View Full Version : The Strong Butch Female/Woman in a Patriarchal World
Revel in your strength... there's nothing weak about a female and/or women who flips a bird to the naysayers, the peer pressure, binary expectations and walks into "a mans world" every single day with masculinity and a proud swagger to boot without giving up any part of being respected as a female and/or women. This is a space is for rapping about living life openly as a female and/or woman who holds by societal standards "too much" masculinity for the world to be comfortable with... and how we deal with the good the bad and the just plain ugly that comes our way.
The world we live in already is inherently deeply mired in misogyny and sexism, fallacies of masculinity and who owns/wears the boxers and who owns/wears the panties in the arena of the sexes. Sexist innuendo based on a patriarchy's cultural misnomers that women can't be masculine, can't wear the boxers and if they do it's easier to understand if they claim man in them. When we speak and take space in the outside world and in our own communities it's often challenged, we're often put to task to explain as to reason or need, considered insubordinate radicals, wave-makers, put on the defensive, patrolled... insecurities abound.
For good reason? Perhaps... because the patriarchy has something to defend... has something to lose. Something that seemingly has to be taken as it's been proven it not going to be graciously given, and females/women are more than able, and less than willing to be bullied out of it. I find even we here in our own communities we haven't escaped it and it's even more ridiculous, frankly sad to see it played out in LBGQT, Butch Femme communities.
I think something that's not recognized is that Butch Women/Female ID face a special unique set of challenges internally in (but not just limited too) struggling to integrate who we are against binary and patriarchal teachings masculinity = man, but also outwardly/externally being recognized in for both masculinity and female/women simultaneously and seamlessly. It isn't an easy road to navigate or explain. In the real world our women-hood is challenged and we often find ourselves on the outside of women looking in, in Butch Femme communities our masculinity is challenged and we find ourselves relegated a lesser form of masculinity, put on a spectrum, and often replied to with masculine pronoun by default. Is this so bad? It is when it's shrugged off and treated as not as important an issue, not equally offensive or defended as intensely as a male being called a women... it is when it's serving to make us less visible just in it's erasure of the s in she... cyberspace and real world.
Add to that the here and there sexist covert remarks from individuals of all identity... I've heard from "I date X-ID only b/c I want to be the only one in bed with the panties" and from... "I don't identify as relate as female because I "- always played with trucks? Only wears man's clothes? Don't feel feminine? Are masculine? Take a masculine role in life/relationships? Guess what!... stand in line, me too.
Something I find a very personal affront, and again making Women or Female ID seem less visible, and seems to act as silencing, is when our experiences are dismissed as less valid or universal. That somehow because we're butches and we're all born female with masculinity, that it's been the same for XYZ... the "don't forget X's knows what it's like they used to be there too" (except when the shoes on the other foot then their/it's not the same).
I'm sorry but when I'm treated by a patriarchal society like "a woman", treated differently with inequality I don't have the defense of saying (or even thinking) don't treat me that way I'm a man, treat me like a man. It's in no way the same internal experience. I have to take it upon me as an affront on me, not that they've mistaken my gender. I'm the one who has to deal internally with living woman in a mans world, with knowing, yes I am, what they're dissing. I'm the one who'll take that head on from the trenches my entire life.
Bottom line I've looked at that and life through a female existence, a masculine woman's internal space. Yes, there is real experience shared by butches, in treatment we received at a glance from the outside, from strangers... but after that experience is internal perspective and the lens you view the world from. I won't try to claim another's personal experiences as always having viewed the world from a male view, growing up as a boy in a female body if one doesn't try to claim to have looked through my eyes as a female/woman, growing up struggling internally to first understand, then preserve and exert my identity as female when by society standards I acted/behave lived like a boy... and continual fight for my right to do so without being a man or referred to as one... to have my masculinity accepted/respected as valid as a female.
That all trickles down differently, unique perspectives, trials, stories... lived experiences... not a worse or better issue, difference. Maybe this all would be understood better if not dismissed and essentially derailed, droned over by "me too's" that are actually out of place and I often find suspect because of it's sided fashion... "I know what it's like to be you... but you don't know what it's like to be me". Frankly that's not possible.
So... this is about masculinity owned by females/women, those who own it unapologetically without attributing it to anything except who they are as strong Butch Female/Women. Many ID's, certainly some, can relate to some of the experiences here, as we can strongly to some of theirs but this space is intended to discuss our unique perspectives, and as we respect others space, ours is no less valuable and I believe necessary.
That said, I think we have a responsibility to ourselves, and to all women to stand up too, take space, speak on the non-equality in the unique spaces we occupy. If Women ID Female ID butches are treated differently it's solely because of the word women and female... and I can guarantee you the sexist and misogynistic messages aren't focused to just the butches, they extend right though out to all females and women by default.
Ok, to be clear, this is a Butch Female ID and or Butch Woman ID positive space, if you just want to say "I'm a Butch Female (ID) and I don't give a shit what anybody thinks!" say just that. It's about our minds, our bodies, unique experiences, comradery, dead seriousness (and occasional nonsensical general ridiculousness hopefully)... and for supporters and allies of our identity to speak of their own experiences.
This is taking equal space, that we and those who support us come here to find we have some, as I've heard expressed needed... this is not intended to be divisionary. I hope everybody does their best to speak from the "me - I" place and refrain from making judgments about or generalizing others identities. Call me crazy, but, in the end I believe we'd fight together better for our spaces in a homophobic misogynistic world and be a better example if we started by defending each other equally in our own spaces.
Strength and Pride.
Metropolis
*talked out (perhaps for life ; )) but will return*
daisyfm
03-07-2010, 03:40 PM
I am not a Butch. I have been a Femme ally for a very long time, so I understand what you are writing about here. Congrats on starting this thread!
BullDog
03-07-2010, 04:25 PM
Great thread and opening post Metro. How to carve out space as a butch woman? I have found that process to be a very difficult one in butch femme spaces, although I certainly don't think it should be.
Butch women are not a small group of butches sitting around worried that we are about to go extinct, as it is often claimed when butch women speak up about visibility. We are everywhere.
The male defaults for butches are due to sexism. Full stop.
I claim masculinity, but it is specifically within the context of being a woman, a female, and lesbian (and queer). It isn't something I can separate out from being a woman and female in any meaningful way.
I have at times struggled with claiming woman as part of my gender, but never as part of my social existence or as the human beings I most closely claim solidarity with. I am not sure, still, all the reasons for this. I think part of me was over thinking gender, and as Metro said, even butches fully claiming to be female can feel like they are looking at woman from the outside. I am sure there is some internalized sexism in their somewhere as well, no matter how hard I have fought against it.
However, in the face of some very harsh criticism I experienced when speaking up on behalf of butch women visibility within the last couple of years, I have fully reclaimed womanhood for myself. It is very empowering for me and does not at all take away from my butch identity.
To our allies, to me what is important, and what I believe is important to many butch women and female identified butches as well, is that we be recognized not just as masculine beings but as women and females as well. Simultaneously as Metro said. We are not butch lite because we are females and women, and when female and woman disappears from what is seen and acknowledged as butch, it is a very high price to pay.
Great thread and opening post Metro. How to carve out space as a butch woman? I have found that process to be a very difficult one in butch femme spaces, although I certainly don't think it should be.
Butch women are not a small group of butches sitting around worried that we are about to go extinct, as it is often claimed when butch women speak up about visibility. We are everywhere.
The male defaults for butches are due to sexism. Full stop.
I claim masculinity, but it is specifically within the context of being a woman, a female, and lesbian (and queer). It isn't something I can separate out from being a woman and female in any meaningful way.
I have at times struggled with claiming woman as part of my gender, but never as part of my social existence or as the human beings I most closely claim solidarity with. I am not sure, still, all the reasons for this. I think part of me was over thinking gender, and as Metro said, even butches fully claiming to be female can feel like they are looking at woman from the outside. I am sure there is some internalized sexism in their somewhere as well, no matter how hard I have fought against it.
However, in the face of some very harsh criticism I experienced when speaking up on behalf of butch women visibility within the last couple of years, I have fully reclaimed womanhood for myself. It is very empowering for me and does not at all take away from my butch identity.
To our allies, to me what is important, and what I believe is important to many butch women and female identified butches as well, is that we be recognized not just as masculine beings but as women and females as well. Simultaneously as Metro said. We are not butch lite because we are females and women, and when female and woman disappears from what is seen and acknowledged as butch, it is a very high price to pay.
Truth.
Unfortunately what it seems like to me from what I hear on the streets is Female ID'd butches are less likely to invest in spaces that seem to rate butch-ness (often) based on a binary spectrum where openly IDing as a female or women often automatically ends up relegated to the lesser end (being stereotyped). Some peeps just want to chill not feel on the defensive. Doesn't seem it's is a matter of not willing to fight the fight, or lack of numbers, most people just don't hang out if they don't feel supported or feel thought of as less than, it's that simple.
That needs to be changed.
I don't think it's the greater community in the "doing", just that it's less called out... seems like they say the answer is sometimes in the silence.
And then some of us are bull headed, but get tired too.
Ok, I have to run, wood to chop... going to be a cooler week.
Metro
(edited to add : Oh and Jack, it's cedar... ;)
Galahad
03-07-2010, 09:12 PM
Metropolis and Bulldog, Pushing the thanks button just wasn't enough for your posts. HUZZAH you two HUZZAH!!
AtLast
03-07-2010, 09:58 PM
Revel in your strength... there's nothing weak about a female and/or women who flips a bird to the naysayers, the peer pressure, binary expectations and walks into "a mans world" every single day with masculinity and a proud swagger to boot without giving up any part of being respected as a female and/or women. This is a space is for rapping about living life openly as a female and/or woman who holds by societal standards "too much" masculinity for the world to be comfortable with... and how we deal with the good the bad and the just plain ugly that comes our way.
It is exactly this - walking in this mans world daily with pride as a butch woman far too masculine for the mainstream that I find most satisfying as a butch lesbian. Most challenging too, yet something that is at my core and feels complete.
The world we live in already is inherently deeply mired in misogyny and sexism, fallacies of masculinity and who owns/wears the boxers and who owns/wears the panties in the arena of the sexes. Sexist innuendo based on a patriarchy's cultural misnomers that women can't be masculine, can't wear the boxers and if they do it's easier to understand if they claim man in them. When we speak and take space in the outside world and in our own communities it's often challenged, we're often put to task to explain as to reason or need, considered insubordinate radicals, wave-makers, put on the defensive, patrolled... insecurities abound.
And it is these fallacies of masculinitythat I find most disturbing! For butch women, for every identity on the spectrum of butch and for men! there is no such fucking thing as male ego! Ego has no gender! And the Id is not only masculine, nor is the Super Ego mainly female!
For good reason? Perhaps... because the patriarchy has something to defend... has something to lose. Something that seemingly has to be taken as it's been proven it not going to be graciously given, and females/women are more than able, and less than willing to be bullied out of it. I find even we here in our own communities we haven't escaped it and it's even more ridiculous, frankly sad to see it played out in LBGQT, Butch Femme communities.
Yes, it is.. very sad. But, no, we are not going anywhere. We are just as viable as ever.
I think something that's not recognized is that Butch Women/Female ID face a special unique set of challenges internally in (but not just limited too) struggling to integrate who we are against binary and patriarchal teachings masculinity = man, but also outwardly/externally being recognized in for both masculinity and female/women simultaneously and seamlessly. It isn't an easy road to navigate or explain.
The remainder of your OP includes many more points that I hope will be discussed here, but, I have to say that our unique challenges and our simply amazing merging and seamless integration of female and male plays a major role in combating the patriarchal binary which all people ought to be involved in. It dismisses all of us and is predicated on structural and institutional sexisism!
There need be no divisions - we are all fighting the same war....
BullDog
03-08-2010, 10:53 AM
Truth.
Unfortunately what it seems like to me from what I hear on the streets is Female ID'd butches are less likely to invest in spaces that seem to rate butch-ness (often) based on a binary spectrum where openly IDing as a female or women often automatically ends up relegated to the lesser end (being stereotyped). Some peeps just want to chill not feel on the defensive. Doesn't seem it's is a matter of not willing to fight the fight, or lack of numbers, most people just don't hang out if they don't feel supported or feel thought of as less than, it's that simple.
That needs to be changed.
I don't think it's the greater community in the "doing", just that it's less called out... seems like they say the answer is sometimes in the silence.
And then some of us are bull headed, but get tired too.
Ok, I have to run, wood to chop... going to be a cooler week.
Metro
(edited to add : Oh and Jack, it's cedar... ;)
No truer words were spoken.
And the Silence... it's telling.
Going back and reading my post I see some defensiveness, and I think about why there's even a need for it here, but it's here, so why... I think for myself the problem with what we're talking about here is it like bull said, it's especially noticeable in B-F communities (online) and it makes it feel even more personal.
First I'll say, I don't think, (as I said previously) that the greater butch femme community is sexist or misogynistic, but I do though see a lot of stuff slide. And truth, I hear that same complaint from many sides about transphobic remarks, sexist, misogynistic, anti-feminist, homophobic etc.
I think there's an overall phenomenon going on here (more than just being a cross section of humanity) and I don't think it's purposeful... (except where it is).
Seems there's so much in-fighting, covert and open between identities, and allies, that we're stuck defending ourselves against each other and as a result of feeling dissed by X, or not defended... maybe we tend not to defend X.
I started this thread for Female ID, Women ID Butches (and that's what it's going to be about) but that doesn't mean I don't hear the similar cries of foul from other identities just that this is my personal fight.
And, I still feel it's lop-sided, I still feel sexism and misogyny less called out and that feels personal, but perhaps standing along side each other (because despite the in-fighting I still see us as brothers and sisters) we'd get further, learn more about each other and just be a better ally all around. You can't fight anothers battle for them, but you can support them.
Truly we are different, and thus have different individual battles, but as queer masculine beings who were not born male we share a lot of the same grief from the greater world, and so by default the war.
I wanted to throw that out there though I want this thread to remain female ID and Women ID focused... but I believe it's an important consideration.
My half a cup of coffee to yours,
Metro
One thing I'd like to see talked about, and I think it's a huge problem... is the equating of Female ID and Women ID to soft or less masculine.
Frankly, honestly... truly...
... it's just plain sexist (and perhaps misogynistic where it's not being ignorant).
Being, acknowledging, IDing as, having pride in and saying openly one is a female or women as well as butch does not mean one is stating they're less butch. Where people get that I don't know... except that I do.
Butches of all ID's come in all flavors, being Male or Female ID isn't an indicator of cooking skills, mechanic skills... musical preferences... musculature... facial characteristics... cuppa joe or latte... it just isn't meant to convey level of butch-ness.
It's not only dissing Female ID but it places stupid expectations on Male ID to be X Y Z... it really works against everyone.
adorable
03-08-2010, 12:18 PM
I like you metro - I am coming to your thread. lol
I have tried to actually play peace maker between the female and male ID's in the past - which was promptly ignored....lol
Because I think it would be fabulous if we really could all get along - I will just throw this out there.
I was trying to explain to a male ID recently, who feels like he is a man inside TG - why female ID'd butches get so upset. What I told him I THINK it is - stems from female ID'd butches fighting their whole lives against a male centric society to be seen and accepted as masculine women. Only to have other people, who may look like them - dismiss that because that is not how they see themselves.
Ya'll have been having these arguments for a while and never seem to come to a resolution. As someone who comes from an outside place with no real leaning to one particular side what I see happen is almost always the same thing....
Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is insanity.
Here is my take:
The female ID's feel like they're not being heard and get defensive when male pronouns are the default. They see that as evidence of misogyny. They have fought their whole lives to be seen and taken seriously as masculine WOMEN. Then they question why male IDs need to switch from female pronouns at all. The mistake I think female IDs make is believing that male IDs use male pronouns to seem more butch then female IDs.
The male IDs feel like they're not being heard and get defensive when male pronouns as the default are questioned. They see that as evidence of people trying to take away their ID (especially on line.) They have fought their whole lives to be seen and taken seriously as MEN. Then they question why male IDs are trying to be excluded from the site. The mistake male IDs make is believing that female IDs are actually trying to exclude them.
What is so very sad to me is that as Butches regardless of pronoun have very similar real life experiences. The world sees you the same. The struggle is similar but because you come from such very different places the goal is different. How you FEEL inside is different. And because the reasons for what you do, how you dress and who you are are NOT the same - lines are drawn in the sand. Even though the argument always becomes about the power play of the internal female vs male centric society - I don't believe at all that is what is truly being played out in threads.
Yes, people do default to male pronouns. Misogyny is the "hatred" of women. I doubt very highly that anyone coming to a butch femme site holds a hatred of women. Varying levels of education, feminist history and communication savvy perhaps....but not hatred. Yet, it's a loaded word that is thrown around alot. In my opinion, it is abused online and used to settle scores.
Coming from a female centered place, male pronouns set off red flags. Coming from a male centered place, they make them feel included.
It's frustrating to watch the "collective" you attempt to argue endlessly about things when the two sides involved are having completely seperate converstations.
Maybe if everyone would stop comparing their insides to other people's outsides we could all accept people for who they say they are, ask for clarification and stop thinking in black & white.
BullDog
03-08-2010, 12:37 PM
As a butch woman who can be rather outspoken at times, hearing that we masculine types are involved in some sort of turf war or jockeying for position really does irritate me. It makes me feel that when I speak up I am really not being listened to or taken seriously. I feel it's being viewed as a petty squabble. Calm down kids and play nicely.
Speaking from my own point of view, individual's personal pronoun preferences, gender identities, or decisions to transition does not impact me personally one whit. I fully support everyone to make the best choices for themselves.
I also don't think there is limited turf- like we are on an island where only 99 masculine type people can fit and I need to shove a transman off into the ocean or throw a male id'd butch under a bus in order to grab my space on the isle of BeeEffdom or QueerDom. I don't belong to a certain gang that wears a specific color bandana duking it out against the other dudes. You know it sounds like West Side Story or something.
Butch women are told to claim space and speak up and then when they attempt to do so are told to stop fighting. :|
Masculinity is not owned by men or male identified people. when male pronouns are uses as the default and seen as a form of respect for butches, and when it doubt use them so as to be sure not to offend anyone who hates being called she or a woman, that's sexist. People are very quick to point out they are not women or not lesbian. What people don't seem to be so quick about is honoring the female and woman part of butch- which is part of what many butches are and live every day. Butch woman are also many times seen as a small sliver of butch, a subset- when I don't believe that is the case at all out in the real world.
People talk a lot about fighting against the binary. OK great but I personally don't see that we have made much "progress." The proliferation of masculine type identities might make everyone feel more at home in their skin and with their individual identities- that's great- but it is not making sexism go away and I don't see it breaking down gender stereotypes at all. Having more choices of bread to buy at the grocery store now doesn't make capitalism a more improved economic system. It just means there are more types of bread to buy.
When I speak out, when I see other butch women speak out, from my perspective we are claiming space (not turf)- space that is rightfully ours. We are using our voices, we are letting everyone know hey we are still here. We're here, we're queer, we're lesbian and queer masculine females and women- we are proud to be Butch and proud to be Female and proud to be Women- and it's really sexist to squelch that part of Butch. We are not going away. We are the heart and soul of butch and live as visibly queer and lesbian masculine females every day of our lives. Damn right we aren't going to go quietly into the night. That has nothing to do with a turf war or shoving anyone under the bus to me.
adorable
03-08-2010, 12:53 PM
As a butch woman who can be rather outspoken at times, hearing that we masculine types are involved in some sort of turf war or jockeying for position really does irritate me. It makes me feel that when I speak up I am really not being listened to or taken seriously. I feel it's being viewed as a petty squabble. Calm down kids and play nicely.
