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-   -   Obama's Public Support of Michael Vick (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2568)

julieisafemme 12-30-2010 04:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreadgeek (Post 256391)
You bring up a salient point here, Corkey--you'll notice that nothing I have said in the last three days of talking about this can be read as me forgiving Vick or proclaiming him my new best friend and boon companion through thick-and-thin. I don't know Mr. Vick and the odds-on chances are that I will never meet him since he lives in an orbit that, quite honestly, I don't aspire to. Blessedly, it is not up to me to forgive him.

I'm a sucker for redemption stories. Maybe because of my own manifest flaws and the ways in which I have lived below my potential or made just mind-numblingly stupid choices. I want to believe that Michael Vick truly feels remorse. Because even though some people--perhaps with good reason--believe that he doesn't feel remorse or doubt it, I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. I want to because it would be a better world by a small increment if he felt remorse and was truly determined to go down a different road. I want to because I want to believe my own self-redemption--from something I will not bore you with the details with--was genuine. I hope it was. Everyday I wake up and strive to be a little better than I was yesterday--a little more the woman I dreamt of being, the woman my son saw when he was only six months old, the woman my wife fell in love with, the person I sold myself to my employer as being, etc. I don't believe in any kind of divine beings or afterlife, as far as I can tell, this is It. You have one take at life, there are no rehearsals, and the director said "Action!" the moment you took your first breath we have a limited amount of time in which to figure out how we are going to live. The consequences we wreak on other's lives are very, very real. None of the things I've done that were stupid in galactic proportions were done out of malice or a desire to do evil. Most were done out of selfishness and within a reasonable amount of time, I realized how horribly I'd fucked up. Then I only wanted to make things better. Absent other evidence, I feel bound to give Mr. Vick the benefit of the doubt because I've been a complete fuck-up at times in my life.

That might be pure sentiment on my part. It probably is. I still want to believe that he understands that what he did was wrong, that he only wants to make things right and I hope that his example inspires others to turn away from cruelty. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. I know I would mean it and for all the right reasons. I want to believe that he would to.

Cheers
Aj
Yasher Koach or continuing strength to you! Thank you for sharing this. What I find resonates the most with me is that you have found a way to forgive yourself. I have found this very difficult to do and it is the key to being able to forgive others or if not in the position to forgive, to at least believe in the potential for redemption.

dreadgeek 12-30-2010 05:31 PM
Saw this at HuffPo and thought it makes a very, very good point.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dave-z..._b_802821.html
Pundits, man your stations. It seems that the Fox News commentator Tucker Carlson yipped that Eagles quarterback Michael Vick should have been executed three years ago when convicted on dog-fighting charges.

Many are now getting hot and bothered expressing shock that Carlson would actually call for Vick's execution -- a tad extreme even for Fox.

Frankly I was shocked that Carlson, humiliated so thoroughly by Jon Stewart many years ago, still is on the air. The guy has been on more canceled programs than Jennifer Love Hewitt.

In full, the paunchy, lipless, chinless, porcelain man-boy with the ubiquitous bow-tie said, "I'm a Christian, I've made mistakes myself, I believe fervently in second chances. But Michael Vick killed dogs, and he did in a heartless and cruel way. And I think, personally, he should've been executed for that."

I know it's hardly news for a Murdoch-owned, right-wing shock jock to say something shocking. It's like receiving word of a celebrity sex tape. The thrill is gone. I am also well aware that in the current media set up, it's Carlson's job to say something utterly outrageous and the job of people like myself to respond. We make statements about Carlson's peculiar brand of bloodthirsty Christianity. Maybe we point out how easy it is for Carlson to call for the death of an African-American athlete, always the low-hanging fruit for his race-baiting ilk.

We bat this particular ball back and forth like -- as one writer once said to me -- "two hookers working opposite sides of the street." The ensuing hothouse debate becomes an entertainment option for people soured on American Idol.

But there is actually a serious problem with this kind of 24-hour cable performance art when the subject is Michael Vick. It's that pesky entity pecking at the window of reality television known as "reality."

Dostoevsky said famously,"The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons." By that standard, the United States exists in a barbaric state. Enter a prison -- something I sincerely doubt Carlson has ever done -- and you see the daily, dreary reality for the 2.3 million people who live behind bars. In what's become the largest prison system on earth -- take that China! -- you see the herded poor stacked on top of one another. You see a world disproportionately black and brown with African-American men six times as likely to go to prison as whites, with one in nine black men between 20-34 living in a state of incarceration.

