In my past I found some of my fears and apprehension and some apprehension my friends felt over my trans status may have caused some angst but for the most part I think all my butch friends and lesbian friends are very supportive and interested in my life here and in everyday. I have never felt like I am in competition with people over my gender and I don't think they have ever felt this way with me.

I'm glad you've got friends who are supportive. Wish I could say same for her and I. Unfortunately we've gotten shitted on quite a bit over the years but it's their issue, not ours.

I still remember our first date. Took her to a local gay club/bar and soon as we walked in the door, you could've heard a pin drop. Also if looks could wither, we'd crumpled to the floor. Lol.

Funny thing is, I've met some butches who were just fine with us until they found out that I was FTM. Then came the stares, the sneers, the eyerolling. Don't even think it's a competition thing at all with them because I'm very content with who I am and also very content with who they are and how they identify. It's literally an issue of being "traitors" because I want to be a man (even though it's not a "want" but something that just is) which is the easier, softer way for them. No matter the fact that it's the harder path for me to take since now I have to deal judgement from society AND the rainbow.

Brute, damn it is nice to read your post and let you speak for me. My head
is still pounding...whiney dude today. I think it is so important to put myself in another persons' shoes...emotionally...to really try and understand what could be going on inside their heads. And listen...if they will talk about it. I can understand the "traitor" feeling ...why the people in the rainbow would feel this way. I am actually struggling right now cause i find myself going back and forth now that i have come into this site...and not just because of the site...i have always struggled with this..."damn the straight society and i shall not be silent" and then the idea of
ugh...just let me live ok. That is really my issue. I have struggled with what i feel is a need to be OUT as a transman in order to LIVE as a transman.

As far as your invisible femme...i was in more than one relationship where
the poor femmes always kinda get the shaft. The best thing i could do for her was to tell her..."look, i respect and like so and so. So, i don't mind that
you come out to her if you need someone to talk to about US with a friend.
I think that is so important. And it really puts them at ease. I only asked of her...to let me OK who i would allow to know about me and US.

And i really need to learn how to clean up the format of my posts...

I have experienced certain friends viewing me as a traitor. People are gonna either work it out in themselves or not I guess. Mostly my supportive people are here and then I have a few constants that love me no matterwhat. I am lucky when I look at it that way. Gay clubs can be so rough sometimes and can feel very unwelcoming to people that don't don a bar stool night after night. I am sorry ya'll had to deal with that.

Wow. Love it when someone takes the jumbled up thoughts in my head and lay them out clearly so I can do the same in my own mind. I struggle with that too, DMW. The desire to be seen as queer, kinda like my own "fuck you" to society, and the desire to be seen fully as a male. Sometimes I wonder can I have my cake and eat it too? I have struggled with the traitor thing because my journey, my past is not something I ever want to let go of or forget because it is just an intricate part of me. Being a part of this community/rainbow is something I hold dear to my heart because I have much, much stronger connection with it then I do with the straight world.

I'm lucky in the sense that Julie gets me and the situation. I do feel bad that because I am FTM, there will always be shit thrown from both sides of the aisle and she'll be stuck in the middle of it. But that is her choice so feeling bad about it is on me, not her. She knows the ramifications of what being with a FTM will be and yet because of her strong sense of self and her desire for me to be completely okay with myself, she'll take the shit throwing. I can only imagine how much more invisible being with a FTM makes her, especially when I am able to fully transition. Thing is being with me isn't what makes her femme. It's just who she is. Unfortunately some folks will never see it that way.

Yea, I've figured out over the years how tough it is going into a gay club as a brand new face. In a sense I can understand the initial mistrust because we do have to be so very careful with who we allow in so as not to get hurt or fucked with. Yet on the flip side of the coin, so many folks just coming out feel like they're twisting in the wind and just want to feel like they belong somewhere.

Thank you for the condolence. It sucks but it's life as well. Again, huge reason I am so glad this site is here for us. Kinda like our own Cheers, where everybody knows our name. Lol.

Just Don't Call Me Norm,
Brute.

