In Celebration of Butch Femininity

[Nat]

Over the years I've run into many conversations with people off-site who have hit my radar as butch-ish, but who feel like certain "feminine" traits they possess or express somehow exclude them or distance them from butchness.

Among things I've specifically heard: haircuts, relationship to make-up, pronouns, sexual preferences, wearing women's clothes or undergarments, even prefered roles within a family or relationship, even jobs held.

This thread is intended as an opportunity for celebration of the femininity which can co-exist with being a butch. Because I think it's better to celebrate where there has perhaps been some tendency in the direction of shaming in our community and in the greater community.

Do you experience gender pressure from other butches or masculine people to amp up your masculinity or tone down your femininity in order to *qualify* as butch? Have you ever found yourself exerting gender pressure on self-identified butches? If you are not butch, have you ever found yourself pressuring butches to behave, dress, etc in more masculine ways than is natural?

[imperfect_cupcake]

I guess I personally don't see make up as feminine. I grew up with boys wearing it- goth and punk rock, rock and roll glam... Heavy eyeliner and mascara with peacock hair was dangerous and edgy, not gendered....

I do love that smokey, rock and roll, Marc Bolan T-Rex look of black eyeliner on a butch. The unspoken promise of edgy and taboo sex....

Sigh.

[Hey You]

Hmm.

I have what barbers call a box cut and a rattail and I wouldn't wear makeup if you paid me, and my wardrobe is certainly not femme in any way. I buy from the men's section as much as possible and go out of my way to not look what I perceive as 'girly'. But part of the reason I.. struggle is the wrong word, but it's the only one my post-gym brain can come up with. Part of the reason I struggle with whether I'm a butch or soft butch or whatever, not that it's exceptionally important but I'd like to know, is a couple of these almost feminine things.
I have taken up lawn bowls. Not exceptionally butch but it is fun and harder than it looks. I balance it out by doing weight lifting. Also much, much fun and so empowering.
I play classical piano. I have no idea where that sits but it is the one thing I will never, ever quit no matter what.
I'm almost a qualified librarian. Make of that what you will.
My biggest dream in the whole world is to have children. I want to get pregnant, give birth and breastfeed. That desire has been with me for YEARS and it's not going away. Is that un-butch? I feel like it's a female desire, but not necessarily a feminine one. After all, as I like to say, getting my period is my concession to being female. I would actually really appreciate people's views on this.

I think that ultimately, for me anyway, my butchness, however much there is of it, comes down to the way I like to present to the world, the way I like to approach dating, and the contents of my fantasies. The way I fill up my life doesn't really form part of that. My brain is mush right now and I think it's not really a black/white issue. Very interesting one, though, thanks for bringing it up.

All of that made sense in my head. Let me know if any of it needs clarifying and I will do it later when my brain wakes back up. Lol.

/Essay over. :o

[The_Lady_Snow]

Visual Ideal of what *Butch* is expected to look like, the two more masculine presenting women would be *acceptable* and goo goo ga ga material.

The two women, one on the far left and the one on the right next to the leathered up Dyke are make up wearing more *androgynous* in their presentation and their style they even wear make up kinda butches.

http://outfrontonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/ButchFeatureimage.jpg


When we dicusss femininity in butches Nat, I am trying to figure out what exactly that means. Clothes, make up, hair, nails are social markers or cues that may give you (general) a hint that a person is ________. I wonder if that is ingrained ideals of what equates butch or if it is our desire that makes us turn our head or do we look beyond the clothing and outer presentation. I get uncomfortable as a Femme defining what is what for other genders, or gender presentation. I am like live and let live and Butch is just Butch regardless if they like pink, make up, or My Little Pony.

I am with HoneyB, this whole if a Butch happens to own a tube of Mac lipstick doesn't influence how Butch is or it should be, Butch like Femme come in so many different varieties of presentation that I just can't see why or how any type of perceived femininity would deter from that, it's confusing only here online.


I only deal with this kind of off putting thought when online, when I go to the bar or out I don't hear the sharp intake of breath in the form of a gasp because a Butch is not presenting or dressing in a particular manner or fashion, what happens is we look, we appreciate, or we make a move.

[The_Lady_Snow]

http://images.dailylife.com.au/2013/12/03/4975508/WIDEbutch_bookcover-620x349.jpg


I love visual aids, here is a great example of a hot butch woman who is in make up, we do ourselves a disservice by dismissing butches for not dressing in a stereotypical manner. At least I think we do.

[Julie]

I am not sure I would define makeup and wearing women's clothing - Butch Femininity. I believe the feminine energy, as does the masculine energy comes from within and not how we dress ourselves.

It would be the same if I wore boxers and lumberjack shirts? Would this define me? (which btw I do and I have).

Years ago when my children were young, I dated a Lawyer who worked at the UN. This Butch was BUTCH BUTCH BUTCH and her energy incredibly masculine. She wore tailored women's suits and makeup. Beautiful diamond earrings and a pendant that belonged to her Momma. I never slept with her though, so I have no idea what her undergarments were. She was a controlling bitch :|

This thread in some ways reminds me of the one nycFem started "Name a way(s) you break the stereotypes of "Butch" / "Femme" / "FTM" etc"

[stargazingboi]

Great thread Nat.

I think the overall responses in other threads about people trying to figure out what ID they are, surely indicates that there is a pressure to fit into some type of box. New folks that I have encountered here tend to be directed to the forum to learn about the different ID's that are used here on this site. They are given a definition of sorts. Once a definition is given they try to fit themselves into one of those boxes.

The thing I have learned over the years is that having boxes we feel we must fit into causes self doubt, because often time no one really fits into the written definition 100%. So, I think they turn to their community and watch people, talk, and try and sort things out in their mind to determine what box they are closest to and adopt that term.

I remember back in a time when "soft butch,"stone butch," and "butch" where the only terms used. I had never heard of transgendered before, and had no clue that was what I was. I merely, knew I didn't fit into what everyone else was using.

I listened over to others, whether butch or femme, make statements about how butch or not butch a person was. They joke around about "butch cards," it's a joke I know and I have been known to joke as well..but I think about what that may say to a new butch trying to find their way. Although, the "butch card" is a joke and doesn't exist..it in itself indicates that there is an expectation of what it is to be butch and if you do not meet it then your butchness is revoked.

People are forced to dissect themselves and weight what is "femme" and what is "butch" in everything they do. Not quite the way life should be in my eyes. Have I been known to observe a person and in my mind think they are a soft butch (or something) and find myself wrong when they ID as something else. Yes, yes I have. Do I sit and tell them they can't be that because of certain things they do....nope I sure don't. If that is how they ID then so be it..it isn't for me to judge.

It could be that my views on what is masculine is vast because of places I have lived. In New England and down into New York and New Jersey you see a great deal of varied self expressions. When living out there I would head to work and see men wearing pink and lavender shirts and so forth. Living in these places allowed me to see men enjoy art, theater, dance, etc., and none of them were ever questioned about their masculinity. Oh and yeah...I'm one of those guys that have no shame in wearing a pink shirt with or without a tie. What I wear and what I do is that the marker of all that I am...it is my character that truly defines who I am.

In either the Butch world or transgender side of things there is pressure to meet a certain level of masculinity in which they (another person outside of self) have defined and that their definition is the only definition that counts. Unless you work for webster dictionary your definition is a personal opinion and should not be forced to be gospel to another...it is a personal opinion...no more/no less.

The beauty of this world is that we are different...I love the wide verity of butches and femmes...makes life interesting. So, if you want to knit...wear make up...cut wood...arm wrestle...dance...play an instrument. Go for it...because honestly...who's to really say what is a girl thing or a boi thing. Embrace yourself..love yourself...and be happy

I could write more...but I think I have rambled long enough

[Kobi]

I have spent an hour trying to figure out why the phrase "butch femininity" offends me. I still have no answer but it does.

First and foremost, I am a woman. I own it, accept it, and take pride in it. I just do it my way. By conventional standards, I am more masculine than feminine but it doesnt distract me from being female.

I am also a lesbian. I take pride in partnering with women who enjoy being with another woman and can appreciate the totality of being 2 women together. There is a different dynamic in the exchange of energies.

I am reluctant to id as a female id butch these days because butch has transformed from being about how to express masculine energy to gender issues celebrating male.

I dont wear mens clothing, suits or ties. I wear scents I like, not based on who they are marketed to. I dont get a vicarious thrill out of discussing the merits of boxers vs briefs in mixed gender environments. I dont do a lot of things that are seem as stereotypical in either direction.

I have never felt pressure from a male id butch, transgendered person, or a transman to act or dress or express myself in a certain way to be seen a certain way.

I have felt pressure from femmes to dress, look, think, act, flirt, have sex, and just be different cuz it is what they expect or prefer. They seem to have difficulty relating to me as a woman. And, they have a knack for making me feel less than.

Thankfully, this seems to be just an online thing.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I feel the same way on line. It never happens in person. I also date people who don't define as butch because they believe it means flannel wearing lumber jack that wipes themselves with steel wool on the loo. They feel quite butch to me in bed and in the way we interact. They feel exactly like a person who IDs as a butch. The only time I see people balking at wearing make up or a pink dress shirt or liking opera or ballet or going to a city park for a pic nic and looking at magazines is on line. Which is why I don't do my butch and femme and genderqueer and trans community on line anymore. I always feel like I'll never get asked out because A) almost everyone is in the states, no matter what group I join B) I don't enjoy being treated like a princess and I don't want to follow certain American dating rituals.
So, no one asks me out = less than.
However in person, I have the "what do you like to do in bed" conversation where I tell them how I relate to someone and I get a big smile and a nod and we never even discuss ID, it becomes irrelevant what my ID is or what theirs is. They are attractive, they relate to me in the way I like someone to, I relate to them sexually in the way they feel instinctual about and we've skipped the whole part where they or I ID.

It does require difficult conversations though and if you can't talk openly about sex, it will probably prove fatal lol

[Cin]

(i know this is way too long, if you're pressed for time or just have better things to do with yours than read my ridiculously long post just jump to the last two paragraphs. I think that is all I really meant to say)

Butch femininity. Interesting term. You don’t hear that much. But to me femininity comes with the territory of woman, a territory where I happily reside. And within the territory of woman resides the identity of butch. So to me femininity and butch seem congruent, although you would be hard pressed to see the two terms used together in a sentence to describe the same person. Mostly we just can’t get enough of that butch masculinity combo. That’s where we usually devote our time and energy.

I have, over the years, spent a lot of time struggling against masculinity, in all its permutations, variations, configurations and presentations. Once upon a time I rejected my own masculinity. I have viewed masculinity as synonymous with misogyny. I believed the term good man was an oxymoron. I had men in my life I loved dearly, I even had a son, but I saw them all as anomalies. They were the few exceptions to the rule that men are patently unpleasant.

In the past to me, generally speaking, men, male, masculine meant nothing good for women, female, feminine, because there was no way to live in this society and not be taught to view male as superior to female. Unless you were raised by wolves or lived from birth under a rock, on some level, consciously or unconsciously, to one degree or another, you would believe male trumped female. And unless you did a whole lot of work on yourself, this notion is stuck in your head. So man, male, masculine will believe he is superior. He is not likely to be evolved. He won’t accept that he has male privilege and that this privilege affects women. He may not be exorcised of his misogyny.

My understanding of the male of the species was that men viewed women as lesser versions of human beings who were, or at least should be, subservient to them. Masculinity has more value, more currency, than femininity to men (and most women as well), and unless men are looking for something to fuck, it is another male whose company they seek. At best they were benevolent oppressors at worst violent and dangerous destroyers. All were dream killers.

No surprise that I found my own masculinity appallingly inconvenient.

I understood these feelings were problematic as well as stereotypical and would mostly alienate me from masculine people (not to mention make them want to punch me in the face). I spent a great deal of time working on this. I try very hard NOT to eliminate 50% of the world’s population from my circle of value based on their sex or gender alone. I am pleased to say that I have been marginally successful to date. Thankfully I no longer believe all men/male/masculine people are the devil (some are his minions though.)

However, easily the most difficult issue for me to deal with was my own masculinity. I went through a variety of head tilting and a plethora of mental gymnastic type strategies to try and be comfortable in my own skin. At one point I decided it was not female masculinity I embodied regardless of what it felt like. I was simply doing woman/female my own way. I decided I would not let the patriarchy define what it means to be a woman for me. I would define woman in my own image. And my definition of myself did not include any masculine identifiers. That worked to a point, but there was always the problem of how I looked. You know the old adage if it looks like a duck? Well, I looked a lot like a duck, still do. Anyway, there were a few other similar issues that arose as well. All of them were of the same general duck theme though.

Not only did I look masculine but I felt masculine in a lot of ways. Not all ways but enough ways so that I could tell the difference when I felt feminine. Which was way less than when I felt masculine. But I always felt female.

Most of the clothes I liked happened to be found exclusively in the men’s department. Not only men’s clothing attracted me though, mostly, but not solely. But regardless of what type of clothes I wore, I did not look like most people’s definition of feminine. Also, lots of the stuff that I enjoy doing is typically considered masculine entertainment, although some things that I enjoy fall squarely on the feminine side of the equation.

I suppose the problem is exemplified by this need to define most things in life using the duality mode of quantification. I think it would be better for everyone all the way around if we could universally as one single minded organism just stop doing that. LIKE RIGHT NOW. But I doubt that will happen. You might be surprised to discover just how ingrained this is in us to do, and in how many different ways we define things using an opposite for clarity and understanding. We understand something to be up because we are clear on what is down. We know how cold it is because we have experienced warmth. In addition to the duality thing, we also use gradation usually in terms of a hierarchy with the most masculine firmly entrenched in the top spot.

There are many people who were born female and are quite comfortable in their own masculinity. I wanted to relate but couldn’t. Regardless of all appearances to the contrary, I was not one of the boys. On the other hand I was quite comfortable in my femininity as long as I was allowed to express myself in my own way. Yet as much as I felt female, I would never be considered one of the girls. And there were always plenty of girls to remind me of how far short I fell. I was envious of other butches who were comfortable being fairly synonymous with man. I was never at ease with leaving woman behind. I always identified with being a woman and with other women. I love women. Looking back though, I have to say that overall they haven’t been that fond of me. Most women saw me as masculine and interpreted that as me trying to emulate a man and they hated it. Fortunately femmes find female masculinity hot. However, regardless of whether I was loved or hated, my masculinity would not be denied. I have a better chance of denying my femininity and I suppose upon occasion I have done just that. Femmes may find female masculinity hot but butch femininity, not so much. Although losing either diminishes me

There is a lot in it for a butch to claim their masculinity. Not only does it feel right, but femmes like masculine identified people. Most femmes are attracted to butches as well as a variety of other masculine identified persons. For a lot of femmes it’s female masculinity that is the attraction, or at least it used to be that way. It is changing to include various types of male energy, but there are still a lot of femmes who are attracted to butch energy. And for a lack of a better way to explain that energy, it is generally thought of as female masculinity.

Besides all the reasons that make it is a lost cause for me to deny my masculinity, it is also clear to me that not claiming masculine energy would not make me any less masculine looking to the untrained eye. I often wonder if it is this masculine look and energy that I have that makes it so jarring for others when I do feminine stuff. I have over the years had to remind people that I am indeed a woman, when they express surprise about my feminine attire or my desire to make jewelry, decorate a cake or organize my closet. Then I have to add that even if I wasn’t a woman I could still bake a cake or wear silk blouses.

Butch femininity is a puzzling terminology for me because butch is always a feminine identifier in my mind. But then I no longer shy away from the term feminine. I fought too hard to own it and define it my way. Not just female, but woman and feminine. It’s all mine. My birthright. My sex is female and because of that I am subject to all that means in our society. I wouldn’t have it any other way. My identifying as female was often looked at as suspect, like I was cheating in some way, like I was purposely refusing to display agreed upon conduct or refusing to look a certain way but stubbornly holding onto female as my gender. Because of that degree of difficulty for me to just be female, the identity of woman was always very close to my heart, something I refused to relinquish. There’s a look I sometimes get from guys when they realize I am a woman. They always looked kind of pissed like I was trying to put one over on them. I know if it was possible to strip woman from someone’s identity there are people who would have happily done that to me (either that or beat the masculinity out of me). I guess it just seems greedy to them to keep both.

The thing is it wasn’t purposeful on my part. I never chose to refuse to look like what society has decided a woman should look like. I never refused to do stuff women enjoy just to be stubborn. I had this silly idea I should just be true to myself and that would be okay. I also believed I was female and there was nothing I had to do to be that. I just was that. So being anything other than female just wasn’t an option for me. I am a woman and happy to be so. Consequently upon occasion I will do feminine things. Hell I know some guys that upon occasion do feminine things. Personally I think the problem arises from gendering inanimate objects, thinking processes and emotional responses.

I imagine that there are some people who exclude or distance themselves from butchness because they feel it doesn’t allow for feminine traits as the OP mentions. I certainly have felt I didn’t fit butch comfortably because of the masculine rigidity. Yet there is this undeniable masculinity thing going on with me and it’s hard to ignore. For me butch is kind of a storage space into which I can stuff all my gender variety. I can try it all on and not have to wear any of it permanently. I hate it when it feels like people are trying to shrink the space by not allowing masculine or feminine in it.

And I agree that there is a degree of shaming that is directed toward butches who identify with and are comfortable in their own femininity. I just don’t think it has that much of an impact because if you are butch and still identify with your femininity you are way past being moved by misogynistic bullshit. By necessity you would have developed a degree of self-assuredness that would render you somewhat bulletproof. Of course if it’s from a partner, a woman you are dating, or someone you are interested in, kevlar is not impenetrable.

In answer to the OP’s question about gender pressure from other butches and masculine people, I personally have experienced more pressure to amp up my masculinity from femme partners. Well, not so much to amp up, but I have experienced a degree of anxiety from some partners when I have dressed in women’s clothes. I am prone to do this upon occasion, either for a job or sometimes just because I feel like it. There has never been a time when female clothing has not been a part of my wardrobe, nor has their been a time when male clothing has not been a part of my wardrobe. When I was younger guys’ jeans fit me best because I am not well endowed in the hip/ass department. Women’s jeans used to look like I was wearing riding breeches. I have spread a bit though so I doubt that would be a problem. But anyway the point is gender bending in any form is anxiety provoking for some people to witness. Even if you are simply bending your gender back around full circle.

Anyway it’s probably obvious by the length of this post that I find the topic intriguing. I find any conversation or topic valuable that celebrates the fact that, for many, butch is not simply a synonym for male. Personally for me it has nothing to do with male at all. Masculinity? Yes, of course, certainly, at least to a degree. But that’s been done to death in my opinion. For me, delving into the identity of butch with the quantifiers of female, woman, feminine and/or femininity is always a treat especially because I don’t think it gets looked at with any depth, especially in regard to femininity. Mostly we just skim the surface of butch femininity (if we go there at all). I love exploring the feminine side of butch.

To me femininity isn’t all about looks, I don’t think it is about wearing make up or how you dress or throw a ball or any shit like that. It is about how you think. It’s about how you relate to the world, to yourself, to others. It’s about how you express yourself. I think it is a mindset and one needs to be able to separate truly feminine from what society teaches us to believe feminine means.

You can be female and own a masculine identity, just like you can be male and own a feminine identity. It’s not easy but it’s doable. There is even support and acceptance available from certain communities. But if you are female and claim a masculine identity and want acceptance and the easy road you need to turn your back on femininity. Gender is closely monitored and because of the shit that we have been fed since birth we unconsciously need ways to find congruency in our choices. Male/masculinity is highly valued and well guarded, the borders diligently patrolled so that if you straddle the edges you need to leave your femininity behind. You can gain access even with a vagina but you must denounce it in some way. At the very least you must denounce femininity. You can keep female. Maybe even woman, but you cannot flaunt femininity in the face of masculinity. I mean of course you can do it, but you will marginalize yourself even more than you already are. And we are pretty far out in those margins already. There is little outward reward for a butch to claim femininity. But for those of us who do claim it the personal rewards are well worth the negative experiences. I don’t know if I am being clear enough but this is so long already I probably should stop here.

