GOT fans: Who Will Kill Cercei Lannister? Predictions?

[Martina]

SPOILERS SPOILERS





There's the green-eyes theory that Arya Stark will kill her since Melisandre prophesied she would kill folk with brown, blue and green eyes. With the Night King, she made her blue eyed kill, and I'm sure a number of folks she's killed have had brown eyes. So, that leaves green eyes, which Cercei has. And, of course, Cercei is at the top of Arya's kill list.

I think if Cercei weren't pregnant, it would be Jaime, kind of lovingly putting her down. But since she is pregnant, that makes it less likely. I also think that makes suicide less likely.

Perhaps she won't be killed although that seems so unlikely.

Thoughts, predictions?

[charley]

SPOILERS SPOILERS





There's the green-eyes theory that Arya Stark will kill her since Melisandre prophesied she would kill folk with brown, blue and green eyes. With the Night King, she made her blue eyed kill, and I'm sure a number of folks she's killed have had brown eyes. So, that leaves green eyes, which Cercei has. And, of course, Cercei is at the top of Arya's kill list.

I think if Cercei weren't pregnant, it would be Jaime, kind of lovingly putting her down. But since she is pregnant, that makes it less likely. I also think that makes suicide less likely.

Perhaps she won't be killed although that seems so unlikely.

Thoughts, predictions?


SPOILER ALERT


I didn't remember Melisandre's prediction... lol (thanks)....haha
The Long Night was so dark... had trouble seeing what was going on in the battle.

So, the prophecy of Melisandre was:

"I see a darkness in you,” she says. “And in that darkness, eyes starring back at me. Brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes. Eyes you’ll shut forever. We will meet again."

So Arya killed the Night King (blue eyes).

As per brown eyes: "The brown eyes may well refer to somebody who has already been killed, Walder Frey - who was murdered by Arya along with every male member of his house - had brown eyes, as did Meryn Trant."

But then again, it may refer to Jaime.

Now, there is another theory that Arya kills Jaime who has green eyes, and then uses his face to kill Cersei, as per the other prophecy by the Witch Maggy telling Cersei: "And when your tears have drowned you, the Valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you." Valonqar refers to the 'little brother'.

It would be perfect catharsis for Arya (using Jaime's face) to kill Cersei.

Reminds me of Dallas (as in who killed J.R.?)

[Martina]

Ooooooo. Well if it's little brother, then it could be Tyrion. Seems a bit excessive after he killed their father, but there is no love lost there. I can imagine her losing her mind and going after him and him defending himself.

[dark_crystal]

This is interesting, bc i feel like Daenarys is going to die?

So maybe there will be a showdown between Cersei and Daenarys in which Cersie mortally wounds Daenarys but Daenarys still kills her on the way to bleeding out. Kind of like what Lady Mormont did with the giant.

[charley]

Ooooooo. Well if it's little brother, then it could be Tyrion. Seems a bit excessive after he killed their father, but there is no love lost there. I can imagine her losing her mind and going after him and him defending himself.

SPOILER ALERT

Ooooohhhh, you may very well be right re: Tyrion

However, after the night battle, many of the allied soldiers were killed; so, I wondered how could they launch against Cersei, when their own troops were so decimated. Somehow, someone fairly trusted would have to get that close to Cersei and walk into her fortress without being stopped so as to do the dirty deed. Tyrion would have trouble doing that, since Cersei would have him killed on sight as he is so recognizable. But, Jaime wouldn't have any trouble getting into King's Landing. It may be that the allied forces ask Jaime to go back and kill Cersei, and he refuses... Cersei was born the first of the twins. Jaime was born shortly after his twin sister Cersei, while holding her foot. So, Jaime is a younger brother.

Like in Kill Bill, Arya is the only one with a kill list which she whispered to herself each night. I still think that it will be Arya who will be the one who actually avenges her father's death. She is THE ULTIMATE AVENGER. I really do like the theory about her killing Jaime, and then using his face to get to Cersei. It is like Ulysses tricking his way into Troy with the Trojan Horse. There just aren't that many classic myths in that kind of literature.

[Martina]

Apparently there has been some fan opposition to Arya having been the one to kill the Night King, as if she doesn't deserve it. Clearly the same group of emotionally stunted males who hated Catelyn Stark for being mean to Jon Snow. (I didn't love her either, but hate? Get a life.)

[Martina]

Kind of like what Lady Mormont did with the giant.

Lord. More eyeball horror courtesy of GOT.

That girl rocked though.

[Martina]

I really hope Dany doesn't die, btw. I want to see her and Jon Snow scooched together on the Iron Throne. Second choice is Tyrion although he has no real claim. Gendry does, but I'm not seeing it. Arya would make one scary ass Queen Consort though.

Re the original question, I am thinking Tyrion now, who also dies as a result of the fight with his sister.

I do think we're going to lose Tyrion. I don't think the fans could take losing both Dany AND Tyrion though, so I think she'll survive. And if she survives, she'll rule.

