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I think she gets butches just fine ;)
"Straight men (my friends included) can and have been friendly to my lovers, but they're often uncomfortable when they're butches. Part of their discomfort is that butches are inherently threatening to most men. Men sense that a butch's masculinity is more appealing to me than theirs, and if she's packin' heat (wielding a dildo), which you know they imagine she is, well, there you have it. My girlfriend Red is a better man than most men. At my cousin's wedding a few weeks back in upstate New York, Red and I were (surprise, surprise) the only lesbians. We were seated at a table with all my cousin's friends—married yuppies. The husbands were totally fascinated by Red. One in particular wanted to know where she got her hair cut, and he admired her flattop repeatedly, saying he wished his looked so good. This experience at the wedding has actually been happening a lot lately, and other butches I know report similar situations. I'm still mystified when straight men seem drawn to Red, but I have a few theories. In some cases, I think that men feel they can have a safe gay interaction with her; they can flirt and be playful (and even talk interior decorating) as if she were another guy because they know she's really a woman. Sometimes men actually identify with her as one of the guys, automatically admitting her into that fraternal order. But when they admire her suit, her wingtips, her hair, they seem to be learning from her what it's like to be a good man. She embodies a study of ideal masculinity, which is all in the details." |
So butch only comes in one flavor and if it's not the right flavor it has an ick factor?
That's how the last couple of posts felt to me... Just because the term doesn't resound with you, doesn't make it less than or geared twards hetros... This piece resounded with me... I got what she was saying... I like butch girls..(Ok, I like butch in just about any flavor, but have a weakness for a big ol butch who is a girl) I happened to be partnered with one... Nothing shocking, nothing cutting edge.. Just a big old hard working, hard fucking, gets called sir, taking up space butch who is also a girl... |
she doesn't "get me" fine at all = different strokes ( Did I not say that?)
even at my youngest (around four) that word was very off-putting and insulting (to me) and I know for certain I am not alone in those thoughts. diversity don't we all get to be who we are? cant we all say what is true (for ourselves) without someone taking offence? |
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Dude if you won't want to be called "girl" then fine, but she wasn't talking TO straight people and was partnered to a butch at the time and words like "ick" and "sting" are pretty loaded terms when there are plenty of butches who are fine with the term girl (some are submissives and some are not).
I think people need to read the entire article before leaping to conclusions about what the author does or doesn't know. http://www.villagevoice.com/1999-10-...masculinity/2/ |
It's my opinion, I own it whether or not you agree or disagree is your opinion and I respect differences. Yes, when she lectures at universities I assume that the majority of the audience are heterosexuals because statistics don't lie. I don't know her personally, but I have met her once briefly. She seems like an okay person. However, I don't think anyone is the authority on any subject regardless of who they think they are. We are all people experiencing our own lives and living our own biases because we are subjective. My partner is one who identifies as female butch and I'm very okay with that. I accept how everyone identifies - who am I to judge. However, I can see how her statements could be interpreted as misogynistic depending upon where you are standing on the spectrum of gender identity. My butch is my boy. I'm sure that Tristan's butch at that time was quite alright with the way she represented her at the time. I'm hoping and quite sure she wasn't speaking of all butches. and yes, I will not retract my statement that heteros probably find her quite intriguing. personally, she bores me and I don't read her stuff or pay for her lectures. She just isn't that interesting to me, but that's my perogative. I'm sure I did not spell that word correctly. hahaha!
