Whenever a man has said to me--and this has happened more than once--"You just want to be a man," I say, "Well, that makes two of us."

I agree...which is why I objected to being told that my posts (and Tapu's) were somehow "not okay" and the others were.

I'm fine with any and all posting. I don't come in and smack people for derailing...I simply post what I want to, and allow others to do the same.

It's a simple approach, and lends itself to acceptance rather than policing others....and I'm all for that.

If folks here want to discuss serious subjects...have at it. I simply objected to Christie's attempts to police the thread (and me).

:olive:

Calling that common courtesy doesn't make it a neutral viewpoint. Real courtesy is mutual. Some of us in there leaping weren't disrespectful of those turning it into a platform for "butch voices" debate--no one said, "hey, wrong thread," now did they?--but at the same time when someone said anything else, it was squelched. To say that was the equivalent of interrupting a conversation about cancer to post about the Red Sox is at best hyperbole.

For the record, it had morphed into a discussion of who was getting paid or comped at this BV conference.

Hi Kobi,

I understand your point of view and appreciate your post. I am also a fan of common courtesy....which is why you'll rarely hear me telling anyone else what they should do, say, be, or how they should conduct themselves.

Here's the thing for me....and, yes, it ties in to feminism and our history if you'll bear with me.

As a woman, I have been told all of my life how I should behave, what I should value, how I should think, how I should look, etc. Who I was, was not acceptable to the larger society. I should conform, and accept the values of others and....for lack of a better summary....be a good girl.

When I come into BFP, which is supposed to be OUR space, where we can be ourselves, and get policed by other members.....I have an issue.

If I want to be silly or frivilous or serious or intellectual or pissed off is up to me. It is not up to anyone else.

There is another thread (or two) devoted to the subject of the Butch Voices conference. I am not in there leaping and joking. I have stayed out, out of simple respect, for a few reasons.

1. I'm not butch
2. I've never attended Butch Voices
3. I don't know any of the people involved
4. I don't know any of the history involved

I may go read, but I probably won't comment. And I certainly won't go be silly in that thread.

However, this thread started with a light-hearted tone. Yes, some serious conversations evolved, and I'm all for that. But I resent, like hell, being smacked for being light-hearted in a thread that was intended to be.

I also resent, like hell, being told how to behave by anyone.

If I have violated the TOS, and a moderator points it out to me, then I will acknowledge, apologize and do my damndest not to do it again. I also follow the laws of the larger society. I don't steal. I don't hit people. I don't even lie on my tax return. Heck, I don't even roll through stop signs. I'm a "rulester", as an old-co-worker named me.

I was raised by a mother that we called, among other things "the rabid feminist." I was not allowed to own a Barbie doll because they were tools of the oppressors. I was not allowed to take Home Economics (even though I loved the subject) or Typing in school because they were the means used to subjugate women. Get the feel for it?

Once again, who I was was not acceptable.

I have never been acceptable...not to the male-dominated conservative society that thought I should get married, have babies and blah blah blah (I'm almost 50....so those messages were alive and well).

I was not acceptable to the andro-lesbians of the 70s because of my inherent femininity.

Here's my personal feminism....and it took me a long damn time to come to....I am just fine. I am acceptable to me. Whether I have sex and relationships with men, or women, or no one at all....that's up to me. If I am intellectual and serious or goofy and frivilous....that's up to me. If I am aggressive, passive, assertive or indifferent....that's up to me.

I do not always (okay, almost never) spout the politically correct vernacular. I'm not a politically correct person. And that's up to me, too.

I am tired of people telling other people how to be....whether we do it in Butch Voices or other conferences, online, in our laws, or by declaring war on other countries.

Maybe I'm getting old and fed up (in fact, I'm sure I am)....but I am sick and tired of it. We do it all the time. We constantly message others.....don't think like that, don't talk like that, don't dress like that, don't use those words, use these words, be this way, call yourself this, don't vote like that, vote like this, believe what I believe, don't think for yourself........BLECH!

When we start behaving with each other the way the larger society has behaved towards us....by judging, censoring and shutting people down....then I'm going to do a big ass, polka-dot clad cannonball in the middle of it.

And that's up to me too. *end rant*

:olive:

heavy handed
 

this is not my forum....I read it since I am interested to know what people are saying 'n stuff...and sometimes I see the names of folks I stalk in here so I read it....(waves to Jo this morning)...

that said: it seems to me to be Very heavy handed, and pretty patronizing, to equate a line or two of lightness with coming into a cancer thread and talking baseball (I assume that's the red socks reference and not a fashion commentary?)...do we forget that one of the advantages of the internet is that we Do Not have to keep reading if we find, after the first few words, that what we are reading is not a good fit?...do we forget that when we are stern and do the public admonishment thing that other people, maybe some of the many folks who come and read and think and get something from this venue, may well think to themselves that they can't take the risk of posting lest they are deemed as not "enough" for the thread patrols?...

I have not said anything for a while, and not been sure If I had the 'right' to comment....this morning I feel I do...feel free to write this off to some 'oh that crazy-nina' thing...or,even better to have done, as I suggest and do myself, just stopped reading it when it became clear it was an annoyance or a derail or any other thing which didn't resonate...