It's a country that through its addiction to privatized prisons and "tough on crime" legislation, has created what writer Michelle Alexander's calls "The New Jim Crow." In Alexander's book, The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness she details the way the prison system robs its present and past and even future inhabitants of voting rights, citizenship, and any semblance of political power. She points that the United States now imprisons a higher percentage of black men than South Africa at the height of apartheid. As she writes:

Jarvious Cotton's great-great-grandfather could not vote as a slave. His great-grandfather was beaten to death by the Klu Klux Klan for attempting to vote. His grandfather was prevented from voting by Klan intimidation; his father was barred by poll taxes and literacy tests. Today, Cotton cannot vote because he, like many black men in the United States, has been labeled a felon and is currently on parole.

Michael Vick, whether he likes it or not, is humanizing the struggle to find redemption after serving time in a maximum security prison. After all, if a star quarterback doing hours of community surface can't regain a foothold in society, who could? Tucker Carlson's efforts to dehumanize Vick and paint him as a disposable, killable individual cuts in a way that transcends the idiocy of Murdoch's 50-state southern strategy of dimples and dog whistles. I'd love for Carlson to spend even a week in Leavenworth and then make an effort to rebuild his nerfy little life. Then we'd see how a man without callouses could be so callous. This is why Michael Vick's story matters, and really another example -- as if more were needed -- of how Fox News has become a cancerous boil on the political soul of this country.

suebee 12-30-2010 05:33 PM
Aj was kind enough to send me a link to the American Humane Society in regards to the work that Michael Vick has done with them. The part that was most pertenant to what I've been talking about was the following:

Has Vick acknowledged that what he did to dogs was wrong?
Yes. Over the course of several face-to-face meetings and during appearances at our End Dogfighting programs, Vick has apologized and acknowledged the suffering he caused. He has expressed his remorse and his desire to help more animals than he harmed by being an advocate for the humane treatment of animals. We only agreed to give him an opportunity to speak with kids if he was committed to the goal of ending dogfighting and recognized that his past actions were cruel and unacceptable.

The article that has influenced my opinion of Vick the most was in fact reported widely in the media, and stemmed from a Dec 12/10 interview with him, which can be found here.

From this second article, these words most affected me:

The convicted dog-fighting ring operator, who spent 18 months in prison after being convicted in 2007, says he genuinely cares about animals and would love to have a dog as a household pet...again.

"I think it would be a big step for me in the rehabilitation process," he told TheGrio.com, a website that focuses on African-American issues. "I think just to have a pet in my household and to show people that I genuinely care, and my love, and my passion for animals."Unfortunately for the born-again animal lover, a federal judge overseeing Vick's case barred him from owning a dog during his three years of supervised release after prison, which does not end until 2012.

His latest comments to TheGrio.com have generated outrage, as well as support.

Many people believe that Vick, who has returned to the top of his profession, has redeemed himself and should be allowed to adopt or own a pet if he so chooses. On the other end of the spectrum are those who feel Vick should be banned from owning dogs for eternity.

Vick asserts that he is not a crazy person or a psychopath and that his criminal behavior was merely a product of his upbringing.

"What happened in my past and what I did in the culture I grew up in doesn't shape and mold me as the person I am now," he said. Vick continued, "I said it before that I wish I can own a dog and I'll continue to say it. I'm not allowed to, but I'm just saying I wish I could because my kids ask me every day. It's more so for them than for me."

Now I'm not going to say that I am capable of knowing what a man has in his heart simply by reading his words, but while he apparently DID acknowledge that his actions were wrong to the Humane Society officials, I suspect that he was asked specific questions. He'd have to be pretty damned stupid to say that he had no remorse for his actions. I don't know, maybe he changed his way of thinking and truly found a conscience. This is just where I'm a Doubting Susie.

In the second article - an interview, his reasons for owning another dog were to "show people that I genuinely care, and my love and passion for animals." and "because my kids ask me every day". (if they can have a dog). What I find missing from this is any reference to what a dog could bring to his family, or how he sees pet ownership differently than he used to.

These are only words in print. I don't know under what circumstances they were made, nor do I know what was left out of the interview. Maybe Vick has changed, but I guess I'll still have doubts until I see him say something that addresses what *I* think any abuser has to change within themself before they can really say they've changed: and that's their attitude and their belief system.

