Womens dept.

Anyone can be a good person. Anyone can physically or sexually assault someone. However, the fact of the matter is a majority of these types of crimes are committed by men against women. So it would be naive and dangerous to just all of sudden do away with all gendered public spaces, in my opinion. We need to work on the underlying issues and what is causing people to be potentially unsafe in the first place. I do like unisex for bathrooms that are one stall. That's only feasible for small public spaces.

I also do try and be aware that if someone does mistake me for male (usually only very temporary) that I do what I can to make them feel at ease. If a woman thinks a male is a woman's space the gut reaction might be fear. People definitely have narrow definitions of what a woman or female looks like or is, and it can be hurtful and uncomfortable to us to feel we can't even pee out in public, but women do need to be cautious around males they don't know. If they don't know you and don't know you are a woman/female they are likely to be wary. They have good reason to be.

[Jett]

I totally agree with your line of thinking Cheryl... I don't think gender separation is flawed, I think it's crucial some gender spaces remain separate. The separating by sexuality doesn't fly with me because though sure same sex "abuse" does happen... when's the last time anyone's heard of a lesbian rapist terrorizing the women of a city? So I'll be honest whenever I hear that retort that "it's not just the men who are violent" I feel like flipping the bird and walking because that's really splitting hairs it's finest and feels dismissive to the plight of violence against women by men, like blowing off something that needs more awareness not downplay.

That said, I've used the mens john, and mens changing room as I said I don't think about that last one as it's the dept. I'm shopping in. I need to start thinking though, masculine or not the implications for a female in that space are be the same. I think similar to Bull and Jess I've been more thinking comfort level, because when I do use the womens room(s) I do feel like I may startle or make someone uncomfortable though it's usually only for a moment. But bottom line it certainly doesn't make me personally uncomfortable for my own sake to be in or use female only spaces but it does in mens.

And as it's been said I don't feel "afraid", but I do feel very "aware" when I'm in men's spaces or men are in certain spaces, and I don't think you have to be afraid to be smart about controlling those cross interactions whenever possible. I don't think I can justify using the mens anything room at this point, for what end? That I don't make someone do a double take at me and then the sign on the door? They almost always have the "aha" moment anyway and we all survive the 10 second ordeal.

Thanks for making me re-think...
Metro

[BullDog]

Yes Cheryl, Jess and Metro's posts are definitely making me think about things more. I do think butches are so used to tuning out some of the reactions from people around us (stares, comments etc) that we sometimes may overlook our own safety. That isn't always the case, but I know I can be pretty oblivious at times. I have noticed when I am with femme(s) or straight women that they seem to be more hyper aware of safety issues and the environment around them than I am. I do think as butches we tend to tune some things out sometimes. Then again, other butches might have been subjected to a lot more dangerous situations than I have and be a lot more on guard and aware.

I think Metro also makes a good point that if a butch's presence is only likely to cause maybe a 10 second double take, it shouldn't cause us to feel like we can't be in a woman's space, particularly if we are looking out for our own safety as we as comfort zone.

[DapperButch]

Yes Cheryl, Jess and Metro's posts are definitely making me think about things more. I do think butches are so used to tuning out some of the reactions from people around us (stares, comments etc) that we sometimes may overlook our own safety. That isn't always the case, but I know I can be pretty oblivious at times. I have noticed when I am with femme(s) or straight women that they seem to be more hyper aware of safety issues and the environment around them than I am. I do think as butches we tend to tune some things out sometimes. Then again, other butches might have been subjected to a lot more dangerous situations than I have and be a lot more on guard and aware.

I think Metro also makes a good point that if a butch's presence is only likely to cause maybe a 10 second double take, it shouldn't cause us to feel like we can't be in a woman's space, particularly if we are looking out for our own safety as we as comfort zone.

All good points, Bulldog (and Met). Thanks for this.

[Darth Denkay]

I feel infinitely safer in the men's room instead of the women's room. I can't go in a women's room without, at the least, stares and angry looks. More times than not hateful things are said. Now, all of this I could handle. But I've been verbally and physically threatened, pulled out twice by security. The women's room does not feel safe to me.

I have never - and I do mean never - had even a sliver of trouble using the men's room. It seems as though men go in the restroom, do their thing, don't talk or look at anyone, and leave. Women go in and tend to look at others there. Because of the odd phenomenon of women going to the restroom in herds there are often folks hanging around inside waiting for their friends, carrying on conversations. Also, women spend time in there primping and such. It seems as though it's pretty much a guarantee that in the women's room someone will look at me and I will be hassled to some degree while in the men's room no one pays a bit of attention. For me, the men's restroom feels safer than the women's restroom.