[dark_crystal]

I really hope Dany doesn't die, btw. I want to see her and Jon Snow scooched together on the Iron Throne. Second choice is Tyrion although he has no real claim. Gendry does, but I'm not seeing it. Arya would make one scary ass Queen Consort though.

Re the original question, I am thinking Tyrion now, who also dies as a result of the fight with his sister.

I do think we're going to lose Tyrion. I don't think the fans could take losing both Dany AND Tyrion though, so I think she'll survive. And if she survives, she'll rule.

I think Tyrion will survive. In the books, there is a sense that he is the main character, in my reading. I think he will be the one we see walking off into the sunset in the last scene, possibly with wife Sansa. Maybe breaking the fourth wall or speaking in voiceover to provide a final frame around everything that has happened

I would not be surprised if Arya dies. She has made her life about vengeance and there would be no place for that spirit in the peacetime world that should be the end result of all this struggle.

Other survival predictions (since we're here)...

Survives:

Tyrion
Sansa
Jon
Bronn
Sam


Dies:

Dany
Arya
Jaime
Cersei
Brienne
Bran
Davos
The Hound
Varys

[dark_crystal]

I really hope Dany doesn't die, btw. I want to see her and Jon Snow scooched together on the Iron Throne. Second choice is Tyrion although he has no real claim. Gendry does, but I'm not seeing it. Arya would make one scary ass Queen Consort though.

Re the original question, I am thinking Tyrion now, who also dies as a result of the fight with his sister.

I do think we're going to lose Tyrion. I don't think the fans could take losing both Dany AND Tyrion though, so I think she'll survive. And if she survives, she'll rule.

I could see leaving Dany and Jon alive to get married and leave the door open for another series where they are somehow unable to stop themselves from repeating the patterns of Jaime and Cersei, as that incestuous union seems to be the "original sin" of this story. That would fit the moral ambiguity that is the gimmick of these books.

[Martina]

That's true. She is his Aunt.

[Martina]

Why does Varys have to die? He so deserves a reward. He's been right a number of times when most of the characters get most things wrong. Plus he's worked so hard for a just Kingdom. If we end up with that, he ought to share in the outcome. I love him. I loved that exchange when he asked Tyrion why he makes eunich jokes when he is offended by dwarf jokes. So anachronistic, but so funny.

[dark_crystal]

Why does Varys have to die? He so deserves a reward. He's been right a number of times when most of the characters get most things wrong. Plus he's worked so hard for a just Kingdom. If we end up with that, he ought to share in the outcome. I love him. I loved that exchange when he asked Tyrion why he makes eunich jokes when he is offended by dwarf jokes. So anachronistic, but so funny.

I just think it would be very on-brand for George R.R. Martin.

The thing that makes the series so addictive is that anybody can die. When they killed Sansa's puppy in episode two they sent the message that nobody is safe no matter how innocent or virtuous. I think only the barest handful of "good" characters will survive.

GRRM will only save minimum amount possible, just enough to still have a semi-catharsis at the end, which catharsis will nevertheless be heavily steeped in irony and martyrdom.

[hagster]

I love this thread! I can't be definitive on my Cersei prediction (mostly because I love the uncertainty of all possibilities) but I think it will be Jaime or The Mountain; I'm not ruling out Sansa though. Cersei's ordered Jaime to be killed if he returns and I don't know why Sansa would leave Winterfell to travel south but there has been much in this series I didn't see coming. What the hell is The Mountain now anyway, a zombie? I don't trust his blind allegiance to Cersei's safety.

I think Varys will live to see the final outcome, but I do think Jon will kill Daenarys when she flips into the justice-driven madness that I think is her fate. Will Jon survive? I can see him dying once he's fulfilled his purpose of being brought back to life by saving the kingdoms from Dany. If this were to happen, who would take the throne? I don't know! Tyrion? I don't see Gendry sitting there. Sansa? No idea how!

After the Battle of Winterfell, I question the GoT philosophy that any big name can die. Cersei must and I believe Daenarys will, but to wipe out the majority of the cast with just 3 episodes to go would be overwhelming unimaginable to me. That being said, I've read that there's an episode still to come that's even bigger than the one we just saw. I love this show!!

[Martina]

I heard that George RR Martin's wife threatened to divorce him if Arya dies.

[Martina]

What the hell is The Mountain now anyway, a zombie? I don't trust his blind allegiance to Cersei's safety.


There's got to be another throwdown between The Mountain and The Hound. Just has to be.

[dark_crystal]

After the Battle of Winterfell, I question the GoT philosophy that any big name can die.

Good point. I expected more deaths from Battle of Winterfell, and i expected at least one of the "big eight" (Dany, Jon/Sansa/Arya/Bran, Jaime/Tyrion/Cersei) to die. They did not and this was off-brand IMO

[dark_crystal]

I love this thread! I can't be definitive on my Cersei prediction (mostly because I love the uncertainty of all possibilities) but I think it will be Jaime or The Mountain; I'm not ruling out Sansa though. Cersei's ordered Jaime to be killed if he returns and I don't know why Sansa would leave Winterfell to travel south but there has been much in this series I didn't see coming. What the hell is The Mountain now anyway, a zombie? I don't trust his blind allegiance to Cersei's safety.

