Top Surgery for Butches: Have you thought about it?

[Cin]

I saw the discussion in the other thread and I wanted to join in but I agree it might be better here.

I’ve struggled with this issue for years. I know having top surgery would align my body with my vision of it. It’s always a surprise when I look in the mirror. I tossed around breast reduction but every time I think about it I know my idea of reduction is removal. I see myself as a woman, I identify as female and I use the pronoun she. But I don’t see myself as a woman who has breasts.

[BullDog]

Yes I have. I too have thought about breast reduction, but I always go back to preferring chest surgery. I am a stone butch and I think it would be very freeing sexually and physically (in terms of aligning my body) for me to not have breasts. It has nothing to do with not wanting to be "feminized." I just do not see myself as having breasts or wanting them touched while being intimate.

I am a stone butch, female and woman. I am She and comfortable having a female body. My butch cock is a natural extension of myself and I do not like having breasts. Everything else about being female I am comfortable with.

They also feel quite top heavy to me, like I am out of balance. Also, breasts do not work well with men's shirts, which is what I wear.

The only hesitation I would have is I do not want to pass as male. I do not think I would even with chest surgery. I do get called Sir quite a bit, but it is only for brief moments for the most part. Children often think I am male. I think I look like a butch and would even without breasts. I am not sure. I know a lot of people will look down to a butch's breasts to figure that out, which of course is quite uncomfortable.

Other thing I wonder about is age and also not being at the weight I want to be before surgery. Dapper in the other thread said he didn't think age would be an issue, so that was good to know.

One other thing I don't know if there would be any issues with a surgeon if you are not FTM. Is there anything they would need to know or understand. I figure the surgery would be the same whether it was part of a transition process/someone identifying male or for someone like me but I really am not sure. I haven't ever looked into surgeons because I do not have the money, but I do think about having chest surgery a lot.

I am glad Dapper posted hys info in the Trans zone and thank you Miss Tick for starting this thread.

[Cin]

BullDog mentioned wondering if there would be an issue with a surgeon if one was not FTM. I too have wondered that and also never checked into it because I would never be able to afford to pay for an elective surgery. I have thought about the medical options that might let a doctor sign off on it as it would be free in Montreal. But breast reduction, if I could convince the doctor the girls gave me a back ache or something, is all I could ever come up with.

I keep thinking I've made my peace with them but then something happens to trigger me and I'm back to hating them. I vacillate between hatred and tolerance. Poor things never get any love from me. Or anyone else if I can help it. I am not stone but I really can't stand to have them touched. Well at the last moment, but the timing has to be right on the money. Including them in the process is just a lot of effort, best to forget about them.

I also feel guilty about not being able to reconcile my feelings about my breasts. I think it's easy to confuse it for wanting to be male. I don't want to be male. For me it has nothing to do with not wanting to be feminized either. I am perfectly happy being a woman as long as I can be the kind of woman that I am comfortable with. And that kind of woman just doesn't like her breasts. They spoil the look of my clothes sometimes. I get all dressed up and think I must look pretty awesome and then I look in the mirror and it's like a slap in the face. I'm like what the fuck are they doing there.

I doubt I will ever have top surgery unless I win the lottery or something. But I do think about how much more comfortable I would be in my body if I could.

[whale]

I have thought about it but then I think about my future life as a parent and I want to breastfeed so there's where I stop thinking about it.

[Kobi]

I am considering breast reduction, (not chest surgery) for neck, shoulder, back issues.

I say breast reduction because I am a female butch who does not have congruency issues between my gender and my body. I like my parts just fine. :)

Insurance does cover the surgery for medical reasons like the above, or GERD, or familiar breast cancer and such. It is worth investigating your insurance for coverage, but, be sure to focus on medical not body issues.

[Cin]

I am a female butch who does not have congruency issues between my gender and my body. I like my parts just fine. :)


That must be nice. I have tried not to have congruency issues because it doesn’t match my idea of who I am as a butch lesbian feminist who is, always has been and always will be a woman aligned with other women in struggle against patriarchy and misogyny. But I can’t deny that my vision of who I am when I imagine myself does not have female breasts.

I like the rest of my body parts just fine though. But the breasts just don't cut it for me. And they often spoil my fashion statement. Making myself put up with them is about the best I can do. I will never be happy with them.

The feeling is a little similar to the one I have surrounding Miss Tick, the name I chose when I joined the Planet. I didn’t think I wanted to use darkgazer, the name I used on the dash site and I thought it might be good for my woman aligned feminist conscience to have a clearly female nic. It sounded good on paper, but I cringe every time I see it and realize hey, that’s me. I don’t like that I feel that way. I don’t like the implications because I don’t believe what is indicated by those implications is a reality for me, even if it seems to be implied (I wrote it and even I am having trouble following this sentence.)

Yet, if there are no implied implications then there is no logical reason for those feelings. Yet here they are.

Wishing for congruity but not even getting logic.

I am a woman, a she, a female and happy to be so, but I don’t like my breasts and I’m not crazy about my name on the planet. Feelings don’t have to make sense. But for the foreseeable future I will keep them both. Or should I say keep them all since it’s two breasts and one name?

[macele]

as a child, i didn't want those things at all! i wanted to be shirtless, happy, and playing with boys. i often thought i'd make a better boy than girl. it took me a lot of time to sort it all out. and then i learned that i am my kind of girl/woman. i'm ok with having breasts. just not this size lol. i am for sure having a reduction some time next year. and that will make me happy to have breasts, not just ok.

but i totally understand what you all are saying. i hope that you all can get what you want. truly. from the bottom of my heart and to the top and sides and all the in betweens, i wish you all happiness.

excellent topic. thank you, Miss Tick.

if i may ask, you won't hurt my feelings if it's private, ... why don't you change your nic name?

[DapperButch]

One other thing I don't know if there would be any issues with a surgeon if you are not FTM. Is there anything they would need to know or understand. I figure the surgery would be the same whether it was part of a transition process/someone identifying male or for someone like me but I really am not sure. I haven't ever looked into surgeons because I do not have the money, but I do think about having chest surgery a lot.

I am glad Dapper posted hys info in the Trans zone and thank you Miss Tick for starting this thread.

Bulldog,

Just to pass along some information. Most surgeons continue to follow the WPATH (World Professional Association for Transgender Health) standards of care, for this surgery. It does not matter how one defines, they would just need a referral from a therapist OR a primary care physician. In September, 2013 the standards changed and one does not have to be FTM, they only have to have "gender dysphoria" (exactly what people are talking about here...a part of their body is not congruent with their birth sex).

This is a wonderful change.

http://www.wpath.org/uploaded_files/140/files/Standards%20of%20Care,%20V7%20Full%20Book.pdf

(page 59 for the criteria for top surgery).

---------------

To respond to your other musing, yes, the surgery would be the same regardless as to how one identifies, but you can have the surgeon adjust some things. For example, I saw a youtube video of a genderqueer person who requested the surgeon make their areolas (the pigmented skin around the nipple), larger than a surgeon typically would for this surgery. Males have smaller areolas than females, and this person wanted their chest to look more androgynous so they requested, and received larger nipples (but, smaller than they originally had, as they would look too big). Additionally, men's nipples are placed more to the sides of the chest than females, which are more centered. With the double incision surgery (the one most people get), the nipples are removed, resized, and then placed on the chest. You could ask your surgeon to place the nipples in a more "female", centered position on the chest. I suppose it depends on the surgeon, but the two I talked with, were open to the above adjustments from what I have seen on others. Every person's chest is different, so one would need to meet with the surgeon to learn what is possible for their particular chest.

I hope the above is helpful and not too long winded!

[Luv]

Hi..I've had a breast reduction ..you can go down to a size A.. My insurance paid for it cause I had some issues with back and neck pain amd found out I had arthritis is my back..but also the indentation on your shoulders from the bra straps or the oily soon underneath that alot of "gifted" women have are also held into account. Make an appointment and ask about a "reduction" because of your back. Mine was medically approved and I got to choose what size I wanted to be.

