|
Quote:
I DO DO DO believe there is a HUGGGGGGEE difference btwn transgendered and transsexed which very very often get all lumped into one category making for an enormously confusing conversation. Totally Agreed, Dylan |
Quote:
|
I would like to add that this whole monitoring of who is/who isn't 'butch'/'femme' whatnot (i.e. butch-femme is a woman-only club) leads to the monitoring of 'who is/who isn't butch/femme ENOUGH' which drives all of us crazy.
Once we start saying, "Well, SoAndSo isn't *reallllllly* butch/femme, because A, B, C" that leads to "SoAndSo isn't butch/femme *enough*, because of A, B, C" It leads to hierarchies of butch/femme and definitions of butch/femme by OTHERS instead of individual flavors of butch/femme. I Hope That Makes As Much Sense Outside Of My Head As It Does Inside My Head, Dylan |
Quote:
Today is a different perspective for me then the 40s and 50s. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
just saying. ;) |
Quote:
do you disagree that because i look like a man, i'm assumed to be one...complete with shared socialization and experiences as other bio-men understand them? i am 7 years or so into transition. i've been on T that long. i am still pre-op, so still female bodied. are you assuming that i've forgotten the disparity between my physicality and my interior life? the shower is a very different scenario for me than going to work or the grocery store. a point that i didn't make (and perhaps should have been clearer on) is that people are generally lazy in their identification of others. if it looks like a man, then it must be one. before i started T, i passed part of the time as male. once the secondary sex traits kicked in, it was way more often than that. finally, once i picked up on social cues and what i was "expected" to do, it got to be full time. i do understand the frustration of feeling one way and looking another. that's why i undertook the great mindfuck that is transitioning. i don't expect that everyone's experience is the same. i think that was an assumption on your part. i have been in the pre-transition position, the beginning of transition position, and now in the midst of it. please don't assume that i've forgotten any step of this long process...it is indelibly etched upon my soul. i remember the places and the people i've been before today. |
Quote:
It's seems really distasteful to me to try to stretch butch out beyond recognition, downgrade butch identity here to having such generic blahzay definition. You know, I don't know if you identify as butch anymore, nor do I care, but I do... and it the context of this community it has meaning, very specific history and we have more connection to each other and more value in all of that than to bust it to almost nothing. Just think that's especially crazy in a thread that's about not defining others and respecting identities. *not some straight butch looking lady down the street* Metropolis |
Here's One Look At 1950s Butch Femme culture.
http://www.mariecartier.com/content/BF.pdf There's nothing here to indicate any of these people took on traditional male and female roles- in fact quite the opposite. This is a history of women- yes I said women. Women who laid their lives and bodies on the line. As apretty said, many femmes back then had to work as prostitutes to support themselves, their lovers and families. Butch women were repeatedly raped by cops for being butch but refused to go into hiding and looked their rapist straight in the face. These were working class people. Upper class people could have private parties in their homes. Working class people met in public places like bars and faced the wrath of the cops. This is part of my history. I'm not going to take the woman part out. I am happy to hear trans and other perspective as well, but I am not going to take the woman out of butch femme history. |
Quote:
Yes, I read you wrong. I don't disagree. Thank you for clarifying - although when I went back and read your post realized that I had misread it and it was clear how it was written. :) |
Quote:
However, not every butch...even back then...identified with 'being a woman'. To deny that there were transmen involved in that history is to deny trans history and look at butch-femme culture from a very myopic cis perspective Many many many transpeople (both mtfs and ftms) have been involved in b-f history from the beginning Dylan |
Quote:
Edit: The butches and femmes from the study I cited lived as women, they were treated as women- including having to struggle with having to find jobs (both femmes and butches) because they were women, being beaten and raped, etc because they were women. Please do not dilute this into an "identity" debate. These were real people with real lives. The fact that they were female and women had everything to do with how they walked through this world and what struggles they faced and how they were treated and how they found community and how they lived and how they loved. |
Quote:
|
So, back to Linus' question:
Quote:
How do you feel about women dating trans(sexual) males but not "biological" (EWWW, I hate typing biomale! Let's say non-trans instead, okay?) males? I mean, if you're gonna date FTMs but not date, um, Ms...doesn't that on some level indicate that you don't really fully 100% recognize your man's real sex? Or is it the fact that FTMs were at least socialised as Women earlier in life that makes it acceptable to partner with them and not non-trans guys? (Again with the reiterating that I am talking about transsexual men here, not transgendered.) |
OK, having had some time for the gazillion thoughts regarding this subject to ramble around my head, I will try to make myself more clear.