I hope he's changed. Not only were those innocent animals his victims, but he's let his family down horribly. But you'll all excuse me if I have lingering doubts. This isn't shoplifting we're talking about. It's multiple and systematic acts of horrible cruelty. The best I can do is to keep an open mind. Nothing says I have to like the guy, but on the other hand NOTHING I can do or say or think or feel is going to impact Michael Vick's life. I just hope he can use the rest of his life to positively affect others.


JustJo 12-30-2010 05:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreadgeek (Post 256391)
The consequences we wreak on other's lives are very, very real. None of the things I've done that were stupid in galactic proportions were done out of malice or a desire to do evil. Most were done out of selfishness and within a reasonable amount of time, I realized how horribly I'd fucked up. Then I only wanted to make things better. Absent other evidence, I feel bound to give Mr. Vick the benefit of the doubt because I've been a complete fuck-up at times in my life.
Yes, this exactly. I believe in redemption and second chances. I have screwed up more than I care to share...and my own life would look very different if there were no opportunities to redeem myself, to learn, to grow and to do better the next time around.

I found it interesting that Vick is working with the Humane Society to change the thinking about dog fighting...not with animal advocates, but with those that are participating or at risk of it. He's doing it voluntarily...not because he was ordered to. He's not being paid...in fact he's paying his own expenses as he does this.

Could he be doing this for PR? Sure. Could he have an ulterior motive? Sure.

But could he also be doing this because somewhere in the middle of that prison sentence he had an epiphany, or grew, and realized that he wanted to make up for what he'd done and keep others from going down the same path? Sure.

I don't know which it is. I can't know. But I have to give him the opportunity to redeem himself without judgment.

dreadgeek 12-30-2010 05:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by suebee (Post 256412)

In the second article - an interview, his reasons for owning another dog were to "show people that I genuinely care, and my love and passion for animals." and "because my kids ask me every day". (if they can have a dog). What I find missing from this is any reference to what a dog could bring to his family, or how he sees pet ownership differently than he used to.
I just want to say that this could just as easily be an artifact of editing rather than an artifact of either sentiment or writing. I'm not saying that is the case, simply saying that the parts of the interview that might be most germane here are not necessarily the parts that the editor thought would be most germane for the audience of the web site.

Cheers
Aj

Martina 12-30-2010 06:24 PM
You all have touched on the same point re the Ohio case. This is a quote from the article from The Nation that someone linked to.

Quote:
Carlson did not call for the execution of BP executives despite their culpability in the devastation of Gulf wildlife. He did not denounce the Supreme Court for their decision in US v. Stevens (April 2010) which overturned a portion of the 1999 Act Punishing Depictions of Animal Cruelty. After all with this "crush" decision the Court seems to have validated a marketplace for exactly the kinds of crimes Vick was convicted of committing. For many observers, the decision to demonize Vick seems motivated by something more pernicious than concern for animal welfare. It seems to be about race.

blush 12-30-2010 08:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BullDog (Post 256233)
Why don't people put their passion and energy into all the women and children that white men abuse? Why not focus on the white male power system that makes people of color, women, children, animals and the environment instruments of their control? That's where the locus of the mis-use and abuse of power is.

If ALL people (not just white men) were treated with respect, dignity and as equals maybe collectively we would treat our animals better too. How can you expect animals to be treated well in such a fucked up world with such fucked up value systems? Get to the root of the problems. People abuse animals because they think they have the right to.
I don't disagree with you, but to be fair, this thread is mostly about the repercussions of Michael Vick's phone call from Obama. It isn't shocking to me that posters are focusing more on that aspect. Awareness and discussions about any type of abuse doesn't detract from or "waste space" about other types of abuse. It's not like we have an empathy threshold.

I'd love to see a thread about the intersection of football and domestic violence.

Toughy 12-30-2010 11:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waldo (Post 255879)
Hey Toughy, don't you think it's a little um, uncomfortable, that you use the phrase "drop kick dog" in a thread about animal abuse??
Hey Waldo....

um.....no I don't find it uncomfortable.....I do have a sense of humor and I believe I inserted "laughin" in that thought to indicate the tone of the comment.

