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-   -   It's Time to Boycott Arizona (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1230)

The_Lady_Snow 04-29-2010 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jess (Post 94478)
What's really interesting to me, is that in the movies... any foreign country official always asks "ve vant to see your PaPers". Is it just here that we aren't supposed to ask?
Perhaps because so many European countries "touch" each other, they are more interested in seeing who is crossing their borders. Perhaps, because we are so, oh, I dunno, separate, we are just supposed to allow anyone in at any time.

If the bottom line is, have your papers in hand when they ask for them then go on your merry way, then what is really the problem?

Now.. I will say I am playing Devils Advocate with this, as it seems to be a simple solution and good as hell reason to sue for racial profiling. IF you have proper documentation and get pulled over because "you are brown".. SUE THE FUCK OUT OF THEM. If by chance, you don't, then damn, maybe you should have paid attention to all this shit. IF you are here and are going through the process, then you will have some proof of that. IF you are here ILLEGALLY and don't have proof you are going through the process, then hmmm.. go home and start over.It's really that simple.

Fully expecting bullshit to fall out of this post. Because it is way too simple. Way too easy to see it for what it is. I say, beat them at their game. It's easy. Have your papers ready to shove ever so politely in their face, whichever state of citizenship you fall into.


So let's say we all go with your idea... Here we are all the browns carrying documentation around so we can *prove* we belong here as much as say.

You do..

Allow me to play devils advocate..

We are both from let's say....


Spain..

I happen to be darker, you happen to have light hair light eyes..

We both don't have our papers.... NONE...

*I* get pulled over, pulled out the car asked for my documentation, you don't get asked nothing cause well you just don't look it... Don't look like the type...

I get detained you sent on your merry way... So while I am detained I get the *special* treatment, kinda like my Ma did..

TADA come to find out, we are from Spain but have been residing here since 72 legally but this one time I forgot to bring the bulks of paperwork with me, and since I did not have THAT on me, now I have to tuck my horrific experience aside and worry about fucking suing?

FUCK THAT!

*You* have no idea what it is like to be pulled over by a cop who is having a bad day Jess.. Why? I am going to assume you are not of color, here is why I am assuming, cause you suggested we just sit back and take it and sue if we don't have documentation..

Really?? I belong here just as much as you do, I should have to be able drive a car without fear, walk the street without being hunted, cause frankly this is what this is, a witch hunt of sorts..

So no your *I am playing devil's advocate* falls a lil on the short side of justice.

Why?

Cause sometimes, some trigger happy joe do gooder thinks he is *Super Avenger* and may decide the day he spots an *illegal* that that *illegal* and his billy club have a date.. Yeah no thanks.... Suing ain't gonna bring Jose Luis Chacon back if he is mortally injured, no amount of fucking money is gonna bring that family their boy back, or brother, or husband.. If you are naive and think that won't happen, lemme tell you I laugh cause it happens now... *I* know...

Apocalipstic 04-29-2010 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemme (Post 94448)

Any time someone who is not a politician or person of influence says that, they bring the men with the white jackets. :blink:

I think about this so much. How thin the line is...if there is one at all...between being a religious zealot and being incredibly mentally ill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow (Post 94461)

OMG. People are crazy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jess (Post 94478)
What's really interesting to me, is that in the movies... any foreign country official always asks "ve vant to see your PaPers". Is it just here that we aren't supposed to ask?
Perhaps because so many European countries "touch" each other, they are more interested in seeing who is crossing their borders. Perhaps, because we are so, oh, I dunno, separate, we are just supposed to allow anyone in at any time.

If the bottom line is, have your papers in hand when they ask for them then go on your merry way, then what is really the problem?

Now.. I will say I am playing Devils Advocate with this, as it seems to be a simple solution and good as hell reason to sue for racial profiling. IF you have proper documentation and get pulled over because "you are brown".. SUE THE FUCK OUT OF THEM. If by chance, you don't, then damn, maybe you should have paid attention to all this shit. IF you are here and are going through the process, then you will have some proof of that. IF you are here ILLEGALLY and don't have proof you are going through the process, then hmmm.. go home and start over.It's really that simple.

Fully expecting bullshit to fall out of this post. Because it is way too simple. Way too easy to see it for what it is. I say, beat them at their game. It's easy. Have your papers ready to shove ever so politely in their face, whichever state of citizenship you fall into.

I get what you are saying, but those movies were about Nazi Germany, the DDR and the USSR. Fascist countries. I don't want us to be that.

For me, I want the United States of America to welcome immigrants however they get here. No one would leave their home to risk death to get here if they did not really want and need a new life. The only people who have the right to complain in my book are the actual Native Americans.