Speaking from my own point of view, individual's personal pronoun preferences, gender identities, or decisions to transition does not impact me personally one whit. I fully support everyone to make the best choices for themselves.
I also don't think there is limited turf- like we are on an island where only 99 masculine type people can fit and I need to shove a transman off into the ocean or throw a male id'd butch under a bus in order to grab my space on the isle of BeeEffdom or QueerDom. I don't belong to a certain gang that wears a specific color bandana duking it out against the other dudes. You know it sounds like West Side Story or something.
Butch women are told to claim space and speak up and then when they attempt to do so are told to stop fighting. :|
Masculinity is not owned by men or male identified people. when male pronouns are uses as the default and seen as a form of respect for butches, and when it doubt use them so as to be sure not to offend anyone who hates being called she or a woman, that's sexist. People are very quick to point out they are not women or not lesbian. What people don't seem to be so quick about is honoring the female and woman part of butch- which is part of what many butches are and live every day. Butch woman are also many times seen as a small sliver of butch, a subset- when I don't believe that is the case at all out in the real world.
People talk a lot about fighting against the binary. OK great but I personally don't see that we have made much "progress." The proliferation of masculine type identities might make everyone feel more at home in their skin and with their individual identities- that's great- but it is not making sexism go away and I don't see it breaking down gender stereotypes at all. Having more choices of bread to buy at the grocery store now doesn't make capitalism a more improved economic system. It just means there are more types of bread to buy.
When I speak out, when I see other butch women speak out, from my perspective we are claiming space (not turf)- space that is rightfully ours. We are using our voices, we are letting everyone know hey we are still here. We're here, we're queer, we're lesbian and queer masculine females and women- we are proud to be Butch and proud to be Female and proud to be Women- and it's really sexist to squelch that part of Butch. We are not going away. We are the heart and soul of butch and live as visibly queer and lesbian masculine females every day of our lives. Damn right we aren't going to go quietly into the night. That has nothing to do with a turf war or shoving anyone under the bus to me.
So then what is there to argue about? Yet it happens over and over and over and over......
It apparently is MORE then a petty squabble but based on everything you said here what exactly is the "more important" fight? Is it the part I highlighted? Why does someone need to make sexism go away to feel comfortable in their skin? And why does there need to be a loftier goal of breaking down gender stereotypes when that is how people feel INSIDE?
On one hand you say: it doesn't matter to me one whit
On the other you seem to be saying something else entirely.
The second part I highlighted I hope that means for you personally because I think that everyone needs to live their own truth. Speaking up for YOURSELF makes sense to me. Speaking out against others because they are different seems rather unfair.
BullDog
03-08-2010, 01:09 PM
Adorable, who is speaking out against anyone?
If there are people who want to ignore sexism that is their choice, but I don't see how we can be breaking down any gender stereotypes without getting to the roots of sexism.
I like you metro - I am coming to your thread. lol
I have tried to actually play peace maker between the female and male ID's in the past - which was promptly ignored....lol
Because I think it would be fabulous if we really could all get along - I will just throw this out there.
I was trying to explain to a male ID recently, who feels like he is a man inside TG - why female ID'd butches get so upset. What I told him I THINK it is - stems from female ID'd butches fighting their whole lives against a male centric society to be seen and accepted as masculine women. Only to have other people, who may look like them - dismiss that because that is not how they see themselves.
Ya'll have been having these arguments for a while and never seem to come to a resolution. As someone who comes from an outside place with no real leaning to one particular side what I see happen is almost always the same thing....
Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is insanity.
Here is my take:
The female ID's feel like they're not being heard and get defensive when male pronouns are the default. They see that as evidence of misogyny. They have fought their whole lives to be seen and taken seriously as masculine WOMEN. Then they question why male IDs need to switch from female pronouns at all. The mistake I think female IDs make is believing that male IDs use male pronouns to seem more butch then female IDs.
The male IDs feel like they're not being heard and get defensive when male pronouns as the default are questioned. They see that as evidence of people trying to take away their ID (especially on line.) They have fought their whole lives to be seen and taken seriously as MEN. Then they question why male IDs are trying to be excluded from the site. The mistake male IDs make is believing that female IDs are actually trying to exclude them.
What is so very sad to me is that as Butches regardless of pronoun have very similar real life experiences. The world sees you the same. The struggle is similar but because you come from such very different places the goal is different. How you FEEL inside is different. And because the reasons for what you do, how you dress and who you are are NOT the same - lines are drawn in the sand. Even though the argument always becomes about the power play of the internal female vs male centric society - I don't believe at all that is what is truly being played out in threads.
Yes, people do default to male pronouns. Misogyny is the "hatred" of women. I doubt very highly that anyone coming to a butch femme site holds a hatred of women. Varying levels of education, feminist history and communication savvy perhaps....but not hatred. Yet, it's a loaded word that is thrown around alot. In my opinion, it is abused online and used to settle scores.
Coming from a female centered place, male pronouns set off red flags. Coming from a male centered place, they make them feel included.
It's frustrating to watch the "collective" you attempt to argue endlessly about things when the two sides involved are having completely seperate converstations.
Maybe if everyone would stop comparing their insides to other people's outsides we could all accept people for who they say they are, ask for clarification and stop thinking in black & white.
This all is a consideration, and said something kind of similar in my post (two above yours). But...
... it doesn't change the fact that Female ID and Women ID Butches do have to deal with ID specific issues and need a space to do so. We face sexism and yes misogynistic remarks in these types forums... more so than (speaking for myself) in other areas in relation to the ID itself. Just as others do face isms and phobias due to their own unique ID and situations.
Defaults in pronouns are really just the tip of the iceburg, we face having our "butchness" or masculinity questioned due to the words female and women... we face remarks about lesbian (those of us who ID as one) meaning we like particular a sexual position, 69 to be exact... we face our personal issues being consided less in need of discussion or as an affront (did you go in the other masculine ID specific threads and post?)... etc. etc. We face sexism in our own community from all directions AND misogyny yes, because we've existed in a patriarchal world. Were not immune to it just because we're female, or masculine females or males, many women face internal misogyny and it can come out sideways or direct.
That said... most importantly... this thread isn't about "us and them", my first post pointed out that it comes from all directions... nor is this thread a continuation of the in-fighting (and I hope it doesn't degrade or get baited into that resulting in complete disintegration of space again)... it's not about "them", it's about us and how we deal and can try to cope with what we face specific to our ID.
I appreciate your post, and all due respect (I like you too) but it's a hell of a lot deeper than pronouns... or any one other specific ID, at least from my vantage point.
P.S. Just FYI, the problem is not only that the default is male... but that there is a default at all, perhaps these discussion can bring the crux of the issues like that some greater light (and I believe the defaults would fall more under sexism than misogyny, just to be clear).
P.S.S. I know how the defaults came about so no need to explain.
So then what is there to argue about? Yet it happens over and over and over and over......
It apparently is MORE then a petty squabble but based on everything you said here what exactly is the "more important" fight? Is it the part I highlighted? Why does someone need to make sexism go away to feel comfortable in their skin? And why does there need to be a loftier goal of breaking down gender stereotypes when that is how people feel INSIDE?
On one hand you say: it doesn't matter to me one whit
On the other you seem to be saying something else entirely.
The second part I highlighted I hope that means for you personally because I think that everyone needs to live their own truth. Speaking up for YOURSELF makes sense to me. Speaking out against others because they are different seems rather unfair.
Why are you inferring this is an argument against others rather than one for ourselves?
Do you see other discussions between specific masculine ID groups as an affront to everyone else, rather than discussion of ID related issues good and bad? Have you enter those conversations with your points?
This is not an argument... unless you make it one. This thread is not about male ID... unless you make it one.
I for one am hoping it can be about Female ID and Women ID.
Apocalipstic
03-08-2010, 01:47 PM
:)
I just wanted to say that I support you, your thread and Bull Dykes everywhere!
AtLast
03-08-2010, 02:13 PM
[QUOTE=Metropolis;62901]
the problem is not only that the default is male... but that there is a default at all, perhaps these discussion can bring the crux of the issues like that some greater light (and I believe the defaults would fall more under sexism than misogyny, just to be clear).
QUOTE]
So much to be discussed here and these points (in red) I feel are very important.
Thank you for this space, Metro. I sure hope it remains a place for us to study and disect the issues your OP stated and not get side tracked with TG, etc. arguments. That is just not what this is all about! We need to own our own shit as well as tell our stories, give support, and hopefully leave an intelligent, coherent legacy.
Just hope our space to do this in is respected. We have a lot of work to do- without comparisons!
I think a problem lay in interpretation.
Say: I have an issue with defaulting to male pronouns as a Female Women ID... it should be considered that, I'm having a problem because it affects me personally in my ID... I'm being referred to as a sex I don't identify with. Male ID aren't bitching about it ONLY because it's defaulting to male pronoun. My calling it, is NOT saying it's their fault (nor saying they're the ones doing it). BUT it is hard to express my dilemma w/o acknowledging the "gender" of the default... and the misinterpretation lay in peeps hearing that an argument or Female versus Male.
It's not, and... it's not. I support and respect all my male ID friends (and acquaintances) in their pronoun choices.... always...
... what I am saying though is... respect me in mine.
This is one small issue, defaults, and I'm just using it as an example of why I believe speaking up for oneself continually gets taken as an affront to others. And probably a fair example of why Female ID's face unique challenges in these forums as another very masculine ID among many... just as butch as________... but in being acknowledged for being female as well... neither should take away from the other.
Bottom line... this thread is about Female ID and Women ID related issues... and to be taken as an affront to any other ID is to totally misinterpreting the intention.
AtLast
03-08-2010, 02:31 PM
People talk a lot about fighting against the binary. OK great but I personally don't see that we have made much "progress." The proliferation of masculine type identities might make everyone feel more at home in their skin and with their individual identities- that's great- but it is not making sexism go away and I don't see it breaking down gender stereotypes at all. Having more choices of bread to buy at the grocery store now doesn't make capitalism a more improved economic system. It just means there are more types of bread to buy.
No, sexism is alive and well!
What I am amazed with is that feminism is what brought gender studies into being! I am so sick of the lack of historical knowledge and understanding of what a social movement is! feminism in its attempt to erradicate sexism, bring to light the negatives in sex-role stereotypes and fight the patriarchy, laid the foundation for transformation of the gender binary!
Ignorance continues as bliss! And thgere is no excuse for remaining ignorant here, as research into this is a click away! No one needs a degree to gain insight into the role of feminism in the development of gender enlightenment1
BullDog
03-08-2010, 02:54 PM
No, sexism is alive and well!
What I am amazed with is that feminism is what brought gender studies into being! I am so sick of the lack of historical knowledge and understanding of what a social movement is! feminism in its attempt to erradicate sexism, bring to light the negatives in sex-role stereotypes and fight the patriarchy, laid the foundation for transformation of the gender binary!
Ignorance continues as bliss! And thgere is no excuse for remaining ignorant here, as research into this is a click away! No one needs a degree to gain insight into the role of feminism in the development of gender enlightenment1
Yes, absolutely, AtLast. Many cultures acknowledge more than two genders, so I certainly believe in gender diversity or having more than two genders recognized.
I do agree with you that feminism has paved the way for many things, including gender studies and being able to critically examine the gender binary.
Sexism is rooted in limiting what woman can be. Sexism is about assigning gender stereotypes to women based on one's sex (female). Men then also are assigned stereotypes as well. It has consequences far beyond how we internally feel about ourselves or how we are acknowledged in terms of our gender, as we all know.
Certainly not everyone who is biologically female has to embrace woman as their gender or one of their genders, but unless we get to the roots of sexism and speak out against the gender stereotypes assigned to women, I don't see how any genders can be free. I also don't see having 5, 12, 86 or infinite genders as in itself fighing the binary or gender stereotypes in any meaningful way other than we all get to have our own personal id.
Appreciating gender diversity is certainly something I think we all want to do and strive to do better, but it's not freeing us from gender stereotypes or sexism or other societal inequalities, it just gives us more individual choice. I also don't think our individual choices will be honored unless we speak out and fight against what's really holding us back. If our society and queer communities remain as sexist, homophobic, transphobic, etc. as they are now, our individual ids will not be honored in any meaningful way.
adorable
03-08-2010, 03:15 PM
Metro - I get the meaning of your OP. I had just been thinking about what I put out there. I didn't mean to derail the thread. lol. Or omg! start an argument. I wouldn't. I would ask for clarification though...because it does often seem like there is some miscommunication going on. I've always wondered why were just aren't all on the same side.
But if this thread is just for female ID butches that won't happen. <--and that is NOT intended to be sarcastic - that is geniune. I understand the space.
Atlast - history is understood but forgotten over time. That is why almost everything that happens repeats itself.
Bulldog - I wasn't trying to start nuttin' pinky swear. lol. Just thinking about what I thought is all. Then thinking about what you thought.
To our allies, to me what is important, and what I believe is important to many butch women and female identified butches as well, is that we be recognized not just as masculine beings but as women and females as well.
Yes, Bully. I am not worried about anyone in real time or online "seeing" my masculinity; in fact, that's laughable to me. Yet, I think for others that may be a real issue that feeds some personal need to erase "woman" from "butch"-- even if that's regarding others. For me, and for many I know who ID as butch women, the "woman" part is what's lost, obscured, unacknowledged, or disrespected in real time and online. I don't fit anybody's notion of woman based on social constructs and definitions -- which absolutely always do come into play.
Being, acknowledging, IDing as, having pride in and saying openly one is a female or women as well as butch does not mean one is stating they're less butch. Where people get that I don't know... except that I do.
Butches of all ID's come in all flavors, being Male or Female ID isn't an indicator of cooking skills, mechanic skills... musical preferences... musculature... facial characteristics... cuppa joe or latte... it just isn't meant to convey level of butch-ness.
It's not only dissing Female ID but it places stupid expectations on Male ID to be X Y Z... it really works against everyone.
To see female ID'd or butch women characterized as less masculine or not as butch really is ironic, irritating, and irksome considering my daily experience of walking through the world and being perceived as too masculine/butch. It would be funny if I didn't have to deal with the crap the world sends my way and then be confronted in queer spaces with the ridiculous attitudes and posturing surrounding the very idea of what butch is. While I have always looked to queer spaces for a place to find kinship and understanding, it's not all that fun to see myself defined by others in ways that aren't indicative of my reality.
Maybe if everyone would stop comparing their insides to other people's outsides we could all accept people for who they say they are, ask for clarification and stop thinking in black & white.
Yes, this would be lovely. Hope to see it happen someday.
Bottom line... this thread is about Female ID and Women ID related issues... and to be taken as an affront to any other ID is to totally misinterpreting the intention.
Met, misinterpretations are beyond our control, but intention does count, and yours is clear. Thank you for taking the space. :)
Metro - I get the meaning of your OP. I had just been thinking about what I put out there. I didn't mean to derail the thread. lol. Or omg! start an argument. I wouldn't. I would ask for clarification though...because it does often seem like there is some miscommunication going on. I've always wondered why were just aren't all on the same side.
But if this thread is just for female ID butches that won't happen. <--and that is NOT intended to be sarcastic - that is geniune. I understand the space.
Atlast - history is understood but forgotten over time. That is why almost everything that happens repeats itself.
Bulldog - I wasn't trying to start nuttin' pinky swear. lol. Just thinking about what I thought is all. Then thinking about what you thought.
This space isn't "Female ID and Male ID- the Wars"... it's "The Strong Female/Women ID Butch in a Patriarchal World" the title should explain it's purpose in and of itself. This thread is very simply intended to have provide equal space for Female ID's and Women ID's to discuss unique issues related to that ID in the real world and online spaces... and everywhere.
That's it... female versus male isn't the subject of the thread.
I have more thoughts/responses (on subject) but don't have time...
Thanx everyone
Edited add- We are on the same side (well most of us I'd like to believe), and also I've received reps from male ID for this thread... and really appreciate that it's being respected.
AtLast
03-08-2010, 05:57 PM
This space isn't "Female ID and Male ID- the Wars"... it's "The Strong Female/Women ID Butch in a Patriarchal World" the title should explain it's purpose in and of itself. This thread is very simply intended to have provide equal space for Female ID's and Women ID's to discuss unique issues related to that ID in the real world and online spaces... and everywhere.
That's it... female versus male isn't the subject of the thread.
I have more thoughts/responses (on subject) but don't have time...
Thanx everyone
Edited add- We are on the same side (well most of us I'd like to believe), and also I've received reps from male ID for this thread... and really appreciate that it's being respected.
Have to add that I too, am getting positive reps about my posts from male-ided/trans/intergendered folks. They understand, respect, and support the thread and also know we are all on the same side and are not in the least bit put off (or defensive) with our taking a look at what is unique to the female-identified butch. They get it! and know that I return mutual respect and understanding And I appreciate this very much. I honestly see BFPlanet as a site that can finally be a place where we can have harmony. I feel very fortunate to have these kinds of butch friends.
I've been thinking about this thread, and about how I knew starting it would taken wrong by some. How peeps may take it as an affront to X, or think damn feminists I'm tired of it can't we just have fun? Well exactly... can't we?
Hey, I'm a really easy going person. I'm pretty damn mellow actually, pretty low key. In real life I've never really rapped about these things. I'm a simple peep with simple likes, and I'm a deep thinker with a big heart, I like to ride and rebuild motorcycles, play guitar, shoot basketball, play pool, have a bud with a bud, find a good suit second hand, spend time with my lady...simple things make me happy. I don't rant about sexism over dinner, I don't talk about misogyny at a party... I'm not to sure I've really ever talked at length about that stuff with anyone real life.
And frankly I've never called myself a feminist, don't really know enough about it's history- speak- in and outs, never been in women's only space... but... if feeling the injustice of the world toward women deep enough to speak out makes me one, then I guess I'm the accidental feminist. Maybe I just don't deal with feeling disrespected well (or seeing people I love dissed).. face to face I'm probably likely to let the first covert or accidental one fly (maybe two), after that I'll say hey that's not cool please don't say do whatever (benefit of the doubt)... but after I say it and someone keeps doing it your likely to be escorted out of my house.
I have big luvs for my B-F community... from A to Z. I know a lot of peeps here real life, a lot I don't, but definitely consider friends (a few just like r/l not so much, it happens). So it doesn't feel good to have to call out shit here any more than it does to hear it. I don't enjoy conflict, or the friction between some ID's, frankly though I see it- I'm just not feeling it in me and really don't want any part of it. I don't have some "group dislike". I'm not sure I'm even capable of that with any group in life (aside from say groups of the Fred Phelps variety) let alone toward masculine ID's like myself.
Identities are identities, they aren't people or personalities. The disrespects I've spoken of in relation to Female ID absolutely are NOT coming from one source, NOT one single ID and to be honest I've heard just as many sexist or sometimes just ignorant remarks from some random femmes mouth as I ever have from other masculine ID's like myself (and a few Female ID). So I never get why calling out the shit (sexism/misogyny) gets taken by some as putting the blame on the shoulders of Male ID's... it's not their doing and not just limited to any one group.
And back to me, despite being sick of the sexists remarks and the fact I don't know how exactly to change it sans call it out, and being really fecking tired of talking about it (I just want to live life), and definitely not one hair of desire to create a thread that I knew was going to be taken wrong and have good intentions be cast in a bad light by some, thus risk ending up in a never ending battle deflecting accusation which I'd rather drink a cold cup of dog shit than end up in...
... I did it anyway, because A. I'm Female simple as that (and to me being an adult female by default I'm a woman... not an ID and it's not political) and B. I have friends who I hear say they feel the sting too and don't feel like there being very well heard or seen... and that bothers me.
