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I know there are at least a few counties here in Tennessee that have banned the pit bull breed. A few weeks ago, one of my friends told me that her son had to get rid of a pit bull (he found or it was given to him) because their homeowner's insurance. |
Not much left to be said about this story as it pretty well has been covered here. As much as I love animals I am sticking to my support of our President and will be voting for him again in 2012!
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in this mI don't feel that it is appropriate for any President to single out any player in this manner during that player's season and in the middle of an MVP race. Call and meet teams when they win a championship or break a record (go UConn Women!!) or individual athletes after they win a medal - yep, that's part of the fun part of a President's job. Shoot hoops with whatever ego-inflated overpaid basketball he likes in the off season - fine, whatever, pardon my eye roll. Single out one player like that in the middle of the season and in the middle of MVP voting - wrong.
Comparing a wealthy black man's reduced sentence and instant hire in to a wealthy profession to what any non-famous black man would have suffered in the same situation ("level playing field" my ass) - clueless. |
So far in this thread we've talked about rehabilitation, redemption, the inordinate number of black men that go to prison - and serve more time in prison than a white man would, whether or not some of us would vote for Obama after having taken the actions he did in regard to Vick, whether or not it was appropriate that he do this before the season is over, whether or not the matter concerning the President is a deliberate distraction from other political issues..... ALL valid issues.
Here's what I think about when I hear the name Michael Vick: quote: Dogs that didn't fight well were beaten, drowned, shot and even electrocuted by Vick and his associates, according to court records. Thought it's nearly impossible to know the extent of the emotional and physical abuse these dogs endured, in some cases it's apparent. One dog, Georgia, had all 42 of her teeth pulled. Caregivers believe it was to prevent her from attacking male dogs during forced breeding. "We don't know who did it. We assume it's because she was such a valuable breeding dog," McMillian said. "Very often females will not accept males in breeding and will attack." end quote I'll add that a dog that has it's teeth pulled or ground down is often a bait dog. That's not a sparring partner. That's a bait dog. Believe me, this description doesn't even BEGIN to describe what happened to these poor animals. Pit bulls are lovely creatures. Yet many municipalities have banned them. At a great many shelters pitties are euthanized simply for being pitties. Why? Because the dog fighting industry has tainted the reputation of the breed to the extent that it's considered poisonous to insurance companies, landlords, peace officers, and many "shelters". That's what I think of when I think of Michael Vick. According to the justice system he's paid for his crime. He's served time in prison, and made certain amends. I've already said that I haven't seen him say anything that indicates to me that he has stepped out of the culture that he was immersed in and had an epiphone: "no creature deserves to be abused". I just haven't seen that. I'm not in the man's head, but if he's making public statements to rehabilitate his image, well you'd think that a new-found appreciation for the intrinsic rights of other creatures would be FRONT AND CENTRE, if indeed it were there. If this were a child abuser I doubt he would have so easily slipped back into the role of hero. WE - our SOCIETY, has created the problem of over-population of companion animals. We therefore have the responsibility to take care of these animals. That includes - IMHO - not so easily forgetting the suffering and death that this man is responsible for. And CERTAINLY so easily handing him back the magic wand that makes him a rich privileged hero of the professional sports world. Sue |
Aj,
(forgive me my soapbox, this may have been best as a completely new thread) It is so very rare that I find myself in near complete disagreement with you, but I have to say that I find this argument of yours weak. Painfully so. The burning building argument is so far to the extreme that it annoys me it was pulled out in this discussion, and worse yet that it's now being perpetuated. Yes, in an extreme circumstance I'll help my fellow humans, but I would also do everything in my power to save *every living thing* in such a case. Yes, there is a hierarchy, and based on Genesis 1:26 "Man has dominion over the inferior creatures". What's not clear is if dominion means that we're free to eat and force into labor at our hands or if we bear a higher responsibility to care for them. In various translations it's stated as "rule the" or "rule over"... but is that in the way a Sovereign would rule a Kingdom? Does that give the Sovereign the right to enslave it's people and put them to death? If they have that right, is it ok just because it's the way it's always been done? No, we've never lived wholly at peace with animals, it's only been in the last 30 years that we've breed, excuse me, produced animals in the way that we are now and in the numbers that we do now - specifically for slaughter. Only now do we pump them so full of growth hormones to get them to mature faster to elevate profits. So fast do broiler chickens grow now that they often cannot support their own weight. Only now do we pump their feed full of antibiotics in an effort to "minimize loss", that we're seeing 80% of US antibiotic usage on animals. The long term human health effects of which have long been a concern for doctors. So cramped are their cages that they cannot turn around or stretch their wings. In many cases their beaks are cut and cauterized so they don't peck other chickens to death out of boredom and frustration. Now, due to specialization