[ProfPacker]

very poignant and well said. Thank you

[BullDog]

I have thought about this... I honestly don't see myself as very feminine at all. I am not trying to puff out my chest and say I am uber 100% masculine. I just don't see much femininity within myself. Perhaps others do, I don't know. No one has ever mentioned me being feminine or having a feminine side, but perhaps some do see that in me. I am very sensitive. I suppose some might see that as my feminine side. I do not. I am not mechanically inclined at all. A few femmes, including a former femme partner (no one from this site) have ridiculed me for it. If you want me to fix your car or build you a house, you are fresh out of luck. If you want me to prepare and file your taxes or write you a story, that I can do. I do consider myself most definitely female and woman. I am a masculine lesbian/queer female- for me that is what butch is. I definitely embrace my female masculinity and it definitely feels natural (subject of course to all the socialization I have received throughout my entire life). My masculinity is not tied to being male. I don't feel male at all. I am a masculine female.

To me, masculine and feminine are more about energy and mindset (thank you Tick). I don't think masculinity is solely "owned" by men nor femininity "owned" by women. It's hard to talk about because the qualities that I consider masculine are not easy to define, they tend to be fairly amorphous but at the same time unmistakable.

In butch femme communities, it seems there is a tendency to think if an FTM knits, he is an FTM who knits. If a butch woman or female identified butch knits, she must be a soft butch, not as butch as some others. There is nothing wrong if that term resonates with you, but it does seem to me to feel like "butch lite." I just get the sense if you claim female and/or woman there really isn't much room for you to express yourselves in ways that are associated with woman or femininity without getting sent down a few notches on the "butch scale." Of course, not everyone does this, but the butch continuum scale really does seem to be there in the background, and sometimes the foreground, at all times.

[The_Lady_Snow]

So far what we have in common as far as who perpetuates this problem is Femmes...

I wonder why that is, I would have to guess it's ingrained ism's and gender expectations being carried over into the *rainbow*, I would also take a guess at folks/women/female bodied people coming out later in life and bringing in the rigid gender expectations and such.

So how do we combat this? Talk about it? Stop it?


Are butches who enable these expectations as responsible for this?

[The_Lady_Snow]

P.S. - Regarding the if an FTM knits he's just an FTM that knits, I don't truly believe that to be true, gawd forbid weatherboi show any sign of doing anything perceived as *feminine* let's say like...

slave to a Femme Dom


He's not just a guy who is owned


He's reduced to sub human, dismissed, ignored, called a half of a person, so no sometimes even FTM's.boys.bois get shit for even having an ounce of perceived , assigned or imposed *femininity* It makes me irritable when it's broad stroked so much in these convos, I think we should leave that seperate because it's different kinds of struggles...

[Stronghealer]

My opinion : I do not like boxes- in any form.
I do not like when attributes are masculinized or feminized


I get that it is difficult to be a victim of society : it is scary to be yourself, especially with all these social constructs.
Be brave.
Be yourself.
Ask for support.

[Martina]

So far what we have in common as far as who perpetuates this problem is Femmes...

I wonder why that is, I would have to guess it's ingrained ism's and gender expectations being carried over into the *rainbow*, I would also take a guess at folks/women/female bodied people coming out later in life and bringing in the rigid gender expectations and such.

So how do we combat this? Talk about it? Stop it?


Are butches who enable these expectations as responsible for this?

When I was venting on the stereotypes thread, it was mostly about the expectations butches have placed on me. Not entirely, but mostly. I think that when butches who date femmes write, it's mostly about femmes.

Gender presentation is something we are desired for. We all want to be desired. And the people we date sometimes would like to make a few changes so we better fit their desires. Never a good thing, but quite common. Those are the times most of us feel gender policing or at least the times when it can wound most deeply.

So, I am going to have more stories about butches, and butches who date femmes are going to have more stories about femmes.

I do have stories about femmes who have policed me too. Again, when I first dated a femme in the r/t San Francisco butch-femme community, it was as if I had poured chum into a shark tank.

[Cin]

One of the things I find interesting about femininity is even if you just look at the straight community, not all women are thrilled to be called feminine. But I can’t say I’ve met a man who had a problem with being called masculine.

And for me it isn’t that only femmes perpetuate the problem, it’s that I only hear them. I don’t care that much what some guy says. When my partner expresses to me how she feels about something it makes an impression on me. Much more so than something a masculine identified friend would say. I could have phrased that better in my post. I certainly don’t think femmes or women are the problem. I think we are all victims of a patriarchal society. Women are harmed much more by misogyny than are men. It would be cruel and counter productive to lay the blame for misogynistic beliefs at the feet of femmes or women in general for that matter.

[The_Lady_Snow]

So is it competition?

Why is it that feminine gets squashed down and not celebrated?

I should of said the online common denominator so far in this thread is Femme's, if we (Femme's) are putting expectations of gender presentation and femininity is being squashed, isn't that a problem we should discuss?

Butches perpetuate it when they adopt very specific *masculine* markers as well. no?

Am I reading wrong? I only have these kinds of confusing conversations online about how butch is or should be, out here in real time butch is, well butch.

Wearing lip gloss doesn't take away from that, here (online) it seems to be different, it's almost like an anomaly in this venue, it's baffling, hence my earlier questions...

[stargazingboi]

"When my partner expresses to me how she feels about something it makes an impression on me."

Very true...the closer we are to someone the more the words touch us. Their words can build us up or break us down. Reflecting on my past, I indeed have many stories of comments made to me by femme's that hit me harder than things I observed in social settings because the relationship was closer with that person than the others. It is for that reason I would most likely be apt to use one of those stories as an example, because this topic is so personal.

However, I'm not sure that I personally can say that I have more stories of one than the other. I tend to think I personally have witnessed an equal number of masculine and feminine folks making judgmental comments regarding gender expression.

[Martina]

] it's almost like an anomaly in this venue, it's baffling, hence my earlier questions...

Yeah, HB and Bulldog were talking about how it's only online. I do not -- or did not -- find that. I found some of all this in the r/t community -- though much less.

Example of r/t being better -- I attended a few femme posse meetings in the SF Bay area many years ago, and I know they had politics, but I was pretty unaware. What I did see was a new femme come into the group who had never worn makeup, but wanted to learn how. No judgement, lots of help. Lots of fun. A lot of those women had been andro dykes at one point. Many had not, but their world was full of people of every possible gender -- it's SF -- so there was no judgement.

Example of it being worse -- the incredible -- INCREDIBLE -- amount of "ewwing" and gagging and insulting comments I got when I dated a femme and continued to attend events -- it was mind-blowing. I don't care anymore, so I guess that's forgiveness, but I will never forget. Trashy behavior like I had never seen back home. People calling each other out on public streets. Fights over who talked to whose boyfriends/girlfriends. These folks weren't kids either. I don't know. There is some connection in my mind between extreme performance of gender and this drama-soaked environment. I didn't see it as much in leather or among dykes outside that community. Maybe it was chivalry gone bad.

[Kobi]

So far what we have in common as far as who perpetuates this problem is Femmes...

I wonder why that is, I would have to guess it's ingrained ism's and gender expectations being carried over into the *rainbow*, I would also take a guess at folks/women/female bodied people coming out later in life and bringing in the rigid gender expectations and such.

So how do we combat this? Talk about it? Stop it?


Are butches who enable these expectations as responsible for this?



When I see "perpetuating a problem" and "enabling expectations", what I am hearing is "blame". I may again be misunderstanding you but this is what is behind my response.

No one is responsible for my identity but me. I am who I am based on a combination of innate factors and life experiences. Life experiences have helped me to both define and refine that identity as I encounter things that feel right to me for me, and encounter things that dont feel right to me and for me.

Having said that, we still send messages to one another thru the things we say, how we say them, and where we say them.

What I find in the butch femme community is a blurring of sorts. We have mixed genders, and mixed sexual orientations. We also have a desire to be inclusive and accepting of diversity which, it seems to me, is supposed to be accomplished by blending into something generic rather than having respectful boundaries for distinct differences.

If we want to address it as a community, it seems to me, we need to be willing to walk the talk. If we want to celebrate peoples diversity, our language and behavior needs to reflect this. Not all butches are male. Not all butches are female. A transman is not the same as a female id butch, or a male id butch, or a transgender person. How can we celebrate diversity when we call them all "butch"?

Being respectful of boundaries is another way to address this community wide. We all need and deserve our own space regardless of how we id. There are issues that are unique to us and that space should be respected.

As a woman and a lesbian, I find it very intrusive when male id people find the need to make their presence known in a thread for lesbians. It has nothing to do with them. As a woman and a lesbian, it feels like a violation, voyeuristic, and indicative of male privilege and entitlement.

I feel the same way when I see male ids make their presence known in femme threads. Do you really want to have sexually suggestive comments made indiscriminately when you are talking about what makes you feel sexy? Or when you are sharing lingerie pictures?

I also feel the same for the trans threads. Transfolks do not need my opinions on their experience. It is their experience not mine.

Another way we can address boundaries, is to be mindful of the info we are sharing and its appropriateness to the topic at hand. Again, I am mindful of lesbian space, so when someone comes into a thread about the lesbian experience, addresses it, and then has to bring other ids into their response, it sends a message. To me, it is a "yeah but" message. "Yeah but" is an invalidating message.

Sometimes it is important to pull something apart, to see where its origins lie. I dont know that this is one of those things. Sometimes we just need to be mindful that everything we do and say or dont do and say sends a message to other people. What may be more important is are we aware of the message we are sending? And, are we sending the message we want to send?

[Play]

"Do you experience gender pressure from other butches or masculine
people to amp up your masculinity or tone down your femininity in order to
*qualify* as butch? Have you ever found yourself exerting gender pressure on
self-identified butches? If you are not butch, have you ever found yourself
pressuring butches to behave, dress, etc in more masculine ways than is
natural?"

In repsonse to the original post...

No, I do not feel pressure from butches or femmes to be anything other
than who I am. This could be due to the fact that my personality leaves
no room for criticism from others as to how I "do me". Not to imply that I
am insensitive to the feelings of others, but I am more sensitive to being
true to myself. I wouldn't be open to anyone projecting their ideals of how
I should act or dress onto me.

Come to think of it, I have made judgment of someone's "butchness".
After reflection, it really wasn't about "butchness" at all. But it had more
to do with how they morally or ethically conducted themselves instead of
appearance or mannerisms. Of course, that is a people issue not a
butch/femme one. As someone who relates the OFOS butch school of
thought, I find that label to be more relatable to people closer to my
age (50, very soon). With age and experience I find labels mean less and
less to me. In my interactions with folks, I look for the intent in their hearts.
When I was younger I might look at the outward appearance first....but now
I am more inclined to realize that the exterior has very little to do with whom
I am attracted to or connect with.

[The_Lady_Snow]

When I see "perpetuating a problem" and "enabling expectations", what I am hearing is "blame". I may again be misunderstanding you but this is what is behind my response.

No one is responsible for my identity but me. I am who I am based on a combination of innate factors and life experiences. Life experiences have helped me to both define and refine that identity as I encounter things that feel right to me for me, and encounter things that dont feel right to me and for me.

Having said that, we still send messages to one another thru the things we say, how we say them, and where we say them.

What I find in the butch femme community is a blurring of sorts. We have mixed genders, and mixed sexual orientations. We also have a desire to be inclusive and accepting of diversity which, it seems to me, is supposed to be accomplished by blending into something generic rather than having respectful boundaries for distinct differences.

If we want to address it as a community, it seems to me, we need to be willing to walk the talk. If we want to celebrate peoples diversity, our language and behavior needs to reflect this. Not all butches are male. Not all butches are female. A transman is not the same as a female id butch, or a male id butch, or a transgender person. How can we celebrate diversity when we call them all "butch"?

I have never equated butch to male or imposed male on butches, so if you could be clear who is perpetuating this?

Being respectful of boundaries is another way to address this community wide. We all need and deserve our own space regardless of how we id. There are issues that are unique to us and that space should be respected.

I am a fan of respected space.

As a woman and a lesbian, I find it very intrusive when male id people find the need to make their presence known in a thread for lesbians. It has nothing to do with them. As a woman and a lesbian, it feels like a violation, voyeuristic, and indicative of male privilege and entitlement.

I believe when this happens we have options to report or ask the people to leave or exit the convo, I know I have done this in the past in certain Femme threads.


I feel the same way when I see male ids make their presence known in femme threads. Do you really want to have sexually suggestive comments made indiscriminately when you are talking about what makes you feel sexy? Or when you are sharing lingerie pictures?


Honestly Kobi, this particular problem is just as much a butch problem as it is a male problem, the butches are no less guilty than the male id folks when it comes to being sexually inappropriate. I have been known to call on that, and it doesn't make me popular..


I also feel the same for the trans threads. Transfolks do not need my opinions on their experience. It is their experience not mine.


Another way we can address boundaries, is to be mindful of the info we are sharing and its appropriateness to the topic at hand. Again, I am mindful of lesbian space, so when someone comes into a thread about the lesbian experience, addresses it, and then has to bring other ids into their response, it sends a message. To me, it is a "yeah but" message. "Yeah but" is an invalidating message.

This particular issue is difficult for me because who gets to police who is lesbian or not? I know I was policed, so I chose dyke, how do we keep lesbians who are lesbians but other lesbians do not see them as lesbians out?

Sometimes it is important to pull something apart, to see where its origins lie. I dont know that this is one of those things. Sometimes we just need to be mindful that everything we do and say or dont do and say sends a message to other people. What may be more important is are we aware of the message we are sending? And, are we sending the message we want to send?




My questions and thoughts are in bold...

[imperfect_cupcake]

That's the thing. I like butches who are women. I like butches who are their own gender. I just can't equate sex (female or male) with gender (man, woman, butch, femme, bear, genderqueer, trans as gender). I personally get that a lot of my exes did not want to embrace the term "masculinity" because they felt it came with too much baggage. They wanted another word that was just for them and their gender. Which I get. I still personally have a residual twitch with the word myself. No, masculinity doesn't belong to men. The swastika actually doesn't belong to the nazis, it's eastern. But no matter how much I know that it means other things, the very first thing I think of when I see it, is hitler.
It's really hard, no, next to impossible, for me to say masculine without the same thing happening to me in my head. Probably why some butches struggle with the concept of being called feminine. They can't imagine femininity as any other thing than _______.

I tend to see most things as Nongendered to be honest. There are some things I cant help seeing as masculine but it's more an interplay between doer and item. than an actual "thing" ... I don't believe in "energy" or anything like that. I think it's a cop out word. What people talk about is movement, interaction. The way the body holds it's self we read as masculine or feminine. Because we were taught that. No other reason.

So my concept of "grace" like say the way Peter o Tool moved, crossed his legs, smoked and laughed, to me is ungendered but to someone else with a different back ground, less understanding of upper class British training of poise perhaps, would call it "faggy" or "effeminate" (feminine). Or tell me he has a "feminine energy about him" (argh... No he doesn't. You are talking about something you see, not an essentialist notion of being because it subjective. And if it's subjective, it CANT be essentialist)

Sorry bulldog I'm leaping off a word you used, not to get up your ass about it, but I see this "energy" word used all the time here used to describe and essentialist ideology about a persons being... And it's just not. It's the way they are viewed and for a reason the view has a bias toward. For example, the kids at school see me as having a "masculine" energy where as my friends see me as having a highly feminine "energy"

The kids at school mean : I'm assertive, I like to piss about with the boys, I like to talk about adventures, I laugh loudly and openly, I swear and am very confident about taking up space.

My friends mean: I dress very feminine, I flirt in a feminine style, I move my body in a feminine way. The kids at school don't see so much of that.

So which is it? Do I carry a masculine energy or a feminine energy? Could it be I don't have either and it's just how people have grown up with concepts and seeing those at the forefront of my behaviour? Probably.

I personally see myself as highly feminine because of certain traits and my love of feminine ritual.

I never put down a partner for doing anything they want that may be considered feminine. Go for it. Embrace it. Make it butch. I've seem butches pull off tiger striped bras and lip gloss. She also wore a disco silver lame soft ball jacket. She had MASSIVE huevos, that one lol... And no one Who knew her was ever in dispute about her being Butch. She has a presence of authority over herself. She dripped sex. Woof.

But yeah I have seen femmes and butches do it. Butches to the femmes and femmes to the butches. Mostly not with intent but sometimes incredibly so.

Mostly I feel pressure to be old school in my dating rituals in order to be desirable. I'm not. So I know my relative dateableness scale number is quite low. If I was more demure, quiet, giggled more, acted embarrassed and wanted someone to kiss me slowly and wrap their big strong arms around me and protect me...

I'm sure it would be easier. Alas. I am brassy, loud, and if anyone tell me what to do when I'm not naked, I get arsey. Plus I don't accept protection and care from people unless they have proved to me we have a caring friendship and hot sex. Oh well. My luck.

But yeah, I do feel a lot of pressure to conform in order to be desirable. So I get it.

[Kobi]

My questions and thoughts are in bold...

I have never equated butch to male or imposed male on butches, so if you could be clear who is perpetuating this?

I believe when this happens we have options to report or ask the people to leave or exit the convo, I know I have done this in the past in certain Femme threads.

Honestly Kobi, this particular problem is just as much a butch problem as it is a male problem, the butches are no less guilty than the male id folks when it comes to being sexually inappropriate. I have been known to call on that, and it doesn't make me popular..

This particular issue is difficult for me because who gets to police who is lesbian or not? I know I was policed, so I chose dyke, how do we keep lesbians who are lesbians but other lesbians do not see them as lesbians out?





Those were your points.

What I hear in every one is "yeah but", "yeah but" "yeah but" and "yeah but".

Sometimes we lose sight of the forest because the trees are in the way.

[BullDog]

My comment about knitting wasn't broad stroking or comparing struggles. Masculinity is heavily policed in society. A different example- people have far different reactions about little girls being tomboys than they do about little boys showing feminine traits like wanting to play with dolls. That isn't saying little boys struggles are harder than little girls or broad stroking. That's just my observation, and I do think it has to do with how masculinity is valued in society.

I think that masculinity in butch femme circles is also policed. Everyone who ids (butch, trans, FTM, etc) as masculine is under pressure with the "ick" and "less than" factors. Masculinity is also valued over femininity. I think there is an additional factor for female/woman where your masculinity is called into question more or in different ways- where it's basically you are not really butch if you do x, y or z. Obviously not everyone does it. Perhaps some disagree. That's fine. But no I wasn't broad stroking or doing any sort of "us vs them."

[The_Lady_Snow]

My comment about knitting wasn't broad stroking or comparing struggles. Masculinity is heavily policed in society. A different example- people have far different reactions about little girls being tomboys than they do about little boys showing feminine traits like wanting to play with dolls. That isn't saying little boys struggles are harder than little girls or broad stroking. That's just my observation, and I do think it has to do with how masculinity is valued in society.

I think that masculinity in butch femme circles is also policed. Everyone who ids (butch, trans, FTM, etc) as masculine is under pressure with the "ick" and "less than" factors. Masculinity is also valued over femininity. I think there is an additional factor for female/woman where your masculinity is called into question more or in different ways- where it's basically you are not really butch if you do x, y or z. Obviously not everyone does it. Perhaps some disagree. That's fine. But no I wasn't broad stroking or doing any sort of "us vs them."

I specifically did not quote you so not have this happen, I bounced off your post and I should of clarified (I usually do but I got lazy, that won't happen again)

I'm only trying to make sure that it's clear like you have above how masculinity/femininity are traits behaviours that do not belong to ANY specific gender.

Having one more than the other does not take away from whatever you (general) are.


