I'm calling it patriarchy because I believe it is the conditions of the patriarchy (or more appropriately, the kyriarchy) that set in place the circumstances by which women and girls have been oppressed, suppressed and trained in such ways as to "groom" them (hi, Dylan) to be what is considered meek, good, well-mannered, palatable, and presentable - all so that they are more easily controlled.

What about this do you think is specific merely to my situation rather than being patriarchal?

That's kind of rhetorical, by the way.

My momma and daddy raised me to speak my mind, whichever way I choose to.

:cigar2:

*spit*

I reallyreally don't need anyone to protect me from words.

One of the reasons I continue to participate in these forums is I appreciate the rawness of them. How boring the world would be if we all talked and wrote like newscasters.

As far as manners and decorum go, we all know people who have "perfect" manners and slit throats. I appreciate good manners, but I appreciate proven integrity more.

I've also noticed we've(the community "we") have gotten into the habit of referencing apocryphal posts that have existed in threads and may be taken out of context and used to prove points. For me, it's confusing because I don't know the context or intent of the mystery post. Has anyone else felt this way, or does this cheese stand alone? (rlin, I'm not calling you out. It's a trend I'm seeing.)

Your first sentence is confusing. It could mean that you were groomed to be who you are, in which case, you're not leaving much room for the element of personal identity and how it might arise independent of the nurture conundrum. I, too, am a lot of things despite my "grooming." Or it could mean that despite the way you were groomed - to include your infancy/childhood, having to wear dresses, and whether or not you were married/encouraged to marry - you are who you are. Again, it isn't clear. Still, none of this - not one bit - changes the reality that women and female bodied people, and cismen and boys as well - live in a kyriarchical society and are oppressed by the conditions of that society. It effects the way we are raised, and places expectations of behavior onto us out of its power-over paradigm.

So however you, Corkey, became who you are is really irrelevant to whether the patriarchy exists and fully impacts the reality of women and girls every-motherfucking-where. It just does. To say "It's just situational," is a flat out denial of its existence, and that is seriously dangerous thinking.

How exactly can you be 'respectful of femme sensibilities' when it's clear you orbit around no sun but your own?

Meanwhile, back to the topic at hand...

Actually, I don't get the point of this thread. Nowhere are these so-called 'femme sensabilities[sic]' defined.

In fact, I don't think there are such a thing as 'femme sensibilities'. At least, not in the context of what appears to be a conversation about basic manners and common civility. One's gender identification doesn't grant one special privileges or immunities.

talk amongst yourselves anyway you'd like--i don't *prefer* to read ball-talk unless it's *obviously* ironic and that's not because how i do *femme*, that's because 'ball-talk' isn't clever (and that, my friends, is a fate far worse than death).

*to be fair, i have a low tolerance for tedium and anything i deem less than clever.

except, except! when the lady-time got me out of PE in high school (don't take that away from me!!!)

*and i may still try to pull the lady-card when it comes to tidying, feeding the dogs, dishes... (or anything else i would REALLY prefer E to do).

Balls...

I just had to say it again, cause who knew WHO KNEW that would incite all this... Who knew that someone enforcing boundaries would ensue all this..

:praying:

I now see why Worm prefers castles made of blankets and pillows.

:vigil:

I guess I am stuck at the notion of "femme sensibility" being a lady thing that must be protected by someone more masculine than I. It just feels sexist to me. While I may be feminine and appear to be a lady (to the world, maybe to you), these are attributes of mine. They are qualities that reflect something about me. They aren't ME. I'm a small, soft-spoken woman who says "fuck" a lot. And other things which might affect your sensibilities, whatever they may be.

If I don't like how I'm spoken to, I am likely to say something. I hope you would do the same. But, I don't ask people to change to suit me. I may prefer to be in an environment where people mainly treat each other as they would like to be treated, but I don't need or want anyone watching out for my delicate linguistic constitution. In fact, the idea of it is more off-putting to me than using any particular word in any particular context. What is validating and empowering is when I am given the space to respond the way I honestly feel, and where you (the general you) show respect for what I say.

I tend to adjust my behavior, language, etc. based on what I'm doing and who I'm doing it with. I guess I've never thought of this as some weird thing, rather as just basic social skills and respect.

Sometimes I say bad words, use more slang and end sentences with prepositions and other times I don't. And yes, it's totally based on the people involved. Not because I think someone may not be able to "handle" it or that I, in some icky, fucked up way, must "protect" them but just because sometimes it's not appropriate. I'm not going to speak the same way to a client that I would to someone here. I also don't speak to everyone here the same because I don't have the same level of familiarity. I may say something to oblivia that I would never say to Nat or something to Corkey that I'd never say to Hack. I think it's all about social skills, respect levels and appropriateness.

