Lol, no. There are probably many versions of her dotted around the world. Growing up thinking the world owes them something and devoid of the ability to care for others.

Star, I'm going to gently suggest that sometimes when we find ourselves being treated in a particular way - a way that makes us feel uncomfortable because it is not in sync with who we know ourselves to truly be - well, that is a good time to step back for a moment and objectively do a self-assessment.

When I first came out, I was treated as the dumb grrl and many butches and gay men would not respect personal space boundaries. It got to the point where I literally did not feel safe going to a bar on my own, so I would bring a "chaperone" whose job it was to keep hands off of me.

Long story short, I had an incident that was the proverbial kick in the seat of the pants that forced me to take a long hard look at myself. By examining my childhood and patterns of adult relationships, I was able to identify and deal with some issues that I thought I had resolved long ago.

I was able to affirm to myself that (1) I am a strong woman and I do not *need* anyone to protect me, although what I want and desire is a different issue; and (2) I am an intelligent woman worthy of respect. Knowing this to be my fundamental truth, I began putting out an entirely different energy. To start with, I would walk into a room with my head held slightly higher and that immediately set a different tone for how I was treated.

As far as the intelligent part goes... I still sometimes get treated like a dumb grrl, but that really doesn't bother me too much anymore - mainly because I know the truth *and* I know I have the choice to walk away from the ignorance.

Anyhow, it sounds as though you may have already started a journey of self reflection, with how you spoke about your mom dressing you up a like a doll. Perhaps, instead of thinking of your clothes as your latest "costume/uniform" (which may be sending an unconscious message to others) you may want to think of yourself and your choices more authentically.

Please know this message is written with tender thoughts and hopes that tomorrow will bring you closer to a better place.

Pink

ps- I'm new to BFP, though many years ago I was on the b-f site.

I think this plays a big role in this situation. The initial post I made in a moment of supposed weakness, but I think that part of me realised that by exposing this weakness as such, in such a bluntly honest way would force me to confront other issues that may be lingering under the surface. How I feel about myself, or how I fear people will treat/perceive me as an extension of my own insecurities and how that possibly reflects back to me in the behaviour and attitude of others.


Yes, I agree. It is the fact that I am insecure within myself that I could let the opinion of another impact upon me so profoundly. I am not a dumb ditzy girl, and I do not need to participate in that cycle. I do have the choice also to walk away.

This is definitely an interesting aspect, the process/journey of uncovering what is authentic. I tend to think though that most of our identities are to varying degrees fabrication, I am not so sure I gel with concepts of the true self. Though we may engage in habits, behaviour or presentation that is more authentic to ourselves than others.

It was going down this road that led me back to expressing myself in a more feminine way again, after attempting to "lesbianise" myself which I erroneously thought would occur by wearing a more masculine costume.

When I became less rigid upon myself, and observed the style and personality that I seemed to become without "trying" as such, I would become more femme. I am still sorting through how much of this is my mothers influence and how much is "authentic."

Thank you for your contribution, and the respect towards my own possible interpretations of your thoughts.

Tale as old as time...

Imagine a small city with more straight butches than queer butches, and most of the queer butches are straight.

A brainy, fun femme meets a single butch (into femmes! no wai!) and pitches some demure woo.

Then it happens... butch begins to talk down to femme. Femme is justifiably annoyed as it has become apparent that butch is either a bit of an airhead or is somewhat insecure. Femme responds politely but with as much mannerly wit as is possible without brow-furrowing or a big eff you.

Butch throws down with something downright insulting (my best yet, in response to a comment about how Saturday nights are more about the freedom of opportunity than the pressure of obligation... "That's a bit heavy for a Saturday night... Did you go to school or something?")

Femme smiles and thanks butch for the drink, but heads around talking to friends for awhile and leaves.

*cuddles up and sighs*

Its important to understand when this dismissal occurs whether percieved or real . If it is before you are engaged in conversation, then perhaps the issue has more to do with signals being broadcast (I am happy.. i am depressed). If you go out alone, you are more likely to look unhappy as your true spirit is not on display. If its after engaging in conversation that the dismissal occurs then nothing you wear (as long as its appropriate) will trump what you say.

Like yourself I too go out in high femme. I sometimes get uncomfortable with the notion that no one else is dressed as such. Perhaps you feel a bit uncomfortable being the only one dressed high femme and this discomfort is being picked up by those you wish to attract. Sometimes I wish there were club nights exclusively designated to butch femme with dress codes so I don't feel self conscious.

I spent a lot of years escaping that great white lie. People that underestimate me- their bad. People who disrespect me on any level I don't give the time of day much less care what they think.

