good morning stones and all who relate in some sort of way... i hope everyone has a great weekend!

Hi there all...Random, these are the two ways I see being 'stone' as well. I'd been a 'lesbian' all my life because I didn't know there were other id's out there. All I know was that thru-out my 'lesbian' life, I was very unhappy about the sexual aspect of my relationships. I've always been extremely attracted to very masculine looking/behaving females, and didn't understand why. My friends would chide me about my taste, and some had the audacity to tell me that if I wanted someone who looked/acted 'like that', I wasn't really gay, and I should get myself a man! I had no comeback because I didn't understand my preference either, and thought maybe there was something wrong with me. But I knew I didn't want a bio-male, that was something I was definately sure about.

It took discovering the butch-femme sites and reading the posts of femmes who felt the way I did, to realize that there was absolutely nothing wrong with me - I had 'sisters'... :) So now, I am very comfortabe in my skin, and have come to the conclusion that I don't have to explain myself or my preferences to anyone, but most importantly that it is *their* problem, not mine.

Sorry for the long post, and thank you for indulging me.

LostLamb

i know what you mean lost - i was vry much the same - taking a femme role was seen as anti feminist . all my life even before i realized and even later when i accepted me being a lesbian i was attracted to butch. in my teens there a very stone butch named mike in the neighborhood. hy always had a femme gal on hys arm, when all my friebds were going ewwwwwwww 0 i wast so ewwww and fantasized about being that girl.

it was disturbing back then but obviously i now understand.

:cherry:

(f)(f) good morning oops afternoon - enjoy :cherry:

Glad I could help.

Hi, Lamb, and :welcome: to the site!

I'm glad you've found yourself and us!

Totally relate!
 

Thank you Gemme and DomnNC for the warm welcome. :)

Where do you begin to respond to questions like that, or should you even bother? I guess it depends who is asking.

I do recall responding when a couple of men, who after spotting me, yelled out at my grrl ‘whats she got that I haven’t?’ and telling them to bend over so I could show them.

I heard a Femme tell a lesbian who had reacted badly at being told she wasn’t her type explain to her that having sex with her would be like masturbation, and having sex with a man would be like being offered a tic tac when you were starving, but that having sex with a Butch was like a ride on a rollercoaster - where the build up was so intense that it was almost unbearable but the exhilaration of the ride was enough to keep her wanting to get back in line.

One of my favourite responses was years ago, when a Femme, a woman of maturity and incredible grace, was asked by a ‘would be suitor” what he could do to have her consider him- to which she replied “Darling if it were as simple as having surgery, I would of course suggest it, a little snipping would be a small price to pay- however, there is nothing can be done. I’m afraid you must blame your parents for providing you with that defective second chromosome. Now please go and pout elsewhere- you are blocking my view to that incredibly good looking Butch”

I haven't read all of the posts in depth, only skimmed as there are so many. However, from those I have read I see that being Stone means different things to different people.

I'm Stone and if I listed my ID to include all parts of me, then the ID would be as long as my arm. Being Stone to me is simple and quite black and white. It is related to sex and just means that I don't want to be touched in any feminising way. That isn't to say I don't want to be touched at all, but only in the ways that a man would be touched, or for me to feel that way when being touched.

It's also about trust for me, if I didn't feel comfortable with my partner then there are limits, but isn't that the same with everyone, Stone or none Stone. It's finding our own comfort zones. For example, I have had upper surgery, but prior to that I wouldn't let a partner touch my chest as that reminded me of a female part of me that I hated, now I love it to be touched and anything else for that matter, because I am comfortable with my chest in a way that I never was before.

I find that I gel better in a relationship with a Stone Femme because we seem to understand each in a way that a none Stone does, that isn't to say I wouldn't consider a none Stone relationship, because that is too limiting, but I would hope that she would at least try to understand and learn to accept how I am.


I love this analogy. I don't think there is anything as powerful or as intimate as a kiss, or as revealing either.


I loved the dignity in this response.

What Stone means to me
 

I'm glad I found this thread! Thanks for starting it, morningstar! Hello everyone!