[Jar]

When I was 20 and long before I had it all figured out, I went to a plastic surgeon and told him I didn't want mine anymore. He said he would almost remove them but wouldn't completely since I was so young. I was happy with the results and I'm glad I had the nerve to go for what I wanted.

[*Anya*]

Hope it is ok for a femme to respond.

My long-term ex had a quite large bust. She hated it because she was butch and because she had grooves in her shoulders from straps.

She found a plastic surgeon that would do it and because of the size, grooves and back issues; had a reduction down to virtually an A--.

She never wore a bra again and they appeared virtually non-existent.

She was extremely happy with the surgery and it was covered by insurance.

[Cin]

Hope it is ok for a femme to respond.

It's awesome for a femme to respond.

I don't like to close myself off from thoughts and ideas. Everyone is always welcome in any thread I start.

[Cin]

if i may ask, you won't hurt my feelings if it's private, ... why don't you change your nic name?

You certainly may ask. Unfortunately I don't think I have an answer that makes sense. It has to do with not feeding into my feelings surrounding a feminine sounding title like Miss for myself. I know I chose it but I didn't expect to feel the way I do. I thought it was a cool name. And I still do, but not for me. Why I won't change it is because I am trying to move past these unfortunate feelings.

Or maybe I'm just crazy and I over think everything.

[CherylNYC]

You certainly may ask. Unfortunately I don't think I have an answer that makes sense. It has to do with not feeding into my feelings surrounding a feminine sounding title like Miss for myself. I know I chose it but I didn't expect to feel the way I do. I thought it was a cool name. And I still do, but not for me. Why I won't change it is because I am trying to move past these unfortunate feelings.

Or maybe I'm just crazy and I over think everything.

Miss Tick- I respect your choices. They're yours to make. That said, I'm sorry you don't feel free to choose a name that you feel would suit you better. Butch women can and do honour their femaleness and females/women everywhere in many ways. Butch women have been at the forefront in our feminist struggles. The increases we've had in gender equality, though not nearly large enough, would not have come about at all without the tireless efforts of butch women who are dedicated feminists. That could be considered selfless activism since the benefits of those moves towards equality often don't reach butches who face a higher level of discrimination just because of how they present. Moreover, butches continually find themselves in harm's way simply by walking in the world as unabashed masculine women in a culture where hyper-femininity in women is overvalued, and the mere existence of female masculinity is considered a direct threat to men. By walking out in the world as the masculine woman that you are, you give women everywhere more freedom to present in the ways that feel right for them. Would I be overcooking this if I said that I think your existence is a daily service to women everywhere? I do feel that way, even if it seems corny.

I think you have enough trouble. This environment at bfp is supposed to be fun and welcoming. Please consider making yourself more comfortable. No one will judge you for it.

Unless you start calling yourself Dudley Do-Right. Then we'll all laugh.

[BullDog]

I am happy femmes are participating in here as well. I would also love to have any trans guys or anyone else here who wants to share their experiences, info or insights with butches considering top surgery.

[girl_dee]

as a femme i would be completely supportive if my partner chose to have top surgery.. also if she does not.

[Cin]

Unless you start calling yourself Dudley Do-Right. Then we'll all laugh.

Thank you for everything you said. i really appreciate it.

You're right it is supposed to be fun and welcoming. I should allow myself to be more comfortable. I'll probably go back to darkgazer. Or maybe I'll come up with something new.

But Dudley Do-Right is off the table.

[CherylNYC]

But Dudley Do-Right is off the table.

Well, I'm glad that's settled.

[macele]

You certainly may ask. Unfortunately I don't think I have an answer that makes sense. It has to do with not feeding into my feelings surrounding a feminine sounding title like Miss for myself. I know I chose it but I didn't expect to feel the way I do. I thought it was a cool name. And I still do, but not for me. Why I won't change it is because I am trying to move past these unfortunate feelings.

Or maybe I'm just crazy and I over think everything.



i like Boston. i'm going to start calling you Boston. yeah, and you better answer! LOL

[Cin]

i like Boston. i'm going to start calling you Boston. yeah, and you better answer! LOL

LOL! That's funny cause years ago when I first posted on the dash site, like 1999 I think it was, I had the nic boston butch. I wandered away and when I came back somebody else had it. I live in Canada now, but Montreal Butch just doesn't have the same ring to it. I'm thinking maybe Titty Baby.

Sorry for the derail.

[imperfect_cupcake]

About half of my partners - who were absolutely fine with being female - thought about it. usually reduction and not removal. just going down to an A cup. Very small. I said "well, I had mine lifted when I was 25 and felt *way* better for it. I'd do it again if I could..."

people get tattoos and bolts put through their penises, so I told them to get the reduction to as small as they wanted. I got mine fixed and tightened up 20 years ago. why shouldn't it be ok to do it the way they want, aesthetically?

[TruTexan]

I'm with Kobi, I don't have any issues with my breasts either. The only thing that bothers me about them at times is they tend to get in the way when I am doing things like working on my truck. LOL
But, if they get any larger from weight gain, now that would make me want to consider losing more weight or getting a size reduction to take the pain off my back, I already have back issues and don't need anymore. Otherwise, I'm alright with them.
I think Ms.Tick is a cute name for a butch woman. ....just sayin.

[Jess]

every.single.day.

If I had a way to afford it, they would be gone in a heartbeat....

[Penelope]

I have been with a FTM who elected to have top surgery (and a hysterectomy) to align his physical body with his mental spirit. He had a referral from a therapist and chose a surgeon in a geographical area that worked for him. It is considered elective, outpatient surgery so he paid for it himself and went to a hotel to recover, where we monitored his healing. On a side note, when he had the hysterectomy, though he identified as FTM and had changed all of his paperwork to reflect male (if I remember correctly), he was still placed on a women's floor to recover and referred to as "she". Some of the nurses made an attempt to change the pronoun once we explained but others didn't get it (we were in Florida for this surgery).

My current partner who does not identify as FTM but like many of you, did not want breasts, chose to have the surgery in Toronto with a plastic surgeon who works with a local cosmetic surgery facility. I felt like they were more accommodating and respectful to us. He does not have gender dysphoria, is too old to bother with a hysterectomy and has no intentions of going on T. We did need some kind of referral which proved to be difficult as he was not seeing a therapist but I think eventually got one from his doctor. He had to pay for it himself as there were no medical reasons for doing so.

[DapperButch]

One thing a number of people I know use in order to get the surgery is CareCredit. I have heard mixed reviews on how easy it is to qualify. Below is the link. You can search your surgeon's name to see if they take it. I believe the way it works is each surgeon has their own individualized payment plan. The plan you get with Dr. Fischer is not the same you would get with Dr. Garramone, for example. Do your research.

http://www.carecredit.com/

In case there is misinformation, the cost of top surgery in the U.S. is $4,000-$8,500 in most cases. That cost is surgeon fees, anesthesiologist fees, and surgery center fees. Interestingly, the costs have remained the same for a number of years, which is positive. As an aside, peri/keyhole procedures tend to cost a bit more than the double incision method.

To my knowledge, the only insurance company that will pay for top surgery remains Aetna. Aetna started paying for it many, many years ago and I am surprised that more insurance companies have not followed suit. Hopefully soon. However, not all surgeons take insurance, either.

[DapperButch]

I have thought about it but then I think about my future life as a parent and I want to breastfeed so there's where I stop thinking about it.

I am not certain, but I think you still may be able to breast feed if you got the peri-areolar or keyhole method. There are no free nipple grafts involved in those procedures, which is the issue with breast feeing. That surgery is only for people who are A cups or VERY small B cups, however.

I think you are smart to pause and try to not let any gender/body dysphoria you may have result in making a decision that could impact your long term life plans. That can be hard to do when we are uncomfortable in our bodies.

