I would have preferred him to be taken alive as well, but I am not sure how feasible that was without him surrendering willingly. I see things being run much differently under Obama than they were previously or would have been under McCain. I don't see this as revenge. I see it as a demonstration of at least partial competence in dealing with a terrorist leader- that our Intelligence, Commander In Chief/President and Military worked in unison to get the job done. It wasn't perfect. There are no easy solutions to difficult problems. We could have not pursued him, but I am not sure what good that would do. For those critical of what has taken place I am wondering what they would do instead.

We live in a country (USA) where we have certain freedoms and privileges. We dont always understand the mindset of what other cultures and religions uphold as more important. We have generations of people that were forced to marry or in prearranged marriages because it was necessary for financial or religious reasons. We now have the luxury of choosing our lifemates because we fall in love or we want someone to provide us a good lifestyle,or for whatever our reasons...it is ours to choose. I got to know a Pakistani man here in my barrio that I respect completely. His marriage was prearranged and he just had his 3rd child last year. He has been married to his wife for 15 years. He showed me pictures of the family and he appeared proud of his children. I asked him about his prearranged marriage and having been with his wife that long I asked him when he had fallen in love with her. He looked at me strangely and said...."I dont know about love,I have no feelings that way. When I go home to visit my family every two years, I have my own private quarters in the house. I am there to have my needs taken care of and see to it that the children will one day be the providers of the family." The families all live together in one huge home,brothers and their wives and children,parents,grandparents. It is the duty of the first born son to provide for the whole extended family. Ali is the third born son,he had to take on this responsibility because the first and second son were both handicapped. But he takes it with great pride. He has spent more time away from his family than with. So I guess its like that old song of Tina Turner...Whats love got to do with it? Bin Laden, I am sure knew he would meet his maker sooner rather than later... and what better way to show his family the greatest reward than the afterlife, with him....the martyr. Maybe this was the only way he knew for showing his family a love greater than anything he was capable of giving?

We don't know anything about his relationships. Assuming it was exploitative reads like cultural stereotyping.

Rockybcn; Bin Ladin was'nt a martyr. What martyr cowers behind his wife? Ghandi was a martyr! Ghandi predicted that Pakistan and India would be at war. His prophesy was 4 wars to be exact. "Each one being worse than the previous". Ghandi even was willing to give up his entire cabinet including Nehru for a Moslem cabinet to keep India united because the Hindu's out-numbered the Moslems.

Folks; I just heard the Telegraph news say that Osama Bin Laden DID NOT cower behind his wife, nor use her as a shield like some cowards.

Wow, I have gotten to post #26 and I had to stop and take a deep breath because I will be 100% honest with you all today, I am sick to my stomach, physically want to throw up sick after reading members of this community use racial slurs such as what's been used.

Ender, first of all how dare you take it upon yourself to be ok as a WHITE male in this world and use the word *jap* and *spic*?? I am disgusted OFFENDED and I can not believe I read what I just read, could you not have used the * for the words (ex: j** or sp***) and explained the shortened versions of the racial slurs for japanese and mexican people??

Do you know how disgusting and disheartening it was to see you an *evolved* (as you proclaim) member of this site use these terms so freely? A white member using these terms so freely when you are a person who posts with intellectual wit you chose to fucking use these terms?? Really???

Did you take the time to think how this may or is making some of us feel here?

Same thing with the shortening of Paskistani PEOPLE WHAT is wrong with you people?? What is going on with the blatant disrepect and blatant RACISM that I have had the displeasure to witness from the white members of this community?? Why is it that we (POC) are not given a grain of thought when you come up in here and post these slurs?

Why is it, that a white human being thinks they are entitled to so much space? Why can't I have the same kind of safe space, the same kind of consideration?

Why is it, that if a POC continues to ask white members of this community to refer to us as this and not this, white members of this community do not listen?

Why is it that white members of this community think they can continue to use racial slurs, tell us (POC) what we can and can't be called, and why is it that no matter how much anyone points it out it continues?

I'm angry, sad, and DISGUSTED and I've only reached post # 26 at all the racism that has been displayed.

I'd like to address this, since it was directed towards me. I can understand why you are upset and rightfully so, and actually I did stop and think whether to post the slurs in their full spelling. I'm sorry that you were upset by it, but I would like to explain my reasoning.

The reason I chose to do so is this: Two people in this thread saw fit to shorten the word Pakistani, which is a well known racial slur for South Asians. I was fairly shocked at seeing people throwing the word around as though it were appropriately interchangeable with "Pakistani" and not even mods seemed phased by the use of that slur despite that in the past this forum has been anti-racist.

