Genuinely not trying to be confrontational but I'm not sure that this post rests comfortably with me i.e. maybe not intentional but my reading of it is that being "done to" is an element of being a "girly femme" and "doing to" is something of a polar opposite.


Also, whether someone is "done to" or "doing to" in the bedroom, why does that necessarily indicate a lack of equality in the bedroom ..... surely, if it's what both parties want, it is as equal in the bedroom as sharing equally in the relationship outside of the bedroom.

butch/butch curious
 

I'm enjoying reading this thread, thanks to everyone for your thoughts. Most of my experience has been dating femmes but lately I have been finding myself thinking about/noticing butches. The community I live in is very femme/butch only. I like that people are talking about this, makes me feel a little less strange for my thoughts.:hangloose:

Ciaran, I am not taking your post as confrontational in the least bit. Maybe I was too specific.

I think we do not understand each other. No problems with that.

Hope no one gets offended that historically, I don't get involved in going back and forth trying to provide better explanations. Some understand, some won't. Ciaran, hope you are good with that ... best I can do.

Happy Saturday to You! :)

Brock and others

I get your analogy however may I point out that the "doing to" or not has nothing to do with being butch in my experience. I have been with plenty of butch/trans men and boi/ys that do not do to me it does not make them less butch or less masculine. Neither does the fact that I "do to them" just makes them not stone. Just as there are many different types of lovely femmes out there are just as many sexy butches and trans* that fall some where in the spectrum. It is about their masculinity and our connection for me. Just as it is with femmes...Hence why I am queer...gotta love the grays in life sometimes...
Just my experience.

Welcome to the site qtwithguitar and never feel strange for your thoughts..there is enough of that out there without us doing it to our self....besides how do you know what you like if you don't listen to yourself no matter what everyone else says. During my youth and the area I lived in butch/femme and transmen relationships rarely existed but that dosen't mean I turn away all femmes or other masculine energy. If I did I would not have had the experience I have had nor would I know myself as well as I do. However I will admit of all the dynamic masculine on masculine doesn't receive enough postive attention in my opinion.

This bears repeating
 

It also supports my argument against labels....trust me you would be hard pressed to fit me into a box but I have a valid place in the community as well...do I not?

Boys will be boys
 

Great Thread.

For me, I have always been been physically/mentally attracted to all of the masculine characteristics of Butch/boi/boy's & Transmen. I never sought out feminine women (for relationships) because my heart was never there. I always say that I adore femmes, I just don't sleep with them.

I came out as lesbian when I was 13 yrs old, and was lucky enough to be in an environment where I could evolve into the boy I now ID as today. I would go so far as to say that I have always felt like more of a fag than anything. I stay positive and grounded enough in who I am that it makes it easier for me to JUST BE.

It's hard to be minority within a minority. It's bad enough when you're not accepted as a whole, but to be an outcast among your own peers leaves a lot of room for my own self acceptance and understanding.

That being said.

The dynamic for me is intense. My ache for all things boy is worn on my sleeve. It's the bond, the understanding, the completeness I feel as an entire person when I am loving and loved by someone who is just like me.

So. Yes. I am.

I'm fine with identities but putting restrictions on them is what pisses me off. Here is some actual quotes I heard from people in the LGBT community-

"Hy can't be a submissive butch, that means he must be a boi"
"All Butches date femmes and vice versa"
"You can be a b-o-i boi not a boy"
"If you don't ID as a boi why is that in your screen name" (LOL WTF?)

Others need to not limit identities. Your id is YOURS. So what if you break a few "rules" of your id. I choose how I identify, its bot a box someone else puts me in.

Long live the logic!

Love it, and not just because I agree.

apology to Ciaran
 

Finally getting back to you. Started to last night but dinner put it to the back of the queue.

Ciaran, yesterday morning I was in a hurry to leave the house. I owe you the apology for not correctly reading your initial post to my initial post.

Yes, of course there is total equality in the bedroom (as well as outside it) in regards to how I was describing my particular desires but I left out that part. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Otherwise, I would not have caught it.

Please key in on the two words "the ones" where I stated I am attracted to the girly femmes, "the ones" who only enjoy being done to. There are lots and lots of girly femmes who enjoy something different than what I am describing.

Lastly, being "done to" or "doing to" is not something that is defined as masculine or feminine. At least not to me. I have heard that lingo and have used it for years and years. It has served me in providing a shorthand method to describe ... that is all.

I came back to apologize to Ciaran, correct myself and not for the purpose of making myself appear more agreeable to site members.

bumping
 

Partly to bump this thing again...

