celebrating being a queer indigenous poor disabled femme does not mean i am saying i am better than or i am defining myself in opposition to.

but it is inherently an act of resistance because i live in a society where being white, upper class, straight, able-bodied, and conforming to heteronormative gender roles is what is celebrated and what i am measured against as a human being and told i should want to live up to.

so it might get tiring to hear that i think that femmes who don't conform to those ideals are fucking amazing. but i'm going to keep saying it because the reality is - we are constantly told we are unlovable and less than and not worthy. there are enough people in the world who celebrate june cleaver. somebody needs to celebrate us.

I don't disagree with any of that. I am really making a different point, one I am not even that invested in making right now.

I, too, am loving this conversation....loving that femmes of all kinds of perspectives are coming in here and speaking from their hearts and minds. Beautiful. :rrose:

I also love that there's enough room for all of us. I, personally, can't relate to the issues and feelings that femmes of color have shared because I haven't walked in those shoes, but I can relate to hearing over and over the "not good enough" message though - in my case because I was overweight, extremely poor, and dressing out of the Goodwill box in Southern California in the 70s....while all the other girls were rocking their Farrah Fawcett hairdos and getting a brand-new Camaro from Daddy on their 16th birthday.

I so hear you dee about the escapism of those shows. I used to go to a friend's house and watch The Brady Bunch like it was some kind of divine message. My fantasy was to have a mother that really was one, a father that was present (for a start), dinner on the table, and siblings that I didn't have to barricade myself in the bathroom from to escape serious injury.

My version of motherhood grew, not out of a good example, but a long list of "remember when you are older to never be like this" mental notes. In large part, the adult I am was shaped by the damage I received. No, I'm not saying that I'm "walking wounded"....but I spent many years learning to flip everything I had learned on its head to arrive at the right place for me.

So....long way around, sorry...the woman I have become, the femme I have become...is a distillation of my experiences, my thoughts, my heart, my hurts, and my emotional scars. I'm not doing it this way because anyone told me I should. I'm doing it this way because this is who I am....at the core.

And I love that we have as many versions of femme on this site as we have femmes. For me, that's a wonderful thing.

Yes!
 

Thank you for stating that so well!! Celebrate Femme, please do not compare us some fantasy made up by men of what Femme is.


Celebrate us! All of us!

i can definitely relate to the escapism in childhood. i absolutely hated being - well - everything that i am when i was a kid. i wanted to grow up and be june cleaver. i went to a catholic school where about 98% of the student population was white and upper class and the parents lived in the rich section of town and a lot of the moms were like june cleaver. i used to fantasize about having a totally different life. i was ashamed of my family and the house we lived in. i was ashamed that my mom worked a lot and didn't wear heels or makeup and that most of my family members were/are fat, dark skinned, poor, and disabled.

in some ways, fantasizing helped me escape and was a coping mechanism for dealing with trauma and poverty. in other ways, it was a really negative thing because being ashamed of who i was and who my family was led to a lot of internalized oppression and self-loathing (and an eating disorder that wrecked my body, among other things). and eventually i grew up and i realized that even if i really wanted that ideal, it would be impossible for me to achieve. i realized that that ideal was fed to me for really specific (and oppressive) reasons.

now i am proud of the things i used to be ashamed of. and i am ashamed that when i was a kid i used to wish my mom was june cleaver. because my mom was a strong, brilliant, amazing woman. she was far from perfect and i have hella family issues and childhood trauma and shit. but now i am sad that i felt that way as a kid and i wish i had realized and valued myself and the women in my family and the community that i come from sooner.

June Cleaver is a symbol of approved feminine expression within the dominant culture of mid-20th century North America. I think she was also a conduit for consumerism, as she was all about using household products that represented progress at that time, and technological advancement. Wrapped in all that responsibility, though, she has her ways of being independent, of seeing through bullshit, of being the voice of reason in her family.

I met Barbara Billingsley on a cruise when I was an advertising copywriter in L.A. a long time ago (the cruise line was my client). She hugged me as soon as we were introduced. I think she was so used to being hugged by women, she just went there automatically. She assumes she is beloved. And I think she is beloved, and her authority is admired by women because they intuit how she, her character, balances out the dehumanizing sexism of the time.

I mean, listen to that voice. When you hear her in person, it's even more gravelly and deep and oddly melodic.

Thoughts
 

My mother and I have a cultural clash, it's of EPIC proportions, she's a very conservative catholic latina woman, ruler of her roost to the point of being cruel. We didn't watch a lot of TV my mother monitored the shit out of that, I had to "sneak" watching it. I was well into my teens when I learned about the Cleavers and other shows like that.

My mother who was an immigrant and hid a lot during our childhood (we were undocumented till I was in 5th grade) spent more time policing and making sure her kids had the values (her words) that were part of our culture. It was maddening to me as a child to understand why this woman was so fucking stuck on stuff that seemed so Mexican.

We were so fucking Mexican I would sometimes be ashamed of my lunches because they were different, I hadn't experienced this when I was younger because my parents sent me to school in a predominantly Latino Catholic school so I was surrounded by kids going through similar family structures.