I wanted to clarify, in case you were confused and thought my post was directed *at you*, it wasn't..

[BullDog]

Thanks Snow.

HB, I agree that describing or sensing someone else's "energy" is very subjective. It feels like a woo woo term to me, lol, but it is something I very much feel within myself and in other people's presence. It's like people have this buzz about them when they are in the room. Not very scientific or definite, I know.

[Martina]

Some people enjoy explaining most of their behaviors in terms gender. I remember a post I made about decorating, how I was currently into decorating with some very feminine touches. It had NOTHING to do with my gender. It was not an expression of me as femme. It was that I really liked those colors and those touches right now. Next year, I might be attracted to all steel and wood. (I don't decorate that often.) Anyway, some people see themselves in terms of layers and layers of complex gender expression. I do not see myself that way. If people entered that house and thought, "femme," it was on them. If they entered and thought "gay man," (I had roommates), that was also on them.

The music I like is favored by men, straight men over forty. It says nothing about my gender. It really doesn't. It says something about my geographical roots, my love of good writing, and my social class. But not a damned thing about my gender.

Gender does go deep for me. But it does not BEGIN to explain everything about me. People who explain so much about themselves in terms of the expression of their inner boy or girl -- it feels made up to me. But I don't know. I have no idea what their experience is. I have an acquaintance who is wiccan, and she hears the voices of gods and goddesses within her. Their voices and preferences shape her decisions. I do not doubt her experience, but it is as alien to me as understanding that my purchase of a bedspread is an expression of my gender. It might be for some folks. For me, it is not.

There are things about me that are feminine. I am a lot less feminine than some folks. But I have inclinations and mannerisms that make me clearly more feminine than not. But I sure do not try to understand most of my behavior in terms of gender. It feels false to me. It feels artificial. It feels like a construct placed on me. I do not experience that as liberating at all.

[macele]

Over the years I've run into many conversations with people off-site who have hit my radar as butch-ish, but who feel like certain "feminine" traits they possess or express somehow exclude them or distance them from butchness.

Among things I've specifically heard: haircuts, relationship to make-up, pronouns, sexual preferences, wearing women's clothes or undergarments, even prefered roles within a family or relationship, even jobs held.

This thread is intended as an opportunity for celebration of the femininity which can co-exist with being a butch. Because I think it's better to celebrate where there has perhaps been some tendency in the direction of shaming in our community and in the greater community.

Do you experience gender pressure from other butches or masculine people to amp up your masculinity or tone down your femininity in order to *qualify* as butch? Have you ever found yourself exerting gender pressure on self-identified butches? If you are not butch, have you ever found yourself pressuring butches to behave, dress, etc in more masculine ways than is natural?




i've had butch friends to joke with me about not being butch. all in fun. nothing that i took serious. no pressure.

i'm butch, but i've always enjoyed my femme energy. in fact, i love it.

in the early stages of accepting that i am a lesbian, i had a problem with embracing being butch. my brain was so programmed to believe being butch was wrong, ... i had to clean out the clutter and let myself love me.

nat, great thread. i've enjoyed reading all the responses.

[Julie]

My comment about knitting wasn't broad stroking or comparing struggles. Masculinity is heavily policed in society. A different example- people have far different reactions about little girls being tomboys than they do about little boys showing feminine traits like wanting to play with dolls. That isn't saying little boys struggles are harder than little girls or broad stroking. That's just my observation, and I do think it has to do with how masculinity is valued in society.

I think that masculinity in butch femme circles is also policed. Everyone who ids (butch, trans, FTM, etc) as masculine is under pressure with the "ick" and "less than" factors. Masculinity is also valued over femininity. I think there is an additional factor for female/woman where your masculinity is called into question more or in different ways- where it's basically you are not really butch if you do x, y or z. Obviously not everyone does it. Perhaps some disagree. That's fine. But no I wasn't broad stroking or doing any sort of "us vs them."

I don't know. I raised 3 sons and all of my son's had baby dolls and doll houses. They also had trucks. Bennie loved pink and wore it proudly. Jacob took dance lessons and Isa loved dresses. All three of my son's cry. They each show emotion. Two out of three are straight and one is a Marine. And my Marine still cries openly.

And I agree with many... This is an online thing happening. In the real world, does this really exist? I am sure for many - but not in my world. I love the fact that Dreamer has feminine energy wrapped up inside that Masculine energy. Though, I do believe I am the one privy to seeing it. I feel blessed to see that side of hym. I am not so sure hy would be so open here to share it. Lots of judgment around these parts and honestly... I find the judgment deeper with the Lesbian butches than I do with the butches or trans folk who are more like Dreamer. (hope that made sense). Maybe some folk just aren't secure with themselves so much that they have to pound their chests.

I mean FFS -- Lesbians judge how we fuck! (that was another topic).

[BullDog]

Julie, it doesn't surprise me that your boys played with dolls. I am sure they had a very supportive environment for that. I don't see it as common though, but if there are lots of boys out playing with dolls that's awesome.

I am not sure if you are disagreeing with me, jumping off my post or what. Lesbian butches more judgmental?

Online world definitely different than in real time. It's also much easier for us to misunderstand each other than face to face.

I think I need some sleep.

[Stronghealer]

I am sorry I have not read all this thread....has anyone spoke of the pressure femmes put on other femmes-and - butches put on other butches : questioning how femme or butch they are...I have seen/experienced this a few times during my lifetime.


...

[stargazingboi]

I am sorry I have not read all this thread....has anyone spoke of the pressure femmes put on other femmes-and - butches put on other butches : questioning how femme or butch they are...I have seen/experienced this a few times during my lifetime.



...

In this thread its more dedicated to the butch/masculine and the ability to have a feminine side. I know that the femme side has been touched upon in the breaking stereo types thread.

[Julie]

Julie, it doesn't surprise me that your boys played with dolls. I am sure they had a very supportive environment for that. I don't see it as common though, but if there are lots of boys out playing with dolls that's awesome.

I am not sure if you are disagreeing with me, jumping off my post or what. Lesbian butches more judgmental?

Online world definitely different than in real time. It's also much easier for us to misunderstand each other than face to face.

I think I need some sleep.

I am jumping off your post. I know more boys that were raised with dolls and trucks, than I know who were not.

I do think Lesbian Butches are more judgmental. It seems all the chaos that I hear around here, is how Lesbian Butches want their own space, because they are Lesbians and they want to feel safe. Kinda makes me a bit crazy really. All this has done is divided us. I remember a Lesbian Butch saying that if a Femme was stone, then she wasn't really a Lesbian. REALLY? And I am not speaking of you Bulldog. We have so many beautiful dynamics here, yet we judge. Constantly judge one another on how we live our lives or how we fuck. Hearing a Femme cannot be a Femme, if she is with a trans guy! Really? I only hear this from the Lesbian Butches... Those who want to be known as Lesbian Butches.

So ya... I am a bit tired of how we treat one another.

[BullDog]

Julie, OK well, I am a lesbian butch so if feels a bit harsh to hear you say that, but I think I get what you are talking about. I think we should all respect space but I don't like things heavily zoned. I started a thread in the lesbian zone once and welcomed all lesbians, dykes, friends and allies. That is how I like the convos to go myself.

[C0LLETTE]

"I mean FFS -- Lesbians judge how we fuck! (that was another topic). "

Have lesbians been sent off into the wilderness again ?

I'm lost again.

[Julie]

Julie, OK well, I am a lesbian butch so if feels a bit harsh to hear you say that, but I think I get what you are talking about. I think we should all respect space but I don't like things heavily zoned. I started a thread in the lesbian zone once and welcomed all lesbians, dykes, friends and allies. That is how I like the convos to go myself.

As it should be Bulldog. The only thread I think butches/trans need to stay out of - are the Femme bonding threads. When they come in and with their sexual innuendo's and the same for butch/trans threads that are about being butch/trans and bonding.

And I am harsh, so of course I sound that way :-)

[tapu]

I do think Lesbian Butches are more judgmental. It seems all the chaos that I hear around here, is how Lesbian Butches want their own space, because they are Lesbians and they want to feel safe. Kinda makes me a bit crazy really. All this has done is divided us. I remember a Lesbian Butch saying that if a Femme was stone, then she wasn't really a Lesbian. REALLY? And I am not speaking of you Bulldog. We have so many beautiful dynamics here, yet we judge. Constantly judge one another on how we live our lives or how we fuck. Hearing a Femme cannot be a Femme, if she is with a trans guy! Really? I only hear this from the Lesbian Butches... Those who want to be known as Lesbian Butches.

So ya... I am a bit tired of how we treat one another.


I'm all in support of you expressing your thoughts and opinions like this, but I have to ask: How do you get away with it? I would be very reluctant to state any strong position myself, expecting immediate backlash and quick mod involvement.

Good for you, Julie. Though I don't agree with your opinions completely, I commend you for putting them out there and sticking to them.

[BullDog]

Lol, Julie about the harsh. I get the issue you speak of but I don't think going around saying lesbian butches are judgmental is going to help make things better, especially since not all of us do that. It seems just as judgmental to me, raising the specific issue does not.

I feel a lot of anti lesbian sentiment in bf circles. I also see some lesbians in bf spaces not respecting gender and diversity (insisting on calling everyone ladies, etc).

I am a stone butch and a lesbian. I've heard remarks from some lesbian butches here about stone or chest surgery being a male issue and they want their own space. I scratch my head, cuz I am a stone butch and a lesbian.

Then there are people who think of lesbian and stone butch being completely opposite of each other. They say they are stone and don't have lesbian sex. Again, I scratch my head.

So yeah I have seen lots of judgements from all different angles.

[Okiebug61]

So I have a high school friend who is moving up in the Mary Kay world she has to do 100 faces before and after by the end of March to move up. She asked if I would come to her studio. She knows I have never worn makeup but they have skin treatment programs only. Not only did I go, I also let her put a light coat of makeup on just to have a good before and after. I did not freak, but felt good that I helped a true friend. The makeup was so light that Red did not even notice! After almost 53 yrs my attitude about boxing myself in has totally gone away. I refuse to be assimilated. I have ten right to be totally free!

[Play]

I do think Lesbian Butches are more judgmental. It seems all the chaos that I hear around here, is how Lesbian Butches want their own space, because they are Lesbians and they want to feel safe. Kinda makes me a bit crazy really. All this has done is divided us. I remember a Lesbian Butch saying that if a Femme was stone, then she wasn't really a Lesbian. REALLY? And I am not speaking of you Bulldog. We have so many beautiful dynamics here, yet we judge. Constantly judge one another on how we live our lives or how we fuck. Hearing a Femme cannot be a Femme, if she is with a trans guy! Really? I only hear this from the Lesbian Butches... Those who want to be known as Lesbian Butches.

So ya... I am a bit tired of how we treat one another.

When I read this post I understood it for what it truly was, a personal
experience. As a butch lesbian, I'm sorry you have gone through dealing
with that type of attitude. Please don't judge all by the actions of one,
some, or even many. We are all individuals. (As with any subset of the
population there are good and bad.)

The potential backlash one gets from posting their own opinion or experience
is one of the reasons I have avoided these discussions for so long. A frank
discussion with exchange of ideas, opinions, and experiences without
condemnation or judgment would be refreshing to me.

Also, it is damn near impossible to hear "tone" in a post here on the forums.
While my writing style is on the formal side. I am a goofy smartass who is
far more likely to make you laugh than evoke anger.

"Life and let live" "Variety is the spice of life." "It takes all kinds"....
(insert any other cliche here as long as it is accepting and inviting to
continue individual expression)

[imperfect_cupcake]

Lol, Julie about the harsh. I get the issue you speak of but I don't think going around saying lesbian butches are judgmental is going to help make things better, especially since not all of us do that. It seems just as judgmental to me, raising the specific issue does not.

I feel a lot of anti lesbian sentiment in bf circles. I also see some lesbians in bf spaces not respecting gender and diversity (insisting on calling everyone ladies, etc).

I am a stone butch and a lesbian. I've heard remarks from some lesbian butches here about stone or chest surgery being a male issue and they want their own space. I scratch my head, cuz I am a stone butch and a lesbian.

Then there are people who think of lesbian and stone butch being completely opposite of each other. They say they are stone and don't have lesbian sex. Again, I scratch my head.

So yeah I have seen lots of judgements from all different angles.

This why, in person, I skip the ID thing completely and just go to the bit that matters to me, that they see themselves as women or genderqueer on some level and that in the bedroom they have at least part time, a dick. Or have fantasies about it and would like to try it. That I am happy to perform all sorts and various things on their vaginas, if they see their bits that way, I am a lesbian as well as a queer, but I tend to say descriptive desire words for them like hard, stiff, etc rather than wet and if that upsets or offends them or makes them feel invisible then we shouldn't be having sex, it's a bad match as I don't wish to make them feel devalued for who they are.

I'm happy to fist, gspot stim, hand use a dildo, vibrator etc, but describing what I'm doing as penetrating a vagina, even though that's what I'm doing and bloody enjoying it, doesn't really get me there. I may enjoy the feeling of wetness with my fingers, but I don't really enjoy the words aurally. I'm also happy to be with certain kinds of stones. I'm pretty inclusive and happy with many types of gender and sexuality. I'm happy I'm fairly flexible about this. I wish I was more flexible with being a sub, but I have learned through trying that tips just not within my capacity, no matter how much I wish I was mostly a domme or a true switch. I would have so many dates if I could hook up easily with brat switch butches (60% brat bottom, 40% service top/Top/Dom)The hills are thronging with them.

Do I feel pressured by femmes to conform? No. When a femme on line talks about the correct way to be femme, I roll my eyes. When a bunch are talking about being treated like a princess or courted and woo'd and swept off their feet and sighing, I feel like an alien species but I know so many femmes in person that are boxers, mechanics, forestry rangers etc and who would find that somewhat absurd. The ones in person I do know like that are Dommes. They want to be worshipped and adored and they will give back in truckloads, all they hot dominant sex a butch could ever want.

On line I just feel very different. In person I sometimes do, but mostly not. A chunk more than I did in London. But really it's the butches that I feel not up to par with. Not the femmes. I watch all the fawning back and forth and feel quite lumpy and Lurch like. Because it seems people "get" that way of flirting in bf on line space. In person I piss ass about and smart ass and laugh and use dark humour. On line... I just can't do the flutter and giggle and shimmy and oh you big daddy you, can I sit on your lap... I just can't. It's so not me. So it looks contrived. It probably isn't for every who is doing it but for me it would be.

And like Martina, I don't describe my experience in life engendered. I don't do things because I'm a femme or because I'm a woman. Having someone tell me "oh you picked that table because you are a woman" makes me very irked. Or telling me the same thing because I'm femme. Equally irked. It is very hard to come back from a place where butch and femme and genderqueer and trans just *is* (something you be) rather than... Placed into the language so so so much. (,something you talk about and define. And talk about some more. And point out. And state. And reference. And attach to ordering coffee).

<:/

[Kobi]

I am jumping off your post. I know more boys that were raised with dolls and trucks, than I know who were not.

I do think Lesbian Butches are more judgmental. It seems all the chaos that I hear around here, is how Lesbian Butches want their own space, because they are Lesbians and they want to feel safe. Kinda makes me a bit crazy really. All this has done is divided us. I remember a Lesbian Butch saying that if a Femme was stone, then she wasn't really a Lesbian. REALLY? And I am not speaking of you Bulldog. We have so many beautiful dynamics here, yet we judge. Constantly judge one another on how we live our lives or how we fuck. Hearing a Femme cannot be a Femme, if she is with a trans guy! Really? I only hear this from the Lesbian Butches... Those who want to be known as Lesbian Butches.

So ya... I am a bit tired of how we treat one another.



Julie, this is so incredibly offensive, hateful, and judgmental it is not even worth responding to.

[Chancie]

I am jumping off your post. I know more boys that were raised with dolls and trucks, than I know who were not.

I do think Lesbian Butches are more judgmental. It seems all the chaos that I hear around here, is how Lesbian Butches want their own space, because they are Lesbians and they want to feel safe. Kinda makes me a bit crazy really. All this has done is divided us. I remember a Lesbian Butch saying that if a Femme was stone, then she wasn't really a Lesbian. REALLY? And I am not speaking of you Bulldog. We have so many beautiful dynamics here, yet we judge. Constantly judge one another on how we live our lives or how we fuck. Hearing a Femme cannot be a Femme, if she is with a trans guy! Really? I only hear this from the Lesbian Butches... Those who want to be known as Lesbian Butches.

So ya... I am a bit tired of how we treat one another.

That's some ugly shit.

[Julie]

Because I speak my truth based on what I have seen or felt? I think it's really offensive as well to be placed in a box and told you are not welcome places or do not fit it.

Ya, that's some ugly shit.

[tapu]

Because I speak my truth based on what I have seen or felt? I think it's really offensive as well to be placed in a box and told you are not welcome places or do not fit it.

Ya, that's some ugly shit.



Pot, kettle?

Seriously and constructively though, I think it would improve the overall situation if the same degree of "tamping down" on controversial opinions were applied across the board.

[Julie]

Julie, this is so incredibly offensive, hateful, and judgmental it is not even worth responding to.



You did respond Kobi! Though under handed as it might be. Respond you did.

Offensive? Nah. - Just honest about my feelings.

Hateful? I don't hate lesbians. For god sake, I came out as one and celebrate that part of my history. I have just learned from online forums that dykes like me, don't really fit in with the Lesbian culture here, nor do many based upon what many have stated.

Judgmental? Ya, I'm tired of people telling people how to fuck, how to identify based on their fucking and what makes a butch BUTCH or femme FEMME. Not long ago in a far distant land, I read somewhere that femme's are bottoms.

Bulldog, I did not intend to imply that all Lesbians behave this way on this site. I am sorry if it felt like I was boxing all Lesbians together. My issue in the real world with Lesbians is how I have been treated (me) based on having nails or how I dress or the fact my partner is masculine. Or how many of my other friends have been excluded or judged based on their masculinity or how they identify.

And seriously, what is Lesbian sex anyway? I forget.

Play, thank you for recognizing immediately that I am typing behind a computer screen and you are not able to hear my tone.

I used to celebrate that I was a Femme Lesbian, until I was told over and over and over what that meant. Now, I am simply Femme, Dyke or Queer or all three of them wrapped into one. I also am comfortable with simply Gay.

And yes, these are my personal experiences and based on how I have seen others treated. Honestly Play, I could care less what you say about me (not you) at this point. I am so comfortable with how I live my life and love and make love and fuck and communicate. I think it becomes triggery for me, when I read that certain "subset's" of our culture are not welcome.

Imagine being the partner to a butch. You identify as a Femme Lesbian. You have been in this community for 20 years (example) and then all of a sudden, your beloved partner wants to transition. Not only is your partner shunned from the community, but you are now viewed as a heterosexual. This is hurtful and damaging. Who in the world nominated this Lesbian Task Force?

Tapu, who knows. Perhaps because I did not make blanket statements, such as Femme = Bottom. <shrugs>

Julie

[Julie]

Pot, kettle?

Seriously and constructively though, I think it would improve the overall situation if the same degree of "tamping down" on controversial opinions were applied across the board.

I prefer a Kettle!

Let's take a sensitivity class together Tapu!

[Medusa]

Ok folks, we are getting reports about this thread.

Julie - It's ok to speak about your own experiences, just don't generalize. You were fine until you said "Lesbians judge how we...".

All - There are some great examples in this thread of people engaging respectfully with Julie on what they thought was problematic about what she said about Lesbians and I'd prefer that if you are having a problem with something someone said, you engage with that person respectfully rather than cyber-slapping them. It's not productive and does nothing to further the conversation.

