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What a GREAT THREAD.!!!.

After reading the posts things came up in my memory of when i was a kid..Things i havent thought of in many-many years..I am going to get my thoughts together and i will be back in here..
My counselor told me a long time ago when something is bothering me write it down..I was seeing her because of my lifestyle and trouble with my girlfriend at the time..We can learn alot about ourselves from other people..Think this will bring back the memories of the lifestyle my mom was forcing me to live as a kid..Fought with her the whole time..Hated everything about it..!!!..Iwill be back..

s..

thank you, to ALL of you

I am reading this thread again, and am almost crying. The words, the feelings, the thoughts, the mosaic being painted, are so very rich and beautiful.

I am a lesbian. I came out to the outside world at a late age (49), but always had an "inkling" that I was different somehow. Didn't feel right in my skin. Didn't feel that I could/should think/feel/BE.

I knew deep down, in my most private inside-voice, that I was drawn to the more butch-looking woman. Early on, when I was married and living a heterosexual-looking life, I was confused by those thoughts. I certainly didn't share them with anyone!

Later on, when I began my arduous journey to MY truth, those thoughts, those yearnings, for butch women made more sense, they became more "ok" to me, and I began to internally celebrate them, you know?

When I did come out, my partners were all butch LESBIANS. All women-identified. All masculine-mannered in looks and aura.

I got on the BFP site, and figured I was finally HOME. Someplace that I could learn to celebrate the femme-ness in me, and find my counterpoint, my yang (or ying).

Since then I have met many here, varied in their identifying. Yeah, I have even "crushed" on some. *grin* Some have been female-identifying butches, and some have been more male-ID'ing. I am still learning about the differences in the two. The thought that one could be actually FLUID in their ID'ing had never occurred to me either!

All I know is I want/need to find MY counterpoint when the time comes. I have settled all of my life, and cannot/will not again.

Bravo and kudos to all the butches on this site, for your bravery in finding and celebrating and claiming your own TRUTH, whatever that may be.

May we ALL come home to ourselves!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jett (Post 469122)

This is a subject very near and dear right now. Something of what I went through recently, if you can call a period of two years recent. Now I grew up with a high degree of "butch/masculine" tendencies, there is no doubt to that, it was a natural part of my life from day one, likes, dislikes, behaviors, mannerisms... a natural part of my personal progression, direction and growth, still is.

What's not natural, is the stuff you "learn" later, unwanted life events that change you and leave a bit of sludge each time they touch you, that build up and bog down your movement... and pretty soon you're lurching through life with all this crap you carry. It can be a personal trauma/s, or something you see or even when you're young it can be just a word/s, cuts just deep enough to leave a barely visible scar you didn't even see until much later when actually looking.

I think for me, this all kind of bubbled up slowly and I felt like I was in a constant struggle to define internally my gender "identity" for myself, reconcile the pieces that felt fragmented but every time I claimed the female/woman "piece" I literally cringed... pulled back and looked for "something" else, something that didn't make me cringe so much. Through the years, the conglomerate of directions I went with identity, spoke more accurately about who I was than any one days/years idea/feeling or paragraph. I'm very fluid, to that there is no doubt... so one day I had to ask myself- wtf am I doing? Why am I cringing? I didn't always feel this way, I had to look back to things, events in my life that occurred between who I was when I was proud and embraced of every part of me... and forward to who I had become... and exactly how I had learned to be ashamed and hide "it".

I really have no desire to talk right now about the particular events and things, only that I think it's sooo f*cking critical to living a happy, authentic life, that we r-e-a-l-l-y do examine ourselves, those cringes in particular, with a very critical eye. For myself it was a very long process, I desired strongly to experience and express what I knew I was strong and beautiful inside me but always did a smack-down when I felt that desire. You can't be doing that and be truly happy, you can't love yourself while you are simultaneously hating on parts of you. It's taken literally years... to let the little bits of those parts of me in one at a time, inside and outer things... one at a time... going forward slowly, even having to back up a bit at the end until I reached a place of balance and comfort.