And that is why I chose to type out its equivalent among other ethnicities in full: Because it should be shocking to everyone, and just as shocking as terms that I've seen more people here averse to using. There should not be a racial hierarchy any more than there should be a gender hierarchy. It is not "more ok" to use derogatory terms for Pakistanis than it is to use them for the Japanese, Chinese or those who hail from Central and South America. I get the impression that those who used those terms still do not understand that they are on par with the terms I used.

Btw, the reason I put them in quotations was because I was not referring to the people that some use them to refer to, but referring to the slurs themselves as a way of pointing out how inappropriate and shocking it should be to use the Pakistani equivalent, and that calling Pakistanis derogatory terms is EXACTLY on par with the two slurs I used to make my point (and hopefully you did at least see my point). And that is exactly what the post said: that it was just as offensive as those words...so if people are barely going to bat an eye at someone using racial slurs towards Pakistanis, then maybe they need to think about what their reaction might be if the posters had used other slurs.

So please, by all means continue to be disgusted and horrified. In fact, everyone should be, and if you choose to feel that way about me, by all means do so if it means people are going to wake up and realise that South Asians and Arabs are human beings as well and by no means "fair game" for racial slurs just because certain governments and medias wage war on them.

As for my supposed "evolved" state...well, hopefully at least now I've dispelled that thought from your mind. I'm certainly no more or less evolved than any other human being, and this isn't any attempt at false modesty. If this is what you think of me then I'd like to say that I'm a pretty pathetic human being in most cases with little ability to interact with people without turning into a nervous wreck, whether I tend to be a long-winded nervous wreck or not. I thought I'd just add this because I really don't hold any lofty illusions about myself, in fact quite the opposite and I'm just as fallible as anyone else. Perhaps I should have censored those slurs and perhaps it was a mistake not to, but hopefully you can understand why I thought it necessary at the time considering that few actually seemed to be shocked at all by the racial slur for Pakistanis used on the first page by popcorninthesofa and rocky. I thought people should have been shocked by it as much as any other, but perhaps I went about displaying why they should be shocked in the wrong way. Things are always easier in retrospect.

Cheers,

Ender

With all due respect Ender, that is not your word to use, you don't own those words, you certainly do not live them or have to bear them, so using them as an example doesn't make it any better, if you wanted to make a point you could of very easily by explaining without using a word or offering an explanation as you did AFTER the fact. It's harmful, being now that you use them I guarantee some other ass hat will too since *you* thought you could, and YOU can't you are white.... This is what is tiring when a white person still continues to give me an excuse and validation to why they used them, you can't so don't please.

Snow............

Several times in various places on this forum, you (and only you) have suggested it's inappropriate for white folks to use the terms 'red', 'brown', 'yellow' and 'black'. If that is true, why is it ok for you to use the term 'white'? You are not white, so why should you get to use that term? At least that is how I understand your logic.

Just to be clear, I don't give two shits if you call me white, of European descent, honkey, whitey or any other version or slur about white folks. I just don't like what looks and feels like a hypocritical stance. I don't think that is your intention, but it sure looks and feels that way to me.

Toughy AREN'T you assuming I'm not white? or that I have no white brothers, sisters, Dad, Uncles, Aunts, Cousins, or better yet the person who raped my mother and hence who I came to be was. Did you ever bother to ask that to yourself?

And why can't I as a POC ask that we not be compared to crayola? Curious Toughy I really am, and once again why is it that when a POC color even if it's Snow again asking why can't it be respected?

Actually, I was thinking that the US asked the Pakistani gov't not to talk about it and to feign ignorance. In previous actions it was blasted all over the news and that took the edge off the action. So it actually makes a lot of sense not to blab decisions as much on the air.

Have you guys looked around our community? How many POC stick around? How many of us are posting and hanging out in here without having to call ism after ism after ism. Does it make us wonder why after some of the posts in here? Or do you just not care?

I would like to clarify that NONE of the racial slurs and covert racial pokes were done in any Red Zone threads. Even then I would think we would not go on there and use them since it's clearly not ok.

Putting in my .02

Until two mins ago I didn't know that the P word was a slur... I've used it because the word Pakistani is just longer to say and type. I assumed it was like Okie and Arkie...

Wiktinary is your friend...

I have a real question that I've been biting my tongue over.