On a personal note, it is difficult to moderate discussions where people are talking about things they have experienced and how they perceive other people or other groups of people. Sure, people like to go "Well, if you insert "Femme" or "Trans" into that discussion then you'd moderate!!" but it is not that black and white.
This is Butch/Femme/Trans space. It's women's space. It is not exclusively Lesbian space just as it is not exclusively Femme or Trans or Butch space. The intention for this space, however, stands as Butch, Femme, and Trans space and we have GOT to be able to discuss the nuances specific to our community reasonably and as healthy as possible.

We have moderated a fair amount of folks for talking about what they have experienced in the Lesbian community and I have often felt really frustrated by that. Not because I don't think that we need to be very careful about making generalizations (of course this is important!), but because I have felt like it is somehow "taboo" to talk about the very real marginalization that Butches, Femmes, and Transpeople have experienced in the Lesbian community. It's especially frustrating when that conversation gets squashed in Butch,Femme, Trans space. Why? Because that's a very real conversation that is valid, truthful, and important.

The other thing that is frustrating is that people like Julie *who identify as a Lesbian* are being silenced from talking about their own community. I would be agog if I, as a Femme (who consequently identifies as a Lesbian as well), was being told by TPTB that I can't call it out when other Femmes marginalize me. Do we really want that in our community? Do we really want a lily-white, washed up for the masses version of history? Do we want sacred cows here?

Look, I'm not saying that Lesbians should be villified, or stereotyped, or generalized as "evil, humorless crustbuckets who slash and burn all things Butch, Femme, and Trans". That's bull and we all know it. We are all worthy of respect and I don't want the Lesbians in this community feeling targeted or disrespected just like I don't want the Butches, Femmes, Transfolks, and intersectionalized identities feeling disrespected.

With that said, can we all please agree that this is a valid discussion worthy of our best choices of words? Worthy of our best effort to speak from our own experience with specificity and in a way that honors this space and the discussion? And can we please follow some of the fine examples in this thread of debating with respect so that this discussion can continue without a bunch of acidity and unhealthy back and forth?

These discussions ("these" meaning any discussion that involves teasing apart gender and idnetity) always run the risk of offending one or multiple people. It's going to happen. We're human and our lenses are all different. Hopefully we can all commit to doing this with as much good will as possible so let's check our "stuff" at the door and work toward understanding one another. K?

Thanks,
Angie

[tapu]

Tapu, who knows. Perhaps because I did not make blanket statements, such as Femme = Bottom. <shrugs>

Julie


Julie, what you said IS a blanket statement--that's the point some here are trying to make to you. Medusa, among others.

And not to put too fine a point on it, when I made my egregious statement, I was talking purely from my experience--a point I attempted to clarify and I think Medusa got.

[Cin]

I’m really confused. This thread is called “in celebration of butch femininity” and the OP asks about “how certain "feminine" traits they possess or express somehow exclude them or distance them from butchness. She asked if you experience gender pressure from other butches or masculine people to amp up your masculinity or tone down your femininity in order to *qualify* as butch? Have you ever found yourself exerting gender pressure on self-identified butches? If you are not butch, have you ever found yourself pressuring butches to behave, dress, etc in more masculine ways than is natural?“

How did this become about lesbians? How do lesbians pressure butches to be more masculine? I’m not saying lesbian should be a sacred cow or anything, but it feels more like they are scapegoats, I just don’t get how a conversation about lesbians fits in this thread. I certainly have never been pressured by lesbians to be more masculine. And this thread isn’t about the different ways that different types of people have pressured people in general. I’m sure I could come up with a list of people who have tried to pressure me into being other than I am but it would have nothing to do with butchness or this thread. Maybe I’m missing something so could somebody explain to me how lesbians pressure butches to be more masculine.


I love the fact that Dreamer has feminine energy wrapped up inside that Masculine energy. Though, I do believe I am the one privy to seeing it. I feel blessed to see that side of hym. I am not so sure hy would be so open here to share it. Lots of judgment around these parts and honestly... I find the judgment deeper with the Lesbian butches than I do with the butches or trans folk who are more like Dreamer. (hope that made sense). Maybe some folk just aren't secure with themselves so much that they have to pound their chests.



I’m trying to figure out what is meant here. Would Dreamer find it difficult to share hys feminine side here because there is lots of judgment from lesbians, lesbian butches and female identified butches to be more masculine? Is that your experience? And judgment comes from female identified butches who are not secure in their masculinity so they have to pound their chests?

I know in my experience it is the more masculine identified people and those who love them that judge femininity in butches harshly. i have felt pressure from partners but nothing like the judgment i feel from male identified people. It just means more to me from partners. And I have never been pressured to be more masculine from lesbians or lesbian butches. :confused:

[Julie]

My quoting tool is not working Miss Tick, so I am going to do my best to reply.

I probably should not have commented on this tread, as I am not butch or trans. That is the first mistake I made.

I also probably should have rethought the statement about Dreamer, because I am not Dreamer. I should have left it at - I get to see that side of Dreamer. Not that it is feminine the way my feminine side is, because clearly we are different and that is what makes the relationship so beautiful for us. And perhaps feminine/masculine energy means something different to all of us. I do not equate male and masculine the same. Our real time friends, which include trans, MI Butches, Stone Butches and FI Butches, have never judged either of us based on our masculine or feminine energy. That really has come (my personal experience) from the Lesbian community that I have encountered. This is all my experience Miss Tick.

Let's say I have a friend who is trans and he lives his life as a male and he is a submissive bottom, there is an automatic judgment that is placed. And I can tell you, it is not made by other transfolk or MI Butches or most femme's for that matter. It is made by the chest pounding Lesbians that want their own space and don't recognize these people as having a right.

I can certainly see where my writing was confusing, in retrospect after reading, it confused me. So I thank you for asking. Sometimes I get a bit passionate and like all of us am not always concise in how I communicate. I thank you for not jumping down my throat and asking thoughtful questions.

As far as generalizing "All Lesbians," early in my writing. Not fair on my part to do so and I own this. Again, coming from an emotional and not a logical stance. I own it and I will learn from this.

Julie

[C0LLETTE]

I've been reading this thread and I am now utterly confused.
I come from a time when being a "lesbian" was a good and proud thing. When did this change and would someone please define "lesbian" for me so Ill know what to watch out for.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I've been reading this thread and I am now utterly confused.
I come from a time when being a "lesbian" was a good and proud thing. When did this change and would someone please define "lesbian" for me so Ill know what to watch out for.


Ms Collette that is a WHOLE other thread....

:blink:

[*Anya*]

I've been reading this thread and I am now utterly confused.
I come from a time when being a "lesbian" was a good and proud thing. When did this change and would someone please define "lesbian" for me so Ill know what to watch out for.

Kernerman English Learner's Dictionary

lesbian(noun)ˈlɛz bi ən
a woman who is sexually attracted to other women

Wiktionary

lesbian(Noun)
A homosexual female, a female who is sexually or romantically attracted to other females.
lesbian(Adjective)
Homosexual; preferring female romantic or sexual partners.

A non-chest-pounding lesbian here.

Honestly, I had been feeling really good about the acceptance I was feeling on the Planet for everyone the last few months.

For everyone.

[C0LLETTE]

Ms Collette that is a WHOLE other thread....

:blink:

Ok. Is there such a thread or does everyone else here just know what everyone else means when the term "lesbian" is bandied about. I see it here in this thread quite often and seemingly with only negative connotations so I began to wonder if that was central to the definition. I'd be happy to read up on this if you can suggest an appropriate thread.

[Parker]

I was going to write out a post, but since I am one of those dreaded female ID'd butch lesbians, my post probably would have been too judgmental, since, you know, all butch lesbians are judgy and shit.

Damn! :(

[The_Lady_Snow]

Kernerman English Learner's Dictionary

lesbian(noun)ˈlɛz bi ən
a woman who is sexually attracted to other women

Wiktionary

lesbian(Noun)
A homosexual female, a female who is sexually or romantically attracted to other females.
lesbian(Adjective)
Homosexual; preferring female romantic or sexual partners.

A non-chest-pounding lesbian here.

Honestly, I had been feeling really good about the acceptance I was feeling on the Planet for everyone the last few months.

For everyone.

Ok. Is there such a thread or does everyone else here just know what everyone else means when the term "lesbian" is bandied about. I see it here in this thread quite often and seemingly with only negative connotations so I began to wonder if that was central to the definition. I'd be happy to read up on this if you can suggest an appropriate thread.



I know *I* would never be allowed to claim lesbian, and have been told I am not one, so I am unsure how this conversation is going to roll. I think that is what the problem is, some lesbians are being erased, or at least their pasts are or something is going on.

It's being policed, it has been policed and I believe that is a problem. *ME* personally, I don't care anymore, I gripped dyke claws and all and no one is taking that too, my gender (Femme) isn't gonna be erased. I use gay, and queer, but I always feel like I can never ever claim lesbian because I may fit the noun version, but sometimes I don't fit the adjective cause I like to fuck/date across the gender spectrum.(unless you are cisgender male then no way)


It's a tough one.

[BullDog]

Well, the way I see it there are chest thumpers in every group. I have faced more judgement and hostility in BF online communities than I in real time lesbian communities (have faced some there too)- most of it hasn't been from lesbians. There are judgmental people in every group. If you are going to get some hurtful feelings it's probably going to be from your dating pool and people who don't id the same way as you. It's not right no matter who does it.

It seems when lesbian complain about blanket statements, we are then told there needs to be room for people to talk about there experiences. I don't see any lesbians saying that all lesbians are perfect or that no lesbians have ever been judgmental. I don't get why it is taken to such extremes. There's people in every group that are judgmental and there plenty of very accepting and nice people in every group as well.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Well, the way I see it there are chest thumpers in every group. I have faced more judgement and hostility in BF online communities than I in real time lesbian communities (have faced some there too)- most of it hasn't been from lesbians. There are judgmental people in every group. If you are going to get some hurtful feelings it's probably going to be from your dating pool and people who don't id the same way as you. It's not right no matter who does it.

It seems when lesbian complain about blanket statements, we are then told there needs to be room for people to talk about there experiences. I don't see any lesbians saying that all lesbians are perfect or that no lesbians have ever been judgmental. I don't get why it is taken to such extremes. There's people in every group that are judgmental and there plenty of very accepting and nice people in every group as well.


I believe EVERYONE has been broad stroked so far in this thread in one form or another, from ftms to butch, to lesbians so on. I don't see how we are going to have these conversations if we don't leave personal beefs, personalizing things and other stuff that is going to blurr the lines and not allow the conversation to flow.


There have been a lot of ugly things said to Femme's who date xyz by lesbians here, there have been ugly things said by xyz to trans folk, there has been a militant stance on who can identify as xyz or lmno.

I don't get it, I never will.


This is a very difficult conversation to have because we all have such vast experiences across the gender spectrum here on BFP.

I don't deal with these issues out there, we just are, we're queer walking about the world, here it's like walking on land mines, it's very disconcerting.

[BullDog]

Snow, I honestly don't know what posts you are referring to where people have been broad stroked in this thread. I will come back later to read. If you are talking on the site in general, then yes I agree it does happen and it has happened to every single group.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Snow, I honestly don't know what posts you are referring to where people have been broad stroked in this thread. I will come back later to read. If you are talking on the site in general, then yes I agree it does happen and it has happened to every single group.

either way, it shouldn't be happening, regardless of group.

Why is it that we can't get a on handle that?

When there is an implication that masculine folk are the only ones tromping around in threads or spaces, that's not true, we all do it, Femme's do it, Butches do it (that covers all butch identities) Guys do it etc. I had to clarify to Kobi I believe that it wasn't just a *male identity* problem. This is a merry go round conversation we can't just blame one sub group of the community, we're all crossing boundaries up in here... Make sense?

[Julie]

Damn right there are chest thumpers everywhere. I am a chest thumping Femme. I also believe we are all judgmental at times and we all get defensive. It is human nature. I will own my own failures in communicating my thoughts. I will own that I am judgmental. And hopefully I will stop and take a breath and learn from this. I will not come in here with miniscule passive aggressive statements. I will say what I am feeling, right or wrong. Not just leave a word bomb.

What is not okay for me, is when a person who identifies as a Lesbian on a Butch/Femme/Trans site and says... You don't belong in this space and you don't get to interject your opinion. What is not okay is shaming another for who they date, how they dress or how they identify and worse Bulldog, how they fuck. I don't care if you are a makeup wearing Butch who loves pantyhose. This does not take away from the Butch you are.

I came out as a proud Lesbian. I found my people. I was finally home and while there were masculine and feminine energies in these communities, they were Lesbian. They did not have space for masculine or feminine identified folk and certainly not for trans folk on either gender spectrum.

Again (for the zillionith (exaggerated) time) - Please (not you Bulldog) stop picking this one statement of mine apart. NOT ALL LESBIANS are like this! My mistake in making such a generalization. (I'm done apologizing for this).

[BullDog]

either way, it shouldn't be happening, regardless of group.

Why is it that we can't handle that?

I am in complete agreement. I said that in my previous post.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I am in complete agreement. I said that in my previous post.

Good to know!

[BullDog]

Over the years I've run into many conversations with people off-site who have hit my radar as butch-ish, but who feel like certain "feminine" traits they possess or express somehow exclude them or distance them from butchness.

Among things I've specifically heard: haircuts, relationship to make-up, pronouns, sexual preferences, wearing women's clothes or undergarments, even prefered roles within a family or relationship, even jobs held.

This thread is intended as an opportunity for celebration of the femininity which can co-exist with being a butch. Because I think it's better to celebrate where there has perhaps been some tendency in the direction of shaming in our community and in the greater community.

Do you experience gender pressure from other butches or masculine people to amp up your masculinity or tone down your femininity in order to *qualify* as butch? Have you ever found yourself exerting gender pressure on self-identified butches? If you are not butch, have you ever found yourself pressuring butches to behave, dress, etc in more masculine ways than is natural?

Hello, are there any butches who would like to celebrate butch femininity? It would be awesome to hear about it.

I personally think it is very cool when people have various blends of masculinity and femininity within themselves and love to hear about how they think about that and express that. I think I am mostly masculine, so not sure what else to add, but cool topic.

[C0LLETTE]

So, is that it then? -A lot of things got said.. then some hand waving by the weary, maybe some "agree to disagree" and it's over? I'm not so sure this can all be papered over so easily. It's obviously a contentious issue that keeps rearing up, over and over, and it does seem to invade many diverse threads. Maybe the weary need to let it play itself out.

Of course everyone could also be sent to their respective corners where they could only talk to their own kind but I betcha that wont work and what's the benefit of that. And, to complicate matters, it's not just what we talk about but also how and why we do it: some like the intellectual reasoning and have the vocabulary to do it, some need to vent in whatever terms are immediate; some have heard it all before; and I'm sure there are many more motivations.

Seems to me that the only solution is to: 1. make threads iron clad and have mods jump in at the first hint of divergence or tangent ( likely a path to upheaval) or 2. just let things go, pull out if you feel the thread has lost its bearings and there's little more of interest to you that is being said. The contentious issues wont die but they will go into a gentler coma for a while.

Thing is, there may be thousands of threads listed but there really do seem to be a very few themes. Everyone will surely get their chance again.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I hear your frustration. Perhaps opening a thread in the red zone about this issue and posting a link in this one might be a good idea. Although I don't agree with how Julie is communicating it, I fully understand her experience as I went through it when I came out as feminine into masculine in a Lesbian (as political, gender, social and feminist ID, not as a label for their sexuality). Luckily I escaped that community or I would have thought - and I did at the time - all lesbians were like that. I didn't ID as lesbian for four years because I thought that's what Lesbians WERE. I think a lot of us have been through that.
I now consider myself a queer AND a lesbian because my sexuality encompasses both. To me it's not an ID. It's just a name for PART of my sexuality. So I guess when I hear some femmes talk about "the Lesbians that told her how she was allowed to fuck and how judgemental they are" I personally hear a specific kind of lesbian and know who she is talking about, off the bat. Not all. Cause I'm a lesbian and I know she's definitely not talking about me. But then I am familiar with Julie and her posting style lol I'm just as ranty
I might not be so patient with a trans bloke I don't know going on about the Lesbians. I might get on my white horse and jab him with the pole I sometimes keep up my arse.

So sincerely, I think people have a lot to say about the issue. And if you think the conversation should be continued, start a thread and post a link. :)

[Martina]

Let's say I have a friend who is trans and he lives his life as a male and he is a submissive bottom, there is an automatic judgment that is placed. And I can tell you, it is not made by other transfolk or MI Butches or most femme's for that matter. It is made by the chest pounding Lesbians that want their own space and don't recognize these people as having a right.


It seems to me like butch and trans bottoms get a lot of shit from male-ID'd folks and femmes who like male-ID'd folks. Folks who like masculine-lead relationships and the fantasy that that is the norm. I have seen a LOT of that. I think that lesbians out in the world would possibly crap on a butch for being a butch, but for being a bottom? I am sure it has happened. But the ultra political lesbian we seem to be constructing as a straw man might delight in the masculine bottom / feminine Top arrangement. I don't know.

I also missed the statement that a stone femme wasn't a femme. That should have been moderated. It might have been. I didn't see it, as I said.

As to lesbians telling a femme she isn't a lesbian if she dates a transman, I can imagine that happening. I have seen it in the real world. But it shouldn't happen. I imagine it happens less and less. No lesbian or group of lesbians gets to tell anyone who can ID as lesbian, queer or whatever. It's an obnoxious conversation. I think most people do not cross that line anymore. Those who do are saying more about themselves than they are about whoever they are talking about.

The whole thing about lesbian space here. Kobi made an argument for it on this thread, and Julie thanked her post. Kobi and Snow also had an exchange re masculine people coming into threads and making prurient remarks that I thought was useful and interesting. Kobi was like masculine-ID'd people come in to threads and make unwelcome remarks. Snow said something like I have seen that from all kinds of butches, which is true. Kobi thanked that post. It's interesting to me that Kobi saw the behavior as more egregious coming from a male-ID'd folks. I kind of get that, but as a femme, I can tell you, it makes little difference. Kobi is not a femme, so she might miss that subtlety.

Historically, on b-f.com, where many of us have a previous online history together, lesbian-bashing was permitted and very common. A lot of butches and femmes, whether lesbian or not, have had a problematic relationship with lesbian communities in the United States. Transmen and their partners have had a particularly hard time. I do not know why there was so much pleasure taken in lesbian bashing on that site. Perhaps because there had been so much hurt. A number of us rose up and changed the culture there some by confronting the anti-lesbian sentiment. We got no support from the administrators or monitors of that site. On the contrary. But things did get a lot better.


We have moderated a fair amount of folks for talking about what they have experienced in the Lesbian community and I have often felt really frustrated by that. Not because I don't think that we need to be very careful about making generalizations (of course this is important!), but because I have felt like it is somehow "taboo" to talk about the very real marginalization that Butches, Femmes, and Transpeople have experienced in the Lesbian community. It's especially frustrating when that conversation gets squashed in Butch,Femme, Trans space. Why? Because that's a very real conversation that is valid, truthful, and important.
When this site was founded, it seemed like they were going to tolerate less of that. And that has been the case. I get that there are a lot of people who are still angry with the lesbian community and would like to express that.

IMO, if they do get that opportunity, it will not be pretty. We might go back to the way it was at b-f.com. But the idea that there is a lot of pent up rage is kind of unpleasant to think about.

Kobi has recently been the self-appointed spokesperson for lesbian feminism on the site, more or less policing lapses when she finds them. I find some of her arguments ludicrous, and her approach nearly always lacks finesse. But honestly, she does seem to feel like she's struggling for air here. And it may be true. Maybe she's the canary in the coal mine, and I ought to be paying more attention to her discomfort.

She did have an interesting post where she talked about trying to connect online with radical feminists and encountered some rabid old school cultural feminists who hate transfolk. She was like, no thanks. I am more at home on the planet with my friends. (I am paraphrasing freely.) Seriously though, if someone like Kobi can't make it here, then neither can I.

