Ditto Bulldog !!

yes. I know plenty of men of any/all origins or aren't even slightly butch-as-adjective. In fact two of my closest men friends are giant queens. And manly as all get-out. And still very much the male they have always been no matter what their starting point was.

Butch, for many, is a gender - regardless. some people I know that physically transition into their very own gender and sex (not exactly male sex, but something else entirely) still see one of their genders as butch as their sex still encompasses something partially female.

So I can see the crossing of why some still claim the gender.

But I can see/understand the very clear logic of why many do not.


I personally don't tend to see FtM as butch. Unless they tell me they are because of the variety of their sex(transition and head space) (FtQ a term a couple of my friends use and how I separate it in my own head).

again, it's not up to me though. it's where they live. I have no say in that.

That may very well be for you, but that is not the case for many male id'd butches. For some maybe, but for others it is not at all the case. What I don't understand is why, on a forum that claims to accept the way everyone chooses to identify, there seems to be so many ready to explain to male id'd butches what they should be. And yet for most other id's, when a poster does this they're jumped on for not accepting the way a person chooses to identify.

I explained in my first post why I retain stone butch as a part of my identity. If you want the run down again, then here it is: I have never identified as a lesbian, a woman or female despite what some people like to tell me. Since early childhood I unquestioningly thought of myself as male. Not just "a boy," or "a man," but of the male sex. The only time in my life I ever even attempted to believe in any god was when I was 7 years old praying that I'd wake up one morning to find that it had all been a dream and that my body would be changed to what I always saw it to be.

Needless to say, that didn't happen. From that early I age I'd also always been attracted to women, which became a problem for me because there was no explanation for me (the word lesbian never worked for me), for what I was, for how I could continue to live my life. Middle school people start coming out as lesbians, bisexual etc. Women attracted to other women, and that brought me even more confusion and delayed my entrance into the queer community for quite a long time because I didn't feel it was the place for me. In many respects I still feel like it continues to put a wedge in between me and the community. I was not a woman attracted to other women. I did not want to be in a relationship where I was recognised as a woman, have an anatomy I detested in myself be recognised.

When I first came across the term stone butch it had been the closest term, at that time, that described who I was as far as what appeared to be sexual boundaries. It told me that I was not the only one who had been born with female genitals who did not want to be touched in a way that I deemed as feminizing (and since I know people have scoffed at that word in stone butch threads in the past, I'll put it more plainly: touched in a way that recognises genitalia I wish I'd never been born with). I know there are many different ways stone butches see their identity, and many won't agree with me on my perspective on my own identity. It gave me a means to understand myself at a time when I'd never met anyone who felt the same way; who was born with female genitalia, who was attracted to women, but who did not consider themselves female, woman etc. but male. I always had a strong aversion to the term FTM or transsexual because to me, even with surgery or hormones, it didn't recognise that I was already male in mind. It would never be a transition for me because my mind is a bigger definer, to me, of who I am than my body. I kept that as a part of my identity as a testament to the first thing that began to make some sense of me as far as my sexual orientation. As far as I applied it to myself, stone butch has never meant lesbian or woman, though I've always understood that some who identified a such did see themselves that way. To me, as far as I applied it to me, that was never how I saw it. To this day I still can't give an answer as to my sexual orientation because I don't have a clear cut answer. My brain tells me I'm a straight male born into something else that does not have a name for me (wanted to edit and clarify this before someone jumps on it...maybe this will make more sense: I feel like I'm straight according to my own perceived sex (male) and who I'm attracted to (women, more specifically femmes), yet also feel a part of the queer community. My attraction is to femmes and I honestly don't know what to call that beyond "I'm attracted to femmes." So my sexual orientation is simply someone of the male persuasion who is attracted to femmes if you want to call it anything...which makes me feel like I should just do away with defining my sexual orientation all together. While I can define my brain's sex and my gender, defining my sexual orientation has never been something that has come easily to me). If that makes me crazy and dillusional go ahead and think that of me. I don't care anymore.

Not all FTMs get bottom surgery. They may get their gender marker on their id changed to M instead of F, get top surgery, go on T, but many haven't gone as far as bottom surgery. The whole point of the surgery is to bring your body in line with your mind...the neurological sex (which means sex is not as clear cut as we once thought, considering there are both biological and neurological components) has always been male. Why is it that people always take the physical body as more indicative of sex when the brain is also an indicator of sex. What happens to someone who does not have the opportunity or resources to go on testosterone, to get surgery? They have to submit to the world's interpretation of their sex just because the world can't crack open their skull and take a look inside? We have to be called women and female and dillusional until we have the money not to?