I didn't want my Ma to be like a TV mom, but I did want her to be not so Mexican, she would be so hurt when I would say this, it was a struggle for us both being she was from Mexico and I was too but I was being raised as a Chicana would.

I sometimes hug my mom tightly and apologize for being so harsh with my words as a teen age punk, and I understand now that our battles were cultural, about unspoken abuse in immigrant families, educational. I know and hear stuff that my mother has endured, as a woman, as a Mexican and I am like fuck, what a brat I was and at the same time wish I could of helped her find help sooner to help her cope with so much that it couldn't but bleed into our upbringing...

The women in my family are amazing, yet so so different than the women who were and are raised in an American society.

The Lady Snow encouraged me to post part of the femme paper I referred to. I can't find the Bibliography. This was something I read aloud, so I didn't worry about formatting, spelling and so on. So this is the whole thing. To do excerpts, I'd have to think. And I am opposed to thinking on Friday evenings. I thought I excerpted parts on the old site, but a search did not bring up the post. Oh well.

OH, this is from 2006. The articles I cite are even older. Things have changed. Heart pointed out that one of the keynote speakers at a later femmecon made a lot of these points -- that we cannot define femme in opposition to other feminine people, that there are real dangers to doing that. So the arguments here are dated.

I am not being falsely modest when I say that I do not encourage anyone to slog through it. Personally, I'd rather be watching "Gangnam Style" on youtube. But here it is. I will probably have to post twice to get it all in.

Second page. Hope it's all there. Had to paste paragraphs separately ---

the issue i have with this is that - people whose identities are not experienced as transgressive are visible and celebrated already. the rest of us aren't. the reason my identity is transgressive is because i am marginalized - not because i am going out of my way to "perform" femme as something transgressive. i didn't ask to live in a society where being a sex worker is transgressive, for example, but i do. and i do sex work out of economic necessity, not to be performative or ironic.

i don't know. i'm really really trying to understand, and i found what you shared to be extremely thought provoking, and for that i am grateful. but i am struggling to wrap my mind around it.

there are scary and heteronormative parts of my life. i like it when my butch opens doors for me. and i love to bake. but i bake with money i bought with food stamps and then go feed homeless people. or working class folks who come to the sliding scale acupuncture clinic where i work. or at potlucks. sort of far removed from the 1950s housewife baking scene. i covered my hair for years and dressed really conservatively...that's rather scary and heteronormative, i suppose. i embrace those parts of myself.

my issue isn't wanting to exclude people who have identities or values or things they enjoy that fall within the realm of heteronormativity. it's that - when we talk about holding people up as icons or ideals - i feel like we need to have some sort of analysis around the fact that the ideal of the 1950s housewife has been used to marginalize many women, especially working class, poor, and non-white women.

no one should be excluded. but whose voices and experiences are we choosing to center? i choose to center the voices and experiences of disabled folks, sex workers, people who are working class and poor, indigenous & poc, women and/or gender non-conforming folks, because there are so few spaces where our voices and experiences are centered. it sucks that some people feel that that means they are excluded because they don't fall within those categories - i deeply love all of the people in my life, regardless of how they identify. but many of the privileged folks in my life also have a lot of support and they can turn on the tv and see people like them and have role models that look like them and they don't have to worry about how they are going to get medical care or food or about being arrested because of working. the society i live in centers the voices and experiences of people who have privilege. so when i think about where i want my priorities to be, i prioritize and celebrate (and idolize) people in my life who are transgressive.

thank you so much for posting your paper. i'm still sorting through things and it's bringing up a lot for me (and making me think really deeply).

edited to add - i do definitely get the whole - if you aren't x then you aren't queer/femme enough issue. for me at least, especially when i went through a period of being celibate and abstaining from alcohol and dressing conservatively, i often felt awkward in queer community because i wasn't drinking or having sex or wearing provocative clothing, for example. and because i looked pretty heteronormative (as a muslim). i was lucky enough to be around queer folks (many of whom were also muslim, and who dressed differently and did all sorts of different things) where i eventually felt embraced regardless of what i wore or ate or drank or who i slept with (or didn't). and i was able to come to make decisions based on what i wanted to do versus how i was afraid people would perceive me or whether or not i would fit in. i think it's really problematic when we start saying that people HAVE to look or act a certain way to be femme. could someone be a housewife a la june cleaver and be femme? absolutely. do i think june cleaver is a femme icon? no. (at least, vehemently NOT for me.)

We may be talking at cross-purposes. I don't know. I think most of what you say is a given. We start from there. But we don't go on to assert an ID so unique that we lose our ability to recognize ourselves in others.

One of the interesting essays I read -- and I mentioned it -- was by a sex worker who did not claim femme until she read an article by a femme about her straight mother. Now her mother was NOT traditional. Sex positive, working class, tough. But the thing was that it was this person's ability to connect to the story of a STRAIGHT woman that helped her with her queer ID. And, of course, Nestle used her mother's experiences to help her stand up against the dykes who were criticizing her as a femme who liked to be fucked by butches. I don't want to separate myself from the examples and experiences of other feminine women.

gotta go. a pot luck awaits. how lesbian is that?

