Law and Order: SVU with Special Guest Kathy Griffin as lesbian

[Linus]

A sneak peak at next week's show. I think a lot of people have the hots of Olivia and I'll be curious to see what Kathy's character is all about.


YouTube- SVU Sneak Peek Kathy Griffin and Mariska Hargitay Kiss

[T D]

I don't think I like the way that clip ended, but interesting for sure.

There's also a lesbian on Desperate Housewives now. She's an ex stripper/exotic dancer/lap dancer. I found this especially interesting because I've known a number of lesbians who were or are into this same profession. I've never quite understood how that happens, but I know for sure that it does.

We really are in every walk of life

[suebee]

I don't think I like the way that clip ended, but interesting for sure.




I'm hoping the fact that they included something so blatently homophobic is a sign that Olivia will coming over to our side. :awww:

[Soft*Silver]

WOW!!! Talk about a fantasy for us!

[Andrew, Jr.]

I really enjoy Law & Order: SVU so I am really looking forward to this show. I just hope that Kathy Griffin does us proud.

[Rook]

It's actually rather simple, as an ex told me...
They can stare, stuff the green in g-string, but no Touchy...not even for lapdance, if the client touches, the Dance is over{at least, in the place she was in}...
Bouncers make sure the rules are followed...
Once she gets dressed, walks out the doors, she leaves the Job where it belongs.
It can be rough, but Trust is tantamount for things to work with a Stripping girl...

Back to SVU, looking forward to it, my relatives often ask why do I watch it if some episodes can be Triggering..
I just shrug and tell them it's kind of therapeutic...

{btw, if Olivia comes "our" way, more reason to watch finally heh}
:mohawk:

[Linus]

I don't think I like the way that clip ended, but interesting for sure.

There's also a lesbian on Desperate Housewives now. She's an ex stripper/exotic dancer/lap dancer. I found this especially interesting because I've known a number of lesbians who were or are into this same profession. I've never quite understood how that happens, but I know for sure that it does.

We really are in every walk of life


Ya but I think we're only seeing part of it and I suspect, when I think of the character (a straight character), it was probably a "knee-jerk" reaction. I'm hoping that she'll redeem herself later in the episode.

[Greyson]

I have never watched Law and Order. I did hear about the upcoming Lesbian character recently on a T.V. interview with Kathy Griffin.

I enjoy Kathy Griffins stand up routines. I am holding out hope that the lesbian character she is to portray will not be characterized as the mentally ill, wanton evil lesbian. At first glance of this clip, things don't look too good.

[Luckydwg07]

I can hear the crew laughing in the back ground..or am I hearing things. When she said ellen,joan crawford, calmity jane ..(laughter) balance check book throw in suszie orman (laughter)
I'm sure there were alot of laughs with her on the set

[AtLast]

I have never watched Law and Order. I did hear about the upcoming Lesbian character recently on a T.V. interview with Kathy Griffin.

I enjoy Kathy Griffins stand up routines. I am holding out hope that the lesbian character she is to portray will not be characterized as the mentally ill, wanton evil lesbian. At first glance of this clip, things don't look too good.

Ugh, me too!


I don't think I like the way that clip ended, but interesting for sure.

There's also a lesbian on Desperate Housewives now. She's an ex stripper/exotic dancer/lap dancer. I found this especially interesting because I've known a number of lesbians who were or are into this same profession. I've never quite understood how that happens, but I know for sure that it does.

We really are in every walk of life


[I]I]

Interesting.. I have too known a couple as well. I have wondered the same thing. But, seems that a lot of women do the stripper/exotic dancer thing while young to just make some good money (many college students). So, why wouldn't a lesbian when i really think about it. These dancers are really not prostitutes. So, like the other poster said, the whole sex with men (or just sex, period) thing isn't a factor.

[Dylan]

I don't like when straights play queers

Didn't like it in 'Milk', didn't like it on 'Will and Grace', didn't like it on that lesbian Showtime show, didn't like it on that gay Showtime show, and it appears, I won't like it here either.

There's plenty of queers to go around (oh mah lord, even into movies and television!)

It's insulting and privileged and homophobic


I'm Also Bothered By Law And Order SVU...But That's Another Story,
Dylan...crabby about the whole thing

[Cyclopea]

Well....there's a whole lotta buzz about Maristra Harkitray being a big ole closet case. A later-even-than-Jodi coming out situation. But I don't really see it.
What I see is a couple of hets putting on the lezface cluelessly for a bunch of clueless non-lesbians. What is it about lesbianism that makes non-lesbians feel so confident about portraying us, embodying us, exploiting us, co-opting us?

Oh right. The woman thing.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/jacqui.russell/SGPyw3V2WfI/AAAAAAAAAFc/4tSqnMRRzYI/%5BUNSET%5D.jpg

[SassyLeo]

I don't like when straights play queers

Didn't like it in 'Milk', didn't like it on 'Will and Grace', didn't like it on that lesbian Showtime show, didn't like it on that gay Showtime show, and it appears, I won't like it here either.

There's plenty of queers to go around (oh mah lord, even into movies and television!)

It's insulting and privileged and homophobic


I'm Also Bothered By Law And Order SVU...But That's Another Story,
Dylan...crabby about the whole thing


Bummer you couldn't appreciate how fucking amazing Sean Penn was in Milk.

[Dylan]

Bummer you couldn't appreciate how fucking amazing Sean Penn was in Milk.

I thought he did a great job

However, I don't like when straights play queer. There's plenty of queers who can act...yet here's a straight guy winning an academy award for playing queer. It's insulting to queers. All of the major actors in that movie were straight, and that's bothersome to me.


Dylan

[Write14u]

Hmmm, I tend to get my L&O: SVU on re-runs, but I might have to check this one out live. I looooovvveee Mariska Hargitay. The only person I adore more on the TV screen is Melina Kanakaredes, who plays Stella on CSI:NY. (mmmm).

And just from that bit...wow, they're really setting it up as freaking Olivia out because her reaction doesn't seem typical of her character. (At least what it's showing in that little bit).

Dylan, what don't you like about this show? (Not the specific episode?)

[suebee]

[QUOTE=Cyclopea;58124]Well....there's a whole lotta buzz about Maristra Harkitray being a big ole closet case. A later-even-than-Jodi coming out situation. But I don't really see it.
What I see is a couple of hets putting on the lezface cluelessly for a bunch of clueless non-lesbians. What is it about lesbianism that makes non-lesbians feel so confident about portraying us, embodying us, exploiting us, co-opting us?

Oh right. The woman thing.

QUOTE]

They're called "actors". Because they act. Nobody here would criticize a gay actor for portraying a straight person. C'mon!

[Luckydwg07]

Well....there's a whole lotta buzz about Maristra Harkitray being a big ole closet case. A later-even-than-Jodi coming out situation. But I don't really see it.
What I see is a couple of hets putting on the lezface cluelessly for a bunch of clueless non-lesbians. What is it about lesbianism that makes non-lesbians feel so confident about portraying us, embodying us, exploiting us, co-opting us?

Oh right. The woman thing.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/jacqui.russell/SGPyw3V2WfI/AAAAAAAAAFc/4tSqnMRRzYI/%5BUNSET%5D.jpg

I think she is just a lovely being and a whole latta lesbians wish she was a lesbian. I agree with the lezface lets face it the producers say jump & the actors say how high its a ratings game $$$$ shock-value sells. But no matter we still get air time for better or worse

[Diavolo]

They're called "actors". Because they act. Nobody here would criticize a gay actor for portraying a straight person. C'mon!

Doogie Hoozer (can't think of the guy's real name) is in "How I met your mother" and that boy is gay and out. I'm 100% with you on this one. It's acting.

I think a lot of these shows explore this sort of stuff not for ratings as much as to explore it within the art. The Law and Order franchise does a little of both.

[Dylan]

Dylan, what don't you like about this show? (Not the specific episode?)

I'm a huge Law & Order fan, but I think L&OSVU perpetuates violence against women by desensitizing people to rape and violence against women. It's quite bothersome to me.


Dylan

[Rufusboi]

I thought he did a great job

However, I don't like when straights play queer. There's plenty of queers who can act...yet here's a straight guy winning an academy award for playing queer. It's insulting to queers. All of the major actors in that movie were straight, and that's bothersome to me.


Dylan

So what happens when queers play straights? David Hyde Pierce played a straight guy for years. Should he give up that part to a straight guy? Portia de Rossi plays straight parts? Should she refuse these? Jodie Foster? Vin Diesel? Neil Patrick Harris? Should they all refuse straight parts because they are gay?

I don't have a problem with straight people playing gay parts. It wasn't that long ago that straight people were scared to take gay roles because they were afraid of their careers. Famous straight actors taking on high profile gay parts, I think, helps all queers all over the world. Actors are no longer afraid to take on this role. Middle America gets their eyes opened a bit. You don't think Tom Hanks playing that role in Philadelphia helped us all lurch forward politically a few steps? And many of these actors use their time, money and position to support gay rights. I am in no way offended when any straight actor takes a queer role.

Consider this - there might be a lot of die hard Sean Penn fans who went to see Milk because he was in it. They came of the movies with an education about Milk and what he did. THe movie made Milk a person and it showed the long hard road of gay rights activism. Tom Hanks humanized AIDS. People saw that film. Saw Hanks in that film. And it changed many viewpoints about AIDS and the queer community.


Rufus

[Dylan]

They're called "actors". Because they act. Nobody here would criticize a gay actor for portraying a straight person. C'mon!