I don't give a tinker's damn what Kobi herself thinks of my reaction to this stuff. (We have never gotten along.) But if she, or people like her, are to be vilified, I am going to stand on their side. I do not volunteer to go back to the b-f.com days when it was open season on lesbians.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Regarding the thanking Martina, I want you to know that my usage of the thank button doesn't mean anything other than:

Thank for participating, if I have something else to say I may use a rep note, only if I have something kind to say or I have a question that is not disruptive. I swear the thank button is ridiculous on how it gets viewed, I don't even want to thank anymore cause it's assigned so much damn power...

It's hard to be polite in this venue because manners/politeness gets turned into xyz, also I totally agree, that be it butch or guy when someone tromps into a Femme space I am like wtf.

I also feel the same way when a Femme goes into Butch/Guy space but that is always more welcomed than not. That's weird to me how that works

Thanks for letting me rant

[tapu]

Kernerman English Learner's Dictionary

lesbian(noun)ˈlɛz bi ən
a woman who is sexually attracted to other women

Wiktionary

lesbian(Noun)
A homosexual female, a female who is sexually or romantically attracted to other females.
lesbian(Adjective)
Homosexual; preferring female romantic or sexual partners.

For everyone.


tapu's dictionary:

Got a pussy? Like pussy exclusively? Yer a lesbian.

[Martina]

tapu's dictionary:

Got a pussy? Like pussy exclusively? Yer a lesbian.

Really? So are you the one saying stone femmes are not lesbians? What was the point of this?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Really? So are you the one saying stone femmes are not lesbians? What was the point of this?



Yanno, had a male id'd person said something of this sort regarding say cock, equating xyz there would of been a shit storm in here, that's just down right ugly, ugly and erasing!

[tapu]

Really? So are you the one saying stone femmes are not lesbians? What was the point of this?

That definition doesn't disinclude stone femmes.

As for my point: that's pretty much the definition of lesbian in a practical sense. Some may wish to push certain parameters in certain ways, but that's how language works anyway. The situation I observe here in talking about anything like this is things deteriorate into fine-line arguments about essence: is or isn't. What if we use the general terms most use in practice and recognize that variation is inevitable and acceptable. Then we can mildly ask for clarification or define a real issue without what feels like policing going on.

[dykeumentary]

I'm sitting in the waiting room of an OB/GYN clinic, where I am getting treatment for an ongoing medical situation. I am feeling very unwelcome, because the people here think they know something about me because of how I look and how i am behaving.

I thought I'd read some threads on this site to not feel so alone in this super-heteronormative and gender-normative waiting room.

So I just wanted to add a friendly reminder that the people who post on this site are our allies, some better, some less better. But we are not the problem.

[BullDog]

Like pussy exclusively, huh? There is a more to having sex with a woman than that no matter how you id. Also, I am a lesbian stone butch, so mine is not involved. But yes I am a lesbian.

[tapu]

Cue intellectual reverse snobbery. Do I have a GPS tracker on me? <lifts shoes to look under>

[tapu]

Like pussy exclusively, huh? There is a more to having sex with a woman than that no matter how you id. Also, I am a lesbian stone butch, so mine is not involved. But yes I am a lesbian.

I wasn't defining how to have sex with a woman. And, stone whatever does not negate the base definition. It's a variation on it.

[Daktari]

tapu's dictionary:

Got a pussy? Like pussy exclusively? Yer a lesbian.


Not true akshually! :|

[Julie]

Tapu to the rescue.
Got a pussy? Like pussy exclusively? Yer a lesbian.
And there you have. You are not a Lesbian if you do not indulge in the mighty pussy.

As far as the thanking of posts. I wrote about this in the other thread. I might not agree with what the poster is saying, but often - I will thank them for their participation.

And yes, I am rather Ranty (love the descriptor of me) I think it fits rather well.

[Daktari]

I wonder how it would go down if a butch posted a similar thread in the femme zone and it was then populated mainly by butches?

Just askin' yanno?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Tapu to the rescue.
Got a pussy? Like pussy exclusively? Yer a lesbian.
And there you have. You are not a Lesbian if you do not indulge in the mighty pussy.

As far as the thanking of posts. I wrote about this in the other thread. I might not agree with what the poster is saying, but often - I will thank them for their participation.

And yes, I am rather Ranty (love the descriptor of me) I think it fits rather well.


Sadly that depends Julie, cause I LOVE PUSSY, I do, I love cunts, vaginas, labias, panochas, pootnanie, so on and so on.

But, I have been told I can not be lesbian, so I guess it all depends who is going to police lesbian that day.

I have another question about this fucking shit, what happens to the Trans Women who can't afford bottom surgery and are in this very community, are the not lesbians? Cause I believe they are 100% my lesbian, Femme comrades. STOP ERASING THEM

That is one big problem that needs to be solved I believe, or not either way


I LOVE PUSSY I eat it like a Lion.

[*Anya*]

Honestly, I had been feeling really good about the acceptance I was feeling on the Planet for everyone the last few months.

For everyone.

My quote was not complete when tapu quoted me and was therefore out of context.

I just hate, hate lesbian-bashing.

It makes my skin crawl and my back get up.

I also hate stone-bashing.

I hate Trans-bashing.

If I left your ID or gender out- purely accidental. I hate you getting bashed, too.

Enough already.

FFS, do we not have to deal enough with being pitted against each other in the real world?

Does it have to happen here, too?

Really?

[BullDog]

Well okay Tapu, your definition doesn't work for me. It feels quite narrow and I don't like people being reduced to body parts- or one body part.

[Julie]

Sadly that depends Julie, cause I LOVE PUSSY, I do, I love cunts, vaginas, labias, panochas, pootnanie, so on and so on.

But, I have been told I can not be lesbian, so I guess it all depends who is going to police lesbian that day.

I have another question about this fucking shit, what happens to the Trans Women who can't afford bottom surgery and are in this very community, are the not lesbians? Cause I believe they are 100% my lesbian, Femme comrades. STOP ERASING THEM

That is one big problem that needs to be solved I believe, or not either way


I LOVE PUSSY I eat it like a Lion.

Ya know Snow... My partner does not like hys pussy ventured upon. I am okay with saying such, as hy has openly discussed this in the Stone Butch thread. I spent years loving the pussy - devouring it as it should be... But now, my pussy days are over.

I love MY PUSSY! Oh yes I do. Therefore, I am.

MTF's are still not allowed or welcomed at Michigan Womyn's FEST. They will never (this place) get my patronage.

And you are not considered a Lesbian (let us not forget) because you are lovin/fuckin on a trans guy. <shrugs> Oh the rules that have been bestowed upon us.

[ProfPacker]

responding to Anya's post:


FFS, do we not have to deal enough with being pitted against each other in the real world?

Does it have to happen here, too?

I am not weighing in on the politics and particulars of ID.
But when you say" we have to deal with enough with being pitted against each other in the real world? Does it have to happen here, too".

This is exactly what happens when people are marginalized in the dominant society: they turn against each other, the rage builds up, the splits occur and everyone walks away saying "how did this happen". Not to get too psychological her but this happens when people deal with race "she is too black, she is too white" socioeconomic status: "real rich vs. neuvaux (sp) rich.

Do I know the answer to the dynamics ensuing, no. Except, when we become conscious of it we may true to move into the position of empathy...being empathic to all the differences. That is hard, not sure I do it at all, but I am trying to become more aware of it.

I know this is not a sexy post...but everyone is struggling so hard with this that maybe a discussion around why this is so hard, why we can be bashing towards each other is not ok, should ensue. How we want to handle these differences.

[Candelion]

This isn't much of a celebration of butch femininity. :( BUTCHES ROCK!!!

[Martina]

Cue intellectual reverse snobbery. Do I have a GPS tracker on me? <lifts shoes to look under>

I fear that if we knew what you were actually saying half the time, your posts would be even MORE offensive.

[Martina]

This isn't much of a celebration of butch femitninity. :( BUTCHES ROCK!!!

Well, serious threads on similar topics seem to veer into whatever is the site preoccupation or issue of the day. It's inevitable. Some folks try to move them back toward the original intent, but it tends to just kill the thread. Eventually this will die down, and the thread will return to its original purpose.

The idea of butch femininity was bound to bring up a lot, in any case. Yes, there are lots of other gender politics being discussed. From my point of view, so be it.

I dislike it when people get whiplash because someone wants to put the breaks on a conversation for basically formal reasons -- it's not the original topic, for example. If it gets out of hand -- offending and hurting -- then, by all means, stop it. Otherwise, I say, let things go where they go. My opinion.

And the conversation straying a bit does not imply anyone does not think butches rock, if that was part of what you meant.

[C0LLETTE]

So far what I've noticed in reading here is that some people have been offended, even hurt, by what some other people or groups have said. Some friends have been lost, some made; but what I don't see is anyone saying they changed who they were or wanted to be because of what was said. Can make you wonder how deep this all really runs.

On a more personal note:
I started to write a small history of how I came to this site and why I'm still wandering around with bullet holes in my back from my first days here in chat. In the midst of that, I received an email which I'll quote here:

"In my heart I am not a failure or a loser.
Not asking for a magic wand. I get up and wait in county lines for aid or food 4 hours sometimes 6 a day.
I am hungry and hopeless.
Medi-care is causing me to start all over again.My medication i need was denied . I am fighting it and have a state hearing . another nightmare. tirred. i am so tired.
i need help from you, but understand
i liked hearing your voice today"

And that's where I lost my train of thought in this thread.

[Candelion]

Well, serious threads on similar topics seem to veer into whatever is the site preoccupation or issue of the day. It's inevitable. Some folks try to move them back toward the original intent, but it tends to just kill the thread. Eventually this will die down, and the thread will return to its original purpose.

The idea of butch femininity was bound to bring up a lot, in any case. Yes, there are lots of other gender politics being discussed. From my point of view, so be it.

I dislike it when people get whiplash because someone wants to put the breaks on a conversation for basically formal reasons -- it's not the original topic, for example. If it gets out of hand -- offending and hurting -- then, by all means, stop it. Otherwise, I say, let things go where they go. My opinion.

And the conversation straying a bit does not imply anyone does not think butches rock, if that was part of what you meant.


I don't mind that the conversation strayed. It's a lively discussion. I just wanted to jump in with a celebratory kudos to butches. That's all. :)

[imperfect_cupcake]

So far what I've noticed in reading here is that some people have been offended, even hurt, by what some other people or groups have said. Some friends have been lost, some made; but what I don't see is anyone saying they changed who they were or wanted to be because of what was said. Can make you wonder how deep this all really .

I did.
But I'm really conscious I'm yarping in a butch thread about myself, presently.

[weatherboi]

So far what I've noticed in reading here is that some people have been offended, even hurt, by what some other people or groups have said. Some friends have been lost, some made; but what I don't see is anyone saying they changed who they were or wanted to be because of what was said. Can make you wonder how deep this all really runs.

On a more personal note:
I started to write a small history of how I came to this site and why I'm still wandering around with bullet holes in my back from my first days here in chat. In the midst of that, I received an email which I'll quote here:

"In my heart I am not a failure or a loser.
Not asking for a magic wand. I get up and wait in county lines for aid or food 4 hours sometimes 6 a day.
I am hungry and hopeless.
Medi-care is causing me to start all over again.My medication i need was denied . I am fighting it and have a state hearing . another nightmare. tirred. i am so tired.
i need help from you, but understand
i liked hearing your voice today"

And that's where I lost my train of thought in this thread.

Are you saying someone asked you for money???

[C0LLETTE]

If that is what you got from my post then I obviously need to stop posting here.

[tapu]

I fear that if we knew what you were actually saying half the time, your posts would be even MORE offensive.

And I fear that no matter what I could ever say, you'd find yourself offended.

Cheers~

[tapu]

Well okay Tapu, your definition doesn't work for me. It feels quite narrow and I don't like people being reduced to body parts- or one body part.

Yes, I understand your objections. How would you phrase a bare-bones, dictionary definition of a lesbian? (That was all I was trying to get at. There are differences and nuances I recognize, outside life in a dictionary.)

Thank you for your direct, and respectful, response, btw. That was great.

[Selenay]

tapu's dictionary:

Got a pussy? Like pussy exclusively? Yer a lesbian.


My sexuality is not based around my, or anyone else's, underwear stuffing.

[tapu]

My sexuality is not based around my, or anyone else's, underwear stuffing.





Okay, give me your basic definition of the English language word lesbian.

Just give us at this point where to start: those semantic features that are necessary and sufficient to add up to "lesbian"

[Martina]

Tapu, please do not use the reputation comments to me to post critical/unfriendly remarks. My understanding is that that is against the TOS.

[tapu]

Tapu, please do not use the reputation comments to me to post critical/unfriendly remarks. My understanding is that that is against the TOS.

Yes, maam, just didn't want to make that remark public since it was just to you.

But I'll read up on TOS before I post anything to or near you again.

[Martina]

We should just ignore her. This is what happens so often. You are having a serious discussion, and a crackpot comes in and pushes everyone's buttons and derails it. She's having a good time, but everyone else is not.

[BullDog]

Kernerman English Learner's Dictionary

lesbian(noun)ˈlɛz bi ən
a woman who is sexually attracted to other women

Wiktionary

lesbian(Noun)
A homosexual female, a female who is sexually or romantically attracted to other females.
lesbian(Adjective)
Homosexual; preferring female romantic or sexual partners.

A non-chest-pounding lesbian here.

Honestly, I had been feeling really good about the acceptance I was feeling on the Planet for everyone the last few months.

For everyone.

Tapu, *Anya* posted the above textbook definition earlier which you already quoted, but here it is again.

I would say this holds true a majority of the time in the world at large not as much in butch femme circles.

There are quite a number of femme lesbians who are partnered with/date male id/trans men. They still call themselves lesbians but are not strictly "women loving women." Just one example, and they have their own reasons and personal connections for why they id as lesbian.

People id with lesbian in different ways. For some, it strictly speaks to sexual orientation, for some perhaps to gender, for others community- either they have related to lesbian communities in the past and/or do so now.

For me, it is about sexual orientation (I am a butch woman attracted to femme women) and community (I have friendships and ties to real world community). I don't really like of lesbian as gender for myself really. I think of my gender as butch, but I often feel I have to qualify it with woman, lesbian and stone butch to be understood.

I don't think it is a good idea to define lesbian based on body parts. First of all, not to reduce us to body parts and second of all because in this community people relate to their physical bodies and genitals in different ways. So what I have downstairs might be anatomically the same as someone else but they might relate to it entirely different, yet we could still both be lesbians, or not.

[tapu]

Some might do well to reread my definition and not saddle it with connotation.

For example, "like pussy exclusively" does not entail any nuances of "has to enjoy having hers touched," "has to touch it to like it."

Also, a MTF trans qualifies if they have a pussy.

Hey, words DO have meanings. Otherwise, this would be Babel....

[weatherboi]

So far what I've noticed in reading here is that some people have been offended, even hurt, by what some other people or groups have said. Some friends have been lost, some made; but what I don't see is anyone saying they changed who they were or wanted to be because of what was said. Can make you wonder how deep this all really runs.

On a more personal note:
I started to write a small history of how I came to this site and why I'm still wandering around with bullet holes in my back from my first days here in chat. In the midst of that, I received an email which I'll quote here:

"In my heart I am not a failure or a loser.
Not asking for a magic wand. I get up and wait in county lines for aid or food 4 hours sometimes 6 a day.
I am hungry and hopeless.
Medi-care is causing me to start all over again.My medication i need was denied . I am fighting it and have a state hearing . another nightmare. tirred. i am so tired.
i need help from you, but understand
i liked hearing your voice today"

And that's where I lost my train of thought in this thread.

Are you saying someone asked you for money???

If that is what you got from my post then I obviously need to stop posting here.

If you are speaking to me


"i need help from you, but understand i liked hearing your voice today"
I can empathize with what comes before this one sentence then I am distracted by what feels to me like a play for emotional drainage or a play for money. I have seen it a lot in the online community so it is a red flag to me. I was concerned for you, nothing more.

I just want to point out I feel your response to me to be short, dismissive, and insinuates that I am not "getting it". That is no way to have a reasonable conversation and totally goes against what we are trying to accomplish here.

[tapu]

We should just ignore her. This is what happens so often. You are having a serious discussion, and a crackpot comes in and pushes everyone's buttons and derails it. She's having a good time, but everyone else is not.

Gosh, Martina, was it something I said?

Please take your personal vendetta private or away, and discuss only the topic here. There must be something in the TOS about that.

[BullDog]

sorry can't edit, but my above post I meant I don't really think of lesbian as my gender (not like).

[Selenay]

Okay, give me your basic definition of the English language word lesbian.

Just give us at this point where to start: those semantic features that are necessary and sufficient to add up to "lesbian"

I'd be happy to, but hopefully this will end the discourse, since we've now moved off topic.

I prefer to use legitimate definitions when making sweeping statements about the definitions of others sexuality, so I've chosen to use the Oxford Dictionary (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/lesbian?q=lesbian+#lesbian) definition:
a homosexual woman.

Now, I like to do my due diligence, so let's check out the definition of homosexual (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/homosexual?q=homosexual):
(of a person) sexually attracted to people of one’s own sex.

But that's tricky, because sex and gender are not necessarily the same thing, and while the OED has a whole discussion on the difference between sex and gender, I think this discussion is off-topic enough. While I'd be thrilled to engage with you further about what "makes" someone a lesbian, this is neither the time nor place to do so.

[tapu]

I'd be happy to, but hopefully this will end the discourse, since we've now moved off topic.

I prefer to use legitimate definitions when making sweeping statements about the definitions of others sexuality, so I've chosen to use the Oxford Dictionary (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/lesbian?q=lesbian+#lesbian) definition:
a homosexual woman.

Now, I like to do my due diligence, so let's check out the definition of homosexual (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/homosexual?q=homosexual):
(of a person) sexually attracted to people of one’s own sex.

But that's tricky, because sex and gender are not necessarily the same thing, and while the OED has a whole discussion on the difference between sex and gender, I think this discussion is off-topic enough. While I'd be happy to engage with you further about what "makes" someone a lesbian, this is neither the time nor place to do so.




Guess you get the last word.

[Medusa]

I'd like to add something, if I may.

First, this is not meant as patronizing at all but I truly need to say that this might have been one of the best debates I've seen on this site in a while. Not because it is without clash, but because I see folks truly trying to have a conversation. This is a tough one, no doubt, but I believe there has been positive movement in how we discuss this issue on this site. (Yes, "this issue" being Lesbian-bashing and gender intersections.)

Also, I'd like to give voice to the fact that I, too, do not want to see this site turn into open season on Lesbians. I identify as a Lesbian and this is my space too. Many people here do identify as a Lesbian or have identified as Lesbians in their gender history so I'd hate to see that level of vilification turned inward.

I think the thing that is important to remember is that everyone of every gender on this site has a history, both with themselves and with people and groups of other genders. I think we can all agree that our experiences color the way we see people and thus, can lead to prejudices, stereotyping, and labeling people against their consent.
Are we wrong to develop prejudices toward other people or groups of people? The short and politically correct answer would be YES!!!!
The truth, though, is that this happens sometimes whether we want it to or not.
I don't believe for one second that there is a single person on this site who has never looked at a Fat person and thought their fatness was "gross" or that they were "smelly" or looked at a group of Black males walking down the road at night and clutched their purse or made fun of "little people" or thought that a High Femme was "playacting" or thought that an old person probably didn't have sex any more or insert any number of bullshit things that can go through the heads of human beings when they are young or unevolved or low-level thinkers or hell, when they've not checked their prejudices.
These are, of course, extreme examples but I'm trying to illustrate that every one of us has some level of context about other groups that we may need to work on.

And why did I illustrate with such extreme examples? Because these are things that I can think of that we could form prejudices on that MAY IN FACT have some truth or history behind them.

