Salon de Femme--aut delectare aut prodesse est [Archive]

Arwen

11-05-2009, 08:34 AM

From Wikipedia:

A salon is a gathering of intellectual, social, political, and cultural elites under the roof of an inspiring hostess or host, partly to amuse one another and partly to refine their taste and increase their knowledge through conversation. These gatherings often consciously following Horace's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace) definition of the aims of poetry, "either to please or to educate" ("aut delectare aut prodesse est"). The salons, commonly associated with French literary and philosophical salons of the 17th century and 18th century, were carried on until quite recently in urban settings among like-minded people of a 'set': many 20th-century salons could be instanced.

Now, I don't know that we are the cultural elite, but I do know that we amuse and inspire one another by our similarities and differences.

Let's use this thread as a way to gather with one another and learn from one another.

I'm sure we will have other threads pop up for sporty femmes and high femmes and femmes with high heels and femmes in sneakers. How about we make this thread a place to welcome one another in all our guises of femme?

We can throw out questions for discussions and move from there. Sound good?

First question:

So if femme is a label, what does that label look like on you? Not what do you think that label should look like, but how do you express the uniqueness of being femme in our community?

P.to the S. Any one of us can pitch a question so please do. Answer the ones you like. Ignore the ones you don't.

So come to the Salon! There's tea, coffee, wine, cosmos and more at the virtual bar. Food too.

IrishGrrl

11-05-2009, 08:36 AM

Oh lordy...you mentioned cocktails..Pinkie will be here realllllllll soon! :D

Arwen

11-05-2009, 08:38 AM

I know, right? So jump in! What does femme look like on you, darlin'?

IrishGrrl

11-05-2009, 08:46 AM

Oh! Femme on me looks like...........whatever the cat dragged in at this very moment. LOL I stayed up ALL night...for some reason. My head is banging away, and my eyes they are a burnin'.

I'll be back later this evening, and by that time hopefully femme will look a helluva lot better on ME!

Pass the wine sister!

Arwen

11-05-2009, 08:48 AM

LOLOLOL

Femme on me usually looks like no makeup and comfy clothes. So I'm good with what the cat drug in.

No more wine for me today. I had plenty last night!

PinkieLee

11-05-2009, 08:52 AM

Arwen

11-05-2009, 08:55 AM

Did someone mention cocktails?! hahaha :p

Arwen, the Salon de Femme is a fabulous idea! What better way to come together by celebrating our differences and basking in our similarities. Femme bonding is so good for the soul...

Darlin', I agree. I have to tell you that when I first saw you in person I was like "Oh chit. I'll never ever look that good. I'm toast. I'm not femme. SHE'S FEMME."

Grin. And then eventually I realized we are all femme in our own way and our own right! So that's what this is about.

I think it is safe to say femmes drive Mercedes and Vans and VW's and Tractors and Buses and whatever the heck we want to drive.

Femmes wear dresses and pantyhose and crew socks and hockey shirts and baseball caps and whatever the heck we want to wear.

Femme Manifesto is that we ARE the femme. So there!

PinkieLee

11-05-2009, 08:59 AM

Let's see, what femme looks like on me...

PHYISICALLY ~ I'm a master of the many different looks of Tonya. Whether whored up in hair extensions & heels, a baseball cap & blue jeans or capris and flip flops. That's the beauty in being femme! Your outward appearence may always change ~ but the essence that is femme will always shine through like a bright light!

Arwen

11-05-2009, 09:44 AM

blush

11-05-2009, 05:36 PM

Puplove

11-05-2009, 07:52 PM

Merde! Maintenant je dois apprendre le français!

Je suis femme, donc femme, c'est moi.

Où est le champagne?

Amour de Chien

Selenay

11-05-2009, 08:12 PM

First question:

So if femme is a label, what does that label look like on you? Not what do you think that label should look like, but how do you express the uniqueness of being femme in our community?

P.to the S. Any one of us can pitch a question so please do. Answer the ones you like. Ignore the ones you don't.

The femme label is stamped right on my ass so that if you don't like it, you don't have to go far to kiss it. You can see it in the heels I buy but never wear, you can see it in my hair--especially when my hair is frizzy and untamed.

My femme looks like a "What-Are-You-Lookin-At-Asshole?" smirk, and like a quirked eyebrow. My femme oozes sexuality and humour. Half the sugar, twice the spice.

My femme is the kind that people laugh at when I comment about crying over a broken nail, but the kind that can be counted on to pick you up when you're down.

I live like so.

Arwen

11-05-2009, 10:39 PM

Eh, it's not a label for me. It's not really my gender either. It just is, yanno. And it looks pretty damn tired today!

I have to admit that I've never grasped the concept of femme as a gender. But if it is not a label for you and it is not a gender, what is it? :)

Merde! Maintenant je dois apprendre le français!

Je suis femme, donc femme, c'est moi.

Où est le champagne?

Amour de Chien

Danged show off. Yes, we are helping you keep up your French lessons. Can you tell us more about what is and isn't femme to you? Booze is on the bar. And I love the Puplove too.

I have no idea how wrong or right I am. lol

My femme is the kind that people laugh at when I comment about crying over a broken nail, but the kind that can be counted on to pick you up when you're down.

I live like so.

And this was a FABULOUS manifesto, Selly. Really liked this. :)

I love that we are all here and we are all so different in how we approach this question!

Puplove

11-05-2009, 11:10 PM

Danged show off. Yes, we are helping you keep up your French lessons. Can you tell us more about what is and isn't femme to you? Booze is on the bar. And I love the Puplove too.