Thank you for posting that Martina....a lot of it resonated for me. Not coincidentally, the part about Sheiner's experience of becoming more comfortable with her femininity and her femme self and less troubled by issues of invisibility and passing, as she ages.

I am so there.

I feel like I'm rounding a corner in my life where I just am who I am. I'm comfortable with it. I'm not changing to suit anyone anymore. I don't care if I am invisible as a femme. I don't care if I'm femme enough, feminine enough, tall, short, skinny, fat enough. I just don't care.

I am me. And I am comfortable with me. I'm also comfortable with everyone else being who they are. It feels good.

You know, i'm not sure it is what she wanted to be honest. I couldn't imagine it would be, even back then. But, she says it is what she loved, keeping a house and home with no real life outside dad and us kids. *shrugs

i could totally see myself being content with what i bolded out from your post. For me and some others that is having a real life. Just like you love nursing, it's a passion for you i assume. For others they feel this same passion around the kids and the home, or just the home. Until now i've never afforded that lifestyle. i work two days a week at the clinic so i can rest! Keeping up with the Syr and the house is real work! i've always found it interesting that some women work to have a life outside the home, when i've always wanted to work solely at the home. i've always wanted time to enjoy my home, make it a real home and volunteer somewhere when i wanted to venture out.

When i was in banking there was a fellow officer sitting at the lunch table with me, an older lady than the rest of us. She spoke about how she lovingly laid her husbands clothes out for him everyday before she left for work. Not because he was incapable or demanding, but because she loved choosing his clothes. Everyone but me jumped her case about it. How demeaning and terrible of a thing that was they said. She was so embarrassed and ashamed. That always has bothered me, that they were so judgmental towards her.

Then again, i've always felt like an oddball.

I just want to say smart girls rock.


I have WAY more I wanna say but I'm too stupid right now.


I'll be back in the morning to drool over you smart girls again :-)

I don't identify with June Cleaver as a femme. If I had to pick a TV character to identify my femmeness it would be Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I also don't like it when people lament for the old days. I like to be in the present.

I grew up in a Leave It to Beaver household. Except June smoked cigarettes all day and drank coffee and sometimes seemed depressed. My Mom is a lady. That is the best word I can think of to describe her. There are many things about her that I strive to be as a mother and a woman.

My relationship dynamic is very much like yours Femmesational. I would not describe it as 50s or June Cleaver though. I also do not see it as heteronormative although it might appear to be. That's ok with me if someone sees it that way. So Julie you asked how do we talk about this without making people upset or having a history lesson? I think referencing a time in history that is problematic might be causing the problem. So how do we define it? I don't have a good answer except to say that it is what makes me feel safe and loved.

I agree with Martina about not separating ourselves from other women as femmes. One of the most wonderful, liberating aspects of being a femme to me is is that I stand with all women, butch, femme, straight or what have you. I did not feel that way before. Maybe it is because I know myself better now? I don't know. All I know is that I am so unbelievably grateful and blessed to have these kinds of conversations with women now.

While I think femmes intersect other female embodiments, I don't think we follow the same path. To say that a femme and a straight woman both shop at the same store, or share similar life experiences and are therefore more alike than they are different seems to be an over simplification.

I came out late. I am a vastly different person than I was when I was "straight." I don't like to pass because it is fundamentally not my truth. For me, it isn't a political statement or an invisibility issue, "passing" is a reminder of something I am not.

That would be an oversimplification, and I don't think that's what Payne meant if you are reacting to that.

I do think that there are straight women and feminine lesbians who are thoughtful about femininity and creative in their efforts to live as healthy powerful feminine beings. That doesn't mean that they are just like femmes.

The reason that the first femme conference was organized is that some femmes went to a conference on femininity and found that their experiences WERE different than many of those they saw represented.

I also think that seeing how we have changed since we came out is different than repudiating our former selves. Haven't you met lesbians who have done that? Everything about their lives as a straight woman was a compromise, a loss, inauthentic and lesser. And maybe for some women that is true. But for some there is a strong sense of continuity of self between their straight lives and their queer lives.

Truly the points I make in that paper, assuming you are responding to that, are not directly relevant to the discussion. And I don't think they are easy to argue. I think we'll just end up saying, it depends on the femme. We're all different.

McCarthy and the Hays Code.....
 

First I'll say I don't identify with June Cleaver, never have. I don't keep house, bake cookies (except for charity events), etc. I often jokingly refer to myself as a failure of a femme because while I love my makeup, shoes, fashion and glitter I'm not June Cleaver!

I choose to spend my time on academics and work and yay for me no one expects otherwise. (In fact everyone would probably think I'd lost my mind if I wasn't knee deep in books, research and obscure medical facts) I usually hire a housekeeper and I make a mean phone call for reservations or take out. Some days I wear pearls and I rock some 50s dresses, but I have no love for the 50s or the history behind why it produced the images it did.

In my experience there are two things to be mindful of about the images/movies/TV that came out of Hollywood in the 50s and 60s and even the 70s.

