Being female within Butch

[Ascot]

Watching TV the other night I was once again bombarded with commercials for the next miracle anti-aging cream aimed at/for women. Some were replete with "Blah, blah gift included with your purchase of $XX or more, Estee Lauder, blah, blah...". Come to think of it, I don't know that I've ever seen skin care ads for anything other than those to do with shaving that were geared for men. But I digress. First, I was irked by all the messages implying that looking one's age was a horrible thing. God forbid a laugh line or a crow foot. (Wouldn't that be the singular? Don't get me started on the whole blue tooths vs. blue teeth thing.) Then I found myself thinking about how it feels when I am pressed to consciously choose products specifically because I am female. Yes, I am a woman. I've never had discomfort with that fact. The thing is, it just doesn't usually cross my mind. My gender is Butch; I embody female masculinity. When I interact with someone, anyone, I'm not thinking about doing so as a woman, but rather simply as a person. Having said that, when engaging with someone of the Femme persuasion, I am quite aware of the lovely frisson that courses through my Butch veins.

With the exception of bras, very much a necessity for me, literally every article of clothing I wear comes from the men's department. The paste I use in my hair-guy stuff. My deodorant-definitely not girly.My bath soap-cool smelling green tea stuff from Trader Joe's. My toothpaste-okay, that's probably gender neutral. So, when I recently decided to once again start taking a multivitamin, it was an odd and rather foreign experience to read labels and find the product best suited for me, a woman. It's been several years since I've had to purchase tampons, so I suspect that's part of the reason the feeling was stronger than it might have been when I was younger. Regarding the whole tampon thing; I eventually got over my discomfort with plunking them down in front of the cashier, but it still always made me squirm a bit to be standing in that aisle with all that pink and turquoise and whatever other colors marketers deemed most attractive to those in need of FEMININE hygiene products. It does my heart good to see that some company is now packaging their wares in pretty groovy black boxes.

It's entirely possible that I started this thread prematurely because I'm still sussing out my own thoughts/feelings on the subject, but I am curious to hear what others experience in regards to being reminded of one's femaleness while inhabiting butch skin. Is it no big deal? Does it suck for you? Is it just kind of weird or a little annoying? Does it make you want to leap with joy?

[randrum]

I'm not sure if I'm the best person to respond to this. In a lot of ways, I'm still sorting out my identity. But I relate to a lot of what you said.

Everything from my clothes to personal hygiene products in primarily "men's". That being said, I still need to buy tampons. And that's a struggle every time I go. I absolutely hate having to buy them. Whenever I can, I send my sister to buy them for me. Or I go to Sam's and buy a huge box so I don't have to worry about it for a while. And when I do buy them, my anxiety spikes and I can't even meet the cashiers eye. I pray no one sees me.

In terms of multivitamins, I take women's one a day. Because, well, I don't know all the differences between the men's and women's. And biologically I am female. That doesn't bother me so much, for some reason.

Bras. Ugh. That's another push button topic for me. I hate wearing them, in any form. I either wear a sports bra or a frog bra. Thankfully I can order those online now, and don't experience the nervousness and anxiety in the store.

[Ascot]

While I posted this in the "Butch Zone", I invite input from everyone.

Yeah, the whole tampon thing...blech. I don't think I was comfortable with it until I was in college. Eventually I got to the point where the pendulum swung far to the other side, and if I was in the mood for a little dose of schadenfreude, I would intentionally seek out a young male cashier just to watch him squirm. What can I say, I come by my sadism naturally.

The thing about choosing specifically women's vitamins, it didn't discomfit me, but I did find myself having an, "Oh, hmm, yeah, I suppose I should factor that in." moment.

[TruTexan]

I'm a butch , I'm female, I'm a woman (I Love who I am) and I get what you're saying here. Good thread by the way. I think it's worth talking about.
When I was younger, like 17 and early 20's, it used to bother me to buy tampons at the store, completely would get embarrassed. If I could send my gf to get them, I did. I hated buying them. Bra's on the other hand, never bothered me wearing them, I have boobs, I"m a woman, and it's a must have.
I could shop in the under wear dept in the stores and purchase women's jockey underwear cause they don't ride up my ass crack, I hate that, and I could purchase bra's no problem. Never embarrassed me about that. But the Tampon thing? OMG hell to the NO until I got into my 30's and just accepted the fact that it wasn't going to change any time soon so I let it go and stopped being embarrassed buying them. I actually had to stop using them because I would get cramps so bad when I did, I started using pads instead, no cramping with that. I hated having cramps. I hated mood swinging too when I was on my period. I hated it hated it hated it.
As for my clothing, always male, always men's jeans, men's shirts, men's t-shirts, some boxers that fit like shorts, and boys socks cause I have small feet, and boys shoes for the same reason. I do however wear women's sneakers, I find them more comfortable then the boys sneakers.
Multivitamins, nah, I have to take Vitamin D though cause I have a deficiency with it in my older age now.

I see those wrinkle commercials daily and I don't even think twice about it til I see one. I use dove soap to bathe with. I use Aussie shampoo and it smells good. I use CK1 cologne when I do wear it on special occasions. And I use Degree for women deodorant because it works best. I like the baby powder or fresh scent.

On a daily basis, I don't sit around thinking about girl stuff. I usually have too much running amok in my brain to do that. LOL
As I get older and older, I could give a rats ass and don't put too much emphasis on women's things anymore like I did when I was younger. Who cares, I'm still butch, I'm still me. Like me or hate me, I'm still me, and I will always be just me.
I have however thought about using some type of skin protectant/nourishing on my face and hands. Just not sure what to buy. I don't like greasy feeling stuff and I want it to quickly dry. Maybe I will talk to the femmes I know and see what they recommend. I don't mind getting old, hell my hair is all silver now mostly and I don't plan on dying it. LOL I want to grow old gracefully. Thanks for the thread Ascot. I will continue to read and post most likely. I hope more of the butches post responses too.

[bright_arrow]

I just wanted to chime in that even as a femme identified woman, buying tampons is awkward, though not so much as before. It's a fact of life, we don't feel uncomfortable when we buy toilet paper do we? Okay maybe some of us do, but come on.. basic necessities :-\

I've often been the tampon buyer for partners and now I don't really care. Tampons, condoms, underwear, toilet paper... If people want to judge my purchases they can have at it!

[JDeere]

I am glad you want input from everyone!

I am trans, pre T, pre surgeries so I still go through what you have mentioned.

I am the one who buys the tampons, pads, etc for myself as well as my partner (when I have one). I have no issues with that.

As far as bras go, yeah I still wear one, then a binder. Almost all my clothes are men's as well.

I do agree with the others, this is a great topic to be discussed.

[Cailin]

from a fence line view (former butch turned.... somewhat girlie-- i'm still holding onto some of the butch stuff)

Way back when, when I was contemplating transitioning (16 years ago) buying tampons or pads was the most embarrassing thing I think I had every done. I would walk around the store with the pack hidden somehow by other items, and wait until there was a clear check out lane, with no people in it so I could run in, hand money and run out.-- I'm better now, but I still don't discuss periods or bleeding or really

Being forced to walk in the womens section for clothing for bras was so humiliating, and honestly even to this day I'm still very embarrassed about it. I have no idea why, but I am.

But, I always envied how the girlier girls always had ample selections to chose from: Hair care products, bath products etc-- eventhough I used to be pretty simple in my selections-- VO5 shampoo, irish spring soap. I was never big on cologne but when I was a polo person (I preferred polo blue)

I can say I had never cared about facial products that much then, and really not so much now

I'm happy to age-- My hair is finally natural and I cannot wait until it goes grey, I've wanted that color all my life.



and I think i've lost my point...