If you have a POC saying please don't refer to POC by their skin color, and then you have another POC stating that they prefer to be called by their skin color then how do you not make a racial statement when talking about race?

Snows request to V to not use skin color vs AJ (Dreadgeeks) request to not be called POC or African American, but Black is what brought this question to mind.

I also thought that everyone was individual and that one person couldn't speak for all people.

I am confused... I'm not being snarky or have a grudge against Snow... I'm just a bit confused about the rules for talking about race on this board.. Do I discount the preferences of my acquaintance in real time to accomidate one persons personal preference?

I can understand one person saying.. Do not refer to me by my color, but It confuses me to have one person speak for all.

I don't post in the racial threads because I really don't want to make a major fux pas while stumbling my way through unlearning white privilage and racism....

I will say this directly to Snow: You have always identified yourself as a POC, latina to be specific. You always speak as a POC in these conversations. What else would you have me believe about you? Are you telling me now that you are white or mixed race? I don't understand. My beliefs about you were not created in a vacumn without you. I was asking for clarification, not being disrespectful. It is ALWAYS right to ask for clarification of anyone if you don't understand something they are saying or asking.

As far as I know, there is no beef between me and Snow. We disagree from time to time about some subjects. For Me that does NOT add up to a personal beef. June, can you clarify for me why you think I have a personal beef with Snow? You and I have never had a conversation about Snow.

I addressed Snow because she is the one who has broached the subject of using 'crayola colors' when refering to POC. My questions and statements were about clarification of what she has requested......it was not a personal attack. In retrospect, I should have stated my questions and comments differently and left Snow's name out of it. I should have addressed the concepts only as I am doing below.

This is about terminology when refering to people and their ancestral origins. It has been stated that using the colors black, yellow, red, brown is not ok for white folks. However it is apparently ok to call folks of AngloSaxon/Europeon descent white. That is not a logical position. If white folks can't call POC by colors, then POCs can't call Europeans white. If brown is wrong, then white is wrong. It is accepted that racial slurs of any sort are wrong. It's wrong to call a black person the 'n' word and it's wrong to call a white person 'whitey' or 'honkey'. Crayola colors are no different. Respect is a two way street.

I also must point out something that is glaringly obvious to me. It is absolutely not logical to say don't call POC by color. The term POC means People of Color. The term itself is about skin color other than white.

I don't believe creating a minefield of acceptable/unacceptable words is useful. I know plenty of folks from all kinds of ancestry that don't have any issue with crayola colors. There are black folk in this country who do NOT claim Africa as their ancestry and don't want to be called African Americans. I know black folk from Brazil, who speak Portuguese, that would be way pissed if you called them African. I know white folks from Africa who consider themselves Africans. Africans can be white or black. US citizens can be black and from anywhere in the world. Same goes for brown and red and yellow and white.

I also would make a request. I think this conversation needs to happen in a respectful way. It does not belong in a thread about Pakistan's knowlege about bin Laden. Perhaps a new thread could be started about terminology and the appropriate posts could be put in it.....we need the context so future readers will see where it came from.

Random when I addressed the skin color issue it was directed at white people, who have and do not own the words that POC or the preferences on how to be prefered, does that make sense?

POC know how to navigate around each other's labels, it's when white people assume they can tell a POC even if it's one what they can and can't use. I hope that makes sense and clarifies a bit

Toughy, you assumed I had no white, and if we want to get to the nitty gritty I can't not even in a census claim it since I am of Hispanic descent as they so kindly put it, when I check the census box I check what I am and that is Hispanic or better yet LATINO/A. Just because I was or have some form of white origin in me (btw I don't know exactly since the deed was not consentual) that doesn't mean I was raised, or am I culturally so, I was born in Mexico, my mother is mexican and so is my other family, now the man who raised me is white, he is my father the only one I know of. I don't have to explain why I use LATINA as my label just the same way I don't ask you to explain to me why at one time you use she or others hy.

Do you not see how disrespectful and ugly that is? It's who I am I am LATINA the other blood or heritage that is in my DNA doesn't erase the fact I was raised as such, born as such and kept as such and yet my labels and how I choose to identify are continously questioned by people of lighter skin than myself. I don't even get to choose to use white if I wanted to Tougy and you care to know why?

Cause for some fucked up unknown reason people who are lighter than I and see my darker skin *automatically* assume I don't even belong here or hthat I am not American.