For example, don't tell me that every single fat person in this world smells like a rose because we all know that's bullshit. Why? Because not every HUMAN BEING smells like a rose.
Don't tell me that a group of Black males walking down the road at night has NEVER grabbed a woman's purse. Why? Because HUMAN BEINGS in groups have grabbed women's purses.
Don't tell me that every person over 80 is still having sex. Why? Because some HUMAN BEINGS over 80 can't or won't or don't want to.

This is clumsy of me but I'm trying to say that when people give examples of things that have happened to them by Lesbians or Transmen or Femmes or Butches and then someone from the group that the example was given of comes in and tries to basically re-write history and say that it has NEVERRRRRRR been that way, IT. MAKES. ME. CRAZY.

Because an attempt to sterilize real, live experiences so that people can feel better about their own personal identity is complete and utter BULLSHIT and it's a waste of time on these threads. And you know what else it is? It's a fucking LIE.

If a Stone Butch comes on and and says "I've had several Femmes try to penetrate me against my will. WTF is that?" and some Stone Femmes come back in the thread and basically try to tell that Butch they are offended and that it never happend and "Femmes don't do that" then, inevitably, start reporting posts and finger-waggling about how we are allowing "Stone Femme-bashing", it feels like we are being asked to participate in magical thinking.

I have felt that way a couple of times with "Lesbian-bashing" concerns, just as I have with "Trans-bashing" and even "woman-bashing" in general. (using quotes to distinguish language that has become part of our dictionary here, not because I don't believe in it or that it happens)

Conversly, people sometimes need to do a little work around how they talk about their history here. Not cool to be all "most Femmes do x, y, z" or "Back when I was 20, most Butches were this, this, or this".
Still, I submit that generalizing is sometimes the language that people have and while it may suck and piss us off, it is OFTEN valuable to listen to what is being said versus HOW it is being said. I'm always curious how people got to the opinion that a group of human beings thousands of people deep are all "insert attribute here".

Doesn't mean we don't get to call people out when they made ridiculous statements and it certainly doesnt mean we need to put up with any bull where stereotypes are held up as the "truth". I'd just like to think we can move forward, not even necessarily while agreeing with one another, if we concede that everyone is coming from a different place, all funnelled into this weird-ass little microchasm that has a long, entrenched history of gobbledygook that we've learned and unlearned a thousand times.

I personally struggled with creating a Lesbian "zone" on this site. In my mind, this entire site is a Lesbian zone and I felt that the zone was privileged or even separatist in that I felt it tried to divest itself of the yin and yang of what makes this site space special (that of honoring the Butch-and-Femme-as-Nouns dynamic).
And this is where my own history of being around Lesbian separatists who wanted nothing to do with Butch/Femme/Trans or even women with any level of masculinity intersected with my "zone" feelings. So, this is me giving a live example of how our histories and lived experience sometimes inform us unfairly or fairly, depending on how you process it.

Anyway, I'm rambling and forgot my point here but I'd like to keep going in this thread in all of its winding roads. Good discussion.

[Kobi]

One of the saddest things in the world to me, is female to female misogyny. It is drilled into us from birth. We are taught that it is up to women to police other women. We are taught when a woman or group of women threaten to upset the status quo they must be silenced by any means possible.

Well done. The patriarchy is very proud of you.

[stargazingboi]

Some might do well to reread my definition and not saddle it with connotation.

For example, "like pussy exclusively" does not entail any nuances of "has to enjoy having hers touched," "has to touch it to like it."

Also, a MTF trans qualifies if they have a pussy.

Hey, words DO have meanings. Otherwise, this would be Babel....

I can't agree with the MTF only qualifying if she has a "pussy"...she qualifies because she is a woman..period

[C0LLETTE]

If you are speaking to me


"i need help from you, but understand i liked hearing your voice today"
I can empathize with what comes before this one sentence then I am distracted by what feels to me like a play for emotional drainage or a play for money. I have seen it a lot in the online community so it is a red flag to me. I was concerned for you, nothing more.

I just want to point out I feel your response to me to be short, dismissive, and insinuates that I am not "getting it". That is no way to have a reasonable conversation and totally goes against what we are trying to accomplish here.

Thank you for your concern weatherboi and I apologise for having misinterpreted your response which I found "short, dismissive and insinuate(ing). I do wish to have "a reasonable conversation" and would never want to "totally (go) against what we are trying to accomplish here".

In an effort to avoid being further ostracised from that "we", I am now disengaging from this issue with you.

[tapu]

I can't agree with the MTF only qualifying if she has a "pussy"...she qualifies because she is a woman..period

I understand the pull to include MTF and FTM both as lesbians, but you must admit that they seem like they form a subcategory or a caveat to the definition of lesbian, as it means in the general parlance.

I don't mind people stepping outside the parlance. Matter of fact I honor it directly and personally with some MTF's I know. But they are special categories to "lesbian." The unmarked form does not include them.

[C0LLETTE]

Please allow me to make something very clear. I don't care who thanks me or doesn't thank me. Who sends me messages or doesn't. I have no horse in this race and don't want one.

[musicman]

I just wanted to send out a kudos to the site Admin for NOT shutting this thread down. Do I understand the guts of it .... no, but I can appreciate the healthy debate , the going back and forth the thread is creating. I've seen a few times on this site a thread shut down because someone went against the grain of the majority or stepped on someones toes.

We need more of these thread, the meat and potatoes, stick to your ribs threads

[stargazingboi]

I understand the pull to include MTF and FTM both as lesbians, but you must admit that they seem like they form a subcategory or a caveat to the definition of lesbian, as it means in the general parlance.

I don't mind people stepping outside the parlance. Matter of fact I honor it directly and personally with some MTF's I know. But they are special categories to "lesbian." The unmarked form does not include them.

then we would all have our own subcategory...wouldn't we, and we would all fall under the umbrella term of lesbian. Then, right there in itself should prevent division and not continue the break down of a community.

[The_Lady_Snow]

One of the saddest things in the world to me, is female to female misogyny. It is drilled into us from birth. We are taught that it is up to women to police other women. We are taught when a woman or group of women threaten to upset the status quo they must be silenced by any means possible.

Well done. The patriarchy is very proud of you.







Does this statement apply to you as we'll? Thanks you for clarifying ahead of time.

[tapu]

then we would all have our own subcategory...wouldn't we, and we would all fall under the umbrella term of lesbian. Then, right there in itself should prevent division and not continue the break down of a community.

I think I understand... what is your definition of lesbian then? I mean, what are the basic semantic features that describe the category "Lesbian," so that you can have your umbrella?

[Martina]

One of the saddest things in the world to me, is female to female misogyny. It is drilled into us from birth. We are taught that it is up to women to police other women. We are taught when a woman or group of women threaten to upset the status quo they must be silenced by any means possible.

Well done. The patriarchy is very proud of you.




If I criticize another woman, that does not make it misogyny. I still think that holding up Megan Ellison as some kind of example is highly questionable. I have class politics too. It's not all about feminism all the time. And being a feminist doesn't mean you abandon reason and support all women regardless. There are some bad women out there.

How would we criticize Michelle Bachman or Megyn Kelly's insanity if we never questioned a word spoken by another woman?

[BullDog]

I understand the pull to include MTF and FTM both as lesbians, but you must admit that they seem like they form a subcategory or a caveat to the definition of lesbian, as it means in the general parlance.

I don't mind people stepping outside the parlance. Matter of fact I honor it directly and personally with some MTF's I know. But they are special categories to "lesbian." The unmarked form does not include them.


MTFs and FTMs are human beings (not caveats or special categories) and they are lesbians if that is how they choose to identify. That's why I dislike your definition of lesbian based on anatomy. That's why MTFs aren't welcome at MichFest. Nobody qualifies or is disqualified based on what they have or don't have downstairs.

[The_Lady_Snow]

So now we're gonna "other" Trans folk? Really? Are we really going to be ugly? WTF? I don't understand why the continued erasure, they're LESBIANS cause that's their IDENTITY! Is it that difficult to grasp?

[Martina]

Identity categories need to be porous. Otherwise they are another excuse to police and oppress. Rigidly defining identity categories is a classic, classic form of oppression among members of a group. It's not the point. How useful IS it to have a definition that is completely consistent? Not at all. Not unless you are interested in excluding people or in treating some members differently.

[C0LLETTE]

Identity categories need to be porous. Otherwise they are another excuse to police and oppress. Rigidly defining identity categories is a classic, classic form of oppression among members of a group. It's not the point. How useful IS it to have a definition that is completely consistent? Not at all. Not unless you are interested in excluding people or in treating some members differently.

On the other hand, how useful is it to have a definition that is so fluid and porous that no one knows from minute to minute what is meant by a term? It's quite the conundrum when we talk about "members" of something but no one can agree on what that something is. Maybe "exclusion" isn't necessarily the automatic perjorative we assume it to be. We aren't all Polish either. Though I suppose we all can become Polish once we know the criterion.

[Nat]

Oh how exciting to look in on the thread I started and see 7 pages already! Woohoo :)

Okay so now I've read through it and maybe most of it is off-topic, but I do love you contentious people. <3

I also feel much like dykeumentary posted - we are not the actual problem even when we fight tooth and nail with each other over stuff.

I don't think every butch has an especially pronounced feminine side, just like I don't think every femme has a pronounced masculine side. However, I am a femme who enjoys my masculine side and hates to feel shamed or squashed or excluded for not fitting some imaginary femme mold.

I also love me some butch pride where it applies. I'd hate to see butches excluded from butchness by people in our community with narrow views of what butch is.

A long time ago on a site far away, a self-identified butch told me that she wore women's underwear because it fit her and from time to time she enjoyed wearing lipstick. This was a really neat butch - cute, smart, thoughtful, etc. and she was a butch - no mistaking that. But she also said she would NEVER admit to these facts about herself online, as she would no longer be considered butch should she do so. I puzzled over that for a bit - back then I was still a baby femme and didn't really understand much about how gender pressure happened. But over the years, I've seen some really awesome self-identified butches hide their girlier qualities for fear of ridicule and I've seen some butchy people avoid b/f space and identity due to what are perceived as rigid definitions - while at the same time feeling isolated by non-b-f lesbians who often really don't know quite what to do with a butch or a femme - the loudest of these often being the most unwelcoming voices. And so with slices from both sides, these folks remain in the desert - deprived of the comradery, the shared knowledge, and even the bickering that we get to indulge in. I personally think that's a pity.

[Play]

Words have an original meaning and then may have evolved into a broader
or narrower meaning. We, as humans, recognize that things have changed
over the course of time. I think as caring, thinking, compassionate people,
it would serve all of us well to embrace the ever-changing meaning of words in
our own community.

While I appreciate everyone's input into any conversation, I have to say
the intent of some seems more combative than constructive.

To quote my dad, "Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one"

That being said....I'm enjoying this discussion even though it has gone
wildly off-course.

If someone feels the need to judge me.....
I hope it is for my intent instead of poor word choice.

[C0LLETTE]

Isn't it possible to have this conversation without imputing other peoples' "intent", particularly a negative intent? A benefit of doubt might prove more

[BullDog]

Threads getting off topic is normal here, but is anyone else wondering why there aren't more butches in here talking about aspects of femininity? To me that is what is most striking.

[C0LLETTE]

I tried to delete my post but wasn't quick enough. I just don't want to go there. Apologies to all.

[Play]

Isn't it possible to have this conversation without imputing other peoples' "intent"?

I was merely stating the way the situation seems to me.

Also, I am fairly sure that is acceptable language to use.

If it isn't, I'm sure someone will let me know if I have violated TOS.

[C0LLETTE]

I suspect that there is a high probability that the answer to my question is "yes".
However I'm ok with the response.

[Nat]

Threads getting off topic is normal here, but is anyone else wondering why there aren't more butches in here talking about aspects of femininity? To me that is what is most striking.

Is there perhaps a level of exposure here that doesn't seem worth the risk?

[BullDog]

Nat, I don't think that there is one single answer, but I tend to think it is more that many butches fall through the cracks and don't feel they fit in too well in BF online communities (mostly due to whole butch scale thing) than they are sitting here reading and wanting to post and are afraid to. But, no one answer fits all.

[Play]

There are as many ways to express ideas as there are people expressing them.

[Nat]

Nat, I don't think that there is one single answer, but I tend to think it is more that many butches fall through the cracks and don't feel they fit in too well in BF online communities (mostly due to whole butch scale thing) than they are sitting here reading and wanting to post and are afraid to. But, no one answer fits all.

If so, I think that's unfortunate. The community suffers and so do individuals who might feel excluded unnecessarily.

[Rolo]

My ex identified as butch. She wore mascara and eyeliner...more than I did. This was normal to her and she felt very attractive when she did...did some people have a problem with... I guess so, but that just due to there ideals of what butch looks like or how they like it to look. It's not common but you do what makes you feel good and she could have cared less what anyone felt or thought. No clue if she had an inner struggle with it but I doubt it.

Be you, we don't have to be the same.

[BullDog]

Yes, I agree Nat. I have known butches personally who did not feel they fit in. Then again, some of them also are not real internet types. They might just spend a few minutes online or maybe play arcade games, then they are off to spend time with family and such.


I do hope people who are here feel comfortable talking about various aspects of their gender. I do love to hear about it.

[lamuymuyfem]

MTFs and FTMs are human beings (not caveats or special categories) and they are lesbians if that is how they choose to identify. That's why I dislike your definition of lesbian based on anatomy. That's why MTFs aren't welcome at MichFest. Nobody qualifies or is disqualified based on what they have or don't have downstairs.
Wait wait wait wait….in my understanding, gender ID and sexual orientation are two separate things……which means that transgender folks should have the right to a sexual orientation, which could possibly be lesbian…….si o no?

[BullDog]

Wait wait wait wait….in my understanding, gender ID and sexual orientation are two separate things……which means that transgender folks should have the right to a sexual orientation, which could possibly be lesbian…….si o no?

Yes that is what I was saying. Anyone who says they are a lesbian, is a lesbian. People have different reasons for iding that way.

[Paradox]

The concept of butch femininity is interesting and even more importantly I am quite happy of how the posts evolved into something that I believe has been simmering for long time within the LGBT . The good, bad and ugly of it all in one thread. One thing I can not stand is the extreme extent of political correctness practically causing paralysis in our inability to discuss things openly and without perceiving harmful intent.

Some great posts from Miss Tick, Kobi, HB for example. But there are too many points to address, but fundamentally the unrest from within the ‘community’ and use the term loosely is due combination of ambiguous definitions/IDs and the battle to be all inclusive. This is a situation that is not reserved for online community only I personally witnessed and experienced in real world as well.

I never liked ID - Butch in my past for primarily the same reasons Miss Tick outlined (1st post). It was and some ways remains to mean ‘male’ vs masculine. The patriarchal dominance was not something I wanted to automatically embrace at the risk of leaving my equal matriarchal strengths behind. For me, my femininity is the ability to embrace and utilize my masculinity however I please, while remembering and loving - I am female. We all posses both energies within us. I enjoy the masculine elements that surface, but I still buy women’s clothes along with some male clothing, because I want to and I can.

Our biggest umbrella is that we are human. There are many (perhaps too many) subcategories and with each addition the risk increases marginalization. We debate/discuss the IDs that exist and continue create alphabet soup of new IDs because we don’t like how one sounds or means (I am guilty of this myself). We have become our worst enemies :slapfight:. I’ll be a bit of devil’s advocate. :grindevil:

Since there is no clean, concise way to define butch/femme (lines have become so blurred-maybe meaningless) why do we continue to use them?
What exactly is a Butch or Femme? A definition that can be universally applied with little personal preferences?
If lesbian is woman who is sexually attracted to other women - Is a FTM a lesbian? Is a Trans a lesbian?
Can being inclusive really exist without some layer of discrimination? I do not mean in a extreme hate context? But if we claim inclusive what does that mean?
If we have ‘spaces’ is that not a layer of discrimination? Don’t get me wrong I don’t believe you can claim inclusivity without excluding somewhere/someone unintentionally or intentionally. But I do believe in ‘spaces’ and they should be supported.
EX:
Main Group of Meteorologist.
Sub-Group A: Common strait: Building miniature structures out of match sticks.
Sub-Group B: Common Strait: Dress in Gothic.
Sub-Group C: Common Strait: Fascination with tall people.
Yes odd example - I am just picking random straits that pop into my mind ;).

If I relate to only one group. I can be curious, maybe fulfil my curiosity and ask questions from the other 2. Interact etc, but must I include them in a space I made for the group I relate to?

The real issue is how or who defines that space to ensure it does not border towards hate. That is not as easy as one can imagine - so we often prefer to think of ways to be more inclusive.
I am not asking for proof of support or anything. I posing these questions as food for thought :thinking:, because the less we can define things properly it is unlikely we can come together. I may not agree with you on some or many points, but how you behave towards someone is the cornerstone for me on the likelihood of the chance to move forward.

The irony is for most people; the more things change the more they stay same.

[lamuymuyfem]

Tapu, *Anya* posted the above textbook definition earlier which you already quoted, but here it is again.

I would say this holds true a majority of the time in the world at large not as much in butch femme circles.

There are quite a number of femme lesbians who are partnered with/date male id/trans men. They still call themselves lesbians but are not strictly "women loving women." Just one example, and they have their own reasons and personal connections for why they id as lesbian.

People id with lesbian in different ways. For some, it strictly speaks to sexual orientation, for some perhaps to gender, for others community- either they have related to lesbian communities in the past and/or do so now.

For me, it is about sexual orientation (I am a butch woman attracted to femme women) and community (I have friendships and ties to real world community). I don't really like of lesbian as gender for myself really. I think of my gender as butch, but I often feel I have to qualify it with woman, lesbian and stone butch to be understood.

I don't think it is a good idea to define lesbian based on body parts. First of all, not to reduce us to body parts and second of all because in this community people relate to their physical bodies and genitals in different ways. So what I have downstairs might be anatomically the same as someone else but they might relate to it entirely different, yet we could still both be lesbians, or not.

This planet is my big opportunity to explore my feelings about IDing as lesbian when I was dating an FtM…..so thanks to everybody who talks openly about that. No more shrinking planets, please….

[BullDog]

lamuymuyfem, good to hear. Whatever feels good to you and makes you feel comfortable in your skin. That is what is important. Welcome to BFP.

[Kobi]

Yes that is what I was saying. Anyone who says they are a lesbian, is a lesbian. People have different reasons for iding that way.


Between this and your other post....you are saying:

cis women are lesbians if they so choose
MTF are lesbians if they so choose
FTM are lesbian if they so choose
ergo, cis heterosexual men are also lesbian if they so choose
my cat is lesbian if she so chooses.

I can call myself a ham sandwich, doesnt mean I am one.

And Snow thinks we are othering transfolks?

You have effectively rendered being a lesbian to meaning nothing. Its not bad enough that lesbians have been bashed in this thread, called responsible for all that ails the community, now you are trying to totally transform women who love other women into something else?

This has got to be the most disrespectful, insulting, negating, misogynistic, lesbian phobic, homophobic bunch of bullshit I have ever heard in this community.

[BullDog]

Between this and your other post....you are saying:

cis women are lesbians if they so choose
MTF are lesbians if they so choose
FTM are lesbian if they so choose
ergo, cis men are also lesbian if they so choose
my cat is lesbian if she so chooses.

I can call myself a ham sandwich, doesnt mean I am one.

And Snow thinks we are othering transfolks?

You have effectively rendered being a lesbian to meaning nothing. Its not bad enough that lesbians have been bashed in this thread, called responsible for all that ails the community, now you are trying to totally transform women who love other women into something else?

This has got to be the most disrespectful, negating, misogynistic, lesbian phobic, homophobic bunch of bullshit I have ever heard in this community.




Holy shit.

Guess what Kobi, if someone says they are a lesbian and wants to participate in lesbian events and community I am not going to slam the door in their face. I welcome them.