I've heard about and seen men direct their most potent sexual aggression against masculine women. Butches are perceived as gender transgressors and have been the object of violence and sexual violence as a result. I have no trouble imagining some of my co-workers feeling a need to show a trangressively masculine woman that she's still a woman after all, and that he can still violate her. This is one important way in which our female bodies, no matter whether those bodies belong to very feminine or very masculine people, put us at similar risk. I'm mystified about why a masculine, female bodied person would invite the risk of men's sexual aggression by sharing really vulnerable space, such as bathrooms, with them. Am I the only person here who has to deal with male sexual aggression, or is it just so common that no one else feels the need to mention it?

[Stoney]

I see alot of this is about changing room restroom stuff but it all got me thinking ..so I hope Im not too far off subject.

for a really long time I honestly felt almost genderless, I mean I weighed over 400 lbs not many people felt comfortable around me
and I was either completely ignored or whispered about... always the same ( is that a man or a woman..??) I think they were wishing I'd choose a bathroom or changing room just to satisfy their curiosity.
Now that I have lost weight it is a lot different, men are either completely rude, and on the defense or they want me to meet their wife....it is kinda creepy.
I forget sometimes that I look different to people now, and I am no longer "invisible"
"visible" Sometimes feels like "vulnerable" and I dont really like that , so I have to sometimes cut back on the friendly smiles and pointless conversations with men who now readily recognize with a double take I am female.

So yeah ,
I have had some issues. I do Identify as female, always have but no body really seemed to notice that much till I lost all this weight.

[BullDog]

Stoney, thank you for your post. No you are not off topic at all. All subjects on being female bodied (present or past) and how we relate to or experience them from all genders is welcomed. :)

[Soon]

Want to Participate in Updating “Our Bodies, Ourselves”? (http://www.ourbodiesourblog.org/blog/2010/01/want-to-participate-in-updating-our-bodies-ourselves)

[BullDog]

Want to Participate in Updating “Our Bodies, Ourselves”? (http://www.ourbodiesourblog.org/blog/2010/01/want-to-participate-in-updating-our-bodies-ourselves)

HowSoonIsNow, thank you so much for posting this. Our Bodies Ourselves has been such an important book and project for so many women. The book first came out in 1973 I believe.

They appear to trying to be as inclusive as possible:

"We are seeking the experience and wisdom of heterosexual, lesbian, bisexual and queer women. Perspectives from single women are encouraged, and you may define relationship as it applies to you, from monogamy to multiple partners. We are committed to including women of color, women with disabilities, trans women and women of many ages and backgrounds."

I can't wait for the new edition to come out.

[Dragonfly]

I wanted to respond to the really great points made about placing oneself in a dangerous situation for the sake of someone else's comfort. I dont think anyone should sacrifice their safety or feeling safe to make someone else feel comfortable. We shouldn't as a community promote that sort of mentality because we are not what is "wrong"... the discrimination is wrong.

I had tried to shorten my post and left out a few details about when I choose to use a men's restroom. For one, I never ever sit in any restroom or touch anything so if its dirty I dont really care. If a lady were to look under the door and see my feet she may think it is proof I am a man in there. Plus, I wash real well afterwards lol.

Also the men's dressing room is often a one stall and the womens is often multi stalled where I tend to shop.

Because of the issues I have struggled with, the fact that I am ever alone and vulnerable is a huge triumph for me. I wear men's clothes because they are concealing certain clothing layers that reduce the chances of my being raped. I do not need to remind myself I never stop thinking about how that I am never going to be 100% safe from an assault for being and looking like I do. So More often than not I carry a conceled weapon that would actually cause me more trouble should I too get dragged from the ladies room by security.

With the PTSD that I struggled with for 2 decades now I have evolved alongside very loyal men, and am rarely alone when going into those restrooms. I am usually with Foo or another friend when I am out and about. I am firends with a 90/10 ratio of gendered bio males over Queer or hetero bio females. Yeah Men are bigger than me, some of my girlfriends were bigger than me too. Last year I dated a line backer chick who could toss me over her shoulder and throw me around. lol. Safety in numbers feels safer to me but to some people safe is different things. I need to be safe from persecution and searches because I revolve my life around living with and recovering the best I can. So sometimes I personally choose the less likely risk of another attack, especially in a public restroom when I am usually accompanied everywhere I go anyway, over the daily rubbing in my face how disgusting I am to society to dress so masculine yet be so obviously female bodied. I could only pass for male back in the 80's when my skater friends had long hair and flannels too... And then only from a distance,



My daughter believes society will catch up as soon as the asshats die off. Then all that is left is a majority rule of acceptance generations. I hope so too...