I have no idea how wrong or right I am. lol

I have an idea on how wrong you are....you are just....wrong. I am just....kidding. Hooker.

I said I am femme; femme means me - or something like that. I could be saying my mother is a sausage.

To me femme is who I am - more than a gender, it is an orientation that transcends queer. Is femme defined by being the counterpart to butch? I think in some ways it does, the same way lesbian defines as being the match for another lesbian...??? But it means much more than that - it is an awareness of self, a strength, an existence that is much more powerful than being a female because I earned my place by working toward, growing into and proudly taking ownership of the mix of loving butch, being girly and being strong and capable all at once. And femme does not necessarily include "girly" because the power and strength of femme is defining who you are by what is right for you. And being loved and appreciated for it. And it could mean owning the proud title hooker. :D

Comprenez-vous? Le hee hee hee

Arwen

11-05-2009, 11:18 PM

To me femme is who I am - more than a gender, it is an orientation that transcends queer. Is femme defined by being the counterpart to butch? I think in some ways it does, the same way lesbian defines as being the match for another lesbian...??? But it means much more than that - it is an awareness of self, a strength, an existence that is much more powerful than being a female because I earned my place by working toward, growing into and proudly taking ownership of the mix of loving butch, being girly and being strong and capable all at once. And femme does not necessarily include "girly" because the power and strength of femme is defining who you are by what is right for you. And being loved and appreciated for it. And it could mean owning the proud title hooker. :D

Comprenez-vous? Le hee hee hee

You hit on something I was thinking about on my drive home.

Am I femme because I am attracted to butch energy.

And my end thought was no/yes. :) No, I am not femme simply because I am attracted to butches. Yes, I am femme because butches just do it for me. But I would still be femme even if there were no butches in the world.

I'd just be lonelier, but still femme. I would not change who I am.

Arwen

11-06-2009, 08:20 AM

Question du Jour:Who inspires you? This is not about femme per se but then again it is. Who inspires you to be the woman that you are?

Is it someone you know? Is it a relative? Is it an author? An artist?

Perhaps it is none of that but something else.

So tell the Salon de Femme.

Who inspires you?

Arwen

11-06-2009, 10:27 PM

Question du Jour:Who inspires you? This is not about femme per se but then again it is. Who inspires you to be the woman that you are?

Who inspires me?

I think that this list could go on and on and on but I want to just talk about one right now.

My mama. She was such a strong woman. She divorced my dad when I was 3 (she'd found out he was gay--long story.) Then she raised my sister and I. I learned a lot from her but the one thing that stands out is that she taught me to love without reservation.

That inspires me. It inspires me to be the woman I know I can be.

blush

11-07-2009, 08:39 AM

And my end thought was no/yes. :) No, I am not femme simply because I am attracted to butches. Yes, I am femme because butches just do it for me. But I would still be femme even if there were no butches in the world.

We all hate it when we are reduced down to who we fuck. And it happens so often to femmes in a way that it doesn't to butches/trans. Too often, our "femme-ness" is automatically tied to which type of masculine energy we prefer. It is so debasing.

For me, femme is my descriptor for my energy.

Arwen

11-07-2009, 09:23 AM

We all hate it when we are reduced down to who we fuck. And it happens so often to femmes in a way that it doesn't to butches/trans. Too often, our "femme-ness" is automatically tied to which type of masculine energy we prefer. It is so debasing.

For me, femme is my descriptor for my energy.

Femme as a descriptor for your energy.

Brilliant. Simple and complex and really suits my worldview, blush. Thanks.

I am not sure I agree with you about hating it when I'm reduced down to who I sleep with. In a way, there is some part of me that craves that kind of simplicity.

For me, it's like when I went home when Mama was still alive. I slipped into my labels of daughter/eldest and knew what was expected of me.

There is a part of me that really craves knowing what is expected of me. Now I realize intellectually that's not going to happen all the time. but when I can be around friends who understand what femme is (or at least some version of femme), I find myself just a bit more comfortable in my skin, ya know?

Boots13

11-07-2009, 10:19 AM

I had a long post , spell checked it and it all disappeared :mad:
and now I lost the momentum to throw it all down again !
But in a nutshell
I believe in femme energy. It is that intangible "thing" that draws me. It is that energy that comes from digging a stiletto in, to avoid being trampled or overlooked in a harsh and critical world.
Whether from a femme having to develope a deeper confident sense of self because of the invisibility issue, or simply how she moves in the world
based on her OWN beliefs, desires and interactions. There is that
femme energy that cannot be faked or pushed or canned that is
so wildly attractive and desireable to me.

Desireable as in wanting to be a part of it. Not controlling or assuming (as in assimilation) but as an overlay to who a femme is. And as an overlay to who I am. Friends, lovers, chance meetings ... that femme energy is unmistakeable and a part of my connectness in the world.

Lady Jewel

11-07-2009, 10:32 AM

My sixteen year old daughter Ariel has inspired me since she came screaming into this world and making demands to be heard by all. I have learned to be more fearless, embrace my youthfull side, love deeper and want to be a better person not only for her, but myself. She has encouraged me to take risks and not be afraid of failure. She has taught me to its ok to laugh at myself and to find humor in tough situations. That young woman inspires me daily and I love her for that.

Jewel

Question du Jour:Who inspires you? This is not about femme per se but then again it is. Who inspires you to be the woman that you are?

Is it someone you know? Is it a relative? Is it an author? An artist?

Perhaps it is none of that but something else.

So tell the Salon de Femme.

Who inspires you?

blush

11-07-2009, 06:42 PM

Femme as a descriptor for your energy.

Brilliant. Simple and complex and really suits my worldview, blush. Thanks.