When I was a kid in Argentina, I was a total space cadet and forgot my papers a lot. My parents were a wreck. It was a huge deal. Kids are often the ones targeted. What if Christie's son were in that situation and forgot his papers and got carted off to some camp and you could not find him. Can you imagine? This is what happens to people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jess (Post 94495)
I used the "in the movies" statement to stress a point. Most other countries do ask for some sort of ID. Most folks who travel to the UK for example, go through customs. They show their ID/ reason for being there and move on. Folks aren't crawling in through tunnels. Does that make any sense at all?

To get to the UK by tunnel you would need truly heavy equipment :)

Yes, there is immigration, but you don't get asked for papers on the street. Different issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jess (Post 94511)
I see your point. I will also add that not every single illegal immigrant is here to send money back to their poor family. My entire argument is for those who aren't.

Anyone who approaches the US Embassy with a valid case to be a refugee is granted immunity. It's just what we do.

I think we ( in general) wish to think the best of anyone coming here for a "new beginning/ second chance". It is not always the case. Read: 9/11

Some of those guys somehow got valid pilots licenses. How does that shit happen? How do we document folks we slide through?

Not being in a border state struggling with such intimate issues, it is hard for me to be very compassionate. I try, but I also try to be compassionate for the folks who died at the hands of terrorists who were able to take charge of our planes. Ya know? It's a very precarious place to be in judging which is more humane. Asking for papers.. or assuming the good.


I have a friend who was here in the US as a refugee from Brazil for being persecuted for being Gay.

Fred Phelps and his gang went to count so that people who were here in the US under the same refugee status as this young artist would all be deported. He is in hiding now, I have no idea how to see him. I can only imagine how scared he is.

The US is actually very picky about who they give asylum to.

The people who bombed the towers came here legally and stayed longer, they did not come over a border illegally.

If this is about keeping us safe, why are we only worried about immigrants with darker skin? Why not Canadians, the Irish.....

Think about how bad things would have to be for you to leave your home, and walk with your family with only the things you can carry for thousands of miles, across international borders, mountains, deserts and rivers to get somewhere you can be safe and be a part of the great "American" dream and you find out the US is changing into a Fascist Police State...and that there will never be that dream for you. There will never be a fresh new start. Why? Because your skin is darker.

Will you really think about it? I am so not bashing you or arguing for the sake or argument. You seem compassionate about so many things, can you really say you feel none here? :)

theoddz 04-29-2010 08:56 AM

This may be a dumb question, but if there's anyone here with legal background....

Could asking someone to produce "papers", PERIOD, in this country, be considered unconstitutional by way of being an "illegal search"?? :|

It just doesn't sound like it should be legally permitted, Constitutionally speaking.

~Theo~ :bouquet:

Apocalipstic 04-29-2010 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theoddz (Post 94969)
This may be a dumb question, but if there's anyone here with legal background....

Could asking someone to produce "papers", PERIOD, in this country, be considered unconstitutional by way of being an "illegal search"?? :|

It just doesn't sound like it should be legally permitted, Constitutionally speaking.

~Theo~ :bouquet:


I heard on NPR last night that even Karl Rove and Jeb Bush thinks it is unconstitutional, the ACLU is bringing suit as well as many others.

theoddz 04-29-2010 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apocalipstic (Post 94971)
I heard on NPR last night that even Karl Rove and Jeb Bush thinks it is unconstitutional, the ACLU is bringing suit as well as many others.


Well, that's good and heartening to hear. I have my fingers crossed that this ridiculous law will be quickly overturned. :winky:

It just didn't sound right to me and seriously smacks of being unconstitutional.

It's....well.....Un American and seems to go against the very principles that this country was founded on.

~Theo~ :bouquet:

Medusa 04-29-2010 10:05 AM

June brings up an interesting parallel.

I did some research on my heritage just out of curiosity over the last few years. After finding several branches of different heritages for my family (that included Ouchita and Blackhawk First Nations, as well as Irish and Scottish descent, and even several African American ancestors), I decided to start researching each branch in order to get a clearer picture of who I am made of.

When I went into depth researching my Irish heritage, I came across an account of a woman who would have been some degree of cousin to me who came over here from Ireland during the famine in 1846 (or thereabouts). People were starving to death, there was no work, and according to what I read, this distant relative of mine was *alone* when she made the journey. She *also* apparently gave birth within a month of arriving here in America, which meant that she was HUGELY pregnant when she was crammed in steerage, rocking on a dirty, disease-ridden boat.

The accounts of what I found are pretty shady for a few years after she arrived but I did find that she somehow made her way to the Virginia area and worked as some type of servant.