By having the dominant group portray the oppressed group by 'acting', a number of oppressed groups have been misportrayed throughout centuries.

It was done with women (men playing women, aka drag); it was done with Black people (black face); it's done with differently abled people all the time; and it's now the rage to do it with queers. It's another subtle form of privilege and oppression. It plays off of stereotypes and perpetuates a negative image. It also keeps 'real' queers oppressed, by telling real queers they're not 'good enough' to even play queer. So, now we have hets exploiting and making money off of the queer community even more.




Dylan

[Dylan]

So what happens when queers play straights? David Hyde Pierce played a straight guy for years. Should he give up that part to a straight guy? Portia de Rossi plays straight parts? Should she refuse these? Jodie Foster? Vin Diesel? Neil Patrick Harris? Should they all refuse straight parts because they are gay?

I don't have a problem with straight people playing gay parts. It wasn't that long ago that straight people were scared to take gay roles because they were afraid of their careers. Famous straight actors taking on high profile gay parts, I think, helps all queers all over the world. Actors are no longer afraid to take on this role. Middle America gets their eyes opened a bit. You don't think Tom Hanks playing that role in Philadelphia helped us all lurch forward politically a few steps? And many of these actors use their time, money and position to support gay rights. I am in no way offended when any straight actor takes a queer role.


Rufus

The power structure and oppression dynamics are not the same when queers play straight.


Dylan

[suebee]

By having the dominant group portray the oppressed group by 'acting', a number of oppressed groups have been misportrayed throughout centuries.

It was done with women (men playing women, aka drag); it was done with Black people (black face); it's done with differently abled people all the time; and it's now the rage to do it with queers. It's another subtle form of privilege and oppression. It plays off of stereotypes and perpetuates a negative image. It also keeps 'real' queers oppressed, by telling real queers they're not 'good enough' to even play queer. So, now we have hets exploiting and making money off of the queer community even more.




Dylan

Dylan, they are actors. They act. Inject political agenda into it if you want, but it just doesn't cut it. If Law and Order wants to turn a well-established, well-loved character into an openly gay person, then I'm all for it. It tells people that we're out there. Whether they KNOW they know queer people or not, we're out there, and we're in their lives. It tells them MUCH more than if they introduce another character that they DON'T already know, they DON'T already love, and shows them that our sexual orientation is but ONE aspect of who we are. It's an important aspect, but it makes ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE in how we do our jobs.

Now if you want to argue that an actor shouldn't be discriminated against BECAUSE he or she is gay, then that's a whole 'nother matter. But this thread is about an established character in one of the most popular shows on U.S. television possibly coming out as a lesbian. I fail to see how that's a bad thing, unless she grows a mullet and starts wearing Birkinstocks and insists that her squad car be only a Subaru or a Volvo.

End of mini :floatbee: rant.

[Write14u]

Dylan, I understand what you're saying, but to me, it makes more sense to get the message out (ie, make queers more visibile in positive ways ) -- regardless of with whom.

Do you think Milk would have been as good without someone as dynamic as Penn in that role? I can't think of a queer actor that could have done it that justice.

From that clip of Olivia, it looks like she has a bad reaction, and who knows if she will come out. I don't think she will, but Sue is right -- it will make more of a lasting impression on viewers if it's someone you already know rather than a one-show wonder that you don't invest yourself in. I also think regardless of whether Olivia comes out, I think her attitude will be less hostile because her character is not geared that way.

One example that sticks out for me was in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which had two lesbians on it. Willow was a main character from the inception and people went right along with it when she came out and started dating a woman. It meant more than if they had just dropped a dyke in there for a one-two espisode arc.
(On a side note: I would have rather seen the Buffy/Faith characters have at it. *grin* But that's just me having the hots for Eliza Dushku (Faith). )

[Martina]

(On a side note: I would have rather seen the Buffy/Faith characters have at it. *grin* But that's just me having the hots for Eliza Dushku (Faith). )

Faith was way hot. The bdsm Spike/Buffy dynamic was much hotter then the sweet lesbians cuddling on their lacy bed. So dull.

[suebee]

Something that occured to me after I posted: It would be more important in this situation IMO if there were a gay or lesbian writer than actor.

[Write14u]

Faith was way hot. The bdsm Spike/Buffy dynamic was much hotter then the sweet lesbians cuddling on their lacy bed. So dull.

I agree on both counts. But it was at least progress having two lesbians in prime time that weren't nutso.

[Miss Scarlett]

I don't watch Law & Order. The addition of Kathy Griffin will not change my mind - especially since I just cannot stand her. Never liked her, doubt I ever will.

[Rook]

It's kind of touchy to have a gay/lesbian portray a gay character on primetime...
Ask Ellen...
btw..

B.D. Wong portrays a gay Psychiatrist on Law & Order {Dr. Huang}...
If I understand his pvt life correctly..
He's openly gay in real-life

David Hyde Pierce came out Recently, in support related to Prop 8.. He portrayed Niles Crane on Frasier, a neurotic Hetero psychiatrist constantly the butt of jokes regarding his true sexuality...

Neil Patrick Harris JR, portrays a Promiscuous heterosexual Womanizer on "How I met your Mother"

Wanda Sykes recently came out, for the same reason as David, she's one of the couples that married before Prop 8 passed...

The list can keep growing...
But, I dont think that's the point...

Tom Hanks portrayed an AIDS-afflicted Lawyer.. Was he belittling the character? Nope..On the contrary.. He created a much more mainstream Awareness...

So did Hillary Swank as Brandon Teena

And Sean Penn as Harvey Milk

Each one recieving a well deserved Acadamy Award...Each giving credit to their Character, and our Struggle for awareness/Equality

[suebee]

Let's not forget T.D. Knight, a gay actor who portrayed George, a heterosexual doctor on Grey's Anatomy. Although he was completely out in his private life, his sexuality became mainstream news when one of his cooworkers, Issah Washington got into fight with one of the other actors on the set of the show over Washington's use of the "f" word to characterize Knight. Washington was subsequently dropped from the hit show. He didn't help his cause when he repeatedly tried to justify his used of the "f" word, saying that where he grew up it meant "weak" (oh, and here we thought you we being insulting! WTF?). I saw him and his wife doing the "some of our best friends are gay" routine on a couple of interviews.

Yup. We need more mainstream gay and lesbian characters on television and in the movies.

Has anyone noticed that the last couple of times that Kathy Bates has played a secondary role in a movie her character has been lesbian - and her orientation played no part at all in the plot. Just like a "normal" person!

[Gemme]

What night is this airing? My memory is pretty much shot now. :blink:

[Hudson]

Jesus, that clip sounds and looks like it was written by the
National Organization for Marriage, the makers of the
'Gathering Storm' ads. People will tune in just to see if Kathy
Griffin gets her toaster.

[MsMerrick]

I don't think I like the way that clip ended, but interesting for sure.

There's also a lesbian on Desperate Housewives now. She's an ex stripper/exotic dancer/lap dancer. I found this especially interesting because I've known a number of lesbians who were or are into this same profession. I've never quite understood how that happens, but I know for sure that it does.

We really are in every walk of life


Yeah I just saw that ! I had the same thoughts :)
It looks to me, like relationship time for ..whatsherface :) Nice !

[Semantics]

I don't think I like the way that clip ended, but interesting for sure.

There's also a lesbian on Desperate Housewives now. She's an ex stripper/exotic dancer/lap dancer. I found this especially interesting because I've known a number of lesbians who were or are into this same profession. I've never quite understood how that happens, but I know for sure that it does.
We really are in every walk of life


Well, I don't think that many women, queer or straight, go into that profession to find potential dates so I'm not sure what sexuality has to do with it.

[Mister Bent]

I read this whole thread hoping to find out what might be at all compelling in this as a topic.

Maybe we could just talk some more about Meredith Baxter Birney.

[Write14u]

I read this whole thread hoping to find out what might be at all compelling in this as a topic.

Maybe we could just talk some more about Meredith Baxter Birney.

Oh god... let's give the dude his money back (and all 10 minutes it took to flip through this). If you aren't interested...find another thread. It's not rocket science.

[Mister Bent]

Oh god... let's give the dude his money back (and all 10 minutes it took to flip through this). If you aren't interested...find another thread. It's not rocket science.

O look, it's the cops.

Rocket science, yuk yuk.

[Dylan]

I can't think of a queer actor that could have done it that justice.


Do you think that you not being able to name a dynamic queer actor on the level of Sean Penn has to do with the fact that A) a queer actor like that doesn't exist or B) queer actors aren't getting hired to play major roles, because they're gay?


I'm Going With B,
Dylan

[Write14u]

Do you think that you not being able to name a dynamic queer actor on the level of Sean Penn has to do with the fact that A) a queer actor like that doesn't exist or B) queer actors aren't getting hired to play major roles, because they're gay?


I'm Going With B,
Dylan

I don't think it's the way it used to be where actors were blackballed for being queer. I'm not saying a queer actor of Penn's caliber doesn't exist. Just that I'm not able to think of one.

[Write14u]

O look, it's the cops.

Rocket science, yuk yuk.

Nahh, the cops are the subject we're discussing. You know, the one that bores you but makes you want to comment on it anyway. Thanks for your two cents. It added much.

[Dylan]

I don't think it's the way it used to be where actors were blackballed for being queer. I'm not saying a queer actor of Penn's caliber doesn't exist. Just that I'm not able to think of one.