I didn't take a different path then was meant for me, just a more difficult trek on that path when trying desperately to side step parts of it. I have deep regrets, I spent over 2 decades progressively stifling and hating on an amazing and beautiful part of myself, maybe the most beautiful complete part even. I feel like I missed so much that I didn't allow myself, moments, experiences... but quite honestly I can't blame myself... for me personally there's just no way until I'd moved far enough along to look back and see the whole picture. I am just extremely grateful I've reached this place of healing and have a new chance... I think many females/women of all types never do.

And I am grateful for this post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OS Butch (Post 458856)

At the reunion someone thought the OS meant I was a computer geek, as in Operating System! LOL! It is nice to know we are appreciated:)

So then one would question.. Are you a Windows OS Butch? And if that is the case, Windows Vista or Windows 7 or what ~ !

Inquiring minds want to know!

I'm an old fart. LOL, just is fact. It has been an interesting journey as someone that has spent a working and family life in positions of "authority" or key decision maker (teacher/prof, therapist, administrator, business owner, parent, conservator/payee, parent, care-taker, executor, etc.) and really be the recipient of so many teachings of the meaning of butch from many far younger.

Yes, there are friends from this site that are my age too that have helped with my really not finding my personal attainment of the graces of being a butch too. Mainly, I just feel huge gratitude for really kind of stumbling on to this online community (started in '08 on the old site) even though my late partner had been part of the way back when B-F chatroom which led to the first B-F oriented website. I did not join when she was alive as I felt this was her space.

I can laugh at myself now because I have learned so much from not only other butches but Transmen and their journeys as well as femmes and Transwomen and their challenges and thoughts on this truly awesome (as in how the term used to be used) dynamic and winding narrative through many, many decades. Younger members have given me the insight of their more contemporary insights concerning what it means to be queer.

I am a lucky butch woman in finding this community- I never loose sight of this.

Just some random thoughts.... and a thank you.

Thanks Kobi for this thread..I have thought of some things that i never said out loud or told anyone because i didnt think they would understand..This is where i need to be and be understood..

First thing that came to my mind is those curls my mom put in my hair when i was little..She would twist my hair so tight that it hurt..Itold her and she would say quit moving your head and grinding her teeth to get the next one tighter..Then comes those bobi pins..She used my tender scalp for guidence to put them in a cross patern..I swear sometimes she made my head bleed..Had to leave them in all night and it was painfull to sleep..Had to sleep half on my face and half on my cheek..Getting them out was just as bad..She would pull them out like she was racing someone..My hair got cought and she pulled them till they came loose..Couldnt get a brush or comb through it..Those curls were tighter than a poodles..If i can say I Fucking Hated That..!!..She said it looked so cute..No it didnt..

My sister always told me to walk like a girl..I told her i walk like me..There was nothing wrong with the way i walk and there still isnt..I get where i need to go..

I have 2 older sisters and we each had 1 dress of our own..We sometimes would trade dresses so we didnt have to wear the same one all the time..Growing up with an alcoholic father we didnt get much but he got drunk..Hated wearing a dress..Iwould try to make some kind of deal with mom so i didnt have to wear one..Sometimes it worked but most times it didnt..

Think the first time i noticed i was different i was in like 3rd grade..There was a girl i liked and i realized i felt more comfortable around her in my jeans..Would fight with mom not to wear dresses to school..Itold her i couldnt go down the slide at recess..That kinda worked..At Christmas time i would always pick out boys pants insted of dresses..Picked out a few trucks to..As i got older i was getting a few boy things i asked for..

Ok now i am older and able to make decisions for myself..
Got a good paying job and worked at keeping it..Iwould always take the more physcial jobs..After time i got the reputation of doing the most difficult tasks that the girlie girls would step back from..Still like working like that..Now it is expected of me to do my 110% and do more than the Bio Men {and i do}..The guys at work treat me like {One of The Guys} and not a "girl"..I am finally fitting in but not getting to comfortable..There is always someone that pops out of no where to remind me of who and what i am..Some days are kinda tough but few and far between thankfully..I do have good people around me now but it wasnt easy..Today i am going out to Dinner with a guy at work..It is like 2 fellas getting together..Going to his house to get carpet to take to a friends house..He will bitch about his girlfriend..I know the story dont want to hear it again but he is a good guy..Been friends a very long time..When the Ladies at work have any kind of troubles they come to me for help..Kinda run my mouth and things get changed sometimes..They accept me for me and ask no questions..

