"to the victor goes the spoils"

that also, unfortunately, includes the right to write history from their perspective.

i've long thought that it's a damn shame there isn't a requirement for objective, factual reporting. but, humans being what they are, it'll never happen.

thanks for the linkage.

Agreed.

It doesn't seem possible to "give back" or "reject" WMP without it appearing (maybe even really *being*) a pat-yourself-on-the-back action.........in the end, possibly self-serving.

The way I see it, we need to go about the business of building up all others and shining the light on those who are more deserving.

If you don't mind an analogy from the poker table... We see time and again, an aggressive player who has been betting at a big pot surrender in the end (before it's time to show the cards) and say, "I'm gonna let you have this one."

The player would have one believe that he holds a good hand.......maybe even the best hand.......but he is going to fold it and "let the other person have it" as if he is doing that player a favor.

It takes a big person to lay down the cards and say, "I'm beat. Good hand."

Guilt doesn't level a playing field

Guilt also keeps the attention on the one with the privilege and NOT on the less privileged...which (again) is privileged


If Ya' Got It, Ya' Got It...Own It And Move On, So You Can Do Something With It Instead Of Wallowing That You Got It,
Dylan

*bumpity bump* May be worthwhile to move some of the discussion from elsewhere to here.

I'll start by saying that, from where I'm sitting as a Femme, I do not see Transmale and genetic male privilege as the same, nor does it feel the same to me as a Femme when it is exerted in my presence.

do you think that might be based in either a lack of or a different sort of sense of entitlement?

clueless as to other discussions being brought here, and....
 

A person may do different things with privilege - and the power that goes with it - some of may favorites being:

Notice it - be aware that you are being given undeserved benefits.

Name it - Say it loud so others may hear it, just like Linus did - "These women were here first, it's not fair to take me before them." Have meeting minders, whose job it is to note who has spoken, how many times, and for how long (often without being interupted) because if folks are not being mindful the men in the room speak way more and are interrupted way less than the women - in the beginning of noting the numbers are huge.

Share it....and give it away - when you have a place at the privilege table, ask for other opinions, ask that the group recruit POC, Queer, female, youth etc. board members, employees, or whatever.


Story - One of my favorite professors (usually presenting as male) would dress in Muslim attire. Other Muslim men would tell him that he didn't have to dress "that" way, only the sisters had to. Whereupon he would tell them that the Qu'ran says that everyone should dress modestly, if they want the women to dress that way, they should , too.

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Some other stuff:
The Testosterone Show on This American Life had many interesting things said but at this moment thinking about Linus' mention of privilege and different dynamics one of the transguys on the show talks about after he began passing as a male, he noticed getting shoulders thrown at him while walking on the street in New York City, something which never happened as a female.

Additionally, in the film "The Believers" about the Transcendence Gospel Choir - a white transguy admits to liking his newly acquired privilege and in the background you can see the disproval of other folks in the choir, many of whom are POC and male-to-female transfolk. /COLOR]

Just some thoughts.

two points in your post i'd like to address:

Originally Posted by Turtle
A person may do different things with privilege - and the power that goes with it - some of may favorites being:

Notice it - be aware that you are being given undeserved benefits.

do you mean underserved as in no one should have those benefits or undeserved in that everyone should have the same benefits?
I mean that the person being given the privilege did do anything to deserve the benefit. as in being given the job because I'm blond and the boss likes blondes.

Share it....and give it away - when you have a place at the privilege table, ask for other opinions, ask that the group recruit POC, Queer, female, youth etc. board members, employees, or whatever.

i would ask you the same question i asked linus...how do you give it away? you can't force those who are giving you the benefit to transfer it to someone else. if you request places at the table for others, it doesn't ensure it will happen. in a perfect world, you could ask for those things and be given them, with the thoughtless person who didn't include the others in the first place slapping their head and learning from the experience. not to say it couldn't happen..it certainly could. can you give me some real world examples of how i can use the new privilege i have to help others?