Ahhh, ok...so, they're not blackballed...but you can't think of one...but you not being able to think of one has nothing to do with the fact that queer actors aren't even good enough to play queer characters. Because of COURSE straights can play queers better.


Am I Understanding You Correctly?,
Dylan

[Mister Bent]

Nahh, the cops are the subject we're discussing. You know, the one that bores you but makes you want to comment on it anyway. Thanks for your two cents. It added much.


Who said anything about being bored?

My question was entirely legitimate. I wanted to know what made this a compelling topic. Nothing was revealed.

The end.

[Write14u]

Ahhh, ok...so, they're not blackballed...but you can't think of one...but you not being able to think of one has nothing to do with the fact that queer actors aren't even good enough to play queer characters. Because of COURSE straights can play queers better.


Am I Understanding You Correctly?,
Dylan

Never said that.
But it seems to me that most actors like to expand their horizons a bit. Why would queer actors ALWAYS want queer roles?
As for who can play what better ... I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a better actor than Penn or Hanks regardless of whether they're in a straight or queer role. Has nothing to do with being queer.

ETA: I think no actor wants to get stereotyped into one type of role. I like Leisha Hailey. She was one of the few queers on the L Word, which I liked. However, I could see why she wouldn't always want queer roles and be limited to just that. I think that goes across the board for any actor. I mean, hell, even The Rock didn't want to be cast into the same action roles every time (see: Tooth Fairy)

[Write14u]

Who said anything about being bored?

My question was entirely legitimate. I wanted to know what made this a compelling topic. Nothing was revealed.

The end.

Well, I'm not sure what would make it compelling for you.
However, as someone who has watched SVU quite a bit, it is. For me, it's compelling to see whether they bring the character out of the closet or even if she gets beyond what comes across as homophobia at the end of that clip. Having watched the show, I'd say that's not how her character has come across in the past, so it was surprising.
That makes it compelling for me, at least.
As for you, well, that's up to you.

[Cyclopea]

I read this whole thread hoping to find out what might be at all compelling in this as a topic.

Maybe we could just talk some more about Meredith Baxter Birney.

Who said anything about being bored?

My question was entirely legitimate. I wanted to know what made this a compelling topic. Nothing was revealed.

The end.

Media representations of Lesbians and Gays are of great interest to Lesbians and Gays. So much so that many of us even fund a lobbying group to combat defamatory portrayals of Lesbians and Gays. (GLAAD- Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation). Historically, media representations of Lesbians and Gays have had a huge impact on the opinions of the majority culture. As minorities, our depiction in mainstream media is of great interest and concern to us. Hence the interest in discussing the upcoming airing of a Lesbian theme on a popular mainstream TV show. Lesbians are also interested in celebrities and public figures who come out of the closet, such as Ms. Baxter-Birney.
I highly recommend you look into why Lesbian and Gay people are so keenly interested in media depictions of us. It's quite interesting, actually.
The GLAAD website would be a good place to start.
:LGBTQFlag:

[PapaC]

oh whatever, whining about straight portraying queering situations on TV... yes, so oppressive... like the rednecks on South Park clammering.. "they took our jobs!"

YouTube- south park-they took our jobs!!!

Sometimes some of us really just wanna see two hot chicks make out on tv regardless of whether they're out in RT or not.

but I suppose I'm having a very non-feminist moment for saying that. :P

[Cyclopea]

oh whatever, whining

Sometimes some of us really just wanna see two hot chicks make out on tv regardless of whether they're out in RT or not.
:P

Well here ya go enjoy
YouTube- Lady Kisses: That's Gay

[Mister Bent]

Media representations of Lesbians and Gays are of great interest to Lesbians and Gays. So much so that many of us even fund a lobbying group to combat defamatory portrayals of Lesbians and Gays. (GLAAD- Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation). Historically, media representations of Lesbians and Gays have had a huge impact on the opinions of the majority culture. As minorities, our depiction in mainstream media is of great interest and concern to us. Hence the interest in discussing the upcoming airing of a Lesbian theme on a popular mainstream TV show. Lesbians are also interested in celebrities and public figures who come out of the closet, such as Ms. Baxter-Birney.
I highly recommend you look into why Lesbian and Gay people are so keenly interested in media depictions of us. It's quite interesting, actually.
The GLAAD website would be a good place to start.
:LGBTQFlag:

Well, sure, that would be a great argument if that were actually the conversation being had here, but it's not. Actually, this post - in response to mine - is the first that has directly addressed the issue of media representation and cultural perception. Perhaps I missed a post along the way that also does so, please direct me to it if I'm mistaken.

Conversation about "what team" an actor is playing for, or, as Papa Chris said, "whining about straight portraying queering situations on TV" lacks as informed dialogue on media representation of lgbt "minority" culture. If we're worried about how the mainstream views lgbt individuals, then what is the relevance of the actor's sexuality? It's acting. The concern would be for plot line and script writing.

[Martina]

oh whatever, whining about straight portraying queering situations on TV... yes, so oppressive... like the rednecks on South Park clammering.. "they took our jobs!"

YouTube- south park-they took our jobs!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLni3wbndls)

Sometimes some of us really just wanna see two hot chicks make out on tv regardless of whether they're out in RT or not.

but I suppose I'm having a very non-feminist moment for saying that. :P

No, just a rude one. Is this the red zone?

[Sybelle]

Cool thread. [insert IMHO here]

Tom Hanks was amazing in Philadelphia. I haven't seen Milk, so no rating Sean Penn's performance. What they both have in common though for studio producers is bankable star quality. Studios want to put names that can sell a movie, into their productions. They like to break even and make a few bucks (bucks - translated to mean millions and millions).

An actor's "bankable" name depends on you and I, as consumers. But we are a small drop in the bucket when it comes down to getting people to shell out money at the box office. Demographics come into play. Studios also often screen a movie with several test audiences to see if it has that right combination of actors/storyline. If it doesn't they take it back to the drawing board and tweak it.

All of those creative juices are also watched by groups like GLAAD and other groups. Lots of tweaking goes on, more than likely.

That reminds me, there were a number of various groups that came out against Avatar. It was an equal opportunity offending film, apparently. But in spite of that, it had bankable people involved with the production.

There is more to it than blatantly discriminating. Studios will continue to make movies, that make them money. [/imho]

[Queerasfck]

Various gossip websites online and Griffin herself tweeted that the her scene with Hargitay has been cut from the episode.........

[Sybelle]

[insert IMHO here]

We are fortunate though, that movies today are made without the guidance of the "Motion Picture Production Code" that used to regulate the industry from 1930 to 1968. The code came about in response to the horrific scandals of that time period. It was decided that Hollywood aka "Sin City" needed cleaning up. Lawd sakes, the field day evengelicals would have if they got their hands onto Hollywood today!

Mr. Will H. Hays, a prominent Republican was at the helm of setting the law in that day. And given how diligent he and other Republicans of that era were diligent in their duties, I still am at a loss to understand why there are gay Republicans. But that's another discussion thread.[/end IMHO]

[SassyLeo]

Do you think that you not being able to name a dynamic queer actor on the level of Sean Penn has to do with the fact that A) a queer actor like that doesn't exist or B) queer actors aren't getting hired to play major roles, because they're gay?


I'm Going With B,
Dylan


I think:

1. There are Queer actors who are not getting parts because they are Queer, sure. Even if their *bio* doesn't say they are Queer, maybe they are perceived as Queer, have some kind of stereotypical Queer presence (re: super flamey gay boy and the part is a for a straight dad to 3 kids and he cannot act his way into a straight part). And there are not a ton of Queer parts out there, comparative to how many Queer actors there are.

2. Maybe the Queer actors who auditioned for the part were crappy actors. Not ALL of them, but what I am sort of saying is, should a movie simply hire someone Queer to play a Queer character because they are Queer? I think the right and best actor should get the part, regardless of Queerness.

3. Maybe there are some *almost* great Queer actors out there, who, because of the above, don't get enough acting time to become better actors to possibly get the big parts.

All that being said, I certainly would love to see more Queer actors out there.

[BullDog]

I'm a huge Law & Order fan, but I think L&OSVU perpetuates violence against women by desensitizing people to rape and violence against women. It's quite bothersome to me.


Dylan

I think a lot of television and movies desensitize people to rape and violence against women myself, and it bothers me too. I rarely watch tv and don't watch a lot of violent movies either so my opinion is taken from that perspective.

It doesn't bother me if straight actors play queer parts if the part itself and story line is a good one. If the role/story line is perpetuating stereotypes then having a queer actor really isn't going to do much good.

[Cyclopea]

Well, sure, that would be a great argument if that were actually the conversation being had here, but it's not. Actually, this post - in response to mine - is the first that has directly addressed the issue of media representation and cultural perception. Perhaps I missed a post along the way that also does so, please direct me to it if I'm mistaken.

Conversation about "what team" an actor is playing for, or, as Papa Chris said, "whining about straight portraying queering situations on TV" lacks as informed dialogue on media representation of lgbt "minority" culture. If we're worried about how the mainstream views lgbt individuals, then what is the relevance of the actor's sexuality? It's acting. The concern would be for plot line and script writing.


That's weird- a conversation on media representation and cultural perception of lesbians is exactly what I've seen taking place in this thread. So yes, you are mistaken. I'm not going to "direct you" because I'm not going to waste my time breaking it down for someone whose apparent agenda is instructing lesbians and women on how they should frame conversations on their issues to more properly engage his interest.
If the subject is not interesting to you then don't read it. Insulting the intelligence of everyone who posted in the thread may not be the best tactic for getting what it is that you seek.