Regarding a persons personal pronoun, I will call them whatever I see them use referring to themselves and usually avoid it altogether if I am unsure. The topic was brought up regarding a specific incident to which I feel I answered to quite clearly, as I was confused by the several choices of pronouns or descriptors the person used referring to himself. Again, I apologize if he took it in any dismissive way. Regarding the use of the term trans, I used the quotes, because I see "TRANS" used referring to several different things and am never quite sure which it is when someone just says trans. Is it transsexual, transgendered, trans-spirited? I try not to assume, but obviously I am not the only one who gets confused by this catch all word. Regarding MY use of the word Butch, to my knowledge "butch" was originally one of those derogatory words given to label masculine women. Mostly it was a source of hate and disparity, and like the word "fag" or "queer", butch women reclaimed it as a source of pride and power. The word itself goes back to before "lesbians" claimed it. Further, straight women were often nicknamed "Butch" and quite frequently in a loving manner by their male counterparts who were not threatened in their own sense of masculinity. I will illustrate with photos from a grave across the street from my house. This couple was married in 1956 and Pappy is still living. http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/gall...php?photo=1780 http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/gall...php?photo=1781 As to who has a place in this community, I think we all do. My statement about MY not viewing men as "butch" is based on my experience with transsexual/ FTM's who do not identify as "butch". Again, I apologize if it was read to mean I think FTM's don't have a place here. If someone wants to call themselves a butch man, who am I to say differently? Like Wil stated earlier, I think way too often these conversations generally only exist here because in the outside/ real world, we are all way too busy dealing with life on life's terms. The hetero world ( in general) makes and passes judgement on us based on appearances or characteristics and usually I am way too busy trying to not get killed or attacked to give a fuck about defining things like "trans" or "butch" or "pronoun preference". Three days ago in a small convenience store we stopped at while trying to help someone move, a group of three people various ages and sexes were discussing me quite audibly. The store being very small and crowded, their words quite loud and hurtful, I smiled back in their faces and simply said "ya know, it might be nicer if you at least waited until you got outside before you start gossiping about someone who is in front of you". Now, I could have said nothing or I could have turned around and punched someone or I could have melted in fear or any number of responses. As a Butch woman I get this kind of shit almost every time I go into public and certainly any time I have to take a piss. When trying to figure out my own place I KNOW it would be easier for me in dealing with the world at large if I transitioned... had a beard.. wasn't a source of constant ogling and for some reason a threat to straight folks who just don't get it. I, however, am not willing at this point in my life to do that. I love my wife. She is a dyke. She fell in love with ME, all of me, both my feminine and masculine aspects and presentations. I try to call people what they wish to be called. If I read their words and descriptors and there are several to choose from, I try to reference ALL of them so I don't screw it up and ya know, sometimes I still might and will correct it as soon as it is pointed out to me. I have been living with being called he or she for so friggen long I no longer really give a shit what someone calls me. Note my personal pronoun choice. I know it is hard for some people to see me ( all live and in person) and try to guess what I am, so why should I get upset with them? To me, the meat of what a person shares with me is far more important that what gender it came from. My struggle as a queer woman is still very based in the politics of gaining equal rights. If our brothers and sisters in the LGBT community can stop fighting with each other, then perhaps we can channel that energy into the real struggle. Perhaps, we could stop focusing so much on the minutiae of "words" and focus on the reality of "US". Perhaps we can realize our allies instead of being so quick to make enemies within our ranks. Dylan, I am hoping this might help clarify some of where I am coming from. I may owe you a more personal response and please let me know if I do. The whole subject is so profound on so many levels both personally and as a member of this community that I am having a hard time dissecting it all. Edited to add: If the pictures I tried to post don't show up, they are in my gallery and I am a technical idiot. Sorry. |
Quote:
I'm merely stating that b-f culture was not then, nor is it now a 'woman only turf'. There were many many transpeople involved in butch femme history who also took beatings for being who they were too I'm also not denying that the one article you provided spoke about butch women. I read the article. Yes, it centered on butch femme folks who id'd as woman. Nor, am I denying that Nestle likes to focus on CIS women's history as applied to butch femme history That doesn't mean trans people were not part of the butch-femme history/community/activism/etc It's only a *(cis)woman's* history if One chooses to focus their attention on *(cis)women* Dylan |
Thank you Jess for your thought provoking words.
I will use you as an example. I always saw you as he. It wasnt your title or anything else just the energy I picked up on. Thats my thing. I'll never forget the day i was talking to someone we both know, Matt, and he said your "girl" name and referred to you as she. I didnt correct him but I admit it took me back and jarred me a little. I don't even now why it did as much as it did. I then remember another person we both know that gave me shit when I referred to you as He. She corrected me and said, "I am sure Jess is transgender" of course I got shit over that. I respect anyone's ID, of course, BUT I feel what I feel and if I sense that energy then I roll with it. If THEY correct me, have a problem with it then I correct it to make them more comfortable but i still feel what I feel. In my perception, this here and now, gender is not an issue but a "feeling" I have. I go with that and like I said, if I'm wrong, someone disputes then I change the words but in my heart I never change. I see it how I feel it. There are those that claim "he" and I feel "she" and it's not even about how they look but the vibes I pick up on. Again this is my thing. Lady Snow once made reference to her masculine energy and I can relate because i have this too but I'll be damn anyone call me he or boi or anything else. It's a very complicated matter and when it's all said and done it really is an individual process. How I am with you might be different then how I am with someone else. One might see She and I might see He. Honestly, IMO it really doesnt matter unless someone is feeling uncomfortable with it. |
Wait, so a person's gender and pronoun isn't so much about how THEY feel about their own gender and which pronoun they want used...but about how YOU feel about the gender/pronoun you would like to assign that person? And even if they correct you you will still think of them how you want to think of them but figure it's good enough that you try to use the pronoun they want?
Wow. |
Quote:
One poor little older lady was calling me sir at the walmart pharmacy recently and I guess caught a profile of a tit and then fell all over herslef trying to apologize and correct herself. I was like, "ma'am, it is REALLY ok, no big deal". I actually felt sad that she was so dumbfounded. So sincerely upset with her "mistake" and it pained me to see her struggle so with it. Thanks again. (f) |
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:19 PM. |
ButchFemmePlanet.com
All information copyright of BFP 2018