I think Varys will live to see the final outcome, but I do think Jon will kill Daenarys when she flips into the justice-driven madness that I think is her fate. Will Jon survive? I can see him dying once he's fulfilled his purpose of being brought back to life by saving the kingdoms from Dany. If this were to happen, who would take the throne?

Dany gotta live long enough to birth Jon's baby

[Gemme]

I think Tyrion will survive. In the books, there is a sense that he is the main character, in my reading. I think he will be the one we see walking off into the sunset in the last scene, possibly with wife Sansa. Maybe breaking the fourth wall or speaking in voiceover to provide a final frame around everything that has happened

I would not be surprised if Arya dies. She has made her life about vengeance and there would be no place for that spirit in the peacetime world that should be the end result of all this struggle.

Other survival predictions (since we're here)...

Survives:

Tyrion
Sansa
Jon
Bronn
Sam


Dies:

Dany
Arya
Jaime
Cersei
Brienne
Bran
Davos
The Hound
Varys


Ohhhh, I hope I hope I hope you are wrong. I adore Arya. She's my favorite character and the one I feel has made the most growth throughout the series.


I heard that George RR Martin's wife threatened to divorce him if Arya dies.

If that's true, I like that woman.

[Martina]

If that's true, I like that woman.
http://mentalfloss.com/article/572305/game-of-thrones-george-rr-martin-wife-will-leave-if-stark-sisters-die

[BullDog]

I have read all 5 of the A Song of Ice and Fire books that Martin has published so far and none of these plot twists sound even remotely familiar to me. Are they based on the next two books that are supposed to come out (which of course have been delayed by many years) or just stuff the tv producers are making up? I haven't seen the TV series at all but I'm just curious how much it is veering away from the books. Sorry if this is a derail to the thread. I'm just curious.

[dark_crystal]

I have read all 5 of the A Song of Ice and Fire books that Martin has published so far and none of these plot twists sound even remotely familiar to me. Are they based on the next two books that are supposed to come out (which of course have been delayed by many years) or just stuff the tv producers are making up? I haven't seen the TV series at all but I'm just curious how much it is veering away from the books. Sorry if this is a derail to the thread. I'm just curious.

They used up all of the material in the novels at least two seasons ago. Since then they have been making stuff up, under the supervision and with the guidance of GRRM.

Theoretically the two upcoming books will follow the series instead of vice-versa. Although i think GRRM has reserved the right to diverge if he wants.

[BullDog]

I hope Martin doesn't let a TV show dictate his books, lol! But thanks for the info Dark Crystal. I wish Martin wasn't so slow but I did like the first few books a lot better than the later ones.

[Breathless]

After tonight's episode, I believe that this is what the hound is up to heading back to King's Landing. Good has to win, and I think the Hound is deep down, good.
I also think that however Cersei dies, I think it will be an ambush of sorts with multiple hands involved. She is far too wise for anything less, in my opinion. Cijs… I am really kinda pissed at how Brie was treated, my heart shattered for her. There's got to be another throwdown between The Mountain and The Hound. Just has to be.

[Martina]

Yeah, I'm disappointed in Jaime. And in Jon and Sansa and Varys and Bronn. Jon and Sansa both broke their words. And how stupid is Jon?

Also sorta sad to see Arya turn away from happiness in the expectation of dying. I did like the scene with her and the Hound.

Fucking hated to see one of the dragons go.

Sad episode.

[Martina]

Wow. Well, I guess the question now is who will kill Daenerys.

Goodbye, Jaime, Varys, The Hound.

I thought the episode was really well done.

[kittygrrl]

i'm just not sure i liked the episode last night..I thought Daenerys behaved badly..although i loved seeing the dragon, incinerating children was unnecessary cruelty..but that is Daenerys fault not the dragon's. I can see the writing on the wall..the last dragon will probably have to be killed because he does not fit in a tame world..Jamie trying to save Cersei, also disappointing..she did not deserve it..even though they both die in the end but then life is often filled with regret & disappointment so in retrospect chillingly realistic, Jamie's brother..not sure how i feel about him..he seems to be fine betraying Daenerys for his truly evil sister, excusing her behavior because she loved her children? Not good enough. Encouraging Jamie who was trying to redeem his life to run off with the monster behind most of Jamie's evil
/ Bewildering..i can't follow his reasoning. Yes brother, it's because of you i'm alive therefore i want you to run off with my truly evil sister who wanted me dead? Ridiculous, this isn't wise or kind, it's stupid. also...
There is no way Jon didn't know his sisters would ever keep such a secret. Jon always makes a wrong call with faulty reasoning..is this on purpose? He doesn't strike me as being a good leader overall..yes he is honest and brave, but is not wise. Which means if he ascends to the throne, he will not be there long. This is why i think in Daenerys dream long ago the throne room was empty and the roof was caved in...who should sit on the throne? his sister Ayra.

