I do not want people to assume
 

LOL my first legal name is Cynthia yet when I went to get my 1st drivers license they put male on it. Had that corrected moved to NM and exchanged TN license for NM they put male on it just left it that way until I moved to Utah I believe.

Kinda the way I feel doesn't bother me either way.

I'd kinda like to see how the partners of (whether femme or however one IDs) someone being assumed male feels about it and how do they react. Or is that for another thread/zone?

I only get funny looks when I enter the ladies room, and then, it's only public restrooms. At school, they know me, so they understand.

Well when you get into the real world to work and such it will continue to happen believe me lol.

There's a thread for that!:phonegab:


"http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1528][/URL]

Just a point of semantics not all male-ID'd butches identify as trans (gender/sexual), and yet they may still feel more male than female.

The ID: genderqueer is a good example, and there are many others.

There are as many variations as there are individuals, and along with that, I expect a spectrum of feelings/beliefs/preferences as regards how they are perceived and addressed by the public, by the queer community, by their families, and their co-workers, and their peers, and their partners -- one butch might, in fact, have a variety of different preferences when it comes to IF they are perceived as a man or not, even some female-ID'd butches.

I feel as though your question is rooted in the binary, and that may be *your* experience and *your* peers' experience of butch identity...but I don't think "a butch does not want to be seen as a man" is a truism that applies to all non-trans butches.

The official name for those shirts is A Shirt. I always cringe when I hear them being called the more common name, and I do wish people would stop using it, but most people will have NO idea what you're talking about when you say "A Shirt".

Thanks, Sparkle, for your post.

I didn't mean to imply that all male-ID'd butches are trans. I'm not new to the b-f world or the GLBT world, etc. I've dated all kinds of butches and also dated transguys at many different levels of transitioning, including one with top and bottom surgery—not that those experiences mean I am not ignorant of the things you are explaining to me.

And no, I'm so not rooted in the binary.

Clearly my post was disastrously unclear, and did not accomplish what I was hoping it would, but you responded so thoughtfully, and I appreciate it.

How I feel as a partner....
When my partner reacts to the assumptions with easy and even humor I relax. In general I feel protective of my sweeties feelings and wish them to be seen how they feel. I am not one that is good at in the moment corrections of other peoples behavior. I will give a touch that says "I know who you are" in the moment.

Beyond being assumed male by strangers or in passing... I support how the person wants to handle it.

Do you talk do your butch teammates? Seems you may need some sense of community. Make some friends and find out who you are and where you fit! We are great people here and you will learn bunches, but real life community connections are equality important.

Good luck.

I completely agree with both Corkey and Spritzer. Being partnered with a TG butch, it is about understanding who they are, how they feel about who they are, and how they wish others would see them. As Corkey pointed out, there are several TG butches who chose not to "transition" or become FTM. Yes, there is a difference between a TG butch and an FTM. My partner is TG. He is a Male Butch, or as he calls himself "a butch guy". Does he care if someone calls him Sir? No. Does he care if someone calls him ma'am, no. Because being gender queer, you cannot expect society to understand the personal struggles you go through with your own identity as TG.

As Spritzer pointed out, at the end of the day, I know who my partner is, and I support him in every way possible. He knows and appreciates my love for him, and that is all that matters. What people perceive of him, me, or our BF dance is not what matters.

Not to highjack....

I am grateful that Stoney is so gracious, patient and kind about how people experience who Stoney is. This is not easy nor is it Stoney's job to be so patient with folks. People don't get it quickly when gender presentation isn't binary. I have experienced that my friends want to be respectful and use the right "pronoun" and even understand. And the patience gives them space to formulate their questions. I find questions can lead to understanding.

Specifically related to Stoney... my experience of hym is that hy values people getting to know hym. The pronoun matters not. Hy lets people get to know hym and expresses (looks, says, dresses, etc...) as hymself with out reservation.