With all that being said...
After alot of time has passed living here and my job {almost 29 years} people leave me alone and for the most part accept who i am..I still find myself hiding from me and trying to be someone i am not..Guess that comes from not being 100% out..I am a Butch Woman do i really need to tell you..??..My mom did out me in church..Iwas very upset with her and expressed my feeling on that..Most of those people do accept me and it wasnt a surprise when she said it..No one treats me any different..Guess they accept me the way i am..After some time has past in a small way i do feel some relief that she did out me..In my mind i dont have to hide from me when i am around them..

Bottom line i need to accept me the way i am because the people i am around the most have at work and in my neighborhood my family to..

Thank-you for reading..
Sheila..

Quote:

Originally Posted by rustedrims (Post 483024)

Sheila, thank you for sharing this.

You had the bobbi pins, I had the molded plastic hot rollers. Use to call them my crown of thorns.

I still remember the day in the 3rd grade when I was sent off to walk to school in a white, sleeveless dress with a huge (I mean HUGE) purple tulip pocket. I was absolutely mortified.

Looking back, I wonder what our parents were thinking then and sometimes even now. Raising your child to "fit in" was the norm and the goal. Expressing ones individuality and differences was frowned on and contrary to contemporary society.

Did they view our "differentness" as a personal failure of theirs? Their failure as a parent? Were they as confused by our differentness as we were by their insistence we be a certain way? Were they just doing what they thought was right by us, for us? Were they so blinded by what was, that they couldnt see what might be possible for lil girls? Did they even know or could they know that this dichotomy between who they wanted us to be and who we were would stick with us for a lifetime?

It was a different time. Options were so limited. Knowledge was so limited.

Tricky stuff. Even now, when we are able to forge our own way in the world in a society more accepting of differences and possibilities, when we are around people like us who werent part of the mold, it is sometimes hard to even give ourselves permission to just be who we are and be proud of the person we are. Those voices, those experiences, that history is as much a part of us as the person we have come to be in spite of them.

Bottom line? We all want to be seen for and as the unique person we are. We want to be accepted and respected for it. We want to feel we are ok, know we are ok, have others treat us like we are ok. Cuz we are ok. And we want to be at peace with ourselves and the world.

Sometimes I wonder if we realize just how strong we were and are to have perservered for so long. I wonder if we realize how resilient, how courageous, how determined we are and were to even make it this far. We survived a long time in less than hospitable environments and yet we still thrived. Pretty special and amazing stuff.

Maybe it is time to give ourselves permission to be just be who we are and be comfortable with it. Life should be a journey, a learning experience, a happy thing not an uphill battle every step of the way.

Never forget from whence you came. It made you the person you are today. But, maybe, it is time to live, love, enjoy, experience, evolve, explore, accept, heal, and be who you are. Tis the greatest gift one can give themselves.

Needles to say this has been a long journey to where I am now.In the beganing it was me just being a over grown tomboy to not being in the least anything that resembled my girlie cousins wich irked mom to no end.Mom and I fougth lots over me not being who she wanted me to be.Wich is like my very femme cousins who were the apple of theire parrents eyes.I sit now at this age and just wonder what or why I was expected to be like every one else,I mean arent we suposed to be individual people with diffreent outlooks on life,expectations,wants and needs.Once one of my cousins told me she use to envy me cause I stayed true to myself,I told her it came with a huge price that she benefited from cause mom always compaired me to her and how I was lacking in being what I should have been.U c my cousin T was miss.louisisna way back in the day,I was and am still proud of her cause geting to the title wasnt easy.For most of my life I have felt way less than because of my familys treatment of me.One beign the queer of the family was the worst thing I could do..nothing was worse..truly.I still have scars mostly emotionaly because of what happened,im prolly always going to have them even tho I know its all water under the bridge now,I have managed to work my way thrue most of it but it never will just not be part of me.Mostly the abandonment issue pops out when I dont want it too but I deal with it as best as I can,the am I good enough to have people really accept me or not,is still in the back of my mind a lot.My way of dealing with all this is "either it works or it dont" is all I can do as I now realise peopel come into ly life and out of it so I dont expect them to stay or not..the toxic folks who think im desperat enought to put up with them get droped like a hot potato as it goes to my way of keeping sanity and wellbeing strong and healthy.

