Yes. Thank you. :)


I think that we step onto dangerous ground when we belittle queer relationships as publicity stunts/ not real. This is already done to us by society and I dislike seeing it in our community.

If you know them personally and want to spead that around, go right ahead. :)

Sorry, I didn't mean to derail. It was a bad example...regarding representation in mainstream media.

I don't know if it's that much of a derail (IMO) to want role models. MSM is where we tend to look. Why not celebrate in a femme who is a major figure (model, actor, politician, whatever)?

I have had people say I am just a straight woman and that I want a man.

I have been an out Lesbian since 1984. I strap on. I love pussy. I have a girlfriend.

What does it take to accepted as Femme?

To have no one jealous of me who just says shit?

What does Portia have to do?

I think it is normal to want role models. We have the unique opportunity of having a teenager that id's as a bisexual Femme. I find it fascinating that because she has been socialized in a Butch/Femme household that it is all normal for her. We pay special attention because the house is often filled with baby butches and femmes who are drawn here like moths to flame.

I wonder what I'd be like today had I been socialized in a Butch/Femme environment?

I certainly understand June's point about wanting stories from us, but why is a feminine appearing woman's status (whether femme or not) as lesbian/queer more often than not in doubt? She's been dating women since 1999, been married to a woman since 2008. Is anyone wondering whether the more androgynous Ellen is really a lesbian?

Anyway, here's a recent interview Portia de Rossi did

http://www.advocate.com/article.aspx?id=106125

I guess I don't know what to say now.

I mean all we can do is say we are Femme. If someone wants to think we are just straight women then they are free to say whatever they want to say.

A year or so ago someone I considered a really good friend said I was just a straight woman and implied I cheated on Cynthia with men. I am still speechless and very hurt.

All we can do in response is just be ourselves.

I do think it is important to note that when Femmes say "oh so and so is not really Femme or even Queer" it demeans all of us. It's like the ultimate insult for someone Femmes don't like. The ultimate cut. Be who I want you to be or with who I want you to be with or you are a straight woman.

What answer is there for that?

Educate them.

You will need to educate people since it's not in MSM and they won't understand otherwise if they are not clued in. It sucks to have to out yourself each time to educate them but unfortunately, it's a reality in society (it's a page from the trans community and sometimes, something we have to do; I haven't had to do this yet but have no qualms about doing it if the situation ever rises -- I'm already used to educating colleagues who should know but..).

This is where I feel Femme's are more fierce when it comes to criticizing one another.. We tend to go for the jugular... I am not straight, straight looking, straight acting nothing. Yes I was married, I have been tagged as *breeder* and NONE of that can take away from what I am

That is Femme... combat boots and all.:eyebat:

The more feminine one appears, the more people put our value down.. I know for me sometimes my own peers will not recognize or ignore that I am femme unless I have a masculine appearing counterpart on my arm oh wait more like me on theirs..

Make sense?

That discussion sparked me to start thinking a little more critically about how the Femme community impacts and is impacted by this same continuum of "being more homogenous/acceptable/feminine (and insert any number of things that mean "more than what you already are")".
How do we as Femmes impact the visibility of Female Butches?
This question made me defensive, and I don't really know why. My gut reaction is I don't really care how I impact others' visibility, especially butches. So often femmes are identified by who we fuck vs. who we are. This question struck me as an extension of that stereotype. I think the phrasing made me feel like I should apologize if I do impact their visibility. Perhaps I'm just not sure what you mean?

Do we, as Femmes, have a continuum in our own community where the hyper-feminine is more valid/valued? What does that look like to you when it's in action?
I don't feel it as much as I used to in my immediate (R/T)community. I have felt it strongly in the past. It looks like my Hooters/Martha Stewart movie nightmare. It reinforces boring stereotypes and creates competition to be the fairest of them all.

How does this continuum affect our visibility or does it?
Whose visibility? Femmes? or the whole community?

There was also some discussion around pronoun usage and several folks brought up what it might look/feel like to a Femme if she were "he'd" on a regular basis out in the world but also (and especially) in this community.
Thoughts on this?
I wouldn't like it.