First McCarthy and the House Committee on Un-American Activities played a huge part in art and culture from that era. To deviate was to be investigated and that investigation could and did ruin a lot of lives. Conversely there are some incredible queers and allies who thumbed their noses at McCarthy and survived, but that wasn't the usual outcome.

Second from Hollywood directly was the HAYS code. Women could NOT be seen to deviate from "loving their man the right way" unless the production ended with their death or suicide. An excellent example was the movie Queen Christina with Greta Garbo. For the first 3/4 of the movie we see a strong gender bending portrayal of a character and then to make sure it got past the sensors you'll see an abrupt shift to the Queen falling in love with a man and throwing it all away for him.

June Cleaver and Leave It To Beaver fall smack into both of these lovely oppressive codes. (Referred to as the HAUC & HAYS codes in our queer studies department) For Leave It To Beaver to have the run it did June had to be the way she was, same with Mary Tyler Moore, etc. I Love Lucy had more leeway, but by the end of EVERY episode she "loved" her husband.

Both of these codes also dictated how characters of color and LGBT characters were portrayed, neither in a good way. Hollywood is littered with amazing acts of defiance from that era which are really only seen on close inspection. Numerous marriages were blatant covers to protect the sexuality of many actors, directors and artists.

What anyone does in their own house, bedroom etc. with the "50s ideal" is their own thing. I won't judge cause chances are I've done or do some things that will make someone go all kinds of sideways. BUT I will say I prefer that when people make the choice to idealize anything that they are educated and understand the reality behind the glamour.

Your mileage will probably vary and pardon the typos it's 1am. :blueheels:

I think it's time to visit the Housekeeping Monthly Good Wife's Guide from 1955: Printed May 13, 1955

The Good Wife's Guide

1. Have dinner ready. Plan ahead, even the night before, to have a delicious meal ready on time for his return. This is a way of letting him know that you have be thinking about him and are concerned about his needs. Most men are hungry when they get home and the prospect of a good meal is part of the warm welcome needed.
2. Prepare yourself. Take 15 minutes to rest so you'll be refreshed when he arrives. Touch up your make-up, put a ribbon in your hair and be fresh-looking. He has just been with a lot of work-weary people.
3. Be a little gay and a little more interesting for him. His boring day may need a lift and one of your duties is to provide it.
4. Clear away the clutter. Make one last trip through the main part of the house just before your husband arrives. Run a dustcloth over the tables.
5. During the cooler months of the year you should prepare and light a fire for him to unwind by. Your husband will feel he has reached a haven of rest and order, and it will give you a lift too. After all, catering to his comfort will provide you with immense personal satisfaction.
6. Minimize all noise. At the time of his arrival, eliminate all noise of the washer, dryer or vacuum. Encourage the children to be quiet.
7. Be happy to see him.
8. Greet him with a warm smile and show sincerity in your desire to please him.
9. Listen to him. You may have a dozen important things to tell him, but the moment of his arrival is not the time. Let him talk first - remember, his topics of conversation are more important than yours.
10. Don't greet him with complaints and problems.
11. Don't complain if he's late for dinner or even if he stays out all night. Count this as minor compared to what he might have gone through at work.
12. Make him comfortable. Have him lean back in a comfortable chair or lie him down in the bedroom. Have a cool or warm drink ready for him.
13. Arrange his pillow and offer to take off his shoes. Speak in a low, soothing and pleasant voice.
14. Don't ask him questions about his actions or question his judgment or integrity. Remember, he is the master of the house and as such will always exercise his will with fairness and truthfulness. You have no right to question him.
15. A good wife always knows her place.

Be a little gay.....
 

Jumping off from the Good Wife's Guide post
 

So, let me start by saying I have never taken a women's studies course and have zero academic background on this era....so thank you to Martina and to pinkgeek for bringing in some of that context. I appreciate it greatly.

Here's my gut reaction to that 1955 "be a stepford wife" guide....

I think men, in general, were scared. WWII saw women stepping out of their former roles in massive numbers. Women were working out of the home, and not just as teachers and nurses....we were welders and truck drivers and machinists and every other thing that had been previously perceived as "men only."

And we did it well.

Women provided immense labor towards keeping the war effort, and the nation, moving...and we did it by doing things that men (in general) thought we could not do. I imagine that scared the crap out of them, because suddenly we were showing (not just saying) that we could do everything that men could do, and that we were their equals.

I don't think it's too big of a jump to say that seeing women perform work that had been percieved as too hard, too dirty, too whatever for them, was no less frightening to men than seeing former slaves learn to read and write was to former slaveowners. The biggest backlash towards any group has always happened when they try to step out of "their place."

I think the 1950s was about backlash, and men (and many women, too) trying to stuff women back into the box they had jumped out of.

I absolutely adore images of women from this time.

http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/rosie-riveter-3.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...orporation.jpg
http://stylishthought.com/wp-content...he_riveter.jpg

JustJo
Absolutly
I've had the thought in my mind to do research on the rate of suicide among women during that transition time when they were put back into housewife role after being in the work force. I did a little work on that when I was in college (women's studies major here) but didn't come up with much, but that was "back in the day" when there wasn't much available in online research and my work was more in letter writing, phone calls, library books. I might revisit that.