This comment makes it sound like male id'd butches are jumping between male and female worlds out of convenience, that they have a choice. Sure I have a choice. I have the choice to keep my job or to be out on my ass, jobless, homeless, in debt and even further away from surgery than I am now. I can tell my mother ten thousand times that I am male and it doesn't mean she'll accept that. Maybe she will one day. I first told her that when I was 4. At least she doesn't hate me. And many FtMs go through the same thing with their families telling them they aren't male despite the fact that they've gone on T, they've got the surgery, the gender legally changed etc. I don't have the "option" to have my foot in both worlds right now. I can barely use any fucking public washroom. At work I just get "friendly" mockery. That's the hand that's been dealt to me right now and I'm doing everything I can to be able to change that financially. But I need to go through "hell" to get to something better, so maybe part of that "hell" is not being recognised by this community either. I'm 25 years old, still paying off thousands in student loans while hoping to go back to school again and so put myself in debt...again, work my ass off in a full-time job that isn't going so great because of the economy, and trying to generally survive. Top surgery is right at the top of the list of priorities right now next to making enough money to live. I also recently got hired at a job that I won't be able to take time off from until next year, which is also a very physical job so I would have to take time off after top surgery. And because of the hours I work (and soon adding school to that again) I can't even go to therapy or support groups (I love the support group here for that reason. Thank you to all the regular guys there for accepting me into the group. You have no idea how thankful I am). Yeah, I know it's all excuses, same old sob story blah blah blah but honestly it's something that's going to take time and effort for me. I know it'll come eventually. I have to deal with life as it is for me right now. The comment suggests that I like and want to still be able to present as female to some people. That I'm somehow oh so "lucky" to have that "privilege" of being denied who I am by other people every day. Oh joy, oh bliss, don't hold your breath as I thank my lucky stars.

Luckily I have good friends that do recognise me, and luckily I also manage to pass decent enough walking down the street/going about life, though my spirit still sinks when I'm recognised as female by a random stranger, or when I get the 20 questions by random strangers on "what the fuck are you".

The point of this little outburst (not typically inclined to such outbursts or getting riled by much of anything but getting tired of the same old broken record spiel) is to try to clarify some things, and apparently people only hear you when you rant. I'm not asking for pity. I'm not asking for sympathy. I'm not even asking for anyone's help in any of this because I can deal with my own shit and take responsibility for my own shit. I'm not asking for anything except that at least in the queer community people would stop telling me that I'm dillusional, insane, a woman, a female and everything I've never understood myself to be; that it doesn't matter what I say or do I'm always what you think I am. As if I need anymore help in feeling trapped in this life. But I'm starting to think even that's too much to ask, so forget it. I'm not even asking that. If everything you all wrote is what you think, hell you've got that right and I certainly won't take it from you since I do believe everyone should have the right to their own thoughts and beliefs. But I also have the self-given right to reply whether anyone else chooses to give a rat's ass or not...so there you have it. I also have the feeling this will be interpreted as me being oh so terribly offended by other's thoughts. Not so. Like I said, we can all think what we want. Just annoyed at the same old song and dance, but ultimately I know, more and more, that maybe acceptance isn't something I should care enough to look for anymore.

Deviant - I think you make good points. There are a lot of terms, IDs, and definitions and different people define them differently. It is confusing. Over the years the names and labels have changed for me. Now that I am taking T I struggle with how to identify myself and what word or words to use that will communicate how I identify. I think that many people find it a struggle to ID who they are internally out in the world because the large majority of people don't know the differences or nuances, they might just see lesbian, gay, bi and know a little about trans.

Many know little about the differences between sex and gender, even. I'm not totally sure what you mean by claim those IDs in the real world because most people in the real world have little to no knowledge of these IDs. What does a male Id'ed butch check on an application form because there is no box with this ID available.

If their paperwork says Female then they have no choice but to check female otherwise HR is going to start asking questions. Personally. I don't correct people when they call me he or she. In any given day I can be called she 5 times and he five times by various people I come in contact with. Neither he or she really fits, neither does gay or lesbian. These are the terms people apply to me to try to fit me into their concepts of gender and sexuality.

I don't correct the wait staff who call me she because its a waste of energy for me. I dont care how they address me. For some, though this is an important issue and they will correct people they come in contact with. So even these types of things vary from person to person. We are butting up against language limitations, traditional ideas of gender and sex, lack of knowledge of most people about gender and sex, rigid systems of paperwork that require an either/or answer and all paperwork must align. I'm only on my third shot of T but all these issues have come up as I work on this "transition"

Rufus

If you'd bothered to read my whole post you'd actually get the answer to your question about me claiming my id in the real world. No I don't say "hey guys, I'm a male id'd butch, ask me how!" I simply say that I'm male because male is what I am. I can't put a gun to their head and get them to call me what I call myself, and I shouldn't have to. They have just as much of a right to their opinion as I do. And I have a right to defend myself. Here people tend to "get it" (or so I thought) more, so I thought I might be able to say something about my history. My bad.