Now of course I use hy when referencing Stoney on the planet but that is what we've talked about.

my partner identifies as butch and male (he is trans). he lived as a butch woman for a long time before transitioning. now he doesn't pass and it is a huge problem for him that he is constantly misgendered - it's really upsetting to him.

i'm a pretty protective person and i have a lot of friends who are trans*, genderqueer, or who otherwise don't fit gender norms. i tend to be pretty assertive about other people respecting the ids and pronoun choices of all the people in my life (and sometimes that means having to be patient and explain or educate, which i don't like having to do but i will). that means if someone i am with doesn't id as male and is perceived as male, i would politely try to correct or remind the other person that they are or support the person i am with doing that, if they are comfortable addressing it. same with if the person i am with is perceived as female and doesn't id that way, or ids as something else altogether. i respect the choices of the person i am with too...i know it's not my "job" to swoop in and save anyone - but i also know that for a lot of my friends it's helpful to have allies who will step in and correct people or say that's not okay, so they don't always have to be the ones doing it.

i'm the same way with my partner. i will correct people and confront them if they try to start any shit about it, although i try to respect that he worries about my safety and doesn't want to put me in a situation where that might lead to things being unsafe.

What is always interesting to me when I am called "sir," which I don't mind at all, btw, is when the person goes to correct him- or herself, they immediately say, "Oh, it was the haircut." I just nod and grin and assure them, "It's ok." But I always think...you had time to study my hair and assume I am male (and that's cool), but what then tipped you off I wasn't? Maybe I should start asking.

Hmmmm.

My partner is a she, is identified as a she and is referred to as a she. But, really, it's not about me and what i feel. It's about how my partner feels.

If someone mistakenly called her he (which i've never seen happen) she would be the one to straighten them out. And rather quickly i would think.

If for some reason she couldn't speak, i would be happy to straighten them out. I wouldn't have a problem doing that either. :readfineprint:

I just had an incident tonight which kind of made me chuckle, since we are talking about this today. I went into a convenience store today to use the ATM machine and buy a couple of sodas. As I was walking in the door there was a man ahead of me, he looked back, I figured to make sure I had the door. Then he looked back a couple more times and just stared and stared. I think he was trying to figure out which box to put me in, lol.

I agree. It's a pride thing. I do not want to be seen with a man, but as a femme lesbian with a butch female partner and I will correct if my partner doesn't. Lol :-D

I was sleeping but woke with this post in the forefront of my mind and wanted to elaborate on it a little bit.

I absolutely appreciate that my Spritz sees it as not my "job to be patient with folks." In some ways I totally agree and in other ways, I like to think that I do have a role in being patient and educating others with something they don't understand or are struggling with to accept. I'm a rather complex individual, ya know, and even knowing me personally requires one to understand me wholly.

I can be a rather sarcastic person but, for the most part, it's in play and with those that already know me. Those that can appreciate my sense of humor. Or at least tolerate it. If someone on the street looks at me with a questioning look/stare I don't take offense, I just smile to ease the tension and confussion. If it persists I greet them with hello and go about my business. This is the person they need to see and appreciate... Me, the kind and respectful individual that acknowledges them for being an active member of my day.

I believe that everyone is brought into our day for a reason. I also believe that prior to coming to this Earth plane it was agreed upon that I and you, and you and you (generalized) would have our interaction and it would go in such n' such a way. Lessons will be learned. You, the individual, will be an asshat and I will deal with it... because without this interaction how am to know and appreciate a more loving and respectful interaction if I don't know the opposite. (Guess this is all for another thread.... sorry... rambling)

Anyway, should someone question or ask about who I am and why I am and what, and where, and when and and and... I answer their questions... with compassion. And if I walk another block and it happens again... I answer again and again and again. It truly doesn't bother me for people to question and ask... and nine times out of ten they walk away satisfied with the answers and a smile on their face as I say to them - have a nice day!

It's really just that simple...

Arcstriker told me about this thread but was afraid to post to it after our last flap...

That said, and I can speak for my husband...he doesn't WANT to pass as male, it just happens. He cannot help who he is anymore than I can help who I am. In the end, we both just want to be judged by our character.

I love that he passes as male, because that is what turns me on...but make no mistake about this...I KNOW exactly who he is and how he was born, and that just makes him sexier to me.