between broilers and layers... all male chicks born as layers are "disposed of" because they are economically worthless. And that's just what happens to chickens. I could go on about pigs and cows and turkeys, not to mention sheep and other farmed animals. All in, according to a UN study in 2006 it was found that Factory Farming/Animal Agriculture contributes more to global warming than driving. As a matter of fact 296 times the Global Warming Potential of CO2. Factory Farming is also a major cause of land and water degradation. And why is this all the case? We, particularly those of us in the US, consume more meat than ever. Meat, once a luxury item at the market, is now common place. Meat prices have not kept pace with inflation and demand has skyrocketed. Our appetite for fast food burgers, chicken and pork is out of control and factory farming has risen to the challenge of meeting this every increasing desire. With practices that any rational human being can agree are inhumane, this nation turns a blind eye to the suffering animals endure in order to "feed the world". But it's not just feeding humans that causes such suffering. Clothing and other products rely heavily on animal products. Leather is everywhere. If you are not already Vegan, I dare you to consider your closet or your home and think of just how many products you use each day which are animal based. It's staggering. [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwJgGEqa2xI"]YouTube - Earthlings 5 of 9 (dolphins, clothing industry, india cows, leather, fur farms)[/nomedia] (warning: Graphic. May be unsuitable for some viewers, Forward to 3:35 for information about the Indian Leather Trade). Hindus revere cows. Yet poor Indian families are routinely lied to in order to buy their cows. Those cows are then transported to an area where they can legally be slaughtered. Their handling during this transport is nothing short of nightmarish. I could go on, but I just wanted to point out the vast difference between a rock falling to earth destroying half of all life and the systematic cruelty which we, humans, subject the animal life we've been entrusted with. We have control over one - not the other. It reads, to me, as an astonishing amount of arrogance to suggest otherwise. Just because we've been at something for eons, surely you're not arguing we should continue a practice? I don't think I need to go into the parallels between sexism, racism, DADT, slavery, a woman's right to vote, marriage freedom and so on and the eating of animals, do I? Many vegans and vegetarians believe that if we had to kill the animals we eat, we'd all be vegetarians. I don't believe that for a minute, but I do believe our ranks would swell. I know if I'd been forced to do so I would have become vegan as a child. Having become vegan at 40 I feel guilty for the years where I lived disconnected from my compassion for companion animals and the systemic cruelty suffered by food and service animals. In closing, I encourage anyone who has interest in learning more about these issues to watch, in it's entirety, the documentary film, Earthlings. It is available on YouTube, in multiple parts. [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7TiSkBLoPM&feature=BF&list=PLEC5CD974D672 9FC1&index=1"]YouTube - Earthlings 1 of 9 (CC Subtitled)[/nomedia]. It is also available (in it's entirety) on Netflix. Quote:
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I know a lady whose granddaughter had to have 26 surgeries because the family pet attacked her (her and the dog grew up together). The doctors told them that if the dogs jaws would have been locked on the child for a minute longer she would not have survived. |
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Bite stories and statistics rarely report whether a bite or "attack" was provoked or not. Any dog can bite, obviously a larger dog's bite is going to do more damage, and so more caution needs to be - but often enough is not - exercised. I know more people who have been bitten, and rather ferociously, by small dogs (talk to vet techs and groomers and ask them which dogs are most likely to bite them). There is nothing in the breeding of a pit bull type dog that will give it a greater to propensity to "random" attacks/bites. They are a terrier breed, though, and tenacity is a breed characteristic. They are also extremely strong, as are rottweilers, dobermans, German shepherds and a multitude of other breeds, from whom even an accidental bite can be very damaging. Dog attacks occur as a result of negligent dog owners who ignore warning signs, don't train their pets, don't socialize them, or even abuse them. A majority of dog attacks are completely preventable. Unfortunately, a lot of these dogs are also victims of abuse, such as the Bad Newz Kennel dogs, or from other rescue situations. The enormous popularity of pit bull type dogs has led to a large number of them ending up in shelter situations, which creates a plethora of difficulties for any dog, which few people are really equipped to deal with. Bull and terrier types (American Staffordshires, English Bull Terrriers, etc) are unique dogs with a distinct breeding history, which does NOT include aggression toward humans. That part, sadly, is solely the province of irresponsible and ignorant humans. Some people shouldn't own pit bulls, just as some people can't drive muscle, or other high performance cars. It's the same way with horses, pick a breed and individual suited to you. |
Sigh
I love a thick steak, rare. Abuse is abuse, I hope I really do he learned his lesson. If Vick was not a commodity to the team or owners he'd be another one of our black men in jail, pfft we wouldn't even know who Vick was if that was the case. |
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The only time I've ever been bit was by a Scottie, the poor thing was in his death throes, but still. I have been around pitties for a long time, various partners and landlords, not once have I ever even had the thought that a pitt would become aggressive with me or anyone I was with.