Julien, i have found that whether someone is gay or straight, how they treat me, really isn't the issue for me. For me it is about being who i am. I understand the fear...but, i try not to let that rule how i live or the choices that i make based on what i need. I read your post and it worries me for you actually. No matter where i am ...(gay or straight world)... i am trans and base my decisions on when and where and to whom i should "out "myself to....dependent on the given situation.

What is the MCC group?

I hope you come back soon because i may have to leave without hearing your answer and then you will have to wait for a reply from me.

Brute, love what you shared.

I gotta check out again. Have a good night all.

Hey, Julien, my apologies...i didn't get that when i first read your previous thread. I get the idea. I will have to think on it more and then respond later when i have time. You are in a bit of a pinch for sure. Have faith and hang in there. I hope someone new comes along to the group. If not, you have this place...and that is good.

Julien -

I just wanted to say that the stuff I did run up against was very subtle, and not in a community or group. I guess what I mean is that if you out yourself in the MCC, I am positive you will actually find people who gravitate *towards* you - being genuine almost always brings people closer, if in a safe environment. Yes, others may distance themselves a bit, but I think you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. I say, go for it.

Yep...
 

When you're ready, you'll know.


Brute.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I think I will...thanks !

You two have a great day !

Jonathan

You know....
 

I know how this shit feels from the lesbian community...not ALL of the community but a large part of it...in my experience anyway.

I don't give a rat's ass how someone identifies....that's their deal....but, because I aligned my body with my heart & soul, does NOT mean I am a traitor to the lesbian community...I never WAS a lesbian...THEY perceived me that way so that's on them. Yep, we've all heard the...."Well, if you want to be a guy....." shit. The butches that don't get it the feminists that don't get it. I think it's GREAT that they are comfortabe being masculine in their female bodies....excellent...for them. It was NOT for me & never has been.

The LBGT community is discriminated against by society & why the fu*k there's such "in-fighting" amongst these groups I've never understood. People are afraid of what they don't understand. I have often wondered if some of the shit I've heard from masculine butches isn't envy in a way. <Figuring I may get a LOT of shit over that statement...lol> It's just something I've wondered is all.....not something I believe to be true....at least not all the time.

Anyway, somewhere out there is another mate for me who will encompass ALL the wonderful qualities of my ex-wife, & be even more of a match for me. When I'm ready.......

Woah woah woah!!!

wtf??? I get we all have some pretty hard experiences in AND out of our own community and it needs to be talked about, but all the lesbian and butch bashing in this thread is gonna get moderated and then we will have no space to talk things out. Plus I really like my community members and respect them for their journey which I can only imagine is just as challenging as any one of ours. I am sure it isn't easy walking in this world as a butch person either so let's be bigger than we already are and figure out a way to talk about things without bashing our community members here or elsewhere.

I am not sure why you would think butches would be envious of us. I can't imagine any person wanting to walk in our shoes for all we have to go through. I think it would be important to point out that if somebody says to anyone of us "well if you wanna be a man" that this person is coming from an ignorant space and not a butch or lesbian space.

Julien, Hominid's last post quotes the post of yours that i was refering to in my last post. Keep that straight. Lol...and my last post came up just as your last post did. I think what Hominid said is some good advice. I believe that also. There will be someone in that group that is chill..and who knows...there may be new members to come. In my experience, i kinda pick and choose who i will open up to. But, sometimes that takes more time and patience. It can be annoying and exhausting. I am also, way hesitant with what i share with people, myself. It sounds like it is a new setting...I think staying positive and showing up to the meetings regularly is a good start.

Brute, i didn't even see that you were included in that also. Completely missed the word "I" in the her and I....geezle. Maybe time to go to the eye dr. Could be why i am getting these HA. I think you said that you are in a new area.That makes it thing difficult for awhile too. Transitioning and moving to a new area can be really trying. The two of you have each other and that is awesome. And i now realize that your femme was the femme that understood so well from the other thread...Good for you two! I am lovin' that realization. And it makes me smile.
I gotta go to work now...

I thought we were leaving the other thread out of this DMW???

What I see you doing is kinda like pitting femmes against each other I think and maybe we should rethink that. Many femmes participated over there and all of them understand our plights greatly. I find it insulting considering my pookie bear was participating over there and you need to stop. It is unwelcoming and you are the OP.