I am not sure I agree with you about hating it when I'm reduced down to who I sleep with. In a way, there is some part of me that craves that kind of simplicity.

For me, it's like when I went home when Mama was still alive. I slipped into my labels of daughter/eldest and knew what was expected of me.

There is a part of me that really craves knowing what is expected of me. Now I realize intellectually that's not going to happen all the time. but when I can be around friends who understand what femme is (or at least some version of femme), I find myself just a bit more comfortable in my skin, ya know?

I get craving that simplicity. That's a beautiful analogy. But for me, the mother/daughter relationship doesn't quite ring true. That's a role, and the expectations are certainly clearly defined. Often those roles are forced upon us, and we love them, hate them, or grow into them. Femme is something I chose how to express.

Does that make sense?

Julie

11-08-2009, 09:20 AM

First question:
So if femme is a label, what does that label look like on you? Not what do you think that label should look like, but how do you express the uniqueness of being femme in our community?

When I came out at the age of 17 (1979), my first love was butch... However, her definition of femme for me, was to be her punching bag, until I was strong enough to not withstand her beatings any longer... This little girl femme broke that big butches jaw, and from that point on, I swore -- Butches were BAD! If butches looked like this to me, what did I as a femme look like to them? I was young, oh so young and thankfully grew within myself to know, femme has many descriptors, as does butch.

Today... I rejoice in the simplest forms of my femme self. Throughout the years, I have lived and loved both butches (soft and oh so hard) and (save me) a femme, and still I remained the femme I am. Regardless of the clothes I wear, or the makeup upon my face, or who I shared my bed with. My gender is femme, my home is that as a lesbian in my community of gay/lesbian/transgender/bi-sexual and my body is that of a woman.

What a great place Arwen... Thank you for opening the dialogue.

Julie

Bit

11-08-2009, 10:32 AM

What does Femme look like on me, and who inspires me? Well, the answer to the first one is way complicated, but the answer to the second is way simple: You inspire me. Every Femme in my community inspires me.

I learned to talk about being Femme in the Queer Female Community, online. I didn't have anything comparable where I was--mostly, I think, from lack of transportation, because certainly there was a Femme presence in Seattle when I was in the PNW!--and finding first the books in the bookstore (The Persistent Desire comes immediately to mind) and then a community online was mind-blowing and life-altering for me. At the point that I outgrew my first community, I was given a link to my second. In the meantime I moved from the PNW to the Midwest to the Southwest back to the Midwest, and the only stability I had through those years of unsettled relationships was my online community.

That's where I did my growing, and that's where I learned my language, and that's where I finally came into my understanding of the kind of Femme that I am.

I still remember my shocked relief when I first understood that it was okay to relax and just be who I always had been. It was so hard in the years when "being a girl" was not okay!! I think this makes me different in some ways from Femmes who have come out after it was okay to be Femme again... if you never feel rejected for your femininity or for your identity, if you never feel rejected for your energy or for your desires, then your experience of being a Femme is going to be more whole than mine has been; you will not have to spend time repairing the broken edges of so much of your inner being, and you will have a better understanding of yourself from the beginning.

Being Femme, for me, is not about what I look like. That's been a huge struggle for me. I have to work hard to quiet my inner fears, my legacy not just of the past when being Femme was not okay, but also my legacy of the years when being Femme was celebrated but ONLY if you matched the look of High Femme. Not only am I no glamor girl, I'm not particularly pretty AND I have to fight the masculinizing effects of PCOS. All of that does a real number on a person who wants to celebrate her femininity.

Before I go any further, I want to say that for me, Femme and femininity are NOT tied as tightly together as for some Femmes. For me, Femme is tied to "femaleness" in very strong ways--but there are lots of ways to be "female" and they are not all stereotypically feminine. I have found that when a Femme is strong and physically capable, willing and able to tackle "men's work," she is OFTEN told she is not Femme enough, or told she is really a Butch, when the truth is she is a most powerful female being and utterly Femme, both at once. The two are inseparable as far as I can see. I have not yet met a Femme who is NOT powerfully female.

I have met Femmes who are not powerfully feminine. They are no less Femmes for that.

I have met Femmes who are not glamor girls, nor not High Femmes. They also are not less Femme for that. Truth be told, I strongly suspect most of us are not into the glamor girl look in every day life, yanno?

And that is also me. Femme on me looks female, inescapably so, and I like to think that my energy comes across feminine--but on any given day, I look like a frump or like a country housewife, like a college student or like a harried mom, like a gardener, like an artist, like someone's grandma, like your neighbor down the street. On any given day I look like just another human being of the female variety.

How am I happiest expressing my Femme energy? With a Butch or Transman. I personally need that connection, not just from a partner but from friends. I feel whole as a Femme when there are Butches and Transmen I can connect with, so that the energy makes a complete circuit.

I also need Femme friends. One of the things I have learned over the years is that straight women will not fill this need. There is a bond between Femmes, a way the energy connects which is, for me, not sexual and yet is still vitally important. It takes both Butch/Trans and Femme energy in my life to give me the foundation I need, to be the community which sustains me. It takes my sister Femmes to make me whole as much as it takes my beloved Butches and Transmen.

Julie

11-08-2009, 10:41 AM

I have found that when a Femme is strong and physically capable, willing and able to tackle "men's work," she is OFTEN told she is not Femme enough, or told she is really a Butch, when the truth is she is a most powerful female being and utterly Femme, both at once. The two are inseparable as far as I can see. I have not yet met a Femme who is NOT powerfully female.

Your words are fluid, Bit... All of them and so much of what you have said, has touched a part of me. The part I quote in particular.

