and what if your 'vibes' are dead wrong--you choose someone else's GENDER based on some *feeling*?

what if i feel like you're a man--should i start he'ing you and 'go with it'?

do you see how this isn't at all your choice to make--how this is all contained within a person--no matter if you never came across someone and 'vibed' their gender/pronoun?

hey Kobi--

i'm in no way wanting to control thoughts.

i do question the validity in *anyone* putting in their 2 cents on how another person identifies.

i don't think a 'vibe' or 'feeling' ought to be a factor in 'gender-ing' another person.

and as the 'vibe-theory' was presented, i find myself with a lot of questions (and yes, i did read Sachita's entire post).

i don't understand the process of going from learning about someone's identity and then doing a little 'remodeling' of that (however internal the process), and ending up at some 'conclusion'.

identity is not usually up for debate, despite vibe or attraction--and forming a 'conclusion' on another's identity skates really close to a kind of thing that sometimes happens where a person wishes to redefine a person for their own comfort level.

(and Sachita as much says this, "if I'm wrong, someone disputes then I change the words but in my heart I never change. I see it how I feel it.")

the thing is, it doesn't matter to me if Sachita (or anyone else) keeps that kind of gender-ing an *internal* process--it's still creates the dynamic where a totally and completely other person 'reacts' to an identity as if it's optional and debatable, deniable. again, this is why i used the example of he-ing Sachita if i were to suddenly decide that she's 'a man'.

lastly, i didn't go inside of Sachita's head and steal her private thoughts--they're posted right here for all to read. and while i don't care for thought policing--i don't think that applies to a person publicly describing her process of "feeling" -gender, and utilizing that "feeling" as a barometer for which *she* determines another's gender.

I am going to answer this even though you didn't ask *me*.

If I met a Lesbian who was married to a man, sleeping with him...I would totally take her at face value. Because to *me* who a person is sleeping with does not define who they are. I am married to a transguy and I am not straight, so I hope nobody tries to take away my Femme.

I don't think that there is such a thing as "thought police" either. That would require giving away ones power. Just because I see things differently than the next person doesn't mean that I am trying to make them carbon copy me.

I have a dog named Kitty. If that helps?

So, then, if I say, "You're not really a butch, and I can clearly see that by the fact that you use blue font and you use female pronouns" that's ok with you?


Dylan

P.S. I've dated and slept with that lesbian you speak of...and her husband

There's a world of difference between knowing the difference between a dog and a cat and having a secret grin and thinking "oh, I know otherwise" when someone tells you what their gender is.

I can't change how I feel about something but I do respect someone's ID, for sure. It really isnt about gender for me as it is essence. It's probably complicated for me to fully describe. Let me think about the words more.

well first of all I never look at a person and just assume who they are. I'm likely to watch and study and yes my vibes have been wrong. I'm human.

What I think is "awww that sucks" because I know what it's like to live a lie.

this just keeps getting better. not really.

That is, I think, because it's completely derailed from Linus' original topic, which was about transmen and whether we ever stop calling them "trans" and just call them men.

Thank you for the new word! I'll do my best to use it from now on. You're right, having the word "sexual" in there draws attention in the wrong way--just as attention is drawn in the wrong way by the word "homosexual." We've probably all seen people get totally hung up on the "sexual" part of "homosexual" and try to reduce us all to nothing more than our sex partners. I guess it's probably the same kind of dynamic in both instances. Maybe that's one reason so many people think it's okay to demand info about a transexxed person's genitalia, because of the word "sexual" in "transsexual." *sheesh, sometimes it seems like the world is populated by three-year-olds when otherwise-adults get so obsessed with other people's body parts*


Kobi, what I meant was, there's this word Transgendered that many people use an umbrella term for all those who don't fit the gender binary; when used in this way and applied to the word Butch, it means a Butch who might otherwise be described as third-gendered, other-gendered, gender-queer, male-identified, or any number of other ways. What these different descriptions all have in common is that they are about female-bodied Butches who do not legally transition because they are not men.

The confusion arises because the wider Transsexed community uses the word Transgendered as a synonym for Transexxed (Transsexual), makes no distinction between the two terms, and doesn't always recognize the usage of Transgendered to mean "transgressing gender binaries."

What's been happening because of that, is that people in our community now mean different things when they use the term transgendered--it just causes lots of confusion, especially when Transsexed men use the word transgendered about themselves. Everyone doesn't know what they mean, because of the other definition of transgendered that is about female-bodied Butches, yanno?

