Question to butches and how they deal with differences in dating

[imperfect_cupcake]

It's a novella, I apologise. Please have patience. If you want to skip to the point without context, scroll to the bold bit and larger print, you lazy sod :p

I've broken it into as many small paragraphs as possible for easier reading and put the hypothetical in a different colour to separate it out

I think I probably have only "asked the butches" very, very few times in my 20 year career as a femme...

I know that just because you all share an ID will not mean you see things the same way. I'm not that special kind of idiot lol. However, I do want to hear a plethora of views of how YOU deal with a difference in dating values.

I'm going to give you a scenario - please bear with me, I know I'm long winded but I personally think context and background is really, really important in trying to understand a matter rather than going on "rules."

Someone said that when they see someone they like "bang" they know it and they want it and they want to go after it. That's why when they like someone, they want monogamy for the get go.

I'm very much NOT that kind of person. I do feel chemistry with people, of course. But often just because that chemistry is there, does not mean we will be compatible in the long run. There are too many other things to take into consideration than chemistry (really "getting" each other) for instance there is how we fight, how they communicate, what their values are around certain things, how much they drink or smoke pot, ideas around spirituality or religion, and treatment of others.

I have had amazing and incredibly good chemistry with people who *really* got me, sincerely and absolutely, but who were also active addicts, or binge drinkers, or lied about other women, or were shit at keeping promises, or had mood disorders and bad tempers, or didnt share some values with me about certain things that didn't come up till four or five months in. Or although the sex matched initially, after the first smoke, we found we weren't all that compatible sexually, five or six months in.

This is why I am not someone that trusts instant chemistry and a great click. Yes, I need to feel that deep "understanding" to start to explore possibilities. I do think it's a good sign.

But I'm not that "I know what I want when I see it" girl. I don't put everything on that deep click and "understanding" because I've been with people where even with that, it went horribly wrong. I need to trust someone first before I go there. And that, for me, takes time. I don't trust people off the bat. It takes me a long time.

So I don't do things that way. I don't do monogamy from the get go. I want to know more than the click and the chemistry before I make a commitment. To *me* monogamy is a *BIG* commitment and I don't do getting to know someone when it's required I make a big commitment (to me) off the bat.

I can see that perhaps if we've been good friends for a couple years and suddenly we date (I've done this and had my first long term relationship ship this way, it was great. Totally willing to do that again). But NOT if we met through dating site and I've only met you two or three times over a three or four hour date.

It's been explained to me now why some people do that - because they feel they "know" right away. And I can't, because I don't feel that way. I just don't work that way. I don't even get crushes on people unless I sleep with them first. I don't get and never have gotten "a crush from afar".

If you want to skip to the point, without context, read from here

So here is the question - if you met someone that you had interest in - that you admire, respect, desire and have that fire of "know what you want" for - who dosen't do courting (monogamous only seeing each other) right away, but only does dating with no exclusivity or promises until they know you much better, before they even *think* of courting, even if they agree there is a good click, what would you do?

Would you push her to commit? Give her an ultimatum? Try to do things a new way? Walk away? Try to reach a middle ground?

You've been on two or three dates with them, say, and spend time sending each other emails and call each other for long chats a twice a week. You want monogamy, but she doesn't feel she knows you well enough to make that call and probably won't for three or four months, at least. Your metaphorical balls are turning blue and going to drop off because you are discussing sex, quite openly and I'm great detail, it's an important topic to her. You really want to have sex. She hesitates about it because she knows that you take sex very seriously, right off the bat.

She says she doesn't mind if you go on dates and talk to others because she doesn't expect exclusivity at this point in time. She will not be pushed, she's fiery and has excellent boundaries. Her no means absolutely not. But she is kind, generous, sweet, nurturing, honest, and much more vulnerable than she'll let people on to.

She normally also has sex with people without exclusivity at this point because to her and her history, it's normal and practical to get to know each other sexually as well before making commitments, like monogamy. Yes, even if she thinks you are the bees knees and have a fabulous click.

So? Tell me what you would do if you we starting to date this girl.

addendum:

If this isn't you (courting instead of dating) put yourself in the opposite box... You like someone, they seem different than most people, you are interested in meeting someone different, there is a nice click and you want to get to know them. You do dating (non exclusive getting to know) they only do courting (exclusive and romantic off the bat) What do you do? How do you work that out? Would you?

[MysticOceansFL]

It's really between the two people involved who are dating long distance , using Skype and emailing each other is a form of keeping touch with someone you care about and getting to know the other person. I would rather do online first because you find out things about the other person personality wise plus ( If they have an ex persay they are obsessed over her I would stay clear it's nothing but drama on both their parts) If your single be honest about it from the start if your not single do the same cause I'm like most butches I have morals and I'm not into femmes who are with someone. And as far as knowing about someone as in the ( click ) you can tell that online some but mostly that happens after you meet them in person.

[MrSunshine]

I think you've answered your own question in your post that I read and was not a lazy sod ;)

If we can't agree on how things roll from the beginning I don't see much of a point in continuing.
But, I'm at the age where I'm way past just some chemistry. There has to be a whole lot more than "I like them"
I'm not going to invest my precious time on someone who wants to run the streets and take their time with me. Fuck that!

[imperfect_cupcake]

I'm already not understanding the answers...

Lol

You've met the person a couple of times, three or four hours each time, haven't slept with them, you are just talking. She's holding off sleeping with you because she's trying to be respectful of how you feel about sex till you can come to an agreement.

Let's pretend this hypothetical person is a real person who is nurturing, caring, generous and ME. And doesn't like hurting people. Not a game player. I need much, much more than chemistry, although that has to be there - that deep feeling of being understood. That's why I need to learn about people before I make commitments. I'm 45 and been around too many blocks. I like learning people first, and building trust.

So can we go from there?

Mr sunshine, I also have zero clue what "run the streets and take their time with me" means ... It looks like "if she doesn't subscribe to immediate monogamy, she's a slut" but I'm not sure if that's what you mean...

[MrSunshine]

Mr sunshine, I also have zero clue what "run the streets and take their time with me" means ... It looks like "if she doesn't subscribe to immediate monogamy, she's a slut" but I'm not sure if that's what you mean...

Fuck! No, I don't mean that at all. This is why I usually don't bother to try to have a serious conversation in forums. It's just to hard for someone else to figure out what your trying to say.
I hope you find the answers you're looking for.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Lol!!! Well, that's ok. That's why I asked. What does that saying mean, I ve never heard it before? Clarification is always a really good thing when using our talky holes and typing.

I'm not angry. I think you'd have to do a lot worse than that to offend me....

Pardon if my bluntness made it sound as if I was.

[MasterfulButch]

To provide context for my answer, yes, I’m the sort of butch who chooses monogamy for myself as soon as there’s a special femme in my life. This is not done in the mentality of imposing a rule and it isn’t something that feels like any kind of sacrifice to me. On the contrary, it comes with an awareness that someone in my social sphere has achieved a certain level in my affections and this is something to be celebrated. The monogamy choice is like a by-product of this positive realisation.

One thing that I would like to flag straight away is that, from my perspective, sex goes way beyond the physical and I think this is a differentiation that could really impact on the questions you’re asking. For me it’s probably 80% emotional and 20% physical. From what I’ve seen this differs from person to person but I find it translates to a situation where I’m only likely to be intimate with someone with whom I experience a significant depth of emotion and have a belief in at least potential longevity. There have been a couple of instances where I have acted against this approach and frankly, they were far more to do with my own fears at the time than a positive, empowered choice. I am not saying this applies to anyone else, just me. Anyway, now I’m a bit older and I’ve learnt from these experiences, I’m pretty settled that for me, sex equates to an intimacy that I want to indulge in within the confines of a relationship. I guess to follow this thought to its conclusion; this means that being single pretty much equates to being celibate for me.

With that background established, I am now thinking about your question as to how I would deal with the scenario you describe. I think the most important thing to me was that she was open with me. I would want to know that these are her thoughts and feelings on the matter, perhaps some reassurance that it’s a general thing and not me specifically and then honesty that she is seeing other people in a similar way. I would need to know all this early because it would have an effect on how I handled myself. I don’t think it would necessarily pre-empt my interest because I think so much of her in other, more important areas. I would, however, have to hold myself back more and actually have mentally grounding conversations with myself. The other thing is I don’t think I could sleep with her whilst she was sleeping with other people. I could wait, certainly, potentially for many months of getting to know one another. I guess this is the time when you’d find out about substance habits, spiritual beliefs and the value sets you’ve mentioned but once we mutually agreed to cross that intimacy barrier then I’d need her to suspend dating others. If sex was great and it was all going swimmingly then yes, I’d be looking for mutual monogamy at that point. If sex was persistently incompatible then we’d call it a day and she could once again date as she pleased.

Reading this over, I suppose it does rather sound both like an attempt to find a middle ground and an ultimatum. I don’t like the idea of giving someone an ultimatum but then I guess we all have things that are important to us, some we can flex whilst others would feel like a loss if we did. I don’t think I would like the person I would be if I was sitting at home imagining my lover being out and intimate with someone else. It is because of who I am and the peculiarities of my personality, that I would feel that what she and I shared was somehow diminished. My insecurities would flare and I would be such a fretful arse that I wouldn’t even want to be around myself. I wouldn’t want to be that person for me or for her. I totally get it that other people would feel completely different and I whole-heartedly respect that. I guess my ultimate litmus test would be whether or not I felt empowered. I can imagine feeling empowered having my value set and being monogamous. I can also imagine feeling empowered if I were more adventurous, had a more physical approach to sex and we were both out there exploring and enjoying what life had to offer, whether or not it was together. If there isn’t an area of common ground we could find where we both felt empowered then I would say that it wasn’t the right pairing.

I hope this is of some help to you.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Ah ok, that is helpful, actually. Because I don't feel deeper intimacy with someone until I've been talking with them, being with them and having sex for a while. I don't open up that deep till I trust. So to me, if I have dinner and a chat with someone else, it's just dinner and a chat. I don't feel I've exchanged anything intimate. I don't feel I've given over anything intimate. When I *do* start feeling intimate, when I start trusting someone, then I feel ok about talking about monogamy, but to me it would feel like someone im having coffee with tells me "you can't can coffee with other people because of the way I feel about having coffee"
I find it just as baffling. So that does help me to understand that even a single conversation to you is deeply intimate. I take it that you are really deeply intimate with just a very few friends and don't have just happy casual aquainances you talk about things that don't feel intimate with?

Because I'm starting to suspect this is part of the issue. I can have really indepth, open, connective and happy conversation about subjects people feel private about and I just don't. It's very easy for me to do that. My *intimate* conversations are about really deep feelings, and intimacy to me is about when people help me, like drive me to the bank when I'm really sick. I would never, ever let anyone help me with things unless they were my partner or my parent or a very close friend.

For instance I was dating someone and I fell, smacked my head and got knocked out and got a concussion, I called my dad but he didn't pick up. I was at a little clinic and decided to walk to the train, even though they were worried about me walking alone. I did not want to call my date because I had not been seeing her long enough to ask her to help me like that. That is very intimate to me. So I'm assuming that having dinner and a conversation, which is just social lubricant to me, means something equally intimate to them.

That's why I don't go out for ice cream, or do certain activities with people - like weekend holidays or museums or cook dinner for them - unless I feel past the stage of just going out and having meals and drinks in pubs and getting to know them.

I am guessing that for some people, meals and drinks and long talks i pubs and a movie here and there are very intimate. I can understand that.

I guess then there is just finding activities that neither of us find really intimate in order to get to know each other. Bit difficult if someone has already decided they want what they want, but I can at least get a grasp of it now. Thank you masterful butch, that was actually quite helpful.

[WickedFemme]

I'm a little confused...lol... People move at different speeds... I would never push someone into a corner and insist that they choose. Things are either good or they are not. If there are too many differences I just move on.

[MrSunshine]

Lol!!! Well, that's ok. That's why I asked. What does that saying mean, I ve never heard it before? Clarification is always a really good thing when using our talky holes and typing.

I'm not angry. I think you'd have to do a lot worse than that to offend me....

Pardon if my bluntness made it sound as if I was.


LoL. I'm just frustrated because it's hard to make a point sometimes.
Plus, that was a long ass post and a lot to sort through.
I like bluntness, you should have started there :)

Personally, I like things to be easier.

But, I guess if I met someone that wanted to take things slower or faster than me and we had everything that clicked then I would just roll with it and see where it went. I guess try not to get ahead of myself.

I would never call a woman a slut unless she wanted me too ;)

[imperfect_cupcake]

I guess it depends on what one is looking for.