----------------------------------------------------------

ETA: To late to add to my post before this one and do not want to post yet another. I wanted to add that Obamacare does not cover the surgery, either.

[Loren_Q]

I'm small breasted, and glad for it. My size doesn't effect how I view myself, but I do think if I were larger breasted it might.

My spouse (also butch) did have issues with her breast size so opted for breast reduction surgery in the 90s. It was covered under insurance because there was a record of back and shoulder pain. The surgeon didn't have an issue going down to an A cup (from a triple D) and that's what she did.

Funny story: Spouse and I were at a conference a couple of weeks before her surgery. I knew 2 of the women there had recently gotten breast reductions and I asked if they would speak to my spouse about their experiences. So the four of us got together, the women explaining their experiences and one said "removed 5 lbs from one and 5-1/2 from the other".

I looked down at my chest thinking "Pounds of breast? 10.5 pounds removed? Crap, I bowl that weight". I've not been able to go bowling since.

[Scots_On_The_Rocks]

I think about it ALL the time. Sadly, finances are such that it will most likely never happen. But yeah, it'd be nice to shed these "Huge...tracts of land" (40DD).

[easygoingfemme]

May I chime in as (tomboy) femme?
I can certainly understand the desire for top surgery, even totally unrelated to gender identification.

I am grateful every day that I am very small up top. I never need to wear more than an undershirt and that's to keep warm. If I was larger I would certainly want them off/reduced greatly. It would be uncomfortable to me physically and emotionally.

[Joness]

Hi Folks,

I have just read through every single one of the replies to this thread. Just wanted to say thank you so much to both Miss Tick for posting and everyone who responded. All so very interesting and informative.

I am considering Top Surgery but for lack of anyone around here to talk to about it and no one who has experience of it, my internal dialogue consists of:

'this is what I want, why am I not doing it??'
'I don't belong IN a body that has breasts . . . I belong ON a body that has breasts . . .'
'I don't want to alienate myself from the female community completely, but, I do want a flat chest'

Argh . . . anyways, loving being part of the BFP community - feeling less isolated :-) thank you :-)

:mohawk:

[easygoingfemme]

Sidebar question I have pondered with my partner:
If a female identified person has top surgery, can they legally walk around topless? Because that would be *awesome*.

[DapperButch]

Sidebar question I have pondered with my partner:
If a female identified person has top surgery, can they legally walk around topless? Because that would be *awesome*.

I don't know what our lawbooks say, but cultural norms would suggest, yes.

I think it is the chest, not the identity that determines these things. Our society equals male chest with male, I think. I think the typical observer would assume the person to be male, regardless as their other secondary sex characteristics. We are so programmed to the gender binary when it comes to breasts and genitals.

-----------------

If it is based on male versus female, it would come down to the person's legal gender marker. I believe that most States (not all), will allow a gender marker change after top surgery. Standard practice is for the top surgery surgeon to give you a letter saying that you should be deemed male due to having top surgery. One takes that letter to court.

But, lets say the "law" about being topless in your county is based on your sex. Picture the transitioning FTM, full beard, top surgery completed, on the topless beach, but hasn't gone to court yet for the gender marker change. If it is based on sex, then it would be just as illegal for him to be topless as the full-breasted, cisgendered female sitting next to him. Crazy, huh?

[Jar]

I don't know what our lawbooks say, but cultural norms would suggest, yes.

I think it is the chest, not the identity that determines these things.

That's a good question. I've seen some men that have some boobs going on and they're running around topless. I guess the shock factor is based on the perceived gender

[DapperButch]

Picture the transitioning FTM, full beard, top surgery completed, on the topless beach, but hasn't gone to court yet for the gender marker change. If it is based on sex, then it would be just as illegal for him to be topless as the full-breasted, cisgendered female sitting next to him. Crazy, huh?

Sorry, I meant on a NON topless beach.

[easygoingfemme]

Yup, all that. Sorry to have derailed this thread. My partner and I laugh a lot about potential scenarios, like if we back tracked to a few years ago when he had top surgery, facial hair, deepened voice, etc but had not gotten all gender markers changed- legally was he in that same limbo, though fully passing/living as male. But if I ever needed top surgery, cancer or whatever- (it runs in my family) - with no desire to ever change my gender marker or my female identity would I able to hang out topless with him? Just one of those things where I scratch my head at society. Hide the ta-tas!

[Cin]

Been thinking about this thread...

I doubt I can get anyone to sign off on a breast reduction without some planning. Up till now I have never had any complaints of backaches or anything like that, so there would be no record of problems with my breasts. I had a shoulder injury but it’s clearly documented in my medical records what happened and has nothing to do with my breasts. And I’m not sure I really want a reduction. It’s not like my breasts are gigantic and I would be happy if they were a bit smaller. It’s more that I don’t want them on my body. I don’t think there is a size that would make them more palatable. Well, maybe a triple A or double A. I hate wearing a bra. And as I age I don’t feel comfortable not wearing one. The thing is I don’t think reduction is the way I want to go. I need to think on it a bit, but when I read Dapperbutch’s experience and how happy he is with the results I want that too.

I never really thought of myself as being gender dysphoric. I know I’m okay with my assigned sex but gender is more difficult for me. I’m happy being female in my own butch way. I wouldn’t want to be anything other than a woman. So this whole thing is confusing. But it’s nice to know I’m not alone.

And it might just be something that I never do. Or it might become a financial reality in the future. Either way it's nice to have this place to talk about it and read about people's feelings and experiences.

Thanks to all who have posted.

[BullDog]

I feel so much like you do Miss Tick. I have never felt I was gender dysphoric either. If I am ever in the position where I can seriously consider having top surgery done, I am going to have to figure out how to approach that. I read part of the Standards of Care from the PDF Dapper linked to, and I really don't relate to what they are talking about in terms of gender dysphoria. However, I have wanted to have chest surgery for a very long time.

[weatherboi]

Hi folks :)


My doctor calls that body dysphoria or dysmorphic?? considering the issue seems to surround a concern with the body part but not the gender.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I have been very body dysphoric without it pertaining to my gender and it often sounded a lot like what some butches go through. It went on for fucking decades. it's only been since about three years ago that it completely stopped. but it was pretty awful. Sometimes I'd lay on the bed and cry, like I was wearing a too tight wet suit of the wrong skin.

nothing to do with gender for me though. But I empathise at how painful it can be.


Having the surgery did help initially. but not ultimately.

[Words]

I have to admit that when B. decided to go for top surgery, he presented himself as an FtM (he was already on T) rather than a third gendered/transgendered butch because he was concerned that if he didn't, the surgery wouldn't be approved (and paid for by the NHS). It did feel a little dishonest, and who knows, perhaps it would have been approved anyway, but he thought it best not to risk it and I can certainly understand why.

What took me by surprise a little was the fact that even people who knew B. fairly well assumed that the reason he wanted the surgery was because he wanted to change gender. Some even went so far as to raise an eyebrow as if to say ''Don't try to kid me'' when we told them that wasn't the case. They just wouldn't believe that he was happy being third gendered or that his main reason for wanting the surgery was so that he could finally, after years and years of wearing double binders - yes, they were that large -know the joy of slipping on a cool cotton t-shirt and immediately being 'ready to go' (more than two years down the line and he still comments frequently on just how wonderful that feels). But then, we got - and still get - the same reaction in regard to his being on T and the obvious effects of that so it shouldn't have really come as any surprise - and yet it did. *Shrug.*

Anyway, great thread.

Words

[DapperButch]

To my knowledge, the only insurance company that will pay for top surgery remains Aetna. Aetna started paying for it many, many years ago and I am surprised that more insurance companies have not followed suit. Hopefully soon. However, not all surgeons take insurance, either.

I learned today that some Cigna plans will pay for SRS surgeries. However, it is important to note that one would not have their insurance company pay for top surgery unless they are changing their sex (which is not the discussion here). For the non-transitioning person it is a cosmetic procedure, and thus would not be covered by insurance.