----------------
suebee (and others)............truly I get the idea that nothing will change your mind about Vick. I don't think you (and several other folks) actually 'grok' the inner city/rural culture that breeds dog fighting and/or cock fighting. Do you really think he should take a camera crew with him when goes to the 'hood to have those one on one conversations with those who still do this? If he did that, would you then say he is not sincere cuz he is just doing it for the publicity?

Would y'all be as outraged if he had been involved in cock fighting and not dog fighting............I'd bet the odds are greatly in favor of a resounding no...............

happy new year.......

(besides I need go and call my UConn friends and rub it in that Stanford destroyed the winning streak and spanked them the whole game......GO STANFORD!!!!)

BullDog 12-31-2010 12:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blush (Post 256525)
I don't disagree with you, but to be fair, this thread is mostly about the repercussions of Michael Vick's phone call from Obama. It isn't shocking to me that posters are focusing more on that aspect. Awareness and discussions about any type of abuse doesn't detract from or "waste space" about other types of abuse. It's not like we have an empathy threshold.

I'd love to see a thread about the intersection of football and domestic violence.
I'm very well aware that people can care about the abuse of animals and the abuse of women. I am one of them. Like I have already said people have brought up Vick time and time again- here and in the media. When do they ever talk about the systemic violence against women perpetuated by football players?

The Ben Roethlisberger incident just happened this year, yet most don't even seem to be familiar with it. He's one of the most famous figures in all of sports. He's also a white quarterback. Michael Vick is a black quarterback. They both play for sports teams in the State of Pennsylvania. Why is one getting so much air time and the other one doesn't? Because of Obama's phone call? Really I don't think so.

I don't know why I am supposed to take this to another thread. The over obsession of Vick has lots of racist tones to it which are being discussed here- quite appropriately. There's other big aspects to this story as well. Why are people so obsessed with one player who has been convicted and served his time?

katsarecool 12-31-2010 12:51 AM
I am from Georgia and the press gave this story lots of coverage. After charges were dropped by the victim the story died. So he was not tried and convicted big difference.

I'mOneToo 12-31-2010 04:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by katsarecool (Post 256645)
I am from Georgia and the press gave this story lots of coverage. After charges were dropped by the victim the story died. So he was not tried and convicted big difference.
Ben's case has been widely reported (although from a biased standpoint) in the locality where his first alleged offense occurred. It is NOT a closed case.


7/21/2009 A woman waits a year to accuse him of rape *a year after the fact* and files a lawsuit against him: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/907219995

7/22/2009 The Douglas county sheriff counters saying they cannot investigate a lawsuit: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/907229996

7/23/2009 Big Ben says he did not commit rape (but, he also does not state that the encounter never occurred): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/907239998

8/1/2009 Ben turns the tables and accuses the supposed victim of wrongdoing: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/907319993

8/15/2009 Ben's attorneys want a change of venue to a more favorable county: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/908149980

8/18/2009 motion to dismiss a suit (doesn't state WHAT suit and there's no statement by the victim in the article, but her "best friend" and co-worker states it's baseless): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/908189997

8/20/2009 Ben's lawyers say they have proof the accuser is lying: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/908199996 - comment calls her "McNutty"

8/21/2009 Both sides claim extortion: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/908219977

9/8/2009 Accuser's attorney says they'll drop it if he admits to rape: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/909089985

9/9/2009 Ben's lawyer refuses that offer: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/909099995

9/10/2009 Victim's lawyer wants list of everyone Ben has bedded, and Ben's attorney calls his accuser "mentally unstable": http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/909109995

9/14/2009 Ben's lawyer moves to have victim's statement struck: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/909149992

9/16/2009 (third judge since the lawsuit began) Refuses favorable change of venue for Ben: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/909169988

9/18/2009 Now Ben's lawyers say victim filed suit because she was trying not to get laid off: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/909189998

9/30/2009 Judge denies motion to dismiss: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/909309995

10/4/2009 more mud slinging, and a new lawsuit: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/910059996

11/8/2009 Ben's first accuser quits her job: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/911089994

3/5/2010 FRESH ASSAULT ACCUSATIONS against Ben, new locale:http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100309877

3/8/2010 Ben's lawyers say it never happened (again): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100309833

3/9/2010 Second accuser's attorney asks for privacy: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100309787

3/10/2010 Off-duty officers say second alleged assault never happened: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100319993

3/23/2010 DNA request withdrawn in Georgia case: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100329939

4/9/2010 DA to decide whether or not to charge Ben in Georgia: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100409760