Darbonaire, i understand that you are struggling... but, please watch the inflammatory words...and please be respectful. Damn. I put my foot in my mouth too. Seriously, there is a time and place for some things. And you gotta know when to draw the line and watch what you say. People have feelings here Man. My post from yesterday got chopped up...i did chopped it up on accident.
So, i didn't get to clarify this same idea. I don't want you to feel picked on by me...but, damn man. Please watch what you say. Everyone on this site has to censor themselves with what they say in order to consider other member's feelings.
Keep that in mind and please be respectful. I have to go to work.

I have to agree with weatherboi on this one. Regardless of one's experience we cannot paint that brush against the whole of a group (largely because there is no way we've met everyone). That's no different than someone assuming we're all assholes because of one or more FTMs acting like assholes. Guilt by association is the wrong attitude, IMO, to take towards this. Rather than rant about what happened and do a "who is me, how horrible things were", why not rise above it and go beyond?

I think we sometimes forget the fine line that we have when discussing experiences versus making it sound like hatred or an -ism. By virtue of being male, some of how we describe our experience may come out as an -ism (whether intentional or not).

I think we have to speak entirely for ourselves and not for what others may or may not feel (that is, speak from the *I* place and not "them", "they", etc.). I cannot speak for nor would I attempt to speak for those who support me or are against me. Have I felt that kind of hatred? Yes. There are some who are like that. Is it the majority of who exists out there? No. Because I haven't met them all, only a small subset. But I wouldn't assume that everyone I've met is part of that subset either until they show me they are.

Your experience is important, Dabonaire. It has added to who you are but how we express that experience can either paint a whole group one way or another.

weatherboi, i didn't mean any disrespect to any of the other femmes from that thread. Nor, to you. And that is true...i should not have mentioned it. I honestly, was just happy for the couple that they understand one another so well. maybe i will ask for this space to be taken off. i almost did yesterday. I am sorry that i upset you. I am not pitting anyone against anyone...i was just trying to take away some of the stress by starting a new thread here. Not to perpetuate drama or to add to it.

If the thread gets taken down...that is ok by me. I don't want the responsibility of the OP...or claim that this space is mine to police or what have you. I am not a moderator. I will let them have at it or ask them to close the thread myself. Seriously, it's all good to me. I am not coming from an angry place or anything like that. Just sayin

And just so that people realize this: the creation of this thread has made it one of the most watched thread by not just FTMs but others. This isn't a private thread.

Remember that when posting.

And I don't want this thread shut down. I mentioned this yesterday to the moderation team how right now I was feeling unwelcomed in my own community. Now, granted that part of that is due to my own busy life and such but at the same time, there are things here that I think are due to a huge lack of us carving out our own sense of community or existence (or however it could be termed).

I think we need this space. Transmen tend to fade into the woodwork. It's easier for us. The transforums I've run into a run by transwomen and are geared more for transwomen. There is space for us there but it's overwhelming leaned towards one side. For me, I have a history with this community and I personally taking a stand that we not fade into the woodwork.

We need to do the work, the sweat, the tears (although crying has stopped for me since beginning T; anyone else?!), the blood and so on. We have an experience that needs to be shared but needs to be done so without "othering".. well.. others. We need to build our history.

I want a community that I can belong to and feel safe with, dammit. And if it's not here, then I'm screwed.

So rather than give up, who else will stand?

scratches you off the list of Ftm's I want to support.
To say something like this figuring you will get shit
but saying it anyway is way off base and
speaks to your self esteem issues not mine or anyone else's.

No envy here.
This is where the line in the sand gets drawn , for me.
Completely content being the butch that I am.
Crap talk like this does nothing to foster allies or friendships.

No worries DMW really!
I want to see this thread be successful. We are all equal peers here and trying to navigate individual rides.

Linus i am sorry, and i am sorry that i hurt weatherboi's feelings.
I thought about how the thread should have been started at a less emotionally charged time. If the moderators have to give me a time out that is ok by me. I will not ask them to shut down the thread.
I realize that the TOS says don't bring drama from one thread to another.
I didn't realize that saying something positive about one person would also bother someone else. That is sad. I will be very careful with what i say and i will also take a timeout if it has to be given.
That is ok. This thread should not be taken away from everyone because of a few people.

