I had never heard of Michael Vick until the charges and conviction of animal cruelty and dog fighting came out in the media. I think it comes down to money. He has skills and talent that people can make money from so it doesn't surprise me he is back in the NFL. Did Obama give a reason for his public support of Vick? Is Vick or the team he works for a big contributor to the Democratic Party. Of all the things on a President's plate it seems an odd thing to take time out to do unless campaign contributions play a big part in all this at some level. Or am I just way off here?

Melissa

Some of Vick's blog post sounds like PTSD to me.

from the National Center for PTSD article Criminal Behavior and PTSD:

And the article - Criminal Behavior and PTSD: An Analysis

Emotional numbness seems to be mostly associated with either depression or ptsd. Either way it sounds like he doesn't (or maybe didn't) have a whole lot of empathy - that he has more with people than with animals (which i think is generally true of most people) so if he truly feels regret now it's because he's been able to feel a bit of empathy for the other people who have feelings of empathy toward the dogs. If his trouble was a deficit of empathy, it seems people have a deficit of empathy toward him too.

With the shooting of Gabby Giffords, first people blamed, then people generally started looking at causes. With the shooter, people tend to talk about gun control or they tend to talk about the state of mental health assistance in this country. It's obvious that guy has something wrong with his head if you watch his youtubes. But I think white people have traditionally been more prone to jump toward a psychology-oriented conclusion about another white person. (Meaning white people tend to seek understanding when other white people commit crimes).

It's also a lot easier to to demonize Michael Vick because it's way easier to look at what he did and point the finger - than to look at what happened to that poor animal you yourself ate for dinner last night - whose lifetime probably contained even less joy and more suffering than some of those dogs.

I've noticed white people tend to like Hemingway (though maybe that's just the white people I know) despite his love affair with bullfighting and killing things.

'Nobody ever lives their life all the way up except bull-fighters.'
- Chapter 2, The Sun Also Rises, Ernest Hemingway

And Madonna seemed to advocate for bullfighting when this video was made:



(and by the way, this is a very sanitized version of what bullfighting entails). White people didn't call for her death after that video was made.

remember that cute little disney movie called "The Fox and the Hound"?



The reason they were destined to be pitted against each other was because the hound was going to grow up to hunt foxes. (A tradition originated in England).

In the US it's perfectly accepted to eat cow, chicken, lamb and pig - no matter what sufferings they endure before they end up on your plate. lobsters (cooked alive, mind you). Raw oysters are eaten alive and nobody bats an eye. There's a growing trend in the US for eating octopi and lobsters while they are still alive. Hunting is a huge "sport" here in the US. Few people have issues with horse-racing, but horse-racing also involves animal cruelty. Nobody called for Julia Roberts' death after she was seen at the races in the movie, "Pretty Woman."

Ever worn silk? Do you know where it comes from? Silk-worms make their little coccoons and settle down for a nice metamorphosis, and then people take the coccoons and heat them to death. Bugs are pretty fair game for most people though.

People failing to spay/neuter their pets is one of the primary reasons that most animal shelters cannot be no-kill shelters.

Hey, guess where dogfighting came from? Per NPR:

Anyway, animals are treated like shit in this world and I think it's extremely short-sighted to villify this one guy. It seems like a type of denial, a type of externalizing behavior.

Charlie Sheen can threaten his significant other with a knife, and he's still sitting pretty on 2 and a half men. White violence and black violence are not thought of or treated the same in the media or in the justice system in the US.

I think Vick says some really interesting things - instructive things - in his blog post.

It wasn't punishment, anger, revenge or shaming that helped Michael Vick feel anything about what he'd done. It was connection with people - it was people who took the time and who were brave enough to set aside talk of violence and revenge and instead sought that connection and understanding.

A while back now, there was a kid that made a gay-bashing game. Here, there was a thread about it. A few of us responded in anger. Diva had the presence of mind to reach out to the kid, who wrote back very politely and said he would remove the game. He had been fine with the angry comments on his game, but it was Diva's graciousness and respect, coupled with a genuine interest in his understanding the effects of his behavior, that caused him to change. Sounds like a similar phenomenon to me.

I know this post is kinda everywhere but hey so am I.

PS. Did I mention pate de foie gras?

suebee,

Just wanted to say that although you didn't indicate I was off track or anything, I should not have spoken for you. Not sure why I did that...maybe b/c it was an older thread and didn't know if you would come back here?

Regardless, I shouldn't have. Sorry.

Netflix is streaming Michael Vick's show called:

This makes me sick to my stomach I can't believe he has his own show.

