Thanks for the reply julie. I can understand not using certain terms or using certain terms that your husband doesn't like/likes when referring to him. But what about other trans people? That's why I don't like her use of the word "tranny" here. If she were referring to her husband, then I would understand. I guess what I'm trying to understand is why the word that one uses for one's significant other needs to be assumed for other trans people (especially when it's a well-known slur)? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you?

Ender, you make some excellent thinking points in this post. It's never up to the majority to decide what is offensive to the minority.

But see maybe she is just learning and then uses the terms her husband is comfortable with and is told those are not ok. It is a learning curve.

We know a transman who has limited experience in the trans community and zero experience in the queer community. Wow does he put his foot in in sometimes!!! I would never tell him he was homophobic or transphobic. I just explain how others might hear that remark.

So no you are not misunderstanding me. I don't have the answers in this case. My partner sure would not put up with me calling him or anyone else a tranny. We don't know how it works for these folks.

All I am really trying to say is that partners worry A LOT about being transphobic. I wonder is this the transition I am responding to or just some stuff of my partner's? Is my reaction transphobic? And sometimes it just might be!!! I worry much less about this nowadays. I know what is ok for my partner and for the community. But I learned by screwing up!!!

Ah okay got it. She had altercations with other transmen. I missed that. Sorry.

I absolutely did not say that slurs are acceptable. I said that in this context, she probably didn't realize that some people would take it as a slur. As has already been mentioned, this couple lives in Canada. Where they live, it's not a slur. It's incredibly unfair to expect someone to not use a word that's in common use and not offensive where they live, just because it is offensive in a completely different country.

I don't live in a completely different country. I'm Canadian. I know plenty of people around here who find the slur offensive. Other Canadians in the comment area from Vancouver themselves voiced that they didn't appreciate the use of the word tranny.

She's also writing this in a popular nation-wide LGBT newspaper (Xtra), that is given out for free in newspaper boxes on street corners across this city and across other Canadian cities. This isn't exactly her personal blog.

Oh yeah, I definitely understand that when people are new to something it takes them time to learn. I'm pretty sure all of us have unknowingly made some pretty horrible statements in our time. I know I've said some things that I've regretted just because I didn't know better.

I guess to me it comes down to how willing or sensitive people are to learning. Her comments just don't sound at all like she wants to learn, they seem directly in response to the criticism of these "rah rah trannies" whoever they were.

It just makes her sound like she was wronged by some trans people who criticized the way she was dealing with her husband's transition, and so she took that opportunity to rail against them using derogatory language.

I know emotions can be high when you have to deal with a loved one's transition. But, for me, the question here is when is going too far, really going too far? How many derogatory things can a person express out of anger before it becomes officially hurtful and crosses the imaginary line?

I get that some people use this sort of language without bad intent. One of my roommates who's trans uses the word tranny to refer to herself all the time. That's her identity, but she respects others' identity at least. I just didn't get that from her article, and on to of that those aren't words, to me, cis people should be saying.

And its not that I'm not supportive of SOs who are dealing with their partner's transitions. It's not that I don't understand that sometimes people need to express what they're feeling about a tough situation without judgement. I really think it's important for family and loved ones to get support and counseling, too. It seems that she wasn't getting the support she needed and that truly sucks. At the same time, if someone's unapologetically saying things like those two comments she made...that I find really, really hard to accept. I don't think I can. Basically...I support her until she starts railing against an already marginalized group...

Ender I went back and read the article again. I also read the comments section. There is some good discussion on her use of tranny. It seems that her husband uses this word quite deliberately and so her using it could not be seen as a mistake or not knowing better. In that case it could be seen as deliberately divisive. I think she chose her words carefully and so she does have to be responsible for offending some transpeople.

I still support her speaking out. Much of what she said rang true for me. Sometimes it is hard to know where we fit in. Some think my partner can no longer claim Butch as an ID.

This is a hard subject to talk about. I do not want to offend anyone and yet I feel and understand her frustration.

You are right though that the word was used intentionally and so therefore is offensive to you and lots of other people, even though her partner chooses to identify as a tranny.

precisely
 

I looked for support but found very little because partners don’t generally talk about the difficulties we face in transition. Nobody wants to be the one to say, “This fucking hurts,” lest we be judged by the politically fuelled who would label us transphobic.