I read this quote to Gryph; it had us both laughing hard. Feelin' rather cocky, were ya there? :cheesy:
~~~~~~~~~~

The reason I choose to partner with Stone Butches has to do with energy. When I am with a Stone Butch--dating or not--there is an energy circuit that completes. Two halves of an energy whole come together and the spark, the flow, is exhilaratingly right. I have been with Butches who are not Stone Butches and the energy circuit has been completely unavailable to me; I have merely talked to Stone Butch friends on the phone and the circuit has completed itself in less than a heartbeat after a friend says "hello." It's the rightness, the knowing that "this is the kind of person I am meant to be with," the fit like a hand in a custom-made glove... it's about life, and knowing how to be together in ways that fit both of us at once.

Sexual boundaries are secondary to that. Yes, my sexual boundaries dovetail with those of Stone Butches--BUT if that energy circuit doesn't complete, the relationship would never work no matter how sexually compatible we might be.

For me personally, the energy circuit often completes with Transmen as well. Quite often I discover later that they had considered themselves Stone Butches before they transitioned. Every once in a while it completes with someone who doesn't identify at all as a Stone Butch; then I usually discover that in the kink world, the person identifies as a Daddy.

Since for me this is much more about the energy of life and living together, about the rightness of simply being in the same space together--rather than about observing sexual boundaries--I think of it not as my sexual preference or orientation but as my gender.

With all the formatting I don't know how to clip quotes from your message but YES YES YES!!! This is really what it's about for me too. Stone butch or trans... there's an energy that cannot be created, completed or otherwise experienced with any other. I've spent so many years trying to be straight/bi/lesbian/bi... straight...? and none of it fit entirely. I know without a doubt that I am Femme. Stonefemme if that's the proper term for a woman who's always appreciated being a woman who loves those who's masculinity was born into them but not handed to them by biology or society.

Happy New Year all you wonderful, amazing, potent, strongwilled stones!

Hi Nightshade, welcome!

Which editor are you using? If you use the WYSIWYG editor--you can set that preference by going to the top left-hand corner of this page and clicking "User CP"; then click "edit Options" and scroll to the bottom of the page, set the editor you want and click "save changes"--then all you have to do is quote someone and it shows up pre-formatted. You just delete what you don't want from their post and you're good to go.

I like the term Stonefemme, myself. I use it to both talk about my gender and to differentiate myself from Femmes who are sexually stone, since it's so doggoned confusing that we only have the one term (Stone Femme) for two such different meanings.

I like the “energy circuit” analogy- thank you for articulating it. The discussion around Stone is always interesting; with some wishing to make it a debate about politics and ideologies, and others making it about psychological hurdles concerned with body image and trust. But for me when the conversation involves Stone being a deliberate intellectual choice, or that it is a symptom of something that requires curing i.e. “melting the Stone”, I am at a loss.

It is simply who I am, it is not an activity or a set of guidelines that are followed when the bedroom door is closed- it is who I am when I sit across the dinner table from you, it is who I am when my opinion or advice is sought, it is who I am when I greet or walk beside you. We can only really understand the world from the shoes in which we stand- and although my boots are Stone, they are not heavy or uncomfortable; they instead make me sure footed, connected, confident.

Anybody can change their behaviour; ignoring the fact that I would probably be sporting a twisted ankle within minutes, I’m sure for example I could wear a pair of heels. But as disorientating as that might be to any onlooker, it would be nothing compared to the degree of alienation that I would feel about myself. Can I explain why? No not really- all I know is that is who I am. It feels right and as natural as hmmmm… stone.

what's in a word
 

YES. Did you hear the click? Circuit complete....

This is exactly what I mean, exactly what draws me--the place from which a Stone Butch sees the world.

One of the things which draws me to both Stone Butches and Transmen is this kind of self-awareness and self-confidence, this (usually hard-won) knowledge that of all the ways to be in this world and regardless of other people's judgment, this is the way that fits them best--and not just them, but also fits me (and other potential partners) the best. It was Stone Butches who taught me to stop judging myself by other people's (impossible) standards, who allowed me to simply relax into myself and be who I am in all parts of my life without fear or guilt. It was Stone Butches who taught me--just by existing--about that energy circuit, and what it can mean when the connection is made. It was Stone Butches who knew what to say and how to say it, who knew how to rebuild my shattered confidence, who knew how to tell me that I have value just by being.

That wasn't a message I could hear from other Butches, even when they spoke it. I heard it from Stone Butches because of the energy connection between us; that period of my life, that time of great healing, holds my most treasured friendships and memories.

Ahhhhhh, Bit. One of the "mothers" of internet stone butch theory (so to speak), in my opinion. Welcome! <tips hat>

Thank you for the welcome, Dapper, and for that very kind thought. I never thought of myself that way, yanno? To me it was the community discussions that mattered, and we were all a part of that. I learned so much during those discussions, both about others and about myself!

Ah, well, Gail, it's not exactly something that shows on the outside *soft smile* and I think most Stone Butches are private about such things with new people anyway. You could try looking for the people who make your heart sing, and just being open to as many Butches as possible; the Stone Butches I've known have all valued getting to know a potential partner before actually talking about more intimate things.