What causes MORE confusion is that so many of us abbreviate and just say "trans" instead of specifying one or the other, transgendered or transsexed. I'm guilty of that myself, although I am consistent and only say "trans" when I mean "transsexed."

Of course, when someone says "Transman" or "Transwoman" they are referring to transsexed individuals. I don't think there's any confusion about that use of "trans."

Does that help?

and then there is heterosexual.

all i can think about are straight people doing the nasty. :poc-cool:

i think about them dancing together in bars. it just doesn't look right.

Getting back on topic
 

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "as always trans something," Linus. Do you mean, do we always see a transsexed individual as transsexed even after they finish gender reassignment and are living wholly as themselves?

Or do you mean, do we always categorize people as transsexed if we find out their outsides don't match their insides?

I can answer your last question easily--yes, I view Transmen as men and Transwomen as women. It's especially easy for me to see the man in a Transman, even before transition, and there pretty much isn't anything that makes me change how I see him unless he tells me himself that he made a mistake and isn't a man after all. That's only happened once that I know of.

It's the idea that we always categorize "transsexed" (I'm a little icky about this as it feels like we're transgressing on intersexed individuals -- ah, English. Such a fun language) individuals as always "trans" man or "trans" woman.

Some female bodied, male-identified do not identify with the "trans" idea, whether before, during or after medical treatment or even without. They see themselves as male only. No trans anything.

The thought that started this was whether the LGBTQ community assumes that someone like me has to be trans (I do identify as trans but I'm experience as an example rather than using someone else).

Does that clarify?

could you elaborate on "someone like me"?

also, are you asking whether to be a part of the lgbtq community, one would have to identify as trans forever and a day, or would dropping the trans descriptor bar you from membership?

Me, as someone who was assigned female at birth but is male.

No. I'm not thinking of forever. I'm thinking of starting from the beginning. Of never having trans as part of their identity.

...and some labels do.
 

trans: i always associate the term "trans" as a kind of broad, ending up in some place other than where you originated.

prior, and maybe still sometimes when i forget that it's just not my business, i was confused by women who trans-itioned from F to be in a state of trans, FTM but not ...Male?.

anyway, i'm probably off topic again.

I have always wondered about this as well. Please understand that I ask questions about things I don't understand and appreciate when folks are able or willing to help explain it. I do try to gather info from different sources, as everyone's experience is not the same.

As the years have passed and so many more folks are able now to transition more easily ( or are choosing to do so) than in years past, I have wondered at what point do those who have transitioned ( or became what they were from birth) stop using the "trans"itional descriptor and just use man or woman.

For me, it is much more confusing to use the "trans" sexxed/gender than to not, as I can often times not tell when the person wishes it as part of their nomenclature. Much easier to say "man" "woman", "other" ya know?

I never know for example, when it is that they are trying to remain honoring their past female experience ( in the case of FTM's) or if like Wil was asking, if it is still being used to remain a part of the queer community ( not that it needs validation). I don't know, so I ask. I think anyone who feels a part of the queer community probably is, coz like my Dad told me "it's a hard path you are choosing" and I don't see many heterosexual folks chomping at the bit to have no rights and be the object of social ostracism.

I do very much thank everyone for touching on this subject.

It seems like a fair number of people who have transitioned try not to make that part of their daily existence, much less include it as an ID they share. Am i understanding the question correctly?

As a queer person, i do not need to understand anybody as trans if that is not how they ID. If they ID as a straight man or woman -- no queer ID, no trans ID -- i would not expect them to be very active in the lgtbq community.

Is that the question?

Re the old question of whether a lesbian who fucks men is a lesbian, that has been argued since i was a sprout and i am OLD. Yes, IMO, she is. She's just fucking men. i genuinely hope she's having a great time.

kinda like transportation? moving from point a to point b?

i think, for me, this might just well be the case...that the 'trans' aspect is the place(s) i am until i arrive. i'm just not sure there is an actual arrival point. but, that would be my interior life. life in the world? i figure being taken at face value as a man means i've arrived. no one who sees me face to face calls me ma'am. could be the mustache, could be the bald spot. or, it could be that my overall presentation is what they expect to see from a man.

side note: i view male and man as two distinctly different things.

i've never been big on "joining" or "belonging". i kinda meander along and look for spaces where i'm either welcome or fit in to some degree. mostly, i'm a loner. that being said....