4/9/2010 NBC hasn't said if he's invited back to the ACC golf tournament next summer (golf tournament/scene of the crime): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100409763

4/12/2010 No charges against Ben in Georgia (one can only guess as to how that was decided): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100419962

4/15/2010 Goodell: Decision on Roethlisberger in near future (in NFL): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100419908

4/16/2010 Police ties to Ben (in Georgia) still questioned: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100419813

4/19/2010 Goodell: Roethlisberger violated NFL policy (with bad judgments): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100419753

4/21/2010 Trooper can't keep working for Ben: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...EWS/100429951\

4/21/2010 Ben suspended for six games for bad behavior: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100429953

4/23/2010 Goodell can INCREASE suspension if more bad behavior: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100429885

4/26/2010 Ben will not appeal suspension: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100429795

4/29/2010 Ben's police buddies under more scrutiny: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100429649

6/3/2010 Ben makes the best of his second chance (and makes no apologies): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100609880

9/3/2010 Ben's suspension REDUCED to four games (did not commit any alleged rapes for 4 months): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100909922

12/27/2010 More mud on the first accuser's face, from Caesar's: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/101229819

It is still an ongoing situation. The first suit has not been settled in any way. Ben's reduction of his suspension for "good behavior" (not being alleged of any rapes for four months) seems preposterous. His remorseless comments on the 3rd of June just six months ago speak for themselves. He's claimed that he's reformed and convinced the NFL commissioner, even if his legal case is not resolved, and even if he did not get a call from Obama welcoming him back to the NFL.

Apologies if any omissions or incomplete links, ain't the best cut 'n paster on earth.

dreadgeek 12-31-2010 09:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toughy (Post 256627)
Hey Waldo....

um.....no I don't find it uncomfortable.....I do have a sense of humor and I believe I inserted "laughin" in that thought to indicate the tone of the comment.

----------------
suebee (and others)............truly I get the idea that nothing will change your mind about Vick. I don't think you (and several other folks) actually 'grok' the inner city/rural culture that breeds dog fighting and/or cock fighting. Do you really think he should take a camera crew with him when goes to the 'hood to have those one on one conversations with those who still do this? If he did that, would you then say he is not sincere cuz he is just doing it for the publicity?
Would y'all be as outraged if he had been involved in cock fighting and not dog fighting............I'd bet the odds are greatly in favor of a resounding no...............

happy new year.......

(besides I need go and call my UConn friends and rub it in that Stanford destroyed the winning streak and spanked them the whole game......GO STANFORD!!!!)
Stanford, Schmanford. Bears STILL eat Cardinals! :) Go Bears!

Sorry, Toughy, family tradition couldn't be helped. (My sister went to Stanford, I went to Cal)

Cheers
Aj

suebee 12-31-2010 09:21 AM
[QUOTE=Toughy;256627]suebee (and others)............truly I get the idea that nothing will change your mind about Vick. I don't think you (and several other folks) actually 'grok' the inner city/rural culture that breeds dog fighting and/or cock fighting. Do you really think he should take a camera crew with him when goes to the 'hood to have those one on one conversations with those who still do this? If he did that, would you then say he is not sincere cuz he is just doing it for the publicity?

Would y'all be as outraged if he had been involved in cock fighting and not dog fighting............I'd bet the odds are greatly in favor of a resounding no...............
QUOTE]SIZE][/FONT][/I][/B]

You can get whatever idea you want Toughy. I'm sure there is a big list of what other people would never consider forgivable. Your idea isn't based on my words - if you read my words, that is. Everything you've said here is presumptuous, at best. Do you have anything to say about Vick, or just the other members who are posting?

blush 12-31-2010 11:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BullDog (Post 256636)
I'm very well aware that people can care about the abuse of animals and the abuse of women. I am one of them. Like I have already said people have brought up Vick time and time again- here and in the media. When do they ever talk about the systemic violence against women perpetuated by football players?

The Ben Roethlisberger incident just happened this year, yet most don't even seem to be familiar with it. He's one of the most famous figures in all of sports. He's also a white quarterback. Michael Vick is a black quarterback. They both play for sports teams in the State of Pennsylvania. Why is one getting so much air time and the other one doesn't? Because of Obama's phone call? Really I don't think so.