It isn't the breed, it's the incompetent, ignorant owner. ALL dogs can bite, all humans should be aware of their own behavior. |
My .02, like it or lump it
As for what Vick did, yes, I think it was totally heinous and can only hope that he truly is reformed (even if I personally don't think he is). As for Obama, I see nothing wrong with what he did and do not feel that it should bias election opinions solely based on this act. Everyone's using examples so I'll throw in my own. Would we be having this conversation if Obama was showing support to another "reformed" person? For example, if he went into an inner city youth program being ran by a former gang member who is now "reformed" and showed his support would there be an issue? Or perhaps to an ex-prostitute who is now helping get others off the street? To me, it's all the same in my mind. If someone truly is "reformed" and goes back to being a normal citizen and even a productive member of the community, should we NOT support them? And no, this is not just a defense for Vick because I could care less one way or the other for the man, and do think his penalties should have been more severe to begin with (especially since I am a hardcore animal lover). But also, I think other athletes and celebrities should have to face the same consequences for their crimes as "civilian" citizens. They get off far too easily in most cases, but that's another rant all together...
As for the animals, I agree with Bent. I grew up in an area where dog and cock fighting were rampant, and still goes on today. I had an in-law who raised fighting pits. I have seen those fighting animals as completely aggressive towards other animals yet gentle with humans, so there goes most folks preconceived notions about that. (And no, I do NOT condone ANY animal cruelty in any form, and was very happy when this person's ring got shut down.) I myself have had these animals for pets, and know from experience that it is not necessarily a "genetic" trait or preconceived behavioral pattern for these animals. Did you know that in the 40s and 50s pitbulls were the number 1 family dog in America? Did you know that you have a higher chance of being attacked by a German Shepherd or Dalmation than you do of a pit? Or that aggression issues are more prevelant in smaller breeds? Up until a few years ago, the cocker spaniel was the number one most aggressive dog in breed studies and pits didn't even make that list. It has become highly sensationalized and "popluar" to blame/shame pits after the major publicizing of dog fighting ring crackdowns in the last 10 or so years. It does not matter if you raise a pit or a poodle or a chihuahua from birth, or whether you have known bloodlines. ANY animal has the capacity and capability to attack or become vicious. Unfortunately for pits, they seem to be the only ones that ever make headlines... |
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Can you find the pitbull? In 2008 pitbulls ranked 8th overall for aggressive behavior, and that includes lumping all pits together (there are three distinct "flavors" of pitbull type dogs). Dachshunds ranked first at 1 out of 5 observed dogs trying to bite a human. That's 20%. Pitbulls ranked 7%. Pitbulls and Akitas, which both have "bad boy" reputations ranked high due to their observed aggression toward other dogs, not for aggression toward humans. Further, it's noted in the study that larger breed dog bites are likely over represented in dog bite statistics because bites from larger dogs are more likely to cause bite victims to seek medical attention and therefore report the bite incident. Now, damage done by a large dog, particularly one with the physical stature of a Pit or a Rottie, is another thing altogether. The likelihood of a fatal attack coming from a small breed dog is very slim so when one hears of a particularly vicious dog bite/attack it's usually from a large breed such as a Pit or a Rottie. And that propagates the notion that most bites stem from such dogs. It's really important to understand the difference. And finally, even with Breed Specific Legislation in locations such as Denver, which bans all Pit Bulls - and put to death hundreds of the dogs, dog bite statistics declined in accordance with dog bite statistics in other cities without BSL. See here for a discussion on the effects of Denver's BSL versus a city such as Oregon, which instituted a "Potentially Dangerous Dog Ordinance" instead. Which do you think has had a dog attack fatality since introducing their legislation? Pit Bulls are NOT the problem. Irresponsible owners are the problem. |
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I never stated in my post that any animal deserves to be abused or tortured. |
I think that dogs, in general, have an undeserved poor reputation. I have grown up with dogs. All my life until I moved out of my parents house I have lived with at least 2 dogs at all times. Rotties, Dobermans, German Shepherds, Dalmations, Labs, and even a Pitbull. My parents like their dogs big, so do I.