:blink: There is any other possible way to interpret "what draws ME," than that it would be "in my experience"? I think that possibly you do the rest of the readers of this thread a disservice to assume they are unable to understand that I am talking about myself and my own experience, most especially since I have taken pains to make it plain that I am NOT talking about anyone else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Bent (Post 258191) I think it is a huge fallacy to assume that either stone butches or transmen universally possess this self-awareness and self-confidence

Why would anyone make such an assumption, Bent? Why wouldn't people who are reading this thread say to themselves, "well, look, Cathie is talking about the kind of people she is attracted to, Stone Butches and Transmen who happen to embody that kind of self-awareness and confidence"? Why would anyone reading this thread assume that all people are the same, and that if I have run into confident Stone Butches, then ipso facto all Stone Butches are confident?

Again, I think you are doing the readers of this thread a disservice by assuming their inability to understand that I am talking about my own experience--and I believe you are doing us all a disservice by assuming that anyone would think this is the sum total of my experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Bent (Post 258191) that all veils of insecurity and self-doubt have been magically lifted.

My talking about what Stone Butches have done for me and meant to me does not mean the flow was all one-way; it means that in the spirit and intent of this thread as I understand it, we are speaking about ourselves, not about others. As I understand this thread, we are to speak about our own experiences--and that is what I am very plainly doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Bent (Post 258191) While this thread is to celebrate the stone butch (and here I will also go on record that the term "stoner" is sort of offensive to me), let's not bestow upon them some elevated status or mantles of higher evolution.

Why not, if they have done the hard work that merits it?

Why not recognize those who have changed my life and healed my broken spirit as the wonderful people they are?

How could my being honest about the kind of Stone Butches and Transmen I am attracted to, the kind who have helped me so much along my way, the kind who have educated and inspired me, possibly harm anyone?

Why should I be dishonest, and pretend they are NOT wonderful people, when--speaking purely from my own experience--they ARE wonderful people?

I don't know how you meant this to come across, but it seems very patronizing to me. I hope I'm wrong about your intent. I actually very much hope I'm wrong about the intent of your entire post, as I don't like to think that you would assume such ignorance of our fellow posters--or of me.

That's good to know.

Only by someone who wishes to believe that I make blanket statements, since my entire post--which you chose to quote without context--was a response to this post, which I quote again for your convenience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Bent (Post 258309) The way your opening sentence is constructed implies not that it is true of only the stone butches and transmen that you have encountered, but that it is these particular qualities which have drawn you to stone butches and transmen (in general). That is a logical reading of the way you actually worded your sentence, which is why I phrased mine as a clarification.

My opening sentence was the word "YES," so I think you might mean the first sentence you quoted.

Converse said, "But as disorientating as that might be to any onlooker, it would be nothing compared to the degree of alienation that I would feel about myself. Can I explain why? No not really- all I know is that is who I am. It feels right and as natural as hmmmm… stone. " and I replied directly to that statement, "One of the things which draws me to both Stone Butches and Transmen is this kind of self-awareness and self-confidence, this (usually hard-won) knowledge...."

I will reiterate that I acknowledged the confidence and self-awareness are usually hard-won, which right there says that it is a struggle for many Stone Butches and Transmen to get to that place--which in any logical reading serves as notice that all Stone Butches and Transmen are NOT in the same place at the same time.

If you choose to read some sort of blanket statement into my post despite my acknowledgement of this, then you are choosing to ignore the reality of what I actually said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Bent (Post 258309) I suspected that I knew what you meant, and that others might as well, but I wanted it to be damn clear, just as your response to me here has been infinitely more qualifying than your original post.

No, it hasn't. I said the same thing twice. You simply didn't see it until the second time, I suspect because the second time I was speaking directly to you instead of to Converse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Bent (Post 258309) Your original statements were far more general than these. Had you posted this way initially, I wouldn't have been compelled to say what I did.

My original statements were not general, they were a direct answer to someone else's post. Had I posted this way initially, I would have been speaking to you instead of to Converse, but it was Converse who was speaking to me, and it was my choice to answer.

It seems you missed that context.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Bent (Post 258309) My reply had nothing to do with presumed ignorance, and everything to do with clarity. You have met some evolved individuals, but there is no correlation between their gender/sexual identity and their emotional evolution as a general condition. I simply wanted to make that very clear, otherwise, the implication is that others (with different identities) are less so (which I'm sure you would recognize as being offensive).

Since when is the universe such a binary place that a simple acknowledgement of one kind of person automatically tarnishes all other people?

Let us be EXTREMELY clear, here: that is YOUR attitude and not mine. You are the one who is stating that if people state they value something, they are automatically devaluing everything else; you are the one who is not allowing for people's ability to value many things at the same time.