That is why this thread is here. This is how I feel, if the intent of this thread doesn't get heard I think it's only to those who don't want to open their ears or minds.
Ok, I'm again pretty talked out but all that said I hope this thread can now carry on in the spirit it was intended.
Metro
adorable, as far as your reference to this thread not going anywhere (as in resolving male female ID conflicts) unless we allow all ID's in here... although that's not what this thread is going to be about, I'd like to point out I already stated this thread IS open to all supporters and allies of the Female ID... and just so you know it, because I do, that includes many many Male ID, FTM, Trans because I've found many of them great friends and an allies in my real life and online already.
I think there are a lot of reasons why owning female and/or woman is difficult for some butches who ID that way, especially online.
1. They're online to troll for dates, so they fear being perceived as "less butch" and/or "too girlie". Considering the volumes of anti-female remarks I've seen online by femmes over the years, that is hardly surprising. (And no, I'm not bashing femmes, just stating what is obvious online regarding what are considered acceptable/desired butch qualities.)
2. They've spent little to no real time around other butches (this was true for me in real life because of where I live), and they're uncertain or insecure as to how they'll be perceived (again in a quantitative way). I was no little kid when I started coming online, and the pressure I perceived was enormous. (I didn't succumb or allow it to change me, but I didn't like it either.)
3. There's a push online to value the masculine because its the aspect of being butch that's common among most, if not all, butches (male and female ID'd), but it's taken to an extreme as if it was some kind of marker or goal rather than something that is innate and unique to each individual. Yes, I think it's often ridiculously affected, overblown, and exaggerated as a way to display "butch", which is sexist and demeaning overall. (Think of a group of teenage boys all comparing penis size.)
4. Lastly, it's sometimes a case of internalized homophobia. We all want to be considered "normal" or "okay" or "human" regardless of our sexual orientation or gender, and that's understandable. However, when that translates to the "we're just like a straight couple" mindset, I'm at a loss. Being queer, for me, has meant being "normal", "okay", or "human" just as I am -- a bulldagger who fucks other women and presents as masculine. That's a tough sell in the larger society, but it should not be that way among other queers. So, what I see online (and sometimes in real time, but rarely) is an effort to portray our relationships in some heteronormative way to feel "normal", "okay", or "human". I find that incredibly sad. (Again, I'm talking about those who don't ID as male in real life.)
So, no, I don't think I've said anything new or insightful here, but I've tried to put together the main causes for what I perceive is the devaluation of the butch woman in online forums. And frankly, I'm really sick of it. I'm fucking tired of seeing the pressure to conform and the absence of authenticity surrounding this issue. But, that's probably just me. ;)
Beau
Martina
03-09-2010, 02:33 PM
I doubt very highly that anyone coming to a butch femme site holds a hatred of women. Varying levels of education, feminist history and communication savvy perhaps....but not hatred.
i wish that were true. It is not, unfortunately.
Martina
03-09-2010, 02:39 PM
One thing i like about the real world -- the world where people are not so gender savvy -- is that there are a lot of butches blissfully ignorant of this whole argument. Butches who ID as butch and who are not fussed by all this. i love that. i like to recall that that is MOST butches in the U.S. i think there are a minority of them who would benefit from this extra knowledge, those who would find more of a home here than they do in their own various worlds. i hope that those people find an online or r/t community like ours that accepts them. But i am somewhat grateful that the vast majority of butches go through their lives blissfully ignorant of these problems, not made to question their "butchness," not pitted against other butches, not criticized by ill-informed and immature femmes. i am happy that they don't know we exist.
As a butch living in the real world, I believe very few, if any, butches exist who aren't painfully aware of the issues surrounding being butch - regardless of ID. I think all of us, as butches who live in a heterosexual/patriarchal society, have endured much questioning of our "butchness" from both the straight world and within gay/lesbian circles. I think we've been pitted against each other in many ways real time, and we've been criticized from all sides.
This is nothing new. It's just worse that it's occurring in a space we share in an attempt to find community with one another.
Martina
03-09-2010, 04:06 PM
As a butch living in the real world, I believe very few, if any, butches exist who aren't painfully aware of the issues surrounding being butch - regardless of ID. I think all of us, as butches who live in a heterosexual/patriarchal society, have endured much questioning of our "butchness" from both the straight world and within gay/lesbian circles. I think we've been pitted against each other in many ways real time, and we've been criticized from all sides.
This is nothing new. It's just worse that it's occurring in a space we share in an attempt to find community with one another.
i think all butches are aware of sexism and homophobia as it affects them on a daily basis. Are they aware of the many gender identities that exist and the biases common online and in some urban communities? No. Most are not. Whatever else may be going on in their lives, for better or worse, most are not.
One thing i like about the real world -- the world where people are not so gender savvy -- is that there are a lot of butches blissfully ignorant of this whole argument. Butches who ID as butch and who are not fussed by all this. i love that. i like to recall that that is MOST butches in the U.S. i think there are a minority of them who would benefit from this extra knowledge, those who would find more of a home here than they do in their own various worlds. i hope that those people find an online or r/t community like ours that accepts them. But i am somewhat grateful that the vast majority of butches go through their lives blissfully ignorant of these problems, not made to question their "butchness," not pitted against other butches, not criticized by ill-informed and immature femmes. i am happy that they don't know we exist.
I really hear what you've said Martina, it's something that's bothered me for a lonnnng ass time, and the way you put it kind of pinpointed something about it for me (and it speaks to some of what Beau has said as well).
I value this community and my friends here very much... but I wish I never knew of some of the ID'd politics that exist here, "ignorance is bliss" is truth in this arena.
Before I came to online B-F forums five+ years ago... I was just "butch" (Stone but it's beside the point), it was good enough, no need to say anymore. My butchness was sure as hell never questioned just because I was a female. Sometimes now I feel like I've allowed myself to get caught up in a trap (feeling caged) of having to "ID" and thus ending up in the position then of defending "it"... rather than just being... I don't like it. I'm a butch and female it's just what it is and always has been.
It's like... so- the- fuck- what?
The "Female ID'd" always felt more a response to the politics here more than expressing anything specific or different about myself as a butch. It's always felt redundant (for me like wet identified water) and it feels counter productive because (to me) it's reinforcing the politics. I don't think my butchness has to be qualified or categorized, I don't like doing it, I don't live life like a "Female ID'd Butch"... but rather a "Butch" identified female. If that makes sense to anyone but me.
"Just butch" and it felt good yep (you reminded me of that thank you)... I don't like the ID/labels politics game. I don't have to play. I'm not stepping down from the "politics" of being a "Strong Female and/or Women Butch in a Patriarchal World", just stepping away from the "ID'd" part... and the feeling pressured to stick a gender type identifier on my head and be commended or ridiculed over it (me). And I'm stepping up (back) to where I think I need to be to be happy as a butch and a female.
From here on out I identify as not identifying, just a Butch and female.
Am I being a bad ally to my fellow women? I don't think so... I'm not in any way renouncing being a female... just dropping a gender/sex based ID system I think is flawed and I believe counter productive for myself and many butches.
It works for some just not for me... anymore.
Metropolis
*I'll probably end up with an empty dance card but what the hay*
Before I came to online B-F forums five+ years ago... I was just "butch" (Stone but it's beside the point), it was good enough, no need to say anymore. My butchness was sure as hell never questioned just because I was a female. Sometimes now I feel like I've allowed myself to get caught up in a trap (feeling caged) of having to "ID" and thus ending up in the position then of defending "it"... rather than just being... I don't like it. I'm a butch and female it's just what it is and always has been.
It's like... so- the- fuck- what?
The "Female ID'd" always felt more a response to the politics here more than expressing anything specific or different about myself as a butch. It's always felt redundant (for me like wet identified water) and it feels counter productive because (to me) it's reinforcing the politics. I don't think my butchness has to be qualified or categorized, I don't like doing it, I don't live life like a "Female ID'd Butch"... but rather a "Butch" identified female. If that makes sense to anyone but me.
Of course it makes sense -- "butch" identified female -- so, no worries there. That said, it would be lovely if we could all be "just butch", but that's sort of the point isn't it? In this arena, there are categories and categories within categories, and so on. And this arena is where we're all posting.
"Just butch" and it felt good yep (you reminded me of that thank you)... I don't like the ID/labels politics game. I don't have to play. I'm not stepping down from the "politics" of being a "Strong Female and/or Women Butch in a Patriarchal World", just stepping away from the "ID'd" part... and the feeling pressured to stick a gender type identifier on my head and be commended or ridiculed over it (me). And I'm stepping up (back) to where I think I need to be to be happy as a butch and a female.
From here on out I identify as not identifying, just a Butch and female.
Am I being a bad ally to my fellow women? I don't think so... I'm not in any way renouncing being a female... just dropping a gender/sex based ID system I think is flawed and I believe counter productive for myself and many butches.
It works for some just not for me... anymore.
Metropolis
You're an ally to all who know you, Met. However, though the system is flawed, it seems to matter in a world that now encompasses the categories aforementioned. And yes, hell yes, it is counterproductive for many of us, myself included. But, I have concerns, Met. I worry that if there is an abdication of claiming female/woman proudly, it sends the wrong message to those who've yet to discover or evolve into an identity that is best for them. If they don't see some of us (not saying you have to) stand up and proclaim, I'm a woman, and it's okay to be a big, badass butch and be a woman - even if that doesn't match what society (any society) defines as woman - then they may not view it as being perceived as accepted or admired. It seems to play into the notion of male = superior and female = doesn't matter.
:: shrug :: I'm not sure what the answer is then for those of us who'd love to be viewed as "just butch" among our own.
*I'll probably end up with an empty dance card but what the hay*
Now, you know that'll never be true, you heartthrob. :eyebat:
AtLast
03-09-2010, 06:51 PM
I think there are a lot of reasons why owning female and/or woman is difficult for some butches who ID that way, especially online.
1. They're online to troll for dates, so they fear being perceived as "less butch" and/or "too girlie". Considering the volumes of anti-female remarks I've seen online by femmes over the years, that is hardly surprising. (And no, I'm not bashing femmes, just stating what is obvious online regarding what are considered acceptable/desired butch qualities.)
2. They've spent little to no real time around other butches (this was true for me in real life because of where I live), and they're uncertain or insecure as to how they'll be perceived (again in a quantitative way). I was no little kid when I started coming online, and the pressure I perceived was enormous. (I didn't succumb or allow it to change me, but I didn't like it either.)
3. There's a push online to value the masculine because its the aspect of being butch that's common among most, if not all, butches (male and female ID'd), but it's taken to an extreme as if it was some kind of marker or goal rather than something that is innate and unique to each individual. Yes, I think it's often ridiculously affected, overblown, and exaggerated as a way to display "butch", which is sexist and demeaning overall. (Think of a group of teenage boys all comparing penis size.)
4. Lastly, it's sometimes a case of internalized homophobia. We all want to be considered "normal" or "okay" or "human" regardless of our sexual orientation or gender, and that's understandable. However, when that translates to the "we're just like a straight couple" mindset, I'm at a loss. Being queer, for me, has meant being "normal", "okay", or "human" just as I am -- a bulldagger who fucks other women and presents as masculine. That's a tough sell in the larger society, but it should not be that way among other queers. So, what I see online (and sometimes in real time, but rarely) is an effort to portray our relationships in some heteronormative way to feel "normal", "okay", or "human". I find that incredibly sad. (Again, I'm talking about those who don't ID as male in real life.)
So, no, I don't think I've said anything new or insightful here, but I've tried to put together the main causes for what I perceive is the devaluation of the butch woman in online forums. And frankly, I'm really sick of it. I'm fucking tired of seeing the pressure to conform and the absence of authenticity surrounding this issue. But, that's probably just me. ;)
Beau
WOW, Beau, you have put forth a pretty comprehensive review, here! I hope we have discussions and additions to all of your points. And, as someone that really in the scheme of things, came to the B-F dynamic as well as butch identification rather late in life, I am having one of those I am not alone moments!
I have especially had some deeply troubling feelings about this devaluation from some (absolutely, not all) femmes. A point that I want to bring up, however, is that many times in this online context, I have been able to look at some of these comments in the context of perhaps a femme being defensive because of being partnered with (and loving) a transperson. I have seen many instances of femmes being attacked for this and their femmeness (even queerness) questioned within this community.
With that being said, there have been quite a few times (actually speaking about real time, right now), in a dating context, I have felt pressure to become more masculine from a femme, even to the point of having things said to me like you have slender hips and that would be good for transitioning. Or, just being a butch that doesn't pack (I will if it is requested from a femme I am seeing when its just one of those sexy thangs she likes - which is just between the two of us).Obviously, continuing to date these femmes was not an option for me. Even when I really cared for one of them. I'm who I am in general as myself and as a butch. My feelings here were that this is just not a good fit! If this is what a femme wants, then I certainly think she should have it, but it won't come from me. LOL.... I still can't fathom why these women even accepted a date with me! Made no sense. And, sure, I had a couple of pissed off moments about this.
Of course it makes sense -- "butch" identified female -- so, no worries there. That said, it would be lovely if we could all be "just butch", but that's sort of the point isn't it? In this arena, there are categories and categories within categories, and so on. And this arena is where we're all posting.
You're an ally to all who know you, Met. However, though the system is flawed, it seems to matter in a world that now encompasses the categories aforementioned. And yes, hell yes, it is counterproductive for many of us, myself included. But, I have concerns, Met. I worry that if there is an abdication of claiming female/woman proudly, it sends the wrong message to those who've yet to discover or evolve into an identity that is best for them. If they don't see some of us (not saying you have to) stand up and proclaim, I'm a woman, and it's okay to be a big, badass butch and be a woman - even if that doesn't match what society (any society) defines as woman - then they may not view it as being perceived as accepted or admired. It seems to play into the notion of male = superior and female = doesn't matter.
:: shrug :: I'm not sure what the answer is then for those of us who'd love to be viewed as "just butch" among our own.
Now, you know that'll never be true, you heartthrob. :eyebat:
Here's the short answer: "Just Butch" to me is and always was butch and female and/or woman... it's what I lived as my life as and it never stopped me from speaking, being, taking pride in myself as a female, a woman, a butch.
And it won't now. Same Stone Butch BullDyke here, just on my own terms and terminology and not an added ID created for online politics... and I have absolutely no intention of losing any visibility in being seen as a proud butch female... just in living the same life I have in the real world here. And just to be sure it's clear, I'm speaking about dropping the word "ID'ing"- as in the term Female and/or Women ID'd... not about not claiming or speaking as a, or with butch female and/or women when and where I please.
I just feel like I'm playing into the very (online) politics that I don't support.
Here's the long answer: (just to make things overly complicated ;))
If a online ID system is flawed and were using it, we're upholding it. I know the reason we're using it, to be seen, visible, but I feel like I can easily achieve that without it (we already have/do in R/L). I believe it works well for Male ID butches, and it's necessary for them. But I think it works against butches who identify with being female just in the fact alone it inadvertently draws away from the fact that most butches, real world and here are and are already recognized as female without having to qualify the word butch with an added ID to express it.
And honestly an ID system used to categorize butches, that seems to inadvertently backfire when used on the female end isn't all that productive... especially if you can express being butch and female w/o turning the female part into looking as a qualifier or maybe better said modifier of the word butch by making it an "ID"... it's just plain getting misread a lot as that.
There's a hundred ways to say I'm a proud, I'm butch, I'm female without needing to use a qualifier ID... I like this one:
"stand up and proclaim, I'm a woman, and it's okay to be a big, badass butch and be a woman - even if that doesn't match what society (any society) defines as woman" (my friend Lonnie said that)
Last... it just plain feels backwards (to me) to have to ID myself as a female because I'm a butch... and again it just feels like playing into the same online politics I don't support.
I hope you get what I'm saying... I know many won't agree but it feels like the right thing.
Oh and I'll leave my dance card right here, in case you, well you know... ;)
Metropolis
imperfect_cupcake
03-10-2010, 02:20 AM
Met, that is where I reside at the moment. It is one thing I am extremely greatful for, the London genderqueer scene, is that although there are *some* internal ID politic arguments, most of those are from inter-personal cat fighting between long personal histories. There *is* "just butch". And yep, stone is kinda an aside thing. There but it's considered kind of describing a more... erm... personal *cough* aspect of one's sexuality that isn't really what people are interested in hearing over a pint.
Inks has met a few north american butches recently. And although she likes them, a lot, she does find the "preoccupation with constant self definition assertions" rather baffling and a tad "boring."
She finds the online stuff "horrific" and it's something she really doesn't get. I have explained where it comes from. But europeans have a totally different concept of space and community is different because of that tiny little personal space bubble and extremely long history of even a neighbourhood.
TBH, I'm not real confident in introducing her to any butch-femme scenes. I don't think she'd get it. We're used to hanging out with a big mix of people who don't give a single shit about our ID's. And we don't have to explain ourselves because no one cares - our personal relationship is kinda just that: our personal relationship dynamics and none of anyone else's biz. And everyone respects that. I don't tell my friend "I'm having butch problems..." if I have a fight. I tell her Inks and I are having a rough time and I'm stressed out.
the constant referal to qualifying someone else's gender doesn't happen. it seems to give us both a hell of a lot more room. the only time the word "butch" comes up is if it's *relevant* to the context of the conversation. and personally I prefer it that way. I find it suffocating and irritating if people keep refering to me as "femme" rather than "barb". I'm not a group of highly different people ffs. it's like someone saying "oh how woman of you." fuck off!
sorry, turned into a bit of rant there about my own shit... but I really don't wish to even attempt to get Inks involved in the on-line community. She prefers people who "get" her in person and luckily we have that luxoury in london, especially with the choice of genderqueer clubs.
That will disapear when we move back but somehow I doubt our personal relationship dynamics and our ID's won't be a problem to anyone we're friends with unless we make it that way.
AtLast
03-10-2010, 04:42 AM
Met, that is where I reside at the moment. It is one thing I am extremely greatful for, the London genderqueer scene, is that although there are *some* internal ID politic arguments, most of those are from inter-personal cat fighting between long personal histories. There *is* "just butch". And yep, stone is kinda an aside thing. There but it's considered kind of describing a more... erm... personal *cough* aspect of one's sexuality that isn't really what people are interested in hearing over a pint.
Inks has met a few north american butches recently. And although she likes them, a lot, she does find the "preoccupation with constant self definition assertions" rather baffling and a tad "boring."
She finds the online stuff "horrific" and it's something she really doesn't get. I have explained where it comes from. But europeans have a totally different concept of space and community is different because of that tiny little personal space bubble and extremely long history of even a neighbourhood.
TBH, I'm not real confident in introducing her to any butch-femme scenes. I don't think she'd get it. We're used to hanging out with a big mix of people who don't give a single shit about our ID's. And we don't have to explain ourselves because no one cares - our personal relationship is kinda just that: our personal relationship dynamics and none of anyone else's biz. And everyone respects that. I don't tell my friend "I'm having butch problems..." if I have a fight. I tell her Inks and I are having a rough time and I'm stressed out.
the constant referal to qualifying someone else's gender doesn't happen. it seems to give us both a hell of a lot more room. the only time the word "butch" comes up is if it's *relevant* to the context of the conversation. and personally I prefer it that way. I find it suffocating and irritating if people keep refering to me as "femme" rather than "barb". I'm not a group of highly different people ffs. it's like someone saying "oh how woman of you." fuck off!
sorry, turned into a bit of rant there about my own shit... but I really don't wish to even attempt to get Inks involved in the on-line community. She prefers people who "get" her in person and luckily we have that luxoury in london, especially with the choice of genderqueer clubs.
That will disapear when we move back but somehow I doubt our personal relationship dynamics and our ID's won't be a problem to anyone we're friends with unless we make it that way.
