I don't know if it is a protective thing, cause lemme tell you there are a few times I wanted to go in and drag Grant out of a thread cause of how I felt.

My dynamics with him say I can, I don't because his voice is strong and important and should be heard

Just like anyone elses...

I don't need to go in and mother and cater and fawn over anyone, can I be an ally

FUCK yes..

Can I do it in a way that is productive and not so oogey?

Yes

I have a lot I want to say, but my fever is around 102 right now and I am having a hard time forming cognitive thoughts.

My favorite thoughts swirling around in my head right now have to do with hula hoops and assuming the best about people, not the worst.

I think as Femmes we have a better ability to lift each other up when the chips are down.

I want to be clear that everyones voice matters in this conversation. We are all part of this community sans the fences, and are all inter-connected in one way or another. So our voices matter.

I'm going to lay down now, but I'll be back with thoughts on hula hoops and assuming the best tomorrow. :blueheels:

Thanks for the feedback, I think I understand the intent of the thread more now.

Thinking about my femme perspective...

I've taken heat for admitting it's hard sometimes to remember pronouns. It is hard for me to remember pronouns. It's also hard for me to remember names. I still don't know Goof's phone number. Or where my keys are.

I wonder if our beloved butches/transmen would begin a thread about how they could build bridges to improve relationships among our diverse femme contingencies? Or, to put it another way, is this as/more important than healing our own femme community?

I think they will talk about it in the other thread, about how we are influental.

I think it is all tied together, we all are, and how we behave about one another.

Yeah, I'm rabidly protective. Oh, the posts I've started and deleted...and the ones I should have deleted but posted instead...

Good point, that is very true.

Annie, you're right. Good point.

Truly, I'm laughing super hard right now.

I've been rabidly protective before when I have seen a person cry over their frustration over a thread. I have a really strong protective streak. I have figured out (am figuring out still) that it's not appropriate in most cases for me to run with it when I'm feeling protective of other adults who are perfectly capable of having their own voices and using them.

I'm trying harder these days, if nothing else, to listen to, understand and support other femmes (and myself) at least to an equal degree as other IDs.

I'm thinking about this protective thing. My intent is not to remove agency from grown-ass adults, but to add to their already existing agency. To double the power.

Regarding this thread: a femme's influence on the friendships between butches and transmen" and hit a roadblock almost immediately.

Snow, why did Sam get "chastised" for using the word "balls" with respect to getting the conversation going? I really need to understand that before I can get into the spirit/participate in this thead.

Thanks

Exactly ....
I don't believe in taking responsibility for others woes..
I also don't take on responsibility for those that do..

Did I use the word balls????

Lemme go check all my posts ok before I answer this and honestly I need to make sure I don't piss a moderator off before answering this honeslty

Gimme a few to re read myself and stuff

Thanks

Here is where I used the wording balls, and lemme tell you I had to go find my proverbial huevos for me to even start this thread, cause I am fully aware when I started the thread I knew that I may have my ass handed to me. I am also fully aware my loud mouth and my loud opinions and well that makes me unpopular and to be honest A LOT of assumptions are made about me. To be honest I don't even know what to say to you than be honest, I can't believe I am having to defend myself but I will.

This is what I said and here is why.

We ain't tight....

I don't like undertones, I don't like how someone uses my kid to make convo with me, I don't like manipulation, Sam and I aren't friendly like that.



BTW the part I just highlited Sam added after I commented


I thought I was clear about how I felt with his over familiarity.

I was NOT stereotyping Sam, I was making it clear we aren't familiar funny though how I get called out for being snarky but Sam does not?

I am going to be honest I can't believe that I am having to defend my space, my words, and how I feel..

Thought I do think it is a perfect example of how we as femme's influence things in the long run.

If you need any further explanation for participation can you please pm me, and hand me my ass so that we can continue this.

Hi everyone :rrose:

I don't have a whole lot to contribute to this convo because I'm so new to this community...I simply haven't seen alot of the behavior that you're discussing. However, I'm all about building bridges instead of fences...pretty much everywhere.

The one thing that's jumping out for me is when we talk about being allies...because, for me, an ally has essentially picked a side and chosen to support one over the other. To me, that's divisive.

Much of my professional work is as a liaison...I bring diverse people together to work on common projects. I don't see myself as an ally of any group. I am the bridge...myself...and the most important thing I do is foster communication between them, rather than talking myself.

Just a thought...

I don't think Femme's have diverse pronoun usage to worry about. Or even so much diverse gender presentation. So we get a little taken for granted IMO. To me that translates into us doing a lot of work around making sure that the butches and trans folk around us are comfy. Over the last 5-7 years it has become kind of auto-pilot. That is where we get into trouble with laziness of language choices ya think?

I HAVE seen our counterparts care when it comes to things like oh say...Stone Femme. Even then the shit hits the fan and a consensus cannot be reached on a definition. My question to everyone is this: Do we need healing within the Femme community to the same degree or are we intertwined with the butch and trans communities?

