I think I have a good sense of humor and I happen to love satire, but I did not find this amusing one bit. I found it offensive simply because it's offensive, not because I'm guilty of it or have some sort of denial on the subject. Your statement is um, dangerous to imply regarding the general public.

Thank you so much for taking the time to clarify this Organic, we see it differently and that's cool.

Thank you again for taking the time to explain :)

You are correct. I can see how that would be offensive. In my head I was thinking of it as a a homophobic person that is afraid of their own feelings but it doesn't apply to this. My bad.

That's a good point about the college girls. They are portrayed as fucktoys. They are drunk and to be fucked by whomever (even older lesbians). That's actually probably the most misogynist thing in the whole video- more so than than the lesbian stereotypes.

Joe has been on my shit list for 2 months and a day. I'm not the least bit surprised he posted this.

Except it wasn't really a satire about lesbians, cougars or predation. If this is, in fact, a satirical work (and even so, could easily be transformed into something it was not intended to be), then it is not being satirical about lesbians, cougars and predation, but about those who perpetuate misrepresentations and stereotypes. It does not accurately represent lesbians, because it may very well not mean to, if, in fact, it is a satire highlight the existence of misrepresentation and stereotypes...I repeat: the target is not lesbians in such a case. I keep bolding this because the responses to what I've written continued to be offended responses that do not correlate at all with what I've actually written.

If it was necessary for you, then what exactly do you think continuing the cycle achieves? I am not talking about politeness. I am talking about perpetuating a certain type of behaviour: stripping away someone's dignity as a woman/man for the purpose of humiliating them simply because you do not agree with them for whatever reason. If you want to be rude, go ahead, but why do you see fit to bring one's sex into the equation? What do you achieve beyond venting your own anger? It certainly doesn't change anything. If we ever want this kind of thing to stop, it should start with us.

Speaking of Irony
 

So you see nothing wrong with a video that strips away the dignity of women (among other things) but chastize someone that you think is doing that here?

you said "stripping away someone's dignity as a woman/man for the purpose of humiliating them simply because you do not agree with them for whatever reason. "

wait...are you even suggesting I am doing this because I simply dont agree with them? I dont agree with the catholic church on their abortion stand. I dont publicly rebuke them...

I publicly rebuke this video because someone somewhere has to say to whoever is watching this "OH MY F&#$&@*# GOD THIS IS NOT EVEN FUNNY!!!!!"

and why? Because there are impressionable minds out there that are on overkill from the onslaught of horrid examples of "isms" that are passed around in our culture under the guise of humour...

I have been reading this thread and I just want to post my opinion here.. (again)

I just want to state that I don't find rape amusing. I don't find the fact that older lesbians are being protrayed as predators funny.. That being said, when I was just coming out, I did have a 42 year old lesbian hit on me and then she played me like a drum, I was 18.. Some do it, not all. THAT being said..

I don't think that anyone here thinks that this video is truthful, I think that some folks got it and some folks didn't.. I agree with honeybarbara, it could have been written a LOT better and it missed the mark.. *shrugs* I guess I just have a fear here that this is hitting close to home for a lot of folks, and I can also see that some of the past "battles" can be seen as rearing up again here.

I am not a lesbian and I ID as male. Maybe this can be seen as a reason of why I'm not offended? I don't know.. All I can speak from is from where I am coming from.. I also want to say that I'm not going to spread this video around because it CAN show people that have no clue what lesbians are about (that sounds like lesbians have an agenda, they don't, we're all humans here), and that it can become something REALLY ugly very quickly..

OK, I'm done.. Thank you all for posting here.. I don't see a right or a wrong, just people that find diffrent things funny or offensive.

-Tony

I get the feeling you aren't actually reading what I've written when you accuse me of "seeing nothing wrong with a video that strips away the dignity of women." If this is a satire, and I have good reason to believe it is, it is not attempting to strip women of their dignity (therefore, it is not about me making light of women or men's dignities). In fact, it is attempting to do the exact contrary by highlighting the existence of this tendency (of stripping women of their dignity) in society. Just because something displays a certain event does not mean it desires to perpetuate it. It can very well be a commentary on it, and where we are as a society.