There are a LOT of historical writings that talk about the foul treatment of "The Irish" (and many other cultures) who arrived here in America around that time. How they were shaved because of headlice, how they were exploited for cheap labor, how the women were often raped or ended up working as prostitutes to support themselves.

And honestly? "My People" haven't been here that long. Since 1846? Thats about 150 years...NOT a long time. A few generations at most.

I could be considered a white "anchor baby" if this country were full of brown folks in power who were using their privilege and racism to try to keep hold of their power like I see a lot of white people and "The System" doing.

I think that I would personally like to see the Tea Partiers, Republicans, White folks, or anyone else who screams "this is my country" the loudest do a little research on exactly where they came from. Because last I checked? This "country" was inhabited by Indigenous Peoples who were brown before a bunch of white folks started coming over here claiming they "discovered" a continent that had been inhabited by brown folks for thousands of years.

I would like to see all of us remember that this country was built on the premise of immigration and "a better life" for anyone who wanted it. Sure, the immigration system is broken in 100 different ways but a great many of us are only three, maybe even two or one, generation away from "Illegal Immigrant" ourselves.

MsDemeanor 04-29-2010 10:15 AM

Just an FYI....there seems to be a misguided boycott drive against AriZona Tea. That company was started by a couple of guys from Brooklyn, and it's always been in NYC.

AriZona Teal has zero zip zilch to do with the state of Aizona, it just has an unfortunate name.

UofMfan 04-29-2010 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theoddz (Post 94969)
This may be a dumb question, but if there's anyone here with legal background....

Could asking someone to produce "papers", PERIOD, in this country, be considered unconstitutional by way of being an "illegal search"?? :|

It just doesn't sound like it should be legally permitted, Constitutionally speaking.

~Theo~ :bouquet:

Here is some more info on that:

http://www.nilc.org/pubs/news-releases/nr010.htm

Apocalipstic 04-29-2010 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by June (Post 94993)
I have never driven across the borders, I have always flown or taken trains, it seems to me when we flew, we showed our passports, just as we do in the states, but I don't recall having to do that when we bought tickets to go from Koln to Amsterdam, Paris to Koln.

Perhaps if we had been riding in a van, things would have been different. ;)

When we traveled to Mexico last year, there was a checkpoint to get into the neighborhood enclave on the beach we were staying at, and then when we crossed the Penninsula to go see some ruins. In all cases, the guards had Machine guns. It was an odd feeling to be somewhere that it was business as usual.

I will never go back to Mexico. Sure, it was beautiful, but when traveling from our rented house, we passed by so much poverty, shanty towns built out of whatever people could find. I have never witnessed anything like it here in the US. And I didn't feel like the money we spent down there was actually helping anyone that really needed it.

Is it our fault the Mexican (and other South American) governments are so corrupt and fucked up? No. But as a human being, I have no problem understanding why people want to come here to get away from it. Probably the same reasons some of my ancestors escaped from the crushing poverty of Ireland and Scotland via Steerage, which may have been the equivalent of a Van in the 1800's.

I wish we (the collective we) could put this into a human perspective. It's not like people from South America are doing this as a lark (coming to America), no one with other options would choose to ride in the back of an unventilated truck crammed in with dozens of others, or risk being shot or getting lost while crossing a desert unless they were truly desperate.

This mentality of "I got mine, you need to stay the hell away" makes me sick.


Alas, though you and I personally are not responsible for the poverty to the South of us, it is the fault of the US, both diplomatically and economically.

I don't have time to locate the sources to quote right now, but American Companies looted those countries and the US goverment has meddled way more than the CIA would have you know.

Also, sadly, there are places that poor in the USA, some of them in my state.

I agree completely that no one back in the 1800's or now takes leaving their home to come to the US lightly. I think it sucks to hear that so many people do not/did not welcome them.

Apocalipstic 04-29-2010 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by June (Post 95025)
Apoc -- You are right and I totally glossed over this. Let me see if I can get Kat in here, we have had this conversation in our house a few times and she is way more savvy on the ins and outs of international politics than I am. I'm all about the touchy/feely human stuff. :)

:) cool!

Most of the problems the US has now are self created which for me is why I makes me even more brokenhearted when people like you said think "I got mine, you need to stay the hell away"

Kat 04-29-2010 11:43 AM

I've read so many excellent pieces about the rise in "illegal" immigration from Mexico, resulting from the many inherent flaws in the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), signed into law by my buddy, Bill Clinton, in 1994.

