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I think we value individualism (with lack of accountability) over community far too much. It is all well in good to have freedom of expression to identify in way(s) that we feel suit us. However, the isms we face are value and institutionally based. The strength of feminism is the critique and deconstruction of these values and structural inequities. I am not sure some of the gender theories that seem to be in vogue now speak to this.
I can't stand being talked down to by men. I can't stand it when men take up too much space. I can't stand when men feel all knowing about women's experiences. This is what I face as a woman out in the world. I also feel that I face it here at times. I believe in listening to our youth, but I also believe in respecting one's elders and that years and years of life experience do account for something- particularly when it comes to being part of specific communities and social circles. When this happens to me in this community and I voice these frustrations I am charged with being transphobic and/or anti-youth. Where is the accountability for being a male in a predominantly female community? I take transmen seriously as men. I speak out time and time again against transphobia. When I do that I am praised and get lots of reps. When I speak out as a lesbian or butch woman the response is much more mixed or non existent. I went to bed last night feeling that it isn't possible for me to speak as a butch woman without being accused of being transphobic and/or racist and not being willing to be part of the "big tent." I feel the message over and over again is that I must accommodate and be subsumed under the big tent all for a greater cause. My identity is no more important than any other, but I feel at times that we asked to sacrifice far more for the "greater good." It leaves me feeling frustrated and empty. Perhaps the solution, as some have said, is to get away from identity and back to values. It's just that I already feel I am being redefined on others' terms and being asked to go quietly into the night. Today I woke up feeling a bit better, so who knows. |
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It doesn't because it gives cover to some rather misogynistic behavior coming from within the queer community that would never be tolerated if it were coming from a cisgendered heterosexual men from outside of the community. Never. If we would call for the head of a cisgendered man should he behave in manner X then we cannot make any argument that lets a transgendered man off the hook for the same behavior. I've always felt that true in my bones but one day I had an epiphany that told me I needed to be vigilant because the 'identity = victim and victim = blameless' equation led me to this. It was the 2008 election, near the end-game and I made an off-hand comment about 'crackers'. My wife, who is white, turned on me and said "really? Crackers? Really?" And in that moment I realized what I had done wrong. I used a racial slur. I spoke *as a racist would speak*. If my wife could not use racial slurs, then neither could I. I did not earn the right to use racial slurs because my parents couldn't vote until they were forty-five. I could not justify using racial slurs for the years ancestors of mine were held in bondage. I had no excuse. I apologized, she forgave me but I held myself accountable for that. Since then, I hope that I have never again used a slur like cracker. I don't believe that I have. I'm not holding myself up as a paragon of accountability but I offer that anecdote as an example of consistency even when it is hard. ESPECIALLY when it is hard. It would have been easier to mumble some words about how, as a black woman, I can't be racist because I don't have power but neither my wife or I would really believe that. We would both be engaging in an illusion. If I would ask for the head of any white person who used the 'n-word' in my presence, then I have no business calling people crackers (unless I am using it in the old-school sense that hackers would use to separate themselves from those who hacked for crime as opposed to those who hacked for curiosity). :) THAT ethic I can defend and I can do so robustly because I'm perfectly happy to have that rule applied universally--I won't use racial slur X, if you don't use racial slur Y because using racial slurs is wrong. Wrong for you, wrong for me, wrong for people not yet born. How much of the ethics of our community can stand under its own weight? Can "I'm a <fill in list of oppressed group membership here> and therefore I should be held to a lighter standard than others" stand on its own? No, it can't. The incidents that several women have shared with us--uncomfortable as that must have been and I thank you, sisters, for doing so--show the *inherent* weakness of the dominant ideology of the queer community of the last two decades. That ideology is if you are oppressed you are a victim and if you are a victim, you are *incapable* of moral blemish. It falls apart under the weight of a person with a penis whipping it out in a women's play space and making all the other women there uncomfortable. It breeds resentment and, quite honestly, makes it harder on women like Cheryl's friend A or myself because WE are seen in that same light. The trans-woman in Cheryl's anecdote should have been escorted out. It would have been ideal if some older (meaning been on the path longer) transwoman should have, forgive the term, boxed that woman's ears (metaphorically of course) and said "what the HELL were you thinking?! You are invited in, you are given a seat in the room and then you piss all over the carpet? What the hell kind of woman are you trying to be?" At that point, it's on the woman who took the action to ask herself "was that feminist?" or "can I defend that same action if I were a cisgendered woman?" But we haven't given her a language to ask those questions in and we have, even worse, told her that for anyone--ANYONE--to raise the issue is for her to be victimized. The women in that space, who were *also* victimized, were lost in the shuffle. That is how they are paid for being open, inclusive and welcoming? Does anyone here think the organizers would be willing to be so open the next time? I don't. They would be entirely within their rights to NOT be welcoming. Again, that is not about a transgendered woman being in a lesbian play space. It is about a transgendered woman behaving in a manner indicative of her not having sufficiently questioned the ways in which male privilege operates. The only OTHER reading is that the person DID question, came up with the answer that was comfortable for them which was that they would be damned if they were giving it up. Ignorance or not giving a damn, take your pick but those are pretty much the only ways that situation came to pass. Neither one is pretty and neither one recommends the dominant ideology that has held the queer community in thrall almost all the days I've been out. Cheers Aj |
Does anyone with better forum skills than I want to do me a solid and link the "Rethinking Queer Community" thread here to redirect traffic?