And I cannot agree more, there is a connection among our femme sisters, in which we cannot possibly feel with our straight sisters, at least for me.

Julie

Bit

11-08-2009, 06:09 PM

Oh Julie! The part of my post you quoted? It just kills me. The pain I see in a sister Femme's eyes when she is even invisible to her own people, invisible to her own partner... it kills me. We are not paper dolls, not cookie cutter stereotypes. We're humans and as such we are infinitely varied, even within our similarities.

Thank you for your comments, June. You know, I started out the same way, thinking I was a Femme because Butches turned me on and hey, I really DIDN'T want to be with a man, puzzle solved forever, woooohoooo!! But the more I lived it, the more I discussed it, the more I began to see that I was talking about my very self, the core of who I am.

The core of who I am doesn't depend on anyone else. I'm me no matter what.

And yes *grin* the French is confusing me too, lol...

Puplove

11-09-2009, 09:52 PM

And yes *grin* the French is confusing me too, lol...

Awww...sorry...I was being le snarke' but trying to be funny since the thread is a Salon.

P.S. You said "French" huh huh huhuhuhuh

Arwen

11-09-2009, 11:12 PM

First, a quick welcome to Boots13. Just so you know, butches are welcome here. :) I don't want to have a "femmes only" thread (yet, lol.)

To everyone else, thank you so much. I'm crying reading some of you. Others I nod my head because I know that feeling. Then others of you make me laugh (in a good way.)

Thank you for making this Salon a comfortable place to express ourselves in all of our ways that we do!

So I have a third question for us. (Feel free to answer any of the questions or just speak your piece...it's all good.)

THIRD QUESTION: (this is focusing on the art part of the salon description)

Is there a song or painting or book or poem that is your own personal femme motto/manifesto/creed?

Like maybe Gretchen Phillips "Redneck Woman" or Aine Minogue's "Lady of Shallot" for music?

Perhaps Degas Ballerina's or Rosie the Riveter for art?

Maybe Laura Ingalls Wilder or Jo from Little Women is a fiction heroine of yours?

So, do you have one? Do you need one? Do you want one?

Julie

11-10-2009, 08:25 AM

Arwen... This most recent question has brought back sweet memories of my youth.

I always knew I was different, from that first kiss at age 12, hiding in the bathroom with Liz Wolf -- The girl who burned her eyelashes off, to void her beauty.

My first exposure to understanding who I was, was when I found the book by Quentin Crisp, albeit, not a female bodied femme, but a femme non-the-less. Quentin wrote his memoir "The Naked Civil Servant," I must have been 17 when I read this, and it opened my eyes, to what the world perhaps had in store for us. When I moved to New York in my early 20's, I looked him up in the phone book and telephoned, thanked him for his gifts, and was invited for tea. He will and always has remained with me in my spirit.

Finally... Who could not resist the words of the brilliant Radclyffe Hall (The Well of Loneliness). Yet another brilliant and strong force in this world of ours. I still have this quote and carry it with me always.

"You're neither unnatural, nor abominable, nor mad; you're as much a part of what people call nature as anyone else; only you're unexplained as yet -- you've not got your niche in creation.
~ The Well of Loneliness, 1928 "
— Radclyffe Hall

Let their memories live on within us.

Julie

Julie

11-10-2009, 08:31 AM

Oh Julie! The part of my post you quoted? It just kills me. The pain I see in a sister Femme's eyes when she is even invisible to her own people, invisible to her own partner... it kills me. We are not paper dolls, not cookie cutter stereotypes. We're humans and as such we are infinitely varied, even within our similarities.

Open your eyes, do you not see me? How many times I have thought these words... And sadly, these words in my mind have been given life from those who say they have loved me the most. It's so sad really, but what we must learn to do, is open our eyes and see ourselves -- tricky at times, for most of us long to be seen and acknowledged as the beautiful, brilliant and strong femmes we are.

Julie

Arwen

11-10-2009, 09:05 AM

My first exposure to understanding who I was, was when I found the book by Quentin Crisp, albeit, not a female bodied femme, but a femme non-the-less. Quentin wrote his memoir "The Naked Civil Servant," I must have been 17 when I read this, and it opened my eyes, to what the world perhaps had in store for us. When I moved to New York in my early 20's, I looked him up in the phone book and telephoned, thanked him for his gifts, and was invited for tea. He will and always has remained with me in my spirit.

This was so lovely. Thank you very much for sharing! I have not read that book. I'm thinking that I should!

I am so impressed that you met Quentin Crisp. WOW. What was that like? That's so amazing.

And Radclyffe Hall....sigh...I need to reread that. When I was first coming out, a friend handed me two books and told me to read them at the same time. She recommended one chapter of each.

Well of Loneliness and RubyFruit Jungle.

An odd combination to say the least, but they balanced one another quite well. I think if I'd read Well by itself, I might have .... Well who knows what I might have.

Bit

11-10-2009, 09:13 AM

Ahh, Arwen, you do ask difficult questions... I thought I couldn't answer this one. Seriously, the only thing I could think of was "lil bit" and that's just patently ridiculous... so I mentioned it to Gryph and Nick. And then a comment Gryph made about Gloria Gaynor's song, "I am Who I Am" made me recognize that I actually DO have something like you're asking about, but it isn't about how to be Femme, exactly.... and it isn't about Gloria Gaynor, either.

Tis Albert, in the Broadway version of La Cage Aux Folles... to that point of the musical, Albert has been nothing but a caricature, "aging queen shallowly seeking after troublesome drama-laden attention."

