* Bingo * I believe respect, or lack of it, is mostly at the bottom these signals of "silencing". I have had things said to me in threads at that "other" site which I found very disheartening, rude, and silencing. Because someone says something that someone else doesn't think is relevant doesn't mean that it's not of value to others.

In reality everyone who has something to say has a right to say whatever it is. It seems that saying it, hearing it, responding to it with "mutual respect" seems to be the culprit for the most part. For the life of me I cannot figure out why this is such a difficult thing to grasp and do.

Going back to enjoying my Christmas day now ;)

Bulldog,

You got me. I am one of those who has identified as masculine butch. In my mind what I was trying to get across is that - gender-wise - I don't identify as male or female, man or woman. I used masculine thinking it was a useful alternative to male or female, but as you point out, it really isn't. Female id'd butches identify as masculine, male id'd butches identify as masculine - I think it is probably safe to say that most, if not all butches identify with masculinity. So to call myself a masculine identified butch is basically redundant.

I guess I was trying to create a category so that I wouldn't have to identify myself by saying what I'm not (not man or woman) because as we know that can come across as stigmatizing those identities. I'm female in the biological sense, but I don't feel like I fit into either gender category. I guess this is one instance when, if I need to qualify myself in terms of gendered male and female, I'll have to go with the 'not' identifiers. So from now on, I will never call myself a masculine butch; masculine gives you no additional information beyond butch.

You rock Bulldog!

Thank you Wicket for taking my words in the spirit it was intended. You rock too.

I understand the difficulties of language- there aren't any words to really describe the space between male and female or man and woman. However, yes, most butches consider themselves to be masculine so I believe it is redundant to say masculine identified.

Also to use it in the sense to signify non-woman and/or non-female is quite problematic for me. Women can be and are masculine (not just butches), and for me it is very important not to lose sight of that- through language or anything else. It is also important for me that we continue to expand what woman can be- not of course to make others into women who don't feel that they are.

Quite frankly from my perspective, female identified is redundant too. I have just used it in the past so that I would not be mistaken for being male or male identified. Just Butch is fine for me, or for my own longtail version it's Stone Butch Lesbian. :D

Hey Bulldog,

I really appreciate this dialogue.

Originally I identified only as butch - for me that was my gender that existed outside of male and female. As I saw other butches identifying as male or female, I figured I should use a qualifier too - since neither male or female fit comfortably. But you know what - I am butch, plain and simple. I get that for some butches either male or female resonates - but for me I'm just a good old butch.

You also make a really good point about women in general being masculine, regardless of sexual orientation. My mom, who as far as I know is straight, looks pretty masculine. She doesn't attempt to embrace femininity or masculinity, she is just herself, which happens to be an individual with a nice blend of masculine and feminine. I bet if you asked her if she identified as masculine or feminine, she'd say neither. She expresses what I would call her innate masculinity without any conscious effort. If I had to identify her I'd say masculine straight female, (although, to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the 'straight' part isn't accurate).

Finally, I'm glad that you mention that female-identified butch is a little redundant too. At least as I understand the terms. Because I use male and female to signify physical sex, for me it feels unnecessary to point out that I am physically female. Now, I've never mentioned this before because I didn't want to come across as invalidating those who do embrace female-identified butch, but for me, butch is sufficient.

I asked my Teenage Daughter
 

She uses the words butch and femme still. The community is not one she was exposed to as a young child. She uses terms for multiple genders, as the person IDed or not. The main thing I have been influenced by my daughter, son, and their circle of friends in several schools now. The youth are leaning a little away from terms like lesbian in exchange for queer. There are a large amount of bisexuals in this generation, in this area specifically.

I asked what she thought about it all and she said that her generation was raised differently. More open minded and less discrimination influenced them to be more accpeting, less needing to be classified as they identified their genders and sexual prefences. I see them struggle less and she answers isn't that what your generation wanted, to change things? They stereotype less than we adults "what" different sexual acts are prefered by whom.

SO I think Yeah... Isn't that what everyone was fighting for? A generation like the one I see blossoming in my rural area?