For example, in Voltaire's Candide you have Pangloss who preaches theodicy, and no matter what ridiculously violent and terrible things happen to Candide and his party, Pangloss continues to claim that it is "the best of all possible outcomes." Is it because Voltaire supports Leibnitz's philosophy? No! It is entirely to the contrary: he stages theodicy in the forefront precisely because he disagrees with it and perceives it as a danger to society (thus allowing for little upwards class movement, since it supports the notion that the lower classes should stay where they because their current station is the "best of all possible worlds.") There are horrible scenes of rape, dismemberment and so on that are made light of, and not because Voltaire supports such things, but precisely because he does not. The violent and horrific things that occur to the party, and the fact that it is being made light of is the contrast. The overexaggeration of horrific events is needed in order to get the author's real point across.

I'm not claiming the creator of this video is anywhere near approaching the genius of Voltaire, but it appears that he is taking a similar approach in attempting to ridicule something by placing it in the forefront. And that something is not lesbians, but the stereotypes surrounding them that are commonly used in popular culture. It "makes light of" in order to make people aware of what they themselves may very well be perpetuating. Could it have been better written? Yes, but just because the creator was not a particularly gifted writer is not reason to claim that he was attempting to demean women, when that doesn't appear to have been the intention.

To use the Borat example again: Sacha Baron Cohen is not demeaning or ridiculing Jews when his character, Borat, makes anti-semitic comments. He is trying to make people aware and accountable for what continues to occur within modern society. The fact that he takes the role of an "ignorant Kazakh" even further plays into American perspectives on non-western nations, when Americans themselves are guilty of precisely the same behaviour.

As for my comments to softness, please explain to me what such comments achieve and why it is ever right to attempt to humiliate someone because of their sex/gender/race/ethnicity/age etc.? What does it achieve? If you have a logical argument against someone then state it. Don't turn it into an emotional maelstrom that may very well just get otherwise important issues ignored. I haven't seen anyone explain that to me yet. And since when is the whole eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth method ever effective in getting your message across in a logical and coherent manner?

yeah but june, if I showed you Nighty Night, you could also say

"mentally unwell welsh people should never be gimps"
"it's not fun to be vaginally abused by a fish - and a tuna at that - against your will by an older woman"
"someone trying to seduce an 11 year old boy is very offensive - that's a pedo"
"that women is representing all older women who are sexually promiscuous and makeing us all into serial killers"

I could go on. the difference is Nightly Night is incredibly well written so the joke is actually funny rather than a poorly written piece of satire that obviously didn't meet it's mark and wound up offending tons of people in it's failing.

I personally think if it had been well written, it could have been hilarious. It wasn't. So it sucked and looked offensive.

Ender I am not going to argue with you about satire.

See June's post. I don't appreciate a twenty something year old male trying to tell someone who has been a lesbian for over 30 years (that would be me) how I should interpret this video. You have a lot to learn about sexism and misogyny.

General You's being used
 

So you can't see how it promotes and makes light of predatory behaviour against women?

*I* and I get this is me and not everyone else can't get past the oogieness of watching someone sober rub all over a drunk girl, that shit isn't funny at ALL.

I don't know if cause I have daughters and I hear it happens, or because I want to scream when I see women being demeaned and dismissed and ffs ridiculed for the sake of a ha ha.

It really really makes me want to scream when I see this at anytime.

I may be a prude:|

Oh I dunno... I've been raped while drunk a few times and I get that they aren't promoting it. You aren't supposed to emulate what you satirise.

*shrug*

I guess I am to sensitive about it to find it funny.

No sense in beating a dead horse everyone has their opinion

Thanks for the dialogues!

June, thank you for you response. I really appreciate it. I hope you don't mind if I respond in turn.

I want to make clear that I am not attempting to tell anyone how to think, but, instead, attempting to prompt people to think beyond their initial emotional reaction. I do not think this is a great work of satire, but I also realise that the author is likely not actually trying to take a swipe at lesbians or degrade women in any way. In fact, it seems the contrary is the point. That is what I'm trying to get through, and which I feel is contuously ignored. If people truly understand what satire is and how this video may very well be attempting to achieve it, then why not acknowledge that instead of calling the creator out on all sorts of things that don't appear to be true?