[Corkey]

Medicare will not pay for it, nor will most companies who work with Medicare.

[EnderD_503]

I've met many female identifying butches who have wanted top surgery, but never met any who have actually had the procedure done. I think CAMH is now a bit better for female identifying people who want top surgery, though I'm not sure if the requirements are the same as for trans guys?


My current partner who does not identify as FTM but like many of you, did not want breasts, chose to have the surgery in Toronto with a plastic surgeon who works with a local cosmetic surgery facility. I felt like they were more accommodating and respectful to us. He does not have gender dysphoria, is too old to bother with a hysterectomy and has no intentions of going on T. We did need some kind of referral which proved to be difficult as he was not seeing a therapist but I think eventually got one from his doctor. He had to pay for it himself as there were no medical reasons for doing so.

Did your current partner have it in Mississauga with McLean, by any chance? That's where I had mine and they're really awesome there, and they didn't seem interested in gender policing. They basically only asked me questions that were meant to make sure I was positive about getting the surgery done. I wonder how long ago it was though that your partner had the surgery (if he did have it there)? I had mine there about a year and a half ago and I didn't need a referral for him to have the surgery done, I also voiced to him that I didn't intend to be on T for the time being. The only thing I needed from my doctor was to have a physical done to show that I was physically healthy enough for surgery, and then a blood test from another clinic.

I was lucky in that I managed to get a student line of credit in the nick of time before banks started becoming stricter on approving them. For those that can still get them, that's probably the best route to go for top surgery if you want to avoid therapists. Especially since there are more and more top rate surgeons who don't require referrals or any of that crap anymore.

[Corkey]

This just in...


http://www.washingtonblade.com/2013/12/11/medicare-re-examine-gender/

[okieblu]

I have ALWAYS hated my breasts. They started developing when I was 8 yrs old and I got all kinds of crap, from kids and adults. Damned grown men staring at my chest and damned near salivating. And being sexually stone, makes it worse.

I can't stand to bind, and when I did, it had to be for short periods of time because of high blood pressure. Now, since bypass surgery, it just hurts too damned much.

I'm in the US, no insurance of any sort. So no money for it, either. Besides which, I'm not too sure but my cardiologist wouldn't scream bloody murder as surgery does put a strain on your heart. Though the therapist-waiting for a new one as mine retired and I MISSS HEEEER!-would probably label me as being gender dis(SP?).

Sorry, I'm sick right now and feeling down about EVERYTHING. I'll be SOOOO glad when this clears up!

[Tuff Stuff]

I like breasts...mine included.

[Femminator]

BUMP

Bumped this thread since my Butch just mentioned hy has been thinking of it for some time but was unsure how to bring it up.

Hy is masculine of center and has never really cared for hys breast at all.(I sensed this already) but after hy quite smoking, the body weight that got put on went right to that area and has caused a greater discomfort for hym. I saw a few people post that their Butches had reduction to less than As and were happy with it. I am completely supportive of hym and hy is seeing a LGBT therapist that specializes in gender right now, so I think getting a referral for getting this done should be relatively easy.

[apollo]

i've definitely considered top surgery. since i've only been butch a short amount of time i don't have binders or boxers and whatnot, and i haven't talked about with my doctor about hormones let alone surgery lol. i've done some looking into it and from what i've found getting the surgery is not easy (i'm not sure what i was expecting, it's surgery after all ¯\_(ツ)_/¯). it's expensive if your insurance doesn't cover it (in the realm of 10k), the larger your breasts are the more sensation you'll lose (i have DD's lmao), and i think you need a letter from a doctor saying you're not having a nervous breakdown and spontaneously chopping your tits off. that being said i look forward to the possibility of being flat chested :onebutch::2butch:

[Lyte]

It's on my "... if ever I have more money than I know what to do with... " list. It would be primarily for a comfort sort of thing not really gender related. Hell, even with tits I get called Sir. Iol.

[JDeere]

I've considered a reduction but not complete top surgery. It's expensive on my end due to no insurance and I might not survive another surgery, long story on that. But yeah I've hated mine since I was a young kid.

[DapperButch]

I've considered a reduction but not complete top surgery. It's expensive on my end due to no insurance and I might not survive another surgery, long story on that. But yeah I've hated mine since I was a young kid.

You can get Obamacare, just like everyone else. Although your State has chosen to not do their own exchanges ( because Rick Perry wants you all to continue to be the state with the highest uninsured rate in the country), you can still get insurance (even though it is going to cost you more because...well Rick Perry), through the federal exchanges.

http://obamacarefacts.com/insurance-exchange/texas-health-insurance-exchange/

If you meet the criteria for reduction, insurance will pay for it.

Since the state of Texas is anti trans, Texas does not require insurance companies to provide trans services (so yes, would have to pay out of pocket for top surgery, most likely).

[JDeere]

You can get Obamacare, just like everyone else. Although your State has chosen to not do their own exchanges ( because Rick Perry wants you all to continue to be the state with the highest uninsured rate in the country), you can still get insurance (even though it is going to cost you more because...well Rick Perry), through the federal exchanges.

http://obamacarefacts.com/insurance-exchange/texas-health-insurance-exchange/

If you meet the criteria for reduction, insurance will pay for it.

Since the state of Texas is anti trans, Texas does not require insurance companies to provide trans services (so yes, would have to pay out of pocket for top surgery, most likely).

Yes it will cost me out of pocket, quite a pretty penny for anything I need done. I can't afford insurance of any kind right now. So I'm just stuck.

[ClintB]

This thread is 90 percent of the reason I joined BFP.

I have never accepted my chest. I always promised myself, if I ever lost the weight (I'm heavy) my "reward" would be to get rid of them. The thing is though I always felt I was weird that even though I wanted a flat chest in public, I wanted a female chest naked... like an a cup. I figure then with a sports bra they will virtually not be there. I even think it may be worth doing now, but I've heard that if you're plus sized the doctor will want you to lose weight first. Plus an ex GF said with my build (she was being kind) I would look rediculous with a cups. I know she may get some flack for that, but I can't help but think she was kinda just stating the facts. The other part of me is getting less and less interested in staying attractive and more interested in being comfortable with myself.

Binders...I wear sometimes, but when you're a DD they reshape and that's about it, there is no way to make it appear that there aren't breasts there. I actually wear a sports bra with a binder over it, because those bastards just reposition themselves where ever they want without the bra on. The will fall plum out the bottom of shorter binders.

Has anyone had a. Reduction that is overweight? I've met trainmen with full reconstruction that looks fine... but would tiny a cups on an overweight female body look rediculous?

[cathexis]

Another with DD cups. Considered top surgery often, but also concerned with what it would look like with a heavy short torso.

Anyone tried to get a sympathetic surgeon to do it as a medically necessary mastectomy? Think it might be possible to get insurances to cover it. Am concerned if it would be covered by Medicare.

Does anyone know if top surgery for gender dysphoria is covered under Medicare during this current administration. Aware it was being reviewed under President Obama, but have they reversed any decisions???

[ClintB]

I'm not sure about full chest surgery, but the one advantage of having a larger chest is a reduction may be covered for back and neck pain and issues. I am wondering if you are allowed to pick the size though. I've heard that sometimes jnsurance will limit the size reduction. Why they really care I don't know.

[DapperButch]

This thread is 90 percent of the reason I joined BFP.

I have never accepted my chest. I always promised myself, if I ever lost the weight (I'm heavy) my "reward" would be to get rid of them. The thing is though I always felt I was weird that even though I wanted a flat chest in public, I wanted a female chest naked... like an a cup. I figure then with a sports bra they will virtually not be there. I even think it may be worth doing now, but I've heard that if you're plus sized the doctor will want you to lose weight first. Plus an ex GF said with my build (she was being kind) I would look rediculous with a cups. I know she may get some flack for that, but I can't help but think she was kinda just stating the facts. The other part of me is getting less and less interested in staying attractive and more interested in being comfortable with myself.