[Dragonfly]

It so sucked. I hate having to go to those sections and get the look. No more malls, I'll stick to the cheaper places.

[BornBronson]

I guess you could say i've learned to love my female body,but it wasn't always like that.My teenage years were the worst.I've always dressed in men clothes,not that I ever wanted to be a man it's just that my body was never made to wear a dress.I have muscular shoulders and no ass.I would not look good in anything that was made for the female body,trust me.God gave me this body and it is who i am.I could not think of ever destroying something so beautiful.Yes,I think my body is hot.I'm 5'9 and 210lbs and have a husky body,partly due to a lot of weightlifting throughout the years.And that's also why I get called sir or mister a lot.I buy mens clothes everytime.I don't have a problem using a woman's bathroom today because I have let my hair grow long,the ladies still turn their heads,but I don't feel the need to clear my throat anymore.But I never get a second glance if I use the men's restroom,which I still use in an emergency only.Never wore make-up,plus it won't look right on my face..it just won't.In other words i'm comfortable in this old body of mine.I don't have a problem being called she,her,or woman...it is what i am.:pipe:

[apretty]

do you think that your weight and identity are related, do you think that your body size and gender are connected? just wondering--you must go through/or have gone through body-size dysmorphia (as a result of your large weight loss) and some butches i have known also have a degree of body dysmorphia--and i was wondering if, at all do you think that your size (then or now) and gender are interconnected?

I see alot of this is about changing room restroom stuff but it all got me thinking ..so I hope Im not too far off subject.

for a really long time I honestly felt almost genderless, I mean I weighed over 400 lbs not many people felt comfortable around me
and I was either completely ignored or whispered about... always the same ( is that a man or a woman..??) I think they were wishing I'd choose a bathroom or changing room just to satisfy their curiosity.
Now that I have lost weight it is a lot different, men are either completely rude, and on the defense or they want me to meet their wife....it is kinda creepy.
I forget sometimes that I look different to people now, and I am no longer "invisible"
"visible" Sometimes feels like "vulnerable" and I dont really like that , so I have to sometimes cut back on the friendly smiles and pointless conversations with men who now readily recognize with a double take I am female.

So yeah ,
I have had some issues. I do Identify as female, always have but no body really seemed to notice that much till I lost all this weight.

[Greyson]

do you think that your weight and identity are related, do you think that your body size and gender are connected? just wondering--you must go through/or have gone through body-size dysmorphia (as a result of your large weight loss) and some butches i have known also have a degree of body dysmorphia--and i was wondering if, at all do you think that your size (then or now) and gender are interconnected?

Would you be willing to talk more on the concept of body-size dysmorphia? I am somewhat new attempting to understand the places in myself where my gender, my size, my weight losses and gains may intersect and what it means.

[Soon]

Want to Participate in Updating “Our Bodies, Ourselves”? (http://www.ourbodiesourblog.org/blog/2010/01/want-to-participate-in-updating-our-bodies-ourselves)

Quoting myself b/c AtLast was so kind to rep me about it! Thank you!

[Soon]

Would you be willing to talk more on the concept of body-size dysmorphia? I am somewhat new attempting to understand the places in myself where my gender, my size, my weight losses and gains may intersect and what it means.


Don't want to lose sight of these important questions/issues either that are related to previous posts.

[AtLast]

I just found this thread and find it extremely interesting and informative about all of us that are a part of this wonderfully diverse community. I have to go back to the beginning and read all the posts... just can't right now (and there is a lot to take in). Thanks, Bully for starting this discussion!

Something funny that has struck me though (just about bathroom/dressing room posts), is that I drive around town in a RV type van that has a bathroom fairly often. My tension over using a public restroom has been cut in half or more! Although, it really doesn't bother me as much as it used to, I will just use my bathroom in stead of dealing with all of the nonsense that we (butches- all of we butches) sometimes do.

[Stoney]

do you think that your weight and identity are related, do you think that your body size and gender are connected? just wondering--you must go through/or have gone through body-size dysmorphia (as a result of your large weight loss) and some butches i have known also have a degree of body dysmorphia--and i was wondering if, at all do you think that your size (then or now) and gender are interconnected?

Oh Yes Absolutely apretty.