If you'd read the post, you'd also have read that I don't care if you accept me or not. I don't believe in blind acceptance. I'm not asking you to blindly accept me. Think whatever you want, but like I said in my last post, I also have the right to respond. You gave your reasons why you don't see me as male. I responded to those claims.

I'm not even going to bother because you obviously didn't even bother to read my post. But for the record, this is why I feel the need more and more to separate myself from the LGBT community. Because you're always what other people want you to be. Many lesbians tell you you need to be a lesbian, because you supposedly only think you're male because society pressures you to be, or because you think masculine = male (I'm not that dense, thank you) or because people are pressuring you to transition (quite the opposite). Others tell you you aren't male because you weren't born with the right genitals. Others tell you you don't belong in this community because you're very existence isn't compatible with feminism and the LGBT community. Society tells you you're not even human. Not sane. Not normal. Not this. Not that. I'm tired of being told I don't exist. I'm tired of being shot at from all fronts.

I'm not telling you who you are or who you should be. Sure go ahead and give your opinion on the subject, but don't expect me not to give my opinion back. The problem I have with your perspective is that your perspective, were it reality, would deny people the right to be themselves all because they choose not use the same terminology you do. And yeah, while you have the right to make that claim, I have the right to speak against it.

As for the differences between FtMs and male id'd butches, the point myself and others were making before is that, depending on the individual, there may very well not be a clear cut difference. It depends on the individual because not everyone sees their identity the same way.

Rufus, what you are explaining covers much of what many of my friends describe. They don't really have a label, I don't see them stretching for one, no one I know actually cares what those labels are. As far as I'm concerned is Nat, jim, Cee, Balla, Leng etc genders and sexes and their pronouns aren't really one that exists. They get to say where their transition stops and starts, since they are neither male or female. Some take T, some other have their chests reduced, some have both. Some do neither. Some stop and start.

I don't think any of them use the word butch that I'm aware of. Most of them just use genderqueer as an umbrella term and fuck the specifics, they aren't really needed - at least, no one I know has been arsed enough to try and tell me what theirs are if they have one and I really don't care about their ID, I'm more interested in how they are, what they been up to, if they are busy next thursday. This is probably why I get confused about the term male ID'd butch.

Usually when one goes to a genderqueer club, it's a rainbow of gender and sexes with no two being exactly alike.

that has nothing to do with paperwork and living in the realities of HR nightmares though where you have to pick male, female or transgender (at least public service has put this box on at the very least).

thanks for the help in figuring out why I get so confused by this board when in person I'm not even slightly confused.

The HBSOC isn't a law, it's a guideline. I don't believe Michael was stating his opinion as if it were law. I know that he just believes very much in those guidelines and their effectiveness. As is his right. You're certainly entitled to feel any way you choose about the HBSOC, however, calling my husband judgmental is making it personal. IMHO

Some gates needed to be tended. IMHO

I still am unclear as to whether you are transitioning or not, which doesn't really matter. I do however associate the term BUTCH with woman/female. (pertaining to this topic). I know that many have different views/opinions and that is their right. I am respectful when I am around butches who want to be called male pronouns. I would not knowingly disrespect someone by intentionally calling them by a pronoun different than what they've chosen for themselves. Whether or not they use them in the real world or not.

I guess I have a hard time understanding why someone who is taking T and considers themselves male and prefers male pronouns would still want to hold on to the label of 'butch' since labels supposedly are stupid and mean nothing, then why not drop it? Not at all trying to be snarky here, genuinely would love someone to answer that for me.

Hmmm...how can one expect the world outside of the GLBT community to
accept our individuality when we ourselves can not embrace our own?

I may walk with a friend down the same path and share the same experiences but I do not expect that friend to come away with the same views, thoughts, feelings...memories. How can I...we do not share the same eyes nor the same heart.

I value the differing opinions on the subject because I want to know...does not mean we should be passing judgment on an opinion for being different. There is no right and wrong here...

[QUOTE=Deviant;174786]The HBSOC isn't a law, it's a guideline. I don't believe Michael was stating his opinion as if it were law. I know that he just believes very much in those guidelines and their effectiveness. As is his right. You're certainly entitled to feel any way you choose about the HBSOC, however, calling my husband judgmental is making it personal. IMHO

Some gates needed to be tended. IMHO



I still am unclear as to whether you are transitioning or not, which doesn't really matter. I do however associate the term BUTCH with woman/female. (pertaining to this topic). I know that many have different views/opinions and that is their right. I am respectful when I am around butches who want to be called male pronouns. I would not knowingly disrespect someone by intentionally calling them by a pronoun different than what they've chosen for themselves. Whether or not they use them in the real world or not.

