I must of misread somewhere along the lines but I am pretty sure this all blew up cause someone said that the opinions were lesbianphobic. Till Organic's post which was moderated, no one had..

hmmm.

Before that, it was a discussion with a whole lot of opinions SOME people did not like them and foudn them to be lesbianphobic .

True story..

:eatinghersheybar:

as a lesbian, i get to call them my community. :)
i'm ok with that and stand by it.

I'm not sure how any for-profit business is part of any community other than the business community. Providing services for a fee and calling that service community makes no sense. My community doesn't make me pay lots of money to participate.

Could you clarify how that works?

Lets try this... I pay to get into lesbian Events sometimes upwards of $100. Now if that isn't "paying" for a service to a lesbian event then hmm I don't know what to call it. To me that doesn't make it right or wrong. If you like the services here or there and want to be able to do more things.. Don't you pay for that upgrade? I went to the Bash in Vegas.. I payed to be apart of their services/events. I went to the Reunion in Little Rock and yes I too paid for the Event. That cost me money to be apart of a COMMUNITY I love so very much. I would do it over and over again.

Thanks Toughy. I was thinking the same thing.

I spent a long time before I even posted in this thread trying to understand what was going on. I then spent a lot of time on my initial post trying to cover the issue and ask a few genuine questions.

Then when Snow pointed out there was a lot of upset that I wasn't up to speed on I went over to the other channel to try and figure things out. It took me at least a half an hour to even find the thread and another half hour to read the thread in its entirety. I saw the legitimate concerns raised over there. I also saw Transmen over there- who also are members of this community- saying they fully support lesbians having cruises but if there is going to be a butch femme event they do feel they have a right to be welcome. I completely agreed. I also saw those raising concerns being called liars and their integrity questioned.

Anyway, I spent a lot of time reading up to understand the issues and have asked genuine questions and tried to understand. I haven't called anyone any names, hurled any insults or accused anyone of anything. I have gotten a lot of nasty insults and been told I am engaging in us vs them when there isn't a shred of evidence of that in any of my posts.

Wow, I'm so glad I have spent so much of my time trying to understand only to be insulted, accused and made fun of.

:deadhorse: just saying ...

BullDog - You may not see that you've said anything that anyone could take negatively, and I may have even almost agreed with that on some level, until the little snarky line at the end of your post.

You made a comment implying that non-lesbians shouldn't be discussing the issue. You made a comment about how the thread was off topic and we were talking about things we shouldn't be discussing (which is something you do in a lot of the threads you post in). You made comments about how you were insulted and called names and implied that you had somehow become a victim in this.

I've seen you do, and say, most of these things in other threads that became heated at some point. It's obvious that you have a different interpretation of things than many of us here. But rather than agree to disagree and continue the discussion, these thread turn into Bully vs. almost everyone else and end up nothing more than a bunch of passive aggressive snark being tossed back and forth until everyone loses interest and just goes away.

I'm really tired of watching good threads die.

You are seriously accusing me of snark?

I never said non lesbians shouldn't be discussing the issue. People were telling me- whose been a lesbian for over 30 years- that I wouldn't be welcome on a lesbian cruise. I find that preposterous based on my experience and then non lesbians get nasty and mock me. That is what I was referring to when I said non lesbians seem to now think they are the experts.

The only thing I said was off topic was when people were hurling nasty comments at me- that adds nothing to a conversation.

Passive aggressive snark? Really? Not that you would do anything like that- like keep referring to me in the Zombie thread.

I am not a victim. I am being treated like shit for no good reason. I've put in the time to try and understand. That is apparent to some people. I have better things to do with my time than continue to be insulted.

Let me try this again. Olivia is a business with a business model that targets part of the greater LGBTQQI community. That does not make Olivia a community. The people who utilize Olivia's services may certainly be a community. A business is not a community.....like-minded individuals may and can create a community.

A business can and will close for lack of money. Communities exist without the presence of money.

I understand what strappie is saying and I understand what Toughy is ..And we can keep repeating the same thing over and over ...But some folks view things different then others ..What difference does it make if they want to call it community or not that is their individual view which happens to be different from yours ...I don't like to come in these threads for this very thing that is going on ..My words where changed around to suit the person reading My posts , now I am yet put into ANOTHER group non-lesbian WTF is next ..If I embarrass you PLEASE put Me on ignore I really don't care ..My point of view is JUST as important as yours ...