[NJFemmie]

My own two cents...

Doesn't bother me at all when a straight actor plays a homosexual. Doesn't bother me when a homosexual actor plays a straight role. It's called ACTING. Whoever does it best gets the part. Yay for them.

Did this show air yet?

[Dylan]

Well, sure, that would be a great argument if that were actually the conversation being had here, but it's not. Actually, this post - in response to mine - is the first that has directly addressed the issue of media representation and cultural perception. Perhaps I missed a post along the way that also does so, please direct me to it if I'm mistaken.

Conversation about "what team" an actor is playing for, or, as Papa Chris said, "whining about straight portraying queering situations on TV" lacks as informed dialogue on media representation of lgbt "minority" culture. If we're worried about how the mainstream views lgbt individuals, then what is the relevance of the actor's sexuality? It's acting. The concern would be for plot line and script writing.


I'll engage you because I have a few minutes to waste.

So, let's take 'Milk' as an example. How much money did that movie make? A ton, right? And how much money did, let's say, Sean Penn make from that movie? A ton, right (comparatively speaking)? And how much of that money was made OFF of the queer community/queer history/etc? All of it, right? That was a movie about queer rights, based on queer history, etc. And how much of that money went back into to the queer community? To my knowledge NONE of it went back into the queer community.

So here's where (part of) the privilege comes into effect. Straight people USE the queer community to make a shit ton of money while giving NONE of it back to the queer community. That's exploitation, for one. But it's also the way dominant culture works to oppress the oppressed group and keep them down. TAKE from the oppressed group, without utilizing the oppressed group's skills/without giving back to the oppressed group/etc.

Now, by using straight actors to 'play gay', what does that say to mainstream (homophobic) America? If I go to my neighbor (who's straight), and I say 'act gay'. What's the first thing my straight neighbor is probably going to do? He's probably going to lisp, show me the limp wrist, flutter around, etc. He's going to 'act' based on stereotypes...which perpetuates stereotypes.

And now a question for you. If you see nothing wrong with straights playing gay (while gays are kept out of the career field), can you please break down the difference between white actors doing blackface or men playing drag roles, because women weren't allowed to be actors? Can you tell me the difference?


Thanks,
Dylan...keeping it brief, because there's a helluva lot more to break down in straights 'playing gay'.

[NJFemmie]

I loved this http://www.virginmedia.com/images/phwoar-towongfoo-350.jpg

I don't think it could have been done any better, by anyone else.

[Softly]

So what happens when queers play straights? David Hyde Pierce played a straight guy for years. Should he give up that part to a straight guy? Portia de Rossi plays straight parts? Should she refuse these? Jodie Foster? Vin Diesel? Neil Patrick Harris? Should they all refuse straight parts because they are gay?


Since when is Vin Diesel gay?

really?

:hippie:

[Softly]

Well here ya go enjoy
YouTube- Lady Kisses: That's Gay (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tHppucxMrM)

Thanks :D I watched this.
at WORK. :innocent:


Did this show air yet?

wednesday night it comes on :)

[NJFemmie]

Thank you! Our TV died (yes, it was sad) ... so I need to make sure we're upstairs for this one. I am curious to see how it plays out.

[SassyLeo]

I'll engage you because I have a few minutes to waste.

So, let's take 'Milk' as an example. How much money did that movie make? A ton, right? And how much money did, let's say, Sean Penn make from that movie? A ton, right (comparatively speaking)? And how much of that money was made OFF of the queer community/queer history/etc? All of it, right? That was a movie about queer rights, based on queer history, etc. And how much of that money went back into to the queer community? To my knowledge NONE of it went back into the queer community.

So here's where (part of) the privilege comes into effect. Straight people USE the queer community to make a shit ton of money while giving NONE of it back to the queer community. That's exploitation, for one. But it's also the way dominant culture works to oppress the oppressed group and keep them down. TAKE from the oppressed group, without utilizing the oppressed group's skills/without giving back to the oppressed group/etc.

*snip*

First-
I attended the premier showing of Milk here in Portland. Gus Van Sant lives here and donates a TON of money to our community as well as other non-profits. He hosted the event along with Josh Brolin. All of the proceeds from our premier were donated to Outside In (http://www.outsidein.org/), which, among other programs has several LGBTQ programs including a TRANS health clinic.
Sean Penn donated one of the suits he wore in the movie to charity which was auctioned off to support 2 non-profits, one being the Hetrick-Martin Institute, home of the Harvey Milk High School in New York City. He also is a huge supporter of the No on Prop 8 initiatives. Gus Van Sant also donated to the No on Prop 8 campaign.

Sure, it is not millions…well, actually I don't know for sure. I'm not privvy to private donations made to orgs. I sorta see your point, however...

Second-
A well-known straight actor portrayed a super Queer one. And who knows maybe a Queer actor could have played the part just as well. I’m of course, supporting that. OF COURSE!

In this case, I think because a well know actor (regardless of gay or not) acted the part and WELL, tons of awareness was raised about Queers!

Levi’s (you know, the jeans?) launched a huge campaign with, again the Hetrick-Martin Insitute, to raise funds to provide financial stability for the Harvey Milk School. I think it was like $500,000…? Because of the movie!

I’m not saying, let’s bust out some gold medals for Sean Penn or Gus Van Sant based on the info I just pointed out, but NONE is a big statement to make.

[Selenay]

So, let's take 'Milk' as an example. How much money did that movie make? A ton, right? And how much money did, let's say, Sean Penn make from that movie? A ton, right (comparatively speaking)? And how much of that money was made OFF of the queer community/queer history/etc? All of it, right? That was a movie about queer rights, based on queer history, etc. And how much of that money went back into to the queer community? To my knowledge NONE of it went back into the queer community.



To say that "none" of it went back is a false statement.

Sean Penn openly lobbied for legislation to honor Harvey Milk, long after Oscar season was over. Would he have done this, had he not been involved? Hard to say.

Milk's screenwriter was honored at a charity ball in June, with all of the proceeds going to Lifeworks, an organization that offers mentoring opportunities for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender youth.

The clothing worn by Penn during Milk, also was auctioned off with some of the proceeds going to the Hetrick-Martin Institute, home of the Harvey Milk High School.


How much of the proceeds from heterosexual films in which roles are played by gay actors go to queer communities? Just a thought.

[Soft*Silver]

NBC, Wed, Mar 3 9:00 PM


What night is this airing? My memory is pretty much shot now. :blink:

[Dylan]

First-
I attended the premier showing of Milk here in Portland. Gus Van Sant lives here and donates a TON of money to our community as well as other non-profits. He hosted the event along with Josh Brolin. All of the proceeds from our premier were donated to Outside In (http://www.outsidein.org/), which, among other programs has several LGBTQ programs including a TRANS health clinic.
Sean Penn donated one of the suits he wore in the movie to charity which was auctioned off to support 2 non-profits, one being the Hetrick-Martin Institute, home of the Harvey Milk High School in New York City. He also is a huge supporter of the No on Prop 8 initiatives. Gus Van Sant also donated to the No on Prop 8 campaign.

Sure, it is not millions…well, actually I don't know for sure. I'm not privvy to private donations made to orgs. I sorta see your point, however...

Second-
A well-known straight actor portrayed a super Queer one. And who knows maybe a Queer actor could have played the part just as well. I’m of course, supporting that. OF COURSE!

In this case, I think because a well know actor (regardless of gay or not) acted the part and WELL, tons of awareness was raised about Queers!

Levi’s (you know, the jeans?) launched a huge campaign with, again the Hetrick-Martin Insitute, to raise funds to provide financial stability for the Harvey Milk School. I think it was like $500,000…? Because of the movie!

I’m not saying, let’s bust out some gold medals for Sean Penn or Gus Van Sant based on the info I just pointed out, but NONE is a big statement to make.



Your points are valid

Soooo, Sean Penn donated a suit he didn't even pay for? Wow! That must have been tough for him to part with, eh? While a majority of the money he made (and academy award that should have gone into the queer community) gets spent in straightdom. While, had a queer actor had this role, it would have A) made queer actors more visible, B) would have mainstreamed queerdom even a little more, C) would have put more queer money into the queer economy, D) would have opened more doors between queers and straightdom.

Why is it no one can name a queer actor who's won an academy award? Why is it that when an actor comes out as queer, he/she no longer really has a career? Do you think if, say, George Clooney came out, his career would pretty much be over? Why is it they've glammed up and feminized Queen Latifah (who's a big ol' butch in real time)? Do you think Queen Latifah would be making money the way she is if she were to come out? What happened to Wanda Sykes career after she came out? She certainly doesn't have her own sitcom anymore. Ellen's show went pretty much down the tubes after she came out. Do you think 'Milk' would have made the same amount of money without a completely straight cast? How many straight people benefitted and made gads of money in Milk? How many queers? How many queers suffered to make the story of Milk? How many queers died to make that story? Now, how many straight people made gads of money off of that suffering while not one queer played a queer, because 'real' queers aren't palatable or profitable enough for mainstream America? How about that movie NJFemmie posted a pic from? How many trans folks and gender variant people suffer everyday, so straight/cis actors can make a killing off of making gender variance 'humorous' and palatable for mainstream America? And how about RuPaul? Wouldn't that have been a prime opportunity to cast a gender variant person? Oh, but wait, it wouldn't have been a) funny or b) profitable. Oh, and how about The Birdcage and Robin Williams and that other guy who's name I can't remember. Oh, or Brokeback Mountain.