I also want to make clear that I am not telling anyone to lighten up (in fact, the point of the satire may very well be for society to get serious). In your final paragraph you seem to imply, and correct me if I'm wrong, that this video was funny to me and that I thought it was a good example of satire. This is incorrect, and, in fact, I stated earlier that I did not believe the video to be particularly funny. Additionally, the purpose of a satire that deals with such dark subject matter is not necessary to be "funny-ha-ha," but to point out that darkness by overexaggerating it, and yes, sometimes making light of the horrific. Believe it or not, such works and the contrast they present have been pivotal in changing social perspectives.

I am not telling people not to be angry, but to try and think past that initial anger. I have been insulted countless times in my life by a variety of things until I began to ask myself why I felt anger and insult, and what that anger actually achieves. Is it helping me attain my end to be insulted? I have found it effective to actually analyse the situation instead of lashing out in anger. I think such an approach is a good route to take if we wish to change society and it's perspectives on sex/gender. The more one continues on the path to logical debate and thought, the more irrational hatred and discrimination crumble. I don't believe we defeat such discrimination or humiliation by participating in it ourselves. I think this approach could be really beneficial to this community, and I'm sorry if that seems like an attack. I truly believe that it is a good idea to look inward as well as outward, and not only for things that we typically look for or recognise.

If for some reason the moderators don't feel my continued participation in this thread is desireable, I would be more than happy to make my own thread that addresses the issue. If my words are not desireable on this forum, then, well, I guess I'll just have to stick to my own writing. But I thoroughly believe that without self-criticism we threaten to become exactly that which we despise.

My thanks again, June. My additional thanks to all those who have participated in this discussion with me.

- Ender

Well June I disagree. I think my years of experience count for something.

Ender it doesn't matter whether the video makers intended to portray women in a negative light or not. Their intent very well may have been satire and they missed the mark.

However, it's the end product that matters- not their intent. They don't appear to know enough about lesbians or sexism or misogyny to effectively pull it off, and the end product is just degrading and insulting.

College frat boys are the ones that mostly rape college girls at parties where there has been lots of alcohol. Inserting an older lesbian for a frat boy doesn't make any sense and I fail to see how this is satire.

naw, I don't think you are too sensative at all. I think it's one of those cubes that you can look at both ways.

I do honestly understand people's points. And I can see why - if you perceive satire that way, it's very fuckin unfunny. But it's my understanding that the joke is laughing at the uncomfortable bigotry/moronic behaviour of those being satirised. Sort of like laughing at someone saying something utterly unacceptable.

If you don't ever do that, it's hard to find some kinds of layerd satire funny. especially crappy satire that tries to be more than it's able. I really don't think the absurdity was written into it well enough for people to pick up on. like I said, really badly written. It fell totally flat.

oh well.

It wasn't a sweeping indictment on all younger people. Just this particular situation. I learn a lot from younger people too.

Edit: Yes June I do understand you are not moderating. We are only in semi disagreement on one small point. I have appreciated your posts here.

What if it was not intended as a satire by the authors???

I think it would have appeared far more american style college humour and it would have been fairly obvious. It was definitely satire.

Then someone's ass is gonna get whipped.

second city is all about satire. no question there.

I have a question: how can you ascertain whether or not they have enough information about lesbians, sexism or misogyny if the point of the satire was to appear ignorant of all of the above? When feigned ignorance is what makes it satirical?

The creator is not trying to replace the frat boy with the older lesbian because he believes that lesbians actually behave in such a manner, but because that is how many in society view older lesbians. It is attempting to shed light on that stereotype and ridicule it. Again, making light of horrific situations is part of what makes satire effective and powerful. While this might not be the best attempt at it, I don't understand why there is such a huge backlash against it. Even well written satires are misunderstood by many and threaten to have an audience that does not fully understand its purpose.

Anyways, I can see we are going in circles, so I won't continue to the press the point.

On a side note, I don't find my age to be a valid argument against me, and I don't feel that I should be dismissed simply because I happen to be younger. If society were forever doing this, no new ideas would ever be brought into the mainstream. I am not claiming to be some kind of young 20-something genius, just that I can't see any logical justification whatever to dismissing me as ignorant because of my age. If you believe my age somehow does come into play, please explain exactly how. I'd be more than happy to hear your reasoning.

I agree. Everyone comes from a different walk in life that brings all kinds of knowledge to the table.