[Gemme]

I agree that Arya would be an excellent leader. I'm so disappointed that after 8 seasons of learning how to be a decent human being, Jaime came full circle just to veer back to stupidity and Cersei. Daenerys has completed her journey in becoming a tyrant. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. I'm disappointed in her as well. I think Jon is finally seeing Daenerys now. With a couple episodes left, there's time for him to come around and his family to take over the kingdoms.

[Martina]

There's only one more episode. They've got a lot to do. One cast member said last night's episode was the high point of the season. It was amazing in terms of its depiction of warfare. You could substitute bombs for dragonfire and imagine the horrors of Dresden or Beirut or Sarajevo. I am not sure I've ever seen anything like that on film.

Just re characters, the scene between Tyrion and Jaime was so touching. Loved it. The Clegane Bowl didn't disappoint.

I know people are upset about the boring end to Cercei. I didn't care when the time came. They had to go some way.

People are also upset about Danaerys' Mad Queen transition being so fast. Some folks feel turning her character at all was anti-feminist. But she represents the satrap kind of ruler. I didn't find it surprising that that was her default.

So, now who will kill her? It's setting us up to believe Arya. The white horse seemed kinda mystical.

If we are left with Jon or Sansa on the throne or some federation of houses not ruled by a king, I will be sad that Varys will not be there to see it.

I kinda agree with Danaerys that Tyrion needs to start questioning his judgement. Of course, he won't be her Hand. I assume he'll be on the run North to Sansa and whoever else will oppose Danaerys. Wonder if he and Sansa will end up together? I kind of doubt it.

I wonder if there is any more coming from Bran. If not, ????

Bye, Jaime. *Sniffle*

Poor Jon. Greek Tragedy kind of spot he's in.

[dark_crystal]

i think Jaime came to king's landing to do exactly what he did-- comfort Cersei as she/they died. He knew he didn't have to kill her-- that someone was going to have to and all he had to do was let it happen. But, he did not like to think of her dying alone.

That was his sister and the mother of his children, who are all dead. His best friend from birth. He knew she was evil and she had to go but he could not stand her going through that alone.

Also, i think he knew he himself belonged to the past era, and should die when it did. He was the reason Robert became king, and Cersei's death represented the end of that reign, and he felt that dying alongside Cersei would be appropriate.

My prediction for next week is that the third dragon dies, and possibly Dany, and possibly Jon. Dany seems tainted, but we may be told that this is the dragon's fault. Maybe we'll find out that the dragons made the Targaryens crazy. Maybe the writers will set it up that by killing the dragon, Dany could be redeemed.

I don't think Jon will take the throne bc that would be boring and he is boring.

I think Tyrion could end up in charge, as i have said, bc i see him as the main character, and he has been the most consistently ethical and compassionate.

And isn't he kind of technically the King now? Him or Gendry are technically the king until Westeros formally surrenders to Dany, which isn't going to happen. If Gendry dies, the Lannisters are still the ruling family. If Tyrion takes up the Lannister banner against Dany, he represents a cleansed house which maybe deserves to rule?

OR Gendry, Jon, Tyrion, and Dany all die and Sansa takes the throne as a Lannister, by virtue of her marriage to Tyrion. That would be super ironic in a very appropriate way.

If i were writing i would bring the Night King back OR have the Lord of Light show up.

Because, like, shouldn't everyone be converting to Melisandre and Beric Dondarrion's religion? R'hllor, also known as the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow, has done a LOT-- resurrecting Jon and Dondarrion, killing Renly, killing Shireen, resurrecting Catelyn.

He is the only deity besides Bran & co. that is manifesting real miracles where everyone sees them. He was fighting the Night King from way back. Sure, the Shireen thing was bad, but that was Melisandre failing to understand she was looking for Jon.

Should there be a showdown between R'hllor, the Night King, and the three-eyed raven? Catelyn is still out there, with Nymeria. Both of them need to show up next week, too.

There's a metaphysical storyline that needs to be wrapped up. This has to be about more than who sits a throne. There is a forces of evil vs forces of good situation and we don't know which one R'hllor is. A lot of what has happened is R'hllor's doing.

So maybe someone has to confront R'hllor. Obviously Bran, and who is R'hllor's remaining representative? His mom!!

[kittygrrl]

The god of Light..how fitting and ironic...men have always used "a" god as an excuse to do evil and persuade others it is necessary and good..the desire to erase freedom and subjugate has always been the weakness of the men in this world..and this story is just one of many played out sadly on the screen and in this world and even in our dreams..we keep doing the same things and expecting a different result and maybe this story is the author's way of trying to make us see, who we are and that it doesn't matter if we think we have a better way if we use the same tools to try getting it..i would like to believe that Arya finally understands this..she wanted to become a faceless man to help her in her revenge..but in the process of finally avenging some of the wrongs done to her family realizes in the end that revenge is never sweet..it is just another face of evil disguised as something worthy and right. At least, I would enjoy seeing one person in this whole story understand wickedness done, for whatever reason, will never end in happiness ... I think the ending will be messy, because this life is messy and a happy ending is not possible and would not be appreciated by the audience ...