(from the original article)




....but no one discusses this

I grew up in redneck, USA... when I hear the word "tranny" I flash back to shade tree mechanics talking about transmission repair. But yeah, I feel like the word carries some derogatory connotations to it for most folks, whether intended or not by the writer/speaker.

I thought we were discussing it. What do you want to discuss about it? It will be different here than in a room full of partners. I am ok with discussions of transphobia as well as sharing my experience.

I'm actually very interested in hearing more experiences on what it felt like for SO's of trans people. If anyone else would like to share. I mean you don't have to go into detail if you don't want to but I would like to know what it felt or feels like on the other end. Like the woman in the article shared and like some others have already shared.

Honestly, when I read the phrase "rah rah tranny people" I figured she wasn't speaking about actual transpeople. I figured she was speaking about the cheerleaders, who may not actually be trans themselves.

It's like the term trannychaser. Which is a term I like, frankly. Because it's so fucking spot-on.

In other news: No. Nobody does talk about what it's like to be the SO of someone who is transitioning. It's just fucking not fashionable for the SO to have feelings, especially if not all of those feelings are "rah rah rah GOOOOOOOOOO transperson! wooo!"

True story. Someone I was living with (10 years ago) dropped the "oh hi, I just this week realised that I'm a man and next week I have an appointment at the gender clinic!" (liar liar liar) bomb on me shortly after we moved in together.

Now, he had money troubles. Big money troubles. I was working full-time and he was just on-call at his job. So sometimes I had to pay more than my share of our expenses. I was cool with that because I knew I made more money than he did. So after he started going to his appointments and support groups and hanging out with his cool new boyfriends - he also started buying a shitload of new clothes. I very specifically remember this one month he didn't have money for his half of the phonebill but the next day he came home with a new fucking hoodie. So I called him out on it and he was all *tearfull* *earnest* "But I feel like I pass better in this sweatshirt".

I. Completely. Lost. My. Shit. I absolutely said that "frankly I do not give a fuck if you pass or not at this juncture. Right now I am way more concerned about whether or not we get our telephone cut off." Aaaaaand the universe blew up. "I cannot believe you would say something so TRANSPHOBIC!" blah blah blah. Fuck, I even had to hear what a horrible person I am from some of our mutual friends who he has whined to.

Couple that with the fact that he was, honestly, my First Real Girlfriend and I was feeling real mindjobby about that too (because I was really REALLY stoked to have a First Real Girlfriend, let me tell you.) But you know, I was never allowed to say that out loud to him. And I was never allowed to talk to anybody else about it because saying outloud that I felt ripped off because I no longer had a girlfriend (and what I really wanted was a fucking girlfriend!) was TRANSPHOBIC.

And it really fucking sucks. We are not allowed to have any feelings or disclose any negative experiences because to do so is TRANSPHOBIC. It's almost as if as soon as the person we are with starts to transition we are no longer allowed to be people. We're not allowed to have feelings, unless they are "rah rah rah!".

ETA: More true stories! I have broken up with exactly two other people since then because they decided to transition after we got together. Not because I am TRANSPHOBIC (although I have heard that I am) but because that's just not the relationship that I want to be in. Early on in the transitioning process is often a really selfish/self-absorbed time-frame in a person's life...and so it should be. I certainly am not in any position to tell other people what they should or should not do...but I think it's a time-frame where people are best off single. Or at the very least they are (or I am, more likely) best off not dating ME.

I'm reluctant to throw "transphobic" around because nobody wants to be put on the spot where they have to defend personal actions that come from specific, individualized experiences. I might be considered transphobic because I've said here and in other spaces that I'm not really interested in dating someone who is transitioning or who identifies as male. I will support anyone's decision to transition, and if I'm in a position to be an ally, then I'll always be that. But there are times when the personal trumps the political, and I think that's what is at work in the original author's relationship.

I don't find this transphobic at all?

I chose to be with my husband, yet still I had to accept his body hair, the way he smelled, the lack of breasts, my lost identity, my heterosexuality, the questions I asked myself and others asked of me. I was a lesbian and his 'trans' identity didn't change the fact that I was now in a relationship with a man.