You are addressing some things that I think about a lot. The preoccupation with identities - it feels so constricting to me so very much of the time. Yes, I'm a butch.... but this is a very small part of who I am. In fact, it isn't all that significant at all. I'm a woman, a lesbian, a feminist, a parent, a retired professional, a neighbor, a disabled person, a sister, an Aunt and a Great Aunt, a writer, a volunteer and on and on. Butch is just part of the mix. It is not the whole of my existance.
I have met and befriended some really fine people via the online community we share, but my life does not revolve around this. Yes, I like to interact with people here. My social connections and activities are not B-F centered. I don't date within this community even though I date femmes (although, they can run the full range of whatever femme can appear to be). To be honest, I don't care if someone I am seeing identifies as femme. Many women do not and certainly get the dynamic. They don't need the labels and identity restrictions that these labels often bring with them. i don't want these either.
I have dated more often than not, women that simply do not want involvement in online sites like this one. Some would not attend B-F specific events. This is fine with me. If i want to attend something related to the B-F community, I can always attend by myself or with friends that want to attend.
I do have a connection with the site and as I said, some people here. I will do some social activities to be able to say hello to some people I just plain like from this community. But, I won't live my life boxed-in with being butch. I do feel deeply about social and political issues concerning the B-F community within civil rights issues and I will always speak-up about these and be active in organizations that help in effecting change that relates to this community.
BullDog
03-10-2010, 10:45 AM
Metro and Beau, what both of you say does make a great deal of sense. I would like to just be Plain Ole Butch, but when butches who do consider themselves to be female and women don't speak up, the stereotypes and assumptions continue.
I also agree with Metro. I don't id as female, I am female. Woman identified butch? What is that. I am female and woman, and yes when we have to use it so we are not mistaken as being male identified it seems to come off as a qualifier for butch which does seem ass backwards to me. Most butches have female bodies, most butches live their lives as females, why are we using female as a qualifier for butch? Why are all the online defaults for butches male when most butches don't identify that way?
I don't think female identified butch is the flip side to male identified butch. I find female identified butch and woman identified butch to be rather meaningless terms, and I agree with Metro that they seem to work against us. I am not sure I see it as identity politics though. Most butches don't consider themselves to be male and don't wished to thought of as such. We have to speak up to make this known.
Female and woman are already part of butch. It's redundant to say female or woman. For those who that doesn't apply to, I think it's up to them to specify what their meaning of butch is if that's important to them. "Female identified butch" came about as a reaction to male identified butch, not as something meaningful in and of itself.
Online there's a lot of double speak. People will say that yes they believe butch women are just as butch as anyone else, just as masculine as anyone else, and then totally contradict themselves five minutes later with some other statement. It happens quite often. People of all gender identities do it.
It's sexism. It's the failure to truly conceive that women can fully embrace masculinity as butches and live our lives without apology or reservation for who we are. We are butch. Being a woman and female does not take away from butch, it does not take away from our masculinity.
WickedFemme
03-10-2010, 12:20 PM
Can I just say, "I love you all" for being yourselves and not giving in to pressure, expectations, etc...
I am so attracted to those who are comfortable in themselves and with themselves... the confidence and perseverance is so attractive and appreciated.
I don't really have anything to add other than I totally support each and every one of you. I know it's a painful journey for all of us especially in our society and in our world where anything outside the 'norm' is perceived as less than. It's so difficult not to run around with rejection issues and project them onto each other especially after being rejected by our own Country and denied rights that every American enjoys 'if' they are heterosexual.
I have grown so much from reading everyone's thoughts and feelings and knowing some of you outside these websites for years... I have gained so much and appreciate everyone for all of their contributions...thank you for being uniquely 'you'.
I am femme and I strap it on yet I'm not 'butch'. so, lets please not equate sexual positions with gender ID's... has nothing to do with it whatsoever.
Apocalipstic
03-10-2010, 12:41 PM
One of the things that strikes me from these posts is how much we as Femmes do to make things more difficult for Butches. (or easy)
The expectations we have.
The differences regionally or geographically in what is expected of a Butch by Femmes and vice versa. To open the door or not open the door. Who get the good parking space? who takes out the trash? cooks? kills the bugs and so forth.
I also must say that I agree strongly with Wicked Femme about sexual positions not equating gender ID. The expectation that the Butch is always the Top and always Dominant is not a realistic one.
On the other hand, there are things I have expected from Butches, which I know are sexist...or very boy/girl. I am learning to appreciate rather than expect.
Form my standpoint it can be very different dating a Butch who sees themselves as a man and one who does not. We say the difference is in just a word, but it's not. I wonder as Femmes, how much of a guy we expect our Butches to be as opposed to how much of one they are?
There are things I see now in retrospect that I could have done better to be supportive of Butches I have dated...some who now have transitioned and some who have not. Things I should not have said, or worded differently.
Unrealistic expectations.....
Which is why threads like this are so important as a learning tool. Yes, Butches who never get on the internetz may not know of gender ID wars, but they do know how it is to navigate the world being different and how great it would be to have friends and allies who care enough to learn what is important to them as Butch. Like honoring their choice of name and gender ID and not just assuming they will know how we expect them to act.
WickedFemme
03-10-2010, 01:00 PM
Apocalipstic, I agree so much with you. Had it not been for this community, I would have utterly remained in ignorance and continued to perpetuate a misogynistic sexist society even within the realm of a femme ID.
Because of people voicing about themselves, I have had to take a hard look at myself and evolve in my belief system(s), which I continue to do daily. I look back at where I stood ten years ago and the difference is amazing.. so, there is 'progress' happening no matter how small or large... it's happening because of all of us and beyond whether we agree or not.
I have really had to re-examine my expectations in regards to someone's ID and really get over myself in terms of putting myself into a 'box' of my perceived expectations. I no longer expect the 'butch' to pick up the check, hold the car door open, etc... If they do, it's nice but I try not to fall into that unrealistic expectation based upon some kind of social conditioning. The social conditioning is so incredibly difficult to overcome for each an every one of us. However, I think if we can make progress in terms of adjusting our own thoughts, attitudes and behaviors that eventually hopefully we'll reach some kind of acceptance not only of ourselves but the rest of our community members. It always starts with the "I" and hopefully translates into a "we"...
It's so liberating to let go of the old stuff and just 'be'... I am thoroughly enjoying myself more than I ever have and it just keeps getting better. I realize now that the posturing is nothing more than individual insecurities based upon preconceived notions and unrealistic expectations that we place not only on ourselves but project onto others.
I would really like to hear what more we can do to be supportive and more accepting.
Here's the short answer: "Just Butch" to me is and always was butch and female and/or woman... it's what I lived as my life as and it never stopped me from speaking, being, taking pride in myself as a female, a woman, a butch.
<snip>
I just feel like I'm playing into the very (online) politics that I don't support.
<snip>
If a online ID system is flawed and were using it, we're upholding it. I know the reason we're using it, to be seen, visible, but I feel like I can easily achieve that without it (we already have/do in R/L). I believe it works well for Male ID butches, and it's necessary for them. But I think it works against butches who identify with being female just in the fact alone it inadvertently draws away from the fact that most butches, real world and here are and are already recognized as female without having to qualify the word butch with an added ID to express it.
<snip>
Last... it just plain feels backwards (to me) to have to ID myself as a female because I'm a butch... and again it just feels like playing into the same online politics I don't support.
Metropolis
I don't support the online hullabaloo surrounding butch identity, either. And yes, I don't believe butch needs to be qualified as female, either. And yes, it feels backward to me as well. (But I know you already know that.)
I've yet to post an ID that says "female ID butch" or "woman ID butch", instead opting for "bulldagger" because it historically describes a butch woman like myself.
The flack surrounding defaulting to male when speaking of butch in an online setting is what prompted my responses and concerns. However, I'm thrilled if that's no longer going to be an issue. I sort of doubt it, though.
Metro and Beau, what both of you say does make a great deal of sense. I would like to just be Plain Ole Butch, but when butches who do consider themselves to be female and women don't speak up, the stereotypes and assumptions continue.
I also agree with Metro. I don't id as female, I am female. Woman identified butch? What is that. I am female and woman, and yes when we have to use it so we are not mistaken as being male identified it seems to come off as a qualifier for butch which does seem ass backwards to me. Most butches have female bodies, most butches live their lives as females, why are we using female as a qualifier for butch? Why are all the online defaults for butches male when most butches don't identify that way?
<snip>
Female and woman are already part of butch. It's redundant to say female or woman. For those who that doesn't apply to, I think it's up to them to specify what their meaning of butch is if that's important to them. "Female identified butch" came about as a reaction to male identified butch, not as something meaningful in and of itself.
<snip>
It's sexism. It's the failure to truly conceive that women can fully embrace masculinity as butches and live our lives without apology or reservation for who we are. We are butch. Being a woman and female does not take away from butch, it does not take away from our masculinity.
First, Bully, see what I responded to Metropolis above.
Further, the sexism part is what has bothered me all along. The post I made a couple of days ago trying to isolate reasons behind that was meant to address what I believe some of the root causes are for the sexism many of us witness online. Until those things aren't in play or at issue, I don't see much changing for butches in this arena. I'm always hopeful, though.
On the other hand, there are things I have expected from Butches, which I know are sexist...or very boy/girl. I am learning to appreciate rather than expect.
Form my standpoint it can be very different dating a Butch who sees themselves as a man and one who does not. We say the difference is in just a word, but it's not. I wonder as Femmes, how much of a guy we expect our Butches to be as opposed to how much of one they are?
<snip>
Which is why threads like this are so important as a learning tool. Yes, Butches who never get on the internetz may not know of gender ID wars, but they do know how it is to navigate the world being different and how great it would be to have friends and allies who care enough to learn what is important to them as Butch. Like honoring their choice of name and gender ID and not just assuming they will know how we expect them to act.
Thank you for this, Apocalipstic. Perhaps your posts (as well as Wickedfemme's) are an indication that this discussion is useful and may change attitudes surrounding butches.
Again, I'm always hopeful. :)
Lastly, I'm really done with picking apart my gender. I hope this thread can progress to a discussion of how we, as butches, face the world as women and conquer the patriarchal society's narrow-minded bullshit and not merely the disheartening nonsense we often encounter online. Because, to me, that's where our true strength matters for our entire community.
AtLast
03-10-2010, 06:23 PM
Thinking a lot (and have for years) about both female & male myths. Raising a male child in US society and wanting him to respect women as well as not be constrained by societal definitions of masculinity was difficult. He was not big on the usual sports except ballet (try to do ballet without being athletic) and had a dyke for a parent and grew up in a small, redneck town.
As a butch, some of the stereotypes of what is masculine make me nuts! These did as a heterosexual as well. I see a lot of these stereotypes perpetuated in our community. My female masculinity just does not fit with this at all. Nor do they for male-identified butches.
Met, that is where I reside at the moment. It is one thing I am extremely greatful for, the London genderqueer scene, is that although there are *some* internal ID politic arguments, most of those are from inter-personal cat fighting between long personal histories. There *is* "just butch". And yep, stone is kinda an aside thing. There but it's considered kind of describing a more... erm... personal *cough* aspect of one's sexuality that isn't really what people are interested in hearing over a pint.
Inks has met a few north american butches recently. And although she likes them, a lot, she does find the "preoccupation with constant self definition assertions" rather baffling and a tad "boring."
She finds the online stuff "horrific" and it's something she really doesn't get. I have explained where it comes from. But europeans have a totally different concept of space and community is different because of that tiny little personal space bubble and extremely long history of even a neighbourhood.
TBH, I'm not real confident in introducing her to any butch-femme scenes. I don't think she'd get it. We're used to hanging out with a big mix of people who don't give a single shit about our ID's. And we don't have to explain ourselves because no one cares - our personal relationship is kinda just that: our personal relationship dynamics and none of anyone else's biz. And everyone respects that. I don't tell my friend "I'm having butch problems..." if I have a fight. I tell her Inks and I are having a rough time and I'm stressed out.
the constant referal to qualifying someone else's gender doesn't happen. it seems to give us both a hell of a lot more room. the only time the word "butch" comes up is if it's *relevant* to the context of the conversation. and personally I prefer it that way. I find it suffocating and irritating if people keep refering to me as "femme" rather than "barb". I'm not a group of highly different people ffs. it's like someone saying "oh how woman of you." fuck off!
sorry, turned into a bit of rant there about my own shit... but I really don't wish to even attempt to get Inks involved in the on-line community. She prefers people who "get" her in person and luckily we have that luxoury in london, especially with the choice of genderqueer clubs.
That will disapear when we move back but somehow I doubt our personal relationship dynamics and our ID's won't be a problem to anyone we're friends with unless we make it that way.
Barb, I think that sounds like bliss. It's actually much the way we (C. and I) live, we don't get into any of the "discussions" or go about and about with peeps and worry about who's what and what's who stuff. Unless I know someone from here I have no idea how people identify or if they even do... nor does it matter (unless it's a pronoun thing and in that case I'm sure they'll tell us).
I think Ink will be just fine, not all of us are are all that interested in dissecting ourselves over a brew. I don't know about everyone else but aside from a few B-F get togethers for the most part we hang in a pretty mixed crowd too. Truth though I can't blame you on the online stuff, it's crazy making. Think I'd be pretty used to it, and I love the community but damn... I've definitely never had so many wtf moments r/l. I'm sure I've caused a few of those in others though also... go figure ;) But I have to say the ID stuff I've had enough of (on my part) and I really just want to just be... feels fucking good.
Any way yep, I do think we agree. Hey, let me know when you two get over here, won't quite be neighbors but if you two head down the coast it might be good to share a brew... and talk about non-gender related issues... ;)
I don't support the online hullabaloo surrounding butch identity, either. And yes, I don't believe butch needs to be qualified as female, either. And yes, it feels backward to me as well. (But I know you already know that.)
I've yet to post an ID that says "female ID butch" or "woman ID butch", instead opting for "bulldagger" because it historically describes a butch woman like myself.
The flack surrounding defaulting to male when speaking of butch in an online setting is what prompted my responses and concerns. However, I'm thrilled if that's no longer going to be an issue. I sort of doubt it, though.
Oh I'm certain it will still be an issue, my choice not to use the online F/W ID'd I didn't think would flip things on their head, it really was more something Martina's thoughts sparked in me that I'd been itchy about for a long time... and just what's right for me.
My longer explanation was more to your concerns, to say it would not change online visibility to do so, also put out my reasoning behind what I was thinking (and maybe a little extra). Not how it was going to change the world... I'm plotting that tomorrow, well not change, more take over.
**********snip*******
Lastly, I'm really done with picking apart my gender. I hope this thread can progress to a discussion of how we, as butches, face the world as women and conquer the patriarchal society's narrow-minded bullshit and not merely the disheartening nonsense we often encounter online. Because, to me, that's where our true strength matters for our entire community.
Truth, and I'm sure the conversation will evolve to all those things. I think it ends up hitting on a lot of online issues because there are so many , and well it's here on top of it...
...and I think a lot of it ends up intertwined. Partially why I spoke about aligning my "identity" back to what it always has been real world, and dropping the online ID qualifiers that I felt were tangling me up and seemingly differentiating.
[/SIZE][/FONT]
Still mulling you're "Round 2" post...
Back to you regularly scheduled program.
Luckydwg07
03-10-2010, 08:24 PM
"convey level of butchiness"
This is true to me....
Its a reason why I spend more time with my gay friends (men) and queens because we talk, joke & support each other's choices in life.
Its wonderful that we have this avenue to discuss but at the end of the day in my world I don't find any kinship with the butches I know but for 1
I find more freindship here online ...hell maybe its because I've been flying solo for so long? I'm a very appraochable person
I feel a competative nature everytime I am in a group of butchess its not fun it's more of a test! I careless what people think I'm made of and in the same breath wish for more understanding.
Thankyou for this thread
One thing I'd like to see talked about, and I think it's a huge problem... is the equating of Female ID and Women ID to soft or less masculine.
Frankly, honestly... truly...
... it's just plain sexist (and perhaps misogynistic where it's not being ignorant).
Being, acknowledging, IDing as, having pride in and saying openly one is a female or women as well as butch does not mean one is stating they're less butch. Where people get that I don't know... except that I do.
Butches of all ID's come in all flavors, being Male or Female ID isn't an indicator of cooking skills, mechanic skills... musical preferences... musculature... facial characteristics... cuppa joe or latte... it just isn't meant to convey level of butch-ness.
It's not only dissing Female ID but it places stupid expectations on Male ID to be X Y Z... it really works against everyone.
This is a fascinating thread on a subject that has been on my mind a lot lately. Whem, I first came out, albeit shortly after The Last Supper, identity was relatively simple. Aside from the individual identifiers, the "lesbian" community was about women who were sexually and emotionally attracted to other women.
Today, I see a very strong masculine presence in the community in various forms. It is disconcerting. I talk to way to many young lesbians who are not only confused about their sexual orientation but their gender preference as well.
Maybe it is expanding the possibilities, but I liked it better when life was simplier.
Cyclopea
03-10-2010, 09:27 PM
Proud Butch Woman here. Represent!
Enjoying the thread- thanks to all who have posted.
:thumbsup:
This is a fascinating thread on a subject that has been on my mind a lot lately. Whem, I first came out, albeit shortly after The Last Supper, identity was relatively simple. Aside from the individual identifiers, the "lesbian" community was about women who were sexually and emotionally attracted to other women.
Today, I see a very strong masculine presence in the community in various forms. It is disconcerting. I talk to way to many young lesbians who are not only confused about their sexual orientation but their gender preference as well.
Maybe it is expanding the possibilities, but I liked it better when life was simplier.
Hey Kobi (and a hey to Luckdwg07 :cool:) *
I'm wondering what's "disconcerting" to you about "masculine presence" in our communities. I would certainly hope my masculinity wouldn't be disconcerting to anyone, especially in LBGQT communities.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.. but I'm slightly perplexed with that statement... especially in a Butch Femme forum?
Thanx in advance for any explanation...
Metro
*And a big hey to Cyclopea for representin'
Free ===> :freetoaster:
*s*
.
.
Cyclopea
03-10-2010, 10:13 PM
*And a big hey to Cyclopea for representin'
Free ===> :freetoaster:
*s*
.
.
I thought this :freetoaster: was a video game controller, lol. But toasters are good too- thanks Met!
:clap:
"I'm wondering what's "disconcerting" to you about "masculine presence" in our communities. I would certainly hope my masculinity wouldn't be disconcerting to anyone, especially in LBGQT communities."
Hi Metro
By "masculine presence" , and I will apologize in advance to anyone I might inadvertently offend, I was referring to lesbians who disown their femaleness.
"I'm wondering what's "disconcerting" to you about "masculine presence" in our communities. I would certainly hope my masculinity wouldn't be disconcerting to anyone, especially in LBGQT communities."
Hi Metro
By "masculine presence" , and I will apologize in advance to anyone I might inadvertently offend, I was referring to lesbians who disown their femaleness.
Ok, I understand, but will say I don't find that disconcerting at all... some peeps just need to be themselves, and if they aren't female then the simply aren't female.
I don't think that should be disconcerting to someone it doesn't really have two hoots to do with anyhow, but it's your prerogative, I just don't agree.
There's room for all of us.
Metro
"Ok, I understand, but will say I don't find that disconcerting at all... some peeps just need to be themselves, and if they aren't female then the simply aren't female.
I don't think that should be disconcerting to someone it doesn't really have two hoots to do with anyhow, but it's your prerogative, I just don't agree."
Metro,
The nice thing about the world is we all are entitled to our opinions. And we nicely agree to disagree.
