I think it's a good rule to follow. There are plenty of beautiful women out there to choose from. Now that being said, has anyone ever dated an ex's friend or does that fall into the same category?

I do, I think it keeps my friendships "cleaner," simpler and most definitely easier.

Exactly.

Like Corkey said, it never even enters my head.

I think it is a different category, but I have never done that either. Nor do I think I would.

I tend to not have regular contact with my ex-g.f.s, subsequently, I tend to not continue friendships with that person's closest friends.

To use Liam's words, I tend to like thing "clean" and "simple" in my life. Relationships are tough enough, adding in nebulous boundaries can make them harder!

Truth be told, I have very few butch friends online or in RT. I tend to not socialize in the queer world in RT. My closest friends are straight males. I had a big falling out with a lot of my butch friends a few years ago while going through a messy breakup that was characterized by one side as something it totally wasn't. There was a perception, I think, that I had done a dishonorable thing, when I really hadn't. Anyway, that whole experience sort of left a bad taste in my mouth. It's only recently that I have welcomed friendship from butches, and I like that I have someone I can talk to who automatically knows the shorthand, as it were. I do plan on being somewhat selective in my friendships based on lessons learned.

Jake

I, personally, have no real time butch or transguy friends. All of my gay friends are androgynous, and although I love them dearly, I so wish I had someone to have "shorthand" with, in real life.

God knows how I have found femme off line to date. The femmes I have dated (except for once, I only date locally), have never been able to find femme friends, either.

And when it comes to online, I am not really connected to any butches/transguys, either. Has just fallen out that way, for whatever reason?

I am very thankful for b/f/trans space on the internet, however. I certainly get a lot of my needs met just by being on this type of site.

Right on. Same here, except for one, I won't get into details. I know what you mean though. It's like a new chapter for me when the relationship is over, especially if it was ltr.

I think so because for me it gets a little incestuous (hope that word is ok to use and doesn't offend anybody).

Nope I see it all the time with another group of friends. This one is with that ones ex and this one is with that one ex and this one is with this ones mom. It gets ridiculous.

I don't know any transmen or other butches in real time. I sometimes feel like a phantom moving through the world. I can appear to be indecisive on certain subjects, but that's because I have a strong sense of seeing both sides of an issue and I greatly respect others opinions and their views. Not to say I don't have strong opinions, but real life interaction would be so beneficial at times.

I am glad to see this thread started. I have always noticed the online difficulties we as transmen and butches have had relating or communicating with each other and have always wondered why that is.

Is it because we've all had our share of struggles in negotiating the world, our self-identity, others expectations, etc. and we are more guarded and protective of that? Is it for fear of becoming left out? Is it competitive posturing for the attentions of femmes?

Just throwing some stuff out there.

I don't post a lot because life keeps me busy and I do have other interests, but this is a thread I will follow.

Right, to me that is "incestuous" (for lack of a better term). I have been fortunate that my group of friends (well, I have more than one "pocket" of friends, I guess I should say), don't operate in this way. It would be uncomfortable for me to be with a whole group of people who have moved from one person to the next in a group (talking monogamous relationships here).

However, it happens. I think that part of it (at least, "back in the day", when I saw it more), relates to the fact that there is a limited "supply" of homosexual females/queers (in comparison to heterosexuals, for example).

I would say all of the above. When I was younger and didn't have a strong sense of self I have been that guy. I used to participate in what I called "butch contests", trying to get girls attention. I recognized it and still participated in it. Not anymore though. I would rather support my brother than compete. That also includes letting him know when he's being an asshat.

[QUOTE=Kosmo;129882]
....I am glad to see this thread started. I have always noticed the online difficulties we as transmen and butches have had relating or communicating with each other and have always wondered why that is.

Is it because we've all had our share of struggles in negotiating the world, our self-identity, others expectations, etc. and we are more guarded and protective of that? Is it for fear of becoming left out? Is it competitive posturing for the attentions of femmes?

Just throwing some stuff out there....

QUOTE]

You know, I honestly have to say that until this site I really didn't notice the infighting. And I was on the other site most often daily, for years. I don't know what the hell I was doing over there, but I just didn't notice. Perhaps I moved off of those threads when the craziness started, but I also think that back then I never noticed people, I just noticed posts, if that makes any sense. I didn't have an investment in the same way b/c I never really posted, or connected with others.

I didn't watch the relationships between others at all, so I wouldn't have tracked how things shook out between groups of people. I think I was just so wrapped up in reading about gender, I just moved along. So, maybe that is why I didn't notice.