Disclaimer...head still a little mushy but gonna give it a try......
 

I'm loving this thread and the honesty that is flowing through it. It's nice to see hard topics, addressed without rancor.


1: I think, society and this forum have come to that conclusion for a number of reasons. Most have already been address here but for me, it's as simple as....it's what society knew. How are people supposed to want something that is outside of their realm of normal? Which is why I thank god that there are members of society who step out of the pack and say NO!!

As for this forum....well, unfortunately I think because of MANY years of trying to claim space for people who are *different,* we've created many different types of thinking about what is right, not right, acceptable or nonacceptable for *us*

Also, I feel that because of the expectations we place on others like us, but NOT us, we've created a rift, even between each other. What I mean by that is some folks have strong feelings about what it means to be a woman and what SHOULD be expected from a woman, especially a gay/lesbian/put your word in please. Because of the fight they went through to be accepted for who they are, some may have gotten so far away from the original issue, they've allowed it to start again. Just in a different package. I have a hard time with getting those thoughts out on a good day, today it might be even harder for you to understand my meaning, if so...PLEASE ask, I'll try again.

On the flip side, some of us keep the narrow messages society has shoved down our throats, even as we try to navigate through our life in this gay woman/add your word, world. It's hard for some to seperate what has been taught to them thier entire life, just because they realize they are gay.

In that instance I think it's lack of experience? Lack of knowledge? or they just haven't opened thier mind to the many OTHER ways of navigating their world. Or, in that same instance it could just be plain ignorance, feeling like their new gay world should conform to their narrow minded views of how the world should work. Some have created a wierd....level system. You're only a real femme if.....you're only a real butch if.....and if you only do A....three times a year, you're on the bottom level of whatever id applys. Some are just plain stuck in thier superior than, mode and don't know it, or don't care enough to change it.

For me, I know i don't hold anyone of any gender up as a role model. I've had a wierd growing up and for some reason, the people in my sphere I may have admired for a reason or two but i can't say there has been one single person, real life or fantasy world that I have said.....um, i wanna be you. Or maybe I'm just stubborn and selfish and figured my way is the best way. So for me. I don't understand either side of the coin when it comes to people believing they can tell me what should happen in MY WORLD. I'm not like my Mother, I'm not like my Father, I'm not like you or you or you!! And, why the hell would I feel I have any right or it be any of my business to tell you or you or you....how YOU should be, or YOU should feel??? In my brain that make no sense. And it pisses me off when I see that happen.


I think I need to take a break and go get more coffee. I'm out :|

I have my answers to the other questions you posed Snow, so I'll be back. hehe


j

This thread is producing some incredible thought provoking stimuli for me. Many I may respond to as time passes, but which would now take more time and words than I have available. What I like best is Lady Snow's courage (which she generally seems to have in abundance) to just say out loud (write out loud?) what is so often argued about on other threads. That "femme" is queer.

Straight women are not "femme." I would go further to say (though I know this ideas truly lights some people's fire) that a person is "femme" only if she is attracted to butches. The terms grew up together and IN MY MIND are inextricable linked. There are lots of wonderful feminine appearing lesbians, attracted to other wonderful feminine appearing lesbians. But to me they are not "femmes". For me "femme" carries a political aspect to it that disassociates it, (but does not alienate it) from straight women or feminine lesbians. Straight women do not face negativity for being attracted to men. They may be hassled over a particular guy they are attracted to, but not the attraction to men in general. Feminine women may face all kinds of negativity for being attracted to other feminine women, but they do not challenge the norms of society in the ways that a femme butch coupling does.

Outsiders may see the pairing as hetero-normative, but the couple is, in fact, merely responding to their own attractions. Within the couple, they determine their own dynamics. Femme may be an auto mechanic and Butch may have the children. Femme may be the high powered attorney and Butch may be the stay-at-home partner, meeting Femme at the door when she returns from her hectic day in the courtroom with a flute of Champagne, wearing nothing but a jockstrap. (oops, slipped into my own personal fantasy with the jockstrap image, LOL.) But they still live (and love) the butch femme dynamic. They challenge others to re-think what they have previously defined as "male" and "female." in a way that other pairings do not.

As a child I never liked the "Leave it to Beaver" show, (two stupider boys never existed, and Dad was pretty much of a whining pain in the butt.) I never liked June Cleaver, and I never thought she was particularly feminine. I did not aspire to that particular style of beauty. It was too straight-laced for me. Now that I am an adult, looking back at the fifties and early sixties, I look at Ms Cleaver, and see the public image of many butches of the day. Short smoothed back hair, tiny earings, little or no makeup and the manliest dress they could get their hands on. Dresses were required attire for any female worker outside of a factory. You had to shut up and fit in or be unemployed. Home was the freedom place ... and the gay bar. I am single since the death of my darling, and I am registered on. well, lots, of dating sites, (lesbian dating sites.) Many of the women on these sites closely resemble June Cleaver.