I don't think that I adjust my language much differently around femmes although there probably is a little bit of subconscious old schoolness going on that I'm not fully aware of. I think that's probably more of a respect thing then a protection thing, but I'll have to think about that.

I also don't think I've ever felt the urge to go rushing into a thread out of a need to defend a femme. I don't know any that can't defend themselves.

I am not offended when I read it here, but I have to say that if, my sister, for instance started dropping some crude (in my definition) vocabulary, I would be taken back by it.

My parents cussed and swore alot. Mostly when they argued which was basically very often. The language could be quite crude at best. So I think for me, it triggers bad stuff. My partner has cussed/sworn and I am taken by surprise because it's somewhat rare, but, unless it falls in my crude category, I'm ok with it.

I just never gravitated to using them in conversation on a daily basis.

Ok, so I have been thinking...cuz that's something I do sometimes.

Now while I know very well that femmes can take care of themselves, and can speak their minds, I have to say, it pisses me off when butches act like frat boys (and I say that specifically about butches, because I've never seen femmes do it in the same sexist way I've seen butches do it)...but I especially don't like it when butches do this around femmes. This isn't something new...I've started threads on the topic.

Nat described an event in a previous post. I was the other member who was at that gathering. The behavior was horrible. Now, I've been around butches who act like that when it's just the butches, and it skeeves me out, but when there's a femme friend there it's 100 times skeevier. And while I don't feel a need to 'protect', I do feel more compelled to say something about it. These particular butches' behavior was absolutely ghastly. In fact, that gathering was one of the last times I saw any of those people. It's definitely the last time I saw them as a group. I did say something to the one I knew the best, and she said, "What? We're all girls here." Which is the answer I hate the most...but I have a really hard time with female bodied people (especially...I have a hard time with male bodied people too) acting like complete misogynist assholes under the "What? We are all girls" excuse.

I've been in this position with another butch in which she objectified femmes in the most disgusting way possible...including Mahhh Woman and Lipsy...well and almlst every femme at a couple different gatherings. I'm sorry, but when you stand behind Mahhh Woman and make comments about her bootay,and you talk about her (and other femmes whom I consider friends) like pieces of meat...I'm gonna have a problem with that.

Would I have a problem if I saw femmes do this? I honestly don't know, because I've never heard a group of femmes make the same disgusting comments. And I'm not talking about cussing or being ironically frat boy esque...I'm talking about being misogynistically GROSS.

Also...this whole 'butches and femmes are the same' line of thinking makes me call bullshit. Because if that were the case, wouldn't that just make everyone here a tweener or andro or whatever the correct word of the week is for 'run of the mill average'? Why would we have a 'dance' or 'energy' or 59 bajillion threads on gender breakdowns?

And I'm not talking about rescuing anyone or protecting anyone...I'm talking about misogynistic, piggish, inappropriate talk that always (in my experience) directed at femmes in my community. And I've seen where IF a femme DOES say something they're mocked as 'cute' or 'eyerolled' or literally laughed at.


Hope I'm Clear,
Dylan

And one more thing. I have and will continue to say something in these circumstances or in circumstances where men are involved because I know I will be taken more seriously

FUCKING THANK YOU.....

Maybe just maybe people will read this and knock their bullshit off and stop with their bullshit.

Cause frankly after my last interaction just 5 minutes ago with this kind of fucking experience I am done...

Learn to respect boundaries, it's not that difficult:readfineprint:

whoever reads this thread pay attention to what dylan said up there...
all you folks that bitched and moaned about the opening thread i dare you to find a way to snark his words...
he very eloquently said the blatant truth...
i am sure that several of you may have to posture up and yell about how by god you arent that way... but...
you can not deny the fact that it is true!

Not touching the issue that started this thread...

However, on the subject of Femmes being Ladies and needing to be treated differently? Please do not treat me with kid gloves. Yes there are times for lovely manners and there are times to just be. (ie Funeral V. Hockey Game)

"Just being" for me, does include cursing. A lot of it. :)

Yes, we can take care of ourselves and if we have a problem with someone's language we can tell them off all by ourselves. :) In fact, some of us quite enjoy it. (from me, it will likely be sexist/racist/classist comments, not cursing)

Umm, and there might be times when I might have been/or be piggish discussing other Femmes and/or Butches. Yes, I love a good mind, but....well, you know.