In terms of this site, I have obviously seen it. However, I haven't noticed any real communication/relating problems between trans people and butches...more so within butch groupings.

I would very much like to read others' thoughts on this, BUT, not at the expense of us coming together in the way that we are right now.

ETA: So, unless our talking about what happened in the past is set up as a way to move forward, I would be hesitant for us to have that discussion, I guess I am saying.

Same here. Sometimes it feels kinda strange. I need to shop around for a butch buddy, lol.

Yes, I agree about the 'butch contests'. In the club/bar environment for me.

My sense of self took years to develop and I'm still honing it. Now I am comfortable in who I am. Like the proverbial pair of favorite jeans, t-shirt or sneakers. I've also allowed myself to be more fluid in how I identify regarding male/female. I'm finding my center so to speak.

I no longer feel that false need to prove some sort of degree of being butch.

I think supporting each other is important. And being honest, even more so.

Hey, Strappie. I am curious to know this as well. Does Olivia cruises only let cissexed gay females on the cruises? Do they let any other group on? MTFs? FTMs? Cis gay males? Cis straight males? Cis straight females? (I am pretty sure the answer is yes to the last one..straight cis females can come).

I would really like to know. Not b/c I am planning on going, but b/c I would like to know.

Also, if it is typcially only gay females, did the admin of the dash site may a special request that EVERYONE on her web site be able to attend?

Let us (or at least me!) know if you make that phone call/pose that question on the site, what you find out.

Strappie,

I don't know who Olivia markets their cruises to now. I know how they initially did. They probably have a website you can check.

Dapper,

I will call Olivia Cruise myself tomorrow.. for now I need to settle my thoughts and get some sleep. 5am comes fast at Midnight!

Well if they have that policy wouldn't the cruise attract people that mostly felt the same way?

[QUOTE=DapperButch;129926


Is it because we've all had our share of struggles in negotiating the world, our self-identity, others expectations, etc. and we are more guarded and protective of that? Is it for fear of becoming left out? Is it competitive posturing for the attentions of femmes?

Just throwing some stuff out there....

QUOTE]



Glad you threw it out here!

I think you might have something here with being guarded and self-protective. I just don't see either butches or trans/ig (and all the various identities) having a great time within society a lot of the time when we all just want to be who we are. And in our community, there just seems to be an awful lot of stereotyping on top of the outside world.

I think it is hard to feel left out when there just doesn't seem to be much room for yourself anywhere, so, when it feels shitty here, it feels really bad!

I have thought about the posturing stuff and competition over femmes quite a bit. I don't know if this is really true, but I wonder how much all of us internalize what femmes project as being attractive in terms of who we all are. Hell, we have all read posts talking about the super-butch, etc. by some (not all) femmes. But, I sure see other posts in support of a butch like me, too.

There are femmes that will only date Transmen and there are those that will only date butches. I try not to question either even though I have had some weird things happen around dating a couple of femmes that wanted me to transition. I honestly believe that everyone is just attracted to what they are attracted to. Then, again, I know femmes that have said they didn't ever think they would be with a transguy, but are. It seems to me that it is the person they fell in love with and the gender stuff just doesn't matter.

Hummm... you know, one of my old time FtM friends once did say to me that he sometimes felt that women (he would use women, not femme as he has no identification with the B-F dynamic) just wanted to find out about a Transguy out of shear curiosity! This made him pretty suspicious and guarded. I thought this sucked because he isn't a freaking experiment!

Ut, Oh... maybe I digressed....

Anyway, Dapper, I think there is a whole big pile of things that both butches and transmen could be guarded about which then can just lead to defensiveness for self-protection. I wish this wasn't true because it is smacking us all around, really getting in the way of our friendships and working together for civil rights (if that is something you want to do).

Here's the deal with Olivia Cruises. I know this, because I called them just last week to find out (for sure...from the horse's mouth) who's welcome.

Men (all flavors) are welcome on the cruises. They ask that you please realize this is a cruise geared towards the lesbian community, but men are welcome as long as they respect that it's geared towards lesbians.

They were extremely nice to me when I called, and really stressed the point that it's not a 'women-only' space.


Not That I Plan On Going, But...There's The Info,
Dylan

Just peeking in...

I can answer one teeny piece of this. Olivia does allow straight cis women on the cruise. A strongly feminist (and celibate by choice) friend goes on these cruises because she prefers the time outside of the company of men.