For those of you who found Ms Cleaver's perfection to be challenging or daunting, remember - it is much easier to be perfect when you only have to do it for 1/2 hour per week.


Keep writing, my beautiful femmes, you are so smart.

Smooches,
Keri

I wanted to bounce off on this a little.

I was at the Queering Femininity conference in Seattle when all of the hullabaloo went down and was one of the original founding members of the Femme Collective.

When we all heard about the conference,we were so excited about the possibility of convening with other Femmes. In our misunderstanding, we heard "Queering Femininity" and thought "Femme Conference". It couldn't have been further from the truth.

There were about 20 of us who were part of a larger tightly-knit circle of Femmes who made the journey. I roomed with WickedSuzi and another Femme. When we arrived, we quickly discovered that not only was the conference NOT a Femme Conference but that Femininity was basically being used as a cash cow for the organizer. (a Transman)

While he made no bones about the fact that he was there to make money, it felt gross to us on a lot of levels that the conference was #1 very expensive and #2 racist and classist as shit.

There were several women of color there who had either been part of the steering committee and had been summarily dismissed or had outright quit over concerns about racism and white privilege that were not being addressed. I watched as one woman of color put up a hand written manifesto on the wall as you entered the large conference area where our main speaker, Minnie Bruce Pratt, and watched two minutes later when a white woman, one of the organizers, came and scribbled some "Nu-uhs" on it.

I watched as one of the women of color later boarded the stage to talk to Aiden, the main organizer, and laid down on the stage and asked him to step over her to demonstrate what it felt like to be a woman of color at this conference. I watched in HORROR as he did.

I went to some of the only workshops I found palatable. Needless to say, "Stalking the Wild Butch" was not one of them. I listened as Gay men claimed "Femme". I listened as Straight women claimed "Femme". I listened as a Transman claimed "Femme".

I watched thousands of dollars change hands at the registration table and I watched as at least 2 young Femmes were denied entrance for not having enough money.

Needless to say, Poochie, Kenya, Marjorie, Eve, Heart, and many others convened on that Sunday after all of the "festivities" in the lobby of the hotel and came up with a plan to do it better and to do it without harm.

The first 2 Femme conferences that I worked on weren't perfect but I do still wholeheartedly think that the intent was good.

Point to all of this is that I think Femme is co-opted in a lot of ways. By people, by movements, and in ways that are really harmful to us.

I think Femme gets co-opted when it is compared to straight woman or when it is seen as Stepford pussy.

I think it is co-opted when it is seen as a way to make money or a way to further your "organizing" career with no real interest in making the Femme community better or more accessible.

I think Femmes have to constantly and consistently shield ourselves from that kind of shit and I think it can get really tiring.

I don't know what my point was now but I think it is something about how we have to keep demanding space that makes us feel honored.

Have coffee!!
 

Can I ask two questions???


And please know that I mean NO disrespect, there is absolutely NO judgement, and I admire everybody for doing what they feel is authintic in their life.


1- When I saw Snow's first question. It seemed real simple to me. As evidenced by my response.

My question......how do we go from what *I* feel is a simple straight forward, the world was stupid, some people are still stupid answer, into a discussion of the feminist movement and the power players and et al.?

I know that sometimes I don't get down and dirty with things, but for me, the most simple answer is the most logical solution kinda thing?? Again, there is no judgement. I strictly want to understand the line of thinking. Cause maybe a little part of me feels I should go there too. you know? I really do. When I was in law school we had many courses in which we had to dig into the minds of others and I think I still have a hangover from that.


2- Medusa's last post help me formulate this question that has been bouncing around in my head for a while. Thanks Medusa!!

As a femme, I enjoy, love, need the bonding with other femmes. I love talking about what makes each one the femme they are. I like hearing histories and being invited into their lives and understanding what made them the femme they are today. However, I'm not understanding why we as femmes need to completley tear apart the meaning of femme, try to understand and put constraints on what *femme* is, is not, should be, could be...etc. Or Medusa are you talking more about just bonding discussions on a larger scale. Because I understand those. Obviously, I've never had the gift of being able to attend a conferance. And I sure am glad I missed that first one you described. I'm not nice.

It concerns me for a couple reasons if we are trying to label and define *femme.* But that's just me. And I really want to understand how other think about that?

Another note....I do COMPLETLEY agree that in the past, present and future, people have and will, display horrible bigotry towards people that are not *them*. The others I guess I'd call it. I believe that whatever group has been *othered* should stand up and call that bullshit out real quick and in a hurry!!! Actually, I feel that even when not in the *othered* group, if dumb shit behavior is displayed, you (general) should call it out. But I have concerns about how some of this sets up an us-vs-them sorta vibe which to *memememe* can be just as harming.

I'm not going real deep into my thinking because I really want to see what *you* think about my questions. Cause to me, that's WAY more interesting that thought i live with daily.

Or maybe this should be a different thread. Oh well, I just thought I'd through it out here and see.



j

I grew up in an unconventional home. My Mom and Dad were Hippies.. My Mom was raised beyond privileged and my father very poor. My mother informed him, she had to have her hair done every week and a housekeeper was expected. He complied and provided everything a princess could ask for.