i've spent most of my adult life in the company of queers...outside work, of course. between the straight world and the queer world...i fit with queers best. these days, i'm not sure i actually fit in either place. at this point in time, 'trans' gives me some credibility (if you will) in the queer world. it at least allows me a guest pass if not full membership.

i try to honor my past by keeping in mind the trials and tribulations that went along with not just *being* female but being perceived as female. and butch on top of that. i never really appreciated how difficult it is to be butch in the world until i began transition. it's a hard life. and a rewarding one.

i think, in some cases, identifying as trans can be a cliff note kind of deal for those folks we tell about our trans status.

i don't tend to look at being FTM as the primary focus of my life. it is circumstance and happenstance. i am so much more than the sum of my body parts and how they're arranged...as we all are. i have long suspected that queers make being queer the primary part of their identity because it is the thing that sets them (us) apart from the majority of the world. i have done that myself, as a means to fortify myself against the shame the rest of the world has laid on me for being different. over the years, i've come to realize that i have more to offer the world than just my queerness. this probably makes less sense written than it does in my head.

LOL, no it did not--but your further posts did, so no worries.

I have seen this possibility, just watching how the community has reacted to people who come in stating they are men. The reaction has been hostile every time that I have seen it. On the other hand, quite often those who introduce themselves as Transmen have been welcomed.

Ah. I've run into several guys (it's sooo much easier just to say guys! Such a relief to stop trying to figure out which word to use) who have insisted that they were never butch, that they were simply men from the beginning. Is that what you mean? Except they did include trans as part of their identity, but maybe they felt they had to in order to fit in the community... I know that over the years all different sorts of words got used to avoid the whole "Transman" label, so maybe that's related?

Damn, Wil, nothing could make more sense! I love this, and I think it is so true!! I also have done that, well heck--Gay Pride--I think LOTS of us have done that, fortified ourselves against shame that way!

I also have learned that I have more to offer than my queerness, but I find that it remains a strong part of my identity--still, over the years, it has moved back a little and now shares the primary identity space with my being pagan... and lately being a gardener is inching into the space, too; I am my own coalition government, lol.... well, that's quite a digression *blush* anyhow, I really loved your post.

Somehow I missed this thread. Most of you know, I identify as a Transmasculine Butch and Transman. I do not identify as FTM. What I see much of the time is the binary being held as the only option. I honestly feel that I am a combination of masculine and feminine. My preference is to be referred to as "he" and I do not think I was born into the wrong body. I think I was born into the body that was correct for me at the time. I have altered my body to align with who I see myself to be. Will I ever have bottom surgery? Most likely not.

Each person gets to make their choices when it comes to their own body. I will respect their choice and address them as whatever their preference is. For myself I do not see myself having some end point in my "transition." IMO, all of life is about continuing, growing and transformation. (This emcompasses more than only the physical attributes.)

I think this is a great topic because many people don't really understand how someone could consider themselves the opposite of the biological sex they were assigned at birth while not considering themselves trans-anything. Not FtM/MtF, not Transman/Transwoman, not transsexual, not transgender etc. I noticed a lot of the same confusion in the FtM vs. Male Id'd Butch thread, I think it was.

To answer Linus' question, no I definitely don't consider all those who were assigned the wrong biological sex at birth always trans-something. Why would they need to be? It's all highly individual, since there are many ways someone assigned the wrong biological sex can identify and various courses of action that can be taken to make one feel more at peace with one's body. Also, whichever course a person takes, does not make them any less/more of something than anyone else, imo. Some may consider themselves transmen/women but not male or female, while others consider themselves third gender, something else entirely, a mixture of the two or certain aspects of the two, others consider themselves strictly male/female but not trans, some retain/take on butch/femme or any other label they feel suits them.

I would consider a person the gender/sex they've expressed themselves as, not the one I think they are by my own definition. Why should I create somebody elses label? I think the only reason a person would do so would be due to their own inhibitions regarding gender/sex, and generally being uncomfortable with certain gender expressions. Personally, I consider myself both male and butch, still a part of the b/f dynamic and not trans or female (distinguishing biological and neurological) or anything else, and would extend the same courtesy toward others as I would like to receive myself. I think I would be pretty hypocritical if I did otherwise, and I think doing so polices gender.

I also don't understand the idea that somehow if someone who was born one biological sex and considers/understands themselves to be of the opposite sex, they should no longer be a part of the b/f dynamic or lgbt community. We, of all people, should understand the variety found in human gender expression. Male, butch, trans, femme, female etc. are not mutually exclusive.