[Gemme]

i think Jaime came to king's landing to do exactly what he did-- comfort Cersei as she/they died. He knew he didn't have to kill her-- that someone was going to have to and all he had to do was let it happen. But, he did not like to think of her dying alone.

That was his sister and the mother of his children, who are all dead. His best friend from birth. He knew she was evil and she had to go but he could not stand her going through that alone.

Also, i think he knew he himself belonged to the past era, and should die when it did. He was the reason Robert became king, and Cersei's death represented the end of that reign, and he felt that dying alongside Cersei would be appropriate.



I didn't think of it this way. I like this better but still feel like kicking him in the nuts for hurting Brienne.

[kittygrrl]

Apparently there is a rumor that Jon kills her in the throne room in front of the iron throne, drogo breaks the roof to take her out of there ...if so this proves my point, Jon is no better then she is...he is doomed.

[charley]

Well, looks like none of the main predictions of witches et al and other theories came true... who knew?

Quite the epic end to Cersei and Jaime, the Hound, and Varys, and King's Landing. (Shame about Varys, considering he was the only one who knew what Danaerys was really like.) Never liked Jaime - not since he pushed the kid out of the tower.

Danaerys destroys all. None of the remaining heroes will be happy about that - quite the wake-up shock for all of them. But, they all hitched their dreams on Danaerys' leadership; of course, sacrificing integrity for power. Gee, it's just like the real world (lol). Oh, well. Am quite speechless. At least, Arya survived. She was always my favourite, and there she goes - riding off into the ... on the white horse.

[Martina]

The only good reason to have Catelyn Stark back is to kill her again. Maybe Jon will though, poor guy, he has enough kin complications.

I'm trying to think if I care who's on the throne. I'm not sure I do as long as it's not Dany.

Sansa has been presented as a strong administrator who sees through treachery and faces the truth. I think the fact that she never fell for Dany's line makes her the front runner. Sansa is a rock compared to Jon and Tyrion.

I hope all that mystical shit doesn't happen cause I don't care about it. What makes a good ruler interests me. The Lord of Light . . . Yawn.

[Breathless]

I am not so convinced that Cersie is dead. Trapped for a minute, maybe... Jamie dead.. okay, that I can believe since he went in there with possible serious injuries. It just couldn't have been that easy. The Hound-- fantastic!! I applaud him taking his power back.

I see Danaerys, killing or attempting to kill Tyrion. She did say that his next betrayal would be his last, and we all know that the guards had to have told her about Jamie's escape the night before during Tyrion's visit. I think Arya added Danaerys to her list of who must die when she saw the child she was trying to save burned to death in her mothers arms. Arya has murdered people for lesser crimes. I don't see Jon saving Danaerys, aunt or not, his loyalities are still Stark and his love for peace. I still think that Tyrion is going to kill his not really dead sister.
I don't know.. that's my thoughts.

[dark_crystal]

The only good reason to have Catelyn Stark back is to kill her again. Maybe Jon will though, poor guy, he has enough kin complications.

I'm trying to think if I care who's on the throne. I'm not sure I do as long as it's not Dany.

Sansa has been presented as a strong administrator who sees through treachery and faces the truth. I think the fact that she never fell for Dany's line makes her the front runner. Sansa is a rock compared to Jon and Tyrion.

I hope all that mystical shit doesn't happen cause I don't care about it. What makes a good ruler interests me. The Lord of Light . . . Yawn.

I was reminded yesterday that Catelyn Stark was not resurrected in the TV version? (The question mark is bc i have not confirmed this)

[kittygrrl]

I was reminded yesterday that Catelyn Stark was not resurrected in the TV version? (The question mark is bc i have not confirmed this)

It's true. It was decided not to include this part of the book..not sure of the reason...she was mean to him..and never fair and took out her disappoint for husband's mistake on an innocent child..albeit she was not told the true story notwithstanding..she was not a good mother, kind of a nightmare really...the red wedding was horrific ..i stopped watching GOT for a while.

[Martina]

Yeah, she's kind of a classic portrayal of a mother you love to hate. And that's on GRRM. He created some amazing female characters, but there is sexism there as well. That said, I really disliked Catelyn. Not as much as internet boys, but she is good as the over intense joyless but ineffective mother. So long suffering and grit your teeth angry. And of course she fucks up. The mother who fails to protect. She was designed to be hated. Hard not to even when you realize that.

[dark_crystal]

Dany gotta live long enough to birth Jon's baby

Dany could survive tomorrow night by announcing her pregnancy

[kittygrrl]

Dany could survive tomorrow night by announcing her pregnancy

yes..but this dark tale will not have a happy ending..i think that is the whole point of his books..we are doomed..if not, i would love it however i don't think so..