Binders...I wear sometimes, but when you're a DD they reshape and that's about it, there is no way to make it appear that there aren't breasts there. I actually wear a sports bra with a binder over it, because those bastards just reposition themselves where ever they want without the bra on. The will fall plum out the bottom of shorter binders.

Has anyone had a. Reduction that is overweight? I've met trainmen with full reconstruction that looks fine... but would tiny a cups on an overweight female body look rediculous?

Clint, I looked into this back when I was fighting myself over being trans. You can only go so low based on your size. As a DD, you can probably not get smaller than a B/C. I don't know the language to explain it, but maybe you can find more information on google.

Another with DD cups. Considered top surgery often, but also concerned with what it would look like with a heavy short torso.

Anyone tried to get a sympathetic surgeon to do it as a medically necessary mastectomy? Think it might be possible to get insurances to cover it. Am concerned if it would be covered by Medicare.

Does anyone know if top surgery for gender dysphoria is covered under Medicare during this current administration. Aware it was being reviewed under President Obama, but have they reversed any decisions???

Medicare covers top surgery. It used to be near impossible to get them to cover trans surgeries (after they said they would), but now it is easier. It is hard to find a surgeon who will take Medicare. Loren Schecther does, but that is only if you have a secondary insurance. Too, he only takes so many per year since how much he gets is practically nothing. He is in Chicago.

Contact Medicare and ask them for a list. I doubt they will be for travel, housing, and of course you have to stay in the area for one week after top surgery.

Back in the day, surgeons would code it as mastectomies, but no more. The cost is too high.

[*Anya*]

I posted here a couple of years ago. My long-term ex was heavy and had extremely large breasts. She hated them.

She did not ID as male but absolutely identified as very masculine of center. She liked being called sir and hated that when she turned around and they saw her chest, people would get flustered and apologize, calling her ma'am.

I don't even know what size they were or what the largest size actually is.

She did have frequent back aches and grooves in her shoulders.

She had insurance through her job-a PPO.

She researched plastic surgeons and found one comfortable with reducing them down to less than an A.

The surgery went well. She was in the hospital for at least 2 days (this was probably 20 years ago) and she had drains in both breasts. When she woke up from anesthesia, she felt both breasts that were heavily bandaged (you still could hardly see them) and she cried with happiness.

I did admire them (without touching). They were perfect and very, very, very small. She never wore a bra again and did not need to. She then lost a lot of weight and they never changed size or moved from their perfect smallness.

You do not need to go the route of complete removal unless you truly want to!

Options!

Explore reduction. I saw her again about 3 years ago and in a shirt, I could not see any difference! They never grew and never sagged.

No gravity for her!

From plasycsurgery.org:

Breast reduction candidates

Overly large breasts can cause health and emotional problems. In addition to self image issues, you may also experience physical pain and discomfort.

The weight of excess breast tissue can impair your ability to lead an active life. The emotional discomfort and self-consciousness often associated with having large pendulous breasts can be as important an issue as the physical discomfort and pain.

Breast reduction is a good option for you if you:

Are physically healthy
Have realistic expectations
Don't smoke
Are bothered by feeling that your breasts are too large
Have breasts that limit your physical activity
Experience back, neck, and shoulder pain caused by the weight of your breasts
Have shoulder indentations from bra straps
Have skin irritation beneath the breast crease

https://www.plasticsurgery.org/reconstructive-procedures/breast-reduction/candidates

[Wrang1er]

I, too would love a reduction. Size a would be A-mazing!

[ClintB]

Anya- thank you for the post... I'm glad to hear that so,done went that small who was full figured and you found it attractive.

I have heard that some insurances willl limit the amount of tissue that can be taken. Maybe a size b wouldn't be so bad either. Still could get down to flat with a sports bra... I think. I would like to get rid of my binders though.


If push came to shove, maybe I could save up and pay out of pocket. Yikes, but I have a good job and it may be doable.

[Mel C.]

When I think of myself, I think of a chest, not breasts. If I had a medical reason, I'd have them removed.

[JDeere]

I want a reduction really bad but they wont give me the size I want and I have seen many overweight transguys with full top surgery, they just look like heavy cis male, I'm not trying to be offensive or anything but that is how I see it, from my own experience.

I hope everyone gets what they want and need because some of us won't ever get it.

[BullDog]

I want to have chest surgery and not a breast reduction. That's obviously a personal choice for everyone. The older I get the more uncomfortable I am with my chest. So I really do need to come up with a financial plan to make it happen.

If I do get it I'll look like a chubby butch with a flat chest because that's who I am. I think it will be very freeing for me and the aesthetics are definitely secondary to how it will make me feel in my body.

And what's wrong with big butches, FTMs and males anyway?

[ClintB]

I want a reduction really bad but they wont give me the size I want and I have seen many overweight transguys with full top surgery, they just look like heavy cis male, I'm not trying to be offensive or anything but that is how I see it, from my own experience.

I hope everyone gets what they want and need because some of us won't ever get it.



So that is my observation as well, overweight FTM men with fulll chest reconstruction look just fine... just like any other guy of their size.

Certainly nothing wrong with being overweight... it's my own insecurities combined with what I've heard from a cis females wanting reductions about "medical standards"

i am overweight. I essentially want to appear flat chested to the world and I don't want to really have to "deal" with breasts. But.... I'm not sure I want a male looking chest.

Luckily I was just looking and some pre and post op pics... and I think I was wrong (as well as my ex). There were a few overweight individuals who went really small (like a b cup) and it actually looked just fine to me. So I'm less worried now.

[DapperButch]

I posted here a couple of years ago. My long-term ex was heavy and had extremely large breasts. She hated them.

She did not ID as male but absolutely identified as very masculine of center. She liked being called sir and hated that when she turned around and they saw her chest, people would get flustered and apologize, calling her ma'am.

I don't even know what size they were or what the largest size actually is.

She did have frequent back aches and grooves in her shoulders.

She had insurance through her job-a PPO.

She researched plastic surgeons and found one comfortable with reducing them down to less than an A.

The surgery went well. She was in the hospital for at least 2 days (this was probably 20 years ago) and she had drains in both breasts. When she woke up from anesthesia, she felt both breasts that were heavily bandaged (you still could hardly see them) and she cried with happiness.

I did admire them (without touching). They were perfect and very, very, very small. She never wore a bra again and did not need to. She then lost a lot of weight and they never changed size or moved from their perfect smallness.

You do not need to go the route of complete removal unless you truly want to!

Options!

Explore reduction. I saw her again about 3 years ago and in a shirt, I could not see any difference! They never grew and never sagged.

No gravity for her!

From plasycsurgery.org:

Breast reduction candidates

Overly large breasts can cause health and emotional problems. In addition to self image issues, you may also experience physical pain and discomfort.

The weight of excess breast tissue can impair your ability to lead an active life. The emotional discomfort and self-consciousness often associated with having large pendulous breasts can be as important an issue as the physical discomfort and pain.

Breast reduction is a good option for you if you:

Are physically healthy
Have realistic expectations
Don't smoke
Are bothered by feeling that your breasts are too large
Have breasts that limit your physical activity
Experience back, neck, and shoulder pain caused by the weight of your breasts
Have shoulder indentations from bra straps
Have skin irritation beneath the breast crease

https://www.plasticsurgery.org/reconstructive-procedures/breast-reduction/candidates

Anya, I do remember you talking about this before. I believe I did not say anything at the time because I didn't want to seem argumentative or like I was being picky. However, I feel that it wouldn't be right to not correct what you are saying this time, because I WAS that hopeful butch with C breasts who went to a plastic surgeon with dreams of getting an A chest. I was disappointed for the next 14 years until I finally decided that I would get top surgery. This was before I decided to transition.

I'm sorry, but, it simply isn't possible that your ex had what is termed a "breast reduction" in plastic surgery, if she was large chested and now has A cup breasts. It simply cannot be done though standard breast reduction procedures.