For me, they have to be kinky and dominant, within three hours drive, open minded, wanting a primary partner, same sense of humour, have their shit sorted, sane, not an alcoholic or smoking pot daily, more intelligent than most and really good at communication.

"Easy" is lower on my list. I've dated 10 people in the last 3 years. All of them have been problematic in ways like turning out to be a binge drinker, or winds up having a fairly crippling anxiety disorder that they didn't mention, or wants me to support them, or....

So when I meet someone local, my age range, very intelligent, attractive, funny, dominant, understands a lot of stuff without having to explain myself too much, isnt a binge drinker, has her shit sorted, and is really kind and generous - I'd like to think I can take some of her surface values into consideration without dismissing her or them, off hand. If I'm actually open for something long term to happen. Im not 35 anymore and I'm not in London.
There isn't a dirth of sane and sorted single local butches wanting to play me Mona Lisa on the Ukelele and see how it goes. In fact, I don't know of any.

So I have to be flexible *somewhere* if I want to try and do things differently.

I was just wondering if there are others other there who are flexible to a degree IF they know CONTEXT or if they respond to situations by a set of rules they adhere to.


To be to the point.

I'm suspecting that most people run on a set of rules. Or perhaps flexibility within those rules. But usually people don't deviate off a set of rules unless they have context and reason. Which is why I gave an annoyingly long post.

I'm also used to having longer posts as I'm one of those annoying fuckers that partook in the theory threads. I'm blunt, but I'm totally a context whore. Context can change the colour of a picture completely.

Apologies for my details. I'm not good at fluffy threads. I'm pretty damn cerebral.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Or maybe the answer is "I dunno, I dont think about it"

Which is also a valid response.

[Ginger]

I feel totally confused by this thread and I'm too impatient to read more carefully so that's all on me.

That said, I think I'm hearing that people commit to monogamy at different points in the continuum of getting close, and sometimes that is problematic.

I'm monogamous and usually start having sex before I know someone very well. That hasn't worked well for me, so I'm changing my strategy.

Good luck, everyone!

[Gráinne]

I was wondering why this was addressed to butches-is it because they are more traditionally the "pursuer" in dating/courting?

While I don't feel bound by rigid "rules", it just comes down to: If someone is moving at a far different speed with regards to dating/courting/intimacy than I am, chances are we're not a good pairing anyway and I move on. And yes, the "click" of connection or recognition can happen, maddeningly, even when compatibility isn't there. That's why, for me personally, I don't want to get physically vulnerable until I know that person much better.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Grianne, I actually wanted to hear what butches because they tend to be more conservative (in my expereince only, and this IS NOT a blanket statement, just a general trend I've noticed) around sex - perhaps because of the whole gender thing requiring greater vulnerability during sex? Who knows. It's anecdotal anyway.

And because I just wanted to.

[imperfect_cupcake]

For those who are confused, I apologise. I like context heavy, meaty discussions with lots of things to think about in it. I'm not really a "here's a brief question, Gimmie your drive by answer" kinda thread gal. In 2010 these kinds of threads were common and why I kept going to forums. I'm not a simple question/simple answer kind of gal. I like deconstruction and examination. Apologies. Perhaps this kind of discussion is really out of place, then.

Please ignore if it's confusing and muddled and too long.

[imperfect_cupcake]

That said, I think I'm hearing that people commit to monogamy at different points in the continuum of getting close, and sometimes that is problematic.


Good luck, everyone!

Ding! That's it entirely. Sometimes that isn't about "speed" as some people commit to monogamy easily and casually and they don't mean it to be as serious as *I* see it when the word monogamy gets whipped out.

If I am actually jiving with someone on all others levels, then this problem is something I personally am fine with questioning intent over and coming to a deeper understanding.

But I'm asking others what they think about
"People commit to monogamy at different points in the continuum" and how they approach a bump in it.

[Candelion]

I think I'm hearing that people commit to monogamy at different points in the continuum of getting close, and sometimes that is problematic.





This was so beautifully worded. Sometimes cerebral and erudite thinking comes in a succinct format. Verbosity isn't always the best way to go.

Interesting thread, imperfect_cupcake!

[imperfect_cupcake]

You should see my 16 page emails.

[imperfect_cupcake]

This was so beautifully worded. Sometimes cerebral and erudite thinking comes in a succinct format. Verbosity isn't always the best way to go.

Interesting thread, imperfect_cupcake!


Glad you think it's interesting :)

So then what would you do if you ran into that problem that ginger stated?

[Candelion]

Glad you think it's interesting :)

So then what would you do if you ran into that problem that ginger stated?


I didn't previously answer your question because you had specifically directed it to butches, but since you have asked me specifically...

For me, if the chemistry (physical, mental, and emotional) is strong enough, I don't have a problem committing to exclusivity. In fact, if I feel a strong connection with someone, there is no other option for me but to be exclusive. Exclusivity doesn't mean I am committing to a life-long pairing, but it does mean I am focusing my attention exclusively on that one special person in order to build on that initial chemistry and to see if the attraction grows into a strong bond that will lead to a long term commitment. For me, if both parties are not interested in seriously exploring their attraction to each other, the chemistry just isn't strong enough to continue. In other words, if the difference in the way in which we approach budding relationships is so vastly different, I would take it as a sign to move on. I just don't think there would be any strategies to bridge that kind of a gap.


*When I use the term exclusivity, it means I am exclusive with my romantic attentions. This does not mean I neglect my career, friends, or other interests.

[SleepyButch]

This stuff has been pretty fresh on my mind lately since I am putting my toes back into the dating pool.

The beauty of this whole thing is that we are all different. If I'm interested in someone enough to get to know them, I am flexible in how things play out. If she wants to be courted, I court her, meaning if I am really interested in getting to know someone and she wants me not to date anyone else, I don't.

If she just wants to date, I'm okay with that as well as long as I know where she stands and what she wants from dating. For example, if she NEVER wants to commit and just wants to have fun, depending on where I am in my life, I may just walk away. If she wants to take time to know me before any commitment then who am I to try to push her into monogamy when that is something she doesn't want at that point? Wouldn't that make her not like me very much from the get go?

In all honesty, my ego has a hard time understanding sometimes why someone I'm dating/getting to know would want to see someone else but that is not reality. That's just my own little fantasy. I like attention. What can I say? I know it doesn't work like that.

So back to your questions:

If someone I was interested in didn't want to commit until she knew me better, I'm okay with that. I would just date her. I wouldn't push her or give her an ultimatum. If I was wanting a committed relationship, I'd be honest with her about what I was looking for and that if we did click after several months, I would probably want that with her eventually.

I'm conflicted about the sex stuff though. I don't really like having sex with someone who is having sex with others but yet sex isn't always about monogamy either. Does that even make sense? So it would depend on the person I was getting to know on whether or not this would be a deal breaker for me.

I'm not really one to go around having multiple sex partners either when I'm looking for a special someone. Tried that in my last relationship and it was okay but not something I'd want long term I don't think.

Did I answer any of your questions or just manage to confuse everyone including myself?

Nothing is carved in stone and would like to think that most things are negotiable if I thought she was worth getting to know.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Nope you answered! And that seems like a good answer.

Thing is with monogamy and sex, I tend not to have multiple sex partners, it's very very rare I do. However, I don't like making the commitment of promising not to, before I know the person. It doesn't mean I'm going to go sleep with three other people. It means I don't like feeling like I've just signed a locked in contract to someone I don't know wherein my behaviour is controlled by their wants. Why would I promise someone I am just getting to know, ownership over my body? It is to do with ownership and control, for me, not that I'm going to go shag three other people.

Yes, even if I really, really like them. Even if I think they are the best thing I've met in a bajillion years. I will still, no matter how much I think they are better than everybody else, not want exclusivity until I know them much, much better.

I am happy to give that commitment over further in, but it feels like I'm handing a chastity key to my body over to a stranger, just cause we've had sex once. I don't like that feeling. And until I'm comfortable with who they are and what they are about, I don't give ownership of my body over to anyone. Except myself. Perhaps it's because I'm a submissive and I know what it feels like when someone wants to own my body - and part time that is fine - but when I walk out the door, my body belongs to me only. Until that person become my daddy/papi and that doesn't happen just because I have sex once. That happens when I can trust them. And that takes a long time.

But it is nice to hear people have an idea of flexibility.

Thanks sleepy.

[NitroChrys_Butch]

For those who are confused, I apologise. I like context heavy, meaty discussions with lots of things to think about in it. I'm not really a "here's a brief question, Gimmie your drive by answer" kinda thread gal. In 2010 these kinds of threads were common and why I kept going to forums. I'm not a simple question/simple answer kind of gal. I like deconstruction and examination. Apologies. Perhaps this kind of discussion is really out of place, then.

Please ignore if it's confusing and muddled and too long.

IMHO there are not enough meaty discussions. This kind of discussion is not out of place. Please continue to put thought-provoking questions out "there" .

[The_Lady_Snow]

Cupcake,

Do you feel this is a Butch behavior more than it is a Femme behavior? Are butches more likely to jump into monogamy than Femme's?

[Ginger]

Cupcake,

Do you feel this is a Butch behavior more than it is a Femme behavior? Are butches more likely to jump into monogamy than Femme's?



Just to jump in, even though The Lady Snow didn't ask me, she asked Imperfect Cupcake,

in my experience, as soon as I sleep with a butch woman, she wants monogamy with me and is very hurt if I don't feel the same way.

But moving forward, I only want to sleep with someone I really care about, and have intentions of putting the energy into seeing if there is relationship potential there.

But what a good question. I guess I could generalize and say butches tend to want monogamy more that femmes but that's just based on the narrow sampling of my own (limited) experience—which I intend to change.

[DapperButch]

I'm suspecting that most people run on a set of rules. Or perhaps flexibility within those rules. But usually people don't deviate off a set of rules unless they have context and reason. Which is why I gave an annoyingly long post.

I'm also used to having longer posts as I'm one of those annoying fuckers that partook in the theory threads. I'm blunt, but I'm totally a context whore. Context can change the colour of a picture completely.

Apologies for my details. I'm not good at fluffy threads. I'm pretty damn cerebral.

For those who are confused, I apologise. I like context heavy, meaty discussions with lots of things to think about in it. I'm not really a "here's a brief question, Gimmie your drive by answer" kinda thread gal. In 2010 these kinds of threads were common and why I kept going to forums. I'm not a simple question/simple answer kind of gal. I like deconstruction and examination. Apologies. Perhaps this kind of discussion is really out of place, then.



Don't you DARE apologize for wanting to have a theoretical discussion on this site! Many of us thirst for those discussions that were the norm on butch-femme.com and here when this site first started. Where everyone who enjoys those discussions have gone (or maybe where the people who initiates those types of discussion have gone), I don't know.

To answer the question. What you are presenting as a way to approach dating (the person who wants to feel things out and not commit right away), seems very healthy to me. A person who is so fast to commit because you are so perfect for them, yet would be willing to walk away if you aren't ready for that level of commitment, would make me think that their desire ("need") to be in a relationship trumps their desire to be with the right person.

Big red flag right there my dear!

You asked about our own approach. It depends on how far the person and I are apart from what we are looking for. If I know I am looking for a long term relationship, a life partner, and the person I am dating is not looking for that at all, but is only looking for a casual thing, then I probably wouldn't date them. Or, I might and just have a casual thing, while I am still looking to find a partner who wants the long term thing.

However, if I met someone who was open to a long term partner if they found the right person, but was not in a rush I would see what happened if I really like them. (your example). Why wouldn't I?

So, it comes down to how close the person is to what I am looking for and if they are going in the same direction as me.

I hope this isn't a real life scenario. This person is putting you in an unfair position if they are saying they will leave if you don't commit immediately. Personally, with the little time you have spent together, I think it is a red flag. If they knew they wanted a commitment right away from someone, that should be talked about right up front. Then you may have decided to not date.

On the other hand, this jumping into monogamy in the "lesbian" community is such the norm, the person may not even thought to bring it up.

[DapperButch]

Cupcake,

Do you feel this is a Butch behavior more than it is a Femme behavior? Are butches more likely to jump into monogamy than Femme's?

I like this question and I hope people jump in to discuss it.

Just to jump in, even though The Lady Snow didn't ask me, she asked Imperfect Cupcake,

in my experience, as soon as I sleep with a butch woman, she wants monogamy with me and is very hurt if I don't feel the same way.

But moving forward, I only want to sleep with someone I really care about, and have intentions of putting the energy into seeing if there is relationship potential there.

But what a good question. I guess I could generalize and say butches tend to want monogamy more that femmes but that's just based on the narrow sampling of my own (limited) experience—which I intend to change.

My gut reaction is this......