Yeah that's how I feel about the Anthony woman who killed her kid yet got no time, she's free yet everyone forgot about her.

He's done his time, he too should get a second chance.

Yeah I don't like the idea of Casey Anthony going free but I do not believe in second chances for what either of them did. But that is just me.

I'm very happy he has his own show. He has been working hard (in partnership with the Humane Society and others) across the country to end dog fighting. This show sounds like it will be another way for him to get the message of redemption and forgiveness out to others.

People can and do change. Vick deserves praise for what he is now doing.

Hell yes! If white America is still angry with a Black man after he served the sentence assigned to his crime,

White america can see this as an example of it's racism (i.e. Black men are not redeemable)

And/or

Outraged people need to be visible in participating more fully in their judicial/sentencing system. I'd like to see who they are, and participation in developing community standards is a valuable process.

And so much more.

Thanks for posting this Lady Snow. There are some parts of this that really resonate with how I feel about dealing with people who have committed some criminal acts that we see as atrocious in our society. I've bolded the bit that really hit home to me. From that excerpt, it shows him saying that he learned more from educating himself on animal rights, changing his perspectives on animals and their ability to feel, and on rehabilitating himself, than from being directly punished for his actions.

I've noticed a few things with the way some here (both in this thread and others) talk about people who have been convicted of crimes, especially where violence is concerned. I feel that many continue to take an eye for an eye mentality, and the idea that people cannot change or that people don't commit crimes because of their own experiences. What many fail to understand is that an overwhelming number of crimes committed (and yes, many of them horrendously atrocious) are committed because of an individual's upbringing and social situation. This is why many of the people incarcerated for these acts are from marginalized communities; people who come from certain nations, certain neighbourhoods, certain economic backgrounds, who have suffered discrimination a good chunk of their life because of their race, nationality, sexual orientation, religion, gender identity etc. And we perpetuate the discriminatory laws, social practices and environments that often result in these crimes, by claiming that once these acts are committed, that those who committed them can't be rehabilitated, that they must be shunned perpetually, that they are by nature "monsters."

And yet there are countless examples of successful rehabilitation even among the most "atrocious" crimes. Institutions which take rehabilitation over punishment seriously, show very low numbers of repeated offense when compared to the punishment/banishing system.

If a person grew up in an environment where animals were not considered to have the capability to feel pain or despair, or where animals were not treated humanely, then it is no wonder that they continue the cycle of animal abuse. I remember talking to an acquaintance from Pakistan about his own experiences with animals as a kid, and where he partook in animal abuse. He had described an occasion where he and some friends had allowed a cat to drown by not letting it out of a body of water, and how they saw it as a sort of game to deter the cat from getting out of the water. He looks back on it as a really cruel thing to do and regrets its wholeheartedly, but back then he didn't see it that way, and it wasn't alarming to adult society, either. Does that make Pakistani society a society of "monsters" or "sociopaths" who should be punished by the "morally superior" western world? No. Because that is not how people see cats/animals in general where he grew up. He sees things differently now, and not for some racist reason of the west "bringing civility" or some similar bullshit, but because the original frame of reference has been widened and a greater understanding of the nature of animals and their capabilities occurred for him. As humans, we are extremely flexible and adaptable. We are forever learning new things, which utterly change our worldviews.

Many people who grow up in abusive or violent environments become abusive and violent themselves because they perceive it as a part of the currency of that environment. Does it mean everyone becomes that way? No. But many do. If we condemn people without giving them the opportunity to rehabilitate or educate themselves with information many of us take for granted, we will find ourselves continuing to overwhelmingly incarcerate people from marginalized backgrounds because of their backgrounds...which were, in turn, created by discriminatory social practices to begin with.

Does this mean the crime is "excused." No, that is fallacious thinking that assumes that in order for a person to "pay" for a crime they must suffer or be punished. But I don't think that does much good. Instead, what I'm saying means that people are convicted with the intent toward rehabilitation...not to punish them perpetually when they are entirely capable of change.

It's a horrible cycle that needs to end.

What's your point? I can tell you exactly what happened to those dogs......almost anyone can.

FFS
 

Yanno he could of served 20 years and I'm sure that STILL wouldn't of been enough, I stand by firmly in what I will ALWAYS say: had it been some white football player raping a woman this would of never happened OH WAIT it happens ALL the fucking time and I zero ZERO picketing, screaming, PETA or anyone calling out those injustices Vick on the other hand CONTINUES to be vilified, picketed, screamed at hell his very death in this thread was called for.