[Ascot]

Thanks to those of you who have jumped in.

I think my referencing the purchasing of tampons served to derail where I hope this thread will go. No doubt that activity is uncomfortable, gross or even anxiety causing for some. The reason I mentioned it, however, was simply as an example in my recent history of having to choose a product specifically because I am female. I realize that might make it seem as though I'm inclined to lose sight of that fact, but as I wrote in the original post, it's more that I just rarely think about it. I live in a part of the country, (north of Seattle) where "Ma'am" is not widely used, unlike when I lived in North Carolina where it served as an almost daily reminder. Here, too, it seems as though people accept others as just people. My experience has largely been that my reception is the same from men and women. Maybe that's the case because of how I make my way in the world. I don't know. I can't speak to that anymore than theoretically.

My talking about wearing a bra was only to show the distinction between that and every other single thing I wear. As I do that every day, while it is inherently a female article of clothing, I don't even think about it that way anymore. It's just part of my daily dressing routine. Someone mentioned wearing women's sneakers because they have small feet. I couldn't even if I wanted to, lol. I wear a men's 10.5-11. Friends tease me, saying it's a good thing I'm Butch because if I had to try to cram my feet into girly shoes I'd be in BIG trouble. By the way, my use of "girly" is in no way intended to be dismissive or demeaning. I have huge affection and admiration for things girly when they are used, worn and expressed by others for whom it is fitting.

I think it's possible I'm rambling, so, back to the point. Most of the time I don't give much energy to thinking about being female. When I am reminded about it because of choices I have to make, it almost surprises me. Is that weird? It's not a negative experience, just a little strange. While my personal definition of Butch is one of female masculinity, existing within or without proximity to Femme, it is certainly the case that when I am around Femme energy I feel even more Butch. Considering my own take on Butch, one might surmise, then, that feeling more so would also engender more feelings of femaleness, but I don't find that to be the case. I suppose I'm wondering if my experience is unique. I cannot imagine it is.

[TruTexan]

Thanks to those of you who have jumped in.

I think my referencing the purchasing of tampons served to derail where I hope this thread will go. No doubt that activity is uncomfortable, gross or even anxiety causing for some. The reason I mentioned it, however, was simply as an example in my recent history of having to choose a product specifically because I am female. I realize that might make it seem as though I'm inclined to lose sight of that fact, but as I wrote in the original post, it's more that I just rarely think about it. I live in a part of the country, (north of Seattle) where "Ma'am" is not widely used, unlike when I lived in North Carolina where it served as an almost daily reminder. Here, too, it seems as though people accept others as just people. My experience has largely been that my reception is the same from men and women. Maybe that's the case because of how I make my way in the world. I don't know. I can't speak to that anymore than theoretically.

My talking about wearing a bra was only to show the distinction between that and every other single thing I wear. As I do that every day, while it is inherently a female article of clothing, I don't even think about it that way anymore. It's just part of my daily dressing routine. Someone mentioned wearing women's sneakers because they have small feet. I couldn't even if I wanted to, lol. I wear a men's 10.5-11. Friends tease me, saying it's a good thing I'm Butch because if I had to try to cram my feet into girly shoes I'd be in BIG trouble. By the way, my use of "girly" is in no way intended to be dismissive or demeaning. I have huge affection and admiration for things girly when they are used, worn and expressed by others for whom it is fitting.

I think it's possible I'm rambling, so, back to the point. Most of the time I don't give much energy to thinking about being female. When I am reminded about it because of choices I have to make, it almost surprises me. Is that weird? It's not a negative experience, just a little strange. While my personal definition of Butch is one of female masculinity, existing within or without proximity to Femme, it is certainly the case that when I am around Femme energy I feel even more Butch. Considering my own take on Butch, one might surmise, then, that feeling more so would also engender more feelings of femaleness, but I don't find that to be the case. I suppose I'm wondering if my experience is unique. I cannot imagine it is.

Ascot, you're not alone in how you feel. I don't sit around thinking about my being female, I just am and I accept it. There are times when I am reminded that I am and it makes me think about it and I often go ohh yeah I am. LOL
My butch is female masculine energy, not girly by any means. When I'm around a femme or femmes, I feel even more butch because it's the femme energy that tends to bring my own energy more alive. Kinda feels really good too. I don't think it engenders more feelings of femaleness within myself either, in fact I think it's just brings out the butch in me more.
And to let you know, my women's tennis shoes are NOT girly either. I don't do girly things. LOL I know you meant nothing by that, I just wanted to clarify that myself. LOL

I hope this thread keeps going, I find it interesting .

[Ascot]

I'm so relieved to know your tennis shoes aren't girly! ;) Thanks for adding to the thread.

[JDeere]

I don't think your experience is unique nor do I see your posts as rambling. I have a feeling more folks will come along, more butches, per say to put more input on here.

[BullDog]

I would say that I think of myself more as being butch than I do female. For me personally, butch is rooted in female (I know it isn't for every single butch), so it's kind of just understood for me.

The examples that have been brought up in this thread- buying tampons, bras, clothing, etc.- for me these are situations where I think being female gets disrupted somewhat for many butches, because society really isn't set up for the way we do female or woman. So I don't think it makes me feel more female or more woman, but just is a reminder that I don't fit society's ideas of what female and woman are.

I think I am most consciously aware of being female and woman in terms of women's issues, feminism, etc.- more from a political standpoint, since I feel my gender is butch. So unequal pay, sexism, etc.- those are my issues too.

Being around femmes definitely heightens my awareness of being butch. It does around other butches as well, but in a different way. For me it's about energy. I don't feel more butch, but yes my senses are heightened.

Certain activities heighten my sense of being butch also. Going to the barbershop and getting my hair cut does. I know not all butches go to barbershops or have short hair. That doesn't make me more butch than another butch. It's just the experience for me is butch, when I go out get my hair cut, go out for a burger afterwards. It's like my butch spa day. I feel quite butch when I am working out or playing sports. So there are certain activities that heighten my awareness also.

I'm not sure if any of this is what you are trying to discuss Ascot, but great thread.

[Kobi]

If I am reading this correctly, I am going to be presenting a different side.

I am an atypical female. I like and embrace my femaleness. It never sneaks up on me nor do I have to be reminded of it. It is very much a part of who I am.

With the exemption of male running shoes (last longer) and Joe Boxer socks (which I love the feel of), I shop for female clothing in stores catering to women.

I dont freak out when I have to buy products related to having a female body or have tests/exams for females. It is what it is.

I found a bra I like so I am fond of buying them in assorted colors and patterns.

Im not big on scents and prefer any soaps, lotions, shampoos to give a fresh smell and a refreshing feeling - dial, ivory, suave products do just fine. I dont understand skin care products but do peruse the Estee Lauder site when I am ordering stuff for my Mother.

I havent noticed any difference in how I feel about me around femmes. I tend to prefer those who are partial to a female partner who appreciates her own femaleness.

Occasionally, I run into something I dont quite expect. This week my gf bought a Kate Spade handbag and informed me my outfit had to fit the bag. Im not sure what this means but I am presuming it means my sweats and tees will not mingle with said bag in public. In private, I am gathering said bag will have its own shrine in the closet.

Ascot are you asking if certain products made for different sexes enhance butchness or compliment butchness, or detract from butchness?