I guess I have a hard time understanding why someone who is taking T and considers themselves male and prefers male pronouns would still want to hold on to the label of 'butch' since labels supposedly are stupid and mean nothing, then why not drop it? Not at all trying to be snarky here, genuinely would love someone to answer that for me.



It isn't your place to decide for others, you don't have the authority. Opinion only goes so far. You can ask but Ender doesn't owe you an answer, your opinion doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things in his world, or for that matter mine.

good question. No one I know in London who uses soley he, uses T and considers themselves soley male (sex, not gender) considers themselves butch.

It only seems to be the people I know who use T and consider themselves a mix of male and female (sex) and entirely their own category (gender) still use that word as messy inaccurate short hand but they aren't married to the ID. Many use Boi.

I'm guessing that's different here....

I personally don't have anything invested (read: policing the term butch. It's not my job and I don't care) in keeping it a female (sex, not gender) only term. it's just I don't know of any people who consider themselves exclusively male (sex, not gender) and still call themselves butch. But I assume I'm about to be educated.

Sorry, for those who do. I'm not expecting you to educate me. it's just pure naive ignorance on my part. Willing and happy to be corrected.

So here is my .02 on the whole damn issue and if it pisses people off so be it... I believe 100% in the Harry Benjamin SOC, and it pisses me off that so many therapists/physicians are getting away from it. I don't think that anyone not planning on transitioning should be allowed hormones. Period. [/COLOR][/B]


Really, I think you two need to look over each others posts and answer this.

Gatekeeping is so passe'

Corkey - self made man joined this site a month before you did. When someone joins has no bearing. Many of us have been over this same topic many times but, speaking for myself, it helps me learn. I still need to go over it many more times and have no answers or easy answers to any of the gender issues or questions that come up. My ID has changed over the years too just like it has for many people on this site. Its a long journey for all of us and the questions never end and the answers and points of view are all different depending not just on who you talk to but when you talk to them. I still have questions and confusions about all these topics and I've been at this table for many years.

Rufus

Some gates needed to be tended. IMHO

In answer to Deviant.....your words.

Moderating

Hold up, please...

Some of the exchanges here are getting entirely too personal, hurtful, and disrespectful.

At this time, I suggest taking a 24-hour posting break if you know you are typing in an angry state. And we all know when we are doing that...

One of the expectations here is that we remain considerate and respectful of all members. That does not mean we all see eye-to-eye or that we even come close to agreeing, but it does mean that we disagree as respectfully as possible. And sometimes it means just agreeing to disagree.

Again, if you feel pretty pissed right now, please take a break from the website.

Thinker (moderating)

So then....what do you all think of a third gender? If a third gender
exists, then the rules of each specific gender do not inherently apply
nor do the rules of switching from one gender to the other.

oh I'm not asking for justification! Not my bed. lol.

Corkey... I know you are trying and I actually really appreciate your effort but I'm afraid I'm still slightly confused. I respect your tie to the word and your proud use of it, that I can hear in your tone. Basically, you are what used to be called TG Butch in my Old Use Dictionary. Fair enough. That use of butch I understand. So far from what I've read from others TG Butch = Male ID'd Butch. No rug ripped out from under me yet.

I'm feeling archaic and I'm not even 45...

Thanks for helping me out, I know it's not your job.

Why, exactly should that gate be tended? What is it's supposed "effectiveness."

Please show me where exactly I wrote that "labels supposedly are stupid and mean nothing." It's far more complicated than that. I answered the precise questions you're asking now in the post you chose not to read. I wrote some four paragraphs on why I continue to hold on to the term "stone butch" and why I don't see that term as equatable with "woman" or "female" for myself. On top of that I also expained why I have an aversion towards the words "transition," "FtM" and "transsexual." I'm not going to sit here and type out another huge post directed at you, that you problably won't even read.

But in case you're still interested: http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...1&postcount=43

I can't help but laugh for personal reasons when you make the comment of "only voice your opinion if it is the popular one" since I'm generally the master of unpopular opinions it seems. It's all in how you stage your argument, and if you're argument is one that blatantly disrespects others, don't expect respect back. Can't also help but be amused at your claim about "temper tantrums" and "mudslinging".

When I stated that my problem with your perspective was that it would require that if it were followed in the real world people would not have the freedom to make decisions about their own bodies or to generally be themselves, that was not mudslinging...that was following a logical train of thought. Please explain how I was supposed to deduce otherwise when you claim that only people who, by your own definition, plan to "transition" should be given testosterone.

actually you did, Ender. Apologies. I hadn't taken your answer into consideration for some unknown reason in my head, you get your very own category. lol. Aren't you special!

is there? that's fucking embarrassing :blush: whoops - I was asking as well. Thanks for that, I'll just slink off and read those... I should have been a bit more diligent in reading if I'm going to post...
I feel like I just trod in someone's cake and asked them where the cake was...