Nope, there are no guarantees and we should try. When given the opportunity to speak in front of a group one can give the opportunity to someone with another voice - say, "Thank you very much and Ms. So&So can speak to that much better than I could." or This board is made up of car driving people, howcould we know if the bus schedule is working? We need to ask bus riders." Some thingsare easier (heard & seen more readily) than others. Inviting bus riders to a bus scheduling meeting will fly quicker than lots of other situations I might think of.

And I think that the thread is exploring male privilege. I will identify trans or butch depending on the point or depth of the discussion and the person I am talking with. For me it is too long a discussion for here and now, but I choose not to take T or have surgery. I wear my hair very short and cut my sideburns off square, so approached from the back, I get called "sir" on a regular basis. I also have a soft face, large chest, and my voice will be the end of that most of the time - so I don't pass. And I am well aware of how dangerous it can be for a transman to go into a public mens room AND there are many, many privileges to being male in this society. And it's fucking complicated. AND there probably some things a transguy ought not say in a room full of lesbians if he doesn't want to tick off folks, some of whom may never speak to him again.

It's all about assumptions - people thinking we know what someone else is about because of a word, a sentence, clothes, a beard, a turban, etc. - without having the discussion. And sometimes it gets old saying that no, I don't think that cuz I look like this. And when we talk about it and share ideas I learn new ways to think about things. I am very greatful for the people who have shown me others ways to be...and especially to those who don't shed blood while doing it.

I would love to hear more of your thoughts on this. Your thinking often stretches mine.

My personal expeeince
 

Thanks Dapper!

Yanno, I think that privilege is almost always contextual and that is a huge reason I am not a fan of the blanket "Men have privilege all the time = Tmen have privilege all the time = Men and Tmen have privilege over women all the time = Men/Tmen need to do x, y, z in order to correct/raise awareness of/ingest that privilege properly all the time" sort of statements.

I try to think of what it might look like if there were a group job interview and let's say 4 people were being interviewed:

A White woman
A Latina woman
A Native American man
A White Trans man (and only using Trans as an identifier for illustration purposes, not necessarily to differentiate)

Who has the privilege here?

What if one of them was fat?

What if one of them was in a wheelchair?

What if one of them was wearing clothing that might indicate a lower financial status?

What if one of them had a college degree from Harvard?


I know we've all talked dozens of times about how privilege can be situational and the above is only one way I see this happening. Even on this site, privilege is situational. I might have privilege over a Trans woman. AJ might have privilege over someone who isn't as articulate.

For me, privilege isn't necessarily defined by genetics or gender, because that puts the institutionalism on the person who exists, and not necessarily on the person who GIVES/Assigns the privilege based on their own institutionalization.
I'm not saying that Men/TMen/White People/Rich People don't exist in a privileged context, because I think they do...just that I don't believe the burden of privilege lies 100% in the existence of the person. I think that we are ALL culpable in that privilege.

And what Im about to say next might be wildly unpopular, but I believe that we as women are just as culpable in male privilege if we consistently buy into the idea that we are the "victims" of that privilege.

I'm not saying that it doesn't exist. I'm not saying that it doesn't need to be dismantled. I am saying that *everyone*, has privilege and that any person who believes that Men/TMen have 100%, absolute, unadulterated privilege all the time, every day, for their entire lives is not only full of shit but is guilty of supporting the very hierarchy they rail against.

I think I got off on a tangent, so let me try to redirect myself.

One of the things Im turning over in my head is that male privilege can often feel *worse* when exerted by a Transman. Maybe it's because I hope that Transmen, who have a female context ( in the way of being socialized as children as females) will be an ally to me as a woman who still lives in a female context in helping to dismantle that oppressive system of Men = up there, Women = down there. And maybe that hope isn't fair because I do think that people who are finally able to live in a body that fits who they are inside should get to explore that body and everything that comes with it. I think the exploration of that can be a positive factor or negative factor depending on who that person is inside, what their politics are, etc.
Because let's face it, not every Transman or Transwoman is going to have the same political context. And that is OK!

For me, it boils down to dismissing the idea that Transmen are buying into a system of oppression and that automatically makes them "the enemy" and rather, embracing the idea that someone who is my Queer family member will get to go on a public beach and be shirtless.