I'm glad they stayed together, just as I'm glad I still have my amazing man :love1:

It's not throwing around transphobia needlessly when the word "tranny" is used by cis people to talk about a group of trans people, or when transphobia is depicted as something that trans people throw at cis people to make them feel guilty or negate their feelings. Sorry, but I continue to see her two statements as transphobic. I don't find her feelings over her husbands transition transphobic, nor would I find it transphobic if she left him. In fact, I think it's probably a good idea for a relationship to end if a cis person can't deal with their partner's transition. If they find their partner "hard to love" because of their transition...maybe a break up is better for both, because I know I wouldn't want to be "harder to love" just because of who I am.

And this is where I get back to the questions I was trying to ask before:

At what point does being angry or hurt stop justifying the use of transphobic language. Does it ever? Or is transphobic language always something that trans people should just have to put up with if the person using it is "hurting" or dealing with a partner's transition.

This, to me, is what support groups have always been for. Getting out negative feelings in an SO-only environment without projecting it onto a whole group or a certain individual out of a marginalized group.

I read the article. It did bother me that her tone was so flip about such an important subject. Her use if the word "tranny" made me cringe!

We do not know how her partner took that article or how it made him feel to read it it.

That said, it is a serious and important topic. I watched a documentary on Netflix recently called Gender Rebels. It was quite good. One of the 3 subjects was around the life of a lesbian couple and the process that the femme went through when her partner transitioned.

Her grief and fear was valid and real. There was nothing phobic about it. She knew her lover one way for quite a while and then she needed to view her lover in quite another. She did not know if she would lose their lesbian friends or how it would affect their life.

I believe that there is a grieving process involved for any change as massive as this one.

The documentary showed hers. As her lover transitioned-he became happier while she dealt with her sadness. In the end, it appeared that the love that she had for him was greater than her fears of loss and they remained together.

As a lesbian, I do not know what I would do in the same situation but would like to think that I would be able to process it in a healthy fashion and as the romantic that I am-believe that love can conquer all.

I think that having your partner transition would be quite different than meeting someone new and knowing from them from the beginning as trans.

I've really never understood how a partner who decides to leave someone who is transitioning could be automatically labeled transphobic (though I know sometimes they are).

If I don't find my life mate in a man it doesn't mean misandry is afoot, it means I'm a lesbian, to sweeten the pot, not just lesbian I am highly attracted to a fairly high degree of "femininity", it's what makes my heart initially go boom. Funny too because like I said, hardly misandry, I've found attraction to a few men who were highly feminine in there masculinity (I know that makes sense probably only to me but what the hey).

From my pov, cause it's all I got, I am with a very feminine femme and she has my heart... even if she turned into a big ol' burly butch (let alone transitioning) I would struggle very very VERY hard with that. I would try damn hard because I love her so much... but if that physical, emotional reaction, attraction is not there after her changes would we not be just best of loving friends? Would I be expected to remain with her out of political correctness? I don't think it would be healthy, we both deserve better.

In any relationship, communication is key, in the situation presented (OP) I'd think a person fearing being wrongly labeled transphobic could permanently shut down that critical flow in the time it most needed for both people involved.

Thank you!!!

It probably wasn't meant this way, but this statement feels like it minimizes the process someone would need to go through when faced with the woman you love becoming the man you love. Maybe it's the use of quotes. Or maybe it is simply the tone I am reading into it because of the quotes.

I don't think someone becomes more difficult to love because of who they are but they may not be someone who you can be in love with if they are a man and you are not attracted to men or they are a woman and you are not attracted to woman. Makes sense to me. It's not about the person being harder to love because of who they are.

No-one needs to put up with phobic language surrounding their identity. However, sometimes pain and anger make us see things in a very myopic way. It does not justify it, but it might, in this case, allow that perhaps the person who used the language is not necessarily transphobic just insensitive. Or not. And trans people or any people for that matter don't have to put up phobic language surrounding their identity because the person using it is hurting or dealing with a partner's transition or whatever. Maybe her husband will because he understands her pain and wants to make allowances or maybe he won't but surely no-one else needs to even consider putting up with it or making allowances at all if they don't want to. And how will she know she is acting in way that is transphobic if no-one tells her. If people explain that what she is saying is hurtful and transphobic and she refuses to accept this and find another way to say the same thing then she IS simply transphobic.

