yeah, i hear that one a lot, too ... on days when i'm really lucky! ;)

I certainly don't think of my gender identity as a label. To quote someone from somewhere, labels are for soup cans.

I do agree with the Wicket- "Butch doesn't box me in - it allows me to be free to be me." And yes our identities is the major reason for how we all found each other here in this community in the first place.

'femme' doesn't box me in ... it just doesn't fit. it's not who i am.

I know you are a proud Mother, but......
 

When I was foot loose and fancy free, I saw the Diva, and did not think of it in that manner.. Maybe Holy Mother of G....Phew..or whose the hot MAMA in town...well, just sayin...that Red Dress

yer lil Punkin ;)

http://redhotmamawine.com/images/red...ama_border.jpg

What a lovely compliment! Thank You so much, precious Punkin Head! ;)


~Diva (LOVIN' that graphic! I stole it! <giggle> )

semantic breakdown, yo
 

you make some really good points ...

i think there is a definite difference between a label and a descriptor.

we can label someone "butch" ... or we can describe them as "manly", "masculine", etc.

we can label someone "femme" ... or we can describe them as "feminine", "girly", etc.

just because a queer woman is very feminine doesn't make her femme.

Mister Bent I certainly agree with you. I don't find the term label to be meaningful at all. The only ways I have really ever heard it used is people asking me why I need a label or people saying they don't need a label. Well for me label has no useful meaning or connection to what my gender identity is. It simply doesn't apply.

I think of label as outside-in. People are making a determination/judgment and trying to define something/someone.

I think of gender identity as inside-out: it is something that is hard won that comes from within myself that gets presented out into the world- whether it be through presentation, finding community (like this site), like minded friends, lovers and partners that compliment my gender identity among other things, and of course the never ending journey of self discovery in all its various, multi-faceted forms. Label plays no part.

It is also very true that someone can look "butch" or look "femme" and not identify that way at all.

I also know that some people find gender identities like butch and femme to be constraining or to not adequately describe who they are. For me butch is not constraining. My personal meaning comes from within, it is not imposed from outside. However, for others butch and other gender identities might be constraining or limiting. I do understand and respect that. I just get bafffled when they equate that to having a label. I don't have a label.

At one point, a label was something important to me - only because it seemed important for other people to categorize me. I could care less about labels now. I still use the femme label, but only for descriptive reasons. Other than that, I'm just me doing my own thing, and I am totally okay with that again.

It seemed that the label phenomenon was more of a burden. Now, I no longer feel confined or strapped to the perceptions of other people's stereotypes.

I respect everyone for who they are, no matter what they are or how they define themselves. I have always been the kind of woman who believes "be who you are and not who people expect you to be."

Thank you for listening.
:soapbox: <-- minus the angry rant ;)

You say bitch like it's not a label unto itself. ;)

You're cracking me up today!

:fart:

Label Schmabel but if you must know I am Transgendered not FTM, YET

Hello Donna! I'm Sue :floatbee:

I dunno Words. Ever since I saw those pictures of you in butch shorts...... Jus' sayin'! :eyebat:

This resonates with me. First off, since I spent twenty years living in French, the word "femme" just means "woman" to me. My gender, but not my sexual identity. But beyond that, it just doesn't seem to fit. If ever I come up with a descriptor I'm comfortable with, I'll use it. But really the point is that I simply don't feel the need to. Believe me, it would have been easier many, many times to simply say I was femme. But if you can't be true to yourself in describing your identity........ well?

I've been asked to justify my presence in the b-f community. I'm attracted to masculine women. Other than that, should I need to justify my presence? (and obviously I'm not talking about THIS site!)

Sue :bouquet:

I got sick of being told that I am this or that.. I just made it wicked easy on everyone i am a desbian... (desiree + lesbian=) I am not changing for anyone or explaining myself for anyone for that matter. Take me or leave me :P

hmmm, guess this makes me a bootsbian...I'm ok with that!

I dont live my "mainstream" life consistently vocally pushing my sexual, political, moral, or religious identity...well, not as a general practice.
So, while I'm socializing in queer circles how useful is it to know that I id as Butch? I'm partnered, I'm not dating or searching for my "other".
While socializing in hetero circles, how important is it to let people know I id as Butch? While cultivating my career, how important is it to identify to my employer as Butch?

I am searching for kindness, like-hearted people. People who serve their greater community in some capacity. People who care about other people.

I think identifying as a particular gender or aligning with a specific descriptor is a jumping off or a starting place. Its a place that we can seek validation or understanding from like people. Its a start to understanding a shared experience. And perhaps a signal to the world that people engage their lives in such a wide array of ways.

So for me, its a descriptor that points me, incrementally, toward a general direction in understanding someone and in helping them to understand a facet of me.

Labels of me are for other people. To me I am just me. I do not feel like a commodity to be bought or sold therefore I need no label. I try to identify with someone through my experience on a heart level. I am a conglomerate of all my life experiences if any of those should help another human feel "apart of" along the way, then both of lives are richer for having known each other.
On a side note I do have and am attracted to those with bootsbian tendency. :winky:

"I am a conglomerate of all my life experiences."