Male energy is much different from female energy. And, there is a distinct difference in interactions. But thats just my opinion. :)
I'm wary of defining energy on top of all the other definitions floating around that serve only to constrict or limit me and/or my choices.
I'm very masculine in terms of my presentation and my "energy" - or so I've been told - but that doesn't equate to male. It is female masculinity. I wear it proudly. I'm still a woman. That juxtaposition is where I feel my butch energy.
And yes, if one is not a female, there's no reason to claim woman, and many in these forums are not lesbians. That doesn't make anyone who owns their male identity unwelcome in space we all share equally. This is a community of queers of many stripes, and as Metropolis said, there's plenty of room for us all.
Beau
Queerasfck
03-11-2010, 10:15 AM
This is a fascinating thread on a subject that has been on my mind a lot lately. Whem, I first came out, albeit shortly after The Last Supper, identity was relatively simple. Aside from the individual identifiers, the "lesbian" community was about women who were sexually and emotionally attracted to other women.
Today, I see a very strong masculine presence in the community in various forms. It is disconcerting. I talk to way to many young lesbians who are not only confused about their sexual orientation but their gender preference as well.
Maybe it is expanding the possibilities, but I liked it better when life was simplier.
Hi Metro
By "masculine presence" , and I will apologize in advance to anyone I might inadvertently offend, I was referring to lesbians who disown their femaleness.
The nice thing about the world is we all are entitled to our opinions. And we nicely agree to disagree.
Male energy is much different from female energy. And, there is a distinct difference in interactions. But thats just my opinion. :)
Kobi,
Maybe you could come back in and be more specific about what you're trying to say. Because right now I read it as you trying to be the gender police.
apretty
03-11-2010, 10:30 AM
Male energy is much different from female energy. And, there is a distinct difference in interactions. But thats just my opinion. :)
as is 'butch energy', as is 'queer' energy.
Martina
03-11-2010, 10:37 AM
The energy thing assumes all others can read it loud and clear. That's not always the case. The energy thing, i think, has more to do with dynamics between individuals. As far as i am concerned, if people ID as butch, they are butch, no matter what i may or may not pick up from them. Same with femme.
apretty
03-11-2010, 10:39 AM
The energy thing assumes all others can read it loud and clear. That's not always the case. The energy thing, i think, has more to do with dynamics between individuals. As far as i am concerned, if people ID as butch, they are butch, no matter what i may or may not pick up from them. Same with femme.
absolutely agree, that was my point--i re-read and thought my post could be confusing. (sorry, if that was the case!)
Luckydwg07
03-11-2010, 11:27 AM
I guess you could say I'm disconcerting to others in our community. I am strong & masculine in my womanly frame..I am totally butch I've had many descriptions pinned to my chest. I do enjoy the company of all. What they want to be is up to them. When people feel good about who they are one can tell & enjoy knowing them.
Maybe some are not ok with their place in life & so they are upset with me. I can't figure it out. I just stay on the fringe with my door open.
hope I didn't muddy the waters more!!
Hey Kobi (and a hey to Luckdwg07 :cool:) *
I'm wondering what's "disconcerting" to you about "masculine presence" in our communities. I would certainly hope my masculinity wouldn't be disconcerting to anyone, especially in LBGQT communities.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.. but I'm slightly perplexed with that statement... especially in a Butch Femme forum?
Thanx in advance for any explanation...
Metro
*And a big hey to Cyclopea for representin'
Free ===> :freetoaster:
*s*
.
.
BullDog
03-11-2010, 11:42 AM
I don't support the online hullabaloo surrounding butch identity, either. And yes, I don't believe butch needs to be qualified as female, either. And yes, it feels backward to me as well. (But I know you already know that.)
I've yet to post an ID that says "female ID butch" or "woman ID butch", instead opting for "bulldagger" because it historically describes a butch woman like myself.
The flack surrounding defaulting to male when speaking of butch in an online setting is what prompted my responses and concerns. However, I'm thrilled if that's no longer going to be an issue. I sort of doubt it, though.
First, Bully, see what I responded to Metropolis above.
Further, the sexism part is what has bothered me all along. The post I made a couple of days ago trying to isolate reasons behind that was meant to address what I believe some of the root causes are for the sexism many of us witness online. Until those things aren't in play or at issue, I don't see much changing for butches in this arena. I'm always hopeful, though.
Thank you for this, Apocalipstic. Perhaps your posts (as well as Wickedfemme's) are an indication that this discussion is useful and may change attitudes surrounding butches.
Again, I'm always hopeful. :)
Lastly, I'm really done with picking apart my gender. I hope this thread can progress to a discussion of how we, as butches, face the world as women and conquer the patriarchal society's narrow-minded bullshit and not merely the disheartening nonsense we often encounter online. Because, to me, that's where our true strength matters for our entire community.
I don't think of butch women speaking up as being part of online butch identity politics, but I do agree that using "identified" as part of describing butch can play into to it. There is no "war." From now on I will make it clear that I am Butch who is female and woman, but not "identified" anything.
I think we do still need to speak up about sexism when it occurs, but picking apart gender, yeah it's getting real old.
Yes talking about how butches face and deal with the world as strong females and women in a patriarchal world sounds a lot more empowering. One small thing that does make me smile is when kids are curious about me. Sometimes they will ask me if I am a boy or girl. I say girl. Some other kids just play with me and don't think about it one way or another. I'm just happy when kids see butches as part of the normal spectrum of people in this world and their lives.
Apocalipstic
03-11-2010, 12:29 PM
I don't think of butch women speaking up as being part of online butch identity politics, but I do agree that using "identified" as part of describing butch can play into to it. There is no "war." From now on I will make it clear that I am Butch who is female and woman, but not "identified" anything.
I think we do still need to speak up about sexism when it occurs, but picking apart gender, yeah it's getting real old.
Yes talking about how butches face and deal with the world as strong females and women in a patriarchal world sounds a lot more empowering. One small thing that does make me smile is when kids are curious about me. Sometimes they will ask me if I am a boy or girl. I say girl. Some other kids just play with me and don't think about it one way or another. I'm just happy when kids see butches as part of the normal spectrum of people in this world and their lives.
My nephew calls Cynthia the "girl who looks like a boy". :) He loves her. When we go see them he runs in with his arms full of nerf guns and says "choose your weapon!". I get more of "wow Aunt Jenny, you aren't very good at video games...." :)
Allison W
03-11-2010, 10:48 PM
This is a fascinating thread on a subject that has been on my mind a lot lately. Whem, I first came out, albeit shortly after The Last Supper, identity was relatively simple. Aside from the individual identifiers, the "lesbian" community was about women who were sexually and emotionally attracted to other women.
Today, I see a very strong masculine presence in the community in various forms. It is disconcerting. I talk to way to many young lesbians who are not only confused about their sexual orientation but their gender preference as well.
Maybe it is expanding the possibilities, but I liked it better when life was simplier.
"I'm wondering what's "disconcerting" to you about "masculine presence" in our communities. I would certainly hope my masculinity wouldn't be disconcerting to anyone, especially in LBGQT communities."
Hi Metro
By "masculine presence" , and I will apologize in advance to anyone I might inadvertently offend, I was referring to lesbians who disown their femaleness.
This compelled me to de-lurk. I have to ask--when you say that ("lesbians who disown their femaleness"), are you talking about male-ID'd butches, transmen, or something else entirely?
~~~
Now that I'm here, though, I'd like to thank Metropolis for starting this thread. Over on the dash site, which I still do visit, I do often find that male ID'd butches and transmen are frequently regarded as the default (a particularly striking example perhaps being the name of the butch bonding forum--Butch Bruthas? No Butch Sistahs?), with butch women frequently thought of afterward, if at all. Which isn't to say I'm against acceptance of male-ID'd butches and transmen, but I don't accept the marginalization of butch women--in the straight world, let alone their own communities. My moral support isn't worth much, but suffice it to say if there's anything I can do to support you in a more useful fashion, I'd be happy to.
Luckydwg07
03-12-2010, 08:55 AM
I will say that out in public I feel confident. I do have people stare/examine me but I look at them and give a smile & a hello. 99% of the time I get a hello back. I am part of society & the human race no doubt.
AtLast
03-12-2010, 11:12 AM
I
I think we do still need to speak up about sexism when it occurs, but picking apart gender, yeah it's getting real old.
Yes talking about how butches face and deal with the world as strong females and women in a patriarchal world sounds a lot more empowering. One small thing that does make me smile is when kids are curious about me. Sometimes they will ask me if I am a boy or girl. I say girl. Some other kids just play with me and don't think about it one way or another. I'm just happy when kids see butches as part of the normal spectrum of people in this world and their lives.
These points hit the spot, Bully!!!
It is about sexism... it is not about gender!!! Gender is fluid and frankly, I am grateful that within my lifetime, gender ignorance is being fought. Not just for the TG/I, all Butches, Femmes.... all of us here, but for every human being. Sexism is the culprit I want to see erradicated.
Yes, when I am simply a human being among the masses, I am a happy camper! Just me, strong, female masculine woman living my life, being myself!
Yet, I do run into (as we all do) unique circumstances as a consequence of my female masculinity. I'm not as sensitive to much of this as I once was, but, there are times it just plain sux! I hate it that just in terms of safety, I will not take public transportaion when going to events/activities in which I am putting on the butch like wearing a tie or tux. And that i do a mental inventory about getting anything I need at the store before I get dressed to go, so I don't have to go into a store... dappered-up.[/But the fact of the matter is, my rapid transit route intersects with a city in which a butch was kidnapped and gang raped and I'm not taking chances. Having had quite a few instances in my life in which I was physically attacked (or just about to be) because of how I look, does influence my behavior and choices. And I live 25 minutes from SF! I have been harassed on BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) within the last few years. Verbal abuse is one thing... being beaten or raped is quite another!
daisyfm
03-13-2010, 03:24 PM
Great thread! I thanked so many already!
My favorite part about butch women is that they are two things i like a lot: butch and women. period. two for one. the best of both worlds, the masculine and the feminine in perfect unison... music to my soul, my mind, etc, you get the picture. And when the part "woman" is rejected it is sad to me and I can understand it and respect it, yet I don't have to agree with certain things.
A lot of what is said here, and a lot of what happens in real time truly
makes me wonder why some people would want to fit in the binary system.
In my real time community I am seeing it a lot among both lesbian and trans groups. Nowadays everyone wants marriage and maybe children, and maybe a house, to live within the "binary security walls". Once upon a time, we were all outlaws and wanted to live as far away from the binary as possible. Go figure. Times change. I know that even if as a high femme I pass in the straight world I am NOT one of them for sure, I might never be in a binary system, I have lost jobs for being out (twice) and I don't want to be one of them either!
So yeah...what Butches have to deal with due to patriarchy is a lot. Period.
Even if they are out on a job, rarely do wives/partners get invited to corporate events, or picnics, and in other fields, there is much discrimination as well.
Words
03-13-2010, 05:03 PM
Maybe it is expanding the possibilities, but I liked it better when life was simplier.
Simpler for whom?
For you, perhaps. But not for those who had the audacity to be 'other'.
What feels safe is my lumping myself into a space I kind of can slide by in... what feels less safe is a middle ground between two huge accepted gender designations.
"Other"... no matter where I go there I am facing it including here. Though I keep grasping at those straws, trying to place myself into "one or the other" (binary- woman or man) and once again when I do find myself uncomfortably in a position of just not quite belonging. There's only one place I had that I felt I could breath... and that was in my while back acknowledgment of "The Other Genders".
A couple months ago I'm looking at an old photo of myself (teenage for retroweek) and it triggered a strong desire to find the contentedness in her eyes, and I thought I found it in her being happy in her being "her", BUT totally missed that it's just her being ignorant (and blissful in that ignorance) to the implications of who s/he is/was and what it would mean in the world.
Then I get a bigger damn wake up, I wrote this thread for female or women butches... and hit submit, and the itchiness began. The more I try to speak from that position... the more itchy I get, the more that it's not right feeling rises up and the more I realize to I need to be forthright with myself and here. My body is female yes and will always be and I'm happy with that (though it tends to random masculine traits it's no doubt on the more female on the bits side)... but my mind is quite "other", it is very pangender, or androgyne, male and female by birth or by lived life... what ever it is what it is.
My self acceptance is a process in which denial has played too large a part and needs to be gotten over... I really want to just be who I am and it starts with owning it. I was going to re-write this and post it tomorrow but what the hell...
Metropolis
*still a female but perhaps not in the same sense this thread has and may follow*
-------------------------------------------------
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be?
AtLast
03-13-2010, 11:05 PM
Other, yes, other. For me, other is the mix of female & male .... a merging and this feels right to me. Yet, it does not feel like what we have traditionally conceived via the gender binary. It is something other and needs no modification. Nuturance, yes, change, no. But, this is the other that fits for me, not everyone. This is how it has always been for me.
I just want to have a respected place in which I am seen for my character, not my gender. And not feel that I have to continually fight for recognition as the female I am. Nor do I want to be a more masculine woman that I am or put on false male bravado to be accepted as butch. This is out of character for me.
What I am is just a butch and happy with this.
BullDog
03-14-2010, 02:59 PM
I don't believe that the gender binary that we all seem to complain about is really the major problem. Sure more than two genders do exist and should be recognized. However, it's the stereotypes and limitations placed on the gender roles that are recognized (man and woman) that are what is most damaging. Sexism is the primary cause of this. If there were no limitations or stereotypes placed on women, than many more females would not find woman to be problematic as their gender or part of their gender. Some still would.
However, having a gazillion gender identities doesn't get us any freer than we were before. Sexism is alive and well in queer culture, as much as it ever has been. The fact that lesbian, butch femme and queer communities can't seem to come to grips with the fact that women can fully embrace their masculinity and still be fully female and fully woman is a symptom of this.
I fully embrace woman as I do butch. It's empowering to me because I have a right to fully embrace woman as much as I do butch and masculinity. It's important for me to stand with other women- whether butch, femme, lesbian, queer or straight.
I also don't think it's easier to embrace woman than Other, nor do I think it plays into the binary.
I don't believe that the gender binary that we all seem to complain about is really the major problem. Sure more than two genders do exist and should be recognized. However, it's the stereotypes and limitations placed on the gender roles that are recognized (man and woman) that are what is most damaging. Sexism is the primary cause of this. If there were no limitations or stereotypes placed on women, than many more females would not find woman to be problematic as their gender or part of their gender. Some still would.
However, having a gazillion gender identities doesn't get us any freer than we were before. Sexism is alive and well in queer culture, as much as it ever has been. The fact that lesbian, butch femme and queer communities can't seem to come to grips with the fact that women can fully embrace their masculinity and still be fully female and fully woman is a symptom of this.
I fully embrace woman as I do butch. It's empowering to me because I have a right to fully embrace woman as much as I do butch and masculinity. It's important for me to stand with other women- whether butch, femme, lesbian, queer or straight.
I also don't think it's easier to embrace woman than Other, nor do I think it plays into the binary.
Bully I don't know if this is a response to me or your having random thoughts but...
I don't think claiming woman plays into the binary either, unless of course you don't feel like one and you do anyway... that does play into the binary.
With that I don't think that other genders claiming women if we don't own it furthers those identities (and "Other" has been around as long as female or male and also very oppressed) nor does it further women... or make either any "freer".
Bully, in the same way you embrace being a woman as you do butch, I have the "right" to fully embrace being "other" as I do butch... and like you it's empowering to me to embrace who I am... and to still stand with everyone who was born female in this sexist world... whether they be butch, femme, lesbian, queer or straight.
I don't think you have to be "woman" to feel some of the sting of or fight sexism... I'm still a female and I didn't break free from that ball and chain (sexism). But really if all genders fought it... not just women (or as women) it wouldn't even exist. Somehow I think I'm far from finished in fighting sexism and misogyny, whether from the mouths of butch, other genders, males or right from the mouths of women... you know... fight the real enemy, sexism... not those that aren't women.
And... I do think the binary's a "major problem" in the very least it's being held over peoples heads as "the normal" (including all butches etc.), in the worst if you don't fit into it, it can mean becoming just another hate crime statistic.
Peace
Metro
ETA: I, myself, don't want to go into the politics of how my gender as a female who doesn't identify as women affects women as a whole... I pretty much am dropping the politics of gender in favor of accepting myself in my gender and exactly what it is for me, not for what it does for/to others.
It's not about anyone else and I'm happy to keep it that way and just be done with all the should or shouldn't(s) of gender, I've done that too much already.
BullDog
03-14-2010, 05:00 PM
Metro, I'm not fighting anyone who doesn't claim woman and don't think only women can fight against sexism. I've also never said anyone didn't have a right to fully embrace what felt right to them more than I did.
I think I am weary of all the gender talk for now. I am not seeing any progress, and I see women continue to be de-valued in our queer communities.
peace,
Bully
ETA: I understand for you gender is not political. However, we will never be accepted for our genders without social change.
Metro, I'm not fighting anyone who doesn't claim woman and don't think only women can fight against sexism. I've also never said anyone didn't have a right to fully embrace what felt right to them more than I did.
I think I am weary of all the gender talk for now. I am not seeing any progress, and I see women continue to be de-valued in our queer communities.
peace,
Bully
ETA: I understand for you gender is not political. However, we will never be accepted for our genders without social change.
And I don't disagree with any of this, I was responding to your inference that claiming other genders didn't make women any freer... and your relating it all in with the fight on sexism. I guess I assumed you were engaging with it.
Metro
*who is also pretty tired of talking about gender I'd like to see this thread continue in the spirit it was intended with or without me... doesn't matter... if not it's just another opportunity lost*
BullDog
03-14-2010, 06:07 PM
And I don't disagree with any of this, I was responding to your inference that claiming other genders didn't make women any freer... and your relating it all in with the fight on sexism. I guess I assumed you were engaging with it.
Metro
*who is also pretty tired of talking about gender I'd like to see this thread continue in the spirit it was intended with or without me... doesn't matter... if it doesn't it's just another opportunity lost*
Metro I wasn't making that inference. I would try to explain, but I am a bit talked out at the moment. Peace.
Metro I wasn't making that inference. I would try to explain, but I am a bit talked out at the moment. Peace.
Ok Bull... no need to explain, I know I can take you at your word and I'll just re-read a little.
Thanx,
Metro
BullDog
03-14-2010, 07:51 PM
Thanks Metro.
BullDog
03-14-2010, 07:54 PM
How come when it comes to "fighting the binary" only woman is abandoned as gender? If the man/woman binary is so damaging why isn't man as gender being discarded by gender conscious males as well? I realize we are a community comprised mainly of female bodied people. However, I haven't heard of large numbers of gay men abandoning the gender man. Man is also used very commonly by FTMS as their gender. I don't see significant numbers of lesbians and femmes abandoning woman as gender. Just among butches. Yet women can embrace masculinity as much as anyone.
In the butch femme community, as well as queer community at large, I see a proliferation of masculine identities but not so much with feminine identities. When femmes do try to claim various identities for themselves they are often questioned about it and not given a whole lot of support.
So everyone should claim gender as they see fit but the pattern remains- more distancing from woman. Man? Not so much. My rhetorical question is, how is this "fighting the binary" when it is so one sided?
How come when it comes to "fighting the binary" only woman is abandoned as gender? If the man/woman binary is so damaging why isn't man as gender being discarded by gender conscious males as well? I realize we are a community comprised mainly of female bodied people. However, I haven't heard of large numbers of gay men abandoning the gender man. Man is also used very commonly by FTMS as their gender. I don't see significant numbers of lesbians and femmes abandoning woman as gender. Just among butches. Yet women can embrace masculinity as much as anyone.