[Ascot]

I found myself nodding whilst reading your post, Bulldog. I definitely relate to and agree with your comments about how it feels to be around other butches, going to the barbershop, etc. I think I actually chuckled aloud at "butch spa day". That's the beauty of being Butch, isn't it, that there is such a panoply of permutations on the theme.

Kobi, you say that you think yourself atypical (or did you mean to type "a typical"?) because you like and embrace your femaleness. At least that's how I read what you wrote. I think your are, in fact, in the majority. I neither dislike nor disavow mine. I wasn't asking about certain products enhancing, complimenting or detracting from anything. More, I was speaking to what one experiences when faced with choices that remind, reinforce, reiterate etc., particularly if one isn't as inclined to think about their femaleness all the time because for whatever reason it isn't in the forefront of their mind. I too am partial to women who want a female partner; it's pretty much my own definition of lesbianism. Good luck with the Kate Spade bag, lol.

[Virago]

Focusing on Ascot's original question: "I am curious to hear what others experience in regards to being reminded of one's femaleness while inhabiting butch skin. Is it no big deal? Does it suck for you? Is it just kind of weird or a little annoying? Does it make you want to leap with joy?"

I am in the same direction as Kobi. My femaleness never sneaks up on me. I am female. I did go through a period of time where I considered transitioning, and struggled with the decision for about 10 years (and ironically was my most feminine during that time...I guess as a balance to my inside thoughts).

I've seen our community go through many changes during the decades I've been with it. In the eighties in New York we were NOT allowed to be Butch or Femme, but all just to the left or right of androgenous--everything equal. I mean Everything. Then Butch and Femme started to emerge strong again. we set up our own codes of conduct and felt the pressure to act a certain way (butches wore short hair, femmes wore heels). During that time I was not in balance with myself...so during that time Yes, I would be surprised at my feminine self when I felt butch inside. But now, our community has gotten so much more accepting of difference, and that has helped many of us, myself especially, accept our own differences.

So now, I do on occasion dress in a dress (a rare occasion, but it can happen). I do wear mascara and eyeliner (what can I say? I like how I look with it. I'm a Maybelline Butch :) ) But I am definitely butch. I am not surprised by my femaleness nor is it annoying. It also does not make me leap for joy. It just is who I am. Me. Maybelline Butch with longish hair! :)

[Ascot]

An interesting bit of history, Virago. Thanks for that. For many, many years I had long hair and was known to sling on some eyeliner from time to time. I get it. I feel I should clarify that my being female is not something that I ever feel ambushed by. Not once in my life have I ever had a "Holy fuck, I'm a woman!" moment. Nor am I anything akin to repulsed by it. Years ago a gay boy friend of mine said something that rather broke my heart. "When I was younger I used to pride myself on being beautiful, much like a young woman. Now, I'm aging like an old man." The way he said it, it seemed as though he was somewhat surprised by that turn of events. That's not what it's like for me. (Although in my more cantankerous moments, I might actually seem like I'm aging like an old man, lol.) I wish I could come up with an analogy that would precisely speak to how it feels to me. I think I'll sleep on it.

[Cin]

I think I am most consciously aware of being female and woman in terms of women's issues, feminism, etc.- more from a political standpoint, since I feel my gender is butch. So unequal pay, sexism, etc.- those are my issues too.

I totally feel like this. I see myself as a woman and female and as someone who stands in solidarity with other women.

Half the world's population is at the mercy of the geographical birth lottery to determine what type of inequality they will experience in life, whether they will be subjected to being owned, tortured at the whim of men, forced to marry while still a child, not allowed an education or simply do more work for less money while the control of their bodies is being legislated away from them. What happens to all women diminishes me as a woman and as a human being. I must push against this always.

I am a woman in the biological sense for certain, but even more in the political sense and the personal will forever be the political in my eyes. So regardless of my female masculinity or my masculine look, I will always be standing on the female side of the male/female equation. Because of this I am ever and always aware that I am a woman and that all the things that happen to women could easily happen to me, as the old mantra of feminism taught me, we can all be battered and raped. So the understanding that I am a woman is always in the forefront of my mind.

That being said I am also aware that I am not your average woman. I don't do woman/female like society expects. I am a butch, a masculine female and that is all I can be, to be anything else would be a lie. And I'm happy with that. So in that sense I don't think of myself as being a women or as female.

I get that sounds contradictory but I am happy enough living a contradiction. I have no trouble holding two opposing ideas. So while I never think about myself as being a woman, I never forget that I am a woman and damn proud of it.

When I shop for clothes or personal care items, or really anything at all, I have the whole store to choose from, I have everything to choose from. I am not limited by anything but my taste. I buy men's clothes and I buy women's clothes. I buy what I like regardless of what department it is placed in. I guess more than not thinking about whether I am a woman or not, I just don't think about the sex/gender of inanimate objects. I buy what I want.

[BullDog]

MT, I find myself nodding with so many of your posts. Of all the ones I have read over the years, this one definitely resonates as much as any of them.

Yes, the political is deeply personal for me. I too believe that all things that happen to women could easily happen to me, and that is one of the main reasons why I stand in solidarity with other women, even if much of the woman/female experience feels foreign to me or something I have never experienced. Not to mention the fact that we live in a very sexist world that needs to be stood up against and changed.

In most ways I do feel "all guy." I feel I have strong masculine energy, appearance, outlook and interests. I do have body dysmorphia, especially in the chest area, so the female aspect is not clear cut for me. At the same time, I was not born a male and not socialized as one. I am more connected with other women on a social, political and historical level- and for me those aspects are deeply personal.

[Ascot]

I've been thinking a lot about this. For as long as I can remember, probably longer even, because my mother was also a feminist, I have been conscious of and concerned about women's issues; socioeconomic, political, reproductive even though that didn't apply to me, per se. I support women owned businesses, I factor in women's rights whenever I vote. I've never lost sight of the fact that I am a woman and the import and precariousness of that in our world.

In my initial post used I "woman" and "female" interchangeably, and that was probably a mistake or at least misleading. I understand how that might seem strange to some, because after all, aren't they ostensibly the same thing? For me that's not necessarily the case. Maybe it breaks down along sex/gender lines. I identify my gender as Butch and that is considerably rooted in masculinity, even within the parameters of my definition of it which includes the word "female". I sometimes refer to myself as a guy, "one of the guys" "a boys' night out", etc. I consider myself a bachelor and want eventually to be a husband. While I have no desire whatsoever to be male and I don't grapple with body dysmorphia, my presentation is decidedly masculine of center. I think that's why the occasional, out of the blue reminder of my femaleness can catch me unawares even as I continue to be involved with women's causes.

[TruTexan]

I see myself as just a butch and I'm lesbian. I partner only with lesbian femmes that want a female butch. I'm female, live like a female, worked in most of my employment years in male oriented jobs because I can and liked them, and I wear men's clothing. I see myself as "one of the boys" with guy friends and other butch friends. I don't see myself or identify as male by any means. Butch as a gender is new to me as is masculine of center.
I'm 51 so a lot of the new stuff is hard for me to understand at times, and I have no friends that see themselves that way in r/t.
I see sex as either male or female and often times in my head it's still interchangeable with gender roles. I guess its how I was brought up, or how I understand things, not sure.
I do know that Butch is a noun and an adjective to me. It describes who I am inside and out. I also support women and their struggles in life and equality as well as the right to do with their bodies as they deem fit.

[Birch]

I guess I will give it a shot...