I think my size had a lot to do with how I identified ....
I used to wonder , in all honesty whether or not It was more of a conscious and deliberate choice to be a lesbian and not necessarily a physiological one. I have been very open with friends in here and on other threads about my past as a young woman and also about issues of sexual abuse.
from the time I as a little girl I had always devised way to protect myself, from going around picking fights, bullying people, putting on a front. I lifted weights, I got big, way too big "for a girl"( per others) in a muscular way.
I realize now this was a way of protecting myself from abusers. When I was 17 I spent 14 months in prison, which btw was actually a safer environment than I had come from. When I got out , I tried like hell to feminize myself but found out I didnt know how to live that way without feeling vunerable. But going around kicking peoples asses puts you in jail. so...

When I was 20 I married a kind and gentle man, and had 3 kids, we were married less than 4 years and divorced. Within months I was pregnant again, and in a relationship with an alcoholic who was abusive to me. I weighed around 190 or so which really wasnt overweight for me because of the weight lifting.
but.....it didnt help me fight back, this Man could easily kick my ass, humilitate me into not fighting back,make me feel small , helpless and weak, all my abuse was brought up often, like" if you werent such a whore, you wouldnt have had all these problems. I remember getting choked and hit in the face cause someone asked me to dance while he was in the bathroom at a bar. I used to have long hair, and I wore make up, I cut my hair and stopped trying to make myself more attractive to men, I gained over 100 lbs. It was around that time that I started remembering and dealing with my past, childhood sexual abuse.
when I got big enough to kick his ass and got tired of being called a dyke, I finally left that relationship, and sought to heal myself. I weighed around 300 had 4 kids and was a full time single mom.
It took a long time , but when the real me began to emerge I was bitter and angry with men in general, I looked deeply into feminism and Herstory, and for the first time faced my feelings about men.... and women.
When I was inside, I had secrets no one ever knew about my relationships with other girls. I honestly could not think of them as lesbian actions , I thought I was just really messed up, a sexual pervert, and never spoke a word about my attraction or what I had done with other girls. In fact for years I felt my life was messed up cause of that deep dark secret.......

When I left that relationship finally, I never again had anything to do with men. I began to facilitate groups for childhood sexual abuse and Disociative Identity Disorder. and help survivors through their pain, within a few years I came out, full blown ''butch'' lesbian.

I have never really thought in my case "Being Butch" is a gender, It is a description more or less about my mannerisms.

I actually gained the rest of my weight ( up to over 450) after a medical mistake long after I had come out gay.

I do think getting bigger was a way of protecting myself, making myself less attractive to men, so yes I feel it had to do with gender in that respect.

Now... I weigh 160. It feels linda like Im in a snow storm in a nylon jacket ( in the literal sense as well as metaphorically)

I am thankful I spent the many years I did on myself healing from the abuse, learning how to stand up for myself and others. I am solid and strong with who I am today, I work out now not to get big, but to become healthy . I still have the mind set of the 400lb womon and it doesnt just go away. I notice the attention of men now where I didnt before and I am trying to not be so mean to them, it doesnt take much for my mouth to overide my ass these days.
I actually might post a thing I wrote a while back on gender and weight ect... It's been A while since I read it but if it pertains I will.

It has been a challenge accepting my body at this size, it is scary sometimes, it is hard to believe people who say i am attractive, girls scare me now a little too, i am careful to not be so suspicious of flirts etc...its still hard for me to believe i am attractive to others physically but....
http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/%3Ca%20href=%22http://s190.photobucket.com/albums/z141/sagewitch/?action=view&current=hospital.jpg%22%20target=%22_blank%22%3E%3 Cimg%20src=%22http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z141/sagewitch/hospital.jpg%22%20border=%220%22%20alt=%22Alive%20 and%20living%22%3E%3C/a%3E


it feels sooooo great to finally be healthy after so many years of pain and illness.

peace,
Stoney

[Stoney]

I tried to post a picture but I didnt do it right or something... I put it in the galley Ill leave it up for a little bit. my before and aftershttp://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/%3Ca%20href=%22http://s190.photobucket.com/albums/z141/sagewitch/?action=view&current=hospital.jpg%22%20target=%22_blank%22%3E%3 Cimg%20src=%22http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z141/sagewitch/hospital.jpg%22%20border=%220%22%20alt=%22Alive%20 and%20living%22%3E%3C/a%3E

[apretty]

Oh Yes Absolutely apretty.

