On topic. Anybody who opposes the building of this community centre has some -serious- self-examination to do.

Off topic. I -really- hate the term "melting pot". Just sayin'.

(Okay, not "just sayin'" It implies a melting away of different cultures. It implies assimilation. It implies becoming "more American". It's poopy.)

More off topic. I so dig that the Holy Trilogy got dragged into this discussion. Some of you people are such giant nerds it makes me want to lick your eyeballs.

Further off topic. Obama was right - Five Guys has the best fucking burgers in the universe. Omg.

Just to go back to the original question....

I am in favor of allowing this community center and mosque to be built. While I understand that the thought hurts many people, I believe that the only way to heal those wounds is through understanding and making connections.

As many here have pointed out "Muslims" didn't attack the WTC. Terrorists did. Big difference.

Allowing the community center to be built will give people a chance to get to know each other as individuals and as families...not as misunderstood concepts, political tools, or media scare tactics.

I attended a small grad school program with a Muslim man for two years, and was able to have many conversations about what that faith really teaches, to see him with his children and his wife, to hear how he interacted with fellow students, and to debate and converse on many occasions. Knowing him and his family did more to enhance my understanding and promote "tolerance" (I hate that word) than any media report, book, sermon, political speech...whatever.

People have to have the opportunity to get to know each other in order to understand, to accept and maybe even to embrace. This is a good first step.

I concur....and prefer to think of us as a nice salad...lots of different flavors, all tossed together. Much better as far as I'm concerned. :)

We need a "well-meaning phrases/words that rub us the wrong way" thread

Exactly. Doesn't "tolerance" basically mean "I put up with but don't understand, embrace, or even actually like _____" ?

I like Mosaic. It's pretty and you don't have to eat it.

Melting pot via its traditional definition is poopy. For me, it has always meant something different, even opposing because I see the lead pot to be the impermeable holder of customs and traditions of various cultures. Just how my first generation mind works.

I want a burger....

I want a green chile cheeseburger (the best in the world) from a local dive burger joint known as Dave's in Santa Fe NM.........if it's still open.......if not then I want the green chile cheeseburger from The Tecolate Bar in San Antonio NM (it's south of Albuquerque and birth home to Conrad Hilton and has a population of about 200 on a good day)......I so miss NM green chiles and the smell of them roasting.......

wait this is not a burger thread..........sorry........

And it begins...
 

From Talkingpointsmemo.com:


"It seems the anti-mosque protesters in California have torn a few pages from the Abu Ghraib field manual. Protesters of a planned mosque and Muslim community center in Riverside, California are calling on locals to come to a rally outside an existing mosque with their pet dogs because, as the protest organizer says, Muslims "hate dogs." "We will not be submissive," the notice proclaimed. "Our voices are going to be heard!" The alert went on to question what its authors described as Islamic beliefs. It suggested that participants sing during the rally because Muslim "women are forbidden to sing." It suggested that rally participants bring dogs because Muslims "hate dogs.""

The idea of preserving a memorial to the people who died at the WTC is a smokescreen and a convenient excuse. This is really about *Muslims* integrating into the community--nothing more, nothing less.

Cheers
Aj

Just How Far Is the "Ground Zero Mosque" From Ground Zero?
 

The "Ground Zero Mosque" that we have been and will be hearing so much about is not exactly a mosque, nor is it at Ground Zero. Here's why: you can't see Ground Zero -- the former site of the World Trade Center -- from the future site of the Cordoba House

From 45 Park Place, the former Burlington Coat Factory building that will make way for the Cordoba House, it's two blocks, around a corner, to get to the WTC site. Park Place doesn't lie between the construction site and any mass transit stations, so you would need to go out of your way to have it offend you.


When the new World Trade Center rises, you'll be able to see it from 45 Park Place, because it'll be by far the tallest thing around. The planned Cordoba House will be dwarfed. It certainly won't overlook or overshadow Ground Zero.

Why is the distance between the two sites so important? Simple accuracy, for one. It's frustrating to see so many commentators blithely disregard an obvious, physical problem with the "mosque at Ground Zero" formulation: it's not at Ground Zero.

Clyde Haberman of the New York Times further explains the significance:

There's that "at." For a two-letter word, it packs quite a wallop. It has been tossed around in a manner both cavalier and disingenuous, with an intention by some to inflame passions. Nobody, regardless of political leanings, would tolerate a mosque at ground zero. "Near" is not the same, as anyone who paid attention back in the fourth grade should know.

I understand the journalist's impulse to use the "Ground Zero Mosque" shorthand to instantly remind readers why they should care about the story. Headlines leave out qualifiers like "near" all the time for brevity's sake. But in this case the elision is critical; leaving out the "near" clearly takes sides -- against the "mosque" and against accuracy.