In the butch femme community, as well as queer community at large, I see a proliferation of masculine identities but not so much with feminine identities. When femmes do try to claim various identities for themselves they are often questioned about it and not given a whole lot of support.
So everyone should claim gender as they see fit but the pattern remains- more distancing from woman. Man? Not so much. My rhetorical question is, how is this "fighting the binary" when it is so one sided?
Personally... and I can only speak for myself... the- evolution- of- my- gender- had- nothing- to- do- with- fighting- the- binary. I was what I am before I ever heard of or thought about "the binary".
I'm fighting the binary now because my spot (gender) in life is in direct contrast with it and it's (the binary) damaging to me and people I care about as well.
As far as it being predominantly born females embracing other gender... I've never seen that... as far as I've seen there's more than plenty of male born Trans, MTF Androgynes, Pangender, even Flamers... etc.
Hardly a butch phenomenon so I don't know how to address that. Anyway like I said I'm tired of talking about this subject in the context of Other Genders.
And with that I'll vacate and let the conversation go where it may... but I needed to say that.
Peace out,
Metro
P.S. I (personally) didn't "abandon" the gender of woman... I simply made a correction to a gender that was assigned to me by a binary society that still can't see the possibilities of more than two genders... and didn't see my possibilities.
BullDog
03-14-2010, 09:24 PM
Metro, we seem to not be understanding each other too well at the moment. On a personal level your gender identity comes from within to match the person you feel you are. Mine does too. Identifying as butch is what feels right to me.
I understand more than two genders need to be recognized. I am not feeling a sense of balance with the whole "fighting the binary" that I keep hearing people talk about, and don't see what is being fought for or to what end. From my perspective woman gets lost in the shuffle, but I guess I am taking this too far afield from your intent. I am out too.
peace,
Bully
AtLast
03-14-2010, 09:51 PM
Woman/female as less than continues to dominate our society even within a community such as this, that claims diversity and equality and constantly measures butchness from a male perspective. Which is really ass-backwards as butch is historically female.
AtLast
03-15-2010, 02:37 AM
How come when it comes to "fighting the binary" only woman is abandoned as gender? If the man/woman binary is so damaging why isn't man as gender being discarded by gender conscious males as well? I realize we are a community comprised mainly of female bodied people. However, I haven't heard of large numbers of gay men abandoning the gender man. Man is also used very commonly by FTMS as their gender. I don't see significant numbers of lesbians and femmes abandoning woman as gender. Just among butches. Yet women can embrace masculinity as much as anyone.
In the butch femme community, as well as queer community at large, I see a proliferation of masculine identities but not so much with feminine identities. When femmes do try to claim various identities for themselves they are often questioned about it and not given a whole lot of support.
So everyone should claim gender as they see fit but the pattern remains- more distancing from woman. Man? Not so much. My rhetorical question is, how is this "fighting the binary" when it is so one sided?
Something that strikes me here (and does in general, especially as I have been involved in the B-F community) is that we do not look at this fight in terms of MtF's as equal warriors! Or, is this simply an extension of dominance and superiority? Sure, I see that the numbers of MtF's identifying as femme are much lower, but I just can't see where we get off that we are so damn gender conscious when we fail to recognize this part of the LGBTI community. I view this as very sexist and just more of the same relegation of the female to just not as important. Interesting, as the stats (as well as they can be gathered), point to higher numbers of MtF's overall.
As much as I embrace gender theory and see it as a means to unlock so many contraints (and personally, do see myself as Other gendered, 3rd gendered in many ways, pangendered is one to explore - all of which are not transgendered what is, will remain), I still see the same old man's world around me.
As a butch, I continue to fight not having what is female about me recognized and respected (by both butches & femmes). There are threads that continue to dismiss me as female and only consider what is masculine about me. And those that measure my worth as a butch by what fucking kind of underwear I wear!!
What really makes me nuts is the acceptance of stereotypes of men as being positive masculinity! These representations don't look like the men I know, love and respect. Thank-the-fucking-Goddesses!
I wish we would get back to what we experience as butches within the context of being female. I believe there are some areas of this experience that are very unique and just as injustices/discrimination of transgendered people need to be recognized, so do these variables.
Female is devalued at large and the female butch is devalued within the queer world as well.
have to add that I also see that many TG men here are actually much more aware of sexism than quite a few female-identified butches. One thought I have about this is that maybe it is because of their transitioning and all of the varied groups, organizations, even classes they are exposed to. So many of these experiences could expose sexism.
BullDog
03-15-2010, 11:51 AM
Something that strikes me here (and does in general, especially as I have been involved in the B-F community) is that we do not look at this fight in terms of MtF's as equal warriors! Or, is this simply an extension of dominance and superiority? Sure, I see that the numbers of MtF's identifying as femme are much lower, but I just can't see where we get off that we are so damn gender conscious when we fail to recognize this part of the LGBTI community. I view this as very sexist and just more of the same relegation of the female to just not as important. Interesting, as the stats (as well as they can be gathered), point to higher numbers of MtF's overall.
As much as I embrace gender theory and see it as a means to unlock so many contraints (and personally, do see myself as Other gendered, 3rd gendered in many ways, pangendered is one to explore - all of which are not transgendered what is, will remain), I still see the same old man's world around me.
As a butch, I continue to fight not having what is female about me recognized and respected (by both butches & femmes). There are threads that continue to dismiss me as female and only consider what is masculine about me. And those that measure my worth as a butch by what fucking kind of underwear I wear!!
What really makes me nuts is the acceptance of stereotypes of men as being positive masculinity! These representations don't look like the men I know, love and respect. Thank-the-fucking-Goddesses!
I wish we would get back to what we experience as butches within the context of being female. I believe there are some areas of this experience that are very unique and just as injustices/discrimination of transgendered people need to be recognized, so do these variables.
Female is devalued at large and the female butch is devalued within the queer world as well.
have to add that I also see that many TG men here are actually much more aware of sexism than quite a few female-identified butches. One thought I have about this is that maybe it is because of their transitioning and all of the varied groups, organizations, even classes they are exposed to. So many of these experiences could expose sexism.
Yes I agree there is very little discussion about MTFs when gender is discussed in butch femme circles. I do agree that it's sexism. I would also like to say I very much appreciate the support that trans women give to butch women. Whenever there is a discussion about butch women they always show their support. They are true gender warriors and great allies.
I don't think femmes get recognized nearly enough for their gender transgression or being gender warriors either.
Masculinity is closely associated with male/non-woman in butch femme/queer circles.
None of these things make me very confident that much is being done to effectively fight the binary. As I said earlier it's very much oriented to the masculine (non-woman versions) side of things.
Hopefully there can be more talk about the positive aspects of being butch females and women. I don't have anything to add in that regard at the moment.
AtLast
03-30-2010, 01:37 PM
Any other thoughts? Seems like we never really got to the extent of our experiences.....
BullDog
10-10-2010, 02:46 PM
If you introduced me as she or ze, either is correct. I don’t claim the pronoun he.
I do claim the pronoun "she." My body is the site of oppression and resistance as female and as a butch lesbian. There are no borders in my embattled body between the fight against women's oppression, sexual oppression and trans oppressions.
Taking me out of the category of female skews understanding of the spectra of gender expressions and weakens the struggle for women’s liberation, as well as trans liberation and lesbian/gay/poly sexual liberation.
My life has been shaped by the apparent contradiction between my birth sex and my gender expression. And I've been shaped by being a masculine lesbian female who found community, or perhaps more accurately: communities, plural, and together against a common enemy.
- Leslie Feinberg (author of Stone Butch Blues)
http://open.salon.com/blog/robin_sneed/2010/10/10/leslie_feinberg_wins_butch_voices_lifetime_achieve ment_award
AtLast
10-10-2010, 03:19 PM
I'm reeling from an incident a few days ago in which my being a butch woman directly relates to my being threatened with bodily harm and threats of continued stalking.
Whenever (or, if) I feel comfortable with a discussion about it, I'll post the details. Because it involved a male POCs within a city that just has a violent rep (especially against butch women) and unfortunately, strong racial tensions, it is especially sensitive. Still processing personally.
swagger
11-11-2010, 02:00 AM
atlasthome - are you ok??
AtLast
05-17-2011, 04:51 AM
Bumping for re-examination... hopefully.
Revel in your strength... there's nothing weak about a female and/or women who flips a bird to the naysayers, the peer pressure, binary expectations and walks into "a mans world" every single day with masculinity and a proud swagger to boot without giving up any part of being respected as a female and/or women. This is a space is for rapping about living life openly as a female and/or woman who holds by societal standards "too much" masculinity for the world to be comfortable with... and how we deal with the good the bad and the just plain ugly that comes our way.
The world we live in already is inherently deeply mired in misogyny and sexism, fallacies of masculinity and who owns/wears the boxers and who owns/wears the panties in the arena of the sexes. Sexist innuendo based on a patriarchy's cultural misnomers that women can't be masculine, can't wear the boxers and if they do it's easier to understand if they claim man in them. When we speak and take space in the outside world and in our own communities it's often challenged, we're often put to task to explain as to reason or need, considered insubordinate radicals, wave-makers, put on the defensive, patrolled... insecurities abound.
For good reason? Perhaps... because the patriarchy has something to defend... has something to lose. Something that seemingly has to be taken as it's been proven it not going to be graciously given, and females/women are more than able, and less than willing to be bullied out of it. I find even we here in our own communities we haven't escaped it and it's even more ridiculous, frankly sad to see it played out in LBGQT, Butch Femme communities.
I think something that's not recognized is that Butch Women/Female ID face a special unique set of challenges internally in (but not just limited too) struggling to integrate who we are against binary and patriarchal teachings masculinity = man, but also outwardly/externally being recognized in for both masculinity and female/women simultaneously and seamlessly. It isn't an easy road to navigate or explain. In the real world our women-hood is challenged and we often find ourselves on the outside of women looking in, in Butch Femme communities our masculinity is challenged and we find ourselves relegated a lesser form of masculinity, put on a spectrum, and often replied to with masculine pronoun by default. Is this so bad? It is when it's shrugged off and treated as not as important an issue, not equally offensive or defended as intensely as a male being called a women... it is when it's serving to make us less visible just in it's erasure of the s in she... cyberspace and real world.
Add to that the here and there sexist covert remarks from individuals of all identity... I've heard from "I date X-ID only b/c I want to be the only one in bed with the panties" and from... "I don't identify as relate as female because I "- always played with trucks? Only wears man's clothes? Don't feel feminine? Are masculine? Take a masculine role in life/relationships? Guess what!... stand in line, me too.
Something I find a very personal affront, and again making Women or Female ID seem less visible, and seems to act as silencing, is when our experiences are dismissed as less valid or universal. That somehow because we're butches and we're all born female with masculinity, that it's been the same for XYZ... the "don't forget X's knows what it's like they used to be there too" (except when the shoes on the other foot then their/it's not the same).
I'm sorry but when I'm treated by a patriarchal society like "a woman", treated differently with inequality I don't have the defense of saying (or even thinking) don't treat me that way I'm a man, treat me like a man. It's in no way the same internal experience. I have to take it upon me as an affront on me, not that they've mistaken my gender. I'm the one who has to deal internally with living woman in a mans world, with knowing, yes I am, what they're dissing. I'm the one who'll take that head on from the trenches my entire life.
Bottom line I've looked at that and life through a female existence, a masculine woman's internal space. Yes, there is real experience shared by butches, in treatment we received at a glance from the outside, from strangers... but after that experience is internal perspective and the lens you view the world from. I won't try to claim another's personal experiences as always having viewed the world from a male view, growing up as a boy in a female body if one doesn't try to claim to have looked through my eyes as a female/woman, growing up struggling internally to first understand, then preserve and exert my identity as female when by society standards I acted/behave lived like a boy... and continual fight for my right to do so without being a man or referred to as one... to have my masculinity accepted/respected as valid as a female.
That all trickles down differently, unique perspectives, trials, stories... lived experiences... not a worse or better issue, difference. Maybe this all would be understood better if not dismissed and essentially derailed, droned over by "me too's" that are actually out of place and I often find suspect because of it's sided fashion... "I know what it's like to be you... but you don't know what it's like to be me". Frankly that's not possible.
So... this is about masculinity owned by females/women, those who own it unapologetically without attributing it to anything except who they are as strong Butch Female/Women. Many ID's, certainly some, can relate to some of the experiences here, as we can strongly to some of theirs but this space is intended to discuss our unique perspectives, and as we respect others space, ours is no less valuable and I believe necessary.
That said, I think we have a responsibility to ourselves, and to all women to stand up too, take space, speak on the non-equality in the unique spaces we occupy. If Women ID Female ID butches are treated differently it's solely because of the word women and female... and I can guarantee you the sexist and misogynistic messages aren't focused to just the butches, they extend right though out to all females and women by default.
Ok, to be clear, this is a Butch Female ID and or Butch Woman ID positive space, if you just want to say "I'm a Butch Female (ID) and I don't give a shit what anybody thinks!" say just that. It's about our minds, our bodies, unique experiences, comradery, dead seriousness (and occasional nonsensical general ridiculousness hopefully)... and for supporters and allies of our identity to speak of their own experiences.
This is taking equal space, that we and those who support us come here to find we have some, as I've heard expressed needed... this is not intended to be divisionary. I hope everybody does their best to speak from the "me - I" place and refrain from making judgments about or generalizing others identities. Call me crazy, but, in the end I believe we'd fight together better for our spaces in a homophobic misogynistic world and be a better example if we started by defending each other equally in our own spaces.
Strength and Pride.
Metropolis
*talked out (perhaps for life ; )) but will return*
BullDog
05-17-2011, 09:27 AM
Thanks for the bump AtLast. If I had something articulate to say right now I would. I hope more people will re-read and participate. Thank you to Metropolis for her wise words.
*Anya*
08-04-2012, 04:13 PM
This thread needed a bump, even if by a femme...
mariamma
08-04-2012, 10:16 PM
Butches of all ID's come in all flavors, being Male or Female ID isn't an indicator of cooking skills, mechanic skills... musical preferences... musculature... facial characteristics... cuppa joe or latte... it just isn't meant to convey level of butch-ness.
It's not only dissing Female ID but it places stupid expectations on Male ID to be X Y Z... it really works against everyone.
hi to everyone reading this. I'm responding to something from 2 years ago but I believe it's salient still. Maybe this has been addressed already... the twin-souled or maybe not?
Historically, there have been women who are also like men and the men who are also like women. They are known in Native American tradition as twin spirited or twin-souled and traditionally are the spiritual leaders of the People since they are able to speak for both genders and can often commune with the Creator/Source. This is old (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neith) Amazonian (http://www.myrine.at/Amazons/libya.html) tradition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons). There have been Amazon women and transgendered since the dawn of time.
The links I posted did not mention that in 2000 years ago, Lybia was considered an Amazonian land and Lybia was known as Africa. Transgendered and genderqueer have historically been known as Shaman and the spiritual leaders of the People.
So how does a genderqueer (both) male-id or female id cope???? Bio-dudes can at times look at you and ponder, "Do I fuck or fight h/er?" and male ID or female ID can ignore the beautiful synergy that is the twinned-spirited. How does one express his and/or her soul? And how does one focus and find love in the chaos of our world?
girl_dee
08-04-2012, 10:21 PM
i'd like to add that i am totally in love with how my butch partner embraces butch, woman and fierce in the world. Some of her town interactions (Firefighting for example) are male dominated and she rises above the cloud of patriarchal BS every time.
Her whole disposition is a hot and confident butch woman swagger.
mariamma
08-04-2012, 10:23 PM
No, sexism is alive and well!
What I am amazed with is that feminism is what brought gender studies into being! I am so sick of the lack of historical knowledge and understanding of what a social movement is! feminism in its attempt to erradicate sexism, bring to light the negatives in sex-role stereotypes and fight the patriarchy, laid the foundation for transformation of the gender binary!
Ignorance continues as bliss! And thgere is no excuse for remaining ignorant here, as research into this is a click away! No one needs a degree to gain insight into the role of feminism in the development of gender enlightenment1
My you're cute when you bring out the can of whoop-ass :poc-bleah: Yes, this is a re-argument of feminist theory. However not all have studied feminism 101. A
It was interesting to reread this thread. It was interesting to discover I even posted in it way back when.
It has always felt odd to me to have to quantify and qualify the person and woman I am. I never aspired to be anything other than a female and a woman.
It was very clear to me at an early age that their were distinct differences between how males and females were seen and treated in our society. Yet, there didnt seem to be words for this until I was in my early teens. When I found the womens movement, back in its infancy, it was an aha! moment for me. Finally there was something that spoke to the person and woman I was.
It bothers me, to this day, when I am referred to both within and outside of our community as a masculine woman. I dont see myself as a masculine anything. I see myself as a woman who has always aspired to things that have traditionally been seen as the perogative of the masculine members of our human species.
I never sought to be masculine or to emulate masculine. I sought to redefine and expand female and woman. I am pro-female not anti-male.
It bothers me when I am not seen as a female in my own community or when I have to qualify it. It bothers me when I address something that is uniquely female i.e. pms or hot flashes and my words are judged to be sexist. And, that the words are seen as sexist based on how my identity is perceived.
Yet, I often have to do a rethink and reassess when I see something that strikes me as sexist or perhaps disrespectful to women because of how I perceive the id of the person posting it.
And, I always have to be mindful that what I might see as disrespectful to women may not be what another woman sees as disrespectful.
Complicated stuff. To me, the patriarchy is so ingrained in us through our socialization, the messages are so insidious and so pervasive that it is very difficult to not internalize this stuff to some degree. Thus, a single event, thought, word, action can be experienced in a multitude of ways depending on who is interpreting it using what filters in what context.
I dont know if I can explain this very well but I also see patriarchy steeped in binary concepts which extend throughout much of what we experience. We can talk about breaking out of the binary but can we? Is it realistic?
We talk about a spectrum but the spectrum is based on variations within the binary i.e. male-female, masculine-feminine, butch-femme, ying-yang, femaleid-maleid. The binary is the frame of reference we work from. We can modify it but can we break free from it?
mariamma
08-04-2012, 10:53 PM
Something that strikes me here (and does in general, especially as I have been involved in the B-F community) is that we do not look at this fight in terms of MtF's as equal warriors! Or, is this simply an extension of dominance and superiority? Sure, I see that the numbers of MtF's identifying as femme are much lower, but I just can't see where we get off that we are so damn gender conscious when we fail to recognize this part of the LGBTI community. I view this as very sexist and just more of the same relegation of the female to just not as important. Interesting, as the stats (as well as they can be gathered), point to higher numbers of MtF's overall.
As much as I embrace gender theory and see it as a means to unlock so many contraints (and personally, do see myself as Other gendered, 3rd gendered in many ways, pangendered is one to explore - all of which are not transgendered what is, will remain), I still see the same old man's world around me.
As a butch, I continue to fight not having what is female about me recognized and respected (by both butches & femmes). There are threads that continue to dismiss me as female and only consider what is masculine about me. And those that measure my worth as a butch by what fucking kind of underwear I wear!!
What really makes me nuts is the acceptance of stereotypes of men as being positive masculinity! These representations don't look like the men I know, love and respect. Thank-the-fucking-Goddesses!
I wish we would get back to what we experience as butches within the context of being female. I believe there are some areas of this experience that are very unique and just as injustices/discrimination of transgendered people need to be recognized, so do these variables.
Female is devalued at large and the female butch is devalued within the queer world as well.
have to add that I also see that many TG men here are actually much more aware of sexism than quite a few female-identified butches. One thought I have about this is that maybe it is because of their transitioning and all of the varied groups, organizations, even classes they are exposed to. So many of these experiences could expose sexism.