Then his partner asks him to leave the house while the potential in-laws visit.... and Albert is suddenly revealed as a complex, deep character, vulnerable and deeply hurt, and we realize that the caricature is merely the face he shows to the world to protect his inner being. His defiant, aching, deep understanding of this world and his place in it, of what it takes to claim a place in it, of what it costs to compromise his place in it, is revealed in this one long moment of song--and although he resumes his caricature afterward and maintains it for the rest of the show, WE are changed and can never see him so shallowly again.

THAT version of "I Am Who I Am" has informed my life as a Femme, whether I was living with partners who believed that my being Femme cast them into highly resented "roles" as Butches or whether they believed my being Femme "contaminated" them with too much femininity. That version and the vision of Albert singing it--along with "A Little More Mascara"--sustained me through the long hard years when I was caged myself, living a lie in my mother's folly, desperately aware of my place in the world and what the compromise was costing me.

You could say that the songs are about being queer, not Femme. You could say that they sustained me as a queer being, not specifically as a Femme. You might be right---but me, I cannot separate out "queer" from "Femme" in myself. For me, to be one is to be the other, inescapably so; and that, I think, is the point of the music also, that for Albert, to be queer was to be a performing queen. He could not separate out the two, either.

In some way, those two concepts are the same. The caricature of queerness he presented to everyone may have been the shield and armor that protected his inmost deep and complex being, but it was also his gift to the world, his wryly humorous presentation of a core queer femininity.... and what is lil bit, if not my own wryly humorous version of a core queer femininity?

I am who I am, a queer Femme being coping with an often hostile world, and from Albert I have learned to celebrate every part of that as often as possible and to cling, stubbornly and without apology, to what is truly authentic no matter how I might decide to present it--and no matter how anyone else, even a partner, might receive it.

Julie

11-10-2009, 10:01 AM

This was so lovely. Thank you very much for sharing! I have not read that book. I'm thinking that I should!

I am so impressed that you met Quentin Crisp. WOW. What was that like? That's so amazing.

And Radclyffe Hall....sigh...I need to reread that. When I was first coming out, a friend handed me two books and told me to read them at the same time. She recommended one chapter of each.

Well of Loneliness and RubyFruit Jungle.

An odd combination to say the least, but they balanced one another quite well. I think if I'd read Well by itself, I might have .... Well who knows what I might have.

Arwen,

Quentin Crisp was truly brilliant in every aspect of his being. When I telephoned he was taken aback, here was this young woman who just wanted to say thank you, and really what he told me upon meeting him... He thought he had been forgotten. He knew his messages were important, but he did not think the youth of today (then) would understand. How wrong he was.

He did inform me, I did not know how to apply eyeshadow and suggested a vivid blue, which would go nicely with my green eyes. He had a humor, wit and sarcasm about him, which has gone untouched and a warmth which was not deliberate. He was much smaller than I had imagined he would be, and still he wore his hair perfectly coiffed and applied his makeup which sheer precision. I wish I had taken a photograph of us, but I was pretty much in shock to be sitting in his dining room. He must have been in his early 70's then.

I was given the same two books as you. I need to read Radclyffe Hall again, but think I will pass on Rubyfruit Jungle, I never really got that book, maybe now that I am older, I will. Perhaps...

Julie

Semantics

11-10-2009, 06:29 PM

This is a great topic and I've really enjoyed reading everyone's contributions so far.

You hit on something I was thinking about on my drive home.

Am I femme because I am attracted to butch energy.

And my end thought was no/yes. :) No, I am not femme simply because I am attracted to butches. Yes, I am femme because butches just do it for me. But I would still be femme even if there were no butches in the world.

I'd just be lonelier, but still femme. I would not change who I am.

I hate to define myself as I relate to another person, but I've often wondered how much of the femme in me is in part defined by my deep need for a certain kind of counterpart.

But, as you said, I would still be femme if there were no butches in the world.

It took me a long time to embrace the identity of femme. To decide and feel for myself what the term actually meant to me personally.
In the beginning, I had to take "femme" and separate it from everything I despise about how society in general uses emphasized femininity to perpetuate male domination over women. That was a personal struggle.

Somehow my life inside the queer community made me feel powerful enough to embrace my femme self and to define myself in a way that I'm comfortable with. I think, in part, it was being around butches who also thumbed their noses at society’s norms. It was also from being around other femmes who took the power to define for themselves. Here, in this community, I don’t have to reject the girlyness that makes me feel less powerful in broader society. Here, being a femme doesn’t assign me to a lower status.

Being a femme has given me the power to be as feminine on the outside as I feel on the inside and not feel disadvantaged.

I'm a femme in my little black dress.
I'm a femme in my soccer mom get up.
I'd still be a femme if I decided to dress up in my lover's men's jeans, boots, and button up flannel shirts.

Selenay

11-10-2009, 06:43 PM

THIRD QUESTION: (this is focusing on the art part of the salon description)

Is there a song or painting or book or poem that is your own personal femme motto/manifesto/creed?

They say I'm a beast.
And feast on it. When all along
I thought that's what a woman was.

They say I'm a bitch.
Or witch. I've claimed
the same and never winced.

They say I'm a macha, hell on wheels,
viva-la-vulva, fire and brimstone,
man-hating, devastating,
boogey-woman lesbian.
Not necessarily,
but I like the compliment.

The mob arrives with stones and sticks
to maim and lame and do me in.
All the same, when I open my mouth,
they wobble like gin.

Diamonds and pearls
tumble from my tongue.
Or toads and serpents.
Depending on the mood I'm in.

I like the itch I provoke.
The rustle of rumor
like crinoline.