However, it sounds like there is more than her language that is upsetting. It sounds like the idea that someone would be harder to love because of who they are is also a hurtful idea. But I don't think it is about who someone is at all. It might feel that way. But it is not about being harder to love it is simply that people cannot choose what they are sexually attracted to and who they fall in love with. If it is possible for a person to continue to be in love with and sexually attracted to their spouse after transition then i"m sure they will be thrilled. But I don't think it is a choice. And I'm fairly positive that it won't be any harder one way or the other to love the person. They just may not be able to be IN love any longer.

I just wanted to add that I feel the title the woman chose for her blog post is unfortunate. I have been thinking how I would react if my wife decided that she felt she was really a man and needed to transition. I can’t imagine that after loving her for almost nine years that I would find it hard to love him. I may no longer feel the same attraction for him, I may no longer be in love with him, but it would never be that it was hard or easy to love him, it would just simply be, that I do love him. But most likely for me the love would change because I am attracted to women.

I'm sure that's what she meant and finding her way to the IN love again part is what she was referring to. It just made me feel a certain way to read the title of the thread and it took awhile to figure out what was going on for me.

We don't know that the author chose it as the title - it could've been the site editors.

Ah. Okay. That makes more sense. Cause really it is an odd title choice. And doesn't really reflect what she is saying very well.

I used quotations because of the title of the article in question, which is Loving a Trans Man Isn't Easy. Funny enough, I feel like that statement minimizes what trans people go through before finally making the decision to transition. The decision to transition is who they are. The reason transitions are so painful to family and friends to begin with is because of the nature of society, not because of the nature of the trans person.

If they are no longer sexually attracted to their partner, then the decision should be fairly simple: to end the relationship.

The reason I started commenting on this thread is not because of what her husband may or may not be feeling. It's been stated before that he commented that he doesn't take offense to the use of the word tranny because it's a part of his identity. My issue is with the way she talks about a group of "rah rah tranny people", not her husband. We have to remember that this is not a blog. This isn't a forum post. This is an article in a popular Canadian lesbian and gay newspaper. Something tells me that she isn't completely oblivious to how her words can hurt others. The comments by other Vancouverites has told her that those words were offensive to others, if she hadn't figured it out by the time she wrote the article. In fact, the reason the two statements were made seem directly in response to the kind of people who would call out those kind of statements as transphobic. She seems to see making those statements as a part of her grief. Others see it as transphobic because she is not directly talking about her own coping process, but her anger against others who would even use the word transphobia against her.

If they incorrectly called her transphobic because of the fact that she had to cope with her husband's transition and not immediately feel alright with it, then she should have just said she doesn't like being called transphobic because of her uncertainty or feelings of grief over the transition. She doesn't need to reply to them with statements that are transphobic.

My reasons for participating in this thread are not about her grieving process or to criticize it. That is not transphobic. This is not about whether or not she finds her husband attractive or not. That is not transphobic. This is not about whether she ever considered or ever will leave her husband because he is a transman. That, I don't see as transphobic. It's the two statements she made, that I've been pointing out, which carry with them a lot of transphobia.

If the person you love is no longer "easy" to love, or is "harder" to love because of their transition (aka: who they are), which is what the title states, then I don't see the point of the relationship anymore. That's just me. It's not about it being "hurtful," as you say, but I just don't see the point of maintaining that kind of relationship. Some people work it out, that's good for them. Others don't and they split. Good on them, too. Leaving a relationship because your partner is trans isn't transphobic. At least they're being honest and admitting that they don't want that kind of relationship. I'd prefer that to being told I'm not "easy" to love. But to each their own on that point.

I don't have any problem with the title. She was writing about her own experience. For her, it is hard. She's allowed to feel that and she's allowed to say it. Other people in a similar situation are allowed to see that it's not just them, and there's not something wrong with them because they feel the same way. Even if everyone else around them is treating them like they're a terrible person for having trouble, for not instantly knowing the "right" words to use, or for failing to be 100% joyfully supportive. I hope she continues to write about her experience and her feelings, and I hope she doesn't allow herself to be intimidated into silence.