[Gemme]

Dany could survive tomorrow night by announcing her pregnancy

Thanks to her, there's not many people left to hear it.

:blink:

[charley]

I really liked the ending... :)

[Gemme]

I think everyone is where they should be. Good job!

[Martina]

I want to be a fly on the wall at future council meetings. What a crew!

I was bummed at Jon's exile till I saw them leaving for what I assume is a new life beyond the wall. His talents won't be wasted. And he has Tormund and Ghost. Also, there was that sprig of green making you think Winter may be over.

Wonder why Drogon didn't roast Jon Snow? Because he's a Targaryen?

Arya's ending was fine. I wanted to slap Sansa, but she will be a good Queen of the North.

The Unsullied are going to Naath to protect Missandei's people from slavers and enjoy some peace, I assume. They definitely need to chill, so good ending.

They have been trying to make Bran a little more human, so I think he's not the worst choice for King, especially with the all too human Tyrion as Hand.

[dark_crystal]

My prediction for next week is that the third dragon dies, and possibly Dany, and possibly Jon. Dany seems tainted, but we may be told that this is the dragon's fault. Maybe we'll find out that the dragons made the Targaryens crazy. Maybe the writers will set it up that by killing the dragon, Dany could be redeemed.

I don't think Jon will take the throne bc that would be boring and he is boring.

I think Tyrion could end up in charge, as i have said, bc i see him as the main character, and he has been the most consistently ethical and compassionate.

And isn't he kind of technically the King now? Him or Gendry are technically the king until Westeros formally surrenders to Dany, which isn't going to happen. If Gendry dies, the Lannisters are still the ruling family. If Tyrion takes up the Lannister banner against Dany, he represents a cleansed house which maybe deserves to rule?

OR Gendry, Jon, Tyrion, and Dany all die and Sansa takes the throne as a Lannister, by virtue of her marriage to Tyrion. That would be super ironic in a very appropriate way.

If i were writing i would bring the Night King back OR have the Lord of Light show up.

Because, like, shouldn't everyone be converting to Melisandre and Beric Dondarrion's religion? R'hllor, also known as the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow, has done a LOT-- resurrecting Jon and Dondarrion, killing Renly, killing Shireen, resurrecting Catelyn.

He is the only deity besides Bran & co. that is manifesting real miracles where everyone sees them. He was fighting the Night King from way back. Sure, the Shireen thing was bad, but that was Melisandre failing to understand she was looking for Jon.

Should there be a showdown between R'hllor, the Night King, and the three-eyed raven? Catelyn is still out there, with Nymeria. Both of them need to show up next week, too.

There's a metaphysical storyline that needs to be wrapped up. This has to be about more than who sits a throne. There is a forces of evil vs forces of good situation and we don't know which one R'hllor is. A lot of what has happened is R'hllor's doing.

So maybe someone has to confront R'hllor. Obviously Bran, and who is R'hllor's remaining representative? His mom!!

Ok, i wasn't THAT wrong.

[Gemme]

Wonder why Drogon didn't roast Jon Snow? Because he's a Targaryen?


He took his grief out on the throne and I think that's because he understood that it was that obsession that ultimately led to Danaerys' death.

Maybe he felt Jon's grief.

I'm glad that they showed he was more than just a giant flying flame thrower and had some cognitive thought processes.

[dark_crystal]

This was a good article

(Scientific American) The Real Reason Fans Hate the Last Season of Game of Thrones-- It's not just bad storytelling—it’s because the storytelling style changed from sociological to psychological, By Zeynep Tufekci (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/?redirect=1)
The show did indeed take a turn for the worse, but the reasons for that downturn goes way deeper than the usual suspects that have been identified (new and inferior writers, shortened season, too many plot holes). It’s not that these are incorrect, but they’re just superficial shifts. In fact, the souring of Game of Thrones exposes a fundamental shortcoming of our storytelling culture in general: we don’t really know how to tell sociological stories.

At its best, GOT was a beast as rare as a friendly dragon in King’s Landing: it was sociological and institutional storytelling in a medium dominated by the psychological and the individual. This structural storytelling era of the show lasted through the seasons when it was based on the novels by George R. R. Martin, who seemed to specialize in having characters evolve in response to the broader institutional settings, incentives and norms that surround them.

After the show ran ahead of the novels, however, it was taken over by powerful Hollywood showrunners David Benioff and D. B. Weiss. Some fans and critics have been assuming that the duo changed the narrative to fit Hollywood tropes or to speed things up, but that’s unlikely. In fact, they probably stuck to the narrative points that were given to them, if only in outline form, by the original author. What they did is something different, but in many ways more fundamental: Benioff and Weiss steer the narrative lane away from the sociological and shifted to the psychological. That’s the main, and often only, way Hollywood and most television writers tell stories.