Well, after reading some of the posts on here, I am feeling kinda mixed, to be honest.. It's amazing how many triggers can go off while reading a thread! lol

In any case, here are some of my thoughts..

RE: Butch/trans morals and ethics when it comes to dating a friend's ex.. I take it as it comes.. If I am good friends with both, I can usually tell if it's a healthy break up that just needs time for both partners to heal, or if it is unhealthy and full of destructive behavior and hurt feelings.. In the first case, if I'm attracted to one of the partners, I will let them know, in a comfortable way, that I am interested and that I would like to date them, but I want to allow them time to heal.. Then it is up to them and we can go from there. Is it my responcibility to ask permission from the other ex partner? No.. The relationship is over. *shrugs*

In the second case, I leave it be.. It isn't healthy and I don't want to be a rebound or a way to get back at an ex.. I have been both and it hurts.

RE: Women's only space.. We got the cruise thing settled out, but when I first saw the Oblivia post by Strappie, I was thinking, "Oh god! Being stuck on a boat with a bunch of people that don't want me there? Having those "conversations" with people that don't get or don't WANT to get why I am transgender? No thanks.." It is also about giving women, (god yes, I'm using women.. female only?), females a place to feel safe and comfortable with themselves and who surround them. I *don't* belong. I will never belong in female only space. I have made my "choice" and if I expect to be respected, then I will do the same..

On a side note.. FUCKING AWESOME COMMUNICATION going on in this thread.. At Last, thank you so very much for talking TO me and not just to my post. I felt that. Thank you.

I may have more later.. Thank you all for posting and for being real.

-Tony, Asshat (not really, but it made me laugh..)

These are some random and not so random thoughts while I sit here at work and multi-task.

I have noticed that we do come to each others aid when there is a misconception or stereotype, but that it sometimes escalates into a gender war and that’s frustrating to see. Then femmes get involved and sometimes I wish they wouldn’t. I have been guilty of trying to speak for others when I shouldn’t have… just once (I think?). It’s not like I don’t appreciate the effort, but then those voices I want to hear from are drowned out in a way. Then the flirting and adoration exchanges start and I get annoyed. I would like to see more of us coming in to talk about what we can do to help each other. Between us and only us.

Are we less likely to find camaraderie because we’re so used to going it alone? You know the stereotypical gender aspects we’re ALL supposed to innately have that make up the brooding, loner, tough exterior, ‘I don’t need help or support’. I know we’re much more than that. It’s as if the chasm between butch/transman and femme is built just to feel/fit a need for the other and I think it limits our view of the common ground we do share.

To AtLastHome,
I think you were actually quoting me, but have DapperButch as the originator of this quote:

‘Is it because we've all had our share of struggles in negotiating the world, our self-identity, others expectations, etc. and we are more guarded and protective of that? Is it for fear of becoming left out? Is it competitive posturing for the attentions of femmes? Just throwing some stuff out there....’

So I’m going to respond to you. I don’t think you digress at all. I can’t imagine the difficulty or internal strife that transmen may have with sensing or knowing that someone is interested out of curiosity. I can only say it might be similar to someone who is interested in a butch out of curiosity.

I’ve never succumbed to the interests of someone like that. When I think about it, I know it would make me feel stripped of self. I would feel like an oddity and lose my attraction immediately.

On other thoughts, I’ve read about transmen getting gigged for not being somehow loyal to the cause or traitors when they feel they must leave the community. I find this contradictory when I think they have gotten back a lot less/if any loyalty for their cause. It wouldn't bother me personally if a transman or anyone wanted to leave the community to live their lives. See, I’m not that involved in the community, I don’t get involved in queer political issues, but doesn’t make me unloyal or unable to post my thoughts/opinions on such issues. Would it affect me if I had a transman as a friend, let’s say a friend before and during transition who needed to leave the community and alter or limit their interaction with me? Yes. It’s hard for me to say goodbye. I’m a sentimental person and I would miss them a lot. Could I try to be closeted for them in interactions to not inadvertently sell them out? No. It would be impossible for me to be something I am not. Just like it would be impossible for them. We’ve all worked through enough shit to get where we are today.

These thoughts may or may not resonate with anyone, but I find that if I don’t sometimes blurt stuff out that I’m pondering, I’ll never add to the conversation. Also, it takes me freakin’ forever to assemble that blurt into something coherent and then by the time I do post my thoughts, the conversation is 15 pages down the road! ;)

I’ve had other thoughts, but I keep getting interrupted at work ;) and I can't login from there.