I know what I am I am a woman a strong Butch woman yes I get the stares at time and get called sir and don't get me started on the bathroom issues lol I scare little old ladies... My daughter however does not find it funny she has been known to stamp her little foot and say "that's my MAMA" and the guys I work with get very upset when we are in a stop or dealing with a suspect and they call me sir.. they are protective :fastdraq:

I do not consider myself male at all. I am called Sir often in stores etc. funny but not funny story. I was in Montreal at a hospital as my brother was dying. Went to the washroom, yes, the ladies room :) i startled an elderly lady who was in there. I finish my business, exit washroom to be grabbed by a cop. He speaks french, I speak english. It finally becomes clear to me that he is informing me he is arresting me for being in the ladies washroom. I'm thinking this is a bad fuckin' joke. I guess I was under a little stress because I snapped. I told him he was a f??? Idiot and promptly pulled my shirt off to expose proof that I was a woman. Asshats!

Thank you, that was truly beautiful to read.

There are a lot of great posts, awesome conversation!

Like Parker said, one of the main reasons many butch women do want to be seen as women is because when we are not, our type of woman is invisible. There are many ways to be woman and we would like that to be seen. You can't control how someone is going to perceive you and that's ok, but we stretch the definition of what woman is and can be. Many of us also do want to be treated as women because that is what we are.

I don't really have the issue of passing as male and I am happy about that. If people do think I am, it is usually just a temporary mistake. If someone calls me sir at the grocery store or something I don't tend to correct them, I just let it slide.

Sometimes kids will ask me if I am a boy or girl (they tend to use that rather than man or woman). I will smile and say girl. You see them thinking and that makes me smile. They don't really care either way, they are just curious. If they do call me he and we are friends, I don't correct them. They find their own way just fine.

I do agree with Kelt that I would prefer our society wasn't so rigidly gendered. Why does it matter if a store clerk says ma'am or sir? Why do we have to have an F or M on our driver's license? Why do people get so extremely uncomfortable if they can't tell right away if someone is female or male?

No I do not wish to be thought of as a man,i'm just being me and wearing clothes that I feel best in.Yes i'm a masculine butch woman that often gets called sir a lot,no it dosent bother me because often people take a second look then I get sorry mam with a red face,or they sort of stutter with confuson.Going to the bathroom is a trick cause I often get the look like i'm in the wrong place..I just go on a take care of buisness,wash my hands then out the door I go.
Now haveing said this I will say in certain circles if I had said this out loud or on the site I would have been blasted then called out for it.Admitting you were a butch woman and not wanting to be seen as a male wouold have been sacriligouos(sp?.sorry)

I don't necessarily like being invisible as a queer either.

Thing is, when it comes to pride, I have so much pride in my butch and the way in which Hy carries Hymself/responds regardless of how people perceive Hym that that kind of outweighs the fact that by referring to Hym using masculine pronouns, they are somehow erasing my identity.

Make sense?

Words

Thank you!
 

Thank you!!!

Femme is not defined by who I am fucking, it's my Gender:)!

I totally get your point, and totally respect it! We are all different here with totally different perspectives, and that is what I love about this place.

Justin and I both totally label ourselves as 100% lesbian women, so the accidental "male" label doesn't sit well with us. We are women, and we are proud, and they will be corrected either by Justin or I, whichever is convenient. It has nothing to do with me not wanting to be "invisible", or having an erased identity. It is a pride thing. I am proud to be a femme lesbian on my female identified butches arm, and you will see me as one because it is who I am. You will see her as a butch because that is what she is and you will see us as a couple because we are fucking beautiful! <3

Hugs.

As someone who has gone through the mill for a lifetime before transitioning, I spent a lot of my childhood wanting people to assume I was male when I looked very feminine. Now I look male and ive come through most of the "stuff" I can now concentrate more on living the kind of life where others views on my gender arent relevant

honestly
 

I am not aware of a desire to be seen as a man. And I definately do not have a desire to be seen as a woman. I dont mind it but Im not burnin up to present an identity. I feel better being called "sir" than "mam". I can truthfully say mam and lady make me cringe like Ive been hit. Im being honest.

I like being seen as butch. I do not like the breasts and yet there is a part of me that wants them there doin what they do which is to say Im this person in this body and Im okay. I do like being seen as who I am for me and for the young butches coming up. Ive said it before..tho.....we are skeletons and spirit...that is how we are walking around. The other stuff is stuff

Good morning
 

I don't like being called ma'am or lady either. My partner calls me Sir. I would prefer she would be the only one that does.