I am, I live in the United States of America, I am a LATINA woman, not a brown woman, my name is Snow and I am a LATINA woman who happens to have a dash of non LATINO blood in me yet I still can't identify as so because not only do caucasians not allow it, neither does a goverment when counting the great people of this nation.

I don't feel this is a derailment of the thread, the racial slurs that have been used and have been thrown in clear print, yet for some fucked up unknown reason people want to jump down on me for not allowing them?

Do you not see the ridiculousness of that?

Should I just continue to sit silent and not derail a thread when racist comments are being made? I just don't understand how much more (even if it ONE POC saying please don't) this community expects for POC to take.

Is that the goal, to have all POC silenced regardless of how small and simple the request and for the sake of not derailing?

Is this for realz?

Maybe I should have put it in the Red Zone- although, I thought only admin/mods could do that.

Saying this because the nature of the subject matter is obviously bringing up many controversies. I honestly wanted to talk about what effect bin Laden's death (and the way it was done) in relation to Pakistan and the US's relationship.

I don't know what the decision process is for moving a thread to the Red Zone, but request that that be considered.

i agree that we have few POC here and had few at the other site. There is a reason they leave. It's not THIS site's or even the other's fault although they were way lax and late about addressing the racism issue. It's a social issue. It's something we have to work at to change because if we don't, there is too much racism for most POC to tolerate.

That said, i think using a pejorative in quotes is OK if you are discussing the word and its use, not using it to offend. If it offends, it is OK to scale it back to a usage such as the n-word. But using the words in quotes is not a racist act. That it can still hurt is clear. And if that is the case, and someone tells you to stop, then by all means stop.

The same with the word "Black." i use African American at least 90 percent of the time. i hear myself use "Black" sometimes, sometimes in the context of asking someone's race. My students, who are African American and Latino, use it regularly and not as a pejorative. i just read a lovely poem by a student about her black pride. She was riffing off of a Tupac poem.

As always we should address and refer to people as they choose. i do not think modding someone for culturally accepted practices makes a lot of sense though.

Racism needs to be discussed where it occurs, not moved to another thread- although other aspects of language usage and terminology could make for an additional useful discussion.

Unfortunately racism has played a role in what has occurred as well as this discussion.

I am extremely angry that a President of the United States feels compelled to trot out his birth certificate to prove that he is a U.S. citizen. The constant message is if you aren't white your U.S. citizenry is suspect.

I also feel that President Obama is not getting the respect or credit he deserves for succeeding in the mission to get Bin Laden.

It also boggles my mind that they would use a Native American name as a code word for Bin Laden. How could members of the National Security Council- including President Obama- not know how inappropriate, hurtful and disrespectful this is?

Different POC individuals want to be referred to differently. We have different pronoun preferences, gender ids, etc. So why would that be surprising.

Here is my OP statement (#1)-

A poll and place to discuss the role, if any of Pakistan's government or military having knowledge that bin Laden was living under their noses.

For a discussion of what this might mean for the future US relationship between the US and Pakistan if it turns out that Pakistan was harboring him.

What should, if anything the US do about the billions of dollars per year we give Pakistan?

Is this relationship helpful in building better relations with Islam at all and this part of the world? Or, is the US using Pakistan in some ways? Or, are we engaged with Pakistan because it has nuclear weapons and a negative relationship with India?

And any other points people want to bring up! It is a complex situation and grows even more complex with the US killing of bin Laden in Pakistan in a manner that some believe to be wrong- entering a sovereign nation to kill someone without permission to do so.

me in this color

I absolutley loathe the term 'caucasian'. It enforces the idea there are only 3 racial groups: Cacasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid. It ignores the idea that race is a social construct. It inhibits our ability to understand race and gender as social contructs and not scientific fact.
Understanding that race is not science, makes it easier to move forward on issues of equality

I'm not doing the merry go round with you Toughy where you act like you didn't mean anything or it wasn't personal, or you weren't just singling it me out because frankly I don't believe you. I am noticing that my use of the word white is getting more attention and more lecturing than the other racist slurs that were used.

That's odd to me and tells me A LOT.

I don't get why it's so hard to not use the words, why can't a person be considerate enough to just listen, and frankly white is not an offensive nor is it an oppressing term to use when referring to people nor has white been used historically, socially as an opressing term.

It's beyond me how you can't see it and honestly telling how once again no matter how much a POC (even if one) asks that people aren't going to listen because it's gonna be all about the majority and certainly not the minority.