Young butches/femmes (up to maybe 30/early 30's) want monogamy right away.

Past early 30's I think that butches desire to settle into a relationship more quickly than femmes the same age. My experience is that it is this age that femmes kind of "grow into their own". They become more confident, more empowered to be who they want to be, and less anxious about being in a relationship.

For some reason, I don't think butches move into this in the same sort of way. I don't know what that is about, but over my 15 years of being on b-f sites, this is something I have noticed. There is a larger population of older butches dating younger femmes than the reverse. I think that this often are the butches who want the quick monogamy factor (I am thinking maybe mid-later 30's butches who dating mid-late 20's femmes).

Admittedly, I haven't thought about this before, so this is a quick gut response.

I am curious to see if our gender identities (butch/femme) and our ages and the ages we date will play a factor in our perceptions and personal experiences.

I think it was be great if people were willing to state their gender identity/age when they post, as it will add fodder to the discussion.

I'll go first. I am a 44 year old butch.

Thanks for the topic, cupcake!

[candy_coated_bitch]

I am 37 years old and a Queer Femme.

I like to take things VERY slowly when dating/getting to know a new person. I'm like a skittish horse and it's very easy to make the wrong move with me if I am approached too quickly. I want a monogamous primary partner, I want to share my life with someone. This is something I WANT in life. (I have not always been in a place to attempt a relationship, but it is something I have always ultimately wanted.) I do well with monogamy, and when I feel I have had enough time to get to know someone and our dynamic and workings together I have no problem committing fully. Until I have had enough time, though, I am a total commitment-phobe and will run to the nearest exist if I feel pressured to make some kind of deep commitment quickly.

However--butches/guys (and I suspect people in general, but that's my dating pool so that's what I'm commenting on) usually want to move way more quickly than I do. I like to take my time to get to know someone and feel it takes a number of months to get a good sense of a person. If I feel someone wants some kind of commitment from me too soon I freak the fuck out. I will usually say something in a nice way that basically means you need to chill the fuck out or I'm gonna cut and run. And if someone can't respect my need to take things slow before a commitment is made I *WILL* cut and run.

I can get on the same page with someone if I really like them and we are compatible and the chemistry and all that is there. I will get there if someone can be patient. I WANT the relationship, I just don't want it all at once up in my face after a few conversations, or one date, or having fucked once. It REALLY makes me panic. I don't like the pressure and I have trust issues so I like to take my time and really know what I am getting into. And I absolutely believe that takes TIME.

For me, it's not about feeling shackled in a sexual manner, it's not a feeling I experience in my body--but rather more in my emotional center. I have only in one period of time in my history where I have had more than one sexual partner, and I'm very selective with whom I have sex, and I don't really enjoy sex unless I know someone a bit. However, I feel like somehow most people need to get some perspective that there's something between completely casual sex and we've-had-sex-once-and-we're-married-for-life. Phew! I don't generally have too many issues feeling sexually trapped, but I do have issues feeling emotionally trapped. But the sex and the feels get messy and overlap so the sex part is often involved. I don't like feeling emotionally pinned down into something before I am ready and I just simply can't make it work if a butch does not respect that.

So, I dunno. I feel like I come at this from a similar perspective as you, imperfect_cupcake. I'm not a butch and I also need to take dating/relationships on the slower side of things and often feel like potential partners just don't get it. Sometimes no matter how much chemistry there is, two people may just not be going in the same direction or want the same type of relationship. And there's not much that can be done about that. BUT, if two people are going in the same direction and want the same type of relationship (like say ultimately being in a monogamous relationship) and one of them needs more time to be comfortable committing to that, then that seems workable to me if the other person is willing to be patient. I have definitely been in situations where people CANNOT be patient, though. That also does tell me a lot because it's about my emotional boundaries and if they can't respect them off the bat then we have problems.

[SleepyButch]

My gut reaction is this......

Young butches/femmes (up to maybe 30/early 30's) want monogamy right away.

Past early 30's I think that butches desire to settle into a relationship more quickly than femmes the same age. My experience is that it is this age that femmes kind of "grow into their own". They become more confident, more empowered to be who they want to be, and less anxious about being in a relationship.

For some reason, I don't think butches move into this in the same sort of way. I don't know what that is about, but over my 15 years of being on b-f sites, this is something I have noticed. There is a larger population of older butches dating younger femmes than the reverse. I think that this often are the butches who want the quick monogamy factor (I am thinking maybe mid-later 30's butches who dating mid-late 20's femmes).

Admittedly, I haven't thought about this before, so this is a quick gut response.

I am curious to see if our gender identities (butch/femme) and our ages and the ages we date will play a factor in our perceptions and personal experiences.

I think it was be great if people were willing to state their gender identity/age when they post, as it will add fodder to the discussion.

I'll go first. I am a 44 year old butch.

Thanks for the topic, cupcake!



I'll go next...47 Year old Butch.

You brought up some interesting points.

Never thought about this much. I don't think that Butches want to jump into monogamy more than femmes as much as I think that cupcake was wanting to ask the questions from her perspective and experience, which is why this was addressed to the Butches. I could be wrong though.

I've always dated younger than I. Never thought about your point above where you talk about older butches dating younger femmes because of wanting quick monogamy. That hasn't held true for me in my earlier years or now. That's not the reason I like younger women. Besides, I've met plenty of "older" (meaning older than the Butch seeking the monogamy) femmes who want to have a quick monogamous relationship. So I think Butches who want monogamy right now can find it all over the age spectrum and do.

It will be interesting to see if anyone else chimes in because I'm not saying this is wrong. I just haven't had that experience before.

I've always wanted monogamy aside from my last relationship. Still do.
Age has a lot to do with it for me at this point in my life. Let's face it. I'm not the spring chicken I once was. I don't want to get into another relationship that won't work for me, her, or both of us. So I'm wiling to take my time dating and not just jumping into the "you are my gf now" monogamy after a few dates. Yes, I have been guilty of this in the past. Euphoria can be a bitch!

All I know is that I don't want to be one of those Butches who gets to a certain age and settles for someone. No one will be happy with that situation. So the scenario of this thread, where she wants to take time getting to know each other is fine by me, maybe even the best way to go about things at this point.

[The_Lady_Snow]

45 year old Leather Queer Femme Dom/Daddy

I too find that if I date outside of my kink circles or kink oriented people, I will tend to feel trapped, caged, and sufficated and I tend to feel this way with all gender types.. I have felt it while dating feminine folks, masculine folks.. People who aren't into the kink dynamic who I have tried to date have a tendency to get all like this is my property kinda like.. That kinda shit makes me run for the hills, it's not natural, it's scary, and it feels unhealthy to me... I have always felt this way from my 20's to now for some weird odd reason people do not know how to DATE, they want you (general) to commit to a ridiculous standard of monogamy that I don't even expect when IN A RELATIONSHIP.. I don't get it. I rarely if ever have this problem in my D/s-M/s dynamics, the boundaries there seem to be clear and no one likes to cross the lines and I find that interesting... Dating in itself for *me* has changed because of the whole you are MINE thing. Dating is when people seek and get to know more than one person for long periods of time, short periods of time.. It doesn't mean commitment, it doesn't mean you are property, it doesn't give anyone the right to expect monogamy or any other kind of commitment that keeps you (general) or them from seeking others. I don't know where dating evolved into forever.. That's just crazy to me and it's not really a butch.guy thing it's an every gender thang. I find it to be telling and it shows that there is A LOT of insecurity going on if this is happening when you are JUST simply just dating...


Add sex to the mix and people go nutso, next thing you know they are claiming shit like *that's my pussy* and not in that kinky, hot sexy, you're all up in some pussy and you are saying that to one another cause you are getting one another wet/hard.. Why sex changes things into some weird it's "Mine" Nemo seagull mentality I will never ever understand, and frankly want no part of!!!


ETA


Dapper in regards to the age question... I don't have an age restriction, until I do and here is what I have found from my own personal experience..

Cougar relationships (btw I hate that terminology because it deems women as some kind of dangeroud predator) are frowned upon by society and that leaks into our queer stuff.. I find that if I have a young stud at my side or even serving me then I am a predatory, innocent robbing flipper. If a peer be they Dom or not does it then they are Daddy, Lord and Savior...

Pretty fucking hypocritical if you ask me..

[candy_coated_bitch]

Oh, Snow--those are good points! And while I am more monogamously inclined sexually, I am not so much as a Domme when it comes to play. And I have found trying to to date outside of kink circles WAY more often creates that proprietary phenomenon where someone thinks that they have some sort of claim on me. Sometimes I think kink is easier because boundaries and expectations are more explicitly stated early on. That is my experience anyhow.

ETA: I have almost exclusively dated older butches/guys--sometimes a large age difference. I've never though about what this means as far as dating styles related to age...

Also--I have been the way I am in regards to my dating style since I started dating.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I'm a 45 year old femme. I live in western Canada, presently. Lower middle class up bringing. Back ground in monogamy, non-monogamy and poly. I generally only date butches (mostly those who are on some scale of genderqueer, including butches who are women *and* another gender)

I was brought up with people experimenting sexually with friends, and sometimes those freindships turned into relationships after a time. That was seen as "normal".

When I stopped dating men and bisexual women and started dating butches my whole world was turned upside down with how "conservative" it was, even in comparison to my "straight" relationships with men. I found lesbian communities and butch-femme dyke/queer communities tended to be far more conservative in terms of monogamy than when I was dating men and bisexuals. I had zero understanding of the rituals.
Everything moved much too fast for me but I tried quite hard to fit in. After all, that's what dykes do, right?

I find the butches (locally, like between here and seattle) who are between say 33 and 40 to be actually pretty relaxed in terms of not rushing into things and being ok with dating casually and having sex in a less ... Ownership... (Not in the fun kinky way)... Kind of way. They seem to get the pace a bit more. I tend not to date people fresh out of relationships because they tend not to have gotten a sense of themselves again yet and still act in that "relationship" kind of way almost right off the bat. Like their gears haven't changed yet.

Once I start dating above the age of 40, I find it splits into two camps - ones who are terrified of commitment cause they got married to a complete asshole for 8 years, and those who seem to need monogamy off the bat from the word go, and are really suspect that if I don't want monogamy for the word go, then it means I don't like them enough and that I'm shagging everything I come in contact with.

Obviously not everyone thinks that way, as masterfulbutch has explained. But the assumption that I'm a dirty game playing skank because I'm cautious and I like sex seems really unfair and frankly, kind of insulting.

Over the past three years, when I have actually really, really liked someone, I don't tend to seek out new people to date but I don't like making a commitment just yet either. So I don't offer monogamy. But I don't *know* if I really really like someone unless I get to know them.

I also *dont* like doing really romantic stuff when I'm getting to know someone. That feels far too emotionally familiar to me. Since I am also perfectly capable of fun and casual sex, I also like to make sure that we click in bed, without making promises (commitment aka monogamy).

I think this is where I may diverge from many. I don't do deeper BDSM edge play in casual getting to know you sex. I know that for many of the people I date that a) they have difficulty with sex and gender and therefore they need greater trust with sex, thus to them it's a bigger deal with greater intimacy attached to it and b) bdsm (and often coming to grips with being genderqueer/butch is also being introduced to them by someone who *finally* understand that hidden bit they had to hide from their last gf/wife who hated it) is brand new and *very* challenging to their ideas that have always secretly clashed with "don't hurt women" ethos, so they never acted on.

So I think that makes certain acts a far "risker" and "intimate" thing off the bat for them then it does for me. But then I'm also an open book and can easily talk about being an ex sexworker, have a past with sex, drugs and rock and roll (lol tongue in cheek), and I don't find that it requires much emotional "risk" to talk about these things, that are, for many, a big risk to them.

I respect their feelings around that, trust me. I usually date and partner with die hard introverts with brains the size of watermelons who over think everything lol but keep things very close to the chest, though they are sociable.

I do find certain types of introverts are actually more gentle and open with allowing me the space I need to emotionally get to the point of being ok with monogamy. Others, the ones I tend to get kind of freak out by with pressure and feel very choked/squeezed by are the ones who want to start all the romance from the first step. Perhaps that's part of the problem as well. They like discovery through romance, and I'm more of a discovery through humour and frontal lobe kind of person. Someone giving me a bouquet of flowers on the first date will freak me out, not endear me.

Maybe I'm just a shitty romantic, but I think I like to save the deeper feelings and really deeply romantic things for when I can trust someone... And that trust comes in layers and pieces. Being ok with someone taking me out for an ice cream and sitting in the park holding hands is a WAY WAY bigger deal to me than getting-to-know you sex. And I feel really uncomfortable about allowing someone in that far (ice cream and hand holding in the park) before I've had exploratory sex with them first.