I don't really fit into the OSOF paradigm as a lesbian butch. I know that this distinction is often atributed to us in general, but, there are many things that as an individual, I don't align with in terms of gender roles. LOL, perhaps this is part of my California state of mind, I don't know. Or, maybe I am just a multitude of non-binary based stereotypes as a lesbian butch.

On the other hand, I always enjoy meeting other lesbian butches and listen to their experiences. This always makes me think about our shared marginalization growing up and just not fitting into the girl thing, yet knowing we are absolutely female. There go those roles again!

So strange that even femmes have been marginalized concerning their feminity in terms of what is socially acceptable. For example, their attraction to butches. How many times have we heard their stories of non-acceptance about this? And not just via the straight world.

I am so grateful for a space like this (the thread as well as the Planet in general) where we can all speak of our experiences. Mainly, I realize that don't have to fit into one, strict definition of what a butch is. Whew!

Kobi once again Thank-you for this amazing thread..

I just re-read what i wrote in this Thread and still felt something inside sturring around a little..Think it is mostly anger from my mom making me into what she thought i should be to save herself from imbarresment [spelling?] in her future..She just did that girlie stuff to me and not my 2 older sisters..Guess they were normal..

Kobi i also re-read your reply to my Post and that got a little sturring in me to..I think that was a little anger also..I couldnt have wrote that any better than the words you chose..I think that maybe the Adults in our lives are hiding behind our "flaws" so theirs are not so noticeable..Our "flaws" are being different than them..I asked my mom when she was born if she was given a check-list of the kind of lifestyle she wanted to live..??..She just looked at me..Itold her i wasnt given one and if i was why would i pick this lifestyle..??..People make fun of you and constant comments by people you know and dont know..Why would anyone pick this life..?..

I dont mean to offend anyone by my next comment and am sorry if i do..
A conversation with my mom turned to the Bible once..I think i was a little wound up that day..I said a bunch of Men got together and wrote down rules to live by..Who said they were right.??..Well they must be right because they are Men and ya gotta do what they say..Right..??..They were all sitting around drinking wine to..Do ya get what i am trying to say..??..Alot of the time i have trouble with male authiority and question it often in my work place..Probly should stop there..

I was thinking about having my mom read what i wrote and the comments but what would change now..Probly get into something i dont want to deal with..That part of my life is over anyway so why bring it up now..I get along with her now and she is very accepting of my lifestyle..She tries to hard to be accepting and sometimes it comes across as fake..That i walk away from..Think she is trying cancel out the times when i was a kid when she wasnt there to make herself feel better now..I still remember when us kids were out playing she would wash the kitchen floor and lock the door so we couldnt come in even when we had to use the bathroom..Had to wait for the floor to dry..Another excuse was that we let in to many flies..Stupid as it is i do remember..I just want to be me and feel comfortable doing it..Thats it..

Thanks for reading again..
Sheila..

Just thinking about how much my life has been enriched over the last few years simply by finding and interacting in this very community. I have found such pride in being a lesbian butch through the thoughts, actions, friendships, and sharing of our range of experiences (good and bad) right here.

Something happened at work the other night that completely cought me by surprise..
My boss pulled me off my regular job and told me to do something else..He said i know you arent going to get 400 so get as close as you can..The regular forklift guy had the night off and there was a girl taking his place..She knows what to do but might be a little slow..I told the boss i would talk to her to tell her my idea of getting those parts out..He started walking away then stopped and yelled back to me HEY NO FLURTING.!!!.I looked up then at him smiled and said NO WAY..!!!..Kinda funny..Things like that are happening to me a little at a time..Ya know after all these years of fighting with myself to be "normal" maybe it is time for me to relax and be who i am..I am a Gay Woman that enjoys the company of a pretty lady..Oh yeah she did keep up with me and i did get those parts out and was done an hour early..

s..