No problem, ALH. Just wanted to make it clear. On the other hand, if I say something really stupid in the future, I might not want to clear it up, lol.

And I didn't even notice even though I read AtLast's post! lol

I second that!

LOL... until I'm leaning over the side of the ship, sick!

:seeingstars:

We will bring you dramamine...:|

Maybe I'm mistaken but I feel like the dissonance between different masculine BFP ID's goes beyond butch codes, dating ex's etc.? I've never done that but still gotten caught in the cross fire of these "gender wars". (Yeah I realize that's bonding but needed a jump in ;))

Personally I think a lot of it revolves around ingrained stereotypical beliefs about women, men, female, male, lesbians, feminists and sure sometimes (but I think much less often) just plain sexism, lesphobia/homophobia, transphobia and misogyny etc.

I mentioned before that I think things here (online) get lost in translation. People read others posts through there own lens, if some of the things I mentioned above (and more) are in that persons lens when they're reading posts, I think they can read a lot between the lines that isn't there.

We are full of misinformation by the time we find these sites, "transmen transition to gain priviledge or b/c of misogyny", "lesbians hate men", "all queer females are extreme feminists", etc. etc. etc. And we get here where we should be finally equally valued and find... male female hierarchies, so here female ID'd feel undervalued and misunderstood. Male ID'd hear "I only date female ID", and to be fair this is something they face hugely more in the real world than female ID'd do. Those majority of (femme or not) lesbians who are "goo goo ga ga over butches but don't want those who think they're or look too male". That stuffs all over the internet and real life too.

And there aren't big real world communities for Transpeople and most tg or male ID butches the way there are for most female ID butches and butch lesbians. Would anyone wonder why they'd place such great value on having and finding community and desiring to feel welcome here and probably being somewhat defensive about it? I sure as hell don't.

I dunno, I think we bring a lot of the negative real world experiences in here with us, beliefs, resentments, fears and project them out onto each other...

We look for these things and where you look you'll most certainly see whether it's always there or not. Then it's the "Aha! I was right about them!"... when in reality the majority are really good peeps and we should and can be some of each others best friends and allies no matter the ID (sans natural personality conflicts).

I mean does anyone really want to win the "war"? Really actually want some particular ID to one by one blip off the site forever? I like to think none of us would really want to see that happen to anybody let alone a whole group of people.

People waste to much life on this stupid "war", I don't want anything to do with it, everything about it just tastes like shit. That's all I got to say about it.

Metro

Sooooooooo,

Do we have anything to talk about besides "The Gender War"?

I would like to know why there's a common belief that the second a butch says he's male ID'd, *some* (and usually the same) female ID'd butches think he's handed a platter of male privilege. I'm asking seriously, and I'm not being snarky. I've seen this happen since the Borders And Bridges thread on the other site, and it's definitely a recurring theme in *some* FIB's posts.


Can Anyone Tackle This?,
Dylan

Some is operative, I hope!

Maybe, this happens simply due to the fact that no matter who we are, we have been subjected to the patriarchal confines of gender all of our lives. Unfortunately, man, male just gets equated with privilege due to this. Not a good jump to take, as there are a hell of a lot of variables involved in any form of privilege.

Also, and unfortunately, the male role models many of us have had have just been examples of this privilege gone amuck in this man's world.

On the other side of this, as one having a hand in raising a male child (who is now raising two female children), I have to say that it can be as painful to see what men in general can be saddled with in terms of the entire patriarchal schema. There are many just plain human characteristics that get genderized in ways that hold us all back.

Personally, I feel it is the buss word phenomenon here that is the culprit most often (unless it's just obvious sexist terminology - and when I use the term sexist, it means toward any form of gender). Also, the plain truth is that there have been times when I have been attacked for identifying as female. And the inverse is true for male identification. So, we all will most likely get pissed when we have this happen.

However, the problem is when we all generalize the deeds of an individual to every identification represented here. Hey, I admit, that sometimes it is hard for me to see past what has happened to me via this privilege in life, especially sexual assault and receiving less pay for the same work.

I have to bring up the fact that many male-identified or Transmen here do slap misogynist statements down as much as any female-identified butch here. I’m thinking it might be a good idea for everyone to take a look at what a member’s identification is to the left of the screen when reading posts.

But, in terms of how we interact as friends in our lives or support gender as what we now know (some of us are old), fluid and just not your mother's or father's gender? And, online, how do we all deal with this... that is my original question. What effect does this have on us as part of this entire community?


But, 'cept.... talk about all of this.... I'm too arthritic to tackle much these days...