Most butches - though not all, obviously or I've never of had a relationship in my life and I've had seven long term ones from the age of 14 until now - don't like this progression because it seems for them, sex is a bigger risk because of the dislike of being touched by people in the first place (the ones I date at least), the trouble they have with trusting people before having sex because of gender issues, and the thought that they *want* romance from the get go.

The femmes I have dated and the femmes I have had sex with and the femmes that openly hit on me are far more sexually forward (probably cause they've had to learn to be with being invisible and all) and far more "let's jump in the fart sack now and see what happens later" and seem to be less concerned about commitment and tend to have the attitude of "if we are the best match for each other, we will find that out naturally and it will be obvious as it goes along" they are more "happy if it turns into a relationship, and it's ok if it doesn't"

But then the femmes I have slept with and dated have all be very *very* extroverted so who knows if that's a consideration as well. May or may not be. They also tend to not have much gender issues with being the owner of a cock. As in, they have one in their head, not just strapping on.

They also have been "gentleman femmes" in the sense of being studs on the inside and feminine on the outside and not into butches as they think that would be sexually same-same.

Again, it's just been my observation. I'm quite happy to be wrong on my anecdotal observations and generalist ideas.

I also tend to meet far more "old school" butches and post modern femmes. So that might have something to do with it as well. The trans guys and transmasculines I've met seem to be a bit less monogamy from the get go as well and a bit more post modern about it all but that could be just that I meet those guys through my friends and kinky events than on line.

Why don't I meet butches that way? At those same events? Cause the butches at those events that are Dominants tend to be married to their primary partner with one or two play subs already and I'm not really up for being a third. I'd much rather just meet someone who'd like a primary partner or monogamus partner (I am fine with either. I know that bends some people's brains but thing about it as being kind of the same as being bisexual but in a poly/mono kind of way. I'm happy in either situation, both are fine to me) than to become another where there is no possibility for a primary relationship.

There was someone, Dapper, but as of last night that's been nixed. But this issue will come up again as it has many times in the past. I really wish there was some kind of way around this issue with people because many of them are really worth while folk that I think are really incredible. But if I feel like my independance is being squelched, my sex drive evaporates completely and I don't want someone touching me. I will actually shrink from it. I get turned off, horribly. If someone gives me my freedom and allows me to slowly make a choice then they become sexier and sexier. It shows me a kind of confidence I find horribly attractive and incredibly sexy.

Kind of like the difference between someone telling me they are intimidated about having sex with me (it happens. Too often) and someone saying "hey, I may not know wtf I'm doing the first few times I try something new, but goddamn after some practice, baby, I'm going to be the best shag you ever had"

Mreow.

But then maybe I just like cocky.

And I'm guessing my wanting to have what I see as freedom to slowly make a choice (as they are!!!) is seen as hurtful Game Playing, just like I can't help feeling my sex drive evaporate by feeling controlled by a stranger.

I dunno, there must be some kind of middle ground.

[DapperButch]

Hey, guys...thanks so much for responding...especially for adding your ages!

I am 37 years old and a Queer Femme.

However--butches/guys (and I suspect people in general, but that's my dating pool so that's what I'm commenting on) usually want to move way more quickly than I do.

I'll go next...47 Year old Butch.

Never thought about this much. I don't think that Butches want to jump into monogamy more than femmes

SNIP

as much as think that cupcake was wanting to ask the questions from her perspective and experience, which is why this was addressed to the Butches. I could be wrong though.

I agree with you. I didn't read cupcake's post as asking us to speak to who we saw as desiring monogamy more (or more quickly). I was responding to Snow's question. :)

SNIP

So I think Butches who want monogamy right now can find it all over the age spectrum and do.

Absolutely. I was talking about one or the other. If I had to choose. And then I added age group as to when I think it shifts.



45 year old Leather Queer Femme Dom/Daddy

I too find that if I date outside of my kink circles or kink oriented people, I will tend to feel trapped, caged, and sufficated and I tend to feel this way with all gender types..


ETA: I have almost exclusively dated older butches/guys--sometimes a large age difference. I've never though about what this means as far as dating styles related to age...

Also--I have been the way I am in regards to my dating style since I started dating.

Just as an aside, when I answered Snow's question, I was speaking to what I see the community doing as a whole.

My personal experience is not any femmes wanting to move more quickly than me. Maybe some, but not enough to say it would qualify as significant in a scientific study.

Since others are speaking to their personal experience about themselves, I thought I would throw that in.

And BIG ASS NOD on what Snow was saying about the butch/femme community replicating heterosexual standards of it being more acceptable of butches dating younger femmes rather than the opposite.

I like the addition of the kink community to this discussion.

ETA: I wanted to come back in here and say that maybe I shouldn't have cut apart people's posts. I hope my snips didn't remove the context you were trying to put your thoughts into, resulting in inaccuracy's of your main answer to the question. Please let me know if it did. Anyway, it was a poor choice, I was just trying to keep a running tally. I dunno. Sorry!

[imperfect_cupcake]

I can get on the same page with someone if I really like them and we are compatible and the chemistry and all that is there. I will get there if someone can be patient. I WANT the relationship, I just don't want it all at once up in my face after a few conversations, or one date, or having fucked once. It REALLY makes me panic. I don't like the pressure and I have trust issues so I like to take my time and really know what I am getting into. And I absolutely believe that takes TIME.

I wish I was better at being precise these days. I feel very rusty. Yes. That.

And yes, I also feel there is something between "totally casual sex" and "now we are in a committed relationship sex." I call it "getting to know you sex." But I find some people are quite insulted by that notion :( or see it as some kind of threat or that once their back is turned I'm going to shag two other people, compare and contrast shagging techniques on a score card in six different categories and they will wind up lacking in some way.

Which is kind of bizarre. But I guess people feel what they feel. That's really not the way I approach sex, ever. And I NEVER think of someone else when I'm in bed with someone, therefore it's impossible for me to actually compare two people. And that's a bit of a foreign concept to me anyway. I don't compare people. I don't sit and think about who I was with that was the best kisser ever. That seems kind of ... I dunno... What I did when I was first kissing boys and girls when I was 12.

So I dunno. Maybe there is some way for me to feel not pressured and for them to feel not insecure or threatened? And what would that look like?

[Kelt]

Right off the bat I want to say thanks for the novela, because this is the kind of thing that needs clarification and context. I also need to say that my experiences in the dating world are extremely limited and I don’t believe I’ve ever successfully navigated those waters, so anything I say here is pretty much a theoretical exercise.

I guess that for me dating would be more of a play the field, see what’s out there with no commitment to anything other than getting to know the other person. Courting would be more of a step towards something more significant and that’s where things like sexual boundaries and what’s in the future discussions happen and maybe decisions about whether or not to continue shape up.

IF the above is understood by both parties, huge IF there, then no, I don’t think it would be reasonable to dish out ultimatums, push for commitments, or extended negotiations would apply to the ‘dating’ phase. If the above is not understood it needs to be, because then expectations can be managed. (To be clear I don't think ultimatums are ever appropriate, but I'm answering the original question)

I don’t do, and have no desire to do, casual sex. Neither however would I require some full on commitment before a test drive. I am stone and (not speaking for any other stone) come pre-loaded with a box of boundaries when it comes to the physical. That requires trust above a two date level for me. I do understand that casual sex is pretty common for others and would just have to accept that casual means casual for them and not request limits on that while dating because that’s just dating right? Likely easier said than done, but that is my own stuff to deal with.

The “lesbian” community jump into commitment tendency that Dapper mentions has been a real problem for me and such that I’m pretty gun shy about even getting into anything at all. This may apply to other communities and I’m just unaware. I have ended up in inadvertent relationships when I was very young and had what I thought were friendships morph into something else without being aware of it until after the fact. (I blame myself for missing social cues). I have received an ultimatum very early in the courting stage and it stopped me in my tracks. I’ve been single for a couple of years and don’t see that changing soon.

I don’t know about trends on this front, I only know that I am a butch in no rush, and am at a stage in life where I will not be rushed. I am 53. I have been involved with femmes who were both a dozen years younger than me and a dozen years older than me. I think age differences matter more at the very young end of the scale (20’s) than later.

Sleepybutch has some really good points and if I were ‘in the pool’ so to speak would also spend time figuring out more of this up front.

Mulling all of this over I see some good perspectives here to think about. Might be back, will definitely keep reading.

Thanks for a good thread idea Cupcake!

ETA: Since writing this other posts have come up, so I'll likely be back.

[SleepyButch]

So I dunno. Maybe there is some way for me to feel not pressured and for them to feel not insecure or threatened? And what would that look like?

I think the only thing you can do is communicate communicate communicate. I am sure you do this. There are some that do not.

If I know what I'm getting in right away, then I can make up my mind if I want to participate or not.

I think you already kind of answered your own question or how it work if it were you and I dating.

You said this up above:

"Thing is with monogamy and sex, I tend not to have multiple sex partners, it's very very rare I do. However, I don't like making the commitment of promising not to, before I know the person. It doesn't mean I'm going to go sleep with three other people."

If I knew that this, I don't think I'd be threatened or insecure. I guess it depends on how much you want to share about this with someone new.

ETA if someone doesn't accept you for wanting or not wanting something, are they really worth your time in the long run?

[imperfect_cupcake]

If I knew that this, I don't think I'd be threatened or insecure. I guess it depends on how much you want to share about this with someone new.

Hmn. Tricky. I don't know. The last time I dated someone I quite liked neither of us was asking for monogamy off the bat because we were both the same about it. I told her on the first date that I didn't mind who she dated or slept with and she didn't have to tell me about it unless she wanted to talk to me as a friend about it (which she did. She had an issue and a bad date and wanted to tell me and I listened and we joked. Which actually made me feel closer and safer with her).

After we had been dating a while, we both decided we would like to know if the other person was sleeping with anyone else. She had never done this before and was nervous about it so I said "let's role play it! You tell me and I'll be me!"
We laughed and joked our way through the role play and she felt much better about it.

But about four months along she wanted to meet someone "for sex or for a date, date. Like proper romantic date?"
"Proper romantic date"
And I knew at that point we were at different stages and wanted different things, for now. So I bowed out. And it busted me to do it. If she had been meeting someone for a fun casual sex date, I would have felt jealous but nothing I couldn't deal with. Her wanting to meet someone to romance, made me scared and I knew I couldn't do it.
She was deeply upset with me breaking things off and didn't understand. I said that we were at different points and I wouldn't be able to handle it and it would affect us both. But she was welcome to come back at anytime in the future should she choose because I still thought she was the bees knees.
No, apparently, for her, if you ring the bell, it's done.

Dating is hard. I'm not really a big fan of it.

So the possibility of me sleeping with someone would be there. Just highly unlikely. And if I *had* slept with someone while I was dating her, it would have been very casual and of little consequence to how I felt about her or what we were doing. But if someone fell in my lap and said "hey! Just passing through!" I might have. I was dating, and if I'm dating, I am not in a couple. I'm not ready to answer to someone just yet, even though I really, really like them. Just like I don't want to have to explain why I'm going on a holiday with friends if I'm dating someone, or why I didn't call last night. They don't have to check with me to go bowling with mates and if they don't call me at 10pm for a chat (say it's something we might often do) they don't have to text and apologise.

I think the word "expectations" is something I like to keep on very close to nil, or quite low when dating.

Perhaps that's key to it?

[SleepyButch]

Hmn. Tricky. I don't know. The last time I dated someone I quite liked neither of us was asking for monogamy off the bat because we were both the same about it. I told her on the first date that I didn't mind who she dated or slept with and she didn't have to tell me about it unless she wanted to talk to me as a friend about it (which she did. She had an issue and a bad date and wanted to tell me and I listened and we joked. Which actually made me feel closers to her).

After we had been dating a while, we both decided we would like to know if the other person was sleeping with anyone else. She had never done this before and was nervous about it so I said "let's role play it! You tell me and I'll be me!"
We laughed and joked our way through the role play and she felt much better about it.

But about four months along she wanted to meet someone "for sex or for a date, date. Like proper romantic date"
"Proper romantic date"
And I knew at that point we were at different stages and wanted different things, for now. So I bowed out. And it busted me to do it. If she had been meeting someone for a fun casual sex date, I would have felt jealous but nothing I couldn't deal with. Her wanting to meet someone to romance, made me scared and I knew I couldn't do it.
She was deeply upset with me breaking things off and didn't understand. I said that we were at different points and I wouldn't be able to handle it and it would affect us both. But she was welcome to come back at anytime in the future should she choose because I still thought she was the bees knees.
No, apparently, for her, if you ring the bell, it's done.