My whole point on this thread was to say that Olivia cruises HAS a issue with folks that are very masculine LOOKING ...very simple Had NOTHING to do with being a follower , had NOTHING to
do with how long one has been a Lesbian , HAD nothing to do with OTHER Lesbian events...YES some butches have been on one of these cruises , but something has changed over the years in their policy and it seems to offend some Lesbians who take their cruises ...I will say this again I am all for having Lesbian ONLY events , I understand that , have NO problem with it ...This site is not JUST for Lesbians , if it was I would not be here ..

you need to stop making me cry Toughy. :(

I understand what a business is, I worked in corporate America for many many years. I understand what you're saying. What I am saying is this: The people that are the faces of Queer/Lesbian businesses ARE my community - my sisters and brothers in the world.

When I frequent Hispanic owned businesses, and a Hispanic gives me flack for my light skin - I am hurt by my own.

So as a Lesbian, being treated like shit under the guise of "it's a business" doesn't fly for me. What I am speaking to here is what happened to Blaze, who was a Lesbian turned away from a Lesbian business for.....what? Left standing on the docks mind you.

I also understand that many people have had great experiences on the Olivia cruiseline. Aboard a ship full of their community, no?

So I understand what you are saying, I do. I'm just coming from a different place.

Business and community get confused quite often. I think that's because some business' help facilitate community for many of us, so we tend to get it confused.
For instance. The dash site was/is a business. Many people dont agree with that, never did. But I think it became quite obvious in the last two years.
What I cant stand, is a business claiming to be "community" when clearly it is not. I see nothing wrong with being a business, but say so. Community does not behave like a business, and vice versa.

Olivia cruises are a business who facilitates community. They are being specific to which community they cater to.

I think where they are going wrong is trying to dictate who and who is not a lesbian. If they want to cater to a certain demographic they need to be more specific because the term lesbian does not just apply to feminine looking women who eat pussy.

The conception of this thread started out peaceful, mind you we all threw it off course but the conversation was flowing pretty smoothly till these posts that have * on them.

****

Some people replied some did not but the convo kept going then again another post suggesting that a whole other convo was happening

**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyclopea (Post 186884) Mountain Star I will not be able to go on the Lesbian cruise this October for various reasons unfortunately. I would love to go in future. As a lesbian I enjoy lesbian events and gatherings. Since this thread is about a lesbian gathering perhaps it could be moved to the "Lesbian Zone" so wimmin can discuss the cruise without wading through pages of lesbophobia.

**

Some folks replied some did not but the convo kept going smoothly and yet AGAIN :

***

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyclopea (Post 186913) I certainly did not intend to participate in an incendiary manner "rally the troops" or shit-stir. I'm not entirely sure what you mean. I suggested that posting about a lesbian event in the lesbian zone might decrease the dozens of "oh hell no I'm not going- I'm not a lesbian" posts, which yes, feel phobic to me. I will PM you on the matter and hopefully make myself clearer. I'm not sure why my suggestion warrants such seemingly harsh moderation but I would like to understand so I can avoid being singled out in such a manner in future. Thank you for your patience.

**

Then we had more convo with some replies to this, a lil administration then I opened my mouth and asked this

**

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow (Post 186918) I would like to clarify that nowhere in my post did I come off with an intent to be anti lesbian. Matter of fact lesbian was not even in my post. So since you are making sweeping generalizations, I would like to say that I would not attend Olivia Cruises NOT because they cater to lesbians, but because I could not comfortably go with the person I am with, reason being.. They are not trans friendly.

**

More conversation happened then another member posted the proof that Olivia had said this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by nycfembbw (Post 187055) From: "Olivia GuestServices" <GUESTSERVICES@OLIVIA.COM> Add sender to Contacts Hello - Olivia strives to provide an all Lesbian environment but we have had MTF transgendered guests join us on our vacations. Although we do not discriminate, you will find that your presence is upsetting to some of our guests. Some will confront you directly asking "why are you on my Lesbian vacation?" I imagine it would be even harder for our guests to accept someone FTM. I know this is discouraging, but it is important for you to understand because it disrupts the Olivia experience we work hard to provide for our guests. If you have any questions or need anything more please feel free to e-mail me at guestservices@olivia.com or call 800-631-6277, option 2. Thank you, - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Jeri Umble sr. director, customer care olivia 434 brannan street san francisco ca 94107 415.962.5700 tel 415.962-5713 fax feel free www.olivia.com