Some might call that "privilege".

I call that a fucking celebration.

Context does make a difference.
 

On context- considering the example Medusa brought up (I think this can illustrate quite a bit):

If a Transman takes off his shirt at a regular public beach and looks at me and says "nanner, nanner"- my reaction would be about his exercising male privilege.

On the other hand, if a transman says "Let's find a nude beach to hang at so we both can be shirtless and comfortable"- my reaction would be one of his recognizing how male privilege can and does hinder me as a woman.

Another example that goes to how I understand what might be important to a transman simply in the context of his personal comfort with elements of his transition-Celebrating his taking off his shirt in public for the first time by being there for him in a supportive manner. I have certainly done this at Pride events with a transman friend. Didn't have one thing to do with male privilege.

LOL- one more- the context of my late mother about anyone being shirtless around her in a public (or our home, aimed at my Pop and brother). The personal modesty or boundary context.

thank you for taking the time to read and engage with me. i appreciate it.

The BLUE is the NEW stuff-Originally Posted by Turtle
A person may do different things with privilege - and the power that goes with it - some of may favorites being:

Notice it - be aware that you are being given undeserved benefits.

do you mean underserved as in no one should have those benefits or undeserved in that everyone should have the same benefits?
I mean that the person being given the privilege did do anything to deserve the benefit. as in being given the job because I'm blond and the boss likes blondes.

if you got the job because you're blonde and the boss is particular to blondes...would you turn it down, even if you're qualified for the position? i'm real clear on being given a pass on any number of things because the world at large perceives me as male, and assumes i have always been so. it doesn't lessen the "ick factor" for me, nor does it soothe the anger i feel. are the perks nice? uh huh. do i enjoy having them? i'd be a liar if i said no. i'm trying to figure out how to spread the wealth without cutting my own throat. ~I'm still not into spilling blood - and I try to be tru to my "Ick factor" as you say, but every circumstance is different. I read a book (B-Boy Blues) and forgive me if i use the wrong term because I'm not pulling the book out & looking it up, but a character in the book keeps a "Fuck You Account" because as a Black man in journalism he likes to be prepared for the day he has to say "fuck you" and walk off the job. The world is not fair. Ijust try to say something/do something when and where I can - it is not all the time everywhere.

Share it....and give it away - when you have a place at the privilege table, ask for other opinions, ask that the group recruit POC, Queer, female, youth etc. board members, employees, or whatever.

i would ask you the same question i asked linus...how do you give it away? you can't force those who are giving you the benefit to transfer it to someone else. if you request places at the table for others, it doesn't ensure it will happen. in a perfect world, you could ask for those things and be given them, with the thoughtless person who didn't include the others in the first place slapping their head and learning from the experience. not to say it couldn't happen..it certainly could. can you give me some real world examples of how i can use the new privilege i have to help others?Nope, there are no guarantees and we should try. When given the opportunity to speak in front of a group one can give the opportunity to someone with another voice - say, "Thank you very much and Ms. So&So can speak to that much better than I could." or This board is made up of car driving people, howcould we know if the bus schedule is working? We need to ask bus riders." Some thingsare easier (heard & seen more readily) than others. Inviting bus riders to a bus scheduling meeting will fly quicker than lots of other situations I might think of.

i guess the sticking point for me here is that i don't have a white collar job...i don't speak to groups of people, i do mostly manual labor (with the occasional round or two of office work here and there). the world i live and work in is the one i'm looking for solid ideas about. it's highly doubtful i will ever have a seat on a board or be in a position to affect hiring practices. i'm front line grunt labor. any suggestions from this angle?I'm not saying give up a job, jobs often go by connections, maybe you could give a friend a hand up. And I was thinking of social or no-profits groups with boards at church, PFLAG, community organization-type of things. If a group is all one type of looking person, other folks, particularly people who have experienced some sort of ism, may shy away if not specifically invited- and it is easy for the privileged group to not notice that is an issue. Jokes for instance - some folks think a joke is just a joke and what are you all bothered about? Well if you/your group is on the receiving end of the jokes, it could be considered harassment. I try to move in a way that's as welcoming as I can, unless you run over my toes.