I have never been bitten by a dog. Now, ask me how many times I've had to go to the hospital because I was attacked by a cat. |
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To clarify: I said Mr. Bent had addressed the pit bull issue. I simply continuted with the conversation. |
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The biggest problem with pits and dogs like rotties is the power of their jaw. Any dog can turn aggressive. Some breeds, like pits are just more capable of killing quickly and thats what makes this a dangerous breed. My rottie Bear (RIP) was the most gentle animal I ever met and 120 pounds but there was no doubt in my mind he could kill a human within seconds. Could a lab do this? Probably not. I've broken up dog fights before and I've been bitten by dogs (as well as many other animals). I would not, under any circumstances break up a fight with a pit, rottie, etc. I would scream like a crazy person, pick up objects and throw it.
another thing and you can disagree as much as you want- I would never leave a jaw strong breed or any dog for that matter alone with a child. I've seen the most calm breeds become scared and turn into monsters. I board pits and most all dogs. I am more cautious and supervise them around other dogs because I know what they are capable of. This doesnt mean a human has the right to abuse them in any way |
The dog is not the problem, it's the treatment they received from their caretakers be it past, now or future.
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I've known wonderful pits, rotties and dobermans...but I wouldn't own one. Not because there's anything wrong with the breed, but because I know myself - and I don't have the dedication that it takes to train and handle these breeds properly. It's a shame that these breeds seem to attract, in many cases, the absolute last people who should own them. |
Did anyone see the article this morning with that Tucker idiot saying that Michael Vick should have gotten the death penalty?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/1..._n_802192.html Does anyone see the mental illness in that? |
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Kill the FUCKER! Throw him to the most brutal inmates - strip him down and let them at him. But do it slow and be calculating about it. Emotional response! I am more offended he referred to himself as a Christian - as if he is a Supreme being. I am a Christian (yeah so) and I have made mistakes (yeah so). Do I think he should have been executed? No, because I do not believe in the death penalty. However... What he did is unforgivable. I have no tolerance for those who pray on the weak. Be it animals, children, women, elderly. I have no tolerance and cannot think beyond my emotional self, which is why I try to stay out of these conversation! This replaces every single logical cell in my body. |
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People dont research breeds before taking them into their homes. This is so important. You should not take in large breeds unless you know you're able to handle them and feed them. Just MY animals- dogs and pig (pig eats same dog food) I spend at least 150-200 a month. Also, check because some breeds are more prone to medical conditions and vet care is something you need to consider when taking any pet. I have an awesome pit posted on my facebook right now needing a home. He's an awesome dog for a one on one owner he can feel safe and bond with. He would not be good with other dogs, cats or children because he was abused- kicked, left to starve and neglected. The lady that has him now says he fights to be near her because she probably is the only person in his life that has ever shown him any affection. He's an awesome dog for the right person. It makes me cry. I've seen so much abuse and crap these past few years. Its probably the industry I'm in and my work in adoptions. I think its great to be concerned, love animals and definitely talk about it but its awesome when you are proactive and helping to find solutions. It doesnt have to cost a lot of money or even time. just a consistent plan and commitment. As I type this I wait for a quote on programming to build that foster pet connection site I keep talking about. Its going to help so many people and animals. I hope you'll all support me. |
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lol - oh girl you sound like me now! |
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I'm going back to work! |
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Cheers Aj |
Interesting article on the legal considerations of Michael Vick's ban on owning animals. CLICK HERE