Snow I am sorry you think I am a liar and think we have some sort of bad blood between us. Neither of those things are true for me. I was hoping for a conversation about ideas with you and other folks.....conversations are not merry-go-rounds in my mind.

It is very disheartening to try to be clear and not have you understand it. I don't know what else to do or say. It is disheartening to have you not address my questions so I may be able to understand your position. I truly want to understand what I saw as an inconsistency in your statements.


I have no issues with how Ender used those racial slurs. I agree with the idea that those words can be spelled out and used in conversation in a non-racist manner. I dont' believe the context in which Ender used those terms to be racist. It was, in fact, pointing out racism.

I have not nor will I ever refer to you personally as a brown woman. You request Latina and it will as always be Latina, when appropriate, in reference to you as I stated above. I respect your preferences. I also respect other POC folks preferences. I call people what they want. Sometimes what one person likes, another hates. Someone pointed out it's similiar to pronouns.......there are personal preferences.

The issue is what is the acceptable culture for the Planet. I'm not sure how to address that because of the differences of opinion among POC about the use of 'crayola color' when referring to POC. It is a conundrum for sure.

Happy Mother's Day tomorrow........I hope you have a great one.

We're not going to agree on how words should be used since for you they have a different feel to them, I did not nor do I like when a person who is not of any kind of LATINO/A descent uses the words sp** and it's a disgusting and ugly term, it shouldn't matter how it was used, what should matter is a member of a community as that those terms not be used, or better yet take the time to refer to someone by their cultural reference.

I don't see you Toughy calling out (that's what this has turned to) any other person but me for using the term *white* there are other POC that have yet you are *choosing* to police me, and continue to deflect it on me because of the word white??

I am now up to GAWD knows how many posts explaining over and over why I felt the way I did, and all I've gotten is the wagging of the finger for using the words white.

As I said earlier, I get the big picture, and even though the slurs were used, and only one POC (me) says don't do it it's not going to be listened to, what this has now turned into as this is how it feels to me as a member of this community that how I address a white person is being scrutinized.

Consider me silenced I should of known my place.

ETA

This is not the first time I have asked in a mannerly fashion for the word sp*** to not be used.

shaking my head............you will attach whatever you want to what I write.......my words are there to speak for me

(except for moderators on this website) the only person who can silence you is yourself..........

That word and many others have no place here or anywhere.

No one's asking you to shed a tear about anything Toughy.

I disagree with you though about the wife and children not having to be there. Why wouldn't they be there? This was her husband, their father -where else were they likely to be?

You might not care about a 12 year old seeing her father blown to bits but me? Yeah, I have an issue with it. I've met children like that before, seen what it does to them, and I'm sorry, but given that Bin Laden wasn't armed, I just don't get why killing him in front of his family was necessary.

And no, I don't care who he was, or what he did - I'd say exactly the same thing were we talking about Hitler. Sins of the fathers, and all that.

Words

Thank you. i normally don't get "upset" by posts, but an earlier one saying that his wives were there probably just for sex and that the kids were just basically thought of as new canon fodder for the revolution nearly made me wretch.

That is classic othering. CLASSIC dehumanization of the other. If you say someone cannot love their wives or their children, what are they? If we dehumanize others, then we are doing exactly what Osama did, which is what made it possible for him to kill innocents.

This brings me back to working with foster kids, far too many of them seeing a parent (or both) murdered. They never get over this. In some cases, the parents knew they were putting their kids in harms way, but drug induced states clouded common sense.

I don't believe bin Laden should have had his kids in that situation in the first place. It goes against my every thread of what parent protection ought to be.

However, I realize that I am speaking from a very different cultural perspective. I have never lived (well, until 9/11- but still very different than countless countries where this stuff goes on almost daily) with this kind of violence surrounding me as part of life.

There are many, many of us here in the US that derive no satisfaction from the killing of his kids or some of them seeing this. They are little kids.

It is the "part of life" worldwide that bothers me- and what feels like a lack of any regard for figuring out how we (the US) can change how we are viewed. This bothers me deeply. There is no “closure” here at all.

I am not always perfect. I try to be. I try to always see the humanity in folks. I certainly am not celebrating his death or the manner in which he was killed. As I said my preference was alive and in our civilian judicial system.

As to why an unarmed man was killed........without being there I cannot say why it happened. Having been in the military I can see how it would happen. War kills unarmed folks. There was every justified expectation that bin Laden was armed and dangerous. He had said he would not be taken alive.

However your point is taken. It is a bad thing to not really care about what a woman and her child saw, regardless of who they are.