I think my size had a lot to do with how I identified ....
I used to wonder , in all honesty whether or not It was more of a conscious and deliberate choice to be a lesbian and not necessarily a physiological one. I have been very open with friends in here and on other threads about my past as a young woman and also about issues of sexual abuse.
from the time I as a little girl I had always devised way to protect myself, from going around picking fights, bullying people, putting on a front. I lifted weights, I got big, way too big "for a girl"( per others) in a muscular way.
I realize now this was a way of protecting myself from abusers. When I was 17 I spent 14 months in prison, which btw was actually a safer environment than I had come from. When I got out , I tried like hell to feminize myself but found out I didnt know how to live that way without feeling vunerable. But going around kicking peoples asses puts you in jail. so...

When I was 20 I married a kind and gentle man, and had 3 kids, we were married less than 4 years and divorced. Within months I was pregnant again, and in a relationship with an alcoholic who was abusive to me. I weighed around 190 or so which really wasnt overweight for me because of the weight lifting.
but.....it didnt help me fight back, this Man could easily kick my ass, humilitate me into not fighting back,make me feel small , helpless and weak, all my abuse was brought up often, like" if you werent such a whore, you wouldnt have had all these problems. I remember getting choked and hit in the face cause someone asked me to dance while he was in the bathroom at a bar. I used to have long hair, and I wore make up, I cut my hair and stopped trying to make myself more attractive to men, I gained over 100 lbs. It was around that time that I started remembering and dealing with my past, childhood sexual abuse.
when I got big enough to kick his ass and got tired of being called a dyke, I finally left that relationship, and sought to heal myself. I weighed around 300 had 4 kids and was a full time single mom.
It took a long time , but when the real me began to emerge I was bitter and angry with men in general, I looked deeply into feminism and Herstory, and for the first time faced my feelings about men.... and women.
When I was inside, I had secrets no one ever knew about my relationships with other girls. I honestly could not think of them as lesbian actions , I thought I was just really messed up, a sexual pervert, and never spoke a word about my attraction or what I had done with other girls. In fact for years I felt my life was messed up cause of that deep dark secret.......

When I left that relationship finally, I never again had anything to do with men. I began to facilitate groups for childhood sexual abuse and Disociative Identity Disorder. and help survivors through their pain, within a few years I came out, full blown ''butch'' lesbian.

I have never really thought in my case "Being Butch" is a gender, It is a description more or less about my mannerisms.

I actually gained the rest of my weight ( up to over 450) after a medical mistake long after I had come out gay.

I do think getting bigger was a way of protecting myself, making myself less attractive to men, so yes I feel it had to do with gender in that respect.

Now... I weigh 160. It feels linda like Im in a snow storm in a nylon jacket ( in the literal sense as well as metaphorically)

I am thankful I spent the many years I did on myself healing from the abuse, learning how to stand up for myself and others. I am solid and strong with who I am today, I work out now not to get big, but to become healthy . I still have the mind set of the 400lb womon and it doesnt just go away. I notice the attention of men now where I didnt before and I am trying to not be so mean to them, it doesnt take much for my mouth to overide my ass these days.
I actually might post a thing I wrote a while back on gender and weight ect... It's been A while since I read it but if it pertains I will.

It has been a challenge accepting my body at this size, it is scary sometimes, it is hard to believe people who say i am attractive, girls scare me now a little too, i am careful to not be so suspicious of flirts etc...its still hard for me to believe i am attractive to others physically but....
http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/%3Ca%20href=%22http://s190.photobucket.com/albums/z141/sagewitch/?action=view&current=hospital.jpg%22%20target=%22_blank%22%3E%3 Cimg%20src=%22http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z141/sagewitch/hospital.jpg%22%20border=%220%22%20alt=%22Alive%20 and%20living%22%3E%3C/a%3E


it feels sooooo great to finally be healthy after so many years of pain and illness.

peace,
Stoney

this was super amazingly brave, thank you.

i totally get the conscious and deliberate choice thing--i think it's valid to make that choice, i can *relate* to making the choice to be queer. i am absolutely skeptical of a hetero man's ability to know my *life*, being raised female in this society--and i *need* that understanding to fully love someone and allow them to love the authentic me. i want the most equality that i can achieve in a relationship and i don't believe a hetero man could (temporarily) shrug off his privilege and support but not patronize and love but not power-over me. (i could probably say this better after another cup of coffee)

either way, thank you for your response.

also, have you read, 'fat is a feminist issue' ? i mean i think it's important to consider what it is to be female-bodied and take up space--and *butch* space would seem to be even more threatening to the power-structure.

like i said, more coffee needed--but those are some preliminary thoughts. :)

[BullDog]

Thank you so much for your very open and honest post Stoney.

peace my friend,
Bully