Man, that Jo-babe really brings it. :)

Then we are in the same boat and, for the record, I don't use people as punching bags. I don't even use punching bags as punching bags. I simply speak my own mind, and invite you and everyone else to do the same.

How 'bout those Red Sox, huh?

the dodgers look good this season...

tapu - Did you mean this to be as disrespectful as it comes across to me?

Granted, I've yet to finish my first cup of tea for the day but it just seems to be intentionally pokey.

Jo -

I was going to respond to you in a PM as to not further derail, but it seems now this has become a conversation/topic for discussion.

I suppose you can call me a lot of things, but first and foremost, I tend to be respectful and kind to people. I find that moving thru the world is a lot easier if I treat people as I wish to be treated as opposed to quid pro quo.

I found (and still find) the silliness to be disrespectful. I didn't smack you on the hand or attempt to moderate. I simply identified a behavior that I see replicated time and time again that feels disrespectful and silencing TO ME.

Maybe I have some personal shit surrounding why to interrupt a conversation feels disrespectful - and I own that just as you have your stuff surrounding why you are offended by my comments on yours and tapu's posts. Maybe the two loves of my life (Jess and Bratboy) are both some kinda ADD and seem to CONSTANTLY interrupt me when I speak. We are both entitled to those feelings. If I am a little hypersensitive, then I do apologize; however, I don't think I was being overly sensitive to it based on the personal notes I got about my post. That's not me dragging someone into this, its me just saying, "Hey - I wasn't the only one."

Since this thread is not in the fluff category, I don't take it to be lighthearted, unless at the time, it is. In fact, until Kobi started a new thread (yesterday, maybe?) I do believe it was the only active thread in the Lesbian Zone.

Additionally, I had no clue there was another thread about the BV issues - I don't often read all the threads unless a new one happens to catch my eye on the front page.

I didn't see the conversations as being solely about BV. Honestly, the only time butch issues come into play for me is when they affect Jess. For the most part, I stay out of them, more because I am weary of "butch" being made less than or a stopping point on the road to male/trans. My tolerance for the pushing aside the butches in our online communities (feeding into real-time communities) is about nil.

I saw a couple of different issues being discussed more than BV and how they spend their money. I saw butches talking about how changing the venacular felt silencing and erasing. I saw conversations about why it matters if a transman heads up a group that was supposed to be about butches and the many faces of butch.

We can agree to disagree on your intent, but I would like to mention that if your intent was because you were "sick to fucking death of folks trying to define others" (not a precise quote) then why not just say that? I share your feeling of being sick to fucking death of labels and the ensuing discussions, interpretation of qualifiers, etc. I just chose not to engage in those conversations.

But, when those conversations are taking place in a thread I subscribe to, I usually don't get involved because I am liable to post that I am sick of them and that would be just as silencing and disrespectful to folks as I feel like the silly derails are...

I hope this makes it more clear for you that, like a whole lotta other folks contributing here, I saw something that felt disrespectful and simply pointed it out. I'm not sure what makes it wrong for me to do so and yet not others?

If you would like, we can continue this in PM.

Hi Christie,

I appreciate you coming back in to clarify. I put my notes in purple to respond....because it just seems easier.

I'm not sure how to say this to be really clear but ....what it boils down to for me....you are absolutely welcome to say whatever you like, even when you're disagreeing with me. I'll do the same. And that's truly okay with me.

I am not used to the heightened fragility that pervades the threads. I haven't suffered enough, or I'm not holding over enough past suffering now. I've been encouraged to post as I do--that at least it's interesting and different--but it does seem that an awful lot of people are getting hurt rather than just going with it.

There's an honest answer. I haven't decided if I'll stick with it or leave here. I'm hoping to be able to stick with it, but it's a little nerve-wracking.

I try very hard to only use "I" statements on the planet, I get less flack that way. Though I had even been misunderstood when I posted something that I read as completely positive.

That said, I feel I must comment and let the chips fall where they may.

For some reason, this thread as well as the other Lesbian thread, is pushing a lot of our buttons. I think we can all agree that it is a subject near and dear to our hearts.

I think that many of us can agree that the fact that there are so many former lesbians (I can hear the shit now for saying former but for me, if you were a woman-identified woman, not on T, loving and having sex with women, to ME, that is the definition of a lesbian) transitioning stirs up lots of feelings for us.

Those of you that do not agree with my definition, no problem, you do not need to agree with me. It is simply my opinion and perception. Yours may be different. You can disagree but do not attack me for seeing it differently than you do.

Many of may feel negated (I do sometimes). Many of us feel like our herstory is being negated (I do sometimes) and underneath all of the feelings that get stirred up is FOR ME and I speak for myself here is:

Fear and Anxiety.

When I feel fearful and anxious, it is much easier for me to get angry. Anger makes me feel much stronger than fear does.

I read lots of things on these threads that I do not agree with. I try really hard to not be reactive but to be thoughtful to try to figure out why something is bothering me.

We owe that to each other don't we? We are all lesbians here are we not, commenting on lesbian issues? We do not have to agree but we do have to be polite, respectful and thoughtful when we read something that hits us wrong or makes us upset.

Out in the world people give us shit all day long for who and what we are and for what we believe. I really do not want to do that to my Lesbian sisters, whether you are butch or femme and I hope everyone can take a step back so that we can continue to learn from each other.