This resonated with me mostly because I too see that MtF transgendered are treated as less than yet, they often feel more like a woman energetically than male-ID or butch women. And transwomen will often experience more violence, trauma, hurt and pain in order to be see as they truly are than bio-dames or butch women. It's such a stigma to express estrogen that some love to beat up any that express E.
And it saddens me that any feel devalued because of how they run their energy. Transgendered women and men tend to feel this way because they have the hormonal levels of the genders (or genders) they feel. I think all of medicine did a collective "D'OH!" when they saw those figures.
Parker
08-09-2012, 05:38 AM
Even after sitting on it for what, 4 days, I cant seem to get past my anger at the above post telling me that transwomen "feel more like a woman" and "experience more violence" than I do as a butch woman. I'm trying to let it go because I dont want to derail the thread even further, but it just reiterates to me how, to some people, butches are just not seen as women.
Then when it comes to the pronouns and how when I correct someone who calls me he/hy online, they get pissed off at me, like I did something offensive by telling them I am a woman who prefers she; or when someone tells me they prefer butches who use he/hy because they like their butches more masculine, it reiterates to me that, to some people, butch women are still seen as less than and not masculine "enough" because we are women .... or worse, like we arent really even butches at all.
I see variations of these things almost everyday and it makes me feel invisible as a woman AND as a butch.
It's interesting how this thread is well over 2yrs old and things havent really changed - I can read Metro/Jett's and Bulldog's posts from then and they resonate within me now. There were so many posts I wanted to quote, I had to finally just stop hitting the little multi-quote button. lol
It's one thing to be misunderstood by the world at large - hell, I expect that because in their heads, masculine = male and feminine = female so to see someone like me: a butch woman who, even though I dont bind or pack, I still unintentionally pass as male 90% of the time every single day ... it just blows their fucking minds and their belief system goes all haywire on them.
Even in the lesbian community at large, butches and femmes are still sometimes seen as emulating a male/female couple from the 1950's - outdated and conforming to the binary.
So it really bothers me when that same mentality crosses over into a community like this - where butches are treated as men, even if we dont ID that way. We are expected to dress, talk, walk, and act a certain way, have sex a certain way, etc. and if we deviate from that maleness, we are considered less than.
Intellectually, I understand it is all rooted in sexism - masculinity and maleness is valued more in this patriarchal society than femininity and femaleness - but it doesnt suck any less to see it laid out in front of me day after day.
girl_dee
08-09-2012, 06:09 AM
Even after sitting on it for what, 4 days, I cant seem to get past my anger at the above post telling me that transwomen "feel more like a woman" and "experience more violence" than I do as a butch woman. I'm trying to let it go because I dont want to derail the thread even further, but it just reiterates to me how, to some people, butches are just not seen as women.
Then when it comes to the pronouns and how when I correct someone who calls me he/hy online, they get pissed off at me, like I did something offensive by telling them I am a woman who prefers she; or when someone tells me they prefer butches who use he/hy because they like their butches more masculine, it reiterates to me that, to some people, butch women are still seen as less than and not masculine "enough" because we are women .... or worse, like we arent really even butches at all.
I see variations of these things almost everyday and it makes me feel invisible as a woman AND as a butch.
It's interesting how this thread is well over 2yrs old and things havent really changed - I can read Metro/Jett's and Bulldog's posts from then and they resonate within me now. There were so many posts I wanted to quote, I had to finally just stop hitting the little multi-quote button. lol
It's one thing to be misunderstood by the world at large - hell, I expect that because in their heads, masculine = male and feminine = female so to see someone like me: a butch woman who, even though I dont bind or pack, I still unintentionally pass as male 90% of the time every single day ... it just blows their fucking minds and their belief system goes all haywire on them.
Even in the lesbian community at large, butches and femmes are still sometimes seen as emulating a male/female couple from the 1950's - outdated and conforming to the binary.
So it really bothers me when that same mentality crosses over into a community like this - where butches are treated as men, even if we dont ID that way. We are expected to dress, talk, walk, and act a certain way, have sex a certain way, etc. and if we deviate from that maleness, we are considered less than.
Intellectually, I understand it is all rooted in sexism - masculinity and maleness is valued more in this patriarchal society than femininity and femaleness - but it doesnt suck any less to see it laid out in front of me day after day.
Speaking from this femmes POV it frustrates me a bit to have to (sometimes repeatedly) correct people that my partner is a she. She does not want to be a he, never has. They seem shocked at that, probably because she is butch. i want to be with a she, i am myself more comfortable with that so we fit well.
i have never wanted to emulate the life of straight folks, i don't want to look like them, i don't want to have sex like them and i don't want to be referred to as MAN/WOMAN..i don't want it to be expected that i want to be with a *male* ID'd partner.
Thank you Parker for so eloquently saying what I often feel. And, I appreciate you relating this to sexism in our society.
It seems to me, we as women, have an easy time identifiying sexism as it relates to employment issues, salary issues, sexual harrassment and the like. We have a harder time seeing how our internalized sexism and misogyny affects how we see and treat other women. I suspect we also have a harder time seeing how this internatized stuff affects how we treat masculinity within this community.
In the same vein, internalized sexism and misogyny also affects our dating/mating rituals in ways that can be concerning. And, I am not referring to what happens in private between consenting adults. I am referring to what occurs in a public arena.
To me, there is no difference between a cis male publicly calling attention to his penis, wanting it worshipped, and enumerating on what he wishes to do with it, and someone in this community doing the same thing. To me, they are both examples of women being used as sex objects for sexual gratification and titillation.
Some people may like that, tho I am wondering if they like and/or are aware of what that attitude conveys. Women are not one dimensional beings. And one can easily appreciate all women are and flirt with them without being sexist about it.
Invisibility is an area we need to rethink. It seems to me, many of us, for different reasons, feel invisible to our own people. Yet rather than rally around "invisibility" as an issue for our community to grapple with, we get sidetracked by trying to decide who has the greater right to be pissy about it. The common demoninator here is "invisibility" not id's. Yet, there is a tendency to make people feel more invisible by not acknowledging what they are feeling and why they are feeling it.
Dee also raises an interesting point about how she wishes to be seen and how she chooses to partner. Makes sense to me and I applaud her independent thinking. And, I am sure, on the whole, it will be well received.
However, if I as a female butch say I will only date women who exclusively date other women because this reflects who I am and what I am all about, will it be received with the same respect?
Speaking from this femmes POV it frustrates me a bit to have to (sometimes repeatedly) correct people that my partner is a she. She does not want to be a he, never has. They seem shocked at that, probably because she is butch. i want to be with a she, i am myself more comfortable with that so we fit well.
i have never wanted to emulate the life of straight folks, i don't want to look like them, i don't want to have sex like them and i don't want to be referred to as MAN/WOMAN..i don't want it to be expected that i want to be with a *male* ID'd partner.
CD,
Thank you for articulating thoughs and feelings I've had myself.
For me:
I would date a male id'd woman. One that desires too be called he, I find this more difficult for me, but would personally not limit myself by this alone.
xo,
~Bleu
BullDog
08-09-2012, 08:38 AM
Transwomen most certainly do face a lot of oppression, sexism, violence etc. They often get the double whammy of being treated in some of the most extreme forms of sexism I have ever seen combined with extreme forms of transphobia. So transwomen certainly do face a lot.
So I am not comparing my situation. Yet to say that butch women do not face violence and sexism as a woman is just ridiculous. In fact just because someone uses He or Hy online doesn't mean they aren't going to out in the world either. They face the same things too.
The idea that just because someone uses the pronoun he or hy online means they are more butch and/or more masculine is a big huge joke to me and anyone who knows or meets butches in the real world will know that it isn't true. Yet it continues to get perpetuated.
Unfortunately some of us have been saying the same things for way more than 2 years.
mariamma
08-09-2012, 09:42 AM
I see why you'd be upset. I was speaking in gross generalities, not of specific people. Gross generalities never apply whole to individuals. I'm sorry my comment never considered you and your experience. However I wasn't trying to speak for any individual but in generalities.
And by my comment, Transwomen feel more like women" is my observation of energy. Energetically....they feel more like women. This is my experience. I am speaking for myself. I don't expect everyone to agree with my senses or perceptions. Some feel twin-souled meaning I get a hit of both genders flowing at once towards me.
I find that many bio-dames like to compete with me. Personally, I hate to compete. It makes me feel unclean. I have yet to experience a competitive vibe with a transwoman. Maybe that's why I feel this way?? We can just get to the connecting and Sisterhood part of life and leave the petty bitchiness behind.
I understand that my comment did not take in consideration anyone elses' perspective. It wasn't my intention to include everyone HOWEVER it is not my intent or will to have my opinion accepted as gospel by anyone. IT IS NOT. It is my opinion.
Historically, the twin-souled are the shaman or spiritual leaders of the community. Meaning LGBTI for 10,000s of years have had this place of honor. We spoke with God, the spirits and healed the community and the lands. This birthright has been devalued by Patriarchy as women and E have been devalued. It is because we know, respect and understand all our hormonal expressions that we can commune with God as well as teach others how to make that connection.
In Asian martial arts, it is the practitioner who can balance Yin and Yang (E & T) who grows in wisdom and ability. Taoism (like most religions) is remarkablily similar to shamanism. Taoism probably is the most generally known version of this. Point is, we all have been turned invisible. We all have been devalued. We generally have this experience as bio-dames but we all have this in common. Don't let my version or perspective dictate you or your experience. I know your experience will be different from mine. I look for universalities and seek connection thru those universalities. But that's just how I roll.
Even after sitting on it for what, 4 days, I cant seem to get past my anger at the above post telling me that transwomen "feel more like a woman" and "experience more violence" than I do as a butch woman. I'm trying to let it go because I dont want to derail the thread even further, but it just reiterates to me how, to some people, butches are just not seen as women.
Then when it comes to the pronouns and how when I correct someone who calls me he/hy online, they get pissed off at me, like I did something offensive by telling them I am a woman who prefers she; or when someone tells me they prefer butches who use he/hy because they like their butches more masculine, it reiterates to me that, to some people, butch women are still seen as less than and not masculine "enough" because we are women .... or worse, like we arent really even butches at all.
I see variations of these things almost everyday and it makes me feel invisible as a woman AND as a butch.
It's interesting how this thread is well over 2yrs old and things havent really changed - I can read Metro/Jett's and Bulldog's posts from then and they resonate within me now. There were so many posts I wanted to quote, I had to finally just stop hitting the little multi-quote button. lol
It's one thing to be misunderstood by the world at large - hell, I expect that because in their heads, masculine = male and feminine = female so to see someone like me: a butch woman who, even though I dont bind or pack, I still unintentionally pass as male 90% of the time every single day ... it just blows their fucking minds and their belief system goes all haywire on them.
Even in the lesbian community at large, butches and femmes are still sometimes seen as emulating a male/female couple from the 1950's - outdated and conforming to the binary.
So it really bothers me when that same mentality crosses over into a community like this - where butches are treated as men, even if we dont ID that way. We are expected to dress, talk, walk, and act a certain way, have sex a certain way, etc. and if we deviate from that maleness, we are considered less than.
Intellectually, I understand it is all rooted in sexism - masculinity and maleness is valued more in this patriarchal society than femininity and femaleness - but it doesnt suck any less to see it laid out in front of me day after day.
I see why you'd be upset. I was speaking in gross generalities, not of specific people. Gross generalities never apply whole to individuals. I'm sorry my comment never considered you and your experience. However I wasn't trying to speak for any individual but in generalities.
And by my comment, Transwomen feel more like women" is my observation of energy. Energetically....they feel more like women. This is my experience. I am speaking for myself. I don't expect everyone to agree with my senses or perceptions. Some feel twin-souled meaning I get a hit of both genders flowing at once towards me.
I find that many bio-dames like to compete with me. Personally, I hate to compete. It makes me feel unclean. I have yet to experience a competitive vibe with a transwoman. Maybe that's why I feel this way?? We can just get to the connecting and Sisterhood part of life and leave the petty bitchiness behind.
I understand that my comment did not take in consideration anyone elses' perspective. It wasn't my intention to include everyone HOWEVER it is not my intent or will to have my opinion accepted as gospel by anyone. IT IS NOT. It is my opinion.
Historically, the twin-souled are the shaman or spiritual leaders of the community. Meaning LGBTI for 10,000s of years have had this place of honor. We spoke with God, the spirits and healed the community and the lands. This birthright has been devalued by Patriarchy as women and E have been devalued. It is because we know, respect and understand all our hormonal expressions that we can commune with God as well as teach others how to make that connection.
In Asian martial arts, it is the practitioner who can balance Yin and Yang (E & T) who grows in wisdom and ability. Taoism (like most religions) is remarkablily similar to shamanism. Taoism probably is the most generally known version of this. Point is, we all have been turned invisible. We all have been devalued. We generally have this experience as bio-dames but we all have this in common. Don't let my version or perspective dictate you or your experience. I know your experience will be different from mine. I look for universalities and seek connection thru those universalities. But that's just how I roll.
Ok this post is making me twitch and not in a good way.
First of all, I, for one, do not appreciate being referred to a bio-dame. I am female and a woman. "Dame" has a regal connotation in British history. In American history, it has more of a derogatory connotation. Perhaps you need to figure that into the not generalizing you mentioned.
Secondly, this is a thread for the experiences of butch women in a patriarchal society and I do not wish to derail that into a different focus.
However, you did mention something that does fit into the current conversation and perhaps is a good example of how we internalize our patriarchal socialization and how it colors our perceptions of other people.
You mentioned your energy work, and how the energy of a transwoman feels different to you. You said your interpretation of this difference is because "bio-dames" compete with you and it make you feel unclean. Yet, you dont experience the same competition with a transwoman. And somehow, you have deduced that because of this, transwoman energy feels more "woman-like" to you.
Has it occured to you that you have been socialized since birth to feel this exact thing? Has it occured to you that females are socialized to compete against other females? Has it occured to you that women have been socialized to feel unclean and all the variations that come with unclean?
Has it occured to you that transwomen you are speaking about have not been socialized since birth in the same way? And, perhaps, the differences you are feeling and your interpretation of them is the differences in socialization being filtered thru your own internalized sexism and misogyny?
Has it occured to you that this internalization extends to the words we use, the concepts we believe, and the pronouncements we make which all serve to reinforce the patriarchy and screw other women in the process?
BullDog
08-09-2012, 11:53 AM
Why would someone say some women feel more like women than others? Why pit women against women? Besides, some transwomen are butches. Transwomen are just as diverse in their energy, gender and sexuality as any other group of people.
mariamma
08-09-2012, 12:20 PM
I did derail the thread into my own personal trip. That wasn't cool. For this reason primarily I will bow out. I am not butch. This isn't a thread for me to opine in, and then derail the process with my personal interpretation.
I apologize.
Peace and Blessings
Ok this post is making me twitch and not in a good way.
First of all, I, for one, do not appreciate being referred to a bio-dame. I am female and a woman. "Dame" has a regal connotation in British history. In American history, it has more of a derogatory connotation. Perhaps you need to figure that into the not generalizing you mentioned.
Secondly, this is a thread for the experiences of butch women in a patriarchal society and I do not wish to derail that into a different focus.
However, you did mention something that does fit into the current conversation and perhaps is a good example of how we internalize our patriarchal socialization and how it colors our perceptions of other people.
You mentioned your energy work, and how the energy of a transwoman feels different to you. You said your interpretation of this difference is because "bio-dames" compete with you and it make you feel unclean. Yet, you dont experience the same competition with a transwoman. And somehow, you have deduced that because of this, transwoman energy feels more "woman-like" to you.
Has it occured to you that you have been socialized since birth to feel this exact thing? Has it occured to you that females are socialized to compete against other females? Has it occured to you that women have been socialized to feel unclean and all the variations that come with unclean?
Has it occured to you that transwomen you are speaking about have not been socialized since birth in the same way? And, perhaps, the differences you are feeling and your interpretation of them is the differences in socialization being filtered thru your own internalized sexism and misogyny?
Has it occured to you that this internalization extends to the words we use, the concepts we believe, and the pronouncements we make which all serve to reinforce the patriarchy and screw other women in the process?
Parker
08-09-2012, 01:58 PM
<snip>
It seems to me, we as women, have an easy time identifiying sexism as it relates to employment issues, salary issues, sexual harrassment and the like. We have a harder time seeing how our internalized sexism and misogyny affects how we see and treat other women. I suspect we also have a harder time seeing how this internatized stuff affects how we treat masculinity within this community.
In the same vein, internalized sexism and misogyny also affects our dating/mating rituals in ways that can be concerning. And, I am not referring to what happens in private between consenting adults. I am referring to what occurs in a public arena.
<snip>
Invisibility is an area we need to rethink. It seems to me, many of us, for different reasons, feel invisible to our own people. Yet rather than rally around "invisibility" as an issue for our community to grapple with, we get sidetracked by trying to decide who has the greater right to be pissy about it. The common demoninator here is "invisibility" not id's. Yet, there is a tendency to make people feel more invisible by not acknowledging what they are feeling and why they are feeling it.
<snip>
<snip>
Secondly, this is a thread for the experiences of butch women in a patriarchal society and I do not wish to derail that into a different focus.
However, you did mention something that does fit into the current conversation and perhaps is a good example of how we internalize our patriarchal socialization and how it colors our perceptions of other people.
<snip>
Yeah, that shit made me twitch too, so I am moving on .....
The internalized stuff is huge because we dont always see it - and even when it is pointed out to us, we still dont always see it .... sometimes, even just having it pointed out to us can make us angry because it goes against what we have been conditioned to believe for how ever long we've been around.
That internalized stuff comes from our conditioning that masculine and maleness is valued more than femininity and femaleness. From birth, girls are ingrained with this idea - we are treated differently than boys, we are given different toys, told what games to and not to play, etc. and we are shown that in most, if not all ways, boys are more valued.
Hell, when I was 16 years old, my parents got me an old 1972 Pontiac LaManns in banana yellow - and I loved the hell out of that car lol. A year and a half later, when my little brother turned 16, they took the car from me and gave it to him, telling me that "boys need cars" and that if I wanted to get a ride somewhere, I should ask a boy or find a boy with a car to date.
This wasnt in the 1950s - this was in the mid-late 1980s - but I do understand that a lot of what they said and felt came from their own upbringing in the 50s.
From an early age until I left home - and even after I left home and was in the Navy (and dont get me started on how the Navy treated/treats women with what jobs we can and cannot do!) - I was taught by my parents who I was supposed to be and that I would never be as good as a boy or man; that being male was the top of the pyramid. Hell, all the way through college and well into being in the Navy, all my mom wanted for me was to find a nice rich man to take care of me - a sugar daddy - because, apparently, I couldnt take care of myself.
I have to wonder if that's part of why I almost transitioned when I was in my early 20s. I never wanted to be a man, but so many people already thought I was a man and so many others were telling me I should transition that I thought that maybe I should just get it over with (I still, to this day, have people telling me I should transition). I started to hate the woman in me because, according to what I had learned so far, she was holding me back, keeping me from certain jobs, clothing, sports, etc.
It took me such a long time to realize it was society that was fucked up, not me.
I wanted to add that I am not in any way trying to say that I dont like men or male id butches or that I think they are bad or somehow wrong - I am not trying to imply that I have had it worse off than anyone else - I dont play the oppression olympics .... we all face violence, we all feel invisible at one time or another, and we all can have feeling of being devalued.
I am just speaking about my experiences as a butch woman walking through this patriarchal world.
I wanted to add that I am not in any way trying to say that I dont like men or male id butches or that I think they are bad or somehow wrong - I am not trying to imply that I have had it worse off than anyone else - I dont play the oppression olympics .... we all face violence, we all feel invisible at one time or another, and we all can have feeling of being devalued.