First there was Mrs. Grimm (elderly) who made me say my prayers at night and gave me nightmares. Then came Georgia, an African American woman who cared for my sister and I, while my parents were busy living their life-style from the ages of 4 till about 10. In between a few others who didn't survive the household. Then came Olivia imported (pretty gross) by my parents from Mexico who still holds a place in my heart, that is deep and filled with admiration and love. She taught me how to love. She was 19 when she joined our family and when I say joined... She became part of us. My mother said, I ruined her.

I am not a caregiver in the sense of *June* - I do not cook and only eat, because I have to. I am lazy, beyond lazy when it comes to household prettiness. I do not prepare meals for my partner and honestly.. Could care less if my partner prepares meals for me - I don't care about food. I do want to be taken care of -- Honey, please take the garbage out and mow the lawn, so I don't break a nail. I am okay with this. Sometimes I just feel inept.

I have some pretty fucking dynamic Femme sisters here, and I am just in awe of them. They cook, they clean and they are oh so pretty while doing it - yet... These Femme's who I have mad respect and love for, are the most dynamic and powerful Femme's I have met, thus far. I can close my eyes and see a few in an apron, and it makes me smile. This does NOT diminish who they are as Femme's - They DO NOT live the 1950's stereotype - unless of course it is their kink!

This is a hard topic for me. It makes me angry and I feel repulsed, in part by me. I am not even a little bit June. I don't even have the ability to pretend to be June. Even if it were part of my kink - I couldn't do June. Nobody ever taught me how to be that woman - Olivia tried, but I failed. I was taught by Jimmy and Keith (they took me in as a runaway) how to do laundry. When I was in Australia, I was on the phone with Snow... Remember? DJ (Dreamer) was at work and I decided to be domestic. I was doing our laundry. Seriously.. Australia is still 1950's. I couldn't figure out how to hang the clothes on the line. I think you were impressed Snow (lol). I felt really proud and excited that finally - I could do something *Femme* like for my very very *Butch* partner. That little feeling of inept inside of me went away for just a moment... Until DJ came home and said honey - how cute you are! What an interesting way you hung my socks! Seriously baby? Seriously?

And it's not my parents who taught me to feel shame, or the straight women in my life... Sadly - It is my community who has instilled this sense of shame as a Femme, because I did not do (all that is femme and june like) for my partner. It is the Butches I have dated, that have judged me and some of the Femmes as well. And then came my strong fabulous Femme Sisters who whispered in my ear and reminded me, that who Julie is (me) is perfect the way she (me) is.

Julie

EDITED: As a side note. I was jealous of my friends who had *June Cleaver* households. I still am a little bit. I feel like I was denied a rite of passage, even though - the thought of this, repulses me.

http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/o...g?t=1351360305

Momma pretending to be the happy housewife - My father made the bottles and bathed us!

I think it's a bad idea to insist on some kind of public definition for femme although we all have our own. I think femme exists. We can attest to that. It can be named. But defining it will inevitably exclude. Iamkeri's definition is exclusionary. It would exclude me, for example. There are some amazing discussions about what it means to be African American. Finally, it comes down to being subjected to the kind of racism we in this country reserve for that group.

We can talk about what it MEANS to be femme, and I think those conversations are valuable. They include descriptions of our sexuality, our aesthetics, our politics, our humor, our experiences with invisibility, and so on. They will vary widely. That is the stuff out of which some sense of what femme means comes. And it should stay as unformed as that. IMO. As Judith Butler says, you have to risk a little incoherence for connection to be possible.

Part of allowing for incoherence means that the cooptation that Medusa decries is even easier. I don't favor policing our boundaries. People will coopt femme. That stuff happens, and policing it is pointless. If you start policing such things, you will end up policing one another too -- and excluding.

In a way, this discussion is very uncomfortable. I have no stake in arguing with Iamkeri. I have read her posts and respected them for a long time. I respect how she lives her life. But she just told me I am not femme. I had an emotional reaction to that even though I grant her definition no authority over me. I think these conversations are valuable, but they are not without risk. I think, femmsational, you are acknowledging that in your expression of concern.

But they are also valuable. That thread about femmes fucking femmes was very helpful to me. MY personal perception lately has been that the way femme is here has been narrowing a bit. I am so not going to take that on. If my feelings about that had remained unchanged, I imagine my partipation would have waned. That thread gave me a real lift, opened things up for me. I appreciated it.

Hi Julie! I am glad you got your coffee. I have my tea.

If I can paraphrase your two questions:

How do we go from the 50s sucked to a larger discussion of feminism?

Why do we have to break down femme?

I hope I have those right.

I think that taking any conversation to a bigger picture place is always helpful and, to me, fun. There are many times that I don't understand what people are talking about and am limited, especially in writing, from grasping the point. Sometimes I might figure it out months later! Heh! So I think that there can always be meaning beyond what seems to be a simple discussion. The fun part is that meaning might be vastly different for different people.