Your ex had to have essentially gotten a subcutaneous, bilateral mastectomy (most likely), or peri, or keyhole, (aka "top surgery"), and the plastic surgeon left breast tissue because this is what she requested. If she truly had a "breast reduction", her breasts would have increased in size if she gained any weight and they would have probably decreased in size if she did lost weight. Just like any other woman with a breast reduction. However, this did not happen because the surgeon did not leave the fatty tissue that needs to be present in order for that change to occur.

Back then the term "top surgery" wasn't even coined yet. It makes sense that the surgeon even used the term breast reduction. It was also paid for by insurance because it was coded as such.

Some larger trans men/butches leave tissue so that it does not look odd. One could describe their breasts as "A cups", as well.

All day, every day I talk to trans people and gender non-conforming people about their bodies and the surgeries available to them in order to alleviate their distress and/or physical discomfort.

You ex said what she wanted and the surgeon gave her that. They both called it a "breast reduction", because that was the language they had at the time.

I want a reduction really bad but they wont give me the size I want ...

Right, they can't give you the size you want if you are asking for a "breast reduction". Every women is limited by how small she can go when she gets a reduction.
I want to have chest surgery and not a breast reduction. That's obviously a personal choice for everyone. The older I get the more uncomfortable I am with my chest. So I really do need to come up with a financial plan to make it happen.

If I do get it I'll look like a chubby butch with a flat chest because that's who I am. I think it will be very freeing for me and the aesthetics are definitely secondary to how it will make me feel in my body.

And what's wrong with big butches, FTMs and males anyway?

BullDog, I know that you do not identify as trans in any way. However, you can get "top surgery" (through your insurance, if they have trans health care benefits), as long as you are willing to say that you have gender dysphoria of some sort and you would feel better with no chest. There are non-binary people (people who don't identify as women or men and/or as female or male), and they get covered.

If you DO have insurance (private, healthcare market place, or Medicaid) and you are in a state that requires that all insurance companies provide trans health coverage, then you have it. Alternatively, you can see if you can find a plastic surgeon who will code it as a breast reduction, but that is very hard to find.

Some people get part time jobs at places like Best Buy, Starbucks, Apple, and many other places so that they can get top surgery. Bigger companies like that also don't give people a hard time when they are trying to get surgeries covered, either. They follow WPATH standards and all that needs to be said is that your chest causes you "distress", and due to this it is medically necessary that you get the surgery.

When I got my top surgery and was identifying as butch, even if my company had trans health insurance I couldn't have gotten it because I didn't identify as transgender. It is different now. It is about the person's medical need to feel more comfortable with their body, if they are in distress about the parts of their body that we connect to a person's "gender".

[BullDog]

BullDog, I know that you do not identify as trans in any way. However, you can get "top surgery" (through your insurance, if they have trans health care benefits), as long as you are willing to say that you have gender dysphoria of some sort and you would feel better with no chest. There are non-binary people (people who don't identify as women or men and/or as female or male), and they get covered.

If you DO have insurance (private, healthcare market place, or Medicaid) and you are in a state that requires that all insurance companies provide trans health coverage, then you have it. Alternatively, you can see if you can find a plastic surgeon who will code it as a breast reduction, but that is very hard to find.

Some people get part time jobs at places like Best Buy, Starbucks, Apple, and many other places so that they can get top surgery. Bigger companies like that also don't give people a hard time when they are trying to get surgeries covered, either. They follow WPATH standards and all that needs to be said is that your chest causes you "distress", and due to this it is medically necessary that you get the surgery.

When I got my top surgery and was identifying as butch, even if my company had trans health insurance I couldn't have gotten it because I didn't identify as transgender. It is different now. It is about the person's medical need to feel more comfortable with their body, if they are in distress about the parts of their body that we connect to a person's "gender".


Thank you Dapper, I definitely need to look into things more, and especially since we don't know how things will change under the current political climate. For me it is definitely a body and gender dysphoria issue even though I don't id as trans or as male identified.

[ClintB]

Damn Dapper... thankful for the contribution even though it wasn't what I wanted to hear.

[JDeere]

That's why I would rather do top surgery and have none at all, as opposed to dealing with the surgeons BS guidelines.

[DapperButch]

Binders...I wear sometimes, but when you're a DD they reshape and that's about it, there is no way to make it appear that there aren't breasts there. I actually wear a sports bra with a binder over it, because those bastards just reposition themselves where ever they want without the bra on. The will fall plum out the bottom of shorter binders.



I would highly recommend this binder:

https://www.gc2b.co/

They came out after I got top surgery, but all of my clients say they bind well (even the really big guys), but are still comfortable. You may find you are ok-enough with this if surgery is something that doesn't work out for you.

Butches have been wearing the Frog Bra since the 1990's!

https://www.titlenine.com/product/frog-bra-320927.do

This though, doesn't get on completely flat when you are working with a DD. However, it is a good choice for working out.

Also, always buy the right size binder and never double up. People believe that it makes them flater, but that just isn't accurate. Don't wear beyond 8 hours, if you can help it.

[*Anya*]

Well, I won't argue with you either but the facts for her are the facts. It was her experience. Period.

As a nurse, I know very well doctors work with patients to ensure that they are given what they need. This doctor knew both of us well. He had previously removed a small tumor from my clavicle that is a barely noticeable scar now.

I was there and I went with her to all of her plastic surgeon appointments and also was in the hospital with her.

Her surgery was a breast reduction. The surgeon called it a reduction. The anesthesiologist called it a reduction, etc. etc. She was an A cup and her nipples were almost the largest things on her breasts. They were carefully replaced and when I say that they were perfect: they were perfect. She was shocked to find that she had more nipple sensation afterward then she had when they were so large.

She did NOT have a mastectomy.

I was a B cup at the time myself. She was no B cup after surgery.

When the bills came: they all stated breast reduction.

So, her experience may be different from those of other people but it was indeed her experience.

I would not dream of telling someone else that their experience was wrong.

Your experience was yours.

Hers was hers.

Anyone knows that not everyone will find the same experience.

It does seem argumentative when you challenge another's experience.









Anya, I do remember you talking about this before. I believe I did not say anything at the time because I didn't want to seem argumentative or like I was being picky. However, I feel that it wouldn't be right to not correct what you are saying this time, because I WAS that hopeful butch with C breasts who went to a plastic surgeon with dreams of getting an A chest. I was disappointed for the next 14 years until I finally decided that I would get top surgery. This was before I decided to transition.

I'm sorry, but, it simply isn't possible that your ex had what is termed a "breast reduction" in plastic surgery, if she was large chested and now has A cup breasts. It simply cannot be done though standard breast reduction procedures.

Your ex had to have essentially gotten a subcutaneous, bilateral mastectomy (most likely), or peri, or keyhole, (aka "top surgery"), and the plastic surgeon left breast tissue because this is what she requested. If she truly had a "breast reduction", her breasts would have increased in size if she gained any weight and they would have probably decreased in size if she did lost weight. Just like any other woman with a breast reduction. However, this did not happen because the surgeon did not leave the fatty tissue that needs to be present in order for that change to occur.

Back then the term "top surgery" wasn't even coined yet. It makes sense that the surgeon even used the term breast reduction. It was also paid for by insurance because it was coded as such.

Some larger trans men/butches leave tissue so that it does not look odd. One could describe their breasts as "A cups", as well.

All day, every day I talk to trans people and gender non-conforming people about their bodies and the surgeries available to them in order to alleviate their distress and/or physical discomfort.

You ex said what she wanted and the surgeon gave her that. They both called it a "breast reduction", because that was the language they had at the time.



Right, they can't give you the size you want if you are asking for a "breast reduction". Every women is limited by how small she can go when she gets a reduction.


BullDog, I know that you do not identify as trans in any way. However, you can get "top surgery" (through your insurance, if they have trans health care benefits), as long as you are willing to say that you have gender dysphoria of some sort and you would feel better with no chest. There are non-binary people (people who don't identify as women or men and/or as female or male), and they get covered.

