The myth of inevitable lesbian bed death probably added years to my closet-time.

That is why I have always found a difference between lesbians and butch/femme. In my unscientific surveying, butch/femme has less bed death because we tend to have elements of sexuality in our identity. It's a more cock centric vs. dildo centric identification--butch cock that is.

I don't identify as a lesbian, I identify as a butch. I feel I am on the male side of butch and prefer 'hy' rather than she as a pronoun, it's not much deeper of an identification than that. That said, no, I do not want to be a man as some would think that myth goes--the more masculine the butch, the more they want to be a man.

Rope--

Myth: butches and femmes are not lesbians.

Reality: Many of us are both.

My femme cock begs to differ with the idea that the existence of butch cock is the reason for lesbian-sex-life longevity. :P

At least, I certainly hope that butch cock is not the only possible resolution to or vaccination against lbd. :)

Yes, I agree. I am a butch with a cock, no dildo-centrism here. However I also find the notion that butch femme sex to be cock-centric to be quite inaccurate as well as offensive. Also femmes have cocks as well as butches. People (whatever their sexuality or gender identity may be) can enjoy sex without a penis, cock, dildo etc. being "centric." I also don't see butch femme sexuality (whatever that is supposed to be) to be centered around butch.

Hmm, not sure why you're offended. I certainly did not mean to imply that butch/femme cock centric sex was the ONLY way we know how to entertain ourselves. My main distinction was the difference between butch cock and lesbian dildos (many of the lesbians I know are quite offended that SOME butches think of it as their butch cock and not a toy).

First of all, many butches and femmes are also lesbians, so the reasoning doesn't make any sense (less bed death for butch-femme vs lesbian).

Second of all, butches aren't the only ones with cocks.

Third, butch femme sexuality isn't cock-centric or centered around butches.

Oh and the thought of lesbian sex (lesbians who don't view themselves or their partners as having a cock) as dildo-centric just makes me laugh, lol.

Even if there supposedly was some distinction between seeing sex centered around a cock vs. a dildo, how would that make a difference in less bed death anyway? One is considered a toy and one is not???? That makes for less bed death?

I am not partnered with a butch and I am *very happy* with what happens in my bed.

I have in the past enjoyed the "company" of butches and bois (lesbian-identified and not, stone and not), cismen, transmen, androgynous lesbians, feminine lesbians and one straight girl. Of the butches, some were cock-centric, some didn't even want to consider wearing one, some wanted to be slapped, some wanted to be called Daddy. Some were mostly hands-on, some were mostly on their backs, etc. It seemed to me there was no rule about how a butch f*cks any more than there's a rule about how anybody else does.

I have zero complaints regarding the "butch cock" but (to me) it's not a magic wand and you don't have to be butch to have an immersive, visceral experience wearing one. :) And for those butches who don't identify with or enjoy the experience, I don't think that subtracts from their inherent butchness one iota.

I really haven't noticed a huge correlation between people's identities and what they do in bed, with the exception of the term "stone" which still varies a lot from person to person.

PS. I'm not offended - I just don't want have one very specific myth of butch-femme sex - or lesbian sex - to be perpetuated unchecked. There are lesbians who take their cocks very seriously (like me) and there are lesbians who consider them toys and there are lesbians who consider them unnecessary, and there are lesbians who really want absolutely nothing to do with them. There are butches who take their cocks very seriously, there are butches who consider them toys and there are butches who consider them unnecessary and there are butches who really want absolutely nothing to do with them. There are femmes who take their cocks very seriously (again, like me!), there are femmes who consider them toys, there are femmes who consider them unnecessary and there are femmes who really want absolutely nothing to do with them. Anyway, I'm sure you get the idea. :)

I'm betting what you said though Rope - has been true for you and your experience. I don't think you meant anything offensive in your post.