I'm busy standing in the road waving my pride flag like a fool and overflowing with loving thoughts for all of you. :) :LGBTQFlag: |
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We need to let of the notion that every single event or grouping has to be for everyone all the time. Maybe the key is in understanding that sometimes it’s not just about shared identity but shared paths or experiences. Being a woman-identified person who was born into a female body is a different experience than being a woman-identified person who was born into a male body. They are different paths to womanhood and each comes with its own (sometimes overlapping and sometimes not) set of challenges and wounds and triumphs. I don’t think it’s hard for most people to see how transwomen (in this example) might in some circumstances want and need space that is exclusive to those who have that shared experience and path. But it’s a harder leap for some to make that it would be reasonable and valid for the other group of women (for which there is no specific name that I am aware of that neither casts them in an oppressor role nor is offensive to transwomen – but I may just be behind on the lingo) to want and need the same. This is the failure point. This is where the standard conceptual model we use around autonomous organizing breaks down and doesn’t quite fit the situation. In our standard model, there is a marginalized or oppressed group that exists within a larger group, e.g. lesbians of color in a lesbian organization and then there is the dominant group, e.g. white lesbians. It’s pretty clear in a situation like this when and how autonomous organizing should work. I think the problem stems from trying to apply this exact model to groups of women; it doesn’t quite work. Yes, the cis/trans axis of marginalization exists and is a factor. But it doesn’t negate sexism. The women-who-must-not-be-named still face, in our society, mountains of shit specifically around being women. And the mountains of shit may sometimes be the same or similar as those faced by transwomen but sometimes they will be very different. <<disallowed word>>It is also not unreasonable to think that during the portion of their lives that transwomen were seen as male they absorbed some of the messages of male privilege. There are incredibly powerful and pervasive forces that are brought to bear upon us all from birth, basically. It would be naïve to think they don’t have an impact. So maybe instead of using that conceptual model of autonomous organizing, we need to use a different one. I know the analogy I’m about to use is profoundly imperfect, it doesn’t fit exactly, and I know that even making these kinds of analogies is tricky at best. It’s simply meant to present a different frame of reference than the one that is typically used in this situation. <<disallowed word>>But what it brings to mind are times when I have seen, within PoC groups, organizing that coalesces around specific racial groups. Because although these groups are all affected by racism, their experiences are different. Being African American is not the same as being Asian American and neither of them is the same as being Native American. As I said, it’s not a perfect analogy. But my thought is that if we approach these situations differently than we have been, if we can agree that the model we have been trying to use doesn’t fit, then maybe we can see our way clear to occasions of autonomous organizing that don’t feel oppressive or erasing, that don’t rely on policing identity, and that do feel supportive and respectful of our different experiences and paths. |
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In my 20's I had the very good fortune of knowing long term, butch femme couples in their 40's and 50's who I very much looked up to. They had what I wanted and I paid attention. The Butch's were never sexist ( or frat boyish) in their behaviour and always treated their femme partners with respect. Fast forward to online things that I have witnessed. Butch's, Tg's ,Ftm's (and other id's I may have left out) behaving badly and being excused ,coddled and many times encouraged by femme's to continue their sexist behaviour. I remember seeing a post recently by an Ftm who denied having any male privilege and wonder how that computes in their mind. I chose to go off on my grumbly way and think about it rather than try to respond. Sometimes it's exhausting to get involved in any of these gender community conversations. Accountability can also be exhausting on a daily basis and maybe that's why some people choose to not delve too deeply.. I work with a transman who shared with me that the hr woman at work reported him for touching her in a way that made her feel uncomfortable. He is a touchy guy and touched me prematurely as far as chums go too, so she may very well have had a valid complaint that was not a personal beef at all about him being a transman.(but a man rubbing her shoulder and neck, much like he did mine) If you are seen as male there is a lot of accountability that needs to go with that in this world. Again, I thank you for your post ,AJ. Off to work on my own fixer upper and try to make it feel like mine again. |