Well. Hmphf! Nobody gets to tell you what you are. That is reedickulous. Also, if you bind yourself with somebody in order to prove a connection with them you need therapy, not the label of an ally.

With that being said, I also think that it's a fine line between ally and appropriation.

Yes. Fences are so hard to climb, and the electric ones frizz your hair. Bridges on the other hand let you cross over and visit for a while. It's a tricky thing not to build fences when you think you are building bridges. One gives you a clear view of the other side and one blocks your view.

Let's say that Cal starts testosterone and I run around making rhoid rage jokes in all the threads. I am erecting fences, am I not? If instead I thoughtfully answer any questions that people might ask me? I am building bridges, right?

Or if Cal goes into a thread and speaks about his experience and T and then somebody disputes it? If I wait for Cal to come back in and answer I am building bridges. If I go in and say this is what Cal meant, and you all don't understand Cal blahblahblah.....I am erecting fences.

Ack. Am I even making sense? I hope so. I am still not feeling well and I don't know if these are good examples.


Bingo! Yes, that is what I am trying to speak to above.

Yes. It is great to be protective. I have to wonder at what point do we protect ourselves? What point do we sit on our hands and not jump in but instead let those we love hash it out? I often struggle with this.

Yes. I have had to learn the hard way. At what point am I complicit in the cycle of othering? Of not letting somebody I love figure it out? Of speaking for another human being and taking their voice away?

No disrespect meant to you Oneida, but what is the raodblock you find yourself hitting? How is it that you perceived Sam being chastised when he was asked for clarification around using the word "balls"?

I think that this is an example of how we as Femmes can take ownership of things that belong to butchs/trans people and in the process inadvertently build fences rather than bridges.

I'm not picking on you, I swear. I really just want you to understand it in the spirit of what the thread is about. :rrose:

Thank you for saying this, because it happens.
I am glad you are aware.

That has been my intention when I do this as well but I have found this is sometimes seen as ganging up. I think it's a great ally tactic when directed outside the community at/toward the powers that be but it can possibly lead to a greater us against them type divide when femme allyship voiced in the direction of one group ends up dominating those conversations. I haven't seen you do this but I know I have done it. I think it also may just polarize conversations when the femme gaze of sexual and emotional approval hovers within those conversations.

Maybe others discussing gender stuff are impervious to the pressure of those of the desired gender, but part of my own gender struggles has been the scary question of "can I be entirely authentic and still be desirable and loved?" because that was my own experience, I often wonder if the femme voice in threads regarding pronouns, inter-butch, butch-trans communications ends up raising the stakes and further polarizing those conversations.

I did not use your kid, all i said in a (different)thread that wow he was turning 10 already.

That was NOT to get on your last nerve, since i seem to do that so well.

I never said we were tight, always the opposite.

I dont mean any disrespect and i did not say you were stereotyping ME, it was just in your example.

You can now leave me out of this conversation.

I feel like I have often acted as lubricant too, but I don't think I have ever once been with somebody who acted as my lubricant.

I think Femmes have diverse (and possibly divisive) labels such as Stone Femme, Queer Femme, Lesbian Femme, High Femme, Tomboy Femme, etc.

I don't think the other side of this coin really gets those labels and sometimes I see those labels used to mock femmes (or femmes that make up the "ex" on their personal life's map.)

So I do think that we as a community of self-identified Femmes can demonstrate by doing over talking. :)




I'm not sure how we appropriate Butch/Transguy/Them by being an ally. I think I'm not reading your point correctly on this. Can you expound on it when you are feeling better?





I think that, for me, building a fence is when I tell a butch who id's one way how "all" other butches of another id think/feel/act.

It is honestly something I have to watch myself on because I'm really good at telling other people what other people think.

OMG. I think I just realized something. I've set myself up as a thought translator.

Well that's not good.

I find myself wanting to speak for my homies or my boy and Grant, I don't. OH I want to I really do but truth be told, I am coming from and emotional state and not a logical one. I feel when I come in sword charging it dimisses them and their words and value, so as hard as it is I have to sit back and watch and give only my experience in their lives.

Make sense?

It was an example, the thread was meant to let AtLastHome's thread stay on course.

I should of listened to my inner voice said fuck it and not started it. I thought it would do good.

My apologies.

I knew better.

Aren't responsibility and influence light years apart?

i have seen this in the past -- and in real time. Wives/girlfriends who know more about transitioning than the person who is doing it, who become activists, who pretty much talk to the doctor while their husband/boyfriend sits there. None of these activities in and of itself is appropriation. But i have definitely seen people who have taken it to that level. Not recently and not on here.
-----------

i personally think the thread is a good idea. i think it is possible that femmes have helped build fences. i think i may have put in brick or two myself. And not out of "bullshit human behavior" or intent. So i am interested in this thread.

It's not about taking responsibility for others' relationships. It's about taking responsibility for myself and the effect i have on others.

Kinda weirded out here, June. Not sure how my sexual preferences got wound up in this. I have never once said (although it's been extrapolated all over the place by those that never had the fucking respect to just ask me) that my non-preference to go down on a female lover made me better.