Dating is hard. I'm not really a big fan of it.

So the possibility of me sleeping with someone would be there. Just highly unlikely. And if I *had* slept with someone while I was dating her, it would have been very casual and of little consequence to how I felt about her or what we were doing. But if someone fell in my lap and said "hey! Just passing through!" I might have. I was dating, and if I'm dating, I am not in a couple. I'm not ready to answer to someone just yet, even though I really, really like them. Just like I don't want to have to explain why I'm going on a holiday with friends if I'm dating someone, or why I didn't call last night. They don't have to check with me to go bowling with mates and if they don't call me at 10pm for a chat (say it's something we might often do) they don't have to text and apologise.

I think the word "expectations" is something I like to keep on very close to nil, or quite low when dating.

Perhaps that's key to it?

I'm curious. I wonder how she would have reacted had you told her you were going on a "romantic date" with someone else? I know you said you don't like the romance up front so whatever the equivalent of that would be for you. We tend to have a totally different reaction when things are happening to us instead of doing them ourselves.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Well, by the four month mark we had done what we both had considered a bit of romance. She had taken me to the science museum and a pic nic, held hands with me in the marina, I let her take the reins with costs (I love it but it's so hard for me to do), I took her to me little secret favourite Ethiopian restaurant and wore her favourite dress for her, and we went to the 217 flavour Italian ice cream parlour and then played goofy games in the park.
She was planning to have me to her house for the first time and to make me steak dinner (her thing) and I wanted her to take me on the boat.

So we had started doing what I consider romantic things, as did she. There are quite a few other things I did for her but those are her private, romantic things and I don't want to blather them.

So when I asked her what her reaction would be the other way, she told me she would have struggled quite hard with it if I had and she said she was not sure herself how she would deal. But she was not "there" where she wanted to not have the option herself, so she would just have dealt with it the best she could have and talked it out with me till she felt ok.

I wish, very much, I could have done that. But I think I was just a bit further too past it to agree. The thought that I could very realistically be replaced because that girl lived in the same town as her and thus far easier to take out for brunch, far easier to take to the zoo and far easier to have her out for drinks every Friday night, I felt unhinged by. I told her that and she agreed. It was possible. And she would feel very uncomfortable if I did the same.

It's just she was willing to talk through it, and I wasn't. I don't know if that is a short coming of mine or good for knowing my limits.

[Shystonefem]

I am femme and you a not want my opinion but...

I don't jump into see and I don't like casual sex. I won't bring up the discussion of exclusiveness an
but I will respond if asked.

I don't date younger butches, I date butches close to my age or a bit older.

I did have a butch think that we were "exclusive". It was awkward. She didn't have my phone number or my email or my address... but she felt like we were a couple.

I don't think it is a butch thing or a femme thing, I think it is a person thing.

I probably won't date anyone if I am interested in someone but if you assume we are exclusive without talking about it, we have a problem.

I guess what I am saying is.... don't expect anything from me unless you discuss it with me. It is when you assume that we have a problem.

I am honest and I am fiercely loyal but, before you get that loyalty - you have to ask first.

[Kelt]

Cupcake, I’m sorry that worked out that way for you. I think you bring up a really good point though and it’s something I’ve been learning later in life. Not all femmes dig romance. :brightbulb: :doh:

This is something that was trained into me from my very beginning. Every movie, show, book on etiquette, OS mentorship, you name it; it was drilled into me as a default. That if I just showed up with a bunch of flowers, hold your hand and buy you ice cream in the park ... That I’d be doing something right and have a crack at screwing up something else.

I’ve learned that romance is a spectrum just like everything else and that part of learning about someone new is to figure out this bit too. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only older butch that has that wired up wrong. I still love to do the OS rituals, but I can now see that not all will appreciate it and it’s not personal, just a different view.

[SleepyButch]

Cupcake, I’m sorry that worked out that way for you. I think you bring up a really good point though and it’s something I’ve been learning later in life. Not all femmes dig romance. :brightbulb: :doh:

This is something that was trained into me from my very beginning. Every movie, show, book on etiquette, OS mentorship, you name it; it was drilled into me as a default. That if I just showed up with a bunch of flowers, hold your hand and buy you ice cream in the park ... That I’d be doing something right and have a crack at screwing up something else.

I’ve learned that romance is a spectrum just like everything else and that part of learning about someone new is to figure out this bit too. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only older butch that has that wired up wrong. I still love to do the OS rituals, but I can now see that not all will appreciate it and it’s not personal, just a different view.

Hard to believe that not everyone loves romance right? I now make it a point to ask if she likes romance because it's just something I do a lot without thinking about it. I think if someone doesn't want romance, they are not for me. It's hard to retrain yourself into not doing things especially when I get a lot of pleasure from being romantic.

Looking at it from cupcake's point of view from her words on this thread, I think that sometimes right away, things can get hidden behind the blanket of romance, meaning you can get caught up in it all and maybe not really see what is in front of you. So not that you can't be romantic but save the romance for later when you are trusting each other more and know each other better?

Who knows. All I really do know is that getting to know me is getting to know my romantic side and it tends to come out right away.

[Shystonefem]

Hard to believe that not everyone loves romance right? I now make it a point to ask if she likes romance because it's just something I do a lot without thinking about it. I think if someone doesn't want romance, they are not for me. It's hard to retrain yourself into not doing things especially when I get a lot of pleasure from being romantic.

Looking at it from cupcake's point of view from her words on this thread, I think that sometimes right away, things can get hidden behind the blanket of romance, meaning you can get caught up in it all and maybe not really see what is in front of you. So not that you can't be romantic but save the romance for later when you are trusting each other more and know each other better?

Who knows. All I really do know is that getting to know me is getting to know my romantic side and it tends to come out right away.


But the romance has to come from the right place. I have am ex that spent hundreds of dollars on flowers every single week, left gifts at my housr, would call stores that she knew I would be at and bought stuff fore in advance....... BUT.... she turned out to be a psycho. Sometimes people try too hard so that their "other" side doesn't show....... right away.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Oh I do like romance, kelt. But not at first. I think it's too personal and intimate from someone I don't know. It scares me. It's like someone breathing in my face and asking all about my feeeeeeelings if I don't know them.

I actually am old fashioned once I am in a relationship. In ways that are very... Particular.

However, I'm just a very emotionally reserved person when it comes to deeper feelings and certain intimacies. I can verbally spill my guts about who I am, all my history and I'm not a private person about details of my life, but you want to know my deeper feelings?

Get to know me first. Be my friend. Show me you can be my friend before you can be my lover.

This gives me confidence that if something needs discussing, or something happens, you can put certain romantic feelings aside and treat me like a cherished friend first. To me, that is the most trusted thing anyone can do for me. And I often put my feelings of jealousy, ego, hurt, pissy snit aside to speak to a partner as a *friend* first, once I trust them.

I have friendships that have lasted for 32 years. None of my relationships have. So Given that my friendships are the most valuable thing I know of, when a partner that treats me like a friend first, then they have my trust. Once I know that they see me as a valuable friend and person first, *then* I like all the romance. Because then I know them well enough for that level of intimacy.

But I can also find a supermarket sandwich in a carpark the rain very romantic if I'm with the right person. I can think of a very romantic afternoon spent laughing in her car with tesco tuna fish sandwiches, sitting in a car park with the rain leaking in the back. There doesn't need to be flowers and chocolates in that memory. It still makes me smile.

I'm not really a flowers and chocolate girl romance girl. I'm a science museum and divey pub romance girl. Everyone has different ideas about what romance is. :)

Mine just happens to be more geek than traditional princess.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Cupcake, I’m sorry that worked out that way for you. I think you bring up a really good point though and it’s something I’ve been learning later in life. Not all femmes dig romance. :brightbulb: :doh:

This is something that was trained into me from my very beginning. Every movie, show, book on etiquette, OS mentorship, you name it; it was drilled into me as a default. That if I just showed up with a bunch of flowers, hold your hand and buy you ice cream in the park ... That I’d be doing something right and have a crack at screwing up something else.

I’ve learned that romance is a spectrum just like everything else and that part of learning about someone new is to figure out this bit too. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only older butch that has that wired up wrong. I still love to do the OS rituals, but I can now see that not all will appreciate it and it’s not personal, just a different view.

Romantic gestures are nice, and a way to show appreciation, love, etc.. It's when those gestures or "love tasks" become a way to want to get all weird and proprietary.. Also, (sometimes and this is where I think folks get all wigged out) Femmes want to be the one's leading the romance or want to be able to express romantic gestures which are for some reason only assigned to butch/masculine/Top/Boss people....

Also, like you stated someone's view of romance is hearts and flowers, where as for others it can be museums and fuck fests.... When things don't stay "binary" is when I feel that people get all oogy and weird, and then somehow someone ends up being uncomfortable...


I am hoping I can communicate what I am muddling in my mind, it's been a while since I have had to type out my thoughts...

[Ginger]

I'm trying to think about what I consider "romance."

I think the romantic gestures that really get to me are quiet and thoughtful, not big and splashy.

When I was in college, on a very cold night, my lover got out of bed and put these big fuzzy red socks on my feet. I was swooning.

[SleepyButch]

But the romance has to come from the right place. I have am ex that spent hundreds of dollars on flowers every single week, left gifts at my housr, would call stores that she knew I would be at and bought stuff fore in advance....... BUT.... she turned out to be a psycho. Sometimes people try too hard so that their "other" side doesn't show....... right away.

Of course it has to come from the right place. I can tell you romance isn't about buying people things all the time. Isn't that more of trying to buy someone's affection? That would be a red flag for me right away I think but that's just me. I would rather someone be creative than buy me things all the time. Yes, I like to be romanced as well.

It's up to the two people involved to take the time to get to know each other. No one's other side is going to show right away, which is what I think one of the points of this thread is. Hell, sometimes someone's true side doesn't show up for a long time!

[Shystonefem]

Of course it has to come from the right place. I can tell you romance isn't about buying people things all the time. Isn't that more of trying to buy someone's affection? That would be a red flag for me right away I think but that's just me. I would rather someone be creative than buy me things all the time. Yes, I like to be romanced as well.

It's up to the two people involved to take the time to get to know each other. No one's other side is going to show right away, which is what I think one of the points of this thread is. Hell, sometimes someone's true side doesn't show up for a long time!

I completely agree with you. I was stupid. I know that now.

[Shystonefem]

I'm trying to think about what I consider "romance."

I think the romantic gestures that really get to me are quiet and thoughtful, not big and splashy.

When I was in college, on a very cold night, my lover got out of bed and put these big fuzzy red socks on my feet. I was swooning.


Romantic gestures is not about stuff. It is about thinking about what the other person needs/wants and getting it done.

[SleepyButch]

I completely agree with you. I was stupid. I know that now.

Please don't say that you were stupid. It's easy to get caught up in the moments like you described. A lot of crave attention and it comes in many forms. Some people express love differently. As I mentioned in an earlier post euphoria can be a bitch! We all make mistakes. It's what we do with them after we realized that we made them that counts.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Romance to me: documentary films with home made pizza. Having them cook me a dinner they like to cook for themselves. Going to the store for me. Taking me to a museum. Sitting in bed on a Sunday and drinking tea and playing cards and laughing and being sarcastic. Buying me a kinder egg. Having a pic nic at my local park and looking at magazines together. Making something stupid and crafty together and making jokes. Swapping goofy pictures of each other grafted into things. Making each other e-books with funny stories and pictures. Going on a drive to find abandoned barns or factories and walk through them. Buying me my favourite gin and strawberries and playing a rediculous board game. Having them climb a tree for me to get me a flower. Showing me their favourite books or journals and telling me why. Talking to me for hours, late at night. :)

I think understanding that people have different ideas about what is intimate and what is romantic (like the five love languages test, for example) is a good thing. I like people who like touch and quality time, because I'm good at giving that. I love getting acts of service the most. So fixing my bike will be seen as far more swoony and romantic than a gift or a love poem.

But that's also what dating is for, right? Finding these things out to see if you are suited for a relationship!

Kinda why I like taking things slow in the beginning, to find these things out....!

[princessbelle]

I've been following this thread and trying hard to understand exactly what to post about that is related to the core subject. It is very interesting and the words in here are so good to hear. I am yearning for deep discussions and i thank the OP for bringing light to a deep subject.

I guess though i'm having a blond moment and not exactly sure what to post about, however i want to be a part of this discussion so i'm gonna give it a try...

Regarding relationships and who seems to fall in the category of monogamy faster, butch vs. femme; I find it totally depends on the individual and i have not actually seen a trend, in my life anyway.