I guess what hits me like ascot was asking is when someone uses my real first name. I have had the same nickname forever...my pay stubs have it...bank stuff uses it and so on..
Every now and again I am shocked to hear the name.....via voice message or just something new in my life. In a waiting room and my name is called and the confusion and looks when I get up as THAT person.
The shock is not oh I am a woman...it's more...that's me?....in a general sense. It might just be seeing others reactions. That they are not aware of butches in general...which I completely don't get. Hopefully those moments open eyes and people in general are more aware.

I think every human is amazing in their own skin.

I also just wanted to mention something about the vitamins......
I found out a long time ago that I have very high testosterone levels...and because of this my doc told me to get men's vitamins and hair care ...hygiene products.

I hope this was on topic.

Birch

[Kobi]

Kobi, you say that you think yourself atypical (or did you mean to type "a typical"?) because you like and embrace your femaleness. At least that's how I read what you wrote. I think your are, in fact, in the majority. I neither dislike nor disavow mine. I wasn't asking about certain products enhancing, complimenting or detracting from anything. More, I was speaking to what one experiences when faced with choices that remind, reinforce, reiterate etc., particularly if one isn't as inclined to think about their femaleness all the time because for whatever reason it isn't in the forefront of their mind. I too am partial to women who want a female partner; it's pretty much my own definition of lesbianism. Good luck with the Kate Spade bag, lol.


I meant atypical female/woman as in not a typical female/woman but still a proud female/woman very much aware of my sex all the time.

Ironically, it was the butch-femme community that made me more conscious of my femaleness, how important it was to who I am, and how important it was to me to be seen as such.

On the one hand, because I am not a femme, it feels like I am seen as something other than a female/woman. Along with that, it feels like there are assumptions and presumptions made about my having issues with being female, issues with my female body, and issues with boundaries because of my femaleness.

On the other hand, butches welcome me as a "guy", one of the "boys", or a "bro". I understand it is a form of solidarity and acceptance. Yet, it feels like this ignores my femaleness or turns it into something else.

Different things work for different people. Being a female and a woman is who I am. Being seen by others as a female and a woman is like a wow moment for me.

[Cin]

In my initial post used I "woman" and "female" interchangeably, and that was probably a mistake or at least misleading. I understand how that might seem strange to some, because after all, aren't they ostensibly the same thing? For me that's not necessarily the case. Maybe it breaks down along sex/gender lines. I identify my gender as Butch and that is considerably rooted in masculinity, even within the parameters of my definition of it which includes the word "female". I sometimes refer to myself as a guy, "one of the guys" "a boys' night out", etc. I consider myself a bachelor and want eventually to be a husband. While I have no desire whatsoever to be male and I don't grapple with body dysmorphia, my presentation is decidedly masculine of center. I think that's why the occasional, out of the blue reminder of my femaleness can catch me unawares even as I continue to be involved with women's causes.

I have heard people identify with their sex but not with their gender in that they understand themselves as female but don't feel like a woman. They see themselves as one of the guys and talk about their butch brothers and such. I have also heard people who easily identify as female and as a woman albeit a masculine one. They don't embrace their masculinity as being necessarily male and don't see themselves as a dude. They are comfortable with being a woman and believe they just do woman differently and that's only because of society's rigid definition of how being a woman looks.

I guess I am a bit of a hybrid. I always identify with and am aware of my sex and gender. I am happy and proud to be a woman and to be female. I also don't mind being seen as one of the guys. I don't like male pronouns only because it feels erasing. I am a she and hanging on to my femininity has been a struggle for as long as I can remember. It always feels like people push you into choosing sides. Either you are male or you are female. If you present as masculine you need to turn in your female card at the door. I am a masculine woman but I'm not a guy. Yet I'm not uncomfortable being very masculine. It is who and how I am.

Ascot, you mention your presentation as decidedly masculine of center. I guess if center is a neutral presentation and one side is feminine and the other masculine then I too am decidedly masculine of center.

But I think it is difficult to tease masculinity away from male and femininity from female. I try to do it by identifying my masculinity as being female masculinity which I see as markedly different from the male variety. However society is not really capable of separating masculinity from male thus the hostility and hatred a masculine woman can experience from some people by just simply being. Often I'm initially seen as male but upon further examination something about me sounds an alarm, I don't know perhaps it's my breasts :|, but something gives me away as a usurper, a pretender. And that makes some people very angry. They act as though I am trying to fool them into believing I am a man, which is pretty much the last thing I am trying to do.

Yet I can't deny I do enjoy and identify with much of what is considered male. If I just simply walked like a guy for example I could put it down to an issue with my mobility. But it's much more than that. So for lack of a better word to explain myself I say masculine but i put the qualifier female in front to separate myself from man/male. But I do enjoy being one of the guys, somebody's butch brother and indulging in the occasional boy's night out. In that way it would be easy for me to say I see myself as female but I don't identity as being a woman...

...except of course I do. When I was younger how I would to try to explain these contradictions was to blame the confusion on society's definition of a woman. And I believed I could open up this definition to allow for me, I just had to keep pushing against the boundaries. I don't feel I need to open up the definition of what it means to be a woman to include me anymore. I believe it is both impossible and unnecessary because I am a woman. That is not open for debate, although you might think it could be to hear how society decides what my masculine appearance means. Regardless of what society thinks, I am a woman and I don't need to change or open the definition to include me. It already includes me and it always has. Which is why I have decided to stop acting like I need to change something about what it means to be a woman to allow for the likes of me. It already does allow for me since I AM indeed a woman. To behave as though something about woman needs to change for me to be one is just buying into society's gender insanity. What needs to change is society's gender insanity. And what I would need to do is change society's belief that woman does not include the likes of me. And that is a fool's game. I don't need permission to be a woman. I am a woman. So I will just reach out and take that definition thank you very much. I can't change the world by getting caught up in it's delusions.

I see it kind of like insisting I am a dancer to a group of dancers whose dance is defined by moving around gracefully in step with each other and in sync with the music, when my dance consists of my jumping all around while gesturing wildly and listening intently to music only I can hear. This group of dancers would feel justified in the belief that I am not a dancer. I would be hard pressed to convince them otherwise. This might not feel good to hear but the real tragedy would be if I let them convince me not to dance or if I spent my life trying to get them to see the merit in my dancing. Better that I just continue to move to the beat of my own drummer dancing in my own way and finding others who hear my music and joining with them in our own expression of what it means to be a dancer.

I have always looked masculine. It's in the way that I walk, talk, or interact with the world around me. I don't chose it, I certainly don't encourage it, neither do I discourage it. It just is. I haven't tried to pump it up or tone it down. I may have a bit of body dysmorphia although as I age i don't find it quite as distressing as it used to be. It's always been that what I see in the mirror does not reflect my idea of who I am. But I imagine a lot of people can say that for a variety of reasons. When I get all duded up and look in the mirror it is always a tad jarring. I'm like oh ya, breasts, damn what are they doing there, spoils the whole look. So perhaps in that way I am consistently surprised by being a woman. But I never forget I am a woman and female and damn happy to be so. I think the surprise comes when i am forced to confront how my idea of who and what a woman is differs greatly from what society has deemed a woman to be. Then I am confused and uncomfortable because that is not who I am.

I don't know it seems like the more words I use the less clear I am.

[DapperButch]

I also just wanted to mention something about the vitamins......
I found out a long time ago that I have very high testosterone levels...and because of this my doc told me to get men's vitamins and hair care ...hygiene products.

I hope this was on topic.

Birch

I think this is good to highlight. A lot of butches will buy all male products when it isn't the right choice for their bodies, especially vitamins, which will not meet their body's needs.