In regards to the severity of Vick's crimes, I found the following part of the article to be particularily interesting: "The ongoing nature of his conduct remains serious cause for concern and understandably contributes to the enduring distrust of his repeated public assertions of remorse and reformation. Some additional yet basic risk factors one should consider in assessing Mr. Vick’s case and the continuing threat convicted abusers present to society include: 1.The vulnerability of his victims; 2.The large number of his victims; 3.The number of victimizing incidents; 4.The severity of the injury and methods used to kill; 5.The duration of the abuse; 6.The degree of pre-planning or premeditation; 7.The existence of other criminal conduct at the scene of the animal abuse (e.g., drugs, gun law violations, gambling); 8.The fact that this offender served as an instigator of criminal acts involving multiple other perpetrators; and 9.The offender’s history of positive interactions with the victim animal(s) prior to the abuse. In light of these factors, it is difficult to discern how Mr. Vick’s supporters could reasonably believe that he should be allowed to exercise control over another dog. The Animal Legal Defense Fund strongly disagrees with that view and recommends the longest possible ban on ownership be maintained. Whether his supporters are truly concerned about animal welfare or just too invested in Mr. Vick’s “comeback” to give a damn about the fate of the next dog who comes under Mr. Vick’s control—you will have to decide for yourself." |
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that Mr. Vick be allowed to own another dog. I just don't think that he should spend the rest of his life in jail, be completely unemployable or, as Mr. Carlson suggested on TV, be executed. That is a far cry from suggesting that the man should own pets.
While I know that some here might think I'm being hyperbolic about the employment, I am willing to bet that if Mr. Vick were banned from playing in the NFL for life and got a job coaching at, say, a high school the same people here who want to see him continually punished would then say "how can he be allowed to teach at a high school?!" If he got a job as a street sweeper, a hue and cry would be raised. Once you've decided that someone should pay and pay and pay there is very little that will be granted to that person in the future. If the best Mr. Vick could do was working the grill at McDonald's there would be people who would say that they would NEVER AGAIN patronize a McDonald's because of his employment there. Cheers Aj Quote:
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As for employment: the man CERTAINLY has a right to provide for himself and his family. Should social stigma follow him and perhaps prevent him from working in some jobs? It depends upon your personal values. The severity of his crimes were the reason why I posted the article. I abhor people who buy a dog and then tie it out in the back yard and throw food at it once a day. But THAT is negligence, and ignorance. Michael Vick tortured and killed HUNDREDS of dogs. He knew full well that it was illegal. He hid his crimes. In my world that makes him a dispicable human being. He has the right to gainful employment, but I wouldn't hire him, nor would I support any business that did. That's freedom of expression. ETA: Obviously there are many people who ARE ready to support him, or at least forget about his crimes, as I haven't heard anything about the Eagles stands being empty for their games. |
Why don't people get all up in arms when football players physically and sexually abuse women? I've been on butch femme websites for like 11 or 12 years now and never seen anything, but I've seen multiple threads about Vick.
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Actually there have been threads about that Bully. But they were not specifically Football players. ie~ Mike Tyson, etc. :hangloose: :daywalker: |
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What people don't realize is that there are people like Michael Vick working in places we shop and support on a daily basis....how can you pick and choose where to spend your money? You can't ask for EVERYONE'S criminal record and then decide not to shop there. When 9/11 happened, MY family business was affected because of the terrorists. The ignorance of people never fails to amaze me. We sell oriental rugs from India....a peaceful country that had NOTHING to do with what happened that day. But, people decided not to support OUR business because we sold a product that "the terrorists made and our money would be going to support more terrorism." That affected MY livelihood...still does to this day. I believe in the good of people and hope that he learned something from his stint in Leavenworth. I still watch the NFL, even if they did let him play again. I even watched the Eagles get their asses kicked last night. No harm, no foul in my opinion. If by chance he gets another dog, I am sure there will be so many eyes on him it won't even be funny! Hopefully he has changed and become a better person through all of this. It will haunt him for the rest of his life, no matter how many good things he does or tries to do. He has a life sentence in THAT alone. Just my little opinion on this topic.... |
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Because animal rights are very en vogue right now. |
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