Here's the thing, had queer played themselves, more of that millions of dollars paid to those actors would be back INSIDE the queer community, making the queer community stronger. Generally speaking, do you think queers would have given more money to fighting Prop 8 or do you think queers would have given token donations to a school? Do you think queer academy award winners would be speaking out against Prop 8 and using whatever big name leverage they have against Prop 8 or giving a suit to a non-profit? When queers make money, the queer community (generally) makes money...money that is used to fight hate crimes bills, Mormons, support queers with jobs, etc. When that money is given to straights, more of that money stays in the straight community...at the expense of queers. AND stereotypes are perpetuated.

And again, can you explain to me how straights playing queers is different from blackface and/or men playing women (as in Shakespeare days when women weren't allowed to act), etc from a dynamic of power/oppression? I mean, even now, women only make up 29% of speaking roles in major movies, and only 3 of 100 films are directed by women. Is that sexism or just 'directing'. I have a really hard time believing ANYONE here would be in agreement with men playing all the roles of women in major movies and would just call it 'acting'.


Dylan

[Queerasfck]

It's about money really and how much the straight world will "buy" into the gay world. High ratings equal more money What do we as the community get back? I would love to support queer business and arts as much as possible and do. Problem is the choices are few. Then I just get the feeling we're being exploited especially when it comes to accurate representation in the media. The thing about a show like the L Word was that it was mostly crap, in writing and acting. Some queer had an idea for a show (which coulda been a really good idea) and Showtime decided they could make money off of it ("hot women having sex with each other, it sells"). Yes, there were a few queers in real life on the show as someone else already mentioned. Also the show's creator Ilene Chaiken is a lesbian and two of the directors are out lesbians, Rose Troche and Angela Robinson come to mind. It didn't represent any lesbians I know, and not realistic about it's protrayals of everyday people, homosexual, lesbian, queer or otherwise most of the time. I mean who goes out to breakfast with their friends everyday before work and then goes clubbing several nights during the work week?? Really no different than Queer as Folk. At times unbelievable about more serious topics as well....
The SVU episode clips NBC shows is all about shock value in hopes to gain viewership as the rating slip for that played out show. It's just about how far they can push things to get you to watch. It's too bad because I do like the cast.
Milk was directed by Gus Van Sant an out gay man. I don't think of the money went back into the gay community. But wouldn't it be great if performances like those in the movie Milk or Brokeback Mountain could really change people's ideas about certain stereotypes. For the most part I don't think they do. My sister who loves, loves James Franco and has seen everything James Franco has ever done wouldn't even see Milk because she thought it was a "downer". Probably the majority of the hetro US population don't want to see regular stories about queers. I think we as a queer people do more by living our lives outwardly when we can on a daily basis. We're really just the same as everybody except we don't have rights.

[SassyLeo]

*snip*
Why is it no one can name a queer actor who's won an academy award? Why is it that when an actor comes out as queer, he/she no longer really has a career? Do you think if, say, George Clooney came out, his career would pretty much be over? Why is it they've glammed up and feminized Queen Latifah (who's a big ol' butch in real time)? Do you think Queen Latifah would be making money the way she is if she were to come out? What happened to Wanda Sykes career after she came out? She certainly doesn't have her own sitcom anymore. Ellen's show went pretty much down the tubes after she came out.
*snip*

I have more to respond to this, but I gotta get back to work.

However I wanted to answer the academy award bit.

I get what you are saying...You are right, not many. I can only think of 2.
Jodie Foster
Ian McKellen

Of course, the rumors fly about Kevin Spacey and Phillip Seymour Hoffman ;)

[SassyLeo]

Apparently Josh Brolin and James Franco are the same dude?

HA!

All along, I meant James Franco.

Clearly my 10 days without coffee is bad for my memory.

And also, I think he was a risky choice for Milk. In that is was a risk for him to play a gay man, when he has a straight girl/teen/woman following as a "hot actor"

He doesn't seem to be hurting for roles these days.

[Queerasfck]

First-
I attended the premier showing of Milk here in Portland. Gus Van Sant lives here and donates a TON of money to our community as well as other non-profits. He hosted the event along with Josh Brolin. All of the proceeds from our premier were donated to Outside In (http://www.outsidein.org/), which, among other programs has several LGBTQ programs including a TRANS health clinic.
Sean Penn donated one of the suits he wore in the movie to charity which was auctioned off to support 2 non-profits, one being the Hetrick-Martin Institute, home of the Harvey Milk High School in New York City. He also is a huge supporter of the No on Prop 8 initiatives. Gus Van Sant also donated to the No on Prop 8 campaign.

Sure, it is not millions…well, actually I don't know for sure. I'm not privvy to private donations made to orgs. I sorta see your point, however...

Second-
A well-known straight actor portrayed a super Queer one. And who knows maybe a Queer actor could have played the part just as well. I’m of course, supporting that. OF COURSE!

In this case, I think because a well know actor (regardless of gay or not) acted the part and WELL, tons of awareness was raised about Queers!

Levi’s (you know, the jeans?) launched a huge campaign with, again the Hetrick-Martin Insitute, to raise funds to provide financial stability for the Harvey Milk School. I think it was like $500,000…? Because of the movie!

I’m not saying, let’s bust out some gold medals for Sean Penn or Gus Van Sant based on the info I just pointed out, but NONE is a big statement to make.



Glad to read this. The visibility helps.

[Dylan]

Sassy,

Why on Earth would anyone go without coffee for ten days?


Dylan

[SassyLeo]

Sassy,

Why on Earth would anyone go without coffee for ten days?


Dylan

Oh crap, well... on Jan 4th, I stopped eating processed sugars and cut way down on carbs. Then a few weekends ago, I got food poisoning and barely ate for week, which included no coffee. So, I thought...eh, I'm already kind of cutting out stuff, let's see how I fare without coffee.

Honestly, I miss it. But I'm determined to try without it for one month to see how different I feel.

My boss said to me this morning: "You're so quiet. What's going on?"

Clearly it is having some kind of affect on me. Effect?

[Soon]

An Open Letter to the Closeted Leading Man (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-pevsner/an-open-letter-to-the-clo_b_460800.html)

[Mister Bent]

That's weird- a conversation on media representation and cultural perception of lesbians is exactly what I've seen taking place in this thread. So yes, you are mistaken. I'm not going to "direct you" because I'm not going to waste my time breaking it down for someone whose apparent agenda is instructing lesbians and women on how they should frame conversations on their issues to more properly engage his interest.
If the subject is not interesting to you then don't read it. Insulting the intelligence of everyone who posted in the thread may not be the best tactic for getting what it is that you seek.

To state my "agenda" as you did was a huge leap of illogic wrought of assumption. "Instructing lesbians and women on how they should frame conversations on their issues?"

You completely dismiss that there are trans/queer/and male members of the site posting in this thread, yet you state that I was only addressing the lesbians and women. Interesting, though false.

A conversation on media representation of lgbt individuals and community could be quite compelling, speculation about whether Mariska Hargitay is gay or not, how many gays will jump for joy should she reveal herself to be, is not. And frankly, I found the whole conversation about lesbians who are former strippers sort of gross. (Which is more about the way it was presented than the topic itself.)

Yes, I think it's safe to say you entirely misread my "agenda."

If you really want to discuss what the conversation here has been, the fact is lately it's been more focused on the imbalance of power in Hollywood (in terms of revenue & status) than on "media representation." Otherwise, I'm done discussing your offense at my post and would much prefer to discuss that while Ellen's tv sitcom tanked after she came out, she now has a very widely viewed talk show and was selected to host the immensely popular American Idol.

Tiny in-road for gays and lesbians or mainstream culture tossing us a bone?

[torchiegirl]

That clip was weird. My eyebrows are still pulled down.

[Cyclopea]

To state my "agenda" as you did was a huge leap of illogic wrought of assumption. "Instructing lesbians and women on how they should frame conversations on their issues?"

You completely dismiss that there are trans/queer/and male members of the site posting in this thread, yet you state that I was only addressing the lesbians and women. Interesting, though false.

Not at all. I do believe it was you that insulted everyone posting, not me. I appreciate the input of allies in this discussion which began on the topic of a specific media representation of lesbians. No one else instructed lesbians and women on how they should alter their discussion to maintain the interest of non-lesbians. Only you. Interesting the assumption you made. Very interesting.


A conversation on media representation of lgbt individuals and community could be quite compelling, speculation about whether Mariska Hargitay is gay or not, how many gays will jump for joy should she reveal herself to be, is not. And frankly, I found the whole conversation about lesbians who are former strippers sort of gross. (Which is more about the way it was presented than the topic itself.)
Yes, you've already made clear that the topic is not of interest to you. It is to others. Obviously.


Yes, I think it's safe to say you entirely misread my "agenda."

If you really want to discuss what the conversation here has been, the fact is lately it's been more focused on the imbalance of power in Hollywood (in terms of revenue & status) than on "media representation." Otherwise, I'm done discussing your offense at my post and would much prefer to discuss that while Ellen's tv sitcom tanked after she came out, she now has a very widely viewed talk show and was selected to host the immensely popular American Idol.

Tiny in-road for gays and lesbians or mainstream culture tossing us a bone?


