Diva:

Please see my post above regarding your last sentence. You can have the reaction that this man should be sent to, say, Egypt where there ARE no laws against torture and that he should be given a full and complete tour through the meaning of 'medieval torture methods' before being allowed to die and never ONCE have a single conscious thought about a 'big, scary black man'. I don't think you, Sachita, or anyone else involved in this discussion is consciously thinking "big scary black man" or "teach blacks a lesson about cruelty" but I DO think that it is reflexive for members of the American ethnic majority to view blacks and Latinos as more dangerous.

Now, since you mention the dogs, I'll say something else. Had it turned out that one of the dogs had turned on Mr. Vick and taken a bite out of his neck severing his jugular and causing his death, I would shrug my shoulders and say that he got what he deserved. If he were only maimed or disfigured, I'd still shrug and say that he got what he deserved.

But that's not what we are talking about. What we're talking about is what *society* should do with or about Mr. Vick and that is what my concern is--that and what our motivations are for wanting to do or not do something to, with or about him.

Cheers
Aj

Ok I'm guilty of this when it comes to certain things. I also had a light go off inside. We all have something we're passionate about and things that are very personal. As much as I try to leave emotion out of reaction I admit I fall short.

These issues are in my face on a regular basis because of my involvement with dogs/animals and rescue groups. I can't watch an ASPCA commercial without breaking down and crying. I am on craigslist several hours a week trying to match dogs with people seeking dogs, with some success but with that i also see a lot of shit that saddens me. After a while you become enraged and a rebel for the fight against animal cruelty. My stance on Vick is the degree of cruelty and the amount of animals. Even one would have been awful but it was so large and so much suffering. I don't care if he's famous, black, green- etc.

thanks again

My 2 cent
 

Here is a link to a man who Killed his two dogs to go on vacation. I had not heard about this until someone pointed it out to me yesterday.
http://www.care2.com/news/member/100041282/1178124

I have a pit/mix who has been attack 3 times by little dogs running up and trying to bite her. So I agree with many here. 1. dogs will act like dogs trained or not. 2. owners must understand the breed. 3. Racism is involved in everything, right or wrong. 4. using not relative situations to make a universal statement always backfires, nothing is universal. 5. If you go to the store and buy food including vegetables you participate in system of food. (truck delivery,water)

Yes, even if you are a vegan, you participate less and I support your choice, but we live in a first world country with a different value system that exploits other countries for our food systems as well as our own.
Anyway, my point is this, Animal abuse/Dog fighting is wrong.
He did his time, for me he lost the right to own a dog. He has a right to make a living. Racism is at play in the redemption narrative, who gets it who does not.
I for one do not know what is in another's heart or mind, or what pain looks like or how anyone but myself looks like. This media age gives a false sense of what is real or felt, I have misread many e-mails,post,pictures through my own lens and narrative and have been way wrong.
If we want to talk about football start a football thread.
and Last and probable the most controversial thing I am going to say is this, as a white american it becomes more and more important for me to unlearn the first world white privilege narrative ( colonialism), by this I mean fitting everything into how I have been trained to hear,read,and think. For me, animal abuse is wrong simple, but I do not grow or raise my food so I by my complicity abuse animals. I own leather, drive a truck, and buy plastic that ends up in the ocean or around a Sea-lions neck. Not long ago White folks had picnics at lynchings, I may have a relative that watched, just so you know the Irish were the most lynched prior to the civil war. There are those who believe BDSM is violent and abusive, I lived through the 80's. The War machine. Again, We all are complicate and participated in some form that is contributing to violence against both people and animals,
So the glass house and rock story seems to need review.
:praying:

So what level of pain would be enough? If he were turned over to the mercies of the mukhabarat in Egypt (the Egyptian secret police) and given, as I said before, a full and complete tour through the meaning of 'getting medieval on you' would that be enough? If it were mixed up a bit and he was given the very BEST in medieval torture married with the very BEST of Western medical intervention so that he would stay alive and--more to the point--conscious through every single excruciating moment and if this were allowed to continue for, say, a year. Would THAT be enough?

I keep hearing "I can't forgive him" or "it wasn't enough" well that means that somewhere there must be some line at which you would have to say "okay, enough". I'm curious what that line is.

In a less extreme vein, if he spent the rest of his days in prison would that be enough or would he need to spend the rest of his days in solitary? Or would you just prefer he were taken out and shot without delay?

You must have SOME punishment in mind, what is it?

Cheers
Aj

Okay, I'll ask you the SAME question that I've asked others: what level of punishment would be enough? Please let us know.