Until I went on testosterone (very recently), I always bought "women's shampoo". Women's shampoos are created for cleaning hair that is grown from an estrogen based hormone system. It has nothing to do with one's sex/gender identity.

If people are uncomfortable buying body products whose ingredients are influenced by the person's sex (which not all "womens" and "mens" products are), they should consider buying unisex products. My body lotion, for example, has been "for all bodies". My face lotion has always been a "woman's" face lotion (not that I have always been good about using it!).

I know I am continuing something that may be a bit off topic, but I have never seen this discussed on BFP and I think it is important for people to know/note.

[Ascot]

I only have a minute right now, but I want to express my appreciation for how this thread is going. There has been wonderful input and insight and no one's been contentious. Regarding what some might consider veering off topic, what's a little tangentiality between friends? Viva la evolution.

[ProfPacker]

it always amazes that you get what you need when you need it. Miss Tick spoke of many of my feelings. However as many know I have discovered and allowed my more masculine side to emerge and yet still feel like a female and a woman. I do feel the woman part reciding as I feel more butch but I like to embrace all parts of myself. I do feel that at times I love how I have evolved as butch in dress and demeanor and feeling. The world sees me as a woman and my kids see me as a woman although I feel more female than woman.

However, there are times that I feel between two worlds. The world that knew me before my change in my sense of self and the world that knows me as I change.

I have to admit and this is hard that when I am id'd as I have been as someone's bf I am both excited by it and confused by it and my feeling. It is about gender not sex. I don't know where this is going but this thread is very good for me.

[Ascot]

It certainly wasn't my intent to let this thread languish. Darn that pesky thing called life getting in the way!

It's funny how things go. The other day I was shopping and as I was perusing the shampoo (I change it up fairly regularly) this thread crossed my mind. Prior to starting it, I'd never once given any thought to whether what I washed my hair with was created for someone with an estrogen based physiology. I've most often made my choice based on the fragrance of it. I appreciated that I'd been given that food for thought.

What I've most been thinking about is the masculinity vs. male idea;lately I've been taking a much closer look at it. As someone said, Miss Tick I think, it can be quite difficult sifting one from the other. Societally. there is most often little if any difference between the constructs. I will readily admit that within my ideal butch/femme framework, there are elements of the heteronormative paradigm that appeal to me greatly. A large part of that appeal is the perversion of it that exists because there are two women in the dynamic; me, the masculine half who adores and revels in the glorious femininity of the other half even as she is enamored of and excited by my masculinity. It may well happen that some of our responsibilities break down along stereotypical gender lines and I love that, when I have one, my partner appreciates that I'm still very much female. There are particular contexts in which I find being called Sir incredibly erotic. (The grocery store is not one of them) I wear men's clothes, I take up space, I am unapologetic about my assertive energy. To many who don't know any better, I'm sure these traits and many more would have them thinking I'm "the man" in the relationship. Sometimes I want to rail against such ignorance, but the fact is, most of the time I'm fine with it. I get off on it and play with it on occasion. I don't care what it looks like to anyone from the outside. Still, I've not once ever harbored a desire to truly be male. I enjoy straddling that line, twisting it, blurring it, but I don't ever wish to be completely on the other side of it. As far as I'm concerned, being Butch is the best of all possible worlds for me. I get to be as masculine as suits me without having to pick up some of the baggage that this world can put on men. I also don't feel as though I'm missing out on anything because I'm not granted whatever perceived benefits come with "male privilege".

[TruTexan]

I love being the butch that I am and that equates to straddling and blurring the lines for me as well. I have never wanted to be male or a man. I love being the woman that I am, strong minded, assertive, even aggressive. I too am often seen as "the man" in the relationship, even though that isn't true. I don't even bother correcting people anymore, it doesn't bother me what they think, it's what *I* think that matters and how *I* feel about who I am. And with that, I Love Who I Am and That Happens to be a Female , a Woman, and Butch.

The ONLY thing that bothers me is how butches are treated within our own community, the lesbian community. for those that don't understand us and what it means to be butch, that we don't want to be a man. I've heard it time and time again said to me and to femme friends that date butches ..."If you want to be a man, get a sex change" and "If you want a man, then why not just be with one". That just curles my stomach into knots and makes me step up and speak up. Thank goodness I haven't heard that much in my life though. But the times that I have, it got pretty heated during an argument that ensued over what was said.

[Ascot]

That sucks, Tru, what you've experienced. Even trying hard to recall, I cannot remember one instance wherein I've been the recipient of any butch backlash within the lesbian community. I was surprised and disappointed when you said you have. Maybe, because the folks I tend to associate with most are at least BDSM leaning, there is more openness? I don't ever face denigration of any sort. I don't generally in my life beyond the community, either. Yeah, sure, as I mentioned in my Butch Visibility thread, there's that one motherfucker at the locally owned hardware store and even he's starting to mellow a tad. It's been a long while, but I'm wearing him down.

I mean no disrespect to any of my brethren nor am I intentionally inviting scorn when I say that it's definitely the case that some butches have a major chip on their shoulder. I know I do about certain things from time to time, but it's never connected to how I make my Butch way in the world. I'm sure mine all have to do with things I'm not so keen on in myself. Likely, probably even, the chips are not unwarranted. A chip, wariness, reticence, discomfort in ones' skin, accessibility, trust, easygoingness, you name it...all of these things, I believe, emit vibrations/energy/some message that others react to subconsciously. I will talk with anyone, and it never crosses my mind to wonder what their feelings are regarding my butchness. (I'm talking about the public at large. I often think about what Femmes think and feel in proximity to my butchness) It's not something on me. It's in me. It is me. I knew I was queer when I was a little kid. And, while I didn't have the vernacular to label myself Butch, I knew myself to be not at all girly. It's never been a separate part of my identity. I'm meandering. I wonder if butches who embraced that aspect of themselves later in their journey and who might not yet feel quite so settled into it are also those who most get less than positive treatment? Some people are just asshats and butchness has nothing to do with it. Back to the chip thing. If you've had a lot of bad shit happen to you specifically because you're Butch, it makes sense that you might be on the defensive a lot of the time. I've talked about shouldering it. About how by being butch I'm outing myself every time I leave the house. I like that. I like that as I go about my day I hope at least one stranger who interacted me had the thought, "Yeah, she's definitely a lesbian, and she's friendly and funny and just like everybody else. Huh." I think it must be dreadful to assume that people are going to react negatively to your butchness. My shoulders tighten just imagining it. I'm not sure where I'm going with this...

Another thing I think would be fun and interesting to talk about are those traits/passions/hobbies we might possess or engage in that are considered decidedly more feminine by most everyone. Do you think, "Because I'm Butch, everything I do is Butch!" or are you more like me and from time to time catch yourself thinking, "Hmm, that was pretty girly."? There is nothing negative for me in such thinking, but there is definite amusement. A straight female friend is getting married in August, and the last time we got together for lunch, she asked if afterward I would help her shop for necklaces for her bridesmaids. She has a particular color scheme in mind, but otherwise the style is wide open. I think she's going to base her choices on the bridesmaids' personalities which I think is cool. So there I am, prowling vintage shops, combing through piles of jewelry, offering commentary. It was a lot of fun and felt pretty girly. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. That "I'm doing something girly" sensation...it's hard to describe. It's amusing as I said, and strange though it might seem, in a way it's reaffirming of my butchness. The dichotomy, maybe? Mentally it kind of feels like playing dress up. Sometimes it's just fun to flounce.