The first butch I "dated" said very negative things about "lesbians" in bed, and she tended to look for straight girls because she had unstated boundaries about how she wanted to be touched and looking for straight feminine women was her solution. I was just coming to understand my sexuality when I met her, and after our first (and only) encounter, she told me I was definitely a "lesbian" and then she told all her friends I was "too butch" for her. However, she never stated her boundaries, she seemed to be quite happy during the encounter. Eh, the experience was painful all around, and I think it would have been less so if people didn't assume that these identities equate to certain acts in the bedroom.

ok so i aked a group of my hetro biker friends what the top ten toughts they had of lesbians..
overweight
mean
wear flannel shirts
like group sex
wear steel toe boots
short hair
hate men
want to be men
have great BBQs
beer drinker

lol dont kill the messenger!! this was kinda a homework project and came from hetro mens mouths! and they also think were all cool!

Some list, huh? Actually, I think it is good to get some of this from outside the community- these are the very same kinds of things that have been around for years from het men I have run across! Some things never change!!

Wow, thanks for reading a whole bunch of things into my post. Guess I'll move on...

Yeah, and my butch clit thinks this whole conversation is absurd- as if every population doesn't experience bed-death in some form as well! With a whole lot of reasons... which have solutions! Most of which have nothing to do with sex directly and everything to do with other areas of communication and the willingness to do something about it.

I get so tired of who calls what...... what and why and that every person experiences the same things as sexual beings.

I thought I had myself allllllllll figured out, and then I read... But seriously? I am a lesbian, and I am NOT less than......:blink:

Absolutely!! We are not less than anything and we are as B-F as any one else!

Lesbian bed death in and of itself is one of the biggest myths of all! Makes me crazy to see it perpetuated by our own community. It's that old generalization thing.

You know what Rope, if anyone is reading more into your post you can always clarify if you want. Quite frankly, your post reads as anti-lesbian to me and perpetuating lesbian myths in a thread that was started to debunk them. Feel free to show me I am wrong if you wish.

I do not know you, but I find it hard to believe that you haven't been exposed to a wide range of lesbians given what I do understand your background to be. A mutual friend- a femme lesbian- arranged a get together when you were in Portland years ago- so I know you know some lesbian femmes and butches. I've seen it first hand. Oh and we all met at a lesbian bar and none of the lesbians treated butches badly there. I don't understand why you draw a distinction betwen lesbian and butch-femme or why you did in your post at the very least.

You've been part of the online BF websites for years, you live in the Bay Area, you help arrange BF socials, you are active in the leather community. I am making an educated guess that you know or have met lots of different types of lesbians, many of whom are also butch or femme. So I don't get your remark that lesbians tend to have more bed death than butch-femme because they aren't cock centric (object to a dildo being thought of as a cock- yeah I am lost with your argument so I might haven't gotten it wrong).

I have a problem with any member posting in a specific ZONE (this thread is in the Lesbian Zone) things that are negative about said population- or making generalizations about it. Don't we have enough of this going on in the world at large?

This isn't any different than what recently went on when a member made derogatory remarks about BDSM in a BDSM Zone thread and then started an anti-BDSM thread that also ran down our admin. Not only did our BDSM members take issue with this, but many non-BDSM members did too because they are against censorship as well as the perpetuation of myths about BDSM and the character of people that practice it. That person was moderated, but fast (I was glad to see this)!

Seems like this applies here. FerCripeSakes, the thread was started to banish myths about lesbianism! And there are many members that identify as both
B-F and as lesbian.

The site TOS now includes lesbian-phobia as something members can report for moderation consideration.

I am the one who brought up LBD and Rope was responding to me. I don't agree with Rope's theory but in a thread about lesbian myths, Rope offered a theory based on experience as to why the myth doesn't seem to apply to butch-femme relationships. I read that as good intention / unintentional anti-lesbian/anti-butch/anti-woman word choice.

Where did I first hear about lbd? From a silly book ostensibly written by a lesbian for questioning women that I thumbed through at the age of 19. That was the first time I tried to get the door open on my closet - and it was rather discouraging misinformation. I remember thinking very clearly and practically, "well, that'll never work." I put the book down and began dating my future ex-husband a few months later.

One thing that is nice about living now is that there are more representations of lesbian sexuality to be found than I remember existing back then. I hope if a 19 year old me walked into a bookstore today, she might be able to find something a bit more encouraging and representative of a broader spectrum of desire and identity.