And they haven't tossed aside our ID's just because some of them think the word queer is good enough til you start dating and talk about the rest. TMI they say and ya know... I do like the word queer and how inclusive it feels to me personally.

I don't understand why people find it necessary to intellectualize their ids...I think some confusion at least for me (seems others too) is trying to understand: are people are coming from definition of sexual preference or personal id?

I have been around a lot of years. I id as 'stone femme'. This is my sexual preference. I am sexually attracted to stone butches...I am 'not' a no touch femme. I love 'no touch' butches. The guys that I date, love and partner with already understand where I am coming from.

Now...I am gonna age myself...when I came out...there were dykes and the woman who loved them and lesbians. The thing I realized early on ...I don't relate to 'female on female sex' - this is what lesbian means to me. So if I am talking, to a butch with a possible connection I will let them know 'I am not a lesbian'. The other thing that bugs me about the word lesbian is that it has been and is still used in negative context by hetros.

So maybe some of you consider me 'aniquated' but I have a clear ID and it works for me ;).

I'm cross posting this from "The Re-Definition of Modern Butch" thread because I think it ties in here too:

Again, I can't see butch or femme becoming completely outdated, but... I can see us perpetuating the stereotypes and policing to the point that butch/femme wouldn't feel like a comfortable fit to many peeps. The subtle (and often blatant) up-holding of unrealistic ideals of butch and femme permeate the spaces around B-F and can make the perimeter appear minuscule and confining.

The vein of "real/more/better/high/true - us/them" that pervades the forums isn't any more welcoming and imo, it steals the true lifes blood of diversity and pushes a narrow standard of B-F that even the vast majority reading this wouldn't come close to living up to.

I've seen many B-F people wander into B-F spaces looking and log out permanently, they don't feel what they read... they don't fit the stereotypes, (or perhaps they just don't get the mind numbing "what's the most un-butch/femme thing you do". - jokes. *insert sarcastic look*).

Again, my thoughts are NOT about changing butch/femme... but changing the way we think and opening our minds to the diverse culture we already are and acknowledging this to become more inclusive.

I think it's more significant then ever that we check ourselves, before the age of the internet we didn't have the ability to leave such cut definitions... what we're writing, allowing and most importantly leaving unchallenged IS becoming our recorded legacy.

*actually a lot more fun in real life*
Metro

To each their own as far as how you id and who you are attracted to. However, I'm a stone butch. I am a lesbian. I don't understand where people get these narrow ideas about lesbians or lesbian sex. The fact that some heterosexuals may use the word lesbian in a derogatory way certainly doesn't stop me from being proud to be a lesbian.

That IS one example of what homophobia is about. Many queers have internalized homophobia. I had it myself when I was growing up, briefly! We were conditioned to feel badly about ourselves - for a multitude of reasons: "unnatural is it", for religious beliefs, etc... (Thus this gets projected from us onto others as well.) This is one thing that really is sad to me - the hate that comes from our own community, and the pain of denial. This is one of the MAIN reasons why I proudly use the term lesbian. I have nothing but pride for myself, my orientation, my lifestyle, my choice for loving another. I've come too far and have been through too much for me to change for someone/ANYONE else. Uh, uh. It ain't gonna happen. And any partner I may be with will feel just as strongly about this, in love and support - or we would be on two entirely different pages. And I don't believe as capable, thus... of fully being our best together then. (Just my wooden nickels worth there!)

And I respect that others need different types of compatibility and understanding, for what best compliments their "togetherness" and growth as a couple (or poly, etc...) I really do believe there is someone for everyone... and thank goodness we are not all "clones" of each other. And the times "change". Yes. They must. But, much will remain the same too. That's just the way it is. For we will keep what it is we want...

Otherwise, I'm fine with all self definitions and the new descriptors, ID's, whatever - in fact mine has changed throughout time as well. I would just hope that folks do things for the right reasons. And that respect is maintained... Some of this discussion has been truly mind boggling indeed, but it's showing what apparently needs to be shown. If you're saying something is yucky, for example - I'd check that out, and think before submitting. Love is a sensitive thing for many of us.