[BullDog]

I haven't received bad treatment in lesbian communities either, and I have lived in some of the most lesbian-centric places in the U.S. (Santa Cruz, CA; Ithaca, NY; Portland, OR and now near Northhampton, MA). All those places have lots and lots of lesbians. I've been to tons of lesbian events and been out with butch friends and seen other butches around and observed how people have been treated for over 30 years. So I do think my experience does count for something and has a lot of data backing it up. I just haven't seen lots of bad treatment of butches by lesbians.

However, I have seen lesbians be suspect of femmes, thinking they are straight women in the wrong place. That I have seen on numerous occasions.

(Lots of butches and femmes are also lesbians, I just separated it in the above to make it easier to read.)

So I am sorry for any butches who have received poor treatment from lesbians, but there are assholes in every group of people.

I do experience random homophobia from time to time, but for the most part I am treated fine. And then sometimes people are just rude and has nothing to do with me being a butch or dyke. It happens to everyone.

[CherylNYC]

...

It's not something on me. It's in me. It is me.

...

That, my friend, perfectly describes my perception of all that's glorious about butches.

I apologise to any and all if I'm being invasive by commenting here, but I felt a need to highlight that quote.

[TruTexan]

I haven't had a lot of ill things said towards me, just some by asshats in the community and they happened to be the same ones that said the same thing to my friends I was with, as I stated in my last post.I just wanted to clarify that it was androgenous lesbians that said the things they said for whatever reason.I guess they didn't like the label thing, I dunno and I don't care. There are just bad apples in the bowl ya know, no matter what community you're in. I didn't mean to make it appear that there were LOTS Of them doing that. It's happened, I moved on since then, I don't harbor ill will towards them, and I've grown from it. I pretty much have known all my years as being lesbian, since I was 16 or 17 when I finally came out that I was Butch. I have always felt comfortable with that. I don't carry a chip on my shoulder for it happening, but I'm sure there are some that might out there. I can only speak for myself, and no chip here for it. :)
I've done things with women that some might consider girly, like helping them clothes shop for what looks good on them, jewelry, hell I even shop in the womens section for my underwear and bras at Jockey store. I am not girly by any means, but it doesn't bother me to do things they may seem that way. Doesn't affect who I am as a butch or my butchness. I just move along through life doing stuff I like to do, most of the time don't even think about it.
Although most of my jobs have been male oriented working jobs, doesn't make me male either. I'm me, the best me that can be, and I"m good with ME doing and making the butch that I am the way I DO BUTCH.
Every butch does butch differently for themselves. What one butch does , another might not do. To each butch their own butchness the way They Do butch. Some paint their toe nails and some don't. some shave their legs and underarms, some don't. Some wear women's clothing and/or underwear, some don't. Who am I to judge how another butch does butch, so to each their own way.

[Ascot]

Thank you, Cheryl. It was lovely of you to say that. I'm glad you found that idea so resonant. Your participation is certainly far from invasive. By all means, please continue if you wish.

[Cin]

I mean no disrespect to any of my brethren nor am I intentionally inviting scorn when I say that it's definitely the case that some butches have a major chip on their shoulder... A chip, wariness, reticence, discomfort in ones' skin, accessibility, trust, easygoingness, you name it...all of these things, I believe, emit vibrations/energy/some message that others react to subconsciously. I will talk with anyone, and it never crosses my mind to wonder what their feelings are regarding my butchness... I wonder if butches who embraced that aspect of themselves later in their journey and who might not yet feel quite so settled into it are also those who most get less than positive treatment? ... If you've had a lot of bad shit happen to you specifically because you're Butch, it makes sense that you might be on the defensive a lot of the time.

I don't think I have a major chip or even a minor one on my shoulder. I am comfortable in my skin and I don't walk through the world wary and reticent. And while I don't know what vibrations i may be emitting that other's react to subconsciously, my expectation is not that they will have a negative reaction to my butchness. I will also talk with anyone. I did not embrace my butchness late in my journey and I am quite settled into it. That being said, I have over the years experienced some extremely negative reactions to my butchness. However, it certainly isn't the norm. It isn't my everyday experience with the world. Everyone I meet isn't trying to beat the crap out of me. But some people have. And some have hurt me badly enough that I take measures to not let it happen again. I really don't think I did anything to deserve what happened to me. I don't think it was my fault due to a chip on my shoulder or not being comfortable in my skin or really anything at all that I did except to carry masculinity in a female body unapologetically. I don't think I was defensive nor am I now, but I do try to be aware of what is going on around me and i listen to my gut. I am not looking for trouble but neither am I blissfully unaware of what can happen when a couple of people decide they don't like my looks. Shit happens, but I'm not to blame for it. However I am responsible for my own safety and my ultimate goal is always to avoid getting hurt whenever possible.

[Tuff Stuff]

Yeah,I can relate to alot of these post.I always wear mens clothes,undies,socks ect.As a kid i'd wear boys clothes "shrug".Never had a problem buying feminine nappies,it was like a diaper to me.
I never wore make-up are used womens beauty products,although I do see myself as a woman/a female.
I seem to want the latest men products that I see in magazines or on tv.
I like being in my skin,I know what I am and who I am blah blah blah.

Interesting thread.

[Celtglen]

I have to say that the years (10) I spent in technology were the worst for me being an out Butch Dyke; it got worse when Seattlegf and I got together and I put some framed pictures of us on my desk.
Jealousy is a green monster.

Before those years I ran my own businesses (photography and video production, landscaping and auto repair) so what I wore or who I was fucking never was an issue. My clothing has always been mens clothing - I was 6' by the time I was in High School.

As far as the feminine products (bras included) I have always had an issue - the bras were and still are uncomfortable especially when repairing cars - I am rather well 'endowed' and took to not wearing a bra so I could flop my girls off to my arm pits so I would shimmy under cars - otherwise it were a lost cause.

In my 30s I wore a bit of lipgloss and bought L'oreal, designer mens clothing and wore Channel #5. Once I got sick (38) and the bucks stopped coming in those fell by the wayside.

In my instance, Butch is what I am by society's definition (strait and queer), I have reclaimed the word Dyke, taken it back from Society and have made it my own and a positive description -- my strait friends cannot figure that out and they still say I shouldn't say that about myself...which makes me cringe because we have an incredible number of Dykes of Distinction in history.

Hygiene products; I buy no aluminum Tom's of Vermont, L'oreal Blue for greying hair (why look at the sparkle!) and Dial mountain fresh because I love the Mtns.

I stopped bleeding a decade ago (YAY!) but I hated every cycle for 30 years and the bulky nappies and impossible Tampons of "old"; be happy someone finally got them right--you youngens have no idea how it felt to ride a horse w/o a saddle every frickin month!

Celtglen

[Ascot]

I had a funny moment yesterday that made this thread come to mind.

My buddy Jake has two young sons, one 4 and the other a cutie pie of 2. I met them for the first time yesterday when we all got together for lunch. Near the end of our meal, the older little guy leans close to his father and in a stage whisper asks, "Is she a dad?" Jake and I shared a look and then burst out laughing. I think it was kind of a genius question, full of insight that a lot of adults lack. This wee being seemed fully aware of the fact that I am female, even as I exhibit a degree of masculinity that had him go with 'dad' instead of 'mom'. More to the point, it seemed very much as though that was a completely reasonable and acceptable thing to him.

It gives me hope that perhaps we are finally starting to get to a place of such things truly not mattering. (I'm not entirely certain that 'mattering' is a real word)

[Bèsame*]

I love this story! There is hope 😃I had a funny moment yesterday that made this thread come to mind.