Same group that put this piece of crap out a few weeks ago:

I don't understand why you are defending a lame piece of satire and ignoring the messages it is sending about women. Go read the comments on YouTube- that's where they distribute their videos. See if their "satiric" message is getting through or whether you see a bunch of misogynist, homophobic comments.

Satire- know your audience, know your subject material. Otherwise you are going to cause way more harm than good so don't even fucking bother, especially if it's going to reinforce violence against women and horrible stereotypes.

How do I know they don't know enough- I am a lesbian. It's obvious. I wouldn't be telling a transman, hey you are not getting the point of this hilarious piece of satire made by non-trans people. They are mocking the transphobes not trans people, really honest.

As to your age, you don't seem to taken into account the lived experiences those of us have had. And yes I find it irritating when someone much younger than me thinks I am not getting their point. I know what satire is, and I know how to read your posts. You think I am not getting your point. I want to know why you don't seem to be putting any effort in trying to understand why people are upset and take into account what they have to say about how women are portrayed and the rape and other experiences they endure rather than trying to point out how we are not getting your point. We know it's supposed to be satire. We don't need your help on that point.

Ender not trying to be mean, just being honest but this feels like you comin in here as a dude and telling the women to shut the fuck and just laugh at the funny.

It's kind of gross feeling.

Just being honest

Ender - my question is -- does it work? I don't think it does. Because of the point I made earlier: You cannot successfully satirize something if you are basically ignorant about it on a social, cultural, and political level. That's what satire is after all - knowledgeable ironic commentary. This clip does not achieve satire - and if satire misses -- it easily becomes offensive. That's the risk of satire.

Actually the offensive part to me is the ignorant attempt at satire -- the making of satire without the requisite cultural analysis - the kind of analysis that makes The Simpsons work so well -- even when they skewer lesbians.

One last point: I am not at all convinced this was intended to be the kind of sophisticated satire you are arguing on behalf of.

Heart

hi everybody!!! :)

as a guy from this community that has loved femmes/lesbians it offends me to see the style of woman i love portrayed this way!!! in fact it just fuckin pisses me off!!!

as a guy from this community that loves women and has my own herstory i am offended by the disgusting way that this particular piece of "comedy" sets a tone for it to be ok to take advantage of women and have done enough work to understand how media like this goes against the fighting violence against women!!!

as a guy from this community i think it is important to say to others like me that have/will be gaining priviledge from transitioning that if this video did not offend you then you may need to revisit the mental work that comes with transitioning!!!

*notunderstandinghowyoucan'tseeitdancinglamb*

Just want to clarify (and I've stated it a few times now) that I don't actually see the video as funny. I think I wrote that even in the first post I made. I think whoever created it probably shouldn't quit their day job. I'm also not telling women, or anyone for that matter, to shut the fuck up and laugh (actually, kind of the opposite). If I wanted people to shut up, I wouldn't continue talking to them. If I didn't want the discussion to happen, I wouldn't start typing to begin with. What I'm trying to say is that if people are angry, fine, go ahead and be angry. But what I'm also trying to say is that it doesn't help anyone's cause to sit there and point fingers all day.

People keep bringing up how I identify, and I get that people think that because someone doesn't identify in a certain way that they don't understand what other people of that identification feel about a subject that directly concerns them. But honestly, where would we get if we started limiting people on what they have to say based on their gender identification? Am I supposed to agree just because I don't identify a certain way and couldn't "possibly understand"? What if I identified as female and a lesbian? Would people be more willing to listen, then? People also seem to think I don't care or want to care about how lesbians/female identified folks feel...that's not the case at all. I am understanding, truly I am, but understanding does not necessarily mean that I'm going to agree that this is the most productive way to go about addressing these issues, and the fact that I don't agree shouldn't mean that I don't respect those feelings. I just think that reacting on pure emotion can be counterproductive to raising awareness.

Not trying to be mean either, and also just being honest. If this is your polite way of saying "Ender, fuck off" then please tell me "Ender, fuck off." I promise not to take it personally. Until someone tells me to blatantly get lost, all I get is that you guys disagree with me, but still don't mind me continuing to discuss. But I'm slowly getting the impression that it's a polite/indirect "please, shut up now." Please tell me if it is.