Sometimes, it was me that jumped in too fast and sometimes it was a partner that seemed to push. The main point i would like to make is this....everyone has different ideas of what a "relationship" or "dating" should be. When i meet someone new and we date, to me that it is just dating. Dating is dating. Discussion can be made at some point on the monogamy part. This is the time we try each other out, the mental connection, culturally, spiritually, physically. Even if i am monogamous, it's not set in stone i will be there long term, forever type stuff. Again, this is *my* definition of dating.

This is where i feel at least in some of my past relationships, communicated or not, it has been a real problem. Some will see monogamous dating is "forever and a day" some won't. I see it just as dating and that's it. Thankfully, a few of my exes agreed with that and we continue to be friends, no matter which of us broke it off. But, i've found that even if you discuss this at the beginning, there are problems later if the other person does not share your views 100%. You can't know for sure you want to spend the rest of your life with someone until you've known them a long time and been around them a lot. That's how i feel anyway.

Bottom line for me Communication is the key. Discussing what dating means specifically, monogamously or not, deeply with each party involved will make it easier in the end, if there is one.

[Martina]

I hate romance. Always have. It leaves me flat, and then I feel guilty. I endure romantic gestures, I guess. I do like pizza and documentary films though.

I read this thread and realized how much I do not want a relationship at this point in my life. I wonder if I ever will again.

I am truly grateful for the friends and beloved ex's in my life who fit me like an old glove. If I didn't have them, I'd be alone. I seriously could not go through all that right now. I love being single. I love home-ownership (new to me). I love the freedom of my own time and my own space.

[imperfect_cupcake]

To answer a question

A kinder egg is a chocolate egg with a toy inside that has to be built. I LOVE them!!
I forgot that the U.S. Banned them. So many of you won't know what one is.

http://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/hires/04052012_0405_hires2.jpg

[imperfect_cupcake]

Princess belle - it was originally thread to ask about how butches deal with dating differences in the beginning of things. Some things can seem on the surface as insurmountable, but I know from experience that if I'm actually really interested in getting to know someone, I'm willing to *try* to work around some things if I can. I think some people are worth the effort.

It's turned into ask everyone how they deal with differences in dating at the beginning. Which is great.

Dapper had a hypothesis. Not sure how that's working out, but yet to be seen.

So far the differences that can throw people are:

When to be monogamous
When to be romantic
What is romantic
How/when to have discussions about the above
What does dating mean

[Shystonefem]

Please don't say that you were stupid. It's easy to get caught up in the moments like you described. A lot of crave attention and it comes in many forms. Some people express love differently. As I mentioned in an earlier post euphoria can be a bitch! We all make mistakes. It's what we do with them after we realized that we made them that counts.

No, I was an idiot. I really believed, at the time, that she just wanted me that much. She wanted the idea of me and never really wanted "me". It wasn't euphoria, I just thought that she really loved me. And, when you get into something like that, the "obsession" doesn't go away easil tty. I am still getting calls, emails, etc....

[Kelt]

I think the last few posts pretty much sum up what I was getting at with romance. It's a spectrum from zero to sixty.

If I showed up with flowers I'd...

1. scare off Cupcake

2. piss off Martina

3. get a date with Sleepy :blink:

When what I'd really be meaning is; I'm showing interest and wanting to make a good impression. (NOT asking for sex or proposing marriage though)

If I'm head over heels I'll fix your car, because like the socks in the night, it's how I show genuine caring.

Princessbelle is right that communication is key because there are so many ways to get things wrong; or right but you just don't know it.

[princessbelle]

Princess belle - it was originally thread to ask about how butches deal with dating differences in the beginning of things. Some things can seem on the surface as insurmountable, but I know from experience that if I'm actually really interested in getting to know someone, I'm willing to *try* to work around some things if I can. I think some people are worth the effort.

It's turned into ask everyone how they deal with differences in dating at the beginning. Which is great.

Dapper had a hypothesis. Not sure how that's working out, but yet to be seen.

So far the differences that can throw people are:

When to be monogamous
When to be romantic
What is romantic
How/when to have discussions about the above
What does dating mean

Thank you for the clarification. I hope i was in line with my post.

And a note on the romantic.....i will NEVER get enough of that, personally. It's what ties my shoelaces into knots (in a good way). And, yeah i believe dating means different things to different people. Being online it's hard to start that walk and be in total agreement.

All of it boils down to communication, communication, communication.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Fair enough, kelt - I personally would like someone to show interest by talking to me, telling me stories from their life and making me laugh. And showing interest in my stories. Flowers, to me, on a first date... Trying too hard? Making a formal statement that kind of makes me uncomfortable? I would like to think that before the first date we've had a couple pre-dates (just going for coffee or a beer and nachos) and talking. And perhaps we've had a couple phone calls and email exchanges before a first date. By then, I would like to think, the person has some idea that

A) I'm quite informal and too much formality makes me uncomfortable and stiff and I kind of feel like I'm playing a role rather than being a person. I'd like to think that flowers aren't nessecary to impress me or show interest, and taking me to a fancy restaurant where I can't laugh loud or show you pictures of hilarious dildos on my phone will make me feel out of place.

B) that you feel comfortable taking me to a pub with a good burger, a quiet corner and we talk and laugh for a few hours. Maybe you have bought me a little leggo kit instead of flowers and we can build it at the table. Perhaps we change to go to a different late pub after the dinner and make fun of people's shoes. I'm dressed up nicely.

I like a LOT of conversation and sharing of opinions and stories, so generally people have a pretty good idea of a first date, or they allow me to choose the place. Which I rather like. The second date they usually give me an idea or choice of a couple of things and I pick one. Again it will be informal and a place we can talk. I'm all about the talking. That way we can find out a lot about these things.

I generally don't do "activities" together as in going to the theatre or something until after we've had sex at least once.

But I'll have told someone that too. I come with very open and very straight forwardly stated instructions and I have an excellent customer service centre that fields enquires in great detail. I also come with a sheet of colourful diagrams for assembly.

[MsTinkerbelly]

53 year old married femme

I still remember what it feels like to date, even though we have been together since 2002, because i left my kasey back in 2005 for around a year and dated. I was as someone mentioned, still wired for monogamy and jumped from one "committed relationship" to another (approx 3) during that period of 1 year.

I was not ready to be monogamous again, and had i REALLY dated as had been my practice before i married, i probably would not have jumped back into my marriage. So, possibly that covers some butches and femmes alike, who date too quickly once broken up from long-term relationships? Maybe for some it is a desperate attempt to return to "normal"? To be part of an us?

Before i met kasey i had been out of my hetro-sexual marriage for 5 years, and dated several people at a time, getting to know them and seeing if we were compatible. Sometimes sex, sometimes not...but nothing committed unless we both felt ourselves moving in that direction.

I do know one thing after all of these years...if i am ever single again, i will take some me time first, before i ever consider dating anyone. I would want to do it whole, and ready to be a great partner someday.

I hope that makes sense?

[CherylNYC]

I think the last few posts pretty much sum up what I was getting at with romance. It's a spectrum from zero to sixty.

If I showed up with flowers I'd...

1. scare off Cupcake

2. piss off Martina

3. get a date with Sleepy :blink:

When what I'd really be meaning is; I'm showing interest and wanting to make a good impression. (NOT asking for sex or proposing marriage though)

If I'm head over heels I'll fix your car, because like the socks in the night, it's how I show genuine caring.

Princessbelle is right that communication is key because there are so many ways to get things wrong; or right but you just don't know it.

Yeah, I'm not big on romance, either. It makes me itchy. When someone brings flowers, especially early in the dating relationship, I sometimes wonder if they're trying to buy me. If I don't wonder about that, I end up feeling nervous that they're too invested too quickly. It's easy to scare me off.

[SleepyButch]

Fair enough, kelt - I personally would like someone to show interest by talking to me, telling me stories from their life and making me laugh. And showing interest in my stories. Flowers, to me, on a first date... Trying too hard? Making a formal statement that kind of makes me uncomfortable? I would like to think that before the first date we've had a couple pre-dates (just going for coffee or a beer and nachos) and talking. And perhaps we've had a couple phone calls and email exchanges before a first date. By then, I would like to think, the person has some idea that

A) I'm quite informal and too much formality makes me uncomfortable and stiff and I kind of feel like I'm playing a role rather than being a person. I'd like to think that flowers aren't nessecary to impress me or show interest, and taking me to a fancy restaurant where I can't laugh loud or show you pictures of hilarious dildos on my phone will make me feel out of place.

B) that you feel comfortable taking me to a pub with a good burger, a quiet corner and we talk and laugh for a few hours. Maybe you have bought me a little leggo kit instead of flowers and we can build it at the table. Perhaps we change to go to a different late pub after the dinner and make fun of people's shoes. I'm dressed up nicely.

I like a LOT of conversation and sharing of opinions and stories, so generally people have a pretty good idea of a first date, or they allow me to choose the place. Which I rather like. The second date they usually give me an idea or choice of a couple of things and I pick one. Again it will be informal and a place we can talk. I'm all about the talking. That way we can find out a lot about these things.

I generally don't do "activities" together as in going to the theatre or something until after we've had sex at least once.

But I'll have told someone that too. I come with very open and very straight forwardly stated instructions and I have an excellent customer service centre that fields enquires in great detail. I also come with a sheet of colourful diagrams for assembly.

I love the Legos idea! That's a great way to be silly and get to know each other. I agree that it's important to talk before going on a first date especially if I'm picking the place we go. Wouldn't want to bring her to a seafood restaurant if she hates seafood or bring her chocolate if she is allergic.

I'm curious about the no "activities" until after sex? What's that about if you don't mind sharing? Is that a more formal date?

[homoe]

I was raised with manners and common sense. I mean that's just rude to let a door slam in someone's face so I will extent an open door or hold one open to let someone pass through , help on with coats, help or pull out a chair for someone to get into, stuff like that. After reading these posts, I see that might offend some folks?

[C0LLETTE]

Perhaps "romance" and "romantic gestures" are a bit like the rapidly dying arts of giving and receiving compliments, increasingly fraught with awkwardness and suspicion. Personally, I'd rather just gratefully enjoy the moment and (maybe) worry about what you really had in mind, later.

[Gemme]

So, it comes down to how close the person is to what I am looking for and if they are going in the same direction as me.


I too find that if I date outside of my kink circles or kink oriented people, I will tend to feel trapped, caged, and sufficated and I tend to feel this way with all gender types.. I have felt it while dating feminine folks, masculine folks.. People who aren't into the kink dynamic who I have tried to date have a tendency to get all like this is my property kinda like.. That kinda shit makes me run for the hills, it's not natural, it's scary, and it feels unhealthy to me...

*snip*

Why sex changes things into some weird it's "Mine" Nemo seagull mentality I will never ever understand, and frankly want no part of!!!


Sometimes, it was me that jumped in too fast and sometimes it was a partner that seemed to push. The main point i would like to make is this....everyone has different ideas of what a "relationship" or "dating" should be. When i meet someone new and we date, to me that it is just dating. Dating is dating. Discussion can be made at some point on the monogamy part. This is the time we try each other out, the mental connection, culturally, spiritually, physically. Even if i am monogamous, it's not set in stone i will be there long term, forever type stuff. Again, this is *my* definition of dating.

This is where i feel at least in some of my past relationships, communicated or not, it has been a real problem. Some will see monogamous dating is "forever and a day" some won't. I see it just as dating and that's it. Thankfully, a few of my exes agreed with that and we continue to be friends, no matter which of us broke it off. But, i've found that even if you discuss this at the beginning, there are problems later if the other person does not share your views 100%. You can't know for sure you want to spend the rest of your life with someone until you've known them a long time and been around them a lot. That's how i feel anyway.

Bottom line for me Communication is the key. Discussing what dating means specifically, monogamously or not, deeply with each party involved will make it easier in the end, if there is one.




So far the differences that can throw people are:

When to be monogamous
When to be romantic
What is romantic
How/when to have discussions about the above
What does dating mean

Also, Kelt said:

If I showed up with flowers I'd...

1. scare off Cupcake

2. piss off Martina

3. get a date with Sleepy

...which cracked me up.

All of these posts lend to my philosophy in some way.

For me, it's archery. You shoot your arrow and I shoot my arrow and sometimes they wind up in the same circle and sometimes they wind up on separate targets altogether.

Pinkie Pie is correct: communication is key. Not everything can be worked out. Sometimes it just isn't going to happen. But most things can be worked out with time and patience and open and honest communication.

I am a 40 year old femme. I am stone. I am a girl. I am multi-faceted and each part of me offers a new angle to the same perspective.