Thank you weatherboi...i am sorry. I honestly didn't realize that what i said about another thread could be misconstrued as rude. eventhough it was positive. I truly am sorry for that. Thank you for talking to me about it...i got some added time before work cause of this. I don't like hurting peoples feelings. Thank you

It's ok. Just remember context is everything.

Ok so,
 

Let me understand this cause I am NOT out to hurt anyone's feelings or cast aspersions....<walking on eggshells is SO much fun>....

So, let me emphasize this loudly & clearly please..I thought this was a place to share PERSONAL experiences....No, I have NOT found these things to be with every butch, or every FTM, or every Femme or whatever....these are experiences that have happened to me in REAL LIFE so no....no one on here is lumped into any catagory....not by me anyway...or should I say...not with ANY intent by me.

We have ALL experienced different shit in different places & at different times in our life. For some of you to jump on my post saying you don't support me..<like I give a shit btw whether you do or not...whoever you are>.....amuses me. That is your right..yes it is....so I support that. For the others who jumped to say I am disrespecting a GROUP or ALL of the butches, trans, etc. is not true & maybe if you didn't take a personal post from me as some personal affront to you...things would smooth out like they should.

These kinds of exchanges are the perfect examples of why I am not all that hot to post anything or even be on an online site. Written words cannot convey expression or inflection....they are read & "inturpreted" by those reading them. Sometimes the way they are meant...often not however.

So, let me say once again...& most likely for the last time...I am not here to offend, discriminate, cast aspersions upon or any other crap...I am here to share what I have found PERSONALLY in my journey.

So, how about those Braves?

And i now realize that your femme was the femme that understood so well from the other thread

Hey DMW-

I want to thank you for the dialogue and hope you understand after this I am ready to let all this go but

Let me be clear so you understand where I am coming from cause you seem to be missing it.

I have no problem you giving props to femmesational for her understanding of everything. I have no problem giving her props for her support of transfolk. My problem is while you are complimenting one femme you are using it in a way that insults others. Linus is right...context is everything and so is agenda and sometimes that dictates how we say things so I hope we can move forward here understanding what the problem really was. One slip up is one thing to me, but it has now been a few and you are not the only one doing it so I don't blame me questioning motivation, at this point I am guarded but ready to move forward...no more apologies just move forward.

I agree with Linus and weatherboi about context. Most of the guys who have been here awhile know I I.D. as Transmasculine. Being a life long Butch was very much a part of my journey getting to this point in my gender identity.

For me, once I started the process of transitioning I could no longer ignore that little voice in me that kept asking "Why?" I never identified as a "Woman Identified Butch." In my old thinking a Butch was clearly not a woman in the same sense as Femmes and other women.

I have been a member of the Butch-Femme sites for 12 or 13 years now. I have learned that not all Butches had the same experience or thinking that I did. That also is the same for Transmen. I have been legally a male for a little over three years now and my gender identity is not over.

Back to the "Why" of this. In finally deciding to "transition" for me I had to explore if there was self internalized misoginy involved in my decision. Honestly I did not think there was. I tried to take a hard and focused look as to what growing up in my country has taught me. What is the media, books, movies, "values," traditions, law, policy, religion saying now and historically about women? IMO it is saying, overall that women are meant to be in service to the greater good, sacrafice self if necessary, and raise families. I think women overall through out history were relegated to very pre-defined lives.

What I ultimately had to ask myself is how much of this stuff did I believe on some level? How did my actions, thoughts, biases, and words align with what I thought I believed?

I'm not sure *I* see "lesbian and butch bashing" - at least up to this post; every reference has been qualified with "some" and the like. It is part of many of our experiences that we are ostracized, sometimes outright, sometimes subtly. It needs to be okay for us to talk about; I hate to keep using the same analogy, but there are many threads that involve how femmes are invisible or ostracized often in the community - I don't see this as any different.