I'm having some thoughts on visibility and the celebration of movement toward each end of the spectrum for both Femmes and Butches. Particularly Im thinking about how there is something going on with Butches being celebrated as they move toward a more masculine presence and Femmes being celebrated if they maintain a more "hyper" Femme way of being. (Although I will say that I personally don't feel a huge push in our community to be more "valid" as Femmes by being "more" Femme)

Im thinking about how all of these things might affect our visibility as Femmes and how much we do/should care if we are invisible to the outside world. Do you think it is important for people to see you as Femme? Do you feel seen as a Femme in this community? How do you think your experience as a Femme with invisibility is affected by the marginalization of Female Butches?
It is important for me to be seen as femme. Femmes tend to be fierce, unique beings who grab femininity by the balls and never let go. So to speak. I'm proud to be one. I don't think my experience as a femme is affected by the marginalization of female butches, but my social circle is almost exclusively male identified butches.

I hate hate hate the term Breeder. It makes me soooo angry, and it's just another way of othering.

Yes, I try to, but it only happens in the Butch Femme community, not out in the world. My STRAIGHT friends get it, even my regular Lesbian friends. It happens in this community as a slam.

I wish we could as Femmes be more supportive of each other and if we are going to toss insults pick one other than so and so is straight!

That negates so much about who we are!

Fierce Femmes!

Forgive me, I am tired today....

But if Butch is just something evolving into something else?
and Femme can suddenly be straight if someone says so?

Then why are we even here?

We really don't exist at all if this is true.

I know, I know.....:dontfeedmods:

Just have been reading the threads from over the weekend, and I feel kind of empty right now.

Will be back tomorrow, maybe the sun will be shining and I will feel more my usual :spider: self.

Portia and Ellen are so adorable together and they really seem a bit private to me. I would absolutely hate to think that their relationship is anything but the real thing - I guess I do care on a personal level. I have just been really impressed with how they are managing. I think Ellen is really in a great position to "change hearts and minds" of mainstream America and I think she's doing a great job. I guess I read them both as pretty genuine and I am grateful to them both for being willing to play the role they play in American culture.

I remember talking to an guy friend of mine about a huge crush I had on a butch back before I figured it out. He said - of course you like the butch ones -that's because you're straight. What sucks is that I didn't understand myself or butches enough to question him.

A good female friend of mine - whom I flirted with regularly - would say often to me, "you just think you're a lesbian because you haven't tried it. I thought I was until I tried it, and then I knew I wasn't." I bought that line for a long time. The most damaging thing about buying that line is that I felt like I could not id as a lesbian unless I had fucked a woman. I didn't feel legitimately capable of saying that I knew. If I had been butch or if I had been more androgynous, I don't think I would have gotten that feedback and I think other lesbians would have at least recognized me during that very ling period of time that I questioned myself. So I think being invisible to others kinda led me back into the closet every time I tried to come out or even come out to myself. There are days when I severely wish I had those years back, but i should have been more confident in my knowledge of myself at a younger age.

I could have saved myself so much time if I hadn't sought so much advice from straight people.

Well all of that certainly got things going! And my goodnes folks are quick to jump on someone in here. But yes I do mean Portia and not Anne Heche. That's another whole crazy can of worms and not for here at all.
But in any case, the point is that sometimes I read that we want MSM role models and will take them in any way we can get them. I don't agree and prefer to think of regular femmes who live an out loud life on a daily basis as the heroines of this story. But then when we start to discuss one 'star' or another folks tend to throw in the 'who cares...I'd rather talk amongst ourselves'. And so would I but also in the context of the MSM because in many ways that defines us in spite of ourselves and what we say here. It's that deconstruction that interests me.

I don't need any Main Stream to define who I am, hell I don't think that we will ever be evolved enough to allow women talk about having strap ons, slaves, and love orgasms giving them or getting them. So I am not understanding how you can say this??... I really can't..

Yanno I did not think there were Queer Police who had guidelines or timelines to how long you have to be in the in crowd to be allowed the gay card.... I don't feel that was ok, and very erasing to our newly hatched (recently out) femmes in this community

First, I don't think anyone has said we need MSM role models to define us. It would be nice to see our community represented much in the same way that I love having Hispanic role models in the MSM.

We are far to particular to "take them in any way we can get them." which was my point when I originally mentioned Portia Derossi. It was a side effect of mentioning our invisibility. In r/t and in the MSM.

I'm pretty sure we're going to continue being our Femme selves whether or not a Femme in the Entertainment industry is out and proud. We're surrounded by every day role models here in this very community and I love that.

No queer police here, to the contrary actually. Sorry I don't get that benefit of the doubt here on this all-inclusive and welcoming/loving femme thread. And as to the MSM 'validating us' if either LS or SF would read my post instead of yelling a me you would see that I agree with you. What I was trying to say is that the MSM portrayals are what reinforces alot of 'the other' as we move out into the real world and interact with folks not on this site.