If you DO have insurance (private, healthcare market place, or Medicaid) and you are in a state that requires that all insurance companies provide trans health coverage, then you have it. Alternatively, you can see if you can find a plastic surgeon who will code it as a breast reduction, but that is very hard to find.

Some people get part time jobs at places like Best Buy, Starbucks, Apple, and many other places so that they can get top surgery. Bigger companies like that also don't give people a hard time when they are trying to get surgeries covered, either. They follow WPATH standards and all that needs to be said is that your chest causes you "distress", and due to this it is medically necessary that you get the surgery.

When I got my top surgery and was identifying as butch, even if my company had trans health insurance I couldn't have gotten it because I didn't identify as transgender. It is different now. It is about the person's medical need to feel more comfortable with their body, if they are in distress about the parts of their body that we connect to a person's "gender".

[*Anya*]

This is what my ex did. Even though she was told she might not have feeling in her nipples, she did report that she had more than before:

"Although most patients who visit my office are asking how large can they go with a breast augmentation, there are many who are trying to go in the opposite direction. Because of oversized breasts, these patients, both women and men, are asking about small they can go.

For men, the breast enlargement is termed gynecomastia. I am not going to speak further about this topic in this blog, but will devote my remarks to breast reduction in women.

These women suffer from back, neck, and shoulder pain, as well as rashes beneath the breasts, painful bra strap grooves over the shoulders, hunched posture, and many other limitations that affect their ability to live a normal life. They are frequently of a DD cup size or larger, and almost always want to be reduced to a C cup or smaller. They frequently ask, “How small can I go?”

The answer to this question can be given in several ways.

First, how small should they go? A woman who has been quite large for many years will often find a significant reduction in size to be somewhat akin to a mastectomy! Also, women usually are desirous of a balance between their hips and their bust line. Although smaller breasts have their advantages, there may be a mismatch between hips and breasts that may be undesirable.

Second, how small can a person go with breast reduction? The answer to that question has to do with the blood supply to the nipple area. There needs to be a large enough amount of breast tissue on which the nipple sits to provide an adequate amount of blood supply to the nipple.

The blood supply comes through the breast tissue, and if there is not enough, the nipple will suffer from a lack of blood supply that can even lead to its loss. Various techniques of breast reduction are employed that have as their goal the preservation of an adequate amount of blood flow to the remaining breast tissue so as to insure survival of the nipple.

How much breast tissue needs to be left to insure this blood supply? There is not a hard and fast answer. The amount of breast tissue is not really the issue – it’s the amount of blood flow through it that reaches the attached nipple that’s important.

>>>>>Theoretically you could take away almost all of the breast tissue and leave the blood supply behind and you would be OK. The reality is that this would leave a funny looking breast. From a practical perspective, if you are going to reduce the breast by more than 3 full cup sizes (DDD to a C cup is 3 sizes), the nipple blood supply may be endangered.

What do we do in cases where more than 3 full cup sizes need to be removed? I recommend that the nipple be removed, the breast be reduced without concern for the nipple blood supply, and then that the nipple be reattached as a skin graft.

To do this, a piece of skin in the circular shape of the nipple is removed from where the nipple is to go. The nipple is trimmed of all fatty material from its undersurface, and it is then applied to that spot and secured.

Over the course of 5 days, new blood vessels will grow from the breast to the nipple, restoring its blood supply. The new nipple will be flatter, sensation will be reduced, and nursing will not be possible. On the other hand, these issues are worth it for many women who are troubled by large breasts"<<<

My ex had zero problems and though she was stone at the time and it was "look but don't touch" I thought they looked terrific. She did not care how they would look, she just wanted super-small.

An excellent, well-researched, board-certified, plastic surgeon was key.

This doctor was not hers but he did address the info I was looking for.

http://www.drsanders.com/how-small-can-i-go-with-a-breast-reduction/

[JDeere]

This is what my ex did. Even though she was told she might not have feeling in her nipples, she did report that she had more than before:

"Although most patients who visit my office are asking how large can they go with a breast augmentation, there are many who are trying to go in the opposite direction. Because of oversized breasts, these patients, both women and men, are asking about small they can go.

For men, the breast enlargement is termed gynecomastia. I am not going to speak further about this topic in this blog, but will devote my remarks to breast reduction in women.

These women suffer from back, neck, and shoulder pain, as well as rashes beneath the breasts, painful bra strap grooves over the shoulders, hunched posture, and many other limitations that affect their ability to live a normal life. They are frequently of a DD cup size or larger, and almost always want to be reduced to a C cup or smaller. They frequently ask, “How small can I go?”

The answer to this question can be given in several ways.

First, how small should they go? A woman who has been quite large for many years will often find a significant reduction in size to be somewhat akin to a mastectomy! Also, women usually are desirous of a balance between their hips and their bust line. Although smaller breasts have their advantages, there may be a mismatch between hips and breasts that may be undesirable.

Second, how small can a person go with breast reduction? The answer to that question has to do with the blood supply to the nipple area. There needs to be a large enough amount of breast tissue on which the nipple sits to provide an adequate amount of blood supply to the nipple.

The blood supply comes through the breast tissue, and if there is not enough, the nipple will suffer from a lack of blood supply that can even lead to its loss. Various techniques of breast reduction are employed that have as their goal the preservation of an adequate amount of blood flow to the remaining breast tissue so as to insure survival of the nipple.

How much breast tissue needs to be left to insure this blood supply? There is not a hard and fast answer. The amount of breast tissue is not really the issue – it’s the amount of blood flow through it that reaches the attached nipple that’s important.

>>>>>Theoretically you could take away almost all of the breast tissue and leave the blood supply behind and you would be OK. The reality is that this would leave a funny looking breast. From a practical perspective, if you are going to reduce the breast by more than 3 full cup sizes (DDD to a C cup is 3 sizes), the nipple blood supply may be endangered.

What do we do in cases where more than 3 full cup sizes need to be removed? I recommend that the nipple be removed, the breast be reduced without concern for the nipple blood supply, and then that the nipple be reattached as a skin graft.

To do this, a piece of skin in the circular shape of the nipple is removed from where the nipple is to go. The nipple is trimmed of all fatty material from its undersurface, and it is then applied to that spot and secured.

Over the course of 5 days, new blood vessels will grow from the breast to the nipple, restoring its blood supply. The new nipple will be flatter, sensation will be reduced, and nursing will not be possible. On the other hand, these issues are worth it for many women who are troubled by large breasts"<<<

My ex had zero problems and though she was stone at the time and it was "look but don't touch" I thought they looked terrific. She did not care how they would look, she just wanted super-small.

An excellent, well-researched, board-certified, plastic surgeon was key.

This doctor was not hers but he did address the info I was looking for.

http://www.drsanders.com/how-small-can-i-go-with-a-breast-reduction/

Thank you for all this. I'm going to look more into this before I try to get insurance.

[ClintB]

I think I've kinda formulate my attack. I'll try the binders Dapper suggested... I've heard good things about them. I went with a zippered style instead though because I'm scare of getting stuck in it lol.... I've heard stories.

Second is just to pursue the reduction and see what size they will do. I'm not sure if it would be worth it if they will only go down to a C, but maybe a B cup wouldn't be so bad.

If none of that proves satisfactory, then I will have to decide... accepted them or consider full top surgery.

[JDeere]

I think I've kinda formulate my attack. I'll try the binders Dapper suggested... I've heard good things about them. I went with a zippered style instead though because I'm scare of getting stuck in it lol.... I've heard stories.

Second is just to pursue the reduction and see what size they will do. I'm not sure if it would be worth it if they will only go down to a C, but maybe a B cup wouldn't be so bad.

If none of that proves satisfactory, then I will have to decide... accepted them or consider full top surgery.