Then all that convo led to these views:

****

Which then turned into everyone was picking friends cause of who went where:

****


So *I* just had to ask wtf and I did

**

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow (Post 187324) This is kinda ridiculous, to assume that people are posting their opinions so that all their friends follow like sheeple and not go on a vacation if that is what they wanted to do. If (insert name) decided tomorrow that she was going on and Olivia Cruise, I would be like :| I would more than likely talk to her about it, and our friendship would change since she is supporting a place I do not for it's policies. I don't know to what degree it would change but I am pretty positive that I would not just kick her to the curb without having some kind of dialogue. Once again I find it odd that you are reading some subliminal message that is saying if pick a side or you are out the club. Really odd. :| PS Can someone PLEASE point out the phobia, inclusion/exclusion ism's comments?????? PLEASE

**


BTW the whole lesbian phobia was never pointed out, but then someone did make a not so nice comment and it got Moderated. So then Bully came in here not sure what was going on I EXPLAINED TWICE why the fall out.

Some people were hurt and still are because well I get some folks have been lesbians for a lot longer than some of us, now this is just me coming from *MY* space

when we say something like this

"I'm a lesbian and am qualified to say what my sense is regarding where I would or would not be welcome."

Really? How dismissing cause how does anyone know what the other posters identity was before they transitioned, does their history get erased and dismissed just because they no longer refer or feel this way or comfortable in that mattress tag?


The kick in the gut

"I love how non lesbians are some how the authority. "

Well I am a non lesbian, this is insulting and once again dismissing and therefore the blow out.

The person who posted this is right.

I am non lesbian, I identified with dyke when I was younger, for reasons that you don't really want to hear because if I do decide to share my experience I am 99.9% sure some people will view it as anti lesbian or lesbian phobic.

That's how the convo turned to shit, it was all fun and fluff in the beginning till people who were called liars, and be littled came in to vent cause of their hurt.

Even one member posted their experience with Olivia which was downright ugly.

But nooooooooooooo even then it looked like Blaze was getting lectured for not calling the BBB, and not checking the fine print, did not matter he was a lesbian at the young age of 22 and that when we are that age we are not as savvy as we are now in our more mature age, even then with Blaze sharing the story, it was like eh it was 8 year ago and well we really don't have the full story, cause well his words were not good enough?

Facts are Mountain Star wanted to see if anyone was going on the cruise, we ALL turned into a thread about how we feel about Olivia due to other things that happened elsewhere, from there well you can basically watch the dominoes fall.

*I* still feel each time trans folk or trans issues are discussed, it somehow turns into.... Everyone is dogging out the lesbians, so not true and frankly I for one am sick of those assumptions so like someone said

I don't know what planet ya'll are living on but I live on one where I don't diss or dismiss any gay, queer, trans, lesbian or anyone that falls in the gender spectrum. PERIOD.

I entirely and completely agree with the above statement.

Me making my own decisions as a lesbian about where I will feel welcome has SHIT to do with someone else's history. I as a lesbian may feel welcomed in a place another lesbian would not. That has no reflection on another lesbians comfort level.

As to the non-lesbian comment ..........snark/sarcasm ......... something we all do on occasion...it made me snort in that kind of ironic way as ALL snark/sarcasm usually does. The snark is not some special mean I hate you shut the fuck up kind of statement, although apparently it can be taken that way.

I gotta tell ya here. I am/was feeling a bit of lesbophobia starting to happen here in this thread. Not something you can specifically quote, but none-the-less it was hovering in the background. As a lesbian I should be able to say that without having to produce a quote. It's falls in the same category as 'this feels racist, sexist, homophobic', white privilege'.

We highly object when someone who has left all of us with a feeling of racism, however there is no direct quote to produce to prove that. We will call out that racism in a heartbeat, to the bewilderment of the poster. Likely we will never be able to specifically show that poster where the racism exists in what was said.

And sometimes we are wrong (on both sides). And sometimes we are right (on both sides).

I hope anyone who decides to put themselves on a boat with 2000-3000 has a great time. The likelihood of me doing that is about zero. I am not getting trapped on a boat for a week with a bunch of strangers or friends. Besides after Jack's little post about poo and pee and other stuff spewed out of the boats in the open sea...........shaking my head...........