I also want to compliment this site - it is not the "community" I speak of.
I really don't want to see this descend into defensive garbage. We are ALL discriminated against by EVERY type of person often. Here, we are talking about the ftm experience. It isn't exclusive to anyone else's pain, it's just topical and very personal. Saying "butches and lesbians seem to have more of a problem with me" is NOT butch and lesbian bashing - it is a statement of fact for that person.

However, I really am glad one of us made this comment - we need to be responsible and careful and self-police.

This is great - exactly what I struggled with for a few years before transition. I was afraid I was leaning towards transition for the wrong reasons - thanks for saying this clearly.

reading, bbl

We do need to self-police. We need to recognize the experiences but rather than navel gaze them to death figure out how to prevent those same experiences from happening to those starting their experience. Not all FTMs come from a lesbian/F&B background. This community has been a supporter of trans individuals and even banned one of the most known transphobic individuals out there.

But I find that kind of person is rarer in this community than common. It sucks that this has happened to some of us (I had my share but not enough to be so vehement about it). I cannot change those individuals but I can be part of this community and let them see me for the man I am rather than what might be assumed about me.

Agreed on this. It's one of the reasons I started a thread on the idea about whether transman who transition are self-misogynistic. I know in some way I am in that I dislike my personal woman bits but that's my dysphoria/GID speaking rather than a hatred of women. Like you, I had to question whether there was more to it than just that. I refuse to be like cis-men and do not want to be compared to them. I am my own man and so much more than that.



Thing is, I don't believe we need to walk on egg shells. I've said it already and I'll say it again. Because this thread was "born" out of another discussion that was already hugely heated it's being watched like a hawk more so. In fact, IMO, there is a higher expectation on transmen than others because of what some would believe our experience to be (never mind that we all have very differing backgrounds from that of a living a straight female life to those living lesbian and those living femme).

It's unfortunate that transmen do face some of this kind of discrimination or animosity from other parts of the LGBTQ community (gay transmen that I know have commented how the gay community doesn't quite accept them either and neither do the straight men they may have dated in the past). But I'd like to believe that in this community of people the majority are supportive (we have over 4,000 and I've probably interacted with about 600 of that so I can't comment either way for the remaining but I'd like to believe they are just as supportive).

So rather than dwell on those who won't support us or what out right hate us, I'd rather hang out and get to know those will support us and like us. Will we ever be able to stop anyone from not liking us because we're transmen? No. There will always be those that dislike us because of who are. But I always try to make sure that it's not because of what I personally do or say (that doesn't mean toeing some line or walking on eggshells -- it just means being aware of the fact that there is more to the world than just me).


To that end, one of my biggest challenges is being seen as a man and not in the same light as a cis-gendered man. I likely don't have the same experience in my life as many cis-gendered men do. And the way people treated me in my female life before effected that experience. I often wonder how different I would be had I started my transition when I was in my 20s compared to doing it now in my early 40s. Already I feel like I've lived two lives, almost like a reincarnation (maybe that's what is meant by reincarnation).

I am not interested in straight women as opposed to femmes. I see women as women, no matter how they may identify. Some femmes feel invisibility about their identity and "pass" as straight where some FTM may "pass" as straight males also. For me and I guess what I'm trying to say is woman is woman and man is man for sake of the two genders. Of course there are lots of other gender identities and some FTM may not even ID as male but instead transgender, third gender, FTM, etc.. If one is FTM I'm gonna view him as male, just my opinion - "Female to Male" unless he lets me know otherwise.

Anyway, as far as women go (straight or femme) if she has an interest in me and who I am then I'm interested in her and like I've said it's "women" I'm interested in and not how they may identify. I've dated women all across the spectrum from queer, femme, bi, straight, dyke, lesbian. As long as they get me and understand where I'm coming from I have no issues dating any woman across the spectrum (well not now because I'm happily in a relationship :)) Do femme women understand FTM better than a straight woman? Maybe, but not in my experience. It all depends how they view the FTM and if you general have decided to share that part of you. We can't assume everyone including our own community knows what an FTM is.