For the record, there is nothing MORE beautiful to ME than the scent and the taste of a woman. Hope that doesn't gross anyone out. How could I possibly apologize for that - on a site called Butch/Femme Planet? I realize it is a bit personal [for me] to post that, but I am proud of this as well. I think it is a very lovely part of my attraction and love for women. Actually, it makes me crazy insane filled with the most powerful sense of longing that I have EVER FELT! So, that is that. For me. And I'm sure a few others... possibly might be able to relate to this.

May we continue to move on in forward progress. So many thanks to some wonderful posts here and to the moderation.

Sincerely -
WILDCAT

*Who truly hopes everyone did have a wonderful F'n holiday. Honest. (f)

thank you for this
 

I apologize, I have not read the last few pages, so if I am being redundant, just ignore me.

I have never on this or any other site made fun of what anyone else does in bed nor said it is gross, or disgusting. It freaks me out when people I consider friends think it is OK to say how I and other Lesbians have sex is disgusting.

I get that people some of you may have slept with might have said to you things that hurt, but it was not ME.

This is not a war where if someone kills a Palestinian, then the Palestinians feel the need to kill an Israeli and vice versa. This is, or should be, friends treating each other with respect.

Again, my apologies to the mods if I am repeating what has already been decided. Had to get it out of my system.

Yeah, that is kinda old news here now Apocalipstic. (Just kiddin' ya!)

I was only posting this last time, about folks being sensitive before submitting because of this kind of thing - sure, and just gave the "example" I did. However, I was coming back primarily after reading that someone stated that they didn't like the word lesbian because heterosexuals use it so negatively. So, that was pointed out earlier in this thread, about "homophobia". I thought it was overlooked a bit then. I felt that was a good example to reiterate now again. We do things sometimes without even knowing it. Not that this is what the topic is all about here, no - of course not.

I think the bush has been beat here for now though. (No pun intended!! OK, maybe!!)

Choices for "terms" used are just that. I am proud of my choices right now. They will not fit everyone like they do me.

I was clearly hurt the other day, seeing how this thread was going. I stated as much. I'm glad folks moved through things otherwise. Grateful I am, actually. I really appreciate some wonderful and thoughtful - as well as very supportive posts. Proves we "can" move forward... yes?
__

So, how were YOUR holidays? I really get stressed out at family gatherings. And then to some of us, THIS is our family - can you just imagine! (I'm in a humorous mood here, thank goodness!! Please, do NOT be alarmed.)

Peace now! Be proud of who and what you are. We all should. I just wish for some consideration regarding some of these sensitive topics on a butch/femme site. I would never write about two males together and say anything negative either, or a heterosexual couple - any dynamic of folks together. Love is love. Sexual attraction is that... And we have a very interesting and diverse population here. There are no hard and fast "anything"...

So, I don't need to keep saying that I am fine with everyone else's self-perception or ID, or what-ever the heck. I'm just going to be sure mine is respected, well - I will keep trying anyway, should the need come up.

SMILE!

Have a great day.

WILDCAT

*Sorry for errors and hope this makes sense. I am sleep "mixed up" right now.

I am a wreck after the holidays too and soooo glad its almost over!

I really was not jumping off your fabulous post! Just saying what I had percolating (sp?) for days. :)

I agree completely love is love and I am so glad there is so much of it here! love, love loveeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

I hope you get caught up on your rest and over the holidays quickly!

:)

Jen

I'm so confused by this post....truly confused.

You are not a 'no touch' femme and you only date 'no touch' butches??? How does that work?

What is 'female on female sex'? What is 'lesbian sex'?

If lesbian is defined entirely by sex act(s), is that not just a way to reduce lesbians to only a sex act? I mean that's what the het world does to all us queers..........we are defined by sexual act(s) only..........even though every sexual proclivity you can think of is done (can be done) by most folks regardless of gender identity or biological sex.

I know I am far more than my sexual and erotic proclivities .....and those proclivities are very fluid and always dependent on the dynamic between me and the femme I am with.....

What if we didn't analyze each others ID's?

I've tried to figure out what people mean by "lesbian sex" and address it here (in other posts) several times.... good luck.

Metro
*who's pretty damn sure lesbians all have different likes and dislikes in the bedroom just like everybody else*
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