Make sure to pick a board certified doctor, please, I have heard stories of trans men and women picking a doctor, then end up having some serious problems.

[DapperButch]

Anya,

I really don't have an investment in what your ex's surgery was called 20 years ago. I even said it was probably called breast reduction even if it more closely resembled "top surgery", as the term "top surgery" wasn't used back then.

What I care about is C+ butches getting excited thinking they can get a plastic surgeon to provide them with a "breast reduction" that will make them a small A, which can be billed under their regular insurance, only to find out that they can't. Many, many butches and trans men have gone this route over the years and were disappointed. I attempted to go this route. It sucked when I was told that a breast reduction could not give me this. It sucked. It sucked BAD. 20 years ago, even 10 years ago, surgeons would provide top surgery, but code it and bill it as a "breast reduction".

I knew I was taking a risk of you pissing you off and others thinking I am an ass (both which have appeared to have happened), but I wasn't going to let another big chested butch get their hopes up based on the experience of one person from 20 years ago. Well, maybe I couldn't impact their hope, but at least I might be able to suggest they shouldn't assume it could be done.

I'm not going to respond any more to this topic of breast reduction. This is a top surgery thread for butches, to talk about their interest in top surgery. I am not going to continue to clog up the thread with a different topic.

[cathexis]

guys...guys...GUYS!

What's with the animosity? Yes, the thread is entitled "Top Surgery for Butches," but why complain about any information that's available and helpful?

I, for one, am interested in reading about anything useful.

[ClintB]

lesson learned.

[kittygrrl]

I have a question...Do they still require those who want this surgery to be on T a full year before they will perform surgery? I was told it had something to do with developing needed muscle mass(as far as I can recall).....it's been a long while since I was involved in this so if this isn't the case anymore I'd love to know!:confused: I've been with two pre-op and post-ops and I have to say they turned out magnificent...j/s

[DapperButch]

Anya,

I really don't have an investment in what your ex's surgery was called 20 years ago. I even said it was probably called breast reduction even if it more closely resembled "top surgery", as the term "top surgery" wasn't used back then.

What I care about is C+ butches getting excited thinking they can get a plastic surgeon to provide them with a "breast reduction" that will make them a small A, which can be billed under their regular insurance, only to find out that they can't. Many, many butches and trans men have gone this route over the years and were disappointed. I attempted to go this route. It sucked when I was told that a breast reduction could not give me this. It sucked. It sucked BAD. 20 years ago, even 10 years ago, surgeons would provide top surgery, but code it and bill it as a "breast reduction".

I knew I was taking a risk of you pissing you off and others thinking I am an ass (both which have appeared to have happened), but I wasn't going to let another big chested butch get their hopes up based on the experience of one person from 20 years ago. Well, maybe I couldn't impact their hope, but at least I might be able to suggest they shouldn't assume it could be done.

I'm not going to respond any more to this topic of breast reduction. This is a top surgery thread for butches, to talk about their interest in top surgery. I am not going to continue to clog up the thread with a different topic.

Ok, so I just realized where my error may be in explaining things.

I am defining breast reduction vs. top surgery based on the amount of tissue removed and the type of incisions that would have had to be done in order to take someone from that size TO an A. I am not arguing, something like when the surgeon removed your ex's nipple/areola complex and resized it, that they placed it where a female areola complex would be located.

[DapperButch]

I have a question...Do they still require those who want this surgery to be on T a full year before they will perform surgery? I was told it had something to do with developing needed muscle mass(as far as I can recall).....it's been a long while since I was involved in this so if this isn't the case anymore I'd love to know!:confused: I've been with two pre-op and post-ops and I have to say they turned out magnificent...j/s

No, this is no longer required. The reduction of gender dysphoria depends on the person. Not everyone feels they need to take T in order to reduce their gender dysphoria.

The muscle part was a myth....I don't know if surgeons fueled it (because they wanted an excuse to not go against WPATH standards), or where it came from. And then it just continued.

[AmazonDC]

I have thought about this for a long time... I naturally make so much T that I already only have small size chest mostly resembles a male chest anyways.. My issue is the scars.. for Me I would not like ha omg the large scars... delema

[DapperButch]

I have thought about this for a long time... I naturally make so much T that I already only have small size chest mostly resembles a male chest anyways.. My issue is the scars.. for Me I would not like ha omg the large scars... delema

If you have no droop to your breasts, you can get the "keyhole" or peri-areola method. This has no scars. Dr Fischer is regarded as the best at this internationally. She is in Maryland and does take insurance.

[DapperButch]

Www.Topsurgery.net.

[JDeere]

I think in the long run, folks are going to do what they want to do, regarding this matter.

I for one have already looked into the process of reduction with the size I want from a doctor that will do it and knows my medical history, etc.

[ClintB]

Saw a lot of butches and men last week and jeez it does make me second guess what to do.


I guess my biggest dilemma is I'm not sure I want to b perceived as male. But no bra, no binder.... hell, NO SHIRT.... seems like heaven

[JDeere]

Saw a lot of butches and men last week and jeez it does make me second guess what to do.


I guess my biggest dilemma is I'm not sure I want to b perceived as male. But no bra, no binder.... hell, NO SHIRT.... seems like heaven

I wouldn't mind being perceived as male but omg I would love to not have to wear a bra or binder or no shirt!!!
:hangloose:

[ClintB]

I should clarify that.... as I am someone that doesn't mind the occasional "sir" thrown my way.

I don't like the idea of being perceived as cis male amoung my own people. Like, I feel I embody both male and female sides and traits... so I wouldn't want to be perceived as just one or the other.

[JDeere]

I should clarify that.... as I am someone that doesn't mind the occasional "sir" thrown my way.

I don't like the idea of being perceived as cis male amoung my own people. Like, I feel I embody both male and female sides and traits... so I wouldn't want to be perceived as just one or the other.

Understand, thanks for clarifying..

[cathexis]

Anyone aware of Trump talking about legislation or executive orders refusing to pay for top surgery for those of us on Medicare/Medicaid?

Kind of curious why my PMD told me (without asking) that there would really be no need to wait for top surgery. She had said that there used to be a customary 1 yr. wait after starting T, but doesn't think it's necessary now.

Does she know something about what's coming up politically that I don't know?

[JDeere]

Anyone aware of Trump talking about legislation or executive orders refusing to pay for top surgery for those of us on Medicare/Medicaid?

Kind of curious why my PMD told me (without asking) that there would really be no need to wait for top surgery. She had said that there used to be a customary 1 yr. wait after starting T, but doesn't think it's necessary now.

Does she know something about what's coming up politically that I don't know?

might want to ask that in the trans thread or the political thread... they have a lot of info on those threads.

[DapperButch]

Anyone aware of Trump talking about legislation or executive orders refusing to pay for top surgery for those of us on Medicare/Medicaid?

Kind of curious why my PMD told me (without asking) that there would really be no need to wait for top surgery. She had said that there used to be a customary 1 yr. wait after starting T, but doesn't think it's necessary now.

Does she know something about what's coming up politically that I don't know?

Medicaid is run by states, so they make the decisions.

I doubt very much that an executive order could reverse what medical procedures Medicare will cover.

WPATH standards dropped the one year on testosterone guideline in 2012.

I know you are on disability (as you have shared this on BFP). Based on your post, I am going to assume that you have Medicare. Along with that, I am going to assume that your Medicare is primary. If so, whether or not or state Medicaid covers surgery doesn't matter (unless you go out of state for your surgery and want your secondary insurance to pick up the Medicare copay).

Here is a list of surgeons who accept Medicare. Some have caveats to accepting Medicare though, such as the person having a secondary insurance they know will pay the copay. Schechter is one of these people.
Insurance for trans surgeries is extremely complicated. I would be happy to help you navigate it, based on your situation.

http://www.topsurgery.net/surgeons/medicare.htm

[JDeere]

I am thinking about seriously asking my doctor about top surgery or maybe a reduction, as well as other surgery things.