In addition, the building planned for 45 Park Place is a cultural center with a prayer room -- not a single-purpose house of worship for Muslims, which is probably what we should reserve the word "mosque" for. As Haberman also explains, "That it may even be called a mosque is debatable. It is designed as a multi-use complex with a space set aside for prayer -- no minarets, no muezzin calls to prayer blaring onto Park Place."

The 92nd Street Y, on which the Cordoba House is explicitly modeled, has a whole host of Jewish events take place inside of it, but no one calls it a synagogue. There's no good reason why Cordoba House should be misleadingly called a "mosque." I've been guilty of using this word too, in conversation and in writing, but it's inaccurate. Muslims already read the Quran and pray at 45 Park Place, but that does not and will not turn it into a "mosque."

There's one more catch for the opponents of the so-called Ground Zero mosque: by the same logical leap you can call the Cordoba Center a "mosque," you can also call Ground Zero as it already exists a giant, open-air mosque. Muslim prayers are already taking place right on the edge of the construction site, and not for world domination. Families are going there to pray -- for the souls of the dozens of innocent Muslim victims who died on September 11.

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/201...hewalkvert.jpg

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matt-s..._b_660585.html

Oh, how I hear you! And everytime Msdemeanor posts her same planet feeling, I am oh, so with her!

Obama makes clear support for ground zero mosque

By ERICA WERNER, Associated Press Writer Erica Werner, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 2 mins ago
WASHINGTON – After skirting the controversy for weeks, President Barack Obama is weighing in forcefully on the mosque near ground zero, saying a nation built on religious freedom must allow it.

"As a citizen, and as president, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country," Obama told an intently listening crowd gathered at the White House Friday evening to observe the Islamic holy month of Ramadan.

"That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances," he said. "This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakable."

The White House had not previously taken a stand on the mosque, which would be part of a $100 million Islamic community center two blocks from where nearly 3,000 people perished when hijacked jetliners slammed into the World Trade Center towers on Sept. 11, 2001. Press secretary Robert Gibbs had insisted it was a local matter.

It was already much more than that, sparking debate around the country as top Republicans including Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich announced their opposition. So did the Anti-Defamation League, a Jewish civil rights group.

Obama elevated it to a presidential issue Friday without equivocation.

While insisting that the place where the twin towers once stood was indeed "hallowed ground," Obama said that the proper way to honor it was to apply American values.

Harkening back to earlier times when the building of synagogues or Catholic churches also met with opposition, Obama said: "Time and again, the American people have demonstrated that we can work through these issues, and stay true to our core values and emerge stronger for it. So it must be and will be today."

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, an independent who has been a strong supporter of the mosque, welcomed Obama's words as a "clarion defense of the freedom of religion."

But some victims' advocates and Republicans were quick to pounce.

"Barack Obama has abandoned America at the place where America's heart was broken nine years ago, and where her true values were on display for all to see," said Debra Burlingame, a spokeswoman for some Sept. 11 victims' families and the sister of one of the pilots killed in the attacks.

Building the mosque at ground zero, she said, "is a deliberately provocative act that will precipitate more bloodshed in the name of Allah."

Sally Regenhard, whose firefighter son was killed at the World Trade Center, said the president had failed to understand the issue. "As an Obama supporter, I really feel that he's lost sight of the germane issue, which is not about freedom of religion," she said. "It's about a gross lack of sensitivity to the 9/11 families and to the people who were lost."

Added Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y.: "President Obama is wrong. It is insensitive and uncaring for the Muslim community to build a mosque in the shadow of ground zero."

Entering the highly charged election-year debate, Obama surely knew that his words would not only make headlines in the U.S. but be heard by Muslims worldwide. The president has made it a point to reach out to the global Muslim community, and the over 100 guests at Friday's dinner in the State Dining Room included ambassadors and officials from numerous nations where Islam is observed, including Saudi Arabia and Indonesia.

While his pronouncement concerning the mosque might find favor in the Muslim world, Obama's stance runs counter to the opinions of the majority of Americans, according to polls.

Opponents, including some Sept. 11 victims' relatives, see the prospect of a mosque so near the destroyed trade center as an insult to the memory of those killed by Islamic terrorists in the 2001 attacks

Aside: Gee, I wish Obama would express this kind of conviction for LGBT rights. I'd love to hear him say, "This is America, and our commitment to equal rights must be unshakable."

Frankly, it offends me that so many Protestant churches are producers of and havens for 'Christian' extremists. And get tax-exempt status to boot.

I said something to Di this morning about how maybe if the media stopped calling it the "ground zero mosque" it would stop being such a huge freaking deal. I mean really? How many people are going to complain about having another swimming pool to go play in?

Yes, simplistic at it's best, but taking the sensationalism out of it, and looking at what it really is, there should be no controversy at all.

If this country is going to start banning mosques, that's fine. Just make sure that we also quit building churches and synagogues and any other houses of worship. While we're at it, let's quit building religion-based hospitals and schools and businesses. And then let's tax the fuck out of all the existing ones, tax them to the point where they have to sell off all their property. Let's just get rid of every last one of them.