I am the woman of myth and bullshit.
(True. I authored some of it.)
I built my house of ill repute.
Brick by brick. Labored,
loved and masoned it.

I live like so.
Heart as sail, ballast, rudder, bow.
Rowdy. Indulgent to excess.
My sin and success--
I think of me to gluttony.

By all accounts I am
a danger to society.
I'm Pancha Villa.

I break laws,
upset the natural order,
anguish the Pope and make fathers cry.
I am beyond the jaw of law.
I'm la desperada, most-wanted public enemy.
My happy picture grinning from the wall.

I strike terror among the men.
I can't be bothered what they think.
¡Que se vayan a la ching chang chong!
For this, the cross, the Calvary.
In other words, I'm anarchy.

I'm an aim-well,
shoot-sharp,
sharp-tongued,
sharp-thinking,
fast-speaking,
foot-loose,
loose-tongued,
let-loose,
woman-on-the-loose
loose woman.
Beware, honey.

I'm Bitch. Beast. Macha.
¡Wáchale!
Ping! Ping! Ping!
I break things.

Arwen

11-10-2009, 10:30 PM

After moving for most of the day, I have utterly no brain cells left. I just wanted to say that I really love what is happening in this thread. Bit, Albert is one of my faves. Great correlation! Semantics, uh huh! uh huh! :) Julie, I'm still jealous. Selly, I LOVE that poem! Wow. I need to look her up, don't I!

Anyone can post a question, by the way. I like the ongoing discussions very much.

blush

11-10-2009, 10:48 PM

THIRD QUESTION: (this is focusing on the art part of the salon description)

Is there a song or painting or book or poem that is your own personal femme motto/manifesto/creed?

Like maybe Gretchen Phillips "Redneck Woman" or Aine Minogue's "Lady of Shallot" for music?

Perhaps Degas Ballerina's or Rosie the Riveter for art?

Maybe Laura Ingalls Wilder or Jo from Little Women is a fiction heroine of yours?

So, do you have one? Do you need one? Do you want one?

Stone Butch Blues...

Passionaria

11-10-2009, 11:08 PM

From Wikipedia:

A salon is a gathering of intellectual, social, political, and cultural elites under the roof of an inspiring hostess or host, partly to amuse one another and partly to refine their taste and increase their knowledge through conversation. These gatherings often consciously following Horace's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace) definition of the aims of poetry, "either to please or to educate" ("aut delectare aut prodesse est"). The salons, commonly associated with French literary and philosophical salons of the 17th century and 18th century, were carried on until quite recently in urban settings among like-minded people of a 'set': many 20th-century salons could be instanced.

First question:

So if femme is a label, what does that label look like on you? Not what do you think that label should look like, but how do you express the uniqueness of being femme in our community?[/B]

Arwen,
What a beautiful mouthful this is. Eloquent and inspiring. I will never see the word SALON the same again.

How does femme look on me?? I would confess to being in the midst of reconstruction. I'm not what I was, or yet what I have set out to be. Lot's of changes, is that not part of the Karmic re-balancing that happens when we move to Austin? Sometimes I feel as though I am being boiled down to my finest essence here. My question would be isn't it time to bottle and sell this already?????? Ah the journey not the destination, right?hmmmmmmm.

As far as labeling the product? I am leaning toward the fierce Femme notion. Fiercely Feminine, with out apology. I know I am tired of being good, and that the delicious notion of being naughty, as in very, would be a welcome addition to the menu..........We will see how this emerges.xoxoxo more soon.
~Pashi

Arwen

11-11-2009, 07:57 AM

Stone Butch Blues...

I have not read this nor have I read Butch Is A Noun. I need to correct that though! :)

I'd love to hear how this speaks to your femme self, Blush. Because I haven't read it, I'm clueless.

This is not to say I won't still be clueless after I've read it. HA

Arwen,
What a beautiful mouthful this is. Eloquent and inspiring. I will never see the word SALON the same again.

How does femme look on me?? I would confess to being in the midst of reconstruction. I'm not what I was, or yet what I have set out to be. Lot's of changes, is that not part of the Karmic re-balancing that happens when we move to Austin? Sometimes I feel as though I am being boiled down to my finest essence here. My question would be isn't it time to bottle and sell this already?????? Ah the journey not the destination, right?hmmmmmmm.

As far as labeling the product? I am leaning toward the fierce Femme notion. Fiercely Feminine, with out apology. I know I am tired of being good, and that the delicious notion of being naughty, as in very, would be a welcome addition to the menu..........We will see how this emerges.xoxoxo more soon.
~Pashi

I love the idea of reconstruction. I've been remodeling myself for about three-four years now. I am stripping away the wallpapers of conformity to find the wood that is my true self.

And I've loved the idea of Salons for a long time. They were very big in England. And they are a great plot device in a lot of my historical romances. LOL

Here's to your Fierce Femme selves, all y'all!

PinkieLee

11-11-2009, 08:50 AM

So I have a third question for us. (Feel free to answer any of the questions or just speak your piece...it's all good.)

THIRD QUESTION: (this is focusing on the art part of the salon description)

Is there a song or painting or book or poem that is your own personal femme motto/manifesto/creed?

Like maybe Gretchen Phillips "Redneck Woman" or Aine Minogue's "Lady of Shallot" for music?

Perhaps Degas Ballerina's or Rosie the Riveter for art?

Maybe Laura Ingalls Wilder or Jo from Little Women is a fiction heroine of yours?

So, do you have one? Do you need one? Do you want one?

Especially on those days when I'm feeling down or invisible, Maya Angelou's words speak to me, to remind me about the power I have as a woman! Sometimes, I think we all need to be reminded of that, too...

