I just wanted to say a huge "Thank you" to everyone who offered support to me yesterday and today (pink socks!). I felt a tremendous rush of love and courage and have just sent my resignation letter.

I rewrote it several times so that I could check myself for anger, projection, and gross stuff and I feel like, with the love and support and suggestions from folks here, that I sent a resignation that is truthful, authentic, from my "me" place, and healthy.

I feel exponentially better.

Thank you all so so so much.

*exhale* :loveletter:

My intention was to open up the conversation to butches/trans as to what THEY can do in their mindset or interactions with femmes to change how WE are perceived. All members of this community are accountable for how femmes are perceived. It will take all of us to make changes.

However, I'm certainly not seeking to be told by butches/trans what I (or femmes) can do to make myself "less invisible" or whathaveyou.

I, too, consider this space femme-based.

{{{{{{{{{{{Adele}}}}}}}}}}}} Thank you for posting from a gentle place. I have also been doing my best to post from a gentle place.

The reason you feel like I didn't hear what e said about conversation with Kosmo behind the scenes is that I believe that no one has the right to speak for Kosmo which is, after all, the point here: if no one has the right to speak for us except us, then how can we turn around and claim the right to speak for anyone else?

I think that there were many ways to interpret Blush's post, and I think it's clear that Kosmo interpreted it exactly the same way I did. That might be a mistake in interpretation, but answering a direct request for information is not, I think, the same as someone "invading our space" so to speak. Yes, we have the right to carve out our space... but I believe we should be willing to accept that sometimes people interpret things differently--which to me is not the same as deliberately stealing our space.

In the end, none of us got it right anyway; Blush posted that she meant something different. *wry smile*

Does this make sense? Can you see my point?

I have no arguments with this thread being Femme space. I have no arguments with e and the way she is shepherding the convo. I appreciate what she is doing. I just needed clarity--which e provided--about who is welcome to post.

Thank you for clarifying, Blush. I appreciate it. As you can see from my answer to Adele, I also interpreted your post as a request to Butches and Transmen to tell us what we can do to change the way we are perceived. I'm sorry for the misinterpretation.

I realize that nothing is perfect, but I just want to say that every time I read a post on this thread (and on a couple of others), I just breathe a huge sigh of relief. I'm so grateful that we can have discussions about difficult, emotional topics, and still treat each other with respect and kindness. So, to you (all) from my mushy place, THANK YOU! This kind of open, honest, thoughtful discourse is, for me, the opposite of silencing. And, it goes a long way toward providing a space for me to "be"--and hopefully, it does the same for the collective you. Thank you!!

:rose:Lynn

I'm taking this to everyone.

I see what I feel to be some interesting things happening here from a sociological perspective. I created a thread in which we could explore the ways in which feminine people are sublimated by the overall masculine-over nature of our communities, but I also had an eye toward the way in which we permit that subjection. How we, femme people, propagate it, as it were.

On one level, the conversation I've been having with Bit has been frustrating for me (not Bit, just the convo). I only meant to show that a butch person cannot and should not answer for us a question that can only be answered by us. This isn't personal, it is necessary. I saw Kosmo rewording Blush's question in such a way as to make it only answerable by femmes, and for me, this was an opportunity to speak to my point from the OP.

On another level, this conversation has been an important one because of what it might have revealed, and how it allows us to engage.

When we're in discussions over trans topics, I know that I hear transfolks saying, "Cispeople cannot tell us what we need to do to be understood/seen/etc. In order to be good allies, they need to listen."

I know that in the female-id'd butch thread, if any other id'd individual were to make a suggestion to them about them, they'd have a great deal to say to that poster. I think they have that right.

The bottom line here is that I want us to be as fiercely protective of ourselves as we have always tended to be of others.

It keeps coming up that perhaps I should have shut down this conversation to certain other individuals. It is not my intention to show anyone the door. I am not going to ask anyone to stay out of this conversation. I desire participation. I love every kind of voice there is. Bring the variation. But I will speak to masculine-centrism where I see it, and to old habits when they reflect masculine-over thinking. I believe there has been masculine-over thinking evident in this thread, and not just by masculine people. It's super important to me that we all look at this, at ourselves and one another and consider this syndrome.

Right now:

I want to know what the rest of you are seeing.

I want to know if all of you would prefer to hear the voices of everyone here (should they choose to participate), or only femme voices.

A lot of good questions about how we participate in masculine-centrism were skipped over pages ago. I hope more of you will think about those questions and answer them.

I've been thinking about those questions and will try to come back with some answers.

*I* Snow a Femme person type, would love to have femme's speak for themselves and NOT take a step back and let or allow the butch talk on their behalf.. For me and this is just me- I don't think and I could be wrong that any butch can honestly speak for me, about me, and about what I experience...

I could be wrong though

Totally agree.

I certainly don't mind hearing from the "others," but this needs to be a femme-based space. As I said before, I'm mildly curious if these conversations the femmes are having are changing behaviors or attitudes with the "others," but I'm much more curious about our experiences and lives.

Bit, no worries! I re-read my post, and I wasn't clear.

I think femmes are "trained" to come up with an elaborate, bullet-proof reason for leaving or changing a situation. If the explanation doesn't satisfy the requirements of our audience, then we are expected act accordingly.

It reminds me of a Greek Chorus following me around.

In those situations, explaining may do one of 2 things:
-feeds their attention black hole (which may be why you're leaving anyway)
or
-subject your reasons to their judgment. They feel justified in telling YOU why YOUR reasons and YOUR choices are wrong.

I speak my truth when I need to. I don't speak it to satisfy others.

I'm thinking about your questions, e, and considering my own reactions throughout the course of this thread.

Is it naive of me to think of this thread as some kind of separate, discrete space? I don't think so. Otherwise, why are there different forums and threads? Why can't I have the expectation that a discussion about femmes, for femmes, in a forum called "The Femme Zone," could be had WITH femmes?

I know that others are interested in this topic and supportive of the femmes they know and love. I don't mean to devalue that when I speak honestly and say that I don't think that has anything to do with the subject of femmes speaking about the femme experience. In this context, it becomes somewhat non-sequitor. Not wrong. Not mean, silencing, or anything bad. Just not related to the discussion that I perceive we're having. Of course, my perception isn't everyone's, and clearly, there are femmes who have a completely different viewpoint. It's not just *my* discussion, and I know that.

No one has ever asked me to respond to questions about being femme without also defining what that should mean to me. That, of course, leaves no room for my actual experience. It's really empowering and validating to have someone ask a question and then actually LISTEN to the answer. The validation comes from the sharing of experiences with others who can empathize because they've experienced the same things. Validation comes from just being listened to, with caring and understanding. That's my feeling about the beauty of this thread.

The problem is IMO that we start asking in the first place...femme asks a question..butch answers..

..if we allow it..is another point!

I was wondering if you could clarify I am having a hard time getting this..

Are you saying that femme's should not ask questions?

Sorry it's one of those morning where my brain is just not functioning..:freak:

Right, so in that vein, I think that it is FINE if a butch or trans guy responds. Not for us, not about us, but in support of us. Those are the lines that I think get blurred. I for one would LOVE to hear dialogue on ways butches and trans guys can be supportive. From their own mouths. And I am pretty sure that is welcome here.

Yes, I feel taken much more seriously since I have been in a relationship.
Wayyy more seriously.