----------------------------

[Mister Bent]

Cyclopea, if you feel insulted or dismissed by my post, that's one thing.

But to consistently try to apply to me an agenda that is nowhere in evidence simply comes across as personal issue on your part.

Nowhere did I address my comments toward "lesbians and women." I'm not sure why it's so important to you to paint me as a misogynist homophobe, but I can assure you, I am not.

If you'd like to continue to promote your argument, please consider using the handy PM feature, because this is tiresome.

Thanks.

[Cyclopea]

An Open Letter to the Closeted Leading Man (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-pevsner/an-open-letter-to-the-clo_b_460800.html)

It'll be very interesting to see if someone does it. It occurs to me that many of the rumored A-list closet cases have gone to such great lengths to establish a straight facade by the time they reach superstardom, that were they to come out belatedly they might be regarded as enormous liars in addition to being gay men. Not sure how that would work out for someone like John Travolta or Tom Cruise at this stage in their career.
As the boomer generation of A-listers retires and dies some interesting revelations will probably "come out".

[SassyLeo]

Your points are valid

Soooo, Sean Penn donated a suit he didn't even pay for? Wow! That must have been tough for him to part with, eh? While a majority of the money he made (and academy award that should have gone into the queer community) gets spent in straightdom. While, had a queer actor had this role, it would have A) made queer actors more visible, B) would have mainstreamed queerdom even a little more, C) would have put more queer money into the queer economy, D) would have opened more doors between queers and straightdom.

Why is it no one can name a queer actor who's won an academy award? Why is it that when an actor comes out as queer, he/she no longer really has a career? Do you think if, say, George Clooney came out, his career would pretty much be over? Why is it they've glammed up and feminized Queen Latifah (who's a big ol' butch in real time)? Do you think Queen Latifah would be making money the way she is if she were to come out? What happened to Wanda Sykes career after she came out? She certainly doesn't have her own sitcom anymore. Ellen's show went pretty much down the tubes after she came out. Do you think 'Milk' would have made the same amount of money without a completely straight cast? How many straight people benefitted and made gads of money in Milk? How many queers? How many queers suffered to make the story of Milk? How many queers died to make that story? Now, how many straight people made gads of money off of that suffering while not one queer played a queer, because 'real' queers aren't palatable or profitable enough for mainstream America? How about that movie NJFemmie posted a pic from? How many trans folks and gender variant people suffer everyday, so straight/cis actors can make a killing off of making gender variance 'humorous' and palatable for mainstream America? And how about RuPaul? Wouldn't that have been a prime opportunity to cast a gender variant person? Oh, but wait, it wouldn't have been a) funny or b) profitable. Oh, and how about The Birdcage and Robin Williams and that other guy who's name I can't remember. Oh, or Brokeback Mountain.

Here's the thing, had queer played themselves, more of that millions of dollars paid to those actors would be back INSIDE the queer community, making the queer community stronger. Generally speaking, do you think queers would have given more money to fighting Prop 8 or do you think queers would have given token donations to a school? Do you think queer academy award winners would be speaking out against Prop 8 and using whatever big name leverage they have against Prop 8 or giving a suit to a non-profit? When queers make money, the queer community (generally) makes money...money that is used to fight hate crimes bills, Mormons, support queers with jobs, etc. When that money is given to straights, more of that money stays in the straight community...at the expense of queers. AND stereotypes are perpetuated.

And again, can you explain to me how straights playing queers is different from blackface and/or men playing women (as in Shakespeare days when women weren't allowed to act), etc from a dynamic of power/oppression? I mean, even now, women only make up 29% of speaking roles in major movies, and only 3 of 100 films are directed by women. Is that sexism or just 'directing'. I have a really hard time believing ANYONE here would be in agreement with men playing all the roles of women in major movies and would just call it 'acting'.


Dylan

So, here's the thing. I pretty much agree with you on all of this. I am not denying that society/media/entertainment is still homophobic. I would love to see more Queer actors and especially in big roles. And I am sure they are out there. Ones who are fucking amazing! Yes, it absolutely sucks that we don't have as much visibility.

Before I was alive, my mom lived and worked in Hollywood. One of her oldest friends is a gay man who worked in the industry as well. He was actually in Rebel Without A Cause (woohoo 15 minutes of fame! not really, he actually did OK for himself). He totally could not be OUT. Of course it was the 50's and that would have killed any career he imagined. He came out much later in life.

Ellen may have suffered some initially, but she is certainly not suffering now. In fact, quite the opposite. Jodie Foster has had a strange go of it the last few years. Wanda Sykes...doesn't she have a show on Fox? The Wanda Sykes Show? I thought Queen Latifah was OUT? I read somewhere that she and her partner were talking marriage. I could be wrong about that...

What I don't want to do is lose sight of the progress that has been made. I think it is important to continue to acknowledge it, make note of change, even if it is small.

[Diva]

So.....I watched the clip......and skimmed through the rest of this stuff.....

And all I could think was.....did no one ELSE take issue with the DELIVERY of said kiss beSTOWED on the lush, lovely, supple and fully delicious lips of one Ms. M. HardlyGay?

I mean, come ON. I wouldn't be on that Drive~by(thru) Menu either!

Carry on.

[Cyclopea]

Cyclopea, if you feel insulted or dismissed by my post, that's one thing.

But to consistently try to apply to me an agenda that is nowhere in evidence simply comes across as personal issue on your part.

Nowhere did I address my comments toward "lesbians and women." I'm not sure why it's so important to you to paint me as a misogynist homophobe, but I can assure you, I am not.

If you'd like to continue to promote your argument, please consider using the handy PM feature, because this is tiresome.

Thanks.

I have a “personal issue”? Yes, I do. My “personal issue” is that most LGBTQQI people find the topic of whether or not a public figure is “one of us” quite interesting. Meredith Baxter, Markista Hargitray, Vin Deisel, Chaz Bono, Jodi Foster or Caster Semenya, all interesting to LGBTQQI peeps and our allies. We also find the “coming out” of celebrities quite interesting. Media representations of LGBTQQI people: also intrinsically interesting. We don’t need to frame our comments by outlining the social history of LGBTQQI people because most of us have been soaking in it for years. Therefore we often speak in a shorthand on such topics among ourselves.

You’ve stated repeatedly that the topic of whether famous actors are lesbian or not is of no interest to you, and instructed posters repeatedly to frame our conversation on lesbian visibility in a way that is more interesting to you. My “personal” response is to ask you to desist insulting lesbian members and our allies that do find this conversation interesting. It’s unfortunate that I am not able to effectively communicate something to you that seems so obvious and fundamental. Perhaps that is my failing, or perhaps simply a sign of your personal issues. I am not interested in PMing a stranger who insults me and everyone in the thread. If you continue to make dismissive comments I will continue to address them.

[Cyclopea]

So.....I watched the clip......and skimmed through the rest of this stuff.....

And all I could think was.....did no one ELSE take issue with the DELIVERY of said kiss beSTOWED on the lush, lovely, supple and fully delicious lips of one Ms. M. HardlyGay?

I mean, come ON. I wouldn't be on that Drive~by(thru) Menu either!

Carry on.

Hahahaha! It was more of a lunge than a kiss. Not hot!
"Hardlygay"- LMAO.

[Apocalipstic]

So.....I watched the clip......and skimmed through the rest of this stuff.....

And all I could think was.....did no one ELSE take issue with the DELIVERY of said kiss beSTOWED on the lush, lovely, supple and fully delicious lips of one Ms. M. HardlyGay?

I mean, come ON. I wouldn't be on that Drive~by(thru) Menu either!

Carry on.

I agree, the kiss sucked!

[Write14u]

I agree, the kiss sucked!

See...they needed ME to give her a good kiss. WTF were they thinking? I mean, come on! *grin*

ETA: Actually, as fun as that would be, I'd still jump in the "Kiss Melina Kanakaredes" line first (Stella, NY:CSI)
Mmmmmmmmm
*grin*

[SassyLeo]

*snip*
The thing about a show like the L Word was that it was mostly crap, in writing and acting. Some queer had an idea for a show (which coulda been a really good idea) and Showtime decided they could make money off of it ("hot women having sex with each other, it sells"). Yes, there were a few queers in real life on the show as someone else already mentioned. Also the show's creator Ilene Chaiken is a lesbian and two of the directors are out lesbians, Rose Troche and Angela Robinson come to mind. It didn't represent any lesbians I know, and not realistic about it's protrayals of everyday people, homosexual, lesbian, queer or otherwise most of the time. I mean who goes out to breakfast with their friends everyday before work and then goes clubbing several nights during the work week?? Really no different than Queer as Folk. At times unbelievable about more serious topics as well....
*snip*


So I've been thinking more about this today.

Ever since the L Word aired, I have had so many mixed feelings about it.

1. Yay, the Queers have a show! Yay, it is all about Lesbians! Yay, it is on a big time cable network! Yay, it has a couple of well known actors!

2. Boo, it is not on primetime TV. Boo, 99% of the actors are straight women. Boo, the characters are totally not "real life" type Lesbians.

So basically they have perpetuated the totally stereotypical and also unrealistic Lesbian world. But at least it is on TV, right? (I'm being sort of glib).

What is worse, having dramatic unrealistic visibility or having visibility at all?