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June, I have spent the better part of 2 hours trying to figure out why this post bothered me so much. I think I have it now tho I am not sure I can get my point across here. You came into a discussion where folks are trying to, little by little, speak to the things which are problematic for us. And, it does have to be done little by little cuz we go forward a step and then have to address our right to have feelings and experiences and why we need to speak to them again and again and again. It bothered me to see a post where you readily admit this isnt a problem for you, the abstract works in your reality, you have had both good and bad experiences with women in different capacities, and only apparently good ones with men "who were raised with a more evolved social consciousness." I dont know what your intent was here but to me, this said, I am dismissing the concerns others have raised because it isnt my reality. I have a hard time believing if a POC or a transperson came into a thread talking about difficult experiences they were encountering, that the response would be - well that isnt my experience. My experience is x,y,z and as a matter of fact I have had awesome experiences with white people who "were raised with a more evolved social consciousness". Can you really picture yourself saying that to a POC? Do you really believe saying this to a POC is going to make them feel heard, understood, validated, and as an accepted member of this diverse community? If you wouldnt do this to a POC, why is it ok to do it to other women and lesbians? What message do you think this sends versus the message you meant to send? Or maybe this was the message you meant to send. And after you got finished with telling us of your experiences and what works for you, and how you expect is should or could work for everyone else, THEN you ask questions? Felt to me like you were already saying , 'I have told you I am not buying this but I will give you the opportunity to convince me'. That really stung. Again, I doubt this is the approach that would be taken if it was a POC or a transperson. But, it is the approach you chose to take with women and lesbians. You are asking good questions tho. We have begun to answer exactly what you asked. You hearing it or being open to hear it, is another matter altogether. In another thread, the question was asked why is it when a woman says something, it will go unnoticed. But if a man comes along and says the exact same thing, there is a totally different response? Something to think about. And I believe the person who asked was Aj. |
Per ScandalAndy request
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June, I wish I could respond to you. But your attitude, your anger, your rudeness made it difficult for me to read more than a line or 2 of your response. I do not wish to waste my energy trying to respond to a continuous litany of yeah but, yeah but, yeah but. Should you wish to have a different type of dialogue, I am always happy to discuss it with you. You know where to find me. :) |
wow........
a butch lesbian telling a femme lesbian she is angry rude and has an attitude...because her feminine lesbian experience is different from said butch's lesbian experience.....talks about that femme as if she is not a lesbian and questions her intent???? just wow |
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June, With all due respect, to me, your response is bullshit. I didnt come at you. You wrote something I found offensive and I told you how it made me feel, what it represented to me, and why I felt that way. That is being honest, above board, and straightforward. And, it was done, I think, without taking personal pot shots at you, June, the person. And, now you apparently have the need to add a bunch of value judgements and assumptions to it in a pretty personally insulting way as to what I said or meant. That is your right to do so. But, lets not confuse what I said and how I said it with your current level of defensiveness because you didnt care for what I said or how what you did made me feel. If you want to understand what people here have been trying to discuss and why, it requires listening. If you want to genuinely understand, I am happy to answer your questions. I will not, however, be drawn into an unhealthy and counterproductive interaction with you. That is not communicating or having a dialogue. That is a sparring match. You seem to think you have a great deal of "insight" into other people's behavior. Maybe you do, maybe you dont. But, to me, it would be helpful to perhaps putting a little more energy into looking at your own behavior. If I was rude and disrespectful to you, your response would be understandable. I was neither. |
This is going to sound naive, and for that i apologize but...