I've dabbled in poly and it's not for me. I was the one brought in and I was the one that developed a weird jealous attachment thing so I was the one to withdraw myself from the relationship. I felt that Nemo "Mine!" thing and it was inappropriate given the situation. It was best for all involved for me to step back and I learned a very important lesson. It's also part of why I tread carefully when it comes to trusting someone when they are dating others.

I personally have an abundance of trust issues and even though I know my intentions when I say I want to have free reign without guilt when dating others I don't what a potential partner's intentions might be. Again, this is where time and patience and communication would come into play.

I'm somewhere between the kiddie pool and the riptide....maybe around the 4 ft mark in a standard backyard pool....when it comes to kink but I also require someone who at least has an interest in it and a base knowledge of it. When partnered with someone who don't have either, I feel small and like I am being emotionally restricted. I will not tolerate emotional suffocation, even if it's unintentional.

So, to get back to the core topic....I consider dating to be when people go on dates. Dating does not automatically mean monogamy. I do not expect someone I just started dating to be monogamous with me. It soothes my ego and some health concerns but it's not expected.

I prefer the option of us being free to date others until we.....as a unit....decide to become monogamous. There are many factors that would come into play before that could/would happen. There are levels of trust that must be reached and there are triggers/issues/et cetera that must be brought out of the shadows and dusted off.

At this point in my life, I would like to have someone important. Someone to call when I bump my head. Someone to put on the forms as an emergency contact.

BUT

I cannot live with someone. Nope. Not going to happen. Like cupcake, I'd be fine with being with someone who lives in the same building....preferably on a different floor and not directly above or below me....or maybe on each side of a duplex. I am crazy rabid possessive of my space. I've continually had my personal space torn up/dispersed/sold/emptied/moved/etc ALL OF MY LIFE. Those issues are far too deep-seated to shrink wrap now and are NOT going to change.

I think that I would enjoy drawing out the process more now. Be it courting or dating or romancing or separately cohabitating, I am not in the rush that I was before. I've taken time for myself and feel that I've pulled myself farther from the serial monogamist wormhole that I've found myself sucked into time after time.

Speaking of romance and old school type behaviors, it's not so bad. Not when it's done on the subtle side of things or even nonchalantly and naturally. When it's done with a flourish, as in "look what I just did for YOU!", it's bullshit and it smells like it. I'm majorly put off with most grand gestures.

I'm all about the details. Tell me all of your stories. The stupid, the adorkable, the sad and forlorn....everything. I want it all.

The Mother Monster said it best:

I want your ugly
I want your disease
I want your everything
As long as it's free
I want your love
Love, love, love I want your love

I want to discuss everything that would affect the outcome of the relationship fairly soon. The boundaries...sexual, physical, emotional...the triggers....the shadow issues. The likes/dislikes....what does your day off look like....what is your typical energy level....what makes you tick....what ticks you off....et cetera.

The more I know about you, the safer I can feel around you. The safer I feel, the more open I can be. The more open I am, the more trust you earn. The more trust you earn, the more vulnerable I am. It's a frightening thing to expose yourself and all of your quirks to one another.

Actually, at this moment, semi-casual sex doesn't sound so bad.

Oy.

:blink:

[SleepyButch]

Also, Kelt said:

If I showed up with flowers I'd...

1. scare off Cupcake

2. piss off Martina

3. get a date with Sleepy


:blink:[/B]


I am still laughing about this as if it were that easy...

[imperfect_cupcake]

I was raised with manners and common sense. I mean that's just rude to let a door slam in someone's face so I will extent an open door or hold one open to let someone pass through , help on with coats, help or pull out a chair for someone to get into, stuff like that. After reading these posts, I see that might offend some folks?


For me, nope wouldn't offend me. I like that. I don't like someone dressed in a suit, with flowers, calling me ma'am, taking me to a really expensive place, and being really formal type old school.

Like I personally have said, I am old fashioned. But I am also not formal. I feel really awkward putting the things I feel old fashioned about on a board because to me the are quiet, personal things between me and one other person. But carrying my bags is lovely, without making a fuss about it, opening my door, helping me with a coat, paying for a dinner or a night out... I don't really won't to say too much more. That's kind of between me and the other person and it feels really private.

I think things that feel ... They are doing it because I'm a femme, rather than because I'm me and special, feels very... Insert cardboard cut of of femme and insert formula ritual thing here... I'd prefer we get a hang of each other and have personal things for us. Not because I'm a femme and that's what you do for femmes. It feels really ... Insert tab a into slot b show romance in way you show femmes romance. I just feels overly intimate in a fake way. Perhaps more like what gemme is talking about.

Kind of like when servers in a restaurant get cloy (Overly Ingratiating or sentimental) ? I hate an excess of sentiment upfront. It makes me really uncomfortable. I guess I like humour and playfulness and understatement.

Putting it on paper, typing into a post looks hopelessly picky. But in reality it's not. Ive actually been told I'm really easy to talk to and extremely easy company - when someone isn't trying hard to impress me and listens to me instead. And me them.

[homoe]

I want to expand on the compliment factor because I'm a very curious person in general. Are femmes suspicious when a butch gives them compliment? I mean do you think a butch has an ultra motive if they do or are you more inclined to just accept the compliment at face value? The way I've always looked upon compliments are they cost nothing to give, and can make a person's whole day!

[imperfect_cupcake]

I'm curious about the no "activities" until after sex? What's that about if you don't mind sharing? Is that a more formal date?

Yeah, I guess so. Maybe I'm just ass backwards? I kind of prefer

Informal, friendly, relaxed hanging out > informal, dating that doesn't cost much > sex, hanging out informally, learning more > sex sex and more sex > romantic stuff and activities > more sex > etc etc etc maybe meeting some friends of each others > decision for exclusivity and thus a relationship to see how it works > meeting parents and taking a vacation together > hey this really works, I even cleaned out a drawer for you to put some socks in :) and feel free to keep some shirts here.

That's kinda how it goes in my universe.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I want to expand on the compliment factor because I'm a very curious person in general. Are femmes suspicious when a butch gives them compliment? I mean do you think a butch has an ultra motive if they do or are you more inclined to just accept the compliment at face value? The way I've always looked upon compliments are they cost nothing to give, and can make a person whole day!

It depends on your "love language" thing. Right? I get very uncomfortable with compliments given certain ways. But then I'm not a "words of affirmation" type.

Like for instance, I'm going to be far more endeared and swoony over someone saying "hey gimpy, get your hot arse in the car so I can drive you home, you are giving me a public boner with that slutty limp" with a big grin when I've injured my foot than. "Forsooth, my goddess, your pearlescent toes are wilting and causing the Angels to weep. May I please take your divine splendour home in my humble and unworthy wagon?"

I also prefer "mouthy tart" to "my beauteous wonder of feminine light"

But that's also because I prefer humour and endearment. I feel someone gets me and really likes me and feels comfortable with me.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I want to expand on the compliment factor because I'm a very curious person in general. Are femmes suspicious when a butch gives them compliment? I mean do you think a butch has an ultra motive if they do or are you more inclined to just accept the compliment at face value? The way I've always looked upon compliments are they cost nothing to give, and can make a person's whole day!



Depends on how it's given and timing.. Sometimes timing is very important, I get complimenting someone you find attractive or whatever it is you are feeling, that's different than super imposing some weird machismo oh look I am taking time out of my life to let validate you..

That right there, makes me want to throat punch someone, very few people have good game, smoothness or je ne sais qua..

Sometimes people get pissy when you don't acknowledge a what they deem a compliment, it's really hard to explain and I am unsure if this only happens to feminine.female identified folk...

[nycfem]

I'm a 42 year old femme paired with an almost-59 year old butch (17 year age difference). We've been together 10 years, have lived together in small quarters almost that long, and are very happy together. When we first met at a mutual friend's birthday party, we had immediate lust. In two weeks BB was saying hy was in love with me. That sent me into a panic and I broke up repeatedly and dated other people. BB also ultimately wanted monogamy, and I didn't know if that would work for me. BB got sick of the drama from me and decided to stop all contact with me. This was helpful as it gave me time to think about what I wanted over the course of months. I decided that I did want a relationship with BB and announced that I was ready for a real commitment with an eye towards the long-term. BB was like (paraphrasing), "My friends think you're a crazy bitch, but what the hell, you're cute, and I'm still in love with you so let's go for it." I lived up to my promise and both of us feel that all's well that ends well.

BB said hy was totally into monogamy and private kink. I was more into poly and swing kink. BB said that it was fine if we wanted to come up with some kind of compromise, that hy didn't want to stifle my identity and that we could find some kind of arrangement that both of us were comfortable with. Ultimately I just decided to go with the monogamy because it seemed like such a drag to have to process which would have been necessary if we wanted to go with these two different ways of life. It felt like it would be like raising a kid with two different religions, a little complicated and possibly creating a distance between us. The one thing I did negotiate was that I didn't want to drop my flirtatious personality, and that was agreed upon.

We both struggled with how to romance each other. Early on BB bought me some very traditional expensive pieces of jewelry, and it made me very uncomfortable. Besides my HK engagement ring, I didn't want what reminds me of the trappings of traditional cis-het romance. I hate flowers. When you get flowers, you suddenly have work to do (water, a vase, petals dropping as they rot). I don't eat chocolate, and everyone gets me chocolate. It's an easy gift that people give all the time. At least chocolate is easy to regift! I also struggled with how to romance BB. For hys birthday I used to get expensive concert tickets and weekends away for us that I couldn't afford. It was very stressful for me. I didn't share these feelings, and I felt it was what I should do. Luckily out of the blue BB told me that hy didn't need these grand gestures and that small meaningful gestures and even just time together was what mattered. That was a relief.

[NitroChrys_Butch]

So here is the question - if you met someone that you had interest in - that you admire, respect, desire and have that fire of "know what you want" for - who dosen't do courting (monogamous only seeing each other) right away, but only does dating with no exclusivity or promises until they know you much better, before they even *think* of courting, even if they agree there is a good click, what would you do? Every woman I have ever dated I felt that way towards. There was something and there was interesting and respect but I certainly didn't expect her to drop any other people she was seeing and exclusively date Me.

Would you push her to commit? Give her an ultimatum? Try to do things a new way? Walk away? Try to reach a middle ground? I would not push her to commit. It would take more than a few dates to get to that point. I played the field often and I let every woman know that I was dating other people Right out in the open. I see other people. This honestly gave them the freedom to walk away from Me or to be alright with that and expect Me the same freedom to see other people. I would never walk away. Dating allows two people to develop something if something is there and if it is meant to be deepen the relationship by becoming exclusive.

You've been on two or three dates with them, say, and spend time sending each other emails and call each other for long chats a twice a week. You want monogamy, but she doesn't feel she knows you well enough to make that call and probably won't for three or four months, at least. Your metaphorical balls are turning blue and going to drop off because you are discussing sex, quite openly and I'm great detail, it's an important topic to her. You really want to have sex. She hesitates about it because she knows that you take sex very seriously, right off the bat. My metaphoric balls wouldn't turn blue. It would be up to Me to be clear in stating that if she doesn't want to commit and be monogamous than she should not expect that of Me while I wait for her to decide. She can take three or four months to decide. These things take time to build on. Trust and commitment don't happen overnight. A foundation of respect has to be laid before either party can be.

She says she doesn't mind if you go on dates and talk to others because she doesn't expect exclusivity at this point in time. She will not be pushed, she's fiery and has excellent boundaries. Her no means absolutely not. But she is kind, generous, sweet, nurturing, honest, and much more vulnerable than she'll let people on to.I would agree to continue dating her because she has all these positive attributes. She can't mind if I date if she isn't willing to commit. And if the day comes when she is, I hope that I will have been smart enough to stick around. [ACTUALLY, THAT WAS MY SCENARIO over two years ago.. now she is My wife.. so I was smart enough not to let her go]

[CherylNYC]

I want to expand on the compliment factor because I'm a very curious person in general. Are femmes suspicious when a butch gives them compliment? I mean do you think a butch has an ultra motive if they do or are you more inclined to just accept the compliment at face value? The way I've always looked upon compliments are they cost nothing to give, and can make a person's whole day!

True confessions: I'm irrationally upset by compliments. I can usually handle the first one, but each successive compliment makes me progressively more uncomfortable. Excessive compliments would make anyone uncomfortable, but I start feeling weird from compliment #1. I think I feel as if the person complimenting me is just setting both of us for some sort of huge disappointment later. I've gotten much better at graciously accepting a few, but it hasn't been easy. Now I just warn everyone when they're about to exceed their ration for the day/week/month. It's not that I don't want to know if my date finds me attractive. I certainly want that! I just inappropriately get that strange 'uh-oh' feeling whenever I get complimented.