Great thread
 

I have been following this thread and have to admit it's been very informative and has been for the most part a great dialogue. I don't particularly care for labels but I understand the need for them at times. I listed myself as FTM (shorter than transsexual) but I am a man. Always have been except when I was a boy. Like somebody referred to a friend of theirs in a previous post, I have had NO contact with other transsexuals & very little contact with the LGBT community. I totally understand someone using terminology that could/would be offensive to others. For myself all I know is I was definately born in the wrong vessel. Just as people don't choose to be gay, I wouldn't wish this physical hell on anybody. Having said all that, IN MY OPINION this thread seemed to veer off course, to me. It seems to be centered around semantics and terminology. The title is loving a trans man can't be easy. And I'm sure it isn't any easier than being one. This thread did make me think about a lot of issues. My women have all been straight. The reveal was always harder for me than them. Course, I always waited until we were already emotionally vested and I felt she was past the point of no return (yes, I really am that cocky). However, I really never knew any of them to have issues although after reading this thread they must have. Shouldn't they have? Or did they not have any because they fell for a man and didn't have to question their own identity? In the end, the women that have loved me and that I loved me did have a difficult time. Was it because I am a trans man? Kinda. I'm also an ass, a jerk and often caustic and insensitive. Because I'm a trans man. Because I have my own demons.

I think what's being overlooked here is the fact that when a person transitions - they are making a choice and doing it willingly. It's not a simple or easy process and they need and deserve the support they get. The problem is that there really isn't much thought given to the wives and girlfriends who are forced into transitions of their own as part of his transition.

Their partners don't necessarily have a choice. They didn't ask for it and they are very often labelled transphobic if they do decide they can't or won't deal with it. They are expected to be the supporters but are rarely supported themselves. They are not allowed to grieve for the things they will lose - their female partner, their queer identity, their visibility. For them it ends up being a very big trap that very few can navigate successfully. Like it or not, some resentment, frustration, and anger will usually be part of the process and the world of kindness and PC-speak might just take a (hopefully short) vacation.

Almost all of us lost friends and family simply by coming out of the closet. We lost jobs, homes and opportunities that we can never get back. Femmes in particular already struggle with invisibility both inside and outside the queer community. After such a long, hard uphill battle just to be who you are, why would anyone expect them to be PC about being faced with the transition of someone they love?

Transitioning puts the partner back in the closet. After all I've been through just to come out of my closet, I sure as hell would not be the least bit pleasant or nice about being tucked back into one. But - when you are emotionally invested in someone, you don't just walk away. You stay, you struggle and you try to work it out; that is what a committed relationship is all about.

I am reponsible for finding my own support or creating it where it does not exist. A lot of the challenge for partners in my experience does stem from transphobia. I don't like the idea that I am somehow silenced or not supported. I don't feel that way. Is it readily available? No. Are these conversations happening? Yes! I am concerned about the tone of this thread being about partners not being heard. There are a lot of factors that go in to that. No relationship is easy. I am not easy to love by any means.

There are specific issues that partners of transpeople have to deal with. The writer of that article spoke up about these. I understand her words might have upset some people. I needed to hear what she said and I hope other partners can feel empowered to talk about it too. I am not a victim of my partners transition or gender identity.

That's what I read into it. This woman talked at length about being closeted and finally feeling free, yet suddenly she's back where she started and it hurt.

That resonated with me as I had often wondered how things would have turned out had I stayed with my first trans partner (many years ago). He was still in that transient place, between woman and man, and I was an out and proud lesbian, still fighting my corner to be recognised as a feminine lesbian. I really struggled with the realisation ..and guilt.. that a life with him, meant a life of invisibility. Luckily (possibly more for him!) other things intervened and we went our separate ways.

My current partner had long been part of my life before we got together. Perhaps that emotional connection softened the blow, or perhaps my identity doesn't really mean that much to me any more. Unlike the author of that article I have been out for many, many years and many girlfriends have come and gone. I read that article and feel proud for her that ultimately, she loved her partner more than she grieved her own losses.

That's great that your experience has been good. It's great that you don't feel silenced or supported. That's you. A lot of people don't have good experiences and do feel silenced and not supported. Those people aren't wrong or to blame for having a different experience from yours, and they're transphobic because their experience is different.

I don't think I said that my experience was good. I am not saying that anyone is wrong or to blame for having a different experience. I don't feel
silenced because I speak out. I feel supported because I have worked hard to find the support I need. You're right, that's me. I don't think I need to apologize for that. I would not want someone who is just starting with a transgender partner to feel like it is all silence, no support or pain. There was not a lot of support for same sex partners in the past. We have to build those networks and support one another.