This friend of mine used to be a councilmen, and we've been hanging out and exchanging music (he's a musician) anyway, on top of motivating him to want to change the florida law on being able to change your license to whatever gender you feel is yours, he also became as miserably aware as I am that there is no butch on butch stories, porn, pictures, freakin nothing out there.

He has made a movie before, just a documentary about this lady that helped found a college and put together an orchestra, so he has movie making experience. He was thinking about making a butch on butch movie/love story. Damn that would be so awesome.

If you know any butch/butch movies, let me know because I can't find anything.

Take care,
-psykbutch

The idea of being a minority in the queer community makes me smile. Being attracted to someone so much like me is not frowned upon. Meeting a fellow butch that gets my choice of clothes, ultra short hair, and refusal to conform to society's rules can't be impossible. They wink when they see me pass them on the sidewalk. Been told good luck with that quest. It's my destiny, not luck.

<3
 

Bumping for the LOVE of the masculine exchange between butches/boys/boi's/Ftm's

Thinking about this...
 

Why not?

Who anyone decides to partner up with - for a night or a lifetime - is their business. If one butch finds another attractive (and vice versa) I say follow the bliss.

To quote the Pope "Who am I to judge?"

So sayeth this femme chica...

Has it become a minority? in the 90's it was more the norm in my experience where I was, than butch-femme was from vancouver to seattle. And in Toronto - they didn't call it Bois town for nuthin!

I see a fair amount of it to my eyes but I have no idea how the people in the couples ID. I do know there's a couple butch-butch sites but I don't know if they are still up and going. I know sprrread - the first queer porn site all done by amerature (hot) had a ton of butch-butch in it and a few of the queer indie porns that came out in the early naughties (2000) had a fair chunk of butch-butch in them.

It does depend on your local demographic though...

Sometimes I'm really surprised that the online gay community can be so uncompromising and unforgiving and narrow minded about some things. (not necessarily right now, or in this moment, but in general) I consider myself to be Butch with some very masculine leanings, however, I've never felt inclined to adopt male pronouns.

I have taken butch lovers in the past and never felt strange about it, in fact, I remember it as being very natural and comforting, and above all, there was more than love, there was also camaraderie. An instinctual sharing and pairing of ..what? the soul? the intellect? something. I loved identifying with someone on so many levels and thinking about how hot they looked in my shirt or wearing my jacket.

I have taken femme lovers in the past and never felt strange about it either, in fact, in many ways, it was like falling into a "norm" of sorts. You know, of how things are "supposed to be". An expected pairing like "mom and dad". I don't have a preference towards butch and femme as a dynamic anymore than I have a preference for butch on butch.

I've never been femme enough to be able to examine a femme on femme relationship. I'm relieved about that in a way that only a butch could understand.

I'm fine with saying I'm a mother and have children. I'm currently married to a woman who refuses to accept labels and titles and expectations of how she should act/react/interact. I love that about her. It doesn't threaten my own perceptions of who/what I am. I love that we are exclusive in our relationship and that it could take until the end of time to discover everything we want to know about each other.

back when I lived in Austin, it seemed like most of the butches I lusted after were more into other butches than femmes.

Yes, absolutely yes. I am forever amazed by those who say that butch on butch is disgusting or wrong. Really? Who is anyone to judge what another feels or desires? Since when has anyone have the right to judge another about anything?

The butch/femme dynamic is easy to understand I think because someone is the more masculine and that is something that is the "norm". We are comfortable with the "norm" and God forbid anyone should deviate from that. (Chuckles) It is when we deviate from what is comfortable that we have to examine it more closely and open our minds to the possibilty that while we cannot understand it, we might at the very least be willing to accept it.

I do not wish to preach to the choir but I will say this. The dynamic between two butch personalities (for sake of arguement) is strong. It is real. It is powerful. It can bring both to their knees, literally and figuratively. The connection between two butches cannot be denied. It is an amazing thing. Just as amazing as two heterosexuals, two femmes, butch/femme and anything in between. A relationship where two people are committed to one another should be sacred and supported. Not nit-picked because it doesn't fit into a nice neat box with a pretty bow on it.

I understand the looks... the eye rolling.. the head shaking because two butches just don't fit that "norm"... and I know many do not want to be "normal"... many would just others to accept what "is". Don't analyze it. Don't pick it apart. Just let it be. I am not saying everyone who is not in a butch/butch relationship feels this way. But I have seen it first hand.

Wonderful Your Sir is proud. *Smiles.... AND sometimes no one understands a boy/boi/babybutch BETTER than a Butch.