Unfortunately, my powers of recall are virtually non-existent. But I do know that NAFTA essentially forced Mexico to import more agriculture products from the U.S. like corn, soybeans, wheat, etc. that they grow themselves just fine, but that happen to be HEAVILY subsidized by the U.S. government, and thus are much, much cheaper.This basically wiped out the already-struggling poor Mexican farmers, which is one of the primary causes of increased immigration in the last 16 years. Before Bill Clinton...I mean, NAFTA...you didn't hear about people dying in the desert in the hope of making it to the land of hope and dreams for a better future. Nobody was talking about building walls to keep people out, either. NAFTA definitely started the ball rolling...

(Pretty good summary of NAFTA and its flaws from CounterPunch this past January: http://www.counterpunch.org/gallagher01012010.html)

But the fact that Arizona has been one of the states hardest hit by the U.S. housing collapse has led directly to this crazy new law there. Folks in AZ have lost their houses at an alarming rate, and who is always to blame at times like this, when everything is going to hell? THOSE people -- "it's THEIR fault I don't have a job, it's THEIR fault my house has lost 75% of it's value! Them and the GAYS! Let's get 'em!" A story as old as time itself...

(Article from Salon yesterday about the British Prime Minister calling a constituent a bigot, but makes a broader point about how bad economic policies lead some people to lash out at others different from them, and also mentions Arizona: http://www.salon.com/news/politics/w...ion/index.html)

Apocalipstic 04-29-2010 01:47 PM

Thank you Kat! Yes indeed.

But US meddling goes wayyyy father back.

The US and US companies have meddled in pretty much all of South and Central America since there has been a US.

United Fruit Company, UFCO, owned huge tracts of land in the area of now is (to mention a few) the Bahamas, Cuba, Costa Rica, Columbia, Ecuador, Jamaica, Guatemala, etc. They built and controlled 100% of transportation and communication in these countries and established who ran them and who got to work.

The Panama Canal, we took the land from Columbia and created the Canal Zone, which only recently was allowed it's independence.

Cuba? Between UFCO and organized crime (Mafia), Cuba is now communist because of the US. Period.

Honduras?

Nicaragua?

Chile?

Argentina?

The CIA and the US government in my lifetime has been all up in coups and trying to run everything.

The raping of these countries has gone on for 200 years, and we now want to harass everyone with brown skin who "might" be from a country we destroyed for their papers. Papers some think it should not be a big deal for them to carry and use as examples Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union and North Korea.

I really am almost (heh) speechless.

OK OK, I actually could go on and on about why the problem of undocumented workers from Mexico, the Caribbean, Central & South America is the fault of the USA.

The US created the mess and the US needs to fix it.

The war on drugs in not the answer.

The war on undocumented workers not the answer.

War makes it sound like there is an enemy which should be defeated...but the enemy is and has been the US in this disaster.

Don't make me pull out my US Diplomatic History textbook now....;)

UofMfan 04-29-2010 02:17 PM

We could start a whole new thread on what Kat and Apocalipstic have brought up.

I have one author to recommend, Noam Chomsky, the man is a genius, if anyone wants to expand their horizons and see how far back this began.

Apocalipstic 04-29-2010 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UofMfan (Post 95153)
We could start a whole new thread on what Kat and Apocalipstic have brought up.

I have one author to recommend, Noam Chomsky, the man is a genius, if anyone wants to expand their horizons and see how far back this began.

Or we could go back to my ill fated thread on why it is arrogant for people in the US to call ourselves "American", like we are the only ones who are.

Sorry for the derail! :)

I hope this new law is stomped out as unconstitutional as quickly as possible, and the people of Arizona can get back to their lives.

Soon 04-29-2010 02:31 PM

Immigration is Most Definitely a Feminist Issue

UofMfan 04-29-2010 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apocalipstic (Post 95160)
Or we could go back to my ill fated thread on why it is arrogant for people in the US to call ourselves "American", like we are the only ones who are.

Sorry for the derail! :)

I hope this new law is stomped out as unconstitutional as quickly as possible, and the people of Arizona can get back to their lives.

Oh God no I almost lost my lunch in that thread.

Apocalipstic 04-29-2010 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow (Post 95166)

What a great article, thank you so much for posting it. I have been so angered by all te other elements of this, that I have forgotten the feminist angle and how women are more targeted and way more likely to be raped.

Also, it talks about the history of the Southwest.

Very interesting! Thanks again!

Andrew, Jr. 04-29-2010 03:16 PM

It is headed to Maryland Now
 

It was announced on the local 5pm news here that the same law that was signed in Ariz. is being considered to be a new law in Maryland. There is going to be a poll taken by the state senate next week. Fuck. :argue:


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