Nat, yes, there is a myth about lesbian bed death already out there and you brought it up initially. You weren't perpetuating it.

I don't know why people do the butch-femme vs. lesbian when they overlap and it's not an us vs them issue. This is something I see over and over again on BF websites and I do not care for it at all. Many (in my opinion- particularly in the real world- a majority) of butches and femmes consider themselves to also be lesbians.

As to hys experience, again I don't know hym, but it seems quite puzzling to me that someone exposed to so many different types of people given the geographical area hy lives and social circles hy is part of, would make such a statement.

As to bed death (whether it be lesbian and/or butch femme or any other), I agree with AtLast, I think it has more to do with communication, willingness to keep an intimate relationship growing and thriving, and a missing emotional connection more than having to do with actual sex. Then there is just all the issues of life that have to be dealt with, which leave people with not a lot of time and energy.

Yup... and although most people don't want to face it, we do slow down as we age and sex is included in the slow down (so is a wonderful history of creativity). Plus, medications/disability can have an effect on libido. Although, I have to add that "seniors" are far more sexually active than "myth" dictates as well!! Ut, Oh, I feel an attack of ageism and able-body privilege (with coming over me..

And there are many more "measures" of sexual activity than penis-to-vagina methods. The fact is butch/femme cock follows a very straight, heterosexual mode of sexually interpretation. Which is why I personally use accessorize, accessory for butch cock for myself. And toy as well (although not much anymore). No, cock doesn't set me off into defensive feminist mode- I just figure we all have our own terms we prefer. And if a femme I am intimate with wants to call it a cock, I don't care! Our mutual pleasure and satisfaction is what counts

Although, I am fond of “Where’s the toy box, Babe, I want to pick something out?” Oh, Geez, I am not dominant enough, either, I bet. I get off on her (a femme) making decisions around sex! Damn, there goes that butch card, again. Sorry, I do tire of so damn many of the sexual parameters we seem to have.

Oye! Maybe my feelings have something to do with raising a heterosexual male through the teenage years… believe me, I really got tired of cock-centricity… dunno… maybe we should have a poll on this and see what other parents of male kid would say- with the inclusion of a trans related item… who knows….

I am not trying to be snarky, I really am trying to infuse humor into this conversation. When I am able to laugh at myself, I end up seeing things much more clearly, plus I stop taking myself so seriously which calms me down…. I really don’t have a problem with whatever and however anyone wants to embrace (or not) butch-cock or just plain cock. Just please don’t judge my own personal thoughts about it or give me another identifier to deal with! I am as much lesbian as I am butch.

I appreciate the gravity of this subject, but can I just say, there was no death in my bed this weekend :heartbeat:

Oh, and the point is? two lesbians, mutual gratification, no issue over who did what to whom or when and how and...........and it was real sex, without a real label I guess?

I don't want to pick on you, ALH. Your posts are usually so affirming, but this jumped out at me, too. The first two sentences of that paragraph remind me of a conversation I had with a lesbian acquaintance who was having trouble understanding why butches wanted to dress "like men". I took a deep breath and explained that butch women are no more trying to imitate men than men are trying to imitate butches. Women dress the way they feel comfortable, as do men, so why would a person assume that butch women are the ones doing the imitating?

When it comes to butch cock, why would butch/femme sex in which butch cock plays a starring roll be viewed as imitative of heterosexual sex? I'm a lesbian and that's how I have sex, so it's lesbian sex to me. Straight people can imitate us if they choose. That doesn't bother me a bit.

There is plenty of straight/heterosexual sex that goes beyond the recipe above as well.

Which for some reason reminds me of this song:

(warning - this is in no way work/family-appropriate. don't click on it if you're expecting it to be).

I'll interject a little something here on my philosophy on Butch/Femme sex.

I think Butch/Femme sex is super-hot, gender-bending, "Queer as Fuck", writing-our-own-rules stuff. I think that just because we "insert tab 'a' into slot 'b'" that it does not mean we are mimicking Het relationships or "Biblical" sex.