Somewhere somehow the value of animals now out trumps that of women and children.

Some went to a rehab and some were put down, he hung one from a tree as well, I think its public record if there is research done.

Sorry for snipping the post, but just to tag on to that: And that's the thing. What do people think would be achieved with him serving a longer sentence, being banished from the NFL and being perpetually shunned?

Instead, he seems, for all intents and purposes, to be a good example of rehabilitation and is doing work in favour of animal rights now. Had he been dealt with in the harsh way that some encourage, none of the above would have occurred and instead he'd be sitting in a jail cell instead of contributing something to society...which he seems to be doing now with his current activism. The whole punishment system is not particularly productive or socially progressive.

On a side note on the subject of PETA and sexism, I never fail to chuckle when it comes to PETA expressing outrage about any rights issue...coming from the organization that frequently objectifies women in order to get more hits on their website (Seriously, how many times are they going to pull the PETA porn site thing to try to pull in more male supporters? Pathetic, imo), I'm not sure how they expect to be taken seriously. I think for these extremists (and they really are...I don't think any credible animal rights activist should be taking them seriously) animal rights trump everyone's rights (zomg, Obama swatted a fly!).

That said, I'm not sure it should be turned into an issue of women's/children's rights vs. animal rights because...it really shouldn't come down to that. It shouldn't have to do with one rights issue vs. other rights issues, but that the public begin valuing women's/children's rights more than they currently do. Animal rights, unfortunately, sometimes come off as the token "good deed" for the middle and upper classes, much like donating to bogus charities they believe are actually making a difference for famine or disaster-struck nations (which in many cases, the money doesn't even get there). But it's a "feel good" for them.

The public should simply become more aware of the grave and manifold injustices taking place in these cases: for example Vick's case not being simply about animal rights, but also about racism, marginalization and prisoner rehabilitation/rights. And the ability of the public to look at how similar outcries don't always occur as far as well-known rapists (unless some grizzly murder is involved, it would seem), and other discriminatory issues that occur there. I think a big part of it is people being too lazy to change their own knee-jerk reactions to things, and so they pass them off as "not really racist/sexist/etc./everybody does it" and how that helps perpetuate racism and sexism in the modern west.

I cringe each time I see this thread pop up again. I’ve followed along at various times, but because it is such an emotional issue for me, I haven’t read the whole thing. But it does seem to have turned into a thread more about Michael Vick than about President Obama.

As someone who has worked with abused animals, including pit bulls, the horror of dog fighting for pleasure and money is incomprehensible to me. I know that no one here is validating Michael Vick’s violent abuse & profiting off the abuse of innocent animals (at least I hope not), but it is difficult for me to accept that he deserves “praise” for what he is doing now.

I can appreciate that he is working with the Humane Society. Maybe this has something to do with how I was raised; I was never rewarded for doing the “right thing” or what was expected of me. I was; however, punished when my behavior was found unacceptable. So, I can see that would be my “normal” and is bound to influence how I see the world.

I wasn’t raised by a family that valued the lives of animals. When I was young, my mother had my sister’s dog put to sleep to punish my sister. I’ve seen cruelty to both people and animals. In my experience, someone who abuses animals is way more likely to abuse their children and spouses, as well. To me, violence is violence, regardless of whether it is unleashed upon a woman, child, animal or man. I won’t argue whether violence to a human or animal is worse. For me, I don’t see any reason to compare them. Why would I? They are both wrong.

I hope that Michael Vick proves to be a loyal ally in the fight against animal abuse. Time will tell. I will stand with anyone who will fight to protect the innocent and the abused. I believe in rehabilitation and redemption. But, I also believe that we all live with the consequences of our choices and actions. I can’t forget the suffering he caused, his past doesn’t disappear. Neither does mine. All any of us can do is move forward and do the next right thing. Today is a new day.

Well said, Purepiesces. I have a bully girl who was used as a "baiter" dog in dog fighting. We found her dumped on a road side, holes in her body and severely underweight. She managed a tiny tail wag when we approached and then she tipped over. She didn't get back up again until five days later and two different vet clinics worked on her. I'm more than happy to share pictures of her before and after.

So I've seen up close the effects of dog fighting, and I have read the very disturbing details of the treatment of dogs in the Michael Vick case.

Lets let the true healing and awareness grow,and lets let cruelty not be consigned to a species or a type of person or to any convenient target. But lets make cruelty the target and work toward a more consistently kind and respectful way to treat all.


"You can judge a society by the way it treats its animals" - Gandhi

Article: Vick's Work