I seriously find your post to probably be the most bizarre thing I have ever seen in my 13 years online.

Just shaking my head.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Between this and your other post....you are saying:

cis women are lesbians if they so choose
MTF are lesbians if they so choose
FTM are lesbian if they so choose
ergo, cis men are also lesbian if they so choose
my cat is lesbian if she so chooses.

I can call myself a ham sandwich, doesnt mean I am one.

And Snow thinks we are othering transfolks?

You have effectively rendered being a lesbian to meaning nothing. Its not bad enough that lesbians have been bashed in this thread, called responsible for all that ails the community, now you are trying to totally transform women who love other women into something else?

This has got to be the most disrespectful, negating, misogynistic, lesbian phobic, homophobic bunch of bullshit I have ever heard in this community.





I don't know who *we* is for you, and no, I don't just *think* it's happening ------IT IS happening. I am not sure how you aren't seeing that. it's been quoted and addressed.


As for disrespect, negation, lesbian phobic, homophic buncha bullshit, does that apply to you as well? Or are you placing that on just certain people?

Thank you ahead for clarifying..

[BullDog]

I am the most lesbian phobic person in the history of the universe. LOL never thought I would be called that. Seriously so fucked up all I can do is laugh.

In case anyone is confused I am a lesbian.

[Kobi]

I don't know who *we* is for you, and no I don't just *think* it's happening IT IS happening. I am not sure how you aren't seeing that. it's been quoted and addressed.


As for disrespect, negation, lesbian phobic, homophic buncha bullshit, does that apply to you as well? Or are you placing that on just certain people?

Thank you ahead for clarifying..


I decline to be baited into more bullshit.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I decline to be baited into more bullshit.



Now see I don't believe anyone is baiting you, what I am reading is you want to pontificate and point fingers and police who gets to go where, and when you are asked why it's ok for you to do it, you deflect, get upset, flounce out and so on.

So no Kobi no one is baiting you, you come in here and call people homophobic, lesbian phobic. wait, let me go quote you so I am not making stuff up


You Said



Originally Posted by Kobi View Post



"This has got to be the most disrespectful, negating, misogynistic, lesbian phobic, homophobic bunch of bullshit I have ever heard in this community. "
--------------------------------------------------------

Does that include you? Because from where I sit, it should, because you, you Kobi have all those attributes that you just accused people in this thread of having.


So no I am not baiting I am just wondering if you include yourself in that, and if not, why? What makes Kobi *better*?

[Martina]

ID's and their meanings change over time. Yes, ID's must have some meaning, and in order to mean anything, they must exclude some possibilities -- Kobi's cat, straight cis men -- but they must not be cohesive and water-tight. I learned that from reading Judith Butler. There is no need for them to be cohesive and water-tight. We as a culture and sub-culture have a working understanding of what an ID means, an understanding which is being negotiated all the time. That's just the way it works. We don't all vote on some definition, write it somewhere, and then give out cards to those who qualify.

Currently, we are trying to change who gets included, for example transwomen. Also, culture workers and activists, as well as allies, are having a conversation with the dominant culture about what it means to be a lesbian. In general, we are trying to remove pejorative associations from the ID. We also struggle not to make the ID seem all white, all middle class, etc. An effort to codify an ID is usually just a way for people who are defending the status quo to exclude others who are challenging their power within a community -- meaning white, privileged, and cis lesbians.

[Medusa]

Cats and straight cismen are certainly not Lesbians but women are if they love and fuck other women or fuck Queerly.

Here is where it gets sticky for me. When we start to say that "MTFs can be a Lesbian" in the same sentence as cats being a Lesbian, the separatist, transphobic slip of misandry *and* misogyny shows.

When we start to police who is a woman, we negate not only other women but we negate our OWN ability to love the woman who we are within ourselves. Think about it, if we are determining who else is a woman by sex organs and chromosomes, a vast number of women who have had hysterectomies and such are now, apparently, no longer women.

Why is "Lesbian" important to fence off if Butch or Femme or Trans is not?

[TruTexan]

I'm one of the butches that is staying out of this thread. I don't like arguing and going back and forth with name calling and accusations and whatever else there is going on in here yada yada yada.

I tend not to read things the way others do, I just read it and move on to the next post.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm one of the butches that is staying out of this thread. I don't like arguing and going back and forth with name calling and accusations and whatever else there is going on in here yada yada yada.

I tend not to read things the way others do, I just read it and move on to the next post.



But you didn't, you posted in it, so that kinda negates your statement no?

BTW there is no name calling going on, would you mind showing us a post where that happened?

[fatallyblonde]

I have another question about this fucking shit, what happens to the Trans Women who can't afford bottom surgery and are in this very community, are the not lesbians? Cause I believe they are 100% my lesbian, Femme comrades. STOP ERASING THEM


^^^^^^^ THIS.

There is so much shit in this thread I don't even know where to begin. But it sure has got my eyebrows raised very high in disbelief. But I can't be fucked arguing ("loving" all the misogyny directed at us "bitchy oppressive femmes" though! And women id butches - but the poor trans men and genderqueers NEVER judge, poor victims of mean wimminz bitchiness boo hoo hoo - SPARE ME). What Snow says above is the most important, crucial, critical factor for me. TRANS WOMEN BELONG IN OUR COMMUNITY, THEY BELONG IN WOMEN'S SPACES AND IF LESBIAN ID IN LESBIAN SPACE NO MATTER WHAT THEIR JUNK LOOKS LIKE.
This equating of womanhood and lesbianism with vagina HAS TO STOP.

I told myself I wasn't going to participate here at all - the amount of misogyny going on is staggering - but I will always come out to bat for trans women. If my tone is contentious, well. I am really, really angry right now. But I try as much as I can not to internet brawl these days. Thats all I have to say. Any community that excludes trans women is a fucked, broken community.

(and? it is REALLY dehumanising to refer to trans women as "MTFs" for goddsakes. Is it so hard to type out trans women??)

[Nat]

I used to have lots of internet arguments. Lately I just tend to state my piece and move on. Just having the record of different experience seems to be the real meat to the threads on this and other forums. We really don't all have to agree. I did post this in the butch zone because it was a question for butches. I'm curious regarding the plethora of potential butch responses and would like to see the contention over other subjects move elsewhere as I suspect it's silencing to a possibly important dialog that could really benefit us all to read.

[Candelion]

But you didn't, you posted in it, so that kinda negates your statement no?

BTW there is no name calling going on, would you mind showing us a post where that happened?

I may be wrong but I don't think I am. But didn't someone call Tapu a crackpot?

[The_Lady_Snow]

I used to have lots of internet arguments. Lately I just tend to state my piece and move on. Just having the record of different experience seems to be the real meat to the threads on this and other forums. We really don't all have to agree. I did post this in the butch zone because it was a question for butches. I'm curious regarding the plethora of potential butch responses and would like to see the contention over other subjects move elsewhere as I suspect it's silencing to a possibly important dialog that could really benefit us all to read.



I really feel that the conversation should be allowed to flow organically, it will eventually either be resolved, people will talk, evolve, but it's organic and no one is being to overly gross,

It's been painful yet great to see people's brain juices flow, and it's different people sharing their stuff not just 3 or 4.

Not that you care what I think, it's your thread, but I really wanted you to know that it's important what is happening.

[Martina]

When we start to police who is a woman, we negate not only other women but we negate our OWN ability to love the woman who we are within ourselves. Think about it, if we are determining who else is a woman by sex organs and chromosomes, a vast number of women who have had hysterectomies and such are now, apparently, no longer women.


Butler calls these "intense disavowals" and says they are cruelties that we visit on ourselves. They repudiate the other in order to create a precise definition. But there is rarely a clean line between ourselves and others, as you note.

An example: When femmes defined ourselves in opposition to straight women, those of us who were once straight women were disavowing ourselves and our pasts. Some people think of their straight pasts as a time when they just did not know themselves as queer. But not all femmes do. Some of us WERE straight at some point. Some live as straight women now, and still ID as femme.

You have to leave the edges blurred or you will exclude people you may not want to. You will also repudiate allies and even parts of yourself. And you waste your time policing boundaries, which is really just code for a struggle for dominance within a group.

[Martina]

I may be wrong but I don't think I am. But didn't someone call Tapu a crackpot?

Yes. I did.

[DapperButch]

^^^^^^^ THIS.

There is so much shit in this thread I don't even know where to begin. But it sure has got my eyebrows raised very high in disbelief. But I can't be fucked arguing ("loving" all the misogyny directed at us "bitchy oppressive femmes" though! And women id butches - but the poor trans men and genderqueers NEVER judge, poor victims of mean wimminz bitchiness boo hoo hoo - SPARE ME). What Snow says above is the most important, crucial, critical factor for me. TRANS WOMEN BELONG IN OUR COMMUNITY, THEY BELONG IN WOMEN'S SPACES AND IF LESBIAN ID IN LESBIAN SPACE NO MATTER WHAT THEIR JUNK LOOKS LIKE.
This equating of womanhood and lesbianism with vagina HAS TO STOP.

I told myself I wasn't going to participate here at all - the amount of misogyny going on is staggering - but I will always come out to bat for trans women. If my tone is contentious, well. I am really, really angry right now. But I try as much as I can not to internet brawl these days. Thats all I have to say. Any community that excludes trans women is a fucked, broken community.

(and? it is REALLY dehumanising to refer to trans women as "MTFs" for goddsakes. Is it so hard to type out trans women??)

I agree and BFP is very supportive of them being in this space.

Also, some women actually prefer the term MTF to "transwoman". Both terms are accepted in the trans* community.

[BullDog]

When someone identifies as a lesbian it is not "anything goes." If it resonates and they want to participate then they should be welcomed. If it really isn't genuinely a part of who they are it is going to fade away, but really why should I care as long as they respectful and get along? And people figure things out as they go along, that's great too. I am not threatened by others who might be different than me being lesbian. Why should I be?

When I was in my early 20s living in Santa Cruz, CA there was a male named Michael who id'd as lesbian. He was always at lesbian dances and events. He wasn't some voyeuristic straight man leering. He was quiet and unassuming. Everyone would just be oh yeah there's Michael the lesbian. I really didn't know him, just would see him at events. I have no idea what his true feelings were, but he either id'd as lesbian or liked to hang out with us and didn't cause any problems. So who cares. It didn't make any of us into a ham sandwich or a cat or not lesbians.

[Nat]

I really feel that the conversation should be allowed to flow organically, it will eventually either be resolved, people will talk, evolve, but it's organic and no one is being to overly gross,

It's been painful yet great to see people's brain juices flow, and it's different people sharing their stuff not just 3 or 4.

Not that you care what I think, it's your thread, but I really wanted you to know that it's important what is happening.

I always care what you think Snowy. <3 you are one of my favorite people and you've impacted my life greatly just by being exactly who you are and refusing to compromise.

I started the thread but am not a mod and I have no strong intention of controlling the direction of this thread. I just hope butch voices aren't being silenced here in a rather delicate/vulnerable place where they have been invited to engage. If I weren't piled under a deluge of homework, I would probably try to figure out a good spin-off thread for the contentious issues.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I always care what you think Snowy. <3 you are one of my favorite people and you've impacted my life greatly just by being exactly who you are and refusing to compromise.

I started the thread but am not a mod and I have no strong intention of controlling the direction of this thread. I just hope butch voices aren't being silenced here in a rather delicate/vulnerable place where they have been invited to engage. If I weren't piled under a deluge of homework, I would probably try to figure out a good spin-off thread for the contentious issues.


I think inviting other folk who aren't butch is why we are all here, plus when it comes to femininity, that opens it up to well myself, I am feminine. I guess if anything the thread should of been for just butches, so that they would of been heard, kinda like we do in Femme threads.

Make sense?


I enjoy your thought provoking threads, I really do.. :hk2:

[fatallyblonde]

I agree and BFP is very supportive of them being in this space.

Also, some women actually prefer the term MTF to "transwoman". Both terms are accepted in the trans* community.

I have yet to meet a single trans woman who has said that. Maybe they are on this forum and can correct me, but I have myself been schooled in appropriate terminology by trans women. I also know that the space inbetween trans and woman is important also and considered more correct than transwoman - terminology evolves, especially when it comes to very marginalised and oppressed groups of people. Language imposed by outsiders (MTFs, transwomen) becomes outdated in favour of that defined by the group itself (trans women). I understand that it's easy to be a little bit behind proper terminology on occasion but I'm not making this up and I think part of being considerate to trans women is complying with new forms once aware of them.

I am intensely surprised some of the intelligent members of this community also seem to be unaware of the fact that the same rhetoric used to argue that trans men are still lesbians (!!!!) is the exact same rhetoric used to exclude trans women from women's and lesbian spaces.

This post isn't complete but I have to dash now... I don't think I want to contribute anymore anyway.

[ButchBowWow]

Interesting topic...



Over the years I've run into many conversations with people off-site who have hit my radar as butch-ish, but who feel like certain "feminine" traits they possess or express somehow exclude them or distance them from butchness.

I am butch who would some would call 'butch-ish' Nope, what another person thinks of my gender is no longer my concern.

Among things I've specifically heard: haircuts, relationship to make-up, pronouns, sexual preferences, wearing women's clothes or undergarments, even prefered roles within a family or relationship, even jobs held.

Yep, I've been told that I am not a butch because of my hair length, I like to fuck and get fucked, I cry at ATT&T commercials, etc.

This thread is intended as an opportunity for celebration of the femininity which can co-exist with being a butch. Because I think it's better to celebrate where there has perhaps been some tendency in the direction of shaming in our community and in the greater community.

Thank you.

Do you experience gender pressure from other butches or masculine people to amp up your masculinity or tone down your femininity in order to *qualify* as butch? Have you ever found yourself exerting gender pressure on self-identified butches? If you are not butch, have you ever found yourself pressuring butches to behave, dress, etc in more masculine ways than is natural?

I used to but what other humans think of me is of no concern to me. In my younger days, I remember saying things that make me cringe when I think about them. Then I grew up and realized that however someone expresses their gender is not for me to judge or be judged.

I guess I personally don't see make up as feminine. I grew up with boys wearing it- goth and punk rock, rock and roll glam... Heavy eyeliner and mascara with peacock hair was dangerous and edgy, not gendered....

I still want Jon Bon Jovi's hair!


Hmm.

I have what barbers call a box cut and a rattail and I wouldn't wear makeup if you paid me, and my wardrobe is certainly not femme in any way. I buy from the men's section as much as possible and go out of my way to not look what I perceive as 'girly'. But part of the reason I.. struggle is the wrong word, but it's the only one my post-gym brain can come up with. Part of the reason I struggle with whether I'm a butch or soft butch or whatever, not that it's exceptionally important but I'd like to know, is a couple of these almost feminine things.
I have taken up lawn bowls. Not exceptionally butch but it is fun and harder than it looks. I balance it out by doing weight lifting. Also much, much fun and so empowering.
I play classical piano. I have no idea where that sits but it is the one thing I will never, ever quit no matter what.
I'm almost a qualified librarian. Make of that what you will.
My biggest dream in the whole world is to have children. I want to get pregnant, give birth and breastfeed. That desire has been with me for YEARS and it's not going away. Is that un-butch? I feel like it's a female desire, but not necessarily a feminine one. After all, as I like to say, getting my period is my concession to being female. I would actually really appreciate people's views on this.

I think that ultimately, for me anyway, my butchness, however much there is of it, comes down to the way I like to present to the world, the way I like to approach dating, and the contents of my fantasies. The way I fill up my life doesn't really form part of that. My brain is mush right now and I think it's not really a black/white issue. Very interesting one, though, thanks for bringing it up.

All of that made sense in my head. Let me know if any of it needs clarifying and I will do it later when my brain wakes back up. Lol.

/Essay over. :o

I used to listen to those folks when I was in my late 20's-early 30's. I still have people question my butchness. Now in my late 40's I don't give a fuck, I am butch, how you (the general) perceive my gender doesn't really matter to me anymore. Butch is my gender and I may have traits that you (general) deem 'feminine' but it really isn't up to you to define how I 'do' butch. :)

[DapperButch]

I have yet to meet a single trans woman who has said that. Maybe they are on this forum and can correct me, but I have myself been schooled in appropriate terminology by trans women. I also know that the space inbetween trans and woman is important also and considered more correct than transwoman - terminology evolves, especially when it comes to very marginalised and oppressed groups of people. Language imposed by outsiders (MTFs, transwomen) becomes outdated in favour of that defined by the group itself (trans women). I understand that it's easy to be a little bit behind proper terminology on occasion but I'm not making this up and I think part of being considerate to trans women is complying with new forms once aware of them.

I am intensely surprised some of the intelligent members of this community also seem to be unaware of the fact that the same rhetoric used to argue that trans men are still lesbians (!!!!) is the exact same rhetoric used to exclude trans women from women's and lesbian spaces.

This post isn't complete but I have to dash now... I don't think I want to contribute anymore anyway.

My language is not outdated. I am a gender therapist. It is what I do for a living. I work with trans* people 5 days a week.

Next.

[Nat]

I did create a thread in the red zone specifically for lesbian love/hate within our community (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7231) for those who are interested in continuing that conversation

[C0LLETTE]

Bolsheviks vs Mensheviks, Lenin vs Trotsky, Marat vs Sade vs Robespierre, Jefferson vs Hamilton, MLK vs Malcolm X...etc. Seems all "movements have these schisms .
So my question is, Butler vs ?. Is there anyone within this community who cogently presents an antithetical view but is still accepted within the community? It's a small question but I am curious.

[weatherboi]

I agree terminology evolves but sometimes it doesn't matter. People get to choose for themselves.

I have yet to meet a single trans woman who has said that. Maybe they are on this forum and can correct me, but I have myself been schooled in appropriate terminology by trans women. I also know that the space inbetween trans and woman is important also and considered more correct than transwoman - terminology evolves, especially when it comes to very marginalised and oppressed groups of people. Language imposed by outsiders (MTFs, transwomen) becomes outdated in favour of that defined by the group itself (trans women). I understand that it's easy to be a little bit behind proper terminology on occasion but I'm not making this up and I think part of being considerate to trans women is complying with new forms once aware of them.

All my woman friends prefer just being called women. When asked what their preference when being identified as a group they identify as women. Not MTF woman or trans woman just woman. My friends, their preference, and their choice. Qualifiers are clinical and I am not into that. I am the same way. I am a guy and my name is Grant, not trans man Grant or FTM Grant.

I am intensely surprised some of the intelligent members of this community also seem to be unaware of the fact that the same rhetoric used to argue that trans men are still lesbians (!!!!) is the exact same rhetoric used to exclude trans women from women's and lesbian spaces.

I am not sure where anyone here said that men like me are still lesbians. I think someone said if a man like me wants to id as lesbian that it is ok. I understand what you are saying. I just don't see that here.

This post isn't complete but I have to dash now... I don't think I want to contribute anymore anyway.

[stargazingboi]

Bolsheviks vs Mensheviks, Lenin vs Trotsky, Marat vs Sade vs Robespierre, Jefferson vs Hamilton, MLK vs Malcolm X...etc. Seems all "movements have these schisms .
So my question is, Butler vs ?. Is there anyone within this community who cogently presents an antithetical view but is still accepted within the community? It's a small question but I am curious.

I believe there are. However, with any group of people debating one often sees support of each side being debated. Therefore, I have yet to see an opinion so different that a person had no support and alone and ultimately not accepted.

Then again...I could be misreading and not answering your question correctly

[Martina]

Butler vs ?. Is there anyone within this community who cogently presents an antithetical view but is still accepted within the community?

Kobi?

She is presenting like an old-fashioned identity politics feminist right now - although she has a post in which she talked about running into some hard core anti-trans essentialist ones and did not like what she found.