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I am sure a lot of people see me as a butch "girl". I, personally, do not. I have never liked being called a girl or liked it when someone says "you go girl" or "girrrrrl, you should have seen....", but that is just me. I am not a boy (depending on who calls me that..:winky:) or a girl, a man or a woman. I am butch, I am A butch....I am what I consider the gray area....or the best of both worlds. :winky:
I don't like being referred to as someone's "girlfriend" in a relationship sense, but if that is how they want to term it, fine. To be really honest, I feel like I have to settle for whatever makes everyone else comfortable, and it is getting tiring....anywho..... I get what Tristan was saying in the article, I really do. I just had to substitute the word "girl" with "butch", and then I was quite happy. :) btw, this is all coming from my ME space, and I am by no means trying to say anyone else should feel this way or that the word "girl" is icky or gross...it's just not for me. |
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Let's not be critical. Let's celebrate that someone took the time to say something (anything) about butches. If it doesn't exactly describe you, well....something else probably does. |
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The piece doesn't feel all that outdated to me. *shrug*
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What have I written that leads you to believe I am an oppressor of women or non feminist butch? signed the un-complex? I think fucking not :] |
I don't know, but someone who id's as femme writing an article about butch masculinity doesn't seem very informative or insightful to me. However, attending a conference called 'butch voices' or something like that where butches speak to their identity and experiences is definitely more insightful coming form the 'first' person perspective. Nothing against Tristan or Red or whomever.. again, just my opinion. The article is dated, it's one person's experience with a butch and it's her perception of that person at the time. I thought it was boring the first time I read it. I'm more interested in hearing butches speak and share their own personal experiences with masculinity and gender fluidity. If I want to know or bond with femmes, I will go to a femme conference. It's my opinion that you have to be living it to be an authority or sell yourself as an authority. I thought the article was hot and belonged in lesbian erotica rather than an article about masculinity in the Voice. I'm just glad that as a community we have evolved since then.
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I didn't see her as trying to sell herself as an authority on masculinity in the article. I don't see the article as revolutionary but it's not boring to me either.
We definitely have a very different opinion on what progress has been made. No comment from me on butch conferences. |
i'm grateful for all of the discussion here...it has all been really thought-provoking.
i love butches. i love reading other femmes' reflections on what they love about butches...as much as i love reading different butches write about what they love about femmes. i'm personally hyperconscious of how i talk about butch identity, because it isn't my identity, and because, like femme identity, it is complex and multifaceted...and different people embody/experience/express it differently. i know many people who would hate to be called "girl"...hell, i am not butch and there are only very specific instances where i am okay with being called "girl." outside of those instances it makes me feel insulted and infantilized. i know my partner would find it really triggering and upsetting for people to call him "girl." at the same time...i respect that others feel differently. hell...that is one of the things i love most about butch identity...that y'all express it in so many different and amazing and hot ways. |
let me try to put it another way
the term girl for many butches,tgs and transmen ( somewhat like me growing up) (not that I am speaking for all of them or everyone please note all the disclaimers) can and does lead to really fucked up and dysphoric feelings. You dont as a kid feel "right", ever. You want to feel "right" but dont know how. So you grow up and look masculine, get secure in yourself because your face is screaming hi I'm a deisel dyke everyday 24/7. Some take it to the next level of comfort to feel "right" aligned etc and transition. Some dont. Its really all about comfort and the details. (To me) |
dude, your description mirrors what i've heard from a lot of masculine id'ed folks in my life...that's why i'm really careful how i use gendered language.
i def agree june that feminine doesn't own beauty! at the same time many masculine id'ed folks in my life have balked when i told them they were beautiful because they are used to "beautiful" being a gendered word (to me it is not). i also change the language when i speak it sometimes because i don't want to trigger or offend people. |
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< desd, who loves the spice girls |
I have known butches who ID as butch but would do a double take if their girlfriend referred to them as "my butch" or frequently referred to them as butch at all. A lot of folks who are butch ID'd do not use the word a ton. I know of two who have complained when others have overused it referring to them. The others may have been trying to impose gender expectations on these people or were overly foregrounding gender.
Just adding that point. |
soo many opinions .. and all valid to ones own perspective. u can reslove it by
1. wearing a tshirt w. ur own logo and ur own ID 2. get ur own personal ID tattoo'd on ur forehead 3. or don't get mad at ppl who ID diff than u would << now theres a thought ~ 4. u can fight the world and stress urself out <<not good causes wrinkles ~ 5. just let it be known . that u r .. OH ~~ that nice person we just met ~~ ~ocean |
I remember at age fifteen being offended at being called, "girl" after finding out the definition was, "A young, immature female". I certainly did not feel that described me at all as I was a very mature, responsible and politically astute young woman. Now that I am fifty, it REALLY annoys me when I go to a restaurant with my nineteen year old daughter and the twenty year old server asks, "What can I get you girls to eat??" Really??? Oh and fuggedaboutit if she calls me, "Honey" LOL.