I don't know why I am supposed to take this to another thread. The over obsession of Vick has lots of racist tones to it which are being discussed here- quite appropriately. There's other big aspects to this story as well. Why are people so obsessed with one player who has been convicted and served his time?
Well, my lack of knowledge about both Ben and Michael Vick has more to do with my dislike of football than anything else.

Toughy 12-31-2010 11:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreadgeek (Post 256743)
Stanford, Schmanford. Bears STILL eat Cardinals! :) Go Bears!

Sorry, Toughy, family tradition couldn't be helped. (My sister went to Stanford, I went to Cal)

Cheers
Aj
laughing..............actually I'm a Baylor fan for the next couple of years............gotta love Griner.........so I agree.........laughin..........Go Bears!!

Quote:
Originally posted by suebee
You can get whatever idea you want Toughy. I'm sure there is a big list of what other people would never consider forgivable. Your idea isn't based on my words - if you read my words, that is. Everything you've said here is presumptuous, at best. Do you have anything to say about Vick, or just the other members who are posting?
laughin............why the snark????? Obviously I read what you (and others) wrote and formed my opinion based on that. I also believe I did state my opinion about Vick. I also asked some questions for clarification and you didn't answer them...........soooooooooooooo.............I'm just saying without that clarification I am left with my stated opinion that you and some others don't see redemption for Vick under any circumstances.

-----------------------------------------------
(the above line means I am making a general comment here and not directing the comment to any specific person)

I also think unexamined racism is at play with Vick. There is no redemption for this black man, however several white men can get away with anything.

BullDog 12-31-2010 12:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blush (Post 256812)
Well, my lack of knowledge about both Ben and Michael Vick has more to do with my dislike of football than anything else.
My point wasn't about taking anyone to task for not knowing. The Vick case has been much more widely publicized outside of sports circles.

suebee 12-31-2010 01:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toughy (Post 256818)



laughin............why the snark????? Obviously I read what you (and others) wrote and formed my opinion based on that. I also believe I did state my opinion about Vick. I also asked some questions for clarification and you didn't answer them...........soooooooooooooo.............I'm just saying without that clarification I am left with my stated opinion that you and some others don't see redemption for Vick under any circumstances.

I've explained my position in great detail, and the only thing you have to say is that you get the "impression that.....". If you'd like to engage in a conversation with me I'd be glad to clarify. The only place where I've found any mention of Vick having any remorse about causing these animals pain and suffering was on the link that Aj sent me - and I addressed that. Do you have anything else to add?

suebee 01-01-2011 04:52 PM
I just came across this on my facebook page. It details some of what Vick did to the dogs. I don't have any words to describe my feelings about him anymore. Article from the S.F. Chronicle.

Here's something else I didn't know: Vick pled not guilty to the animal cruelty charges, which were later dropped in a plea bargain. Therefore none of the details of the abuse ever came out in court.

Again, I don't know what is in the man's heart now, but I find it hard to believe he's changed so radically in such a short time. Don't know what else to say.

Sue

Martina 01-01-2011 05:46 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ingrid..._b_803194.html

This kind of thing bothers me more -- because it's us -- the government, people in meetings making heartless decisions.

It doesn't matter what we think of Vick. i mean it might matter to you personally. It would matter if you were on his jury. But your lack of confidence in his ability to change is irrelevant. And it doesn't, in my opinion, give you the right to harrass him.

Strengthen the laws. That's worth doing. Harrassing Vick? Why? For publicity, to feel better? i don't get it.

suebee 01-01-2011 06:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martina (Post 257577)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ingrid..._b_803194.html

This kind of thing bothers me more -- because it's us -- the government, people in meetings making heartless decisions.

It doesn't matter what we think of Vick. i mean it might matter to you personally. It would matter if you were on his jury. But your lack of confidence in his ability to change is irrelevant. And it doesn't, in my opinion, give you the right to harrass him.

Strengthen the laws. That's worth doing. Harrassing Vick? Why? For publicity, to feel better? i don't get it.
I'm not sure who you're referring to when you talk about harassing Vick. I seriously doubt he comes on this site to read this thread. I think that in order for people to comprehend the magnitude of the problem of animal abuse, and realize that the laws do not adequately address it, they have to know some of the details. As is stated in the article I posted, Vick pled not guilty to animal cruelty, and those charges were later dropped in a plea bargain. He was convicted of bankrolling a dogfighting conspiracy. For those who are fond of saying he did his time - he did NOT - not for animal cruelty. And from what I read there isn't much else he could have done do to those animals.


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