I am just speaking about my experiences as a butch woman walking through this patriarchal world.
This made me start thinking.....did you ever notice how we, as women, have been socialized to put qualifiers in the things we say?
We should be able to just speak what we experience or feel and it should stand on its own as a reflection of our experience.
Yet, we are taught to be mindful of how something we say or feel might impact on others and to acknowledge it and address it in some way.
Parker
08-09-2012, 03:04 PM
This is true .... I have to wonder if that stretches into the realm of labels, for lack of a better term. I rarely ever hear gay men - the gay men in my experience and my circles (to add another qualifier lol) - talk about being male or female ID'd - save for the occasional butch or femme reference, nor do I hear a lot of my gay men friends speak in terms of cis- this or that, for them, it is straight up gay, straight, men, women.
But thb, I learned some of it on-line as well - because if we were irl, you could see my face, hear my tone and inflections and you would know that I was speaking for and about me, while not diminishing others; you would know that 99% of my sarcasm and humor is said and meant with zero malice because that's just how I am - a sarcastic smartass who means no harm.
On-line though, my sarcasm and humor can sometimes come across as asshole-ish behavior and I have had people in the past take posts like that and think I was trying to diminish others by speaking of my experiences; so have I learned to add a lot of :) and :winky: and sometimes, like above, just flat out say that I wasnt trying to marginalize others.
girl_dee
08-09-2012, 07:44 PM
[QUOTE=Kobi;629689]
<snip>
Dee also raises an interesting point about how she wishes to be seen and how she chooses to partner. Makes sense to me and I applaud her independent thinking. And, I am sure, on the whole, it will be well received.
However, if I as a female butch say I will only date women who exclusively date other women because this reflects who I am and what I am all about, will it be received with the same respect?
</snip>
[COLOR="Navy"]
Thanks Kobi and i didn't even realize i was in the butch zone, but i do love this sort of thread because i want to learn about others.
Kobi, i imagine your statement is the same as me saying for ME, i only wish to date women who do not want to become a transman or pass as a man. i feel like that reflects who i am and what i am all about. Lot's of wonderful people in the world, but i am only attracted to certain traits... i imagine some may find that offensive?
CherylNYC
08-09-2012, 10:26 PM
Yeah, that shit made me twitch too, so I am moving on .....
The internalized stuff is huge because we dont always see it - and even when it is pointed out to us, we still dont always see it .... sometimes, even just having it pointed out to us can make us angry because it goes against what we have been conditioned to believe for how ever long we've been around.
That internalized stuff comes from our conditioning that masculine and maleness is valued more than femininity and femaleness. From birth, girls are ingrained with this idea - we are treated differently than boys, we are given different toys, told what games to and not to play, etc. and we are shown that in most, if not all ways, boys are more valued.
Hell, when I was 16 years old, my parents got me an old 1972 Pontiac LaManns in banana yellow - and I loved the hell out of that car lol. A year and a half later, when my little brother turned 16, they took the car from me and gave it to him, telling me that "boys need cars" and that if I wanted to get a ride somewhere, I should ask a boy or find a boy with a car to date.
This wasnt in the 1950s - this was in the mid-late 1980s - but I do understand that a lot of what they said and felt came from their own upbringing in the 50s.
From an early age until I left home - and even after I left home and was in the Navy (and dont get me started on how the Navy treated/treats women with what jobs we can and cannot do!) - I was taught by my parents who I was supposed to be and that I would never be as good as a boy or man; that being male was the top of the pyramid. Hell, all the way through college and well into being in the Navy, all my mom wanted for me was to find a nice rich man to take care of me - a sugar daddy - because, apparently, I couldnt take care of myself.
I have to wonder if that's part of why I almost transitioned when I was in my early 20s. I never wanted to be a man, but so many people already thought I was a man and so many others were telling me I should transition that I thought that maybe I should just get it over with (I still, to this day, have people telling me I should transition). I started to hate the woman in me because, according to what I had learned so far, she was holding me back, keeping me from certain jobs, clothing, sports, etc.
It took me such a long time to realize it was society that was fucked up, not me.
I wanted to add that I am not in any way trying to say that I dont like men or male id butches or that I think they are bad or somehow wrong - I am not trying to imply that I have had it worse off than anyone else - I dont play the oppression olympics .... we all face violence, we all feel invisible at one time or another, and we all can have feeling of being devalued.
I am just speaking about my experiences as a butch woman walking through this patriarchal world.
Exactly! I highlighted the part of your post that seems to never be spoken about or aknowledged in our community. It's still percieved to be soooo much cooler to be a man than it is to be a woman. Butches are sometimes pressured into transitioning, and it's all about misogyny. I've seen/heard trans and male IDed people from within and without the bf community exert that pressure, and it makes me sick. I never let it pass. I'm an old school lesbian feminist, and I will NEVER allow anyone to get away with telling a woman that she ought to become a man.
Parker, I'm so sorry that you've had to hear that, and that you continue to hear it. I also highlighted your disclaimer. I understand that you have good reason to feel that a disclaimer must be appended. I wish we could simply say, "We don't want to be men" without having to sooth the possibly outraged males who may perceive our matter-of-fact statements of female ID as an insult to themselves.
The phenomenon bears a strong resemblance to the responses I've read here on this site whenever men are criticized. Five of the first six responses to a linked article written by a trans guy about the incredibly offensive things men say to each other about women when they think they are amongst themselves essentially said, "You shouldn't criticize men because women are terrible." Yes, I know that's somewhat reductive, but that was the strong, clear message I took away from that exchange.
I was treated similarly to you within my family. My parents told my sister and I that we would have to get scholarships to college, but that they would find a way to pay for my brother's education. He would be responsible for supporting a family, after all. (Those conversations happened in the 1970's, and he has not, as yet, supported anyone at all.) We have a long way to go before we can eradicate the internalized misogyny that was and is inflicted on us.
CherylNYC
08-09-2012, 10:31 PM
This made me start thinking.....did you ever notice how we, as women, have been socialized to put qualifiers in the things we say?
We should be able to just speak what we experience or feel and it should stand on its own as a reflection of our experience.
Yet, we are taught to be mindful of how something we say or feel might impact on others and to acknowledge it and address it in some way.
Whoops. I was busy writing my own missive while Kobi beat me to the punch with her far more succinct post.
Yeah, that shit made me twitch too, so I am moving on .....
The internalized stuff is huge because we dont always see it - and even when it is pointed out to us, we still dont always see it .... sometimes, even just having it pointed out to us can make us angry because it goes against what we have been conditioned to believe for how ever long we've been around.
That internalized stuff comes from our conditioning that masculine and maleness is valued more than femininity and femaleness. From birth, girls are ingrained with this idea - we are treated differently than boys, we are given different toys, told what games to and not to play, etc. and we are shown that in most, if not all ways, boys are more valued.
Hell, when I was 16 years old, my parents got me an old 1972 Pontiac LaManns in banana yellow - and I loved the hell out of that car lol. A year and a half later, when my little brother turned 16, they took the car from me and gave it to him, telling me that "boys need cars" and that if I wanted to get a ride somewhere, I should ask a boy or find a boy with a car to date.
This wasnt in the 1950s - this was in the mid-late 1980s - but I do understand that a lot of what they said and felt came from their own upbringing in the 50s.
From an early age until I left home - and even after I left home and was in the Navy (and dont get me started on how the Navy treated/treats women with what jobs we can and cannot do!) - I was taught by my parents who I was supposed to be and that I would never be as good as a boy or man; that being male was the top of the pyramid. Hell, all the way through college and well into being in the Navy, all my mom wanted for me was to find a nice rich man to take care of me - a sugar daddy - because, apparently, I couldnt take care of myself.
I have to wonder if that's part of why I almost transitioned when I was in my early 20s. I never wanted to be a man, but so many people already thought I was a man and so many others were telling me I should transition that I thought that maybe I should just get it over with (I still, to this day, have people telling me I should transition). I started to hate the woman in me because, according to what I had learned so far, she was holding me back, keeping me from certain jobs, clothing, sports, etc.
It took me such a long time to realize it was society that was fucked up, not me.
I wanted to add that I am not in any way trying to say that I dont like men or male id butches or that I think they are bad or somehow wrong - I am not trying to imply that I have had it worse off than anyone else - I dont play the oppression olympics .... we all face violence, we all feel invisible at one time or another, and we all can have feeling of being devalued.
I am just speaking about my experiences as a butch woman walking through this patriarchal world.
I spent a lot of time mulling this over today and having flashbacks to less pleasant times.
Having grown up in a very traditional Italian family, the message was very clear.....girls/females/women behavior, dress, think, aspire to, prefer, defer, etc certain things. I very much felt female but the traditions didnt fit who I was, how I behaved, how I thought, what I aspired to, or how I preferred to dress.
Heck, I even remember the day my brother told me I didnt wash my hands like a girl. There was a girls only way of washing hands? Really? I remember watching people wash their hands after that. I didnt have the words for it back then, but today I can say it was really weird to me that people ascribed masculine and feminine to something as mundane as handwashing. Little did I know how deep and far reaching that dichotomy ran.
There was never a disconnect inside of me, or between my internal self and my body. There was a disconnect between the internal me and the external world. Society was saying my way of being female was being interpreted as being masculine/male-like and that was not a good thing.
When I came out as a young adult, once again, what felt perfectly normal and natural to me was framed into something else because I didnt fit the norm of what being a woman was about back then. So, who I was was transformed into, "I was a lesbian because I wanted to be a man." Sigh.
Throughout my life, I have tried on different labels hoping to find one that reflects the totality of who I am and is perceived in the way I wish it to be. Considering our community invents more and more labels to reflect its growing diversity, you would think I could find one that works, or at least one that I dont have to continuously explain or qualify.
Nowadays, I just prefer to say I am a female/woman who expresses my femaleness/womanness my way. Simple, yes? Nah.
Regardless of what I say or feel, others still experience me and treat me from within their own frame of reference/experience which does not always match mine.
People stuff is really tricky shit. Society stuff is really tricky shit. A lot of the isms have become so institutionalized, and so internalized that it is sometimes different to distinguish between what might be an ism vs a preference, or an ism vs humor, or malicious intent vs naivete, or cultural differences vs ???.
Very, very, tricky stuff.
girl_dee
08-10-2012, 06:14 AM
This is true .... I have to wonder if that stretches into the realm of labels, for lack of a better term. I rarely ever hear gay men - the gay men in my experience and my circles (to add another qualifier lol) - talk about being male or female ID'd - save for the occasional butch or femme reference, nor do I hear a lot of my gay men friends speak in terms of cis- this or that, for them, it is straight up gay, straight, men, women.
But thb, I learned some of it on-line as well - because if we were irl, you could see my face, hear my tone and inflections and you would know that I was speaking for and about me, while not diminishing others; you would know that 99% of my sarcasm and humor is said and meant with zero malice because that's just how I am - a sarcastic smartass who means no harm.
On-line though, my sarcasm and humor can sometimes come across as asshole-ish behavior and I have had people in the past take posts like that and think I was trying to diminish others by speaking of my experiences; so have I learned to add a lot of :) and :winky: and sometimes, like above, just flat out say that I wasnt trying to marginalize others.
Bouncing into the online subject, While being online in Virtual Reality for a while (Second Life to be exact) and on these forums i found that many butches use the *he* pronouns online, then in real life they use *she* pronouns. (In real life i find this confusing). i chatted with a few of them when told me they are really more comfortable with *she* pronouns but felt that it was expected that if they were butch they were male ID'd. My Syr is the only one that i can remember that insisted on *she* and constantly correcting all of us that she is a she.
i don't feel one pronoun is better than another but i do feel that some people do, and there is some expectation that butch = male, that all butches should want to transition... even in our own community.
Glenn
08-10-2012, 09:29 AM
[QUOTE=Kobi;630097][COLOR="Navy"]
.
Having grown up in a very traditional Italian family, the message was very clear.....girls/females/women behavior, dress, think, aspire to, prefer, defer, etc certain things. I very much felt female but the traditions didnt fit who I was, how I behaved, how I thought, what I aspired to, or how I preferred to dress.
Kobi; A lot of traditional Italian families were also matriarchal led such as mine . Mine nurtured my strength as a butch, gave me independence, did'nt make me or my partner of thirty plus years do or think anything we did'nt want too. Please do not give this thread the wrong impression about what traditional Italian families are or are not concerning butches and others. Thank-You
Bouncing into the online subject, While being online in Virtual Reality for a while (Second Life to be exact) and on these forums i found that many butches use the *he* pronouns online, then in real life they use *she* pronouns. (In real life i find this confusing). i chatted with a few of them when told me they are really more comfortable with *she* pronouns but felt that it was expected that if they were butch they were male ID'd. My Syr is the only one that i can remember that insisted on *she* and constantly correcting all of us that she is a she.
i don't feel one pronoun is better than another but i do feel that some people do, and there is some expectation that butch = male, that all butches should want to transition... even in our own community.
I found this very interesting.
In real life, I cant think of anyone who used any pronoun but *she*. Then again, I dont remember there being another option either.
Online, things seem to be a little different.
Perhaps there is more exploration of identities, more experimentation to see if something else works better, more opportunity to be exposed to new and different ways of conceptualizing oneself, more variety to find the niche that defines the you you know yourself to be.
Perhaps there is some degree of peer pressure involved in our effort to fit in, be accepted, and attract the type of person we are looking to attract. We define, refine, sometimes even find ourselves in relation to others. So others have the potential to have a profound effect on us.
Perhaps, on some level, if you identify as masculine or are perceived as masculine, there is the recognition of the privilege that comes with it. It can be very seductive, very powerful, and very empowering.
Interesting to think about.
[QUOTE=Kobi;630097][COLOR="Navy"]
.
Having grown up in a very traditional Italian family, the message was very clear.....girls/females/women behavior, dress, think, aspire to, prefer, defer, etc certain things. I very much felt female but the traditions didnt fit who I was, how I behaved, how I thought, what I aspired to, or how I preferred to dress.
Kobi; A lot of traditional Italian families were also matriarchal led such as mine . Mine nurtured my strength as a butch, gave me independence, did'nt make me or my partner of thirty plus years do or think anything we did'nt want too. Please do not give this thread the wrong impression about what traditional Italian families are or are not concerning butches and others. Thank-You
Glenn, we had different experiences.
In the 1950's, my traditional Italian experience was very patriarchal, very male, very old fashioned male-female rigidly defined roles, expectations, and even laws. I had many exceptional female role models who did exceptional things under extraordinary circumstances but it saddened me to know they didnt see themselves as exceptional women. It saddened me that they didnt value the other females in their lives in the way I expected. It saddened me when my maternal great grandmother who owned a successful farm which was run by her and her 2 unmarried daughters, left those daughters destitute and homeless when she died because she left the farm to her sons.
I am speaking to my experience. Perhaps you might wish to revisit my earlier post which read:
"This made me start thinking.....did you ever notice how we, as women, have been socialized to put qualifiers in the things we say?
We should be able to just speak what we experience or feel and it should stand on its own as a reflection of our experience.
Yet, we are taught to be mindful of how something we say or feel might impact on others and to acknowledge it and address it in some way."
You are welcome and encouraged to speak from your experience. I would love to hear how a strong matriarchal led family shaped the person you are.
Thank you :)
Parker
08-10-2012, 01:32 PM
Perhaps, on some level, if you identify as masculine or are perceived as masculine, there is the recognition of the privilege that comes with it. It can be very seductive, very powerful, and very empowering.
I feel like you are mixing up "masculine" and "male" here, but I dont want to assume - are they synonyms for you?
I am masculine - I just also happen to be a woman at the same time and I, personally, dont believe the two are mutually exclusive.
Bouncing into the online subject, While being online in Virtual Reality for a while (Second Life to be exact) and on these forums i found that many butches use the *he* pronouns online, then in real life they use *she* pronouns. (In real life i find this confusing). i chatted with a few of them when told me they are really more comfortable with *she* pronouns but felt that it was expected that if they were butch they were male ID'd. My Syr is the only one that i can remember that insisted on *she* and constantly correcting all of us that she is a she.
i don't feel one pronoun is better than another but i do feel that some people do, and there is some expectation that butch = male, that all butches should want to transition... even in our own community.
I have seen this as well - I have been told the same thing, re: expectations of being male id; and I have also been told that that is how some people tell the difference between a femme and a butch - the former is she and the latter is he.
I feel like that's bullshit, but what can you do - each person has to do right by and for themselves, not by and for me! :winky:
Personally, I've never been he/hy - on-line or irl.
BullDog
08-10-2012, 01:42 PM
The idea that you call femmes she and butches he so you can tell them apart is such bullshit. What do you do when you have two friends named Terry, call one by a different name? No. It seems like a lot of anxiety- like heaven forbid a butch might be talking in chat and someone makes the fatal mistake of thinking it was a femme typing. Oh my. Talk about the worst crime in the world.
BullDog
08-10-2012, 02:21 PM
On the positive side of things, despite all the online b.s. and some out in the real world too, being a butch woman who does embrace masculinity is very freeing and allows me to fully be myself. I do not in any way feel that masculinity is owned by men. I also see men embracing feminine aspects so women don't own femininity either. I am not bound to follow any rules or be a man or male to be the butch and masculine person that I am. I have my own role models and do not live to anyone's expectations other than my own. I do not fit in with the stereotype of woman, but I am just as much a woman- just a different type. Embracing masculinity is very natural to me and seeing myself as a woman makes me feel connected to women who have gone before me throughout history as well as now. I experience life as a woman. To disassociate from that reality for me personally would be a disservice to myself. So I am happy being me.
Originally Posted by Kobi
Perhaps, on some level, if you identify as masculine or are perceived as masculine, there is the recognition of the privilege that comes with it. It can be very seductive, very powerful, and very empowering.
I feel like you are mixing up "masculine" and "male" here, but I dont want to assume - are they synonyms for you?
I am masculine - I just also happen to be a woman at the same time and I, personally, dont believe the two are mutually exclusive.
I was using masculine in a non-gender specific way.
Nadeest
08-12-2012, 08:40 AM
I have tended to use' hy' here, for butches, as it seems to be the way that it works. I am perfectly comfortable using 'she', though. For me, it is whatever the person prefers. For some, the pronouns 'ze' and 'hir' work better, and I am fine with that, as well.
*Anya*
08-12-2012, 09:14 AM
I tend to never use pronouns online as unless someone specifies what they prefer, as I am always afraid I will call them the wrong pronoun and they will get either pissed or feel hurt.
Coming from the old-school lesbian world, where butches still called themselves "her" and "she", it has been an education and at times, has felt like a minefield; to come online and find that over the last 10-years or so, that things had changed.
I had never heard, in the offline world, any of the new prounouns. I still really do not but the online world frequently is different than the outside world.
I still have a hard time using them and in interpersonal interactions online, occasionally "slip" without meaning to.
Change is difficult.
Toughy
08-12-2012, 08:02 PM
I'm still twitching ...........however I really dislike when folks come in and stir the pot and then leave the thread for one excuse or another.........when the real reason is someone(s) challenged what they said and pointed out the 'isms' in what was said.
bio-dames.........laughin...........that's definitely a new one for me....
Nomad
08-20-2012, 07:33 AM
I'm still twitching ...........however I really dislike when folks come in and stir the pot and then leave the thread for one excuse or another.........when the real reason is someone(s) challenged what they said and pointed out the 'isms' in what was said.
bio-dames.........laughin...........that's definitely a new one for me....
oh G*d thank you for saying this!
my laughter was the derisive snort variety but that's just because i'm a schmuck.
:twitch: <----- think i'ma change my "how do you identify" answer to "bio-dame" face
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