Butch Femme Planet - Religious Holidays in Public Schools

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- - Religious Holidays in Public Schools (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1762)

In Colorado there is a charter school that addresses the community concerns of including pagan and Native rights. This school is still going strong.
Most of the charter schools I've known anything about are much more responsive to parents concerns. I remember there was a charter school in California that was started by the muslim community, but because of 911 they have been harassed by the state for the teachers credentials.

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Originally Posted by Corkey (Post 157522)

Like the teachers at that school had anything to do with 911.

Very sad.

Shows zero division of church and state.

Should get at least a week off for Festivus!

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Originally Posted by Jess (Post 157555)

Should get at least a week off for Festivus!

Make it a month that we get too and I'm in!

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Originally Posted by christie0918 (Post 157387)

Come to our neck of the woods and you have businesses recognizing Easter Monday. *eyeroll* I'm not certain why its a holiday, but it is. Guess that stone rolling on Easter Sunday requires recuperation time!

(No offense to any who might celebrate Easter Monday, but with my hellfire and brimstone upbringing in the Southern Baptist Convention, this wasn't ever mentioned)

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Originally Posted by Corkey (Post 157443)

I don't think I've ever herd of Thanksgiving being a religious holiday. It is a white mans holiday to celebrate the population surviving with the help of the Native people.

The original concept of Thanksgiving was purely religious (Puritans). Of course like many other things, the original concept has developed into something else. To me, it is a day to spend with Family.

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Originally Posted by UofMfan (Post 157561)

I never heard of Easter Monday. Here we take off from Weds to Sunday, but never Monday. Most people take the entire week as most of their children are out of school during that time. Learn something new every day, Easter Monday :) We also call Friday, Holy Friday, not Good Friday, I never understood why it was called Good Friday in the US.

The original concept of Thanksgiving was purely religious (Puritans). Of course like many other things, the original concept has developed into something else. To me, it is a day to spend with Family.

LOL not a puritan.

I forget who asked--HSIN, maybe?--but yes, Thanksgiving in the US is very often a four-day weekend. Many schools give kids the Friday off.

Work-wise, though, it's different if you're in service or retail. It's called Black Friday and it's the make-or-break day for so many retail businesses that a tradition of huge sales that start insanely early has sprung up.

In effect, we go from a day of giving thanks for all we have to a day of insane and utter greed, as if what we have means nothing at all. There are people who refuse to participate in this, but not many. Even some people who complain about the commercialization of Christmas participate in the Black Friday sales to get Christmas gifts cheaper.

What this has to do with Thanksgiving? Not much, except that I guess retailers are pretty thankful when their books get out of the red and into the black (that's how it got the name Black Friday).

Hey now! If we wanna have a holiday, I am ALL about Black Friday! I support local business, I increase state revenue coffers in sales tax dollars AND I get new shoes!! Now if that aint a holiday, I dont know what is :dance2::blueheels:

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Originally Posted by Bit (Post 157623)

{{{{{{{{{{Christie}}}}}}}}}} Ya made me laugh!

Black Friday and all those crazed people? I would rather go barefoot!

OK, yes I like to go barefoot and like to look at shoes and not wear them, but seriously, it is a nightmare to me. People, noise, sudden movements....eeeekkkkkkk.

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Originally Posted by Corkey (Post 157443)

I don't think I've ever herd of Thanksgiving being a religious holiday. It is a white mans holiday to celebrate the population surviving with the help of the Native people.

No, it isn't religious and what you say here is quite true. It is actually an affront to Native Americans. It has no religious sanctioning at all, however, it was the design of founders in the US seeking religious freedom and drenched in their religious underpinnings which were Christian.

We in the US have been sold the myth of Thanksgiving lock, stock and barrel! If it had any intention of gratitude to natives, the traditional Thanksgiving meal would be fish and corn!

I can get behind being thankful for many things in my life, but I can't celebrate this holiday as it is portrayed in the US. It is a good day of the year to talk to family about what it represents to the Native people here with some honesty. An opportunity to own history as it really happened. The least we can do, I believe. But, these are my personal feelings. And, yes, I do enjoy this day with family and friends, and hopefully in a more truthful manner.

I have similar feelings about Columbus Day. That is not a kind or honest holiday for Native Americans.