My buddy Jake has two young sons, one 4 and the other a cutie pie of 2. I met them for the first time yesterday when we all got together for lunch. Near the end of our meal, the older little guy leans close to his father and in a stage whisper asks, "Is she a dad?" Jake and I shared a look and then burst out laughing. I think it was kind of a genius question, full of insight that a lot of adults lack. This wee being seemed fully aware of the fact that I am female, even as I exhibit a degree of masculinity that had him go with 'dad' instead of 'mom'. More to the point, it seemed very much as though that was a completely reasonable and acceptable thing to him.

It gives me hope that perhaps we are finally starting to get to a place of such things truly not mattering. (I'm not entirely certain that 'mattering' is a real word)

[Ascot]

I love this story! There is hope 😃

Yeah, I'm definitely beginning to think there is hope. What I didn't say in the previous post on this topic is that after we stopped laughing, I told the little guy "I don't have any kids, so no, I'm not a dad." Neither Jake nor all I felt any need at all to speak to the gender thing.

I cannot remember if I've mentioned this in another post, but a couple summers ago I was at a cookout at a friend's house (a couple consisting of a male and female partner) when out of the blue their three-year-old daughter, who I've known since she was born, started calling me "uncle Lise". She found her way to that all on her own because that's what made sense to her. I've heard her use "she" in reference to me, so I know she knows I'm female, and I love her for coming up with an amalgam that feels right.

[Ascot]

Speaking of vitamins, this irked me. It is no doubt an irrational irk, but it exists nonetheless.

I purchased a different brand of multivitamin (Nature Made Women's Alive!) the other day and got around to taking the first one this morning. My first thought was, "Damn, these are big" and right on the heels of that was, "Are you fucking kidding me?". They are a god awful, wan, lavendery pinkish color. It's a ghastly color. I often wonder how something like this can come to be, because you know that at least a couple people had to agree that that color was a good idea for it to actually happen, right? More than the visual assault, however, is the issue that this company must believe that women want societally dictated feminine colors pervading every aspect of their lives to the degree that even vitamins must fall in line.

I know, I know...first world problems.

It still irks me.

[RockOn]

Thanks for the topic - interesting. I'm enjoying everyone's posts here.

I identify as butch, stone for specific.

I am nodding my head as in "yes" when I read the other butches posts.

My earliest memories reflect how much I have always hated female clothes.

When I was 3 years old, I heard my great grandmother and grandmother talking about the kind of lace they intended to put on this dress they were making for me. I went to the sewing machine. There lay the dress pattern, all cut out with straight pins holding the paper pattern to the cloth. I sneakily took it to the bathroom, and flushed it down the toilet. Of course they found it because it did not go down.

Another thing so sharp in my memory is Easter Sunday when I was 5 years old. My best friend, Benny, got to wear the cutest little male suit - he even had on a bowtie with it. All day, I was so angry at having to wear this dress and patent leather shoes with ... well, I could write paragraphs about these girlie socks I had to wear. They were so not me! White with turned down cuffs, the edges of the cuffs were wavy and had these tiny pink flowers on them.

All day, I was envious of Benny. Later in the day, I took two of his easter eggs, the boiled egg colored kind, and stomped them into the sidewalk with my little patent leather shoes. He never knew why I did that, just stood there and watched me do it. I hate it to this day that I was mean to him.

[Celtglen]

Kids seem like they better understand gender than we did in the 50s and 60s--etc.

[Ascot]

The image of a little one trying to flush a pattern down the toilet is a funny one. While I didn't go that far, I seem to recall throwing a few pairs of tights out the window. They were definitely the bane of my existence for a couple of years.

For the most part I was pretty fortunate in that my parents acknowledged my tomboyishness even when it came to occasions that dictated dressier clothes. I still had to wear girl things, but not girly things.


Celtglen, do you think that's what it is, that kids understand gender now more than in decades past?

[randrum]

I hated dresses growing up. Actually, I still hate dresses but as an adult I can choose not to where them. As a kid, however, I didn't have that choice. I'd have a fit whenever my parents made me wear a dress. It got so bad that in 4th grade my parents enforced my own "dress code", or should I say my own personal hell.

Twice a week I had to wear a dress to school. It was terrible, or at least it was for me. I started packing basketball shorts in my backpack to wear under the dresses. And I'd come home with grass stains on them. Eventually my parents just sort of gave up.

[Kobi]

Kids seem like they better understand gender than we did in the 50s and 60s--etc.


I dont know that kids understand it better. People have been reaping the benefits from what was started with the womens movement in the 60's and 70's for over 50 years now.

The movement was about breaking free from the stereotypes of and the societal expectations of what it meant to be a female. As a result, females/women were empowered to redefine life for themselves. It affected everything - clothing choices, career choices, reproductive choices, sexual choices, how to express femaleness, etc.

Each successive generation has added to what was started a long time ago.

[Gemme]

Kids seem like they better understand gender than we did in the 50s and 60s--etc.

There's far more exposure to different gender and sex presentations nowadays. Kids are so open and accepting until adults tell them differently.

[Ascot]

The other day i had a lunch meeting with my boss and was pleasantly surprised when he told me that he learns a lot from me. It is not unusual for us to talk politics, art, gender issues, etc. He said that by conversing with me, he has come to have a better understanding of and apprecitation for the relationship dynamics of his lesbian niece and her wife. I think I am the only Butch he's had so much access to, and I applaud him for taking the opportunity to pose the questions he does. He's come a long way for being a self avowed "older white guy who is politically moderate/conservative and kind of churchy." He also gets a kick out of my crisp white shirts (thanks Mom for teaching me you can never go wrong with one) and tells me I'm very Bostonian.

[cathexis]

Need a little advice, please.
Have facial hair (light red chin, moustache, and side burns), just moved to a small closeted town in the NY North Country, and not the tallest womon on Earth (4'10"). Am usually not able to project tons of confidence (tend to walk more like prey).
After the backstory, would you feel comfortable letting your facial hair grow out in this situation?
Lover is one of THOSE fabulous Alpha Butches that light up a room with their energy when entering, but don't want Her feeling obligated to defend me...She would!

[JDeere]

Need a little advice, please.
Have facial hair (light red chin, moustache, and side burns), just moved to a small closeted town in the NY North Country, and not the tallest womon on Earth (4'10"). Am usually not able to project tons of confidence (tend to walk more like prey).
After the backstory, would you feel comfortable letting your facial hair grow out in this situation?
Lover is one of THOSE fabulous Alpha Butches that light up a room with their energy when entering, but don't want Her feeling obligated to defend me...She would!

I pluck not shave. I used to wax but not anymore cuz my thyroid is wreaking havoc on my hair. As of now I wouldn't let it grow, for the fear of either having to defended or going on the defense.

[cathexis]

Thanks for the topic - interesting. I'm enjoying everyone's posts here.

I identify as butch, stone for specific.

I am nodding my head as in "yes" when I read the other butches posts.

My earliest memories reflect how much I have always hated female clothes.

When I was 3 years old, I heard my great grandmother and grandmother talking about the kind of lace they intended to put on this dress they were making for me. I went to the sewing machine. There lay the dress pattern, all cut out with straight pins holding the paper pattern to the cloth. I sneakily took it to the bathroom, and flushed it down the toilet. Of course they found it because it did not go down.