Cheers
Aj

A friend just sent me this on face book after I hit sent on here.
http://www.thenation.com/blog/157372...-animal-rights

Someone asked me why this had to turn into a black and white issue. MOST people that are not a "person of color" (I have to say that term makes me twitch but that's just me) would not understand what Vicks race has to do to people's reaction to this whole thing. I can understand that you see the world in a different way. Your color has never been an issue. Although I think the race card is pretty much maxed out some people do still feel like we are sub-human and they do react in that way. I can tell the difference, some people can't. I always question it due to my walk in life and my "color" being an issue all of my life. I make color jokes all the time just to make people uncomfortable on purpose because I'm evil like that. But when it comes down to it first and foremost I'm human. Second I'm a brown color due to the environment that my ancestors come from. Until we ALL realize that color is just a social construct that keeps us apart and fighting with each other and we tried to understand where another person is coming from there is always going to be that "color" issue. Try not to get offended if someone of "color" see's a black and white issue when you do not. Maybe try to understand why they feel that way.

A few years back, I might have said very similar things to what Sachita has posted here. Honestly I had a lot more sympathy for animals than I did for a single human being. I had this idea that animals were defenseless and that humans were brutal toward them and unless there were people willing to stand up for animal rights, then there was no hope against senseless human-caused misery, death and extinction among animals. I still feel a bit of that in my innermost core, though my feelings have changed to accept that nature is brutal and people are part of nature.

At some point, I stopped crossing humans off the list when it came to "beings that matter" in my own heart and mind. I think it happened around the time I decided that I mattered - maybe about 8 years ago. I think it was the week when I realized that my vegetarian diet had left me so weak that I could no longer pick up cinder blocks and both my knees were always in pain. Or maybe it was the week after, when I ate meat again for the first time in a year and a half (?).

During my vegetarian years, I went to a lecture by Carol J Adams called "The Sexual Politics of Meat" which really emphasized how women and animals are equated in our culture. She gave lots of examples which can still be found on her website. I do believe she touched once or twice on the intersection of race, women and animals within advertising, but she didn't go into great depth.

Anyway, not sure where I'm going with this, so I am going to make a jump into my present. I understand now that "not seeing race" in an issue where many others do is most likely an act of willful ignorance on my part. I am allowed to participate in this type of ignorance because it is supported by the majority (white) culture. To acknowledge the race issues here would be to "commit a crime against the collective." To acknowledge that most of our hands are bloody when it comes to animal cruelty is another one of those crimes. When I say, "Crime against the collective," I mean in this sense:

"Any step in individuation is experienced as a crime against the collective because it challenges the individual's identification with some representative of the collective - whether it be a family, party, church or nation. At the same time, each step - since it is truly an inflated act - is not only accompanied by guilt but also runs the very real risk that one will get caught in an inflation that carries the consequences of a fall."

- Edward F Edinger

I heard this quote in the Jungian podcast yesterday during a discussion of what happened in Nazi Germany among the relatively well-educated German citizens that ended up supporting the Nazi movement. It's very dangerous to take advantage of the ignorance afforded us by our individual sets of privilege, because it allows us to be mindless and therefore oppressive toward others. It's hard to break the spoken or unspoken rules of the collective, but I think it's worth it.

more thoughts
 

A friend just sent me this on face book after I hit sent on here.
http://www.thenation.com/blog/157372...-animal-rights

I find my brain can not always express clearly what I am trying to convey. to be clear I was trying to express some of what the Professor here is speaking to and trying not to derail the conversation. I mostly likely failed in my articulation, but I agree that doing it wrong or badly teaches me more than when I do it right. :praying:

I would need to think about that otherwise my response may seem insane or it could excite a few here. lol- I'm kidding, sort of. I think it may involve torture which I know is insane and illegal but again it's emotional & stimulates the vigilante sadist in me.

Exploring my feelings about this I recalled an awful child abuse case in Missouri everyone has heard about Debra Luptak. It was considered the worse child abuse case in history. I know *this* isn't about that but if I use it as a comparison, and to me animal abuse is as bad a crime IMO, should her mother been allowed to serve time and then be let out and forgiven? This is the most extreme case and I view Vick's case to be extreme although not the worse.

I might not be making sense right now. I have some crazy ass dogs today. I might need to get back to this.

This is an excellent question for all of us.

I believe it is not my place to forgive Michael Vick. That is between him and his G-d or not.

I am anti-death penalty. It is wrong morally and I think has been proven not to be much a deterrant. Also it is not applied justly in our system.

I am personally against abortion but support 100% a woman's sovereignty over her own body.

I am curious Medusa what people's answers would mean? What is the correct answer to these questions for those who will not forgive him?

I wonder if that guy Tucker will call for his death.

An absolute POS indeed...and a perfect example of the inherent unfairness of our "justice" system. I also find it absolutely disturbing that there is no such thing as felony animal abuse in the state. So...no matter how disgusting, how massive, how horrible the abuse is...it's not a felony. That's outrageous...and a pretty horrific failure of the legislature.

Honestly, since there's no way to convict him of a felony...I'd love to see the Humane Society sue his ass off...so they can use those funds to help animals. Seems like his adoption of the animals probably included some kind of agreement to take responsible care of them...

Well June.

He's white, he gets a second chance.

Of course not...cuz...ummmmm....he's a firefighter. :|