You must be presenting a more confident, sassy ego at work.

You tell a good story. More please........lol

like this thread

I am a femme sort of. I am sort of a redneck femme as my one friend put it. I love my high heels and makeup. I like to be sexy even though I dont feel it. The main difference is I go out in jeans and t shirts can use a chainsaw, cut wood, get dirty, garden, and play football with the boys. I dont see why there needs to be catagories because I dont fit into one. Yes I lean more towards the butches but I have the worst luck in relationships anyways. To me I say be who you want and how you feel for that day. If you love yourself then the person you choose to be with should love you for you too. These are just my thoughts DJ

feels good to be back and reconnect with old friends and meet new ones
Lesbian Butch and Proud

BK

I am glad you are "home" too. It has been a very challenging time for you, dear BK. I hope your heart is healing, and I also hope we connect on the phone soon. What are your hours at school?

(and, you are still my favourite surrogate daddy who helps femmes who don't know how to mix drinks, all while wearing a leather vest and pj's)

hugs

Thanks Kobi, this is a great thread

I haven't been online in a very long time, but Kobi, your thread just popped out there for me.....great thread to discuss things. I will definately have to remember to come back and post something before my visit with my family here in Austin is over. I have no internet where I live...... huge wine from me. LOL
Anyway, I think your thread here is a really good one. I always have enjoyed your posts Kobi, they have true meaning and depth to them.......keep keeping it real my friend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by istolurboxers38 (Post 496538)

Hon, all that and a bucket of chicken too !! It only makes you a very self sufficient woman to be able to do all those things. And there is NOTHING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!!! And what a cute screen name ta boot!!

**Bumping this thread**

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Anya* (Post 457720)

Pre-ordered on Amazon, releasing the end of the month:

When We Were Outlaws (Paperback)
Jeanne Córdova

A sweeping memoir, a raw and intimate chronicle of a young activist torn between conflicting personal longings and political goals. When We Were Outlaws offers a rare view of the life of a radical lesbian during the early cultural struggle for gay rights, Women’s Liberation, and the New Left of the 1970s.

Brash and ambitious, activist Jeanne Córdova is living with one woman and falling in love with another, but her passionate beliefs tell her that her first duty is “to the revolution” –to change the world and end discrimination against gays and lesbians. Trying to compartmentalize her sexual life, she becomes an investigative reporter for the famous, underground L.A. Free Press and finds herself involved with covering the Weather Underground, Angela Davis; exposing neo-Nazi bomber Captain Joe Tomassi, and befriending Emily Harris of the Symbionese Liberation Army. At the same time she is creating what will be the center of her revolutionary lesbian world: her own newsmagazine, The Lesbian Tide, destined to become the voice of the national lesbian feminist movement.

By turns provocative and daringly honest, Cordova renders emblematic scenes of the era—ranging from strike protests to utopian music festivals, to underground meetings with radical fugitives—with period detail and evocative characters. For those who came of age in the ‘70s, and for those who weren’t around but still ask ‘What was it like?’ –Outlaws takes you back to re-live it. It also offers insights about ethics, decision making and strategy, still relevant today.
About the Author
Cordova’s previous books include Kicking the Habit, A Lesbian Nun Story, and Sexism; It’s a Nasty Affair. Her essays appear in numerous anthologies such as Persistent Desire; A Femme Butch Reader, and Love, West Hollywood.

Publisher: Spinsters Ink
Release date: November 29, 2011
Language: English
Number of Pages: 456 pages
ISBN-10: 1935226517
ISBN-13: 978-1935226512 ...

I did get this book when it came out and I really loved it. It was as though I was reliving those times and events.

Well-written and some hot sex for good measure!

It is worth looking for and is on Amazon, in paperback. It might even be in Kindle by now.