Hi Girl,

Stud can also be defined as the structural part of a wall that eventually holds up the house itself...And isn't that what being butch is about? Strength, tenacity of will and structure....all a part of the foundation of life.

So, next time you hear stud and it offends you to think of it in "breeding stock" terms....think of it in this way...

there are always two sides to every story....just how you look at it that makes the world of difference.

MacDaddy

As I understand the term:

The difference is that you are using the term/behaviours of a group that has more power than you do. That is why this would not be defined as appropriation.

This wouldn't be appropriation because it is the same group.

--------------

To me, this is yet another example of white privilege.

I also encourage you to watch a documentary that is a few years old called The Aggressives.

It followed a group of multi-identified POC in New York City over a period of years.

It was an education for me for me about a part of our culture that I knew nothing about.

Many of those featured, did identify as Studs (also trans, butch, lesbian).

I watched it on Hulu but believe it is also Netflix streaming.

When someone who is not in the culture and uses that cultures labels, definitions, genders, traditions, etc etc it IS appropriation.

Sometimes I want to look at white folk and ask:

Really? you also want macha, stud, Pappi? Really?

Cause you don't own enough already?


Thanks Dapper for saying something.

I completely agree with you and

I feel like a younger generation of queers (regardless of race) adopting an ID like 'Stud' has less of an icky appropriation feeling than if they were to co-opt 'Macha', 'Pappi' or 'Aggressive' because while 'Stud' has historically been used by queer POC it feels less connected to a single group or culture. 'Aggressive', 'Macha' and 'Pappi' would feel like really icky appropriation to me, because those IDs feel very specific and very closely tied to culture, to me.

'Stud' (noun) and stud (adjective) crosses a few cultures and common uses. It's not uncommon, for example, for it to be used as a descriptor for many different male sub-groups. Just like 'Butch' is commonly used as both an identity and a descriptor in gay-male and heterosexual male communities.

But, I do come from a place of white privilege and I recognize my feelings on this could be an example of that privilege, I'm completely open to hearing if people feel differently.

I knew self-identified Studs and Aggressives when I lived and worked in east and sarf London. Which is not to say there aren't self-identified S/As all over the UK - because I am sure there are. The areas of London I lived, worked and socialized were very culturally diverse and quite queer, and that is probably why it is more familiar to me. As a sweeping generalization, I would say, the majority of people who ID'd as Stud or Aggressive were POC, young-ish (40 and under) & inner-city/urban oriented queers.

But as to your supposition that it is only used by an exclusive minority...hmmmm...I think I would extend that thought and say that I found that gender-related IDs were used by a minority of queers that I knew in the UK, when I lived there. (8years ago now and lots has changed for sure, especially in relation to genderqueer identities.)

I didn't know a lot of queers who claimed Butch/Femme IDs either. There seemed to be an eschewing of "labels" regardless of individuals' gender presentation or desires/personal attractions. I knew a lot of queers who fell soundly to the masculine or feminine side of the gender spectrum but not a whole lot who embraced Butch (as a noun) or Femme (as a noun) IDs.

Perhaps that is why Stud/Aggressive seems a small sub-group to you?

I think there in lies another interesting cultural difference between the US and the UK.

Or perhaps that is where the queer culture in US is moving too, but I'm have a myopic view because of my ID and the places I socialize/find community.

I saw it at the Film Forum on 13th Street in the West Village, back when it came out.

I was struck by how much the women were struggling economically, and how they talked about getting their GED.

Later I started a free GED class at the LGBT center in NYC and I think there are studies that back up what I saw, that people who are outliers on the culturally defined, gender-expression scale are more likely to struggle with education and poverty.

Also, they are more likely to go into careers that are less typical for their sex, which shows their perseverance and resourcefulness.

At some point in the late nineties, young studs and aggressors and other lesbian and butch/femme women of color began frequenting Henrietta Hudson's, a lesbian bar in the West Village, and its demographic changed dramatically.

I heard a white lesbian complain about the change and express her racist dismay (I got into a huge argument with her...lets just say I didn't fit in well with that particular girlfriend and her crowd, kinda funny as I look back), but to me when I walked past the long line out front of the bar, all I saw were incredibly young, it seemed, butches, studs, and aggressors in little groups dressed for a night out in the clubs, probably hoping to impress girls, like the kids in my classes at that time.

It's not my culture but I am surrounded by many cultures here in NY and somehow in all morphs into something that does feel like my culture, because when I get into a less diverse cultural setting I feel uneasy, like I will be "found out" and not welcome there, though I pass for fitting in at first, which yes, I know, is a privilege I can work to my advantage economically and career wise—and my GED students including the studs didn't have that option.

I wasn't really thinking (and didn't mean to imply) that there is a proliferation of self-ID'd Studs and Aggressives all over Blighty. :) But I would guess you'd find people who ID like that in Manchester and Glasgow, maybe Brighton, possibly Liverpool... essentially, as you note, in the heavily urban areas where there are larger queer communities and thus more diversity within those communities.