I also tend to embrace Butch Cock as an extension of the self - not an extension of "het", because when a woman straps on and fucks another woman, there isn't really anything "Het" about that in my book. That's two women fucking each other. (or in other cases masculine-identified folks fucking another -identified person)

I think that even if the "cock" looks like a penis that it doesn't automatically default to a "Het" experience. It's rubber or silicone or (if you're real lucky) Vixskin and hopefully will be driven by an insanely talented Butch who will fuck you senseless. It's no more "Het" to me than a bottle of lube or a butt plug or nipple clamps.
And don't get me wrong, I don't think of Butch Cock as a "toy" or as a "device" but I also don't assign "Het" to it since I think that most of the people who tend to use them are more than likely Queer on some level.

I'm super tempted to start a "Butch/Femme Myths" thread and might do that hoping that the folks in this thread won't take it as something icky. I do tend to think of the thought that "Butch/Femme sex follows a Het dynamic" as a myth and that it often serves to diminish our dynamic, make it invisible, or to deny that Butch/Femme is NOT about who's the "man" and who's the "woman" in our relationships.

Good discussion.

In my humble opinion, as long as our society will equate sex = only reproduction, we won't get out of the penis/vagina equation... of course, as a species we use sex, or should I say coitus, in order to reproduce, but sex, other tha coitus/penetration, is also a way to express other things... bonding, making social contacts, having pleasure... and even, unfortunatly, punishing others. "Non coitus" sex was also observed in other species like primates, dolphins, etc...

That is why when some people tell me, "but you don't really have sex because you are a lezzy"... I ask them, "well do you always get pregnant or does your gf gets always get pregnant when you have sex?"

If the answer is no, then I tell them.. "then you are not having sex either!!!!"

My two cents...

I think defining "butch-femme sex" as fundamentally different from "lesbian sex" due to the focus on "butch cock" is extremely problematic because it creates a false dividing line between lesbians and butch-femme folks and it stereotypes sexual behavior over the entire spectrum into a very narrow definition.

If that's how you have sex and you're a lesbian, then it's lesbian sex. But to say "X is how butch-femme people have sex," and/or, "Y is how lesbians have sex," is to define a whole lot of behaviors as one single behavior - as though that one single behavior is the defining factor for all of us.

Defining butch-femme sex as centered mainly on the "butch cock" feels pretty sexist/heterosexist (even though heterosexual sex is various just like any other spectrum of sexual behavior), because it's forcing a masculine-centric, phallocentric definition on a broad spectrum of behavior among those who are designated female.

Also, the idea that non-butch-femme lesbian sex is somehow defined by the lack of said cock also feels pretty sexist. It goes back to the idea of defining women by our lack of phallus rather than by the anatomy we actually have (a la Freud's penis envy).

Aside from its sexist/heterosexist overtones, it implies a "no-true-scotsman"-like scenario where "true" or "real" butch-femme folks would not also be lesbians or would not fuck without a "butch cock" involved. It's the kind of thing that puts butch and femme on a sliding scale and discounts/invalidates the identities and sex lives of butches and femmes who prefer other kinds of sex.

(Just one example: Butch bottoms exist and they aren't any less butch for it. When you define butch-femme sex as involving a butch cock, it does feel like an attempt to invalidate butch bottoms and femme tops and switches).

Very interesting what gets responded to and what doesn't.

Anyway, I am a stone butch lesbian who has a cock not a dildo. I'm engaged in lesbian sex when I am using my cock or it's being pleasured or whatever. I am a lesbian having sex. Lesbians having sex where there is no butch cock involved are also having lesbian sex. Butches and femmes (whether they are lesbians or not) are having sex whether there is a butch cock involved or not. There are as many ways to have sex as a lesbian as anyone else having sex.

Nat, nailed it with post as far as I am concerned. You can't divide up lesbians and butch femmes based on butch cock- that's extremely sexist and narrow minded and inaccurate. It also does follow along heterosexual lines of thinking which is what I believe AtLast is referring to. Butch cock is not the center of the universe for butch femme sex, although many of us are rather fond of it as giver, receiver or both.