Sometimes I'm sorry our People ever helped the white man. Perhaps they are grateful the People didn't kill them and serve them for dinner. ( attempt at light hearted humor)

I voted for Keeping Schools neutral from Religious Holidays ..
My main Reason being that if the Public Schools allow religious Holiday observance..
The Religious parents {of any religion} will soon want Prayer involved at some point for their children..
They would be able to say "Well, why not? U allow the Holidays"..
If Christians are then granted their morning Prayer {with a rather Lame 'those that don't follow christian prayers can stay seated or work on some other project' excuse}
Which would then trigger Muslims wanting to have their kids observe their Prayers {which are 5 every day, and sometimes More if they're Orthodox, and Ramadan adds even more, never mind the Fasting part}
Followed by Jewish{high holidays + Sabbath}, Hindi, Random Pagans{Solstice, Sabbats, esbats}, Animists, Shinto, Buddhists, etc etc...

I think, if they really want the children to Observe Religious holidays in a school environment, like other Posts here..
Put them within a specific Religious Academy, can't afford it ? Homeschool them, you don't qualify? I'm sure there's a way to work it out...

I do like the thought of "General" Holiday breaks..
I don't agree with "burn-out" though..
There's plenty Boarding schools on a year-round basis with general "Breaks" to visit Family..
Some are Religious, Military, Secular etc..

People can even abuse the privilege of removing their child for whatever Religious reason, and the School that allows one, would have to allow the other...

The Amish and Old Order Mennonite have their own 'schools' and Legally, once the children reach 8th Grade, that's it, time to be Useful in their district.
So far it's worked, but that's because they stay amongst themselves willingly, and teach their Traditions in addition to sufficient Secular material to get the kids by in a constantly changing world.

While grown-ups are "Debating" prayer or not...Evolution v.s. Creationism, the kids are the ones getting the crappy end of the stick, they'll be leaving elementary more confused than some Adults.

btw, I don't celebrate "Thanksgiving" per se, I'm not fond of constantly remembering the Slaughter and stealing of Native lands...
I'd sooner celebrate when Columbus "discovered" Puerto Rico with the help of Spain...riiiight

:candle::praying:

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Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow (Post 157433)

[FONT="Georgia"]Ender,

Great post.

Not only does Canada (well, at least Ontario) have Good Friday off in schools (and is named as such) but Easter Monday as well.

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Most of the students where I am at refer to it as Christmas (not Winter) Break/Holidays/Vacation--maybe it's a regional thing.

I should have clarified, but I meant officially in schools. Teachers and professors I've had never refered to it as the Christmas holidays back in high school or in university, but as "the holidays" or "winter holidays," both while living in Toronto as well as out on the East Coast. It could differ region to region, though, like you suggest. With students I notice it can go either way, Christmas holidays or winter holidays/vacation, though even then I see it used less and less.

About the American Thanksgiving thing...it could be I'm just totally ignorant about American Thanksgiving. From what I've read, what American friends have told me (those friends are mainly from Indiana and Minnesota if that tells anyone anything) and just general media I was always under the impression that the Pilgrim origins of American Thanksgiving (which Canada does not share) is still an integral part of the way children celebrate the holiday in public schools in the US, and generally in the background of the American celebration. I could be entirely wrong, so feel free to correct me if I am since I've never actually lived in the US myself.

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Originally Posted by EnderD_503 (Post 157658)

That's odd; I always remember Easter Monday off and I just checked both our local school boards' calendars and, yep, they still have it off.

I just checked the Public Board website (although both are publicly funded, we have one RC and one Public), and the Winter Break is still listed as Christmas Break (!). I had no idea.

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Originally Posted by EnderD_503 (Post 157658)

The Easter Monday thing really makes me wonder whether or not this is a new thing. I sincerely can't remember having Easter Monday off back in highschool, middle school or elementary school (I graduated from highschool about 6 years ago with the whole double cohort fiasco, so hopefully my memory is not that bad, haha). I live in Toronto (went to school in the east-end), so not sure if that makes a difference. I was actually talking to my mother about this the other day oddly enough, and she mentioned she couldn't remember having school off on Easter Monday either (she grew up in Eastern Ontario).

I should have clarified, but I meant officially in schools. Teachers and professors I've had never refered to it as the Christmas holidays back in high school or in university, but as "the holidays" or "winter holidays," both while living in Toronto as well as out on the East Coast. It could differ region to region, though, like you suggest. With students I notice it can go either way, Christmas holidays or winter holidays/vacation, though even then I see it used less and less.

About the American Thanksgiving thing...it could be I'm just totally ignorant about American Thanksgiving. From what I've read, what American friends have told me (those friends are mainly from Indiana and Minnesota if that tells anyone anything) and just general media I was always under the impression that the Pilgrim origins of American Thanksgiving (which Canada does not share) is still an integral part of the way children celebrate the holiday in public schools in the US, and generally in the background of the American celebration. I could be entirely wrong, so feel free to correct me if I am since I've never actually lived in the US myself.