As far as why break down femme? For me as a latecomer to femme this ongoing discussion has been enormously helpful. I love hearing how other people experience femme. I do not always agree. It does not matter though because I have learned I can still be femme even if I don't agree with how others do it! That was a big deal to me.

I think that teasing apart Femme was part of my coming out process but that teasing apart Femme can help us get down to bone of who we are even as we're more settled.
Like, I've been out and identified as Femme for about 15 years.
My Femme looks very different today than it did 15 years ago partly because I've been exposed to other Femmes and partly because I've figured out that the "glittery babygirl" thing didn't *have* to apply to me.

I don't want to put constraints on what Femme is. I want everyone who identifies as Femme to be exactly the Femme they are without all the bullshit from outside.

What I find in my personal life is that I *do* fence Femme. I do dismantle and reclaim Femme in ways that feel empowering to me.
Part of the act of fencing might come across as un-fencing if that makes any sense. I fence (protect it) by reminding the younger Femmes in my life that they don't need to wear certain things, be certain things, they can just be who they are. I protect Femme by turning shit like "Femme needs Butch to exist" away at the door. I protect it by speaking up when I see Femme being used as "dating pool" instead of honored individually.

I also do not always agree...or maybe the better word for me would be 'identify'...with how other people claim Femme. Like, I see Femme as a Queer identity. It's hard for me to see Straight folks partnered with other Straight folks claiming Femme and even harder to try to identify with it. Doesn't mean I try to tell them they can't claim it, just means I don't resonate with them like I do Queer Femmes.
And that's where I remind myself that I don't get to or have to police that.

Redefining Femme, teasing it apart, reclaiming it, etc. can come with a price if we aren't super careful. I've seen conversations about celebrating Femme actually narrow the definition of what Femme is and I don't want that. I want my sisters, and even those who aren't sister but who exist in the same space, to feel honored in whatever form they take. I'd like to look up one day and see that Femme is so expanded and stretched that old femmes, fat femmes, differently-abeld Femmes, Femmes who fuck genders other than Butch, Femmes of Color, Femmes who don't have conventional beauty privilege, and Femmes who feel 'othered' don't have to keep having conversations and convincing people that they are Femme without the caveat. I don't know a way to say that any better right now but it's something akin to exploding our conception of "normal".

Thank you all for being willing to answer my clumsy questions.

I love all the different thinking processes I'm seeing.

I'm sorry Snow if you feel I've hijacked your thread. Let me know and I'll try to start a different one!!


j

Piggy backing of Ms Keri
 

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I'd like to touch on my personal perception of Femme, Femme is my gender, it's an evolution from dyke. My gender (Femme) isn't tied to butch, it really isn't tied to anything other that it's my gender presentation. AND because my Femme/gender varies I am comfortable with it because of the very fact that Femme is variant.

So with that thought process I am comfortable in my gender and I can express it fully from one end of the spectrum to the other and not skip a beat or worry about being *less than* when doing so comfortably in the real world. The only time I catch myself questioning my Femme "status" is online, but that's on me for letting others words fuck with my head.


I am Femme period. That means I am Femme as I sit here in my pajamas with my nappy hair pulled back, no make up, crusty ass feet cause I need a pedi, my hair all kinky and unruly and I am Femme.


That also means I can get up, shower, slap a dress on (I only wear dresses here no because it's Florida and it's fucking hot) and go to the store in flip flops no make up and I am jamming on my tunes as Femme.

Which also means when I am at work be it with stains all over me or a bit more cleaned up I am Femme.

I am Femme each time a piece of leather hugs my skin and I am Femme when applying my falsies and I am Femme when my thick cock is bursting from my hips and wiggles as I walk to my bed.


Femme, not tied to anything but me Snow... Who happens to be Queer and who came to her Femme via Queer experiences and Queer models I looked up to. I knew I was born Female yet I knew I wasn't *straight* (and what I guess I should say is heteronormative) that's why *I* feel that Femme is Queer because I know of no other woman who gets it when I say

"I'm Femme"

As a Femme I embrace all other Femme's and do get upset and riled up when a *straight* (hetero) woman is used as a Femme icon that I as a Femme should up hold.


I can't, she's not Queer, gay, lesbian, trans, bi she is a woman who's life is so different from mine and always will be our small similarities as women born into female bodies ties us via the ism highway.


I have that same bond with butches, but that doesn't make me butch.

Ouch.

I just read Keri's post.

That one stings.

I don't think Femme needs Butch to exist. I think I'm a Femme no matter who I fuck.

And I think that Femmes who fuck Transmen and other Femmes are still Femmes.

And I think that Femmes who don't want to fuck anyone are Femmes.

I don't think gender is defined by orgasm.

If June Cleaver defined femme for me, I wouldn't consider myself a femme.

This almost reminds me of a long ago post in which...
If you are in a sexual relationship with a Stone Butch - You are not a Lesbian!
If I don't eat Pussy - I am not a Lesbian. (sorry for being crass - but this is the statement that was presented).
If I don't fuck my partner - I am not a Lesbian.
Stone Femme's who do not touch are merely women who gain pleasure and are selfish!

Julie (Femme - Lesbian - Woman)