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On another thread I said;
“To the jackass that spent 15 minutes staring at me yesterday, your thoughts were loud and clear; "Is that a guy or a girl?" I have an answer for you...... Fuck off” In greater Chicagoland, my gender identity to the general outside world seems to be directly linked to the length of my hair regardless of my choice of clothing. I wasn’t really kidding about that. I just spent a week in South Carolina. There was no deviation; I was addressed as Ma’am 100% of the time. There is it a sign of respect and I accept it as such. My own fur bristled more at the word “Pal” (Sorry, I know you didn’t mean to offend in using it) than it did at “girl” but then again I don’t like being called dude, bro, or buddy either by people who don’t know me. At work my team is well aware of who we (my partner and I) are. I am also referred to on occasion as “girl” “hoe” and “bitch” as local colloquialism. I find no offense in it as it is intended to include me in the group rather than belittle or offend. They are all straight and often ask the most interesting (?) questions. It’s ok by me as I know they feel safe enough to ask me “stupid” questions without fear of being dressed down for doing so. For me, girl is just another word among many. We can choose to claim it as we claim dyke, pussy, c@#t (sorry guys, that word is the ultimo ick factor for me) or bitch. Or reject it as we do others along the way. I'd be interested in knowing why some "claim" a word and reverse its power while other words do not seem to make that list. |
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The exerpt looks familiar, and I'm thinking I might have read it in an introduction to an anthology, a LONG time ago. Is this the case? I have a couple of different thoughts about this -- being a published writer of erotic fiction myself, sometimes you have to tweak your words to appeal to your audience. I'm not sure that's what Tristan is doing here, but that's the vibe I got. Second, everyone has a journey, and I'll admit my own journey of involvement with people who have identified as butch and /or trans has come a LONG way, so words I may have used in the past I wouldn't use today, and views I may have had in the past don't exist today. Lastly, I know several butches who refer to themselves as "butch girl", so while those two words together may not resonate with everyone, it *is* a label that exists. That's just my six cents.... |
I'm running late so can't read the rest of the thread, but I did just read Post #14 where you explain it's a quote from 1999. Will read (and post) more later!
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It isn't about deeply seeded gender identity or whether someone ids as submissive etc. It's just real people having real conversations and the ebb and flow of language. I don't see how anyone can not read the essay by Tristan Taormino and not see that she is quite familiar with butches and that it was a butch positive piece. Isn't it all about context and intent? |
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I'm really turned on by butch lesbians. That very masculine energy whether it overt or androgynous. I especially love a faggie little butch boi. We all have different things that make our panties wet and things we find politically correct. |
Interesting conversation...
I didn't get twitchy when I read "girl", simply because I read it as a creative piece coming from her own "me" space. She likes butch girls. Others like butch bois. Others like *fill in the blank.* The word girl used to be insulting to me....back in the 80s and 90s when I was younger and working hard to stand up for myself, be independent, and be respected. Now that I'm a crone of 50 (and, yes, that's a word I like for myself :) ), I am not offended by "girl" unless there's a derogatory or sarcastic tone included. I work out 3 times a week with a group of 60, 70 and 80 year old women....who all call themselves girls. I like it. In that context, it's embracing the youthful spirit and energy they feel....and I give a wave and a "see ya later girls...have a great day!" as I leave, just like they all do. Since moving to South Florida, I've felt less "isms" than anywhere I've ever lived. It feels accepting....like whoever you are and whatever you do is all good. Snack and I sat at the beach one day, talking about this very thing as people of all ages, sizes, colors, etc. walked by. We were spotting Family...and loving that no one appeared to give a single rat's ass about what anyone else was doing. We were all too busy enjoying ourselves. Living here...I've also been called "girl" or "lady" or "ma'am" more than I ever have in my life either, but there's no edge....it's just how people greet and talk here. I'm good with it. For me, context and tone counts for more than the word used (with a few exceptions). |
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I hate when the whole, "use this exact wording because otherwise we will pound the fuck out of you because you have insulted .000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the population of ______ identity, causes everyone to miss the beautiful/power/enlightening/humorous/etc., message, the person was trying to share. |
Maybe it's different for me because I'm from over the pond, but I didn't see her use of 'girl' in a negative sense at all. I've been getting called Sir now since I was 18 years old, when I finally got the courage to come out and I went from having hair down to my arse to a short back and sides, it doesn't offend me when I get called ma'am or miss or lady, I do get taken aback when it happens now, more because I'm just not used to being referred to in that manner. I ID as a GenderQueer, Masculine ID'd, Butch, Dyke, which I have to say, here in the UK, fuck, I even have to explain it frequently to my own family, let alone complete strangers walking up to me in the street who see a 6' tall dude, in mens clothes, with short hair, broad shoulders and a deep voice.