I don't agree with everything regarding Olivia Cruises and how some people have been treated. However I also think some people have expanded it being a lesbian cruise ship (which wouldn't include males) to saying omg if you are butch or masculine appearing they are going to be horrible to you on their boat if they even let you on and they only want femme looking woman there- which I think is quite the exaggeration. And yes I do wonder what is behind these exaggerated statements.

I'm a lesbian, go to lesbian events all the time and have so for years and years, but people who are not lesbians are telling me what would happen (based purely on conjecture) and I am the one being dismissive?

Perhaps it is my piscean nature, a dreamer of that considered utopian space. Yet, without the capacity to see a better world, for all of us, without the vision, we are doomed to sameness. Nothing changes. And, I believe that we each have a responsibility to make or contribute in some way, a better, more just world.

I think of the business owners in the old South who refused service to black people. I heard the same arguments, even after the laws passed to end it. People have a right to have whatever folks they chose in their restaurant, they said. But if we think about this critically, it is NOT about the business. The most compounded effect is upon the person/s refused. It is the suddenly found shame, the loss of dignity, the shearing of a person's or groups self worth. This is not simply a disembodied "thing", a checkbook, or barstool that we are speaking about. We are talking about real people who have feelings and who are part of our community. The Othered community. The community of the marginalized."They" are us. And however we identify, however we situated ourselves in society, IMHO, I believe that we have a responsibility, an ethical one, to care for one another in the manner of SOLIDARIDAD, and from my travels, from my witness, from my convos with my Spanish speaking brothers and sisters, this is more than lip service. It is greater than a word. It means not to simple stand with someone, but to engage from the places of the heart and the spirit.

Like I said, I'm a Pisces and can be accused of engaging in excess fantasy. Then again, there is always hope in a dream. Always a possibility. What do I know?

I am a Leo and I share a similar fantasy.

I'm a lesbian and I would have some worry that you would end up treated in the same manner that Blaze was (who was a lesbian at the time this happened). I wouldn't wish that on anybody.

I didn't once get the impression that Olivia Cruises only wants Femmes on their cruises. I did however, get the feeling that they might balk at the ratio of passengers who were butch or masculine looking being the majority.

I think it would be fair to call it conjecture had we not had a member here who lived this experience. Blaze sharing the story took it out of the realm of conjecture into the realm of fact.

Do I think this is going to happen all of the time? No.

Yet the possibility of you - my fellow community member being left standing on the docks gives me great pause.

I would be horrified.

The overuse of the binary makes me cringe. The binary is being challenged in ways that it wasn't when Olivia began doing cruises. I just wish they'd catch up rather than stay mired in the either/or.

Where is the line of delineation? If an mtf has had srs, they ARE a woman and a lesbian if they say so. (I know you disagreed with the turning away of an MTF) so hopefully you'll see my point. Where is the line of delineation when somebody feels that they were born into the wrong body? Does it start the separation at that point? Or when someone takes T? OR when somebody has top surgery? Bottom surgery for FTM's is lacking still in a successful outcome, as opposed to the MTF srs surgeries which fully change ones sex/gender.

So where does the cut-off begin?

I'm not at all against Olivia having woman only space. I am however uncomfortable with the idea that Olivia decides who is woman enough to be in that space.

The fact that I am a Lesbian and married to a trans person puts me in a strange position. It feels like my Lesbian is stripped away often because of who I love. Which is ridiculous. My partners ID has nothing to do with mine, yet as a Lesbian I cannot really participate in a cruise with my peers AND bring along the one I love. That feels shitty.

I am all for Olivia and would never ever judge anyone who went on a vacation with them. Ever. I know they have a right to their policies, however, I find them to be not quite a solid interpretation of said policies.

Who am I to judge? Nobody I guess, just another faceless person.

So in ending, I'd really like to say to you that I feel that the people who are worried you might maybe or maybe not get left at the docks are simply members of your community who stand in solidarity with you (regardless of id) and would just not want you to be treated so horribly. I don't think its a bad thing that people care, yanno? I care. I of course would send all my energy to you having a fabulous outcome, nobody wishes bad treatment on anyone. I would however, stand by your side and fight the good fight with you should you be treated in the manner that Blaze was.