Yes.

This is where I struggle with labels and identity politics. The sum of me is more than my label or gender identity or sexuality or age or ________ (fill in the blank).

"Labels of me are for other people."

Yes. And they are often used as much to count us out, as to count us in. When we label each other based on one set of parameters of an identity, we often cease listening, or valuing the experiences of others. In saying so, I don't remove myself from accountability - I know for certain I have done it. As a result, sometimes I prefer to not look for the labels we wear in these online forums, so that I can read the words of another without bringing that baggage with me - "of course she would say that, she's _________ (fill in the blank)."

Perhaps it is personal evolution or perhaps it is just getting older that brings me to where I feel I have come full circle, regarding "labels, identifiers, rainbow badge of courage" . The "learning the rules" so I can then forget them, so to speak.

When I first learned about using the web to network and reach out of my sense of isolation ( feelings of being misunderstood or having no intimately familiar community in "real time" ) , I also learned of ALL of the different words used to describe the different facets of people. This was especially difficult to navigate within "gender choice positive" communities such as the butch-femme welcoming sites.

I was no longer just a dyke. I was no longer just a lesbian. No longer just a freak who liked S/m. I found a whole brand spanking new set of "words" that helped me describe not only who I am, but what I like, am attracted to, want to spend energy being near. I found the words that for me, helped describe both physical and some mental/ emotional/ sexual and social attributes and I took them on more as a way to find "like minded" individuals than as necessarily a box I wanted to stay in.

I chose the nic SyrJess as a way to say " I am a masculine female Top" , because at that time, it was important for me in my seeking others within both gender choice positive space and BDSMers to form community with. I always used Syr to mark the difference between being a masculine woman and an FTM. It worked for me for years.

As I have grown older and hopefully wiser, I no longer feel that same "driven" desire to adamantly express "who I am" and the need to be seen as valued for my "labels". Yes, I'm still a big ole butt spanking butch, however today there is only one butt I want to spank and she knows I am "butch" so I don't feel a need to "advertise" any longer... LOL.

Do I want to be "seen" and/or valued for being Butch/ Top/ Stone/ masculine/ female ? Absolutely. I feel today however, it is more important for me to be valued by ME first. "Me".. free of labels and qualifiers/ identifiers. I am learning to be the sum of all those parts and not just a fraction of them.

It has been and I am sure will continue to be, a " very strange trip" indeed.

Its been an amazing transformation - and I am humbled to stand beside you as you have moved through this part of your evolution and to see you love you as I have been so blessed to do.

Change is not easy, especially for ole :goat:. Its downright scary. It takes so much courage to walk the road you've been on and I am so very proud to be your wife.

Sorry for the derail, folks. I just couldn't let this pass without acknowledging.
Back to your regularly scheduled program!

Woman, I am gonna stalk you forever :heartbeat: :heartbeat::heartbeat:

I understand. but Words, the only time my ID seems to matter is on-line. If I go to the pub with a varient ammount of genderqueer, butch, femme, trans, feminine queer ...wotever... no one asks me how I ID. nor do I ask them. I know a lot a people here, and I only know how a few of them ID. It's really none of my business what their gender is, what their sexual expression is. I know they are queer, I know we talk about queer stuff, but the ID stuff just rarely comes into it, in person. I know who's kinky by feel (the majority of my aquaintances and friends) and we occationally mention what new store opened or what new device was great, but other than that... I don't really talk about the details of our sexual relationships except with my closest of friends (who is straight and vanilla). No one asks me details like that either.

The power play that occurs in our relationship, no one really knows about, not because we'd be judged - god no, as far as I know most of my friends do similar things (by off hand comments) but it's just not typical pub type convos and I don't think anyone gives a shite and frankly, doesn't want to know which way one of us was tied up last tuesday.

the furthest I have to consider anyone's ID is their pronoun. that's it. other than that it's pretty much... an internal matter for them and me. How they see a movie, what art they did, if we are going to queer theater sports, what did they think of the paint colour, how much overtime they worked... really has nothing to do with what gender/ID they are. So it doesn't really matter.

the very deep conversations I have with close friends... that's different. but at that point I know their internal dialogue. I understand, accept and care for them. Their gender/ID and sexuality still don't matter (my closest friends: two straight girls, one queer gal, two femme ID'd gals and two gender blenders) but I at least understand their background and what they think are important.

I just don't need to know how they ID. Don't really care.

but That may be because I'm in london. When I was in Oxford and felt very isolated and very *very* different with one person who understood my gender politics and history, I was for more concerned with how people ID'd. Probably because I needed to connect with people I hoped would be "More like me."

Very happy to see you here! Have missed your voice!

Hugs!

and I never cared how you ID..lol and I still am not sure I know! and prolly won't ask

btw, here's yer sheep :sheep:

behhhh!!