In MY universe, there are exemplary people everywhere. There is no either/or; I will not nor have I EVER stated, insinuated, or implied that if one kind of person is good all other kinds of people are bad or somehow "less than." Anyone who can read such a heinously limited and limiting thought in a simple acknowledgement that the Stone Butches and Transmen who attract me have self-awareness and confidence is reading what they wish or expect to see instead of reading what I actually said.

Again I repeat, it is YOUR assumption that if people say they value one kind of person, that statement automatically devalues all other kinds of persons. Your very binary either/or assumption has nothing to do with the reality of my post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Bent (Post 258309) If, as individuals, we are able to reach a state in which our emotional maturity and our gender/sexual identity are on parallel tracks, then we are fortunate creatures, indeed.

It doesn't seem like a dialogue to me. It seems like I am being taken to task for things which I have not said--being forced to defend my words and even my attitudes, instead of being allowed to participate in the conversation. I dislike being "schooled," most especially when it derails the conversation and discourages other people from posting.

You might wish to consider that had you simply posted, "Self-awareness takes a lot of hard work" or "I haven't found that all Stone Butches are self-aware and confident," or some such similarly non-judgmental statement that I would have most willingly engaged in an entirely more pleasant dialogue with you.

In reading this thread, I can only put in my personal perspective on the topic. For myself, I DO id as Stone Butch. For myself, it is less about how much self-awareness I have as to how I walk through life. It is a bit difficult to explain for me for some reason. The best example for me is the type of woman I am attracted to. Very femme. Very Southern, ie demure, respectful, old school ect. Not that I like door mats. If you know anything about Southern women that is the last thing you could possibly describe them as. Quietly fierce is more like it. What is odd for my situation is I felt I was overlooked as a masculine woman because I am quite thin, small boned and was described when I was young as pretty. I didn't feel I was taken seriously in the B/F world because of these things. I spent most of my youth being hyper aggressive, drunk and angry. I liken it to attempting to "feel my size". I didn't feel like a "real" Butch, because I did not think I looked like one. So, I fought against my own notions and sterotypes of what a Butch should look like, act like and just be. This is the main reason I took so far, nine years of abtainance from the dating pool. I was just flailing about and unfit for human consumption. Something I have learned is I have to define me. For me. I know there are some that will rail about being put in a box. For me it is knowing who I am. For me. I had to become selfish to be selfless I suppose. It has taken me a long time to get some comfort inside myself. I will never be one of those big Butch women that I always thought I should be. Hell, I am 5' 8" tall and weigh 130 pounds. I am a stick. *shrug* So what? I still look like me. A little older yeah. But, inside, I am a big masculine Butch. But, finally, I do not have to be a total tool to prove it. That in and of its self is such a relief. I was really tired of getting my ass kicked. The main point is I found myself. How I feel. How I define me. I simply am a Stone Butch because that is who I am.

That had to be really difficult; I've known a lot of Butches who described going through the same kind of experience for various reasons, usually related to their looks. It's a heartbreaker for me because to me, what counts is inside; to me, looks are pretty much irrelevant.

I'm glad you've come to a better place and that you've found yourself as a Stone Butch. I can relate to the relief of that, because it was such a relief when I found myself as a Stonefemme. Like you, I see it not as being put in a box, but as self-definition.

These postings distress me. While I care for Mr. Bent and Bit, they are unaware of the esteem which I, and likely others, hold them. Bent's penetrating comments and quick observations. Bits compassion and understanding and support of butches.

Perhaps my discomfort arises from my own stuff, my state of mind because of grief. I don't know, but I want you both to know that this disagreement disturbs me, and I wish that you would work it out between you. I do really care for you both. You are each important to me and, IMO, to this community, in your own way.

I see it not so much as an argument, but a lively discussion. Which is good. As long as the gloves stay on and all parties are respectful, go for it. Keep it flame free and others may just learn something they did not know. My .02.

I've not said a thing about an argument, Legend.
The tone. Bent's decision to NOT engage further... a mixed bag of things, not all relative to the word word argue, which is WHY I chose to not use the word.

My word choice. I am sorry to have put it that way. Lively discussion perhaps? lol All I know is I have my opinion, you have yours, they have thiers. And it is a good thing. As long as the flame is kept away. It is all a good thing.

I too agree with what was said. I have learned a lot from just sitting back and reading things posted. I suck at wording things sometimes, too plain spoken I suppose. I do so appreciate the opportunity to see other's points of view. It gives me the opportunity to step back and think about a different perception. That is so good for me. There are many people here that are much smarter about things than I am and having the opportunity to learn from them is such a blessing.

i also suck at wording things and alot of what i post is taken out of context often i chose not to post because i know it will be torn apart and just cause ill feelings.i learn alot from just reading also. but i have to disagree on the smarter part i think it more of having walked a diffrent walk then smarter or not.
i do always try to remember not to judge a book by its cover. it whats inside that makes it a best seller!