Another thing so sharp in my memory is Easter Sunday when I was 5 years old. My best friend, Benny, got to wear the cutest little male suit - he even had on a bowtie with it. All day, I was so angry at having to wear this dress and patent leather shoes with ... well, I could write paragraphs about these girlie socks I had to wear. They were so not me! White with turned down cuffs, the edges of the cuffs were wavy and had these tiny pink flowers on them.

All day, I was envious of Benny. Later in the day, I took two of his easter eggs, the boiled egg colored kind, and stomped them into the sidewalk with my little patent leather shoes. He never knew why I did that, just stood there and watched me do it. I hate it to this day that I was mean to him.

Those sound like wonderful sox, i'll wear them with camoflage pants, black t-shirt and olive drab hoodie. Can keep the dress and patent leathers though.

[BullDog]

Need a little advice, please.
Have facial hair (light red chin, moustache, and side burns), just moved to a small closeted town in the NY North Country, and not the tallest womon on Earth (4'10"). Am usually not able to project tons of confidence (tend to walk more like prey).
After the backstory, would you feel comfortable letting your facial hair grow out in this situation?
Lover is one of THOSE fabulous Alpha Butches that light up a room with their energy when entering, but don't want Her feeling obligated to defend me...She would!

In my experience getting harassed for looking butch/masculine female is totally random. Some places where I would think I would I haven't, and other so-called liberal places I have.

I do have a mustache and the only time I have been directly harassed for that was in Los Angeles. I have mostly lived in liberal places but have also lived in Tennessee and now in a very small town in New Mexico and haven't experienced any problems. So for me, it seems totally random.

For me, if I got rid of my mustache I would still look butch so I don't think it would make me any safer from attacks. Facial hair on a female might freak some people out more but I would think in most cases it wouldn't make a big difference if you already look like a masculine female to begin with.

In really small towns (population of 800 people where I am at), people don't really have much room to hide if they are rude to someone. You are going to see the same people at the post office, the gas station, the convenience store over and over again, and I do find most people friendly.

I would say get a feel for the town and think about how much it means to you. I personally like having my mustache and don't plan to get rid of it, but if I was constantly getting harassed or felt uncomfortable I would consider it.

[Ascot]

I don't have any experience shaving facial hair, but by all accounts, it seems to make it more noticeable, particularly when it's growing out again. If downplaying its visibility is the concern, maybe bleaching it is a viable option? I joke about having a bit of a 'stache, but it's soft and light in color.

[cathexis]

In my experience getting harassed for looking butch/masculine female is totally random. Some places where I would think I would I haven't, and other so-called liberal places I have.

I do have a mustache and the only time I have been directly harassed for that was in Los Angeles. I have mostly lived in liberal places but have also lived in Tennessee and now in a very small town in New Mexico and haven't experienced any problems. So for me, it seems totally random.

For me, if I got rid of my mustache I would still look butch so I don't think it would make me any safer from attacks. Facial hair on a female might freak some people out more but I would think in most cases it wouldn't make a big difference if you already look like a masculine female to begin with.

In really small towns (population of 800 people where I am at), people don't really have much room to hide if they are rude to someone. You are going to see the same people at the post office, the gas station, the convenience store over and over again, and I do find most people friendly.

I would say get a feel for the town and think about how much it means to you. I personally like having my mustache and don't plan to get rid of it, but if I was constantly getting harassed or felt uncomfortable I would consider it.

A hairy update.lol

Chose to leave it be, but as it gets longer i'll trim and shave
areas.

Plan to create a handlebar 'stache if all goes well, and it should

when i talk the new doctor into putting me back on T (was on for several

years - stopped a few years ago with a doc change r/t move).

Thanx to all for advice and encouragement!!!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^cathexis^^^^^^^^^ ^^^

[BullDog]

Thanks for your hairy update!

Sounds good, especially the handlebar 'stache which is very cool. I hope your new town is treating you well and definitely keep us updated!.

Speaking of small towns and hair, I can't wait to go visit my friend in Albuquerque so I can get my haircut. We don't have much in the way of barbers here. Thank goodness for ball caps because I am really shaggy right now! :D



A hairy update.lol

Chose to leave it be, but as it gets longer i'll trim and shave
areas.

Plan to create a handlebar 'stache if all goes well, and it should

when i talk the new doctor into putting me back on T (was on for several

years - stopped a few years ago with a doc change r/t move).

Thanx to all for advice and encouragement!!!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^cathexis^^^^^^^^^ ^^^

[cathexis]

Thanks for your hairy update!

Sounds good, especially the handlebar 'stache which is very cool. I hope your new town is treating you well and definitely keep us updated!.

Speaking of small towns and hair, I can't wait to go visit my friend in Albuquerque so I can get my haircut. We don't have much in the way of barbers here. Thank goodness for ball caps because I am really shaggy right now! :D

Lived in New Mexico total of about 15 years of which 10 were in Albuq. Love

that city...looking West to Mt. Taylor...East to the Sandias...North, the

Sangria de Christos. Such beauty...low humidity...hot springs.

Will return in the next couple years.

Agree about small towns and haircuts, went to a unisex cutter 3 weeks ago.

Clueless about what i wanted, she said "you DON'T want something

feminine??!!!!! She said this as the clippers were gracing the sideburns.

Stood up shouting "AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH" 'bout causing the clippers

to fall to the floor. No, no sideburns or nape of neck!

Maybe i'll invest in a trip to NYC for grooming...a bit traumatized so i get it

TOTALLY.

[Ascot]

I read an interesting article the other day, written by a gay man who identifies as Femme. I confess, even as my gender is Butch, I've never really given much thought to what it must be like on the other side. As many have stated in this thread and elsewhere, it can be tough being a masculine of center female out and about in the world. Still, I think for the most part, it is easier to be a masculinely presenting woman than it is a femininely presenting man. That's fucked up. It is yet another vile example of how things female/feminine/girly/whatever other adjective you want to insert are devalued because of their inherent nature. This might not even be really the right place for it, but it has been on my mind so I'm putting it out there.

[Mel C.]

Not sure how I've missed this thread but I'll have to read from the beginning when I have more time. For now, I'll say that I consider myself a woman-identified butch. My clothes and personal care products are mostly "men's." I hate buying anything feminine, but acknowledge that I am female. I am okay (and maybe even like a little) being referred to as he or hy within the butch-femme community, but it irks me when a straight person refers to me as sir. I especially hate the "sir, I mean ma'am." Aargh...being female within butch is complicated.

[Ascot]

Contextually, I very much enjoy being called Sir. And, anymore, I get a kick out of seeing someone discomfited by having called me sir and then realizing I'm a woman. But I'm a sadist, so…

[Cin]

I think for the most part, it is easier to be a masculinely presenting woman than it is a femininely presenting man.

Maybe yes, maybe no. Who can really measure such things. I know that feminine men are despised. I know that masculine women are despised. I think if we are talking "for the most part" masculine women are persona non grata. You can find much loved feminine male characters on TV or in the movies. Not so much for masculine women. I can't think of one really. Lesbian sure, but a masculine woman? Never seen it happen (with one exception being perhaps Lea Delaria.) Masculinity is heavily policed so masculine women are not easily tolerated. I'm not saying feminine men have it easy. I am just responding to the idea that feminine men have a more difficult time with society as a whole/in general than masculine women. Check the earning potential of a feminine man next to a masculine woman. At then end of the day, a butch woman is still a woman and is valued by a patriarchal society accordingly. And a woman seen as trying to break into the masculinity club (even though that is not what butch is about, it is just how it is interpreted by a binary gender obsessed society,) is about as welcome as a woman trying to get ahead in a field protected by the old boys club or even the young boys club (see gamergate).