Trying to think who else. The Taliban? I am being facetious, but why would anyone want to reclaim identity politics? They don't make sense. I don't know. I am sure there are people. But the social construction of race and gender are pretty widely accepted, sort of a bedrock social theory.

Maybe biologists and psychologists who study the biological basis of sex and gender? For race, no. There is no other accepted theory.

[C0LLETTE]

Thanks stargazingboi. My q is a straightforward one. I was just wondering if someone had a name of one or two writers/thinkers/academics etc on this topic who present a view different than Butlers on the subject of inclusion/exclusion but were still respected in this community. I'm not presenting a pov just asking for info.

[C0LLETTE]

ok, thanks Martina.

[stargazingboi]

Thanks stargazingboi. My q is a straightforward one. I was just wondering if someone had a name of one or two writers/thinkers/academics etc on this topic who present a view different than Butlers on the subject of inclusion/exclusion but were still respected in this community. I'm not presenting a pov just asking for info.

Ahhh gotcha...when it comes to academics I cant think of anyone off the top of my head that are not respected overall. Perhaps, by individuals that I know but not as a community.

I have to be honest though....I still haven't read anything that was so out there in their view points that the community at large would turned their back.

For me it's the same thing I have heard over and over for years with different words

[Paradox]

This is a great thread because it illustrates the complexity of humanity with the sub category of this community. :)

There are recent posts where I agree with some and others not at all. However that would be the same for other members as well. It would be difficult for me to provide my opinion without stirring up contention. One main reason to this is how text can be interpreted. The drawback of cyber world.

A concern I have with no boundaries’ policy is leaves too many things up in the air and the lose of meaning. Live and let live yes, as long as no harm is done to another (as in regard to situation with absolutely no choice EX. family one is born into, medical condition, ethnicity etc). This I totally agree. However even with that, I think people forget or do not understand or realize there is price to pay (not necessarily in monetary terms) for every choice you make. Meaning people will not always like or agree with your decisions or chooses and they don’t have to. There is no free ride. ;)

[DapperButch]

Thanks stargazingboi. My q is a straightforward one. I was just wondering if someone had a name of one or two writers/thinkers/academics etc on this topic who present a view different than Butlers on the subject of inclusion/exclusion but were still respected in this community. I'm not presenting a pov just asking for info.

I pulled some books off my shelf and did a quick google search. I couldn't find anyone in direct opposition. What I came across was others' works that is similar in thought.

If you are interested in gender, you may appreciate Judith Halberstam's Female Masculinity.

[Martina]

A concern I have with no boundaries’ policy is leaves too many things up in the air and the lose of meaning.

There isn't a lot of meaning to many identity categories. I read a great book a long time ago about African American identity. The only thing all -- or even most -- African Americans have in common is having experienced the particular form of racism that is directed against African Americans in the United States. Every other thing that one might associate with the identity was not shared by a relatively significant portion of the group.

But being subject to racism does create a shared experience and a bond. On that happy day when there is very little racism against African Americans in this country, what will there be to create the identity African American? Nothing. Individual groups of African Americans will share interests, history, etc. But for the entire group, the only thing they'll have in common is that they chose to check the African American box on a form.

[C0LLETTE]

thank you Dapper Butch.It's much appreciated. I intend to do some reading. TY again.

[Cin]

I want to post cause I found Nat's thread asking about butch femininity pretty awesome. Not the usual stuff. And clearly I am posting because I really want to post in this thread, but I don't know what to say. I see the direction has changed a bit. And I don't know exactly what we are talking about. I'm trying to follow but i'm not sure I get it. I do understand that lots of people are digging it though and feel it's a really great convo. I'm glad. I really like people to be happy and to enjoy themselves. But I'm not sure exactly what it's all about.

However, I got the part about policing boundaries and the importance of softness about the edges. There is always slippage around the borders of things. It stresses some people, makes them anxious. I know we are not speaking geographically here but it is still a good example. The amount of give at borders depends on what you are trying to keep in but often more importantly what you are attempting to keep out. Crossing over from Canada to the US is easier than crossing over from Mexico. But wherever you are placing boundaries they need give. Margins need flexibility.

Personally I think anybody is a lesbian who says they are a lesbian. I think anybody is a butch who says they are a butch. I think anybody is a femme who says they are a femme. If you say you are a woman then you are a woman to me. If you say you are a man, you are a man to me. I respect other people's choices.

I know there are certain requirements that need to be met or words become meaningless and exchanges of ideas impossible because the ground keeps shifting. I suppose you can't just say you are Polish when you don't meet the criteria. But I don't want to be the one to have to tell someone they aren't Polish if they feel they are. I hate killing people's dreams.

I know that not all Muslims are terrorists. I know that some terrorists are radical Islamists. I would never negate someone's personal experience with terrorism perpetrated by radicals who happen to be Muslim by saying they should not talk about their horrible experience with terrorism just because there is way too much Muslim bashing going on. However, if there were a place where Muslims and those who have been victims of terrorism by radical Islamic terrorists shared space it might not be the sanest, safest, or fairest place to hash out prejudices against Muslims. I guess this is a terrible example but I can't think of a different one. I'm just trying to say that here on the Planet I don't think it is possible for lesbians to get a fair shake. Too much water under the bridge. Too much anger at them uppity women.

[C0LLETTE]

Miss Tick,
I know that yours was a serious considered post but I couldn't help laughing at someone dreaming to be Polish. I don't know why that strikes me as so funny but it does. Maybe cause I'm Polish.

[BullDog]

I figure if someone says they are a lesbian it must resonate with them. Otherwise why would they say that? I don't think being a lesbian is really in that high of demand or considered a big status symbol. It's not like saying I want to be a multi millionaire. I see it as an indication of who they see themselves to be and who they view as part of their community. If it turns out they have some nefarious reason it will all come out in the wash.

[Cin]

Miss Tick,
I know that yours was a serious considered post but I couldn't help laughing at someone dreaming to be Polish. I don't know why that strikes me as so funny but it does. Maybe cause I'm Polish.

I try to be serious with as much humor as possible. I don't see them as mutually exclusive. And I'm always glad to be responsible for laughter. :)

[Martina]

Even being Polish can illustrate the point. Think of the just these few ways of being Polish:


You grew up in America. Your grandparents on both sides came from Poland. You went to an Orthodox Church. You like pirogi. You do not speak Polish.

You were born in Ethiopia and adopted by Polish parents. You speak only Polish and are culturally Polish.

You were born in Poland of Polish parents, but adopted by a Czech couple. You are not culturally Polish. You do not speak the language.

You are an Israeli Jew whose grandparents came from Poland. Your Rabbi is from a lineage that originated in Poland. You speak no Yiddish and Hebrew. but no Polish

Your father is a guest worker in Poland, originally from Morocco. You are a teenager and identify as Moroccan because you do not feel accepted in the country of your birth. You speak Polish, Arabic and French.


Is there any one genetic, cultural or linguistic tie that unites all of these people? No. Yet, all of them have good reasons for claiming, or being called, Polish.

The example of some random person claiming to be Polish is a red herring. Those kind of outlier examples do occur -- the guy Bulldog knew in Santa Cruz -- but they are so rare as to be meaningless. We do not have to fear that a lot of people are going to claim lesbian if we do not police it sufficiently.

But the fact is, if we try to claim lesbian means a set of specific things, we will exclude. We have to accept people's self-identification.

[Cin]

But the fact is, if we try to claim lesbian means a set of specific things, we will exclude. We have to accept people's self-identification.

I will always accept people's self-identification. I can't help but define things for myself. I might figure something means a set of specific things but for me none of those things are set in stone, nor are they the only specific things that might define that particular something. You have a different definition that's cool with me. Why would I want to keep someone from what they feel is their identity? I'm so not interested in policing people's identities. I don't even want to police the definitions of words. I don't care how people define things. To me it doesn't change anything. It might require a bit more communication to understand each other, but nothing wrong with communication.

My wife and I can't even agree if something is blue or purple. It's blue to her, it's purple to me. What possible difference can it make?

[C0LLETTE]

Just for fun:
Yes, some of those people might have a reason for claiming to be Polish but if they tried to get Polish citizenship they would have to meet a stricter set of criteria set out by the Polish government otherwise Poland might be overrun by people wanting to be Polish and "Polish identity" might become an empty unuseful identifier.

That said, I do see where you're going with this.

[Cin]

Just for fun:
Yes, some of those people might have a reason for claiming to be Polish but if they tried to get Polish citizenship they would have to meet a stricter set of criteria set out by the Polish government otherwise Poland might be overrun by people wanting to be Polish and "Polish identity" might become an empty unuseful identifier.

That said, I do see where you're going with this.

All I can say is thank goodness there isn't a Lesbian government or a Butch government or a...just fill in any identifier you would like.

And even without a government of the Republic of Lesbian and people taking the identity of lesbian willy nilly, it still isn't an empty unuseful identifier.

Maybe people can choose for themselves, maybe identities can be stretched without losing their shape and the meaning of the identity completely?

[Okiebug61]

I've been reading this thread and I am now utterly confused.
I come from a time when being a "lesbian" was a good and proud thing. When did this change and would someone please define "lesbian" for me so Ill know what to watch out for.

I am lesbian hear me roar! I shall not be defined by others nor be boxed in by their definitions! I am me and will be happy within my own skin. I will not feel I have to change me or any part of me to please another! I will respect other lesbians and how they ID. Likewise I will expect the same!

[imperfect_cupcake]

Yeah but if anyone gets to ID as a lesbian, then cats, ham sandwiches and cis men will ID as one.

Sounds an awful lot like

Yeah but if we let gay people get married then people will want to marry their dog and their toaster ovens.


I'm personally not the femme police. I stopped giving a shit about who called themselves a femme years ago. Sincerely. I honestly don't. It does nothing to my person if 1:100000 people claiming femme is a cis man. Cause they won't. They don't have any interest in doing so. Guarding the boundaries of my gender is pointless cause not everyone wants to fucking join.

I really, really don't care. And I know what it's like to be told I'm not a lesbian. It STILL happens. Because some peoples definition is women with physical pussies that like to interact in ways that worship other women's and only other women's physical pussies and nothing but that pussy.

And you have to be gold star. Or you are forever and ever a bisexual.

Guess what though. They get to have that definition of lesbian. And I get to think they are full of shit, roll my eyes and want nothing to do with them and go play with the lesbians who like me to relate to their clitorus as a little female cock and put my fingers in their masculine vag hole. Yum. Or treat that whole area like a big fat dyke dick. With lips.

Or ANY way else they may see their genitalia, I have this magic wand in my head that I can wave and I actually see theirs that way too. It's part of my charm. That and my tits. And sometimes my brain. And my incredible way with words.

I pulled a back muscle and typing this on muscle relaxants is quite interesting. As is reading. It's also really painful so I'm going to stop now. But happy lunar new year! And jolly hard cocking vagina fun for everyone!

[Loren_Q]

With all the meandering about I'm not sure what this thread is about anymore. But the original post resonated with me, so here I go.

I like wearing eyeliner (that smokey eye thing) and shave my legs cause I like the feel. I value empathy and cooperation much more than I value sports or competition. I have long nails (on one hand). I cook well and often.

I value my being female as more important than my being butch (read this as personal, I value in this in myself and am not imposing this on anyone else)

And I'll be having formal tea with a friend while others are having fun with that superbowl thing.

These area the ways I celebrate my butch femininity. YMMV

Have I been pressured to conform to some "Butch ideal" to tone down my femininity? Yes I have, many times, by both butches and femmes. Of late more by femmes.

My response to the pressure is, for the most part, to smile and say "no thank you".

That's it for the OP, but one other thing I feel compelled to say. I don't post often; in part because I don't have anything of value to add but more often because it just doesn't feel safe here.

Too often offense and insult occur, perhaps with good cause, sometimes not. If my opinion is in the minority, it's not safe to voice it, so I don't, and frankly it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

I've felt this the entire time I've been on the planet, and it's okay I just wanted to put it out there. There's nothing to fix, and it's certainly not your job to make feel safe.

So I'll post now and again when I have something of value to add.

[Apocalipstic]

Oh My. Awesome Sunday morning read.

Several thoughts.....Keeping in mind I ID as a Lesbian.

Cats and sandwiches being able to be lesbians if they say they are is problematic on a couple of fronts....
a) I'm not sure about my cat, but I am pretty convinced my last sandwich did not have the ability to critically think and choose a sexual orientation.
b) To me, this argument sounds exactly like..."if gays can marry, then someone will think its OK to marry their goat."

Why do we give a fuck how other people ID, or for that matter...fuck? Why does that in any way affect us.

Why do we care if male IDd Butches flirt with Femmes? Clearly, its up to each individual Femme. Are we saying we poor delicate Femmes can't handle ourselves...or that we should be aghast if male oriented Butches or trans people find us sexy? If I'm on here flirting and talking lingerie or sex stuff...its because I want attention. Period. Hell, at 50, I'm damn glad people find me sexy. Hell Ya!! Female IDd, Male IDd, Femmes.....goats.

People who have a problem with specific groups being on this website and commenting are insecure and jealous and petty and weak and most of all...to quote the always fabulous Arwen...need to worry about what is within their own hula hoops. It continually fills me with wonder as to why people come on this site and get all upset that there are Butches and Femmes here...of all varieties. Look at the name of the fucking site. Gah.

Now.....on to Butch femininity....kisses to Nat!!!
For me...makeup is not a gendered thing and neither are clothes. Is makeup feminine specifically for me? No.
I'm not sure, for me, what I see as Butch feminity? Maybe I don't understand the question. Butch flamboyance? Butch Dandies? Artistic Butches? Butches who wear sequins? Love them all. Is that feminine to me? No. To me, its not gendered. Its Butch because a Butch chose that way to dress or be.

Am I making sense?

[PanDragon]

Appearances are just that.. 'Appearances'. I can't count the times I've been told I don't dress butch, my hair is not cut butch, a butch wouldn't do the things I do etc etc.
I have a very good friend who is butch and we have discussed this topic at length.
I, for a long time, questioned whether I was FTM because of an overpowering feeling of identifying as male. She embraces the woman she is. If you put us side by side you'd know in a heartbeat my friend is butch. Absolutely NO doubt about it, but she does not identify as male.
She is a brutally honest friend and I admire this in her. She said once that some butches wore men's underwear and she didn't go for that shit. I told her I wear men's underwear. She asked why?! I told her why then asked her if she wore girl panties. Some of our conversations were hilarious.
Over several summers we talked back and forth on this issue and then she said something that hit home for me. She said that first and foremost she was a woman and that the power of being a woman was to choose how she wanted to be in this life. Her choice, 'as a woman', was to be a butchy butch with all the trimmings she chose.
I understood from what she said that I didn't need to put masculinity into the definition of who/what I was.
It's not my fault they sell some of the clothing I like in the men's section!
We talked about strap on's and dildos and she does not strap on but I do. This does not mean I don't want my vagina! This does not mean I need to fill my jeans to prove a point. This does not mean I want a penis. I simply like how I feel when I strap on. It's a personal choice.
I am an older butch and grew up in a world where there were no words to define what I felt inside. The first word I understood was 'lesbian' and yes by golly I a that! Over the years the labels just keep coming. All in all I find labels extremely confusing. I personally have given up trying to define anybody based on appearances or behavior. What matters to me most now is who I am, what I'm made of in terms of character, who you are, what you're made of in terms of character and that they never take the labels off food cans. Nuff said for now :hangloose:

[Apocalipstic]

I'm Femme and I strap on.

I've dated Butches who like it and Butches who are not into it. It does not make any of us more or less anything.

I do like eating pussy, but as HBarbara so eloquently put it, I usually don't call it that. Do I have to do it to be sexually gratified. No.

Does this make the Butches who like being fucked feminine? NO.

If I date a Trans Guy, am I less Femme? No.

And another thing, I am tired of people telling other people who they can and can't be. Gah.

Appearances...well put!

[Paradox]

There isn't a lot of meaning to many identity categories. I read a great book a long time ago about African American identity. The only thing all -- or even most -- African Americans have in common is having experienced the particular form of racism that is directed against African Americans in the United States. Every other thing that one might associate with the identity was not shared by a relatively significant portion of the group.

But being subject to racism does create a shared experience and a bond. On that happy day when there is very little racism against African Americans in this country, what will there be to create the identity African American? Nothing. Individual groups of African Americans will share interests, history, etc. But for the entire group, the only thing they'll have in common is that they chose to check the African American box on a form.

I completely agree for that one point. Expanding ... which resonates for 95% of people of African Descent (or of darker skin tone) - regardless of country. As the example with Polish. Unless someone says there are Polish, I wouldn't know. They would be under the sub category of Caucasian. Times of changed a few more interracial mixes, but no matter what there are meaningful categories that still remain as such Black/African ...., some based upon regional ancestry but more base on what is 'seen', easily recognizable, by appearance where perceptions and assumptions rise. I could be a third generation American of African descent or a visitor from Sierra Leone. Most people will pre-judge (from stereotypical viewpoints etc). Pre-Judgeing happens from either side but more often than not towards those of African descent.

Labels in general carry a double edge sword. Be too specific and risk alienating. Be too broad loose sense of 'standards' (not the exact word I wanted to use - my mind just went blank).They are important, however can be misused or ill defined.

Appearance is variable that can make or break a label for many. Within the LGBT community is no exception.. From my experience I've been tagged butch soley on the way I 'look'. I have been criticized a few times for not 'behaving' butch enough. And my reply would be 'you made the assumption I was or should act butch based on my appearance. Not on who I am as a person'.

I use the term butch sparingly now - with an added disclaimer ;)

[Martina]

Why do we care if male IDd Butches flirt with Femmes? Clearly, its up to each individual Femme. Are we saying we poor delicate Femmes can't handle ourselves...or that we should be aghast if male oriented Butches or trans people find us sexy? If I'm on here flirting and talking lingerie or sex stuff...its because I want attention. Period.

I think if it's a thread devoted to femmes and our thoughts about our bodies or what makes us feel sexy, having someone who is not femme come in and make creepy noises is annoying and even triggering for some. Harrassment does exist in our community -- in many forms. And I think we need to say as much. A lot of femmes do respond to those instances with a whoa, can you just go now. It's cool when folks groove on it. But if enough people feel like a jerk just walked into the changing room with her dick in her hand, then, yes, we should say something.

[Apocalipstic]

I think if it's a thread devoted to femmes and our thoughts about our bodies or what makes us feel sexy, having someone who is not femme come in and make creepy noises is annoying and even triggering for some. Harrassment does exist in our community -- in many forms. And I think we need to say as much. A lot of femmes do respond to those instances with a whoa, can you just go now. It's cool when folks groove on it. But if enough people feel like a jerk just walked into the changing room with her dick in her hand, then, yes, we should say something.

Agreed,

What I was trying to say is that we don't need anyone to protect us from male id Butches ogling us. If we don't want someone to ogle us, we can handle it ourselves. A dressing room at least gives the expectation of privacy. The Internet does not.

[Martina]

Agreed,

What I was trying to say is that we don't need anyone to protect us from male id Butches ogling us. If we don't want someone to ogle us, we can handle it ourselves.

Excellent point.

[Random]

Yes, I understand your objections. How would you phrase a bare-bones, dictionary definition of a lesbian? (That was all I was trying to get at. There are differences and nuances I recognize, outside life in a dictionary.)

Thank you for your direct, and respectful, response, btw. That was great.

Ummm.. A lesbian is someone who ID's as a lesbian?

[puddin']

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/26964848/butch-not-like-the-other-girls


support if you can, and please share it along... ta

[dykeumentary]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/q_58qgPqHqk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This is my latest video about the "gender policing" that happens to butch dykes.
Here's the link, in case i didnt get that right - http://youtu.be/q_58qgPqHqk

[vagina]

I love for Butch to be all woman and to me that is femininity. That a Butch can be a woman and be proud of herself.

The muscles, button-up shirts and guys clothes and it's that the femininity that attracts me.