I dress for me. I celebrate my femininity because I want to and not to catch anyone. If someone wants me its because they value me for everything I am. Anyone who really has the privilege of really knowing me knows that I'm capable of anything. That's all that really matters to me any more.

Is it me, or are most of the answers in this thread focusing on what the OP may have done to bring ill treatment upon herself? When I read that a woman, particularly a feminine presenting woman, is being dismissed or presumed to be stupid, I understand it to mean that plain old garden variety misogyny is at work. In our society ALL women are almost always presumed to have foggier, less disciplined minds, best suited to shopping and child rearing. When women are hyper feminine they're even more likely to be burdened with those assumptions. Unfortunately, butches can be just as infuriatingly sexist as men when they encounter a display of high femininity. This discussion reminds me of how women are told that it's their responsibility to avoid sexual assault, and if they are assaulted they must have been carrying themselves in a way that invited it.

Sure, women are often socialised into presenting ourselves as less assertive and less confident. Sure, that often means that others take us less seriously. Yes, of course when we feel more confident we're treated with more respect. BUT just being a feminine woman, regardless of our intelligence or self confidence, means that many people will privilege males over us. And sometimes butches will do the same.

I can definitely relate to this. When I first came out, I tried going soft butch too and I really thought that this was what was expected of me but it felt very strange. It wasn't me at all.

Yes, on the rare occasions I do go out to clubs, I don't feel I'm taken seriously by anybody. I've even been accused of being straight and looking for a one-night hook-up with a woman. That was horrible. No, few lesbians take me seriously, even if, from their appearance, they seem to be on the more butch end of the spectrum. I almost feel like I'll have to start dressing down in order to pick someone up. Luckily, I don't much care about that right now and am not looking for a relationship anytime soon.

Some can't understand why so many members of the butch-femme community find community online instead of "out there" because we clearly recognize each other here but it can be much more difficult in the "real" world. My father told me to "stop meeting people online". He said you can meet people in a grocery store. No Dad, YOU can meet someone in a grocery store. I go out and men hit on me or look at me (and it makes me incredibly uncomfortable because I don't know how to respond to it other than walk away). Women very rarely do. This is the femme conundrum.

I have had the experience, not just of butches treating me this way, but other lesbians as well and trans men and gay men too.

the thing is, I AM a ditz and I can be kinda flaky - and I LOVE shopping and makeup and gossip and stuff, which some people code as 'shallow' - but none of these things mean I am stupid or deserving of condescension!! In fact I am WHIP smart and very insightful. It's just this misogyny that is still so prevalent, that devalues qualities seem as "feminine" and as deserving of contempt. It stinks!

Definitely not all butches... many are very respectful... but I have absolutely noticed the dynamic at work often.

One of the reasons why my wife left this space was because she was done being treated that way. Now that I've returned to my baseline femme identity (more on that in another post) I wonder how different things will be.

Cheers
AJ

I find I run into that alot. Admittedly, mine is somewhat exacerbated by the fact I'm very upfront about being a submissive babygirl, but it's all the same problem - people seeing stereotypes instead of actual people.

I love makeup and smelling good and being soft. My hands haven't seen a callus in decades probably (especially since I type everything and barely even write anymore...lmao). I get fascinated by the silliest of things. I just powerpuff girled myself yesterday - not even kidding. I have no sense of space, time or direction. I hate math. I prefer my butch to make decisions for me. I like it when she tells me not to stay up too late and makes me eat the vegetables I hate. I have roughly zero common sense. My self-esteem is often non-existant. Some very obvious things are completely over my head. I have a very feminine voice and am generally very quiet.

I also have an actual genius level IQ. The workings of the human mind and philosophic topics are among my favorite things to study and learn about. There are certain things I can figure out very quickly. I'm a high level manager at my job and control the majority of the day to day staff and their tasks. I am not quiet when someone is threatening someone I love or when I feel the need to stand up for someone being discriminated against. I have no issue with confrontation. I can be an arrogant bitch about certain things.

People look at me and instantly check off all the things in the second paragraph. Yep. Ditzy, slow, and weak. If they even bother to find out any of the things in the third paragraph, they're completely shocked, like how dare I mess up the perfect little box I was in...lol Ugh, people make me nuts.

But just like everyone else has said. You are so much more than what people think of you. They look at you through eyes full of their own pre-concieved notions and prejudices. It's really really hard sometimes, I know. Sometimes I even forget the things in the third paragraph are true. It's a struggle.

Above all else: You do you. No one else will ever do you better.