[Jess]

Let's not forget T.D. Knight, a gay actor who portrayed George, a heterosexual doctor on Grey's Anatomy. Although he was completely out in his private life, his sexuality became mainstream news when one of his cooworkers, Issah Washington got into fight with one of the other actors on the set of the show over Washington's use of the "f" word to characterize Knight. Washington was subsequently dropped from the hit show. He didn't help his cause when he repeatedly tried to justify his used of the "f" word, saying that where he grew up it meant "weak" (oh, and here we thought you we being insulting! WTF?). I saw him and his wife doing the "some of our best friends are gay" routine on a couple of interviews.

Yup. We need more mainstream gay and lesbian characters on television and in the movies.

Has anyone noticed that the last couple of times that Kathy Bates has played a secondary role in a movie her character has been lesbian - and her orientation played no part at all in the plot. Just like a "normal" person!


I tend to get very happy when I see characters in film ( especially major Hollywood flicks) like this. We just watched The Stepfather, a bad film I don't really recommend, and there was a lesbian couple as part of the cast of characters. No major focal point and no overt manner of portraying them as "lesbians". No big sex scene made for men. Just subtle everyday interactions that made it clear they were a couple.

I like when we queer folk are portrayed as "just normal". Not the main story, not overdone. Just real.

I wasn't thrilled with the clip of L&O. Not a huge fan of Kathy G nor her style of "acting". I don't see where having "Olivia" come out as a lesbian would "add" to her character on the show. She is a strong woman fighting the good fight. That is enough for me.

As for the argument that having major "gay" actors portraying gay figures would automatically add to the gay community monetarily, I find that awfully presumptuous. While I also get a great thrill personally every time someone very public "comes out", I do not automatically assume they will become a spokesperson or fund gatherer for "our cause". Some may contribute back, some may not. They are only human. It should not be an assumption in my opinion.

[Jess]

BUMP..

So, good , bad or otherwise it comes on tonight. It is always interesting to see how the queers will be portrayed on prime time.

[Cyclopea]

BUMP..

So, good , bad or otherwise it comes on tonight. It is always interesting to see how the queers will be portrayed on prime time.

According to my TV listings it's a TWO HOUR show. Is that right? That's a heck of a time commitment just to see how (if) they edited the homophobic parts. Not sure I can last two hours, lol.

Here's a much hotter gay kiss from an SVU'er to tide us over...
YouTube- Beecher & Keller - You are my high

[Jess]

LOL.. true.. 2 hrs is a bit much when there is a new Criminal Minds on at the same time.. I'll have to record one so I can watch both.

[Soft*Silver]

and I wasnt even Kissed...

but neither was Marisa...

OH but HE was kissed...

and the flaming lesbo was iced down and refried into a bisexual....

personally there is nothing wrong with bisexuals in my book. My ANGER is that they marketed to and targeted lesbians and the show was hyped as having a lesbian kiss segment

and the video promo I saw, the gals DID kiss..but oh no not tonight...

I am boycotting SVU..... they lost my loyalty...

damn..this was worse than when my batteries ran out...

:mad:

[Cyclopea]

and I wasnt even Kissed...

but neither was Marisa...

OH but HE was kissed...

and the flaming lesbo was iced down and refried into a bisexual....

personally there is nothing wrong with bisexuals in my book. My ANGER is that they marketed to and targeted lesbians and the show was hyped as having a lesbian kiss segment

and the video promo I saw, the gals DID kiss..but oh no not tonight...

I am boycotting SVU..... they lost my loyalty...

damn..this was worse than when my batteries ran out...

:mad:

Hahaha Testify sistah!
:rainbowAfro:

[Write14u]

Not surprisingly, I forgot it was coming on. I don't watch much TV.

[Cyclopea]

What I learned from SVU tonight:

-Lesbians are cultlike followers

-Lesbians are overreactive angry harpies

-Outspoken or politically active women are harpies

-Lesbianism is a choice

-Lesbianism is malleable in the presence of the "right" man

-Lesbians recruit

-Lesbians are attracted to and hit on every attractive straight women that crosses their path

-Lesbians are quick to misinterpret the intentions of well-meaning straight women

-Lesbians believe straight women cannot be "strong" or work in non-traditional jobs

-Organizations or groups that focus on specifically lesbian concerns are exclusionary and should not exist

-Aggressives have secret nicknames and would lie about a nickname even if it undermined the murder investigation of their significant other

-Aggressives are crazy violent criminals

-Women who embrace their masculinity are secretive and express that masculinity through violence

-Masculinity=violence

-Transgendered lesbians do not exist

-Bisexuals lie about, and are ashamed of their affectational orientation and only come out when forced

-Bisexuals with boyfriends who are hospitalized with gunshot wounds kiss any hot guy that's around and tell them to "give me a call"

-Lesbians reject bisexuals because bisexuals make a choice of sexual orientation that they themselves could also make, but reject

-When females tell males they are sexist asses they really just want to make out

Now I remember why I hate that show. BTW I was working on something and couldn't immediately change the channel and found the beginning of the second episode every bit as annoying: when Martiska Hargatroy told the prostitute she could go to an agency "right now" that would house her, feed her, give her emotional support and therapy and "help her get her GED" (IE: She was a prostitute by choice because plentiful well-funded agencies are standing by waiting to fulfill all her needs- what a load of shit).

As an OZ fan the intense reunion embrace of Beecher and Keller was amusing tho.

All in all, SUV is sexist, homophobic, stupit, and sucks. Reminds me all the more to try and represent for my lesbian sistahs. (Until the right man comes along of course.)

[Queerasfck]

So I've been thinking more about this today.

Ever since the L Word aired, I have had so many mixed feelings about it.

1. Yay, the Queers have a show! Yay, it is all about Lesbians! Yay, it is on a big time cable network! Yay, it has a couple of well known actors!

2. Boo, it is not on primetime TV. Boo, 99% of the actors are straight women. Boo, the characters are totally not "real life" type Lesbians.

So basically they have perpetuated the totally stereotypical and also unrealistic Lesbian world. But at least it is on TV, right? (I'm being sort of glib).

What is worse, having dramatic unrealistic visibility or having visibility at all?

Totally agree with what you've posted here SassyLeo. I think queer representation in the media is really important. I have mixed feelings about straights playing gay. There were no queers on tv when I was growning up. Occasionally if trans person or queer was shown they were freaks. No doubt there have been some positive things on tv and the movies recently but still there are a lot of stereotypes constantly thrown in. By reading this thread I see that tonight's episode of SVU was dissappointing to many viewers.

[Dragonfly]

So I did that thing I do that is so annoying.

I tried to find something good to relate to or say about that show...

1) It was LBGTQIA** that she publically informed everyone watching..... I liked that it was an attempt to include everyone
** standing for Lesbian/Bisexual/Gay/Trans/Questioning/Intersexed/Allies
(even if it got twisted and made to seem like everyone who now tries to inform others may be treated like a fanatic, like that character, they may then tune out and ask "So when will ya turn Bi?" )



2) It may have helped in disparaging the myth that the Queer Community is exempt of violence against women or Domestic violence, or that it is a less diverse range of any type of people than the hetero community... and said something like the statement "just like strait". I like that because that kind of thinking is an obstacle for women in our community when they do need to seek help for violent acts against them by same sex partners. Some have been laughed off and or turned away.

** (I use Queer when talking about the community I feel connected to. It is my personal choice of a word that to me defines what I personally view as everyone before the "ally" letter of the above anacronym.)



3) It touched on something I have seen happen in the queer community relating to how some are so ultra sensitized by the daily insults and discrimination from the outside world that they: can be abrasive to someone who is not biased.... They can turn on one another, discriminate against certain "types" of their own community (bisexuals and femmes sometimes have this happen to them, just not soo often that svu is right to stereotype us all to be "like that"), her character on the show also alienates actual supporters by projecting the defensive over reaction to every single thing said... wrong place and time to say that!! Umm but we should be careful NOT to seem like that... especially now that people have seen THAT episode.



At the same time this "bright side" I saw.. if you call it bright... was also where I was yelling at the tv. These three were a real stretch, even for me Ms. Pollyanna. I REALLY hated the world maybe thinking that the lesbian community views someone who realizes they are bi as a "traitor" and that we peer pressure one another to stay gay. UGH that bothered me because even though I have seen it, never really want to think that is the majority attitude that bi's are not included. Or men of any sexuality are mistreated by lesbians. It's not the norm I want portrayed as an accurate example of any of us...


OK thats all I could vomit up good or positive about tonights SVU show. I'd prefer to just say "yeah what she said in that list above"

But cause I cant communicate "me too" ALL the time ...

Next I will be resorting to saying "Well at least Aggressives were mentioned" rather than go off about what THAT one is gonna stir up for butches and trans. The masculine women in the queer community were just represented as Domestic Abusers. Regardless of my no. 2 up there, I think the show will do more harm than good by making that person an abuser. Coulda touched on same sex domestic violence without targeting or stereotyping.



P.S. I know VERY little about "aggressives" and if they are any way related to the butch term ...? Am I the only one wondering? If so be gentle with me. No disrespect meant in this post at all. I am still shell shocked from the whole day today. I have heard the term mentioned in the "BF: are these terms antiquidated" thread. Scared to ask back then... But I dont trust public opinion on some random site that comes up on a search. I Want to read about it here where I trust more that I am getting an educated answer.

I have heard of the documentary called "The Aggressives" but havent seen it, or heard our own perspective of accuracy, like if there are stereotypes to look beyond.