In fact, I can probably find where I've said that it made me worse or broken.

Now, I'm gonna tell you that this has really irked me because you got personal here. I'm going to take a breath and assume that you did so for a reason. However, my own personal hurt is really getting in the way of me seeing what that reason is.

I have never and will never say that someone who likes cunninglingus (receiving or giving) is worse or better than me. Simply different.

Now. If you want to make this about why I don't call myself a lesbian, let's go there. Because I have every right in the world to say that, don't I?

How on earth does my saying I don't like coconut diminish or lessen those who do? HOW?

I realize that you did not state what my preferences were, but I did because I don't much care for the hidden.

You have really got me thinking on this one, Superfemme. I think these types of situations in the context of the outside world may end up carrying over. When I look at my own experiences, I have definitely felt the need, the onus to be protective of the people I have been with when there is somebody scarily homophobic or transphobic bristling in the foreground. I think that may be part of my own hypervigilence and protectiveness. I need to think about this more, but my initial thought is that picking sides and/or championing a side within a butch/transguy context is an act which can polarize our community, whereas acting in a protective way within the heteronormative cis-centric outer world would actually be the right thing to do, especially if doing so may minimize very real risks like violence.

I recently watched a bunch of youtubes of abc's what would you do? series (thank you Lady Snow for posting those links), and I was really horrified to know exactly how many people will not bother to help somebody who is in need of serious help - including homophobic and racist verbal or even physical attack. I think I also read in another thread that you have yourself been in situations where an effective ally would have been handy.

What I got from watching those and reading your posts is that it must be somewhat ingrained in human nature not to help others when they need it and so I think part of being a good and effective ally is to be willing to stand up, support and defend others when they are attacked or in need.

Me too, except for the fact that my Femme friends have often acted as my social lubricant. heh.


Yes, but I don't think they carry the same *gender* connotations for us that they do for our butch/trans counterparts.
Now why is it that the other side doesn't get those labels? Or that the labels are mocked? Are we really going to sell our selves so short to say that when we discuss ourselves we are "over talking"? When there are pages and pages of threads about butch and trans identities and that is ok? That is something we need to examine I think.

I think we appropriate these labels by losing ourselves to some extent. I have never EVER seen a trans guy question themselves and their identities once they started dating a Femme. Have you? I'd fall over if Cal woke up tomorrow and said to me...."Am I a Femme now"? Ha! No. What happens is Femmes struggle with "Am I straight now"?. Femmes also seem to go through the transition process with their beloved. Am I even remotely making sense?

Thought translation and Tarot Reading can't be that far off can they?

I think it makes sense. I think what you are saying is that you speak to them from your *me* place and don't try to super-impose your thoughts onto them as their own? I know this only because you've done it with me in real time.

I am having a completely different read on this thread. I am not at all reading it as Femmes having to be responsible for how butches and trans folks get along. I am reading it as Femmes being a part of the equation though. Neither of us exist in a vacuum. Some Femmes perpetuate the chasm between Butches and Trans Folks. Some Femmes are Butch Avengers and/or Trans Avengers...always ready to leap from a tall building to speak for a Butch or Trans person. To nurture. To save.

Which in the long run doesn't really build a bridge. Or does it? What do you think?

I for one a uber grateful you started this thread. Please don't second guess.

What if we have a Femme in Shining Armor complex and want to ride in on our noble steed and save the day kind of thing going one?

I love your honesty.

[QUOTE=June;130231]Well. We can start threads about anything, which I love. I read your OP yesterday, and then today, and I looked at the other posts, and *I* kept coming back to the same place. "Why am I, as a Femme responsible for the relationships the more masculine folks in this community have?"


I don't think it is a femme thing, I think it is a human thing. there is a kind of paradox that exists with the responsible thing: we are told we don't infulence others, everyone is responisble for themselves. If you let negative stuff bother you it is your problem. But, when we are nice, kind, gentle, accepting, that impacts those around us. everything runs good when people are good. So why, when people are mean do we want to say that should not impact others.
No matter how it should be in a perfect world, we don't live there. Our words and actions influence others. And yet in the end we are each responsible for our own selves. It is not simple or easy, it is complex and deep and full of complexities.

Common sense says that butches/trans impact femmes also, in both good and bad ways. So perhaps thinking about it in terms of humans and how we impact each other takes the "perceived femme responsiblity" out of it.

And really, I would say the same thing to everyone: Be who you are. There are always going to be people who don't like/accept you. You can not please everyone. So look for people who are accepting and kind. They can have any id, cause one's id is not what makes one a mean human. Mean humans are still mean when you strip everything else away.


I didn't come in here to waggle my finger at you, I came in to express an opinion. Besides, I know if I get that finger too close to your evil little mouth, you're gonna bite it off. <3

Not to derail but I'd just like to say that I really appreciate this post June.

So often in an online setting we've been forced to settle for an atmosphere of do as I say, not as I do hypocrisy, and it is refreshing to see you say what you mean and mean what you say.

When the leadership here is willing to practice what they preach it makes us all willing to tow the line and sit up straight.

Kudos.