I keep hoping I will grow up and act like a nice Femme Lady is "supposed" to act 24/7, but it seems doubtful at this point. Yeay!

Since my post was in close proximity to Dylan's, I wanted to ask what blatant truth you're referring to, as Dylan made several good points.

For me, "the dance" is about relationship and interaction, sexual and otherwise. We are definitely not the same. But, that doesn't give either of us license to be jerks. What is a mutual expectation is that we treat each other (and others) with respect and kindness. If anyone feels compelled to rally to my defense, or to join in as a voice of support, that's OK with me. But, I would ask that it not be done in a way that's patronizing or condescending. Does that make sense? It's the patronizing stuff that makes it icky, not the show of support.

i have seen femmes giggle at this and make light of it if someone objects. i think a few have even enjoyed it.

Ok, I gotta ask for some clarification on this because I keep looking at it and can't quite figure it out. Are you talking about the whole thread or the posturing part or are you just cheerleading Dylan's post. I'm kind of reading it as we all need to just quit bitching and moaning and get over it.

Granted, I probably would have done it a different way, but I think the overall result of the thread has been a pretty positive conversation about things I haven't often seen discussed. Your comments seem kind of dismissive to me so please help me understand what you're trying to say.

I promise that was not my response.

i think i missed something. Anyway, i am SURE you would never respond that way. :)

I'm definitely *not* arguing with you about your experience...definitely not

In MY experience, I have NEVER seen a femme giggle about it or enjoy it. I have seen a femme try to lighten the mood if ThePig is called out, but I have never seen a femme enjoy it (unless it was her partner saying it to her, but that's a different horse, and none of my business). I've seen femmes sit uncomfortably while some piggish butch made comments about their asses/bippies/outfits/whatnot...but not enjoy.

Again, I'm so not arguing with your experience...just sharing the differences in experiences.


Dylan

A funny story, probably nothing to do with the OP, more with Dylan & Nat's sideways derail kinda..
Several years back, I went to a Halloween party at a friends house, and I wore a corset and..some other things ( I think the over all costume was general gypsy.. ) , nice very stick em up and out there corset...! A couple people came in, that never took off their masks.. While I knew a lot of people there, there was some I didn't, and.. many BF, but some not.. Anyway, these 2 people, were.. really .. overly familiar... and made very lewd comments..so I just moved away.. But it did irritate me.. and I really hated it.
Other thing s were going on, I forgot about it..
Come to find out later, I did actually know one of them.. And I was even angrier.. and surprised, at their behavior, which I guess, was emboldened by the whole no one knows who we are.. blech..
Anyway, no, I don't enjoy it.. Ok, consenting adults playing consensual games, thats a different story..
Oh I forgot.. Sort of the point was.. I presumed, as in assumed, the two people, were "regular as in non BF ple who don't identify as such " Lesbians. The shocking part to me, was that one actually was a Butch.

That is totally not cool.

a little of the clarification you asked for...


earlier when i pointed to dylans post i was in some weird spot in my head that was just saying 'hells yeah' really loudly...

he said a lot of what was in my head very thoroughly and well... i obviously couldnt do it...

i have read several very insightful posts here... many from folks of the femme persuasion that i appreciated immensely...

i had read too many posts from folks that refused to see or hear the parts where i said that i in no way thought a femme was weak or helpless or in need of rescue...

i was amazed at how many had to speak up and say that this was an absurd topic because by god they werent that way so it must not exist...

i saw dylans post as very easy to understand and so well said that it was unarguable...
and... yeah... i know not all of it applies to not everyone... but... enough of it was what i wanted to point out that i got all giddy and shit and had to give it a big hell yeah!

thanks yall for the thought you have provoked...
a lot of us do not respect femmes the way we should...
a lot of us are guilty of pushing ourselves on or above a femme without thought...
if this helps anything... i welcome the idiocy i was exposed to for broaching the subject...

thanks yall...

p.s.
i feel i should apologize for being in my own head for most of my posts in this thread... i sometimes have a hard time getting my thoughts to words... i know that i cant expect everyone to understand what the hell i am trying to get at...hell maybe i shouldnt expect anyone to get it...
no one else knows i am in actuality a stand up kinda person that just likes to look at stuff from a lot of different directions... even a lot of them that arent and never would be mine own... everyones opinions count to someone...
sometimes i like to try to find out why...

Well maybe we are imagining different levels of piggish behavior.