And I think that the thread is exploring male privilege. I will identify trans or butch depending on the point or depth of the discussion and the person I am talking with. For me it is too long a discussion for here and now, but I choose not to take T or have surgery. I wear my hair very short and cut my sideburns off square, so approached from the back, I get called "sir" on a regular basis. I also have a soft face, large chest, and my voice will be the end of that most of the time - so I don't pass. And I am well aware of how dangerous it can be for a transman to go into a public mens room AND there are many, many privileges to being male in this society.

i agree, there are many privileges to being male in this society. there are also responsibilities and expectations that come along with it, as well. i've never had issue with using the men's room. i would assume it would be more dangerous for guys who don't pass. it's been my experience that it's far more problematic using the women's room.Problematic and noisy, yes - deadly no, for some reason some men think they can kill people who "trick" them genderwise the men's room is just not so social as the women's room is. guys go in, do their business and leave. hell, i've rarely had anyone even make eye contact with me in there. you've had different experience? Friends have, I am very picky about which men's room I'll go in

And it's fucking complicated. AND there probably some things a transguy ought not say in a room full of lesbians if he doesn't want to tick off folks, some of whom may never speak to him again.

are those things a butch could say and be given a pass on? or is it just rude in general? There are some women, which I think Linus has experienced and mentioned here or in another thread, who will declare a transman a traitor to the gender (you're not being the way i think you ought to be). A butch may not get the same level of reaction.

It's all about assumptions - people thinking we know what someone else is about because of a word, a sentence, clothes, a beard, a turban, etc. - without having the discussion.

i think people base their assumptive thoughts (or expectations) on their own experience. 'cause if it looks like a guy, it most likely is. people who have no dissonance with their gender are not forced to examine themselves or their context in the world. everything is hunky dory from the git go for them. it likely doesn't occur to them that it's not that way for others.
Exactly, people need to figure out what works best for them. It's not the same for everybody, we change of minds, we learn new ways - it's not a crime. I love learning new things, I'm not worried about thinking "Ooo, that's a better way to do it. I'll try that." Unraveling the older set of gender stuff and cutting a new path ain't easy. Talkin about it is good.

And sometimes it gets old saying that no, I don't think that cuz I look like this. And when we talk about it and share ideas I learn new ways to think about things. I am very greatful for the people who have shown me others ways to be...and especially to those who don't shed blood while doing it.

thank you for taking the time to read and engage with me. i appreciate it. engaging is good. Lurking learns, but doesn't help the discussion. Thanks to you, too.

This thread reminds me of Ben Barr, an FTM scientist. After a talk, a member of the audience apparently said - “Ben Barres gave a great talk today…his work is much better than his sister’s.” Only Ben Barr doesn't have a sister.

That phenomenon has occured for several people in several environments. "He's far better in this positioin than that woman we fired"- same person , same job, post-transition. "The research was far superior than the unscholarly work "x" tried to submit" -Exact same research, submitted under male name, post transition .

Of course it also happens the other way around too.
"x " was always hilarious. Not like this misogynistic prick " -Same person , same joke, post transition.....
And that really sucks.

Article on one transguy's thoughts on and experiences with heteronormative privilege...

http://www.autostraddle.com/hello-te...ivilege-87896/

Nice find, Thinker! I was particularly struck by this:

Bold and emphasis by me. I had never heard of "surplus visibility" but it does make sense. And very true.

Awesome thread
 

Newbie to this site but I have to say I am really enjoying this thread.

I am transmale. Started my transition in 2004. I pass 100% and have only had one surgery, but I have to say it is such a different life.

I completely agree that I am treated with respect, dignity and kindness. I see people do such kind things for me that I would have never received back prior to 2004 and it astonishes me at exactly HOW differently it is.

I take care of my mom who has Alzheimer's. I am praised every time someone hears about it. But, there are many women who do the same and rarely get any thanks. I am thanked for the things I use to do that went unnoticed.

It is crazy.