[snip]

The initial fan interest and ensuing loyalty wasn’t just about the brilliant acting and superb cinematography, sound, editing and directing. None of those are that unique to GOT, and all of them remain excellent through this otherwise terrible last season.

One clue is clearly the show’s willingness to kill off major characters, early and often, without losing the thread of the story. TV shows that travel in the psychological lane rarely do that because they depend on viewers identifying with the characters and becoming invested in them to carry the story, rather than looking at the bigger picture of the society, institutions and norms that we interact with and which shape us. They can’t just kill major characters because those are the key tools with which they’re building the story and using as hooks to hold viewers.

In contrast, Game of Thrones killed Ned Stark abruptly at the end of the first season, after building the whole season and, by implication, the entire series around him. The second season developed a replacement Stark heir, which appeared like a more traditional continuation of the narrative. The third season, however, had him and his pregnant wife murdered in a particularly bloody way. And so it went. The story moved on; many characters did not.

The appeal of a show that routinely kills major characters signals a different kind of storytelling, where a single charismatic and/or powerful individual, along with his or her internal dynamics, doesn’t carry the whole narrative and explanatory burden. Given the dearth of such narratives in fiction and in TV, this approach clearly resonated with a large fan base that latched on to the show.

In sociological storytelling, the characters have personal stories and agency, of course, but those are also greatly shaped by institutions and events around them. The incentives for characters’ behavior come noticeably from these external forces, too, and even strongly influence their inner life.

[snip]

When someone wrongs us, we tend to think they are evil, misguided or selfish: a personalized explanation. But when we misbehave, we are better at recognizing the external pressures on us that shape our actions: a situational understanding. If you snap at a coworker, for example, you may rationalize your behavior by remembering that you had difficulty sleeping last night and had financial struggles this month. You’re not evil, just stressed! The coworker who snaps at you, however, is more likely to be interpreted as a jerk, without going through the same kind of rationalization. This is convenient for our peace of mind, and fits with our domain of knowledge, too. We know what pressures us, but not necessarily others.

That tension between internal stories and desires, psychology and external pressures, institutions, norms and events was exactly what Game of Thrones showed us for many of its characters, creating rich tapestries of psychology but also behavior that was neither saintly nor fully evil at any one point. It was something more than that: you could understand why even the characters undertaking evil acts were doing what they did, how their good intentions got subverted, and how incentives structured behavior. The complexity made it much richer than a simplistic morality tale, where unadulterated good fights with evil.

The hallmark of sociological storytelling is if it can encourage us to put ourselves in the place of any character, not just the main hero/heroine, and imagine ourselves making similar choices. “Yeah, I can see myself doing that under such circumstances” is a way into a broader, deeper understanding. It’s not just empathy: we of course empathize with victims and good people, not with evildoers.

But if we can better understand how and why characters make their choices, we can also think about how to structure our world that encourages better choices for everyone.

[dark_crystal]

I want to be a fly on the wall at future council meetings. What a crew!

I was bummed at Jon's exile till I saw them leaving for what I assume is a new life beyond the wall. His talents won't be wasted. And he has Tormund and Ghost. Also, there was that sprig of green making you think Winter may be over.

Wonder why Drogon didn't roast Jon Snow? Because he's a Targaryen?

Arya's ending was fine. I wanted to slap Sansa, but she will be a good Queen of the North.

The Unsullied are going to Naath to protect Missandei's people from slavers and enjoy some peace, I assume. They definitely need to chill, so good ending.

They have been trying to make Bran a little more human, so I think he's not the worst choice for King, especially with the all too human Tyrion as Hand.

"They need to chill" :superfunny:

People are asking "what was the point of making Jon a Targaryen" and i think that was it. No one else could have gotten past Drogon or survived Drogon's grief.

Crowning Bran was a good ending to the TV series. I hope GRRM goes another route.

[charley]

I can't seem to remove the smile off my face at how it all ends for GOT - Bran, Sansa, Arya, and Jon all survived. Martin was brilliant tying it all up like that. And, I liked that Danaerys had to be killed off - after destroying Cersei, only to become another tyrant herself. I also liked that Bran was elected. And, Sansa crowned Queen of her own kingdom - she was radiant in her happiness. And, there was a beaming Arya sailing off to adventure and discovery. Jon moving off with his direwolf, Ghost, and all the Wildings for a new life. And, Tyrion even survived to become Hand and is left dealing with the politics of the Council - absolutely marvellous - I had to chuckle at Tyrion's fate.

I think that with some of the negativity of those who didn't like how the 8th season went had to do with people not wanting GOT to ever end. But, Martin wrote it in a way that we all know that all their lives will carry on.

[kittygrrl]

the only thing that worked for me in this ending is that dracarys survived...Jon killing Danny did not make sense to me..you dont kill someone you truly love..not on purpose..it is a ruined ideal to believe killing one to save thousands is the greater good...killing never makes things right and i resent the writers for perpetuating this lie

[Lyte]

My feelings are mixed … I liked the first 10 mins and the last 15 minutes of the episode.