I think if we let ourselves be offended by everything out there today, we might as well just shut ourselves indoors, lock the door and throw away the key, then retreat into our own personally built forts in the living room... People are people, they make mistakes, the good ones are those who own up to it and apologise, for instance, today I was walking along the beach and had a foodbag in my pocket to collect shells and stones so that I would have less sand in my pockets by the time I got back to the car, a large, loving black lab came bounding up to me, grinning, tail wagging, expecting a treat from the bag I'd just returned to my pocket, his owners were not far behind me, the gentleman said "Don't be greedy, that fellow doesn't have any food for you!" then as he drew closer and saw my face he stopped and stuttered, "Oh dear, it's a lady, I am so sorry, I cannot apologise enough." and my reaction was to grin. It was no big deal, it is never a big deal for me, but again, as I said at the beginning, maybe it's a cultural thing from being over here ... |
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NO, I mean, my assigning a gender to panties indicates a projection of my undergarment preference on others who may share my gender id but choose for their own valid personal reasons to wear boxers WAIT, why am I assuming boxers are the opposite of panties?? What is the deal with my undergarment binary??? |
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I snipped a bit out of what you said here, so forgive me. I dont even know who you are writing to but will jump off of this to be clearer about who I am and where I am coming from. I have absoultely no problem with people who ID differently than me. If I came across that way to anyone , I apologize. I tried to carefully describe how a few words feel to me. period. For most of my life I have had close friends who I would describe as tweeners (<= in a non insulting way and have had many conversations about butch-femme stuff with them ) I love them ,they are my friends. All of them very much supported me as a baby butch when I needed it the most. I was actually refered to a butch-femme site by a bisexual I had a quite enjoyable tyrst with. (who I met on a yahoo dating thing) There was no future for us in the long term because she really desired femminine women and manly men. She knew it would be sick and wrong (lol and what a relief) to try to change me so she steered me to a place to be appreciated. That was brutally honest and I know hard for her because she liked and enjoyed me a lot but..... I warned her , I really did. Yet she was attracted to ME (but not in the perfect way ) and so it went wilty after a few months. I can not tell you how many times my life that I have dated women who have tried to soften me up, change my walk, hair and try to convince me to dress differently ( to be more OK and loved by them) I was called sir even with long hair, way back in the day. This is what (some) butches go through in life and it does become a war just to be ourselves and secure in who we are , exactly as we are. If your experiences are different from mine ,then jolly good for you ( seriously) We dont have the worry or headache of coming out constantly like femmes do , which I feel quite grateful for. When we do go out to face the world sometimes it is not exactly a picnic either. We confuse people , which is fun somedays and somedays not. My personal "resolve" is to not change who I am for anyone. ever. wrinkles show a life well lived (or character I've always heard) I have many. This chip on my shoulder, isnt really a chip it's called survival. I'm sure I'm not alone in having one and I love that it has kept me safe. |
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~~ dude ~~ not writing to anyone .. just saying :) .. thought i'd add a bit of humor ~
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I briefly dated a fifty-something male-ID'd butch -- not a member of this or the other site -- who, if say a waitress addressed us as "ladies," would have a sullen half an hour or so. I can't say it ruined too many dates, but even so. . . . . Looking back on it, I am not sure I would go out with someone now who was so easily bruised by a social reality they were sure to run up against with some frequency.
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I liked the piece. My partner is not a girl but he is a butch. I would not call him girl but he was not offended by the piece. I liked the juxtaposition of girl and butch in the piece. It highlighted the usual connotation of the word by expressing what many would say girls should not be. I understand that the word might not be acceptable to some people. Some butches don't want to be called he. I would have a problem if I wrote a piece about my partner and used he instead of girl just like she did and then was told I was being offensive, heteronormative or dated.
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