I was born and lived in a small midwestern community, one of the states where Brandon Teena was killed for being a transgender. A lot of my friends were and are straight also. I dated a straight woman for 3 years and we lived together as a couple. Our friends understood us and knew me as the male counterpart in the relationship. They had no issues with it whatsoever. I appreciated their willingness to learn about FTM and their acceptance and it made me happy that if they messed up on a pronoun they were quick to fix that. They saw me as just another guy. Thankfully, I have not run into people that are hateful about it or dont' agree with it. I'm more scared of this happening here in the good ol south of FL. I share my life of an FTM with people that are close to me, employers, some coworkers and others that I trust and want close in my life.

I've ran into femmes that aren't sure about FTMs and how they identify. They have made mistakes calling me her, she, girl.. and It blew me away.. I somehow get more upset when this happens in our own community then if a straight identifying person would mess that up. Has anyone ran into that also? and
another question to you all is, do you think femme women understand FTM better than a straight woman or vice versa? What are your experiences with this?

and.. another question yet, Who do you share that you are an FTM with and do you explain it or do you just let others assume you are butch, lesbian or a straight male or however they may view or perceive you?

I don't tell anyone usually. I had to tell my back doctor, who was sitting and looking at my MRI (which clearly showed my hoo-ha) -he was trying to tell me that some of my symptoms might be my prostate.

I didn't move, I kept the same job during transition, my kids started out with two moms in the same school system - so people know. It's just been so long I'm not sure who knows and who doesn't. The occasions for telling people are practically non-existent. I haven't tried to date anyone I've met, so haven't had to deal with that, and on a few dating sites I say I have transitioned in my profile.

hehe.. this reminded me of the couple times at the airport when I had to go through the tsa body scanner. both times they made me go back through and then they called me sir. I just walked away smiling. (I am pre op)

And they probably never comment on your ID (if it still has the other sex identifier on it?).

I have noticed, since post-op (top surgery), that the big body scanners require them to check my right pec. I think there is some weird scar tissue growth or something that some of them detect as an object. :blink:

Lovin this thread. I'm keeping up with reading it. Will add when I have more time. Great job! (we really did need this).

It is totally not cool to refer to butches as envious when it is only a guess about a group of peoples character. It is divisive at best with an air of insecurity on the part of the accuser. Self inflicted. Qualifiers don't give us a pass to say whatever we want to. If you read back to that post Darbonaire made, he was merely taking a side swiping guess about the envy. Shit stirring verbiage and he even admitted to it. I think he even insinuated that he didn't care. All this stuff is way overkill to describe an experience.

I am all for talking about trans invisibility. I feel a certain responsibility to remain visible within my community and out amoungst the masses. Here in Jacksonville just like everywhere else we are a minority within a minority. I watched the LGB part of our community use gender expression and identity as the bargaining chip to try and gain rights, so they took us out of the original bill under the list of people protected. 2012-296 was the bill and tried to push it forward.
I will never forget the day I read the addendum to the original bill. 2 reasons it felt shitty for me and silencing resulting in my own feelings of invisibility. The first was my clear lack of investment and support for my own rights. Secondly was how very clear to me that a certain aspect of my community that was willing to bargain with my rights because of my lack of involvement and their lack of education when advocating for me as an organization. The attitude was at all costs, some is better than nothing, and that they (HRC) would build on it.

I also experience trans invisibility within my own subculture of trans. I have guys that refer to me as butch because of their own shit. Recently we hosted a small dinner party and one of the transmen that attended kept referring to me as a butch. The dinner requires protocols so I had to navigate a conversation around antiquated beliefs revolved around creating hierarchy within the trans community. It worked for me in that situation. In other situations with less restrictions I tend to grab that kind of thinking and break it down to roadkill. This kind of internal transphobia pisses me off more than any other discriminatory experience I have been privy to. I don't like discourse from within but I am not afraid of confronting it and examining it. IMO it is the first place we should be starting.

Maybe they just like checking pecs. Like I said I'm pre op, no top surgery here yet. That's where they seem to go with me.


They also checked my knee, I'm like what , I have metal in there I didn't know about? lol

Yeah, I think they are not allowed to question identity (male,female, etc) but still don't understand why they say ma'am, sir.. :blink: Usually by then though these people at the scan machine haven't seen my ID.