I'm a 52 y/o femme, by the way. I'm also non-monogamous, and unlike the vast majority of posters here, I don't see monogamy as an eventuality once I start getting serious about someone. I expect to remain some kind of non-monogamous throughout my committed relationship(s).

[RockOn]

Mine would not turn blue and drop off ...just be having severe sexual pains regularly I imagine. If I find her extraordinarily special, I can wait. Simple to say, hard to do but I think in the long run it would be best ... I am only speaking for me.

[candy_coated_bitch]

I’ve learned that romance is a spectrum just like everything else and that part of learning about someone new is to figure out this bit too. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only older butch that has that wired up wrong. I still love to do the OS rituals, but I can now see that not all will appreciate it and it’s not personal, just a different view.

I think understanding that people have different ideas about what is intimate and what is romantic (like the five love languages test, for example) is a good thing. I like people who like touch and quality time, because I'm good at giving that. I love getting acts of service the most. So fixing my bike will be seen as far more swoony and romantic than a gift or a love poem.

But that's also what dating is for, right? Finding these things out to see if you are suited for a relationship!

Kinda why I like taking things slow in the beginning, to find these things out....!

Both snipped.

I am going to weigh in on the romance thing: I LOVE ROMANCE. I love grand gesture, sweeping, formal romance and I also love the romantic times together being silly and doing little things. Some of the most romantic times in my life happened very spontaneously. You might not deduce from my other posts about having really strong emotional boundaries with people that I love romance, but I do. I love traditional, old school romance. I JUST DON'T LIKE IT IF I DON'T KNOW YOU.

If my partner gives me flowers and takes me out on an expensive date to a fancy restaurant and we dress up and shit, it makes me totally giddy. (Not that we need to do it all the time.) But for a first date? With someone I'm just getting to know? If you show up at my door in a suit with flowers I will be freaked the fuck out. Coffee seems like a more reasonable first date, I'm trying to get to know you kind of thing.

imperfect_cupcake: I'm so glad you brought up the five love languages thing. I found it very enlightening when I found out what my top love languages were, and like to know to know the people I am dating's are. Mine are words of affirmation and gifts, almost in equal measure. I *LOVE* (genuine) compliments and to be fawned all over, and reassurances, and to be told how much someone loves me. I need that. (Again--NOT if I've known you for like two weeks.) The gifts part I used to feel weird about--but I love being given things. It doesn't have to be expensive or even cost any money at all.

I just love physical, tangible tokens that show me someone was thinking of me. That they picked up throughout the day, just because. I love being made things. I'm a very tactile person and I love to hold things and run my hands over them, so getting something like a stone or a shell is always wonderful. I like wacky little gifts. A game. A book. A magazine. Fun stickers, a pen, cute socks, a notebook. Seriously, some of the gifts I've been most pleased with over the years cost like a dollar.

But all things in moderation until I know you. That is the key.

Speaking of which--I WANT A KINDER EGG!!!!! I would totally squee to get ones of those as a gift.

Link to the five love languages test: http://www.5lovelanguages.com/

Not that this whole thread needs to be become about that, but now I am developing a theory about how what a person's love language is might influence how they date and try to get to know people. I have found mostly people do things for others that they would see as loving and would want done for themselves and it doesn't always mean the same thing to another person. Because you're speaking a different language.

Ok, I'm rambling and suspecting I have lost total point of what I am doing in this post but am gonna hit click anyways...

[Cin]

I don't recall ever having rules or a laundry list of expectations for much of anything but certainly not for how I plan to date. I'm not concerned if we are going in the same direction since I'm not heading in any particular direction. I'm mostly meandering about enjoying the view, smelling the flowers that I surely would not pick and bring on any date ever again without thinking long and hard about the possible implications.

I probably could have benefited more in my personal life by having an agenda, not being so directionally challenged and planning ahead. But mostly I just trust my instincts and take everything separately and individually as it occurs, which actually did not work out badly in the end. The one thing I do find important to discover, when getting to know someone and figuring out where they might fit in my life, is if they possess the ability to be intimate. People who make it into my inner circle must be able to both trust and inspire trust. In my experience, intimacy is the mother of trust. And when I talk about trust it really has little to do with whether or not someone is having sex with more than just me.

Regarding the question if I could be monogamous quickly during the dating portion of a relationship, that depends on how quickly and of course how I feel about the person. As long as we didn't just say hello a week ago and as long as I think there may be something there and the person's quick desire for monogamy isn't because they cannot understand the difference between intensity and intimacy, I can go fast. Conversely, as long as a person's desire to go slow doesn't hide an inability to be intimate or vulnerable, I can go slow. What drives someone's actions is more important to me than the actions themselves. So if I perceive the possibility of a relationship with the person then I can go slow or go fast depending on the comfort zone of the other. Again it is important and I can't stress this enough, that the other be able to tell the difference between intimacy and intensity. If you believe your heart will break if you can't have me promise you forever and we just met last week, then your an intensity junkie. I don't need the drama. People who barely know each other cannot possibly have a love story for the ages. Personally I find love at first sight to be an impossible concept. What could conceivably be one's definition of love that simply seeing someone could allow you to be in love. How is that even possible? How can love happen by looking? Hell, I wonder how people can fall in love in 6 months, never mind at first sight.

I don't have deep feelings invested in initial relationships. I have feelings don't get me wrong, but I save my deep forever feelings for deep forever relationships. That means that while I am interested and moved by how you feel if we are in the early stages of a relationship, I am not concerned that I will be made to feel any way because of your influence. I won't feel put upon or forced or used or made to feel something I'm not interested in feeling. That generally opens me up to be free to explore areas or move in directions I might not ordinarily go just to see what it's like or where it leads. My feelings are mostly my own and until someone is a very big part of my life they have little power to effect them. I doubt I would ever feel trapped, at least not for long, because if I felt trapped i would set myself free. And the last thing I would ever want to do is have someone feel trapped or forced into something because of something I need. The need to never do that to anyone would trump any other need.

What I want from a relationship has nothing to do with time or speed or ownership. I can usually tell pretty quickly if someone is going to be able to give me the things I need at some point. I need for the other person to see me. I'm not afraid to show who I am, but the other has to be willing to look. People are often deeply invested in seeing what they want to see in others. I want someone who can see me. I want to feel accepted for who I am. I need to feel a sense of safety, i need to be able to be vulnerable and intimate and to trust the other will honor that. I need to have the other try to give these things back to me to the best of their ability. I need them to trust me enough to show themselves to me. I promise to honor their trust. Ultimately time and speed have little to do with this, except in that people are capable of achieving these things at different rates and to different degrees. And I can wait for you to get there as long as you're willing to try. But ownership never even enters the equation. I don't want to own you and you can't own me. You will just frustrate yourself if you try. You will be very unhappy in a relationship with me if that is what you need. I will feel for you but I am not going to own your issues. I'm like coated in teflon when it comes to stuff like that. You can try to put that stuff on me but it will just slide off. Mostly people with the need to own others or the need for drama and intensity grow weary of me very quickly.

There is nothing wrong with being intense. I'm a very intense person. I'm also very earnest. There is a difference between being intense and using emotional intensity as camouflage to hide the fact that you haven't a clue how to be intimate with another person.

[Bèsame*]

I want to expand on the compliment factor because I'm a very curious person in general. Are femmes suspicious when a butch gives them compliment? I mean do you think a butch has an ultra motive if they do or are you more inclined to just accept the compliment at face value? The way I've always looked upon compliments are they cost nothing to give, and can make a person's whole day!

Its all about timing and whether or not it's sincere. I can usually tell, if it's about the moment, something I'm wearing or was brought up in conversation. It's obvious if you pulled that compliment from out of no where. There is no face value, perhaps an ulterior motive would be suspected. But again, all about timing.

[DapperButch]

Link to the five love languages test: http://www.5lovelanguages.com/

Not that this whole thread needs to be become about that, but now I am developing a theory about how what a person's love language is might influence how they date and try to get to know people. I have found mostly people do things for others that they would see as loving and would want done for themselves and it doesn't always mean the same thing to another person. Because you're speaking a different language.



Absolutely. I think Chapman's book (although Christian based, so may not work for everyone), is a great book for couples to read together and discuss.

I'm not sure if you have read the book, but what you are saying is what it is all about. Learning our partner's love language and speaking it to them and vice versa.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Its all about timing and whether or not it's sincere. I can usually tell, if it's about the moment, something I'm wearing or was brought up in conversation. It's obvious if you pulled that compliment from out of no where. There is no face value, perhaps an ulterior motive would be suspected. But again, all about timing.

I think that's part of it for sure. If someone is wearing a tie I can't keep my eyes off, I'll say "that's a *cracking* tie you've got on" but I don't turn to someone in the morning and say "you look lovely today, my darling" just because they are standing there and I want to be nice. That feels awkward to be on the recivieng end for me - compliments to be gracious and positive and not deeply felt. Again, I hate excess of sentiment though and would prefer they made me laugh or giggle with a joke and a wink, if they want to be positive and make me feel good.

It doesn't mean I dont enjoy good manners, it means I wasn't taught that way and I don't fit into that formula of "how to be polite"

That's why when I date some one, compatible sense of humour is one of stop three traits I need in partner. Someone who understands I prefer wit, playful sarcasm, teasing and endearment rather than formal politeness, ritual gratuity, and sentimental outpouring. I know I don't fit into other peoples molds of "what girls like" but you know we are all individuals and I don't like people getting arsey because I don't fit into a math formula about "wot u do to treat girlz so they likes me".

Butches are blokey. Blokes like tools. I'm going to give a butch a saw cause that's what butches like, right? What do you mean not all butches want a saw? This is so complicated! Its like no one has old school values anymore.

I know the above is silly, but that's what it often looks like to me. How about, a butch is an individual person with individual family history and cultural upbringing as well as a personality. So I'm going to find out what that butch wants by talking to them and not taking it as a blow to my ego if I make a mistake. If they are a dick about it, then they can bugger off.

Edit to add: if they *want* me to verbally praise them I will do my best and find reason to. However if they want it more than what feels fun or natural to me and it feels like I'm trying to hard then its not going to feel good for them either. Just like me asking someone to " be more witty" is not going to really work. I do absolutely take my partners needs into co aideration, but again, if we are dating, rather than being a partner, it's going to be quite noticeable where something like this is really clunky in a way that won't jive.

Like one person I dated for a few weeks really wanted a lot of praise and reassurance. For me it was a lot. It found it to start to get on my nerves. To someone else, it may be natural to give that level. She also gave lots and lots of unasked for praise to me about stuff and again, I found that gave me a facial tick. It grated. Badly. Every time wed hang out shed tell me I was a "generous spirit" and I tried to get her to stop but she told me I didn't know how to take a proper compliment. And I'd better get used to it (boundary crossing alert...)

But I'm sire there would be others who loved it!

Again, for me, whole point of dating.
:)

[Cin]

Every time wed hang out shed tell me I was a "generous spirit" and I tried to get her to stop but she told me I didn't know how to take a proper compliment.

I dated this woman once who constantly told me how kind I was. "You're so kind", "You have such a kind way about you", you're really a kind and compassionate person" and on and on and on with that "kind" thing. It got so I would cringe every time I heard a hard K come out of her mouth. I started thinking about what I could do to change her mind about how kind I was. I fantasized how the next time she said how kind I was I would punch her in the face. I figured that would do it. What I ended up doing is what I always do. I talked the issue to death. Whenever she would say how kind I was I would engage her in conversation about what she might mean by kind and how it is a bit of an abstract concept and how can a person be kind, they can act kind sometimes but I doubt they can just be kind like they can be blond. I told her ways in which I was not kind at all. I asked her to consider the possibility that she was more invested in thinking of me as kind than I ever was in being kind. And so and so on. She grew weary of me.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Have I told you lately how kind I think you are Miss Tick?

[Cin]

Have I told you lately how kind I think you are Miss Tick?

Well now there's that generous spirit I've heard so much about!

[homoe]

Miss Tick, it was so kind of you to post and share~thanks

[homoe]

Perhaps "romance" and "romantic gestures" are a bit like the rapidly dying arts of giving and receiving compliments, increasingly fraught with awkwardness and suspicion. Personally, I'd rather just gratefully enjoy the moment and (maybe) worry about what you really had in mind, later.


Gosh I sure hope this isn't so!

I love romance and romance gesture, both giving and receiving. And as I always say a compliment costs nothing to give and it could make a person's day.....:hangloose:

Sidebar: When I say compliment it could be something as simple as telling someone how becoming their hairstyle is on them, or what a striking outfit, shoe, purse etc etc, perhaps even a compliment on the color/shade of said items.