Phenomenal Woman - Maya Angelou

Pretty women wonder where my secret lies.
I'm not cute or built to suit a fashion model's size
But when I start to tell them,
They think I'm telling lies.

I say,
It's in the reach of my arms
The span of my hips,
The stride of my step,
The curl of my lips.
I'm a woman
Phenomenally.
Phenomenal woman,
That's me.

I walk into a room
Just as cool as you please,
And to a man,
The fellows stand or
Fall down on their knees.
Then they swarm around me,
A hive of honey bees.

I say,
It's the fire in my eyes,
And the flash of my teeth,
The swing in my waist,
And the joy in my feet.
I'm a woman
Phenomenally.
Phenomenal woman,
That's me.

Men themselves have wondered
What they see in me.
They try so much
But they can't touch
My inner mystery.
When I try to show them
They say they still can't see.

I say,
It's in the arch of my back,
The sun of my smile,
The ride of my breasts,
The grace of my style.
I'm a woman
Phenomenally.
Phenomenal woman,
That's me.

Now you understand
Just why my head's not bowed.
I don't shout or jump about
Or have to talk real loud.
When you see me passing
It ought to make you proud.

I say,
It's in the click of my heels,
The bend of my hair,
the palm of my hand,
The need of my care,
'Cause I'm a woman
Phenomenally.
Phenomenal woman,
That's me.

Arwen

11-11-2009, 08:54 AM

Oh Pinkie! I love Maya Angelou. What a great piece to be inspired by. :)

Bit

11-11-2009, 09:38 AM

Phenomenal Woman is another one of those great pieces that's become part of my Femme Attitude, so to speak. I've loved it for a long time. Thanks for posting it, Pinkie!

Arwen

11-13-2009, 08:50 AM

Let's be lighthearted for Friday, shall we? This question is for smiles and grins and giffles, I hope.

FOURTH QUESTION: What is the color of lipstick or nailpolish that makes you feel femme or think "gee she's really femme" when you see it on someone else. :)

Arwen

11-23-2009, 11:59 AM

PinkieLee

11-23-2009, 01:21 PM

Another discussion question:

What do you do that makes you feel decadently, unabashedly, fabulously femme?

Is it strapping on a dildo?
Is it painting your nails?
Is it fixing a car?
Is it baking a cake?

What is it for you?

Honestly for me... it's when I am surrounded by other femmes. Sometimes I feel like everyday life, of living in the sterotypical "lesbian" bubble in my local community, seems to suck my femme mojo. Being around my femme friends and sisters lets my energy shine bright ~ I think that we bring it out in eachother! That is when I feel FABULOUS!

Arwen

11-25-2009, 09:51 AM

Honestly for me... it's when I am surrounded by other femmes. Sometimes I feel like everyday life, of living in the sterotypical "lesbian" bubble in my local community, seems to suck my femme mojo. Being around my femme friends and sisters lets my energy shine bright ~ I think that we bring it out in eachother! That is when I feel FABULOUS!

What a terrific thought. Do you feel like you "femme down" when not around those of us who do embrace you as the gorgeous, sexy femme you are?

For me I feel the most femme when I am doing my "secret" girl routines. Not that they are secret and not that no one else does them...just that for me they make me feel special. And they can be really mundane things like shaving or putting on lipstick, you know?

I had an ex who loved watching me put on makeup. Said it made hym "happy" in all the euphemistic sense there. grin. That made me feel quite femme, you know. :)

Medusa

11-25-2009, 10:21 AM

Now how did I miss this fabulous thread?! :moonstars:

Arwen

11-25-2009, 10:24 AM

Now how did I miss this fabulous thread?! :moonstars:

:bigcry: I made it for YOU and see how you are! You never call. You never write. You never lend me your clothes. You never lend me your husband... :bigcry: or your dog even!

PinkieLee

11-25-2009, 01:29 PM

What a terrific thought. Do you feel like you "femme down" when not around those of us who do embrace you as the gorgeous, sexy femme you are?

It's not as though I "femme down" around my local community. My femme energy is always there ~ I just gets referred to as "the girly girl". Most of the local community here equates feminine with femme. Yeah, they honestly don't understand that femme is more than appearance.

For me I feel the most femme when I am doing my "secret" girl routines. Not that they are secret and not that no one else does them...just that for me they make me feel special. And they can be really mundane things like shaving or putting on lipstick, you know?

I had an ex who loved watching me put on makeup. Said it made hym "happy" in all the euphemistic sense there. grin. That made me feel quite femme, you know. :)

I'm glad to see that your "secret" girl routines help keep your fabulous femme self feeling just that. It is the little things in life that keep us balanced and a way to stay connected with ourselves. Good for you honey!! :bouquet:

blush

11-28-2009, 10:14 AM

[QUOTE=Arwen;3229]I have not read this nor have I read Butch Is A Noun. I need to correct that though! :)

I'd love to hear how this speaks to your femme self, Blush. Because I haven't read it, I'm clueless.

This is not to say I won't still be clueless after I've read it. HA

I related to the author's description of femmes' inner lives, interactions, and relationships with each other.

blush

11-28-2009, 10:22 AM

Bit

11-28-2009, 11:59 AM

I've been having some trouble with this.... okay. A lot of trouble. I can't seem to articulate what makes me feel "Femme."

I can tell you what makes me feel sexy--being around Butches. What makes me feel feminine--getting dressed up. What makes me feel like a girl--being around Da---er, wait a minute, lol, I always feel like a girl whether anyone else is around or not...

