what makes a 'pretty butch'?

lots and lots of lip gloss.

Nah.... not out of the loop.. We all are a bit loopy...

:simplelaugh:

Really? I've had a gay guy send me a drink with the pick-up line relayed by the waitress... "You're either the prettiest guy in the room or the handsomest woman".

Didn't bother me, nice compliment...

What makes me a butch?
 

I have heard it and done it. I call 'em as I see 'em and if someone is handsome, I say so. If they are beautiful, I say so. If they are pretty...so on and so forth. :)

I must not be reading the same thing you are, Andrew. I don't see anyone cutting anyone down. This thread has the potential to blow up, but I think the responses have been quite respectful, actually.

I was curious, so I went back and re-read Kayden's opening post. When he says:
I interpret that to mean he is looking not for a discussion about any one individual's personal identity, but a discussion about the ideas of "butch" and "masculine" and how they get expressed in our community without triggering common stereotypes. I read his question as asking if that's possible, or if the ideas of masculinity are already stereotypes; and it seems to me that he is asking not about any one individual's personal identity, but about general categories of identity--masculine, in particular.

I get it that sometimes people feel like they're being put on the spot in gender and identity discussions, and I understand that it gets old feeling like a person has to "defend" themselves... but I think that feeling usually happens because of misunderstandings. We don't all read other people's posts in the same way; sometimes something that seems crystal clear to someone is not actually what the poster meant.

Sometimes we struggle pretty hard to find the words to say what we mean--and I know I fail pretty often at that! It's especially hard when it's ideas I've never put into words before.

Sometimes we have such different experiences in life that what someone else posts just plain flat makes no sense to another person, and that's happened to me, too, not just as the person who doesn't understand but also as the person who is not understood.

These are the difficulties of having these kinds of conversations online.

Every difficulty, though, has a benefit. The benefit of this struggle to say what we mean in a way that others can understand--and get what we truly meant, in the way we meant it--especially when we're trying to talk about things we've never had the words for before, is that we all have a chance to see gender identities (again, not individual people's gender identities, but "gender identities" as a category) in new or expanded ways.

I would not be the person I am today if I hadn't had the benefit of this kind of discussion several times over the years. Reading what others had to say and then figuring out if it fit my life or not brought me peace with my own identity and helped me to feel like I was part of a real community.

To answer Kayden's question about masculinity and stereotypes, I think our current b-f community ideas about masculinity are partly based on stereotypes, and I think that's unavoidable. Just saying the word "masculine" brings up instant stereotypical images. It's supposed to; that's what words do. It's like an icon that we click in our brains to open a program, yanno? It's supposed to do that.

The value I find in conversations like this is that we can go beyond those images; the icon may open the program Masculinity 1.0, but our conversations can update it to Masculinity 1.2, or 2.6, 3.0... who knows how far we can update the program if we're willing to keep talking? And so even though it's a struggle to find words that others will understand, and even though after all these years I still cannot articulate completely what "masculine" or "butch" might be even when I do have the words, and even though I know I will more than likely fail again each time I try, I still believe the conversation is valuable to our community.

Edited to add--here's a video that I really liked, called "Tomboy." It's about a 9 year old girl who runs into gender stereotypes at school. http://vimeo.com/10654889

Even know there is often some truth in stereotypes unfortunately stereotypes are too often used to as basis of un-founded prejudice and as an excuse not to re-think pre-judgments about the groups in question.

To me they're much less a guide point or archetype and more often a characature that really over-all a extreme few would ever actually fit.

Giving them credence as truth or making any assumptions or judgments based on them, instead of the individuals themselves sets up for a value system right off the bat... more _____... less _____ ... stereotype.

I think there's a difference between having an fair idea "what butch means" that there's a 101 ways we express ourselves as individuals... then people looking to stereotypes and going from there.

Just another way to be judged.

Metro

ETA: Hair cuts are one thing but there's also a lot of negative to the stereotype of butch, as stereotyping generally comes from people outside the group in question.

Ditto. I don't even id as butch. it's bigger than that for me. and it's mine alone. the suffering is mine alone, and so is the payment to be me which is a straight man in a semi-female body.

I think what butches have in common is having grown up with similar experiences and internal feelings that made us feel different from other girls/females. I use common and similar loosely, since our life experiences and internal feelings will vary from individual to individual as well as due to things like generation, geography, class, race etc.

Still, I think most butches grow up feeling different, being drawn to things that are often labeled "boys things," feeling an internal dissonance between what the world expects of us and how we feel about ourselves.

We may have had crushes on little girls, waited and waited until we could finally wear pants to school, longed to find others like us. Then we grew up and found other lesbians, gays, queers. Maybe lesbian fit, maybe it didn't, but even if it fit there seemed to be something missing that we couldn't quite figure out.

Some of us, before discovering the amazing femmes that were out there, maybe thought there was something wrong with us. Some us thought we were attracted to straight women because none of the lesbians really turned our heads.

Then we learned what butch was- in our various ways. It clicked. It fit. We felt more comfortable in our own skin.

To me butch is a journey and a place where I fit more comfortably in my own skin.

This is a really, really great post, BullDog. I think that you hit it right on the money for many of us.