I am remembering
 

...someone named Studmuffin.

I've heard the term first in this context and I've been called "stud" and "stud muffin" in reference to cool or super hero like.


I've also heard butches referred to that term "stud" also and mostly on some lesbian websites.

Interesting about the cultural thing. I do know it's referred to butches. Is it more referred to for male identified butches? Curious to hear more and how others use this term.

I heard the terms several years ago when watching a documentary.
I think it might be the same doc that Anya and Island Scout are talking about, which is, I think, this one:

The Aggressives 1/6 (LGBT Documentary)

"A documentary look at women who prefer to dress and act as men
and who participate in NYC's predominantly African-American lesbian drag balls. (2005)"




If you go to view the youtube video at youtube, you can catch the other 5 parts
- I just checked both Amazon and Netflix and it is not available to stream on either.

God, we sound white. I guess because, for the most part, we are. I guess my white privilege allows me to forget that sometimes.

Hi Massive,

I know there is much more to Great Britain than London, I promise. :) I had the privilege to experience some of it (though not nearly enough). I lived there for 7 years, I consider myself blessed to have made my home there for a while. There are many really wonderful cities and areas outside of London; and yes, other thriving, vibrant queer scenes beyond London. I agree! :)

I only mentioned London because Daktari's asked me 'where' my experience of Stud culture was in the UK. I wasn't comparing London to any other city or region in the UK, or placing a value on London's queer scene versus any other.

I don't think there is anything wrong with you or Daktari not having met anyone who IDs as a stud. And I wasn't trying to demean your experience in, or contribution to, your queer communities.

I think it is just an issue of racial diversity. When I lived and socialized in a very racially diverse queer community I knew people who ID'd as Stud/Aggressive. I currently live in a very homogenic community and I don't know anyone who ID's as a Stud here.

Lucky for us we have BFP, we can share our experiences and trade ideas and learn more about one another.




Sorry for the tangent, OP. :)

Thank you Sparkle, I didn't mean to come across as so defensive, I'm just used to people making the assumption that I'm from London.

As an aside, the one part of living in rural england is unfortunately, the lack of rural diversity, it makes me cringe when a POC is taking a holiday here and local people stop and stare, it just horrifies me!

Thanks for this thread, Girl On Fire :) I've been struggling with B-F terminologies in general, so it's helpful to see threads about these terms being discussed. While I see the sense of simply googling, it's a passive act. I find reading active discussions on the topic more interesting. Language and semantics are ever evolving, to reflect the people who use them. Aren't we the ones who collectively 'own' these terms, and who are most active in deepening and evolving the language that we use?

... I thought that's as good a meaning of 'stud' as any :cowboihorse:

I don't quite understand this part. Why would the gay community want to avoid self empowering labels? Aren't we in the business of self-empowering?

Yes 'we' are.
However I find that in the wider 'gay community' I encounter here in UK, including many of my 'gay' friends, folks don't use the labels we embrace here in the b/f world. Mostly I find the attitude to be "I'm just me, I don't need labels". I have observed that those who embrace labels are those who don't 'fit', into the wider gay 'community'.

It is my experience that most folks I come into contact with, homo or hetero, don't understand the need for self empowering, self identifying labels...until a patient person explains the need.

:chaplin:

It's been overwhelming to sift through and keep up with the labels, I had given up. After finding this community, it feels that for once, there are labels that I might be able to identify with. Thank you for explaining, I've never thought of labels as self-empowering, yet I'm beginning to feel it even if I can't explain why.

AS for the term "papi"
 

I've only heard papi referred to for male identified individuals, gay or straight. My girl actually calls me papi = daddy. I also know mostly latin people, male and female, use the term to call younger latin males. . and guys call other guys papi too. At least here in Fl where I am. I'm sure when they use that term "papi" it's not in reference to daddy but instead a male they believe is good looking. Hence the term "papi chulo"

Cause I am to tired to type about it
 

>LINKYLOO<

"Excuse Me Sir"


All the shows are actually all very informative, you'll have to look them up on YOU TUBE to watch them.

Uh huh
 

Me too, when ruffryder mentioned only the cis male version of Papi I remember how lucky I was to have been around a diverse POC queer experience. I really urge folks to read/listen to Q-Roc's stuff it's very informative.

I wish more POC gender variant folks would come to BFP to share experiences and culture.

Excellent post Mr. Day. I think of butch, femme, papi and other descriptors as you said as identities. A woman spoke at a conference we went to and she said labels are what others apply to you and identites are what you use to express yourself. I thought this was a great way of putting it. Are labels and identities the same thing? I don't think they are.

That was helpful, actually. Thank you. I think it's great this has turned into a real, diverse, cultural discussion. :)

Another Perspective...

WTF
 

You're kidding me right?

What perspective is this?

I realize everyone has different perspectives but this whole video bothers me on so many different levels. I don't even know where to start so I think I will just end with WTF

but she's like totally been a lesbian for a year now

futch and stem<== strike them :hammer: from the record
thank you