PS. I don't think of my cock as a dildo or a toy either, and I do ID as a femme and a lesbian.

When it's attached, it's part of me, it's an extension of me, it's this body/soul/brain cohesion thing and it's awesome. :)

Yes, Bulldog you're right---I live in Gay mecca San Francisco and meet and cross many communities with the Queer community. That said, there are plenty of lesbians in this town that do not like butch/femme folk and IN PART, that is how Butch/Femme Socials got started.

No, a butch (or femme) cock in one's relationship will not prevent lesbian OR butch/femme bed death. My point in saying that there is LESS bed death within our community again was from talking to those who "crossed over" from lesbian to butch/femme community, is from talking to various people who have done this. They found that the dynamic of butch/femme was vastly different than their lesbian life and more open to sex and the communication of sex.

Yes, I know there are those that don't make that distinction between lesbian and butch/femme, that they are lesbians AND butch or femme. Yes, I know that plenty of switches use dildos or their butch or femme cocks---and plenty that have fulfilling sew lives without dildos or cocks, not to mention have a variety of sexual activities. Plenty of lesbians and butch/femme folk do not like or enjoy penetrative sex with cock like instruments or even dildos in the shape of dolphins.

Yes, Bulldog I attended an event at a lesbian bar---and guess what, I wasn't looking at the lesbians in the bar. I wasn't noticing the similarities that we have as "sisters" in this community. I was tracking the butches and femmes. I am glad that you have not had a rough time in your lesbian community.

Rope--

Ok Rope,

the part in bold I disagree with. Thanks for the reply.

I understand why and how this sets you off- I was not really intending what I think you believe.

For the record- I enjoy it all and am a lesbian of the b-F variety. I get tired, however, of how we often put things in narrow contexts sexually. I do personally get tired of the word cock and it brings some very heteronormative things up for me. My main problem was with touting butch cock- or any cock- with lesbian bed death. I hate the phrase lesbian bed death too- it is belittling and I think (especially in most of this conversation), goes to the never ending comparison between lesbian and straight sex. Ie., all you need is a good lay- meaning a man with an attached penis plunged into your vagina.

No, my use of accessory items (and it doesn't stop with dildoes- they are not the only “toys“ around!), has nothing to do with cocks! Never has, never will. Anything I nickname, in fact has a clit as part of it. It is just important to me to own my being a woman and honoring the wonder of female sexual anatomy. Maybe because of the era I am from in which women were referred to as such things as frigid, non-sexual, not even supposed to be sexual beings, bad if they did, too good, if they didn't, shouldn't play sports because we might hurt our female body parts, kept from certain professions and jobs... on and on- I am just sensitive about this stuff. But, honestly, I my "toys" are of the feminine because of how I have integrated gender-bending in my life. I choose to "bend" to the female/woman side of the equation because there has been so much taken from me in the past for being a woman- and a masculine woman. I also am tired of the lesbian-phobia I see so much of on B-F sites (it is much less so on the Planet, however). It bothers and hurts me as a woman and a butch.


I absolutely apologize to you or anyone else if I offended you. I really was not intending this. I do have strong feelings about the female as well as lesbian sex. I know I can react differently to some of this stuff, but, to not be who I am as a butch woman and how I relate to sexuality as a person just isn’t something I can over look. But, I will try to use different wording if I return to the Planet in the future.

I have no personal negative judgement of how everyone else sees this- or what terms they want to use. I especially think there could be some sensitive things that trans folks could have around this.

The more I think about the butch-femme dynamic supposedly being more open to sex and the communication of sex, the more I disagree. In fact there appear to be far more "rules" to butch-femme sex and how it is supposed to be done and who is supposed to do what and what is supposed to be used (the almighty butch cock) than with lesbians (those not also identifying as butch or femme) where it's two women enjoying having sex together and where women are actually valued- as women and as sexual beings. I am a butch with a butch cock, but I really just have to shake my head over all of the perpetuation of lesbian stereotypes.