So much of the alienation and lack of support I have experienced was from the queer community. That was a bitter pill for me to swallow. I was newly out when I met my partner and all the issues we have been discussing like feeling closeted really took a toll on me in the beginning. I felt like I was not accepted as a lesbian. That hurt so much. It was not what I expected coming out but I met my partner and he is a Transman.

Bit by bit it has gotten better as I have tried to make myself more vulnerable and ask for what I need in my community. Sometimes I still feel alone and like a lesser being in the queer world. I try to be present and sit with that discomfort. Just as you said that people don't want to be judged or blamed, I don't want to either. I'm sorry if you or others interpreted me that way. I am trying to share my experiences.

It seems that you are suggesting in the words I bolded that those who have issues with their partner's transition are selfish in that their needs are taking precedence and that that they just don't love their partner enough if they can't forge a future with them b/c of of it.


If I am reading this correctly, I think that is an unfair implication to those partners who struggle in so many ways--one of the major struggles and mind fucks is that YOU DO still love them but must balance that love with one's own needs and not negate one's own struggles and desires.

Actually that's not what I'm saying at all, but then again, don't most breakups involve selfishness of some sort? I have no judgements on couples that don't last as I'm far more interested in couples that do!

I struggled to get myself out of the closet, and I made a decision at some point that nobody will be shoving me back into one. My life is as important as the life of whomever I'm with. When I came out, I found myself attracted to people with an entire array of identities - and matching an identity with the attraction/chemistry was like playing pin-the-tail-on-the-sexy-ass-masculine-person-in-a-seemingly-female-body. It took me a while to learn that however a person presents on the outside, there's no telling how that person identifies or feels on the inside unless it's discussed honestly.

Of the people I've dated since coming out, some have been butch, some have been trans, some have been bois, some have not identified, some have been femmish (I'm using the term "date" very loosely here...).

I've known many who have spoken of transitioning and not gone through with it (at least not yet). I've known others who never speak of it, then just start it.

I think honesty is a two-way street, and you can only admit to somebody else what you are willing to admit to yourself. Since I spent much time figuring out my gender and orientation and what I want in life and relationship and communing with my community, I try to be out and open early-on that I identify as a lesbian and do not want to ever ever go back in the closet. I don't want to live a closeted life or have to pretend to be straight for the sake of my partner. I wasn't happy in my "heterosexual" marriage. I wouldn't leave my girlfriend if she decided to transition - and I'd still love her and think she was hot as hell. But I wouldn't pretend to be straight in order to fit myself into the world that her transition might create. I would miss her as she is now, but I would adore her regardless. I don't have the inner resources or desire to create and protect a "stealth" life - and if asked to do so I don't think I could if I tried - and I don't think I would try. I think it can be really difficult when one person being true to himself becomes at-odds with a femme's being true to herself. Love has the capacity to make many things possible and to overcome many difficulties, but I'm pretty committed to being true to myself no matter what goes on with my partner. I definitely think femmes are expected to cheerlead unforeseen transitions, to never complain or express what they have every right to. If I transitioned, I wouldn't expect any stand-by-your-man business from my partner - I would appreciate her being there and loving me and staying with me, but not if she felt like it compromised who she is or if she couldn't feel herself attracted to me as a man.

** edited to add: there was a time when I found myself so attracted to so many transguys I met that I thought I wasn't a lesbian. It was only after breaking down my own gender experience (feeling bigendered) and examining carefully the reality of my attractions that I was able to identify as a lesbian. I have been very enamoured of transmen from time to time, and the guy part of me so yearns to experience what the girl part of me won't let him - and so I tend to vicariously enjoy and identify with transguys. I sort of had to take my glasses off and *play the tape to the end* to realize that one day I'd end up back in the same place I left - closeted, with secrets, isolated from my community, isolated from my own truth. My partner has expressed to me that in the past she assumed she would one day transition - but that she changed her mind at some point. Sometimes I ask her about that, but I don't get clear answers back. She said once that she decided one day she'd rather be a "strong woman" than a man, that much of her feeling had more to do with falling in love with straight women in the past and wishing she could be what they wanted. But I do keep it in the back of my head that transition may be part of the future I have with her - the future is uncharted - but we both know as much as we can about where each of us is regarding the subject.