See a review at : http://www.buygay.com/the-aggressives/p-231574-2

[PapaC]

My response in bold


What I learned from SVU tonight:

-Lesbians are cultlike followers

Some of what was presented on the show tonight is unfortunately accurate, Cyclo. I've seen and and been a part of ridiculous blind loyalty to unscrupulous characters who yes, happen to be part of the LGBT community. Cultlike? Thank you, that's very good word actually.

-Lesbians are overreactive angry harpies

Some are, absolutely. Come on? Are you going to deny that angry lesbians don't exist? with or without justifiable reasons?

-Outspoken or politically active women are harpies
See above

-Lesbianism is a choice
hmmm.... no sure how to comment on that one.

-Lesbianism is malleable in the presence of the "right" man
It happens. Can you (and others) deal with that? Care to take a guess on how many of my lesbian/queer partners ended up or turned an eye towards men? Think I give a shit or think they weren't 'real' lesbians at the time? or that their queer politics weren't in check?

-Lesbians recruit
Some try to, proudly. How many married women have dated lesbians and then came out? (putting my hand up)

-Lesbians are attracted to and hit on every attractive straight women that crosses their path
Yeah, I'll agree Griffin's character was a bit over the top on that. but is Law and Order the series, and the show stating this by having this type of character on one episode? Really?

-Lesbians are quick to misinterpret the intentions of well-meaning straight women
I saw as them having a difference in perspective because hello, a lot of well-meaning straight women actually do NOT get it, or understand

-Lesbians believe straight women cannot be "strong" or work in non-traditional jobs
no particular comment or argument there.

-Organizations or groups that focus on specifically lesbian concerns are exclusionary and should not exist
Why do you feel they should not exist? Do you think that was the message they were trying to convey? I think the message was, 'LesBeStrong' was more exclusively about Lesbian rights, yes, but when its founder comes out as Bi, or more true to herself, she felt the need to open it more to LGBT. Is there anything wrong with that message?

-Aggressives have secret nicknames and would lie about a nickname even if it undermined the murder investigation of their significant other
I don't know (personally) anyone who IDs as an Aggressive however, there are many many butches I know with 'secret' or secondary 'boi' names. I thought that was quite accurate and on point.

-Aggressives are crazy violent criminals
I'd imagine some of them are. So? It's called LAW AND ORDER. It's a show that's going to show insavory characters who have violent streaks. This time, an aggressive. Is that so wrong and inaccurate? really?

-Women who embrace their masculinity are secretive and express that masculinity through violence
Again, see above. They questioned one aggressive, who was violent. There were a sea of others on the show that didn't express their masculinity that way.

-Masculinity=violence
see above

-Transgendered lesbians do not exist
and was this episode supposed to showcase every single type of queer? in one hour?

-Bisexuals lie about, and are ashamed of their affectational orientation and only come out when forced
Wanna take a guess at how many femmes and butches have had to be in the closet about being bi, or worse be labelled players and sluts by other femmes and butches in our community because they happened to like dick (past or present?). Would you like to know some of the reasons why I personally stayed in the closet for 6 years longer than I personally should have? If you don't have a history of being bisexual, you are not aware of the rampant bi-phobia that continues to exist in this very community. Again, that portrayal of Griffen's character reasons for being in the closet was sadly, very very on point.


-Bisexuals with boyfriends who are hospitalized with gunshot wounds kiss any hot guy that's around and tell them to "give me a call"
The little bit made me laugh actually,. It was entertaining. Like a hot gay men's kiss.

-Lesbians reject bisexuals because bisexuals make a choice of sexual orientation that they themselves could also make, but reject
SEE ABOVE


All in all, SUV is sexist, homophobic, stupit, and sucks. Reminds me all the more to try and represent for my lesbian sistahs. (Until the right man comes along of course.)

Ok, granted I can respect that opinion, but really, is it the only show that has flavourings of sexism, homophibia, and stupidity? Have you ever seen "How I Met Your Mother" where the principle character is a sexist, quasi homophobic character, played by a gay man in real life: Neal Patrick Harris? Real eye opener of an episode I saw last night, I can tell you. I've liked Neal Patrick Harris as an actor for years, but won't be visiting that show any time soon.

Look, I get it. It's important to have a critical eye with queer-themed episodes on mainstream shows like Law and Order. I totally get it. But, was it ALL bad? was it ALL inaccurate? Is it wrong to GASP, have queer violent perps. showcased on TV?

Here's my personal malfunction, Cyclo: as a survivor of non-consensual date rape by a lesbian in the late '90's it's important for me to see some accuracy (and therefore, some portrayal) of this very hidden facet of our community .

And that brings me to perhaps the best line in the whole episode. If there's a "take away" from this ep. it's here:

Like B.D Wong's character stated "Like everyone else, it all boils down to the individual. Which is why gays and lesbians are not immune to domestic violence, substance abuse, rape... just more proof that we're all equal

In 2009, I had to explain to family members (intelligent but straight family members) that yes, domestic violence can exist between two men, just like it can exist between two women (or female born). I didn't come out to them about my date rape because it would have been too hard for them to grasp "how" and "why". I had to explain to them just exactly how 'normal' (and by that, I kinda mean how fucked up) we all are.

I've told and will continue to tell anyone who might be questioning or coming out, that there's no sacredness to loving women (or wimmin/womyn/ etc if you prefer). Just because the majority of us here were born with vaginas (and still possess them) doesn't mean we are on some sort of higher plane of existence, intellectualism, altruism or any of that sort of nonsense.

We're people. The good and the bad, the ying and yang.

I'm not saying there's not a patriarchical society, the fuckedupness of masculinity paraded as 'more-than'.... (heck that's felt in queer circles, but I'm sure you're aware of this, yes?)

sometimes it's just about the heart. The heart wants what the heart wants.

oh, P.S. thanks for showing that hot gay kiss though. I might start watching OZ again.

[Jess]

I tend to agree with more of what Chris laid out as how I viewed the show. I haven't had coffee yet so not really able to find words that make sense, however, I thought for a one hour program they were able to make mention of a great many aspects of being "lesbian" or queer in todays society.
Most importantly that we are all different and should be seen as equal to straights.

[suebee]

I tend to agree with more of what Chris laid out as how I viewed the show. I haven't had coffee yet so not really able to find words that make sense, however, I thought for a one hour program they were able to make mention of a great many aspects of being "lesbian" or queer in todays society.
Most importantly that we are all different and should be seen as equal to straights.

I think they tried to include too many sub-sets of the lesbian community without enough attention paid to any one to enable those unfamiliar with them to come to any kind of understanding. The one agressive in the show was a pretty good example of that. The only saving grace was Dr. Huang's comment that Papa C quoted above, and that was MUCH too little.

All in all, not a great show: neither in terms of representing us, nor in terms of entertainment value.

[TIMBERWOLF]

and I wasnt even Kissed...

but neither was Marisa...

OH but HE was kissed...

and the flaming lesbo was iced down and refried into a bisexual....

personally there is nothing wrong with bisexuals in my book. My ANGER is that they marketed to and targeted lesbians and the show was hyped as having a lesbian kiss segment

and the video promo I saw, the gals DID kiss..but oh no not tonight...

I am boycotting SVU..... they lost my loyalty...

damn..this was worse than when my batteries ran out...

:mad:
Yes I was disappointed only because they hyped it up and i saw the you tube but at the "kiss" they shaved it off like she missed.But then gave the guy at the end a big kisser. I will still watch SVU because i like the show but yeah they should have left the full kiss in.
Anyways have to jump in for a shower and get out on the road....later
TIMBER

[Jess]

I think they tried to include too many sub-sets of the lesbian community without enough attention paid to any one to enable those unfamiliar with them to come to any kind of understanding. The one agressive in the show was a pretty good example of that. The only saving grace was Dr. Huang's comment that Papa C quoted above, and that was MUCH too little.

All in all, not a great show: neither in terms of representing us, nor in terms of entertainment value.


Well, I guess it's all in the entertainment vs education factor. I think that the point of making an effort to show anything other than the typical "girl on girl for male viewing pleasure", is a huge step on the part of the writer's, producers, etc. They didn't HAVE to do anything. My guess is that "someone" on the show is trying to point out some basic issues facing the LGBTQIA (or whatever all the letters are now) community.

So, for what it is worth, I tip my hat to them for trying. The world has a long way to go in seeing us as similar instead of "other" and even baby steps are good for me. I do agree that depending on how it is seen/ interpreted it could be good or bad, just like any other subject.

Personally I think the missing "kiss" is fine. It would have just been viewed as gratuitous as I see it.

At any rate.. very interesting to see our "own" take on the episode. :)

[Andrew, Jr.]

I am so disappointed in the show. It wasn't what I expected the show to be. It is Hollywood, and a ratings game.

[apretty]

i don't even watch that show, not even if they had super gay cowboy ice skating would i watch that show.

throw some queers on something that i already watch--like reruns of arrested development (on IFC!). what.

YouTube- Tobias Funke Analyst and Therapist

[Gemme]

I think that they did okay in showing that DV can happen in a same sex relationship. I'm very glad that the story unfolded in such a way that Mitch was not responsible for Alissa's death. THAT, I believe, would have been detrimental.

I didn't care for the 'stay outside' comment they left in but, all in all, I see that there was some effort made and I can appreciate that. Do I think any of us could have done better? Absolutely. I wonder if they had a consultant while they were filming that episode?

Oh, and did anyone actually pay attention to the actors and actresses that were included in the rally scenes? There was a smorgasbord of examples of our diversity as a community in those scenes. That, I also appreciated.