Yes, it is, however it is an affront to Native peoples. We don't celebrate, it is a sad ending to our way of life. Now don't get me wrong, we still eat, but we aren't celebrating with thanks to the white god. Those of us who retain our heritage, find other ways of giving thanks.

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Originally Posted by Bit (Post 157623)

I hate to admit it, but I have been one of those crazy's who gets up early sometimes for a great deal :|

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Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow (Post 157660)

That is so weird. Especially the Easter Monday thing. I for the life of me can't remember ever having a four day weekend over Easter, and thought it was just something they started doing a few years ago or something. I'm going to do some digging around, or else this is going to drive me absolutely insane. Maybe I can find some old calendars from univerisity lying around, too, to vouch for my sanity on the Easter Monday thing.

I'm getting hits on both Christmas Break and Winter Break on different TDSB links, oddly enough. For example here: schools.tdsb.on.ca/jarvisci/misc/calendar_SeptDec08.rtf they call it Winter Break, while others call it Christmas Break. I'm having a sneaking suspicion that this may differ from school to school.

On a side note I saw some calendars refering to what we used to call March Break as "Mid-Winter Break," is that a recent change? Sounds so odd.

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Originally Posted by AtLastHome (Post 157644)

It was specifically religious in origin. The first actual official Thanksgiving of the United States of America was declared by the Continental Congress in 1777 as a response to winning the Revolutionary War, and the proclamation begins, "FOR AS MUCH as it is the indispensable Duty of all Men to adore the superintending Providence of Almighty God; to acknowledge with Gratitude their Obligation to him for Benefits received..." It goes on in that manner for a couple paragraphs as it sets out the recommendation that all the people in the country should "consecrate themselves to the Service of their Divine Benefactor..." There's no mention of feasting, only of prayer.

What we are supposed to be celebrating with Thanksgiving (winning a war) has gotten muddled up with the Pilgrims' harvest feasts--for the Pilgrims, "Thanksgiving" celebrations didn't involve meals, but prayer and fasting; it was the harvest feast that involved a big meal--and has morphed over the past couple hundred years into a children's mythology taught in schools, the media, and churches. The actual sentiments behind George Washington's and the Continental Congress' Thanksgiving proclamations--prayerful gratitude for this country's independence--are now celebrated on the Fourth of July, but the religious trappings have fallen away from that day.

Here is a quote from the proclamation Lincoln made in 1863; we have as a nation celebrated Thanksgiving every year since. "They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and voice by the whole American people. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens."

Again no mention of feasting, only of prayer.

I personally believe there is no way to say that Thanksgiving is not a religious holiday, given the government proclamations that established it.

For anyone who is interested, a very basic intro to the history of Thanksgiving in the US is here, in Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving_(United_States)

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Originally Posted by EnderD_503 (Post 157658)

.... I was always under the impression that the Pilgrim origins of American Thanksgiving (which Canada does not share) is still an integral part of the way children celebrate the holiday in public schools in the US, and generally in the background of the American celebration. I could be entirely wrong, so feel free to correct me if I am since I've never actually lived in the US myself.

It's become part of the myth over the past couple hundred years that the Pilgrims celebrated Thanksgiving the way it's celebrated today--minus the football, of course! but with lacrosse and weaponry exhibitions--and yes, schoolchildren are inculcated with the "Pilgrims and Indians" story. It is true that in 1621 there was a harvest festival which was shared between the Pilgrims and the Wampanoag Native Americans, and that "fowl" (possibly wild turkey) was featured on the menu. It is also true that in 1622 there was a slaughter of Native Americans before the next harvest festival. It was a terrible repayment of the gift of land, food, and help which had been so freely given.

Popular culture in the US downplays this travesty and repeats the sweetly sentimental "Pilgrims and Indians Thanksgiving" myth incessantly, much to the dismay of anyone who cares about Native American peoples.

I found an amazingly beautiful reclamation of Thanksgiving by a Native American. http://www.alternet.org/story/4391/

For me, the holiday is about the gifts of Native foods--turkey, corn, sweet potatoes, white potatoes, green beans, wild rice, pumpkins, pecans, sugar cane, etc; I celebrate the bounty of this continent and the awesome gift of Native American agriculture to the world. My Thanksgiving is to those who walked these lands before me, those who guided the crops into the foods I love, those whose spirits still sing beneath my feet. My gratitude is to them.

Black friday...NOOOOOOO not me,id rather walk thrue hot coals barefoot than be caught in any retail store on that day...talk about crazies out there in masses..yikes!!