Jon was the only one who could get close enough to kill Dani - agreed

Since when did the dragons have feelings re: the iron throne - weird

Too much pontificating from Tyrion - tedious

[Gemme]

the only thing that worked for me in this ending is that dracarys survived...Jon killing Danny did not make sense to me..you dont kill someone you truly love..not on purpose..it is a ruined ideal to believe killing one to save thousands is the greater good...killing never makes things right and i resent the writers for perpetuating this lie

I respectfully disagree. I believe one who purposefully burns thousands of children and innocent people alive should die, regardless of who or what they are and who they love or who loves them. Dany turned bad, like spoiled milk. Can't have that mentality going into a more civilized, peaceful time.

Hey, did anyone see the water bottles? lol I can't decide if the crew was having fun with us or was getting lazy.

[kittygrrl]

I respectfully disagree. I believe one who purposefully burns thousands of children and innocent people alive should die, regardless of who or what they are and who they love or who loves them. Dany turned bad, like spoiled milk. Can't have that mentality going into a more civilized, peaceful time.

Hey, did anyone see the water bottles? lol I can't decide if the crew was having fun with us or was getting lazy.

i'm not implying it shouldn't be dealt with..but killing will never give a lasting peace to a people/ country that uses it as a means to an end. It defies logic. Violence begets violence. Peace under such circumstances will never last.

[kittygrrl]

i've been reading about where dracarys could have taken danny.. it won't come to fruition since the series has ended but i'm feeling a bit better..

[Gemme]

i'm not implying it shouldn't be dealt with..but killing will never give a lasting peace to a people/ country that uses it as a means to an end. It defies logic. Violence begets violence. Peace under such circumstances will never last.

I understand your point but you have to take the setting into consideration. In those times, it was far more likely to kill than to imprison. Also, how would the story work with Dany not dead? It had to happen for the storyline.

i've been reading about where dracarys could have taken danny.. it won't come to fruition since the series has ended but i'm feeling a bit better..

I've also been reading what different folks think happened afterwards with Drogon and it's super interesting. I'm tempted to go back and read the books as there's a lot of in between that didn't make it onto the show.

[kittygrrl]

I understand your point but you have to take the setting into consideration. In those times, it was far more likely to kill than to imprison. Also, how would the story work with Dany not dead? It had to happen for the storyline.


A storyline written by an exclusive male writing team and a male director. No women were involved for the last season..it was a given she would die.. was it necessary? Maybe, but this story line was poorly written..they could have written a believable plot of a warrior queen with a heart that slowly goes mad but instead they make her nuts in 6 episodes..it's bad writing..There were so many bad scenes and the reasons behind them for the last season, I don't even know where to start and it's probably at this point, not very relevant..but i don't agree her death was necessary. This storyline was awful..even i could have written a better ending....now back to my bad dream

[charley]

A storyline written by an exclusive male writing team and a male director. No women were involved for the last season..it was a given she would die.. was it necessary? Maybe, but this story line was poorly written..they could have written a believable plot of a warrior queen with a heart that slowly goes mad but instead they make her nuts in 6 episodes..it's bad writing..There were so many bad scenes and the reasons behind them for the last season, I don't even know where to start and it's probably at this point, not very relevant..but i don't agree her death was necessary. This storyline was awful..even i could have written a better ending....now back to my bad dream

Martin wrote the story - the whole story; it all came out of his head, his thoughts. In his mind, the Buddha was not written into the story. It is a high fantasy, created by his thought where, in his mind, all the tyrants die. When I began watching GOT, like any story, I used the old rule of thumb of "Once upon a time..." and I suspended belief, and just went with it. It is one of the fables of all stories, whether written by women or men, that because the brain requires security, will "believe" that the battles that are fought are justified, even that battles in themselves are the way life works - and all the illusions perpetrated by the brain that there must always be a fight or flight response, that there must be effort, etc. etc. etc. Personally, I do not believe that, I do not buy into that. From what I understand of life, thought itself cannot resolve anything at all, because thought itself is limited. What one knows in terms of thought can never be a final truth; thought is always adding to itself. Knowledge in itself is always imperfect.

But, in the context of a film, a fantasy, a drama, I do understand that any brain [which, of course, is using thought] will try to resolve conflict by a cathartic end. I think that it is important not to confuse reality (or truth) with what is fabricated by the brain by an artist. In that sense, I can appreciate what Martin wrote for what it was, not for what I would like it to be. In that sense, I accept works of art for what they are. Insofar as I am concerned, what Martin wrote was for entertainment, for pleasure; it was not an essay on truth or reality. It was just for fun.

[kittygrrl]

fyi-maybe i'm weird, but i didn't get any entertainment or fun out of watching Danny's death and for the record although Danny will probably die in the books (i've heard) no doubt the author will handle it with a great deal more finesse, thought and detail then the writers of this last season..it's an opinion, and not written in stone..shrug