Why are we fighting? I get that Kobi and June's ways of interpreting and assimilating the world around them are very different. I am really confused. I tend to function much like June does where I do not want to establish my identity by destroying anyone else's. Sometimes that makes me come across as a bit "la-dee-da, let's accept everone" and flighty in my worldview. I also understand how that could be a little off-putting to Kobi, since her process is different and progresses using small steps with regular self-examination and settling into a new routine of thinking. (Kobi, please let me know if i misinterpreted, I promise i mean no offense by this, i'm just trying to make sure i understand) I think both these approaches are valid and I like to use some of each when tackling new things that I must adjust to. Aren't we all working towards the mutual goal of sharing our own personal experiences and reinforcing our pride and support of each other? I think there is common ground here and I hope we can all find it. The tension and hurt and anger here is somewhat frightening to me since it seems to have exploded out like it's been bubbling under the surface for a while. I hope you all can help me understand why we are reacting with anger. That seems like it would push us further apart in the end... |
Kobi and June -
You need to take this line of conversation private. This is not the Red Zone, unless you think this discussion needs to be moved there. ETA: Clarifying that I mean the personal stuff and not the actual constructive part. Thanks, Admin |
I'm personally feeling slightly stupid. I thought Michigan festival changed it's stance and let transwomen in. No? ah. ok. I'd kind of feel weird about attending a women's festival that doesn't include all women.
There's a place in wales called Women's Land. Only females are allowed - no male children or dogs - are allowed. I do know the history of how the place got started as I know one of the women who was part of it and left it and frankly, I'm disgusted at how atrocious those women acted to one another, but that's a different story, I'm just not convinced a place that's "all xx females, all the time" is going to be safe by default. That's not exactly been my experience. I do know some women who live there - I actually do think those gals need a seperate space as I really don't think they are able to cope with outside life and I'm glad they have a place to be. However, I won't ever visit them on Women's Land because - to be blunt - I think the vibe there is fucking nuts. I don't find it safe in ANY way shape or form. I personally have been raped by a hella lot of men. But I've also been publicly mauled by women, trans and all other rainbow people of every flavour. No matter what the sex or gender, it's been seen as perfectly ok to grab my tits, slap my tits, pinch my ass, pat my cunt through my skirt, pinch my upper thighs, etc. So, due to my experince, before assuming ANY space is safe enough to express ANY sexuality (sexy dressing, nudity, play etc) I'm going to assess it in a covered and protective manner. One of things that has really upset me since going gay-er is nocticing how piggish I get treated by queers (and that includes ALL genders). I have had to re-asses the concept of "safety." There's a point in there somewhere, but it's probably personal. |
If I had a dollar for every time someone molested my chest without so much as speaking to me, let alone going so far as ASKING, I'd be a rich woman indeed. Gay men think it's perfectly fine to squeeze my breasts, and i've been motorboated by women I've never met.
I concur that there is quite a bit of boundary crossing in the queer community. It makes me uncomfortable, but I'm not really sure how to deal with it as the last time I slapped a gay man's hand away he asked me why I was being such a bitch. Thank you for your post. I didn't think i was being unreasonable, but there was some self doubt there. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who has issues navigating "safe" space of any kind. Quote:
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Of course women can be shitty and oppressive. Women are human.
But that can obscure the fact that as a group men commit the bulk of both public and private violence and oppression. The vast bulk. Men hold the institutional power (like white folks do) and that changes the game when it comes to enacting oppression. I too am the mother of a son. He's a decent, thoughtful, respectful young man. I work with numerous feminist male allies. One of the things that makes them allies is that they know they carry male privilege. Without that awareness, they cannot be allies. As for safe space -- I've learned over the years that it's not created simply by filling it with those who are alike in terms of identity or even experience. That creates a superficial kind of safety. It takes enormous effort to create a safe accountable space. The fact that safe space doesn't always work is really about the trauma of oppression. It is very easy and common for the oppressed to become oppressive. Those in the space must be accountable for their actions and the way they share the space. That's largely the topic in Aj's new thread about community. Heart |
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S.Andy - fuckin eh. I once grabbed a butch by the scruff and twisted her collar tight and rammed her into a wall for slapping my tits. She yelled "watch the shirt! I paid a lot of money for it!" my response was "and I paid a lot of money for my tits." I wanted to rip her lungs out. That wasn't over-reacting as far as I'm concerned. It took me a long time to understand I had the right to physically correct people who physically grabbed me without asking. Gender, nor gender presentation seems to make a difference in group space with how much I get grabbed if I'm wearing a low top or a tight skirt. sulky fag who asked what your problem knew exactly what was wrong. Next time grab his balls and use a vice grip. |
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