Yanno, I think that's the heart of it. I always feel like a Femme, too. Nothing changes it, nothing makes it more or less, nothing brings it forward or pushes it back... being Femme just IS. It's not something I do, it's not something other people can change, it's not something that even needs attention... it's just me, at the bedrock of my being.

I used to worry about it a lot. I've felt utterly inadequate about it, I've felt stupid about it, I've felt gauche and awkward with it---but those have all been responses to others who have judged it. I'm hoping I'm finally beyond that kind of vulnerability and uncertainty.

It helps enormously that a category finally showed up that fits me to a T. The day Gryph called me a "Homespun Femme" I realized that nobody could judge me for being not-good-enough in that category, lol! A Homespun girl doesn't have to perform any kind of gender presentation, doesn't have to conform to anyone else's standards, doesn't have to reform her looks and glam it up for anyone. A Homespun Femme just IS, however she might be in the moment.

Puplove

11-29-2009, 11:24 PM

I've been having some trouble with this.... okay. A lot of trouble. I can't seem to articulate what makes me feel "Femme."

Thanks Bit, you have put into words my feelings and struggle with questions around this topic -- I can't name what makes me feel femme. I just am. What makes me feel like myself? Same question. Just living.
Now, I can name things I appreciate, that make me feel "at home" or joyful, like other femmes or butch appreciation of me -- but I would still be femme and be myself without that. And that can be Homespun Femme or Glitter Femme or Biscuit-n-Gravy-Hair-Extensions Femme or Snark Femme....all are perfectly my true self if I AM being true to myself. No one else can make me more or less (but they can add happiness that they are in my life!)

Arwen

11-29-2009, 11:29 PM

Y'all seriously are the best. I love that this has come up. I think it is very important.

It goes hand in hand with e's thread (Open Letter: Dear Femme).

So how about this...what books do you know that are on the subject of femme?

I know an anthology was just released this year. Has anyone read it? I think it is called Visibility:A Femme Anthology.

Selenay

11-29-2009, 11:42 PM

Princess4u

02-06-2010, 12:45 PM

I know, right? So jump in! What does femme look like on you, darlin'?

well...femme to me isnt a label...but a descriptor of me...like saying i have green eyes a pretty smile and I am femme...I am proud of this description of me...i honour it and adore it...it IS me...it is who and what I am. You couldnt really describe me without saying I am femme.

Princess4u

02-06-2010, 12:48 PM

omg I have come home....ahhhhhh thank you gal pals for being different but yet so similar....!!!!

Lillie

04-22-2010, 02:06 PM

Open your eyes, do you not see me? How many times I have thought these words... And sadly, these words in my mind have been given life from those who say they have loved me the most. It's so sad really, but what we must learn to do, is open our eyes and see ourselves -- tricky at times, for most of us long to be seen and acknowledged as the beautiful, brilliant and strong femmes we are.

Julie

Only halfway through this thread but I am stuck in the gut by these two posts.. I AM NOT INVISIBLE and I am/was treated as such...Loved by those who never saw me!..so hard for anyone to understand those words unless you .. like me have been standing there as they walk right through you!..I cried myself to sleep for far to long..questioning why I wasnt what she/hy use to see anymore..when did I put on the cloak of invisibility? Was it given to me or did I find it on my own..I found myself safe in a place that I was never seen. Ya I hear/heard "I love you baby"..but who exactly was she/hy speaking to? not me!..at me..not to me..words that bound me to stay..fear of being alone kept me..and then always falling into the mindset of "oh this isn't so bad, I have a nice house and a tolerable life.." how do you find your way out of that? how do you become visable again? How do you without feeling selfish in your choice? she/hy is quite content to live this way..no passion, no desire.. I N V I S A B I L I T Y. is NOT a superpower..it is the opposite..it rendered/s me powerLESS..I am not very articulate in my posts because I type as I think..so sorry for that lol..It was a tuff place to be..but fear kept me..common sense made me leap!..and It was fabulous!

As far as femme identity.. I have always been feminine to the extreme..at least thats what they told me..I do not like to get my hands/fingernails dirty..but I have no problem getting my freak on after mudbogging!. BUT.its by choice lol..I prefer to stay clean and proper for hym..but hy doesnt always want me that way either..Im flawed just like every other human..male or female that walks this earth..but being femme for me..It is who I am not what I am..Yes I get a mani/pedi..yes I love to be pampered by hym..but I am just as comfortable in my good ole "come fuck me pumps" as I am in my pink flip flops!..I wear a baseball cap to hide a bad hair day lol..and I take extra time to to fix my hair when I wnt..I am quite capable of running to the store w/o makeup on..althought this is not my preferred way..I am a mother and I work and I do live in the REAL world where not everythingis perfect.. .I believe at least for me ..its in my manurisms..I think standing next to any butch it is very obvious how my community will identify me.because most people need that..I identify with it because It really is who I am..I am FEMMenine woman who likes.the contrast between the feminine and masculine woman it is a huge turn on for me..its what makes me always take that second look at a fine looking butch..Their dynamic is sexy and appealing and confident!..

People who don't like lables are not wrong or incorrect for thinking they dont..but for me..I am indifferent..I don't really care..
after all I do have a bumper sticker that reads "you say im a bitch like its a bad thing" HEY i have earned it lol..so..peace out on that!

and I do also agree with the femme sister thingy!...I have a few straight female friends..but I am most comfortable in my own community with my gay friends..its an unspoken understanding..and half the time with my straight friends it turns into Gay lessons 101..it can be exhausting explaing any dynamic..lol

sorry for this ridiculously long post..I love coming here and totally being me..as random as I am..

I love my life..more each day!
Lillie