Good lord is that Morrisey bleating away...?

http://smokenmirrorsblog.files.wordp...09/12/hoof.jpg

I like that one, after just now coming out I am still trying to figure out the whole clothes and labeling thing. I believe that you should not label yourself. You love who you love and at that is all. I would love to see people just go with feelings. I also do not like the idea that if you dress more "girly" you are considered femme. I dress in what I feel comfortable in, may it one day be a nice cute shirt and some nice pants or the next day a hoodie and baggy jeans. I am not trying to impress anyone with my looks, as long as I know I feel good about myself then I that is what I am most concerned about. And yes that whole mom label though is me, which is what I want people to see first and foremost.

I am not one for labels either...I am "just me"...lol I love my t-shirts,tank tops and jeans...but I also loveeee my lacy bras, thongs,tight fitting cleavage showing tops and a equally nice fitting pair of jeans with matching belt and shoes...lmao

As long as you are happy and comfortable I say !!!

labels
 

i am kinda new to the out of the closet so to speak( 6 years). I would be consider a femme by most who dont know me. But i am more then that I love the outside and sports and like getting dirty. But i also love my heels and dresses. I think everyone is more then just a label because most labels dont address all of you. That my humble opinion.

For me, and me alone, I don't like labels. I am me. I know who and what I am. I just have fought harder than most have because of my horrible childhood. I respect each and everyone for who and what they are. You never know what journey we each have lived through. And what cards we were delt in life.

Andrew

label
 

i was talking to friends and found out i was one of the only femmes they know that does not carry a purse. Dont know why i would need one only thing u need is a bank card, driver license, and your phone pockets are big enough for these things.
:harley:
ok i just think that this harley cute:ballerina:

First Person in the World to be Declared Officially Genderless

Norrie May-Welby is recognized as gender-neutral by Australian authorities, making history in the process.

Happy to live life as neither a man nor a woman, Norrie May-Welby, a sex and gender diverse activist in Sydney, dedicated a lot of time fighting for equal rights. Now, in a groundbreaking move, Australia has made history by acknowledging that May-Welby is indeed gender-free, issuing legal documentation, stating so.

Born as a man, May-Welby was raised in Scotland before emigrating to Australia as a child. Undergoing a sex change operation at the age of 28, he became a woman but was still desperately unhappy so she decided to stop her hormone treatments and live a genderless existence. "I haven't taken hormones for about 20 years, preferring my body and brain to be as they are naturally," it states on the 48-year-old's website.

While the British expat was content, zie (the new legally correct gender-neutral pronoun) had no legal documentation to reference when queried about the issue of sexuality, reports the Times of Malta. With a passport, stating 'female' yet having undergone a sex change operation to become a man, this was naturally confusing, not to mention embarrassing. So having applied to the New South Wales Registry of Births, Deaths and Marriages in Sydney asking for a 'Sex Not Specified' Recognition Certificate (similar to a birth certificate) finally May-Welby received the paperwork zie had been lobbying for, and the acceptance that went with it.

A spokesman for the UK's Gender Trust said they were fully in support of the decision by the Sydney authorities and hoped that others around the world would follow suit. "Many people like the idea of being genderless," they said, according to Britain's the Telegraph. While May-Welby is still coming to terms with the new found fame, zie remains hopeful of the future ahead for genderless people around the world: "It surprised me to be told I am the first to get such documentation, zie said, adding, "but I know I won't be the last."

Because I was questioned twice about my "identity" spot in the side profile. Not that I have to explain but maybe this will clear things up.

As I said earlier in the thread labels feel confining to me, not that they can limit me, I just no longer have the same desire to present myself as or label myself in such a "defined" way as I have in "Stone Butch" for about a decade and a half. Maybe it's because we change and grow over time, and moreso how we view things change sometimes more than who we are.

No matter what I label my "identity" here, I still can strip down and rebuild engines, roof a house and am a hardcore motorcycle lovin' jeans and tee, boot wearin' queer female who loves mimosas and a bubble bath, yep... all my life... label no label, doesn't change a damn thing.

Besides there's too much crap all over defining this and that and drawing perimeters and I don't like living under the shadows others cast, I define myself. If anyone cares to know more they'll ask how I "identify". I'm just everyday people (well, maybe not quite but...)

If it's all about the identity labels for some here and not getting to know people as individuals, I don't know what to say except sorry bout yer bad luck.

Hell... I was just a hardcore dirt bike tomboy crushing on girls growing up and now maybe I'm just a full grown hardass tomboy who's attracted to femmes (of which I have one of my very own ;)). Now there's a fucked up label... hmmm who knows... maybe I like that one... but really, who cares?

Again I see them as important, needed, useful, celebration worthy and necessary for some especially in this community... to each their own, who ever you are just be who you need to be, just that for me I feel like I've out lived some of the usefulness of mine for myself. I still feel as connected